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Hey thereon Welcome Back.

It's the Book of Joe Podcast with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden.

Joe, it was bound to happen and hit other sports, but we need to talk about gambling in baseball.

With the arrests of Cleveland pitchers Louis Ortiz and Emmanuel Class, this is really interesting because it seems like tip of the iceberg here and hopefully that it's not.

But first of all, Joe, I know you've been in the dugout.

It's been a point of contention for clubs for years to inform players of the dudes and the don'ts, mostly don'ts about gambling.

What is different now you think about the culture of gambling and why it's a concern across all sports.

It's ubiquitous.

I mean, it's it's everywhere.

Like I could just pick up my phone right here if I chose to, and I could make a bet.

At least that there was a time you had to work to make a bet a little bit.

You had to go to a local bar room, go to the back room, go see Rocky, hang out, have a cheese steak Holgi with maybe a glass of Yangling and you make a bet.

But nowadays you could just pick up your phone.

I don't, I honestly don't get it.

I really don't.

I know everybody the government's stayed in local, federal, they're all primarily stay local.

They're trying to create revenue through this, through having people gamble away money that they can afford to do.

I mean, there's certain people that could afford to lose, and there's probably I don't even know what the percentages that cannot afford to lose, and it's heavy.

So I've not against it.

I've been against it from the beginning.

I can't believe that we advertise it.

It's like it's like when you watch the nightly news at six thirty whatever.

And I used to watch that often and now I get my new sources elsewhere, but we're always advertising illness.

I mean, for that half hour that are always about your ill and take this drug because or because it's going to make you feel better, or just they create a list of symptoms that you got, oh that's me, and then eventually you got to go to your doctor.

You get this pill and all of a sudden you know, you're taking stuff you really shouldn't be taken.

So we're advertising illness, we're advertising betting, we're advertising so many things that are really not right.

I don't get it.

And now what do you expect?

Was it this?

Like talked about a lot as you're going to permit betting and now we're talking about permitting a casino near what city field in New York?

Right or they're trying or whatever.

Yeah, So but there's it's it's just makes zero sense.

Every spring training you have to read that big, long piece of litigation regarding not gambling on baseball, not gambling on baseball and sports in general, and it just goes on deaf ears.

I mean, there was a time I think it could be a little bit more scary, but in today's culture, nothing scarce.

We've made everything too easy to doomed.

It's the downgrading of deviant behavior that's becoming absolutely normalized.

So blessed, I have expected it.

It's gonna keep getting worse.

I don't get it.

We're the grown ups and it's all about money, and I don't I'm not into it.

That's all well said, and I completely agree with you, Joe that we have become a society of convenience, and that includes the abnormal that we're making more convenient.

Not only convenient, but addictive.

We know that gambling is addictive, and with technology now at your fingertips, you're talking about systems that are designed to make gambling addictive.

They will tail our bet props to you based on your betting patterns.

They will start feeding you more money in your account to.

Keep you going.

It's just crazy that this is all happening in it in plain daylight, really, and people are getting too deep now.

I know a lot of the conversation Joe is about how could someone like Emmanuel class And by the way, the agents for both players have denied charges here, so we'll see how it plays out in a court of law.

But Class A is a guy working under a twenty million dollar contract.

He also had an option for twenty seven and twenty eight at another eighteen million dollars.

And we're talking about betting pattern here that was going on for two years, two years in which he and these associates cleared four hundred and fifty thousand dollars over two years.

So I know a lot of the reaction was why is a guy.

Now you know, making five six million dollars a year dabbling in two thousand dollars prop bets.

The answer to the question is, and you touched on this, Joe, it's too easy.

Oh he thought it was anyway until he got caught.

It's these micro bets, these prop bets.

So it wasn't like these pitchers, according to the indictment, we're saying I'm going to bet against my team to win or lose.

No, what they're doing is they're betting on, say, the first pitch of an inning being below a certain mile per hour or being a ball.

Or a strike.

And I'm sure the player, the athlete, and this applies to other sports as well as thinking I'm not shaving games, I'm not shaving points, I'm not throwing games.

This is very harmless.

And my buddies can earn a buck or two here, even more than that.

So Classe gets to the mound and he's going to say, you know what, the prop bet here is my first pitch is going to be below ninety eight miles an hour.

I'll just throw a slider, or the prop bet is baller strike first pitch.

I'll just throw a slider and make sure that I bounce it.

There was actually one circumstance where Andy Pie has the Dodgers, was the pitcher the prop bet or the batter.

The prop bet was baller strike first pitch, so he intention they throws a slider in the dirt and Pots swings at it.

So they lost that bet.

But people need to understand that these micro bets are a big part of the problem.

You can bet on virtually anything, and in this case, they're thinking.

You know what, no one's going to know.

Well, you know what, given the algorithms today, Joe, that that you know, these betting companies have, they will find anomalous patterns.

So when they see a ton of money on, say the first pitch of a Cleveland game in the in the eighth inning, they're like, what's going on here?

And you just kind of follow the data in terms of betting patterns.

So I'm glad baseball has come out and with the cooperation of the betting companies, Joe, they said basically, no more bets of more than two hundred dollars on these pitch level bets, you know, plus or minus the miles barrow or ball or strike that's a start and I think as they found out and they got in bed with these gambling companies, that there are unintended consequence and they're just finding it out.

So I think the idea of capping those bets at two hundred, to me, I think they shouldn't even be legal.

You just get rid of a period.

And I know the governor of Ohio has argued for that, but at least this is a step forward.

Wow, so much right there?

Where does it start?

Guys that are making that much money feeling compelled to do something like this?

Is it a thrill component?

Is there a power involved?

Are they, like you said, I think you insinuated?

Are they trying to take care of friends?

In other words, tell somebody, a family member, whatever, if you bet here, you have a pretty good chance of winning a lot of money based on what I'm going to do.

Or not do.

All this stuff is really brutal.

It's disgusting.

I don't like any of it.

To even think, Okay, now we're going to rationalize this and put a cap on the amount of money bet on me.

That is ridiculous.

It's just so wrong on so many different levels.

And to think that, to think that you didn't think that all this stuff was going to lead you down the wrong path at some point is crazy.

They had to have had these conversations.

They had to like almost like decide how much are we going to be able to absorb or want to absorb before we have to make changes to all this.

We just let it go until something happens that will make the alterations.

Honestly, I don't get it.

I I've said that from Jump Street.

It makes zero sense to me that all of a sudden, now you go back to the Black Sox scandal and you go to mister Rose and you do everything else that we've done.

Jack Molinas in basketball, what was at NYU back in the day.

He actually played basketball in Hazelton when I was a kid for the Hazelton Hawks.

I mean, all these things have gone on fears, but now it's becoming easy.

And as it becomes easier to do these things.

And then at last point, you say, you know, talked about the salary that they're making.

But then again, who knows how they've invested their money and who knows how much that they needed a quick hit to make something good or to make something good and not necessarily jump into this big pile of money that's being invested, which would become more obvious.

There's so many different reasons and layers, and it's kind of a novel waiting to be written by Nelson demil Man.

It's just not good.

Stop You're not going to stop it.

I understand that.

I mean, and I'm just like I said, I look at players, former players that now do commercials for this stuff.

Wow, I really, I don't even see why that's legal to permit, even like athlete's even former athletes that are now somehow involved in the sport.

How are they even able or capable or permit it to advertise for this stuff.

Doesn't that somehow make them accessories in some way in regards to if this does go sideways, I don't get it.

I don't get it.

I'm glad you brought that up, Joe.

It bothers me as well, because to me, it's no different than saying, signing an endorsement deal for cigarettes smoking cigarettes, right, you are promoting something that's really not healthy for the general public and in fact, can really destroy a lot of people.

There are some point, especially some of these athletes who have made a lot of money, and I know that's sort of besides, it's the point, but it is part of the equation here.

Do you really need it to get in bed with something like that just because someone comes to you with an offer and it's easy money, and you film a couple of commercials and you make a couple of appearances.

Think about what you're doing here and what you're promoting.

Because I can tell you this, Joe, I'm not sure if you've noticed this.

And I know a society in general has become less civil.

We know that, and partly that is just social media and just the turn of venom and negativity.

But I've noticed around ballparks, and I can't speak to other sports.

I'm not in other stadiums and arenas, but in baseball, the crowds have gotten nastier and you talk to players and it totally is true.

And I'm telling you that gambling is a part of the equation.

I'm not saying it's the only thing, because again, people are able to vent their frustrations and their anger and amplified on social media.

I get that.

But now you go to a baseball game and you legally have money riding on that game, that player, that performance, and when it doesn't turn your way.

You've lost money.

Now it's not just your favorite team lost the game, but your heart earned dough has gotten down the tube.

And I've seen that in terms of just the anger that people and I've heard players talk about this as well too, directed at them, whether it's their fantasy team or especially you know, placing a prop bet, whatever it may be.

There's a residual cost to this.

It's not just oh, you lost a couple of shekels.

It's a downgrading of our society and civilness.

No doubt.

You're describing there as winter ball as it used to or used to exist anyway.

I haven't been there in a while, but that was a big part of the culture there, gambling in the stands and a lot of the booming that would ensue, like when when somebody lost the bet because of a lack of performance or somebody wont to bet because of performance.

But you're talking about this.

This cocktail that we've been brewing, and it's a combination.

You take social media where it is right now and again the ease with which amateurs are controlling professionals in so many different ways, and you combine that will legalize legalized gambling.

That's another thing.

I legalize gambling.

What's gambling?

Now we're going to say it's legal or illegal.

So when we start placing like different descriptive words in front of different other words, it's like, really, you're going to get in bed like legal gambling.

So social media plus legal gambling equals a recipe for disaster.

That's the cocktail I don't want to drink from.

And yes, whether you're a manager, a player, a coach, possibly whatever just involves somehow when it goes sideways and it's not in your favor and people start losing bets and money, especially when they can't afford to Wow, it's just something really awful is going to happen.

It just it has to.

And that's the sadness about how we react to things here in our world, in our society, is that you wait until it gets really really bad or something catastrophic occurs, and then all of a sudden, everybody comes rushing to the forefront and you got to start changing roles and you start pointing things out.

Every starts pointing fingers.

Everybody becomes like the reason why the culpable the part of this movement here and and then it's so obvious.

It's like, oh, really, you didn't notice that happening, that that that wasn't going to happen at some point.

Well, I I I'd love to see somehow the breaks put on this.

I don't see how it's going to be put on this, but it's it's not good and it's just going to get worse.

Well, you're right about that, because this is going to be a game of whack a mole.

I mean, we're not sure where the next controversy legal issue is.

Going to come up, but it's going to come.

As you mentioned, your point is it's ubilulous, it's easy, and as far as the temptations for people involved in the competition, whether it's managers, umpires, referees, coaches, you name it, information is the coin of the realm and they have access to information.

And I'm not sure what the next scandal is going to be, but it's coming.

It's going to keep coming.

And the other thing Joe I kind of worry about is now that you're talking about now a generation growing up without those sort of hurdles you mentioned when you had to bet before it took effort.

You have to do it on the sly.

It's so easy now that people are indoctrinated now at an easy age, and I would be concerned that that is my entry gate for fandom, that people are getting into these sports now just on the gambling component alone.

Not that you love the.

Sport or your favorite team or your favorite player, but it's a way to, I guess, enjoy the concept of gambling, that that is your entry into it.

I would worry about that if I were sports, that that is the hook for people getting involved in my sport.

Hundred percent, you know, one hundred percent correct.

I mean I've been thinking about that also.

Why you know, you talk to everybody's talking about the uptick in you know, the baseball interest this past year.

Why i'd want to believe that it was we saw a World Series and I just you know, play golf, I go to the I go to ava a restaurant, I hang out, and which you think about that World Series?

That was great.

It was great, It was very entertaining, it was good.

It was good for baseball.

And I think the part about that that hasn't been spoken about it because it was one of the more extemporaneous seven game series you've seen more recently, where.

The plan blew up a lot.

You know, the managers really had to manage, and I think you saw real baseball being brought to the forefront outside of the you know, the constant scream from the bullpen to the mound, and the kind of like the spring training method of playing World Series baseball.

Other than that, though, I mean, but part of that was the fact that managers really had to be nimble during this series.

And then you talk about over usage, which god, I mean, you got crucified for that several years ago, but now it's just part of the landscape where guys are pitching nearly every game, every day for the whole time they're in the playoffs.

So that, to me was the most interesting part about the World Series was that it was the next temporaneous World Series where it was kind of old school, and I really enjoyed it for that, where the planning was done before the game.

You saw how plans blew up, and then you saw how people had to react, and I thought that was great.

But back to your original point, why is it becoming more popular?

There's no question gambling has led to the popularity, So thus does that make it good color has made led to the popularity uniforms and no longer uniforms.

Listen, I used to wear white shoes when I was a kid playing high school football, even though everybody else is wearing black.

I get it.

I did some screwy things.

My hair was long at a time when it was supposed to be short.

But to what extent do you permit all of this?

So uniform is no longer uniform Backflip's history.

Onic celebration constant celebration is part of it.

I mean, what is the lure here?

Because the lure I don't know that is fundamental, really clean, good baseball.

Although, like I said, I think part of why people enjoyed all of this World Series, but there was a lot of that.

There was a lot of drama, man, and teams didn't quit, and both sides kept fighting back.

And you had one team that.

Actually played better baseball losing the World Series, whereas the one with the veteran kind of a group that never lost their pois or confidence took advantage of really some breaks, but to their credit, they took advantage of them.

So there was a lot going on there.

But I think I'd be concerned, Like the House of cards.

What is really going on here?

Where's the popularity base?

Is it rooted in baseball or is it rooted in other items?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I'm going to be Pollyannis here and I want to believe that it was the baseball because I've had more people come up to me and say they began rooting for the Toronto Blue Jays throughout the World Series.

They're not Blue Jays fans, but they love the way that Toronto Blue Jays played baseball.

There was something infectious about the way Toronto played.

Now they're going up against the team with the big payroll.

I get it that's part of it too, people like the underdog.

But I truly believe it was because if you sat down to watch these games and you're a casual fan, the Toronto Blue Jays hooked you because they were putting the ball in play.

You weren't sitting there watching swing and miss after swing and miss and pop up after pop up.

You were watching great defensive plays, interesting players in the base running.

Sometimes it wasn't very smart, but it was at least interesting.

But I think that Toronto Blue Jays were the best thing that happened to baseball for a while, and as Isaiah kind of Felefa told me, we're trying to change baseball.

In other words, they're trying to bring it back to where it was twenty thirty years ago with the ball and play.

I want to believe Joe that maybe that's a window for the way forward for this game that I realized not every team is going to play that way.

I still go back to the fact now six straight years the world champion has finished in the top four in home runs, and you look at how the Dodgers won the World Series, home runs had a lot to do with it, if not more than any other element.

But I do believe I just from the feedback guy got Joe that people enjoyed watching this World Series because it was pacedway well and because of the way Toronto played it.

Yeah, pitchclock, no ghost runner.

Like I said, I'd still like to see some of these new rules pulled back, the three batter minimum, those kind of things.

They don't need them.

With the pitchclock, which is the superstar of all alterations made in almost any sport when it comes to rules over the last several years, that's the superstar.

That's where the and you use the word pace.

The fact that happening happening, things are happening constantly.

That is the superstar of all changes, whether it's basketball, football, baseball, whatever.

So I love that part about it.

But you said, and that's great, and I would want I would hope that's the reason why people may be reattracted to the game would be because God, they played We saw a baseball game.

They played baseball.

They played baseball, well, the whole game, the full game was on display right there, and that is wonderful.

Now, the thing is, and I'm watching the Blue Jays and I'm watching what they may lose, and you saw everything went right for than this year.

It's gonna be hard for them to repeat that next.

I know, I hear all these different things about with favors and all this kind of.

Stuff, but a lot of things broke well for them too.

So I'm curious to see based on whatever I don't even know what they're from minor leagues look like.

But it's gonna be hard for them to replicate that last point.

Money equals power and power equals money.

The fact that these these top teams are home run hitters because they got money, they could you know, they could.

They could attract and and and keep and and acquire people that have power, whether it's pitching power or power at the plate, and it and it goes both ways.

And if you have the power, that's gonna eventually create more money because you're gonna be successful and all of a sudden you're the World Series champs.

So that's never gonna change.

That's that's probably the same everywhere we go.

That money equals power and power equals money, and that's what we're seeing.

But but in the meantime.

If everybody's not capable, like we've talked about this, are able to spend that kind of dough for all those different bills and whistles that you want or need to win a World Series, that's where, like you just said, they played baseball great, the Blue Jays did, and that's to me, that's what you got to do.

If in fact, you're not one of the power brokers with all that do and you can't attract the different pictures from the Japanese pitchers, and you can't attract O Twani, and you can't keep Freddie Freeman and Bets on the same team for a period of time.

If you can't do that.

You got to look for an alternative method.

Yeah, and don't be surprised if Kyle Tucker winds up with the Los Angeles Dodgers.

To your point, Yeah, they can actually sign him without adding to their payroll.

He's probably a forty million dollars a year plus player and they have that much coming off the payroll.

And he looked at their outfield in Game seven of the World Series with Kei y Hernandez, Tommy Edmund and Taoscar Hernandez.

They actually do need another bat.

And it wouldn't shock me if Kyle Tucker.

I don't know why he wouldn't go there.

We're gonna pay him.

He's in a great lineup.

He doesn't have to be the guy to be the fulcrum of attention and responsibility.

That's a matchup I think probably will happened.

We're going to take a break, Joe.

I can't wait to get your thought on another trend that's happening in baseball when it comes to managing, it seems like no.

Experience is necessary.

Talked about that right after this.

Welcome back to the Book of Joe.

I'm sure you saw Joe that San Diego Padres have a fourth new manager in the last six years, and it's Craig Stamon, a guy who's a middle reliever as a player.

Now, he's been an advisor to gm AJ Preller in San Diego for a while.

He knows everybody in that clubhouse.

He knows the systems there really well.

But he's never coached or managed.

So this is a middle reliever who's going to manage a team that's expected to be a contender.

It's outside the box.

Now.

We saw thirty three year old Blake but Terra.

Hired by the Washington Nationals, basically came out of the Ray's minor league system.

Kurtz Zuki with the Angels over and over again.

Now we're seeing players, coaches, advisors, whatever they are elevated to the manager's job really quickly.

Now, if you want a template, it's hard to argue against the guy like Steven Vote one year of coaching in the Seattle Mariners bullpen before he became The Guardian's manager.

He's done a terrific job.

You know, he was just one of those guys I thought you looked at right away, even when he was playing.

You said that dude's going to be a manager.

So I want to get your take, Joe, because for me, we talked about Tony Vatelo being hired out of Tennessee.

I'm not against this as just a blanket position, like, oh, you've got to earn your way up, you got to pay your dues.

I think there's, as you know, Joe better than anybody, there's so much information and there's so many hands in the kitchen helping prepare the meal that running the show yourself doesn't happen.

So there's all kinds of now run prevention and run production, peeple assistant coaches, strategists.

You name it.

There's all kinds of different titles now that I think the number one quality now for a manager is leadership.

It's an old school word, I get it.

But Craig Stammon is a guy who knows everybody in that clubhouse and they do have respect for him, so he does start with that.

So I'm not ruling out these guys without experience.

I'm not one to say, well, what about all those guys managing TRIPAA for the last ten years and they're not getting their shot.

I feel for them, believe me.

But if you're a leader and you show that I don't have a problem with some of these hires just on the fact that they don't have experience.

Yeah, well, as you're going through all that, and you're right on the money as usual, I'm jotting down certain qualities in life.

I think through the years have become kind of archaic.

I think experience is almost arriving at the archaic point.

I think wisdom has been downgraded, and I think Field there's probably the one that really has been kicked off the side of the boat already.

These things have become archaic meeting they're not necessary, and I think the more we rely on math, where I a AI is taking over, that really renders a lot of these human qualities as being useless, not necessary, as maybe not necessarily useless, because like I said, I think in this World series, you saw where David and John had to really push themselves to like really rely on their o, their history, their their baseball experience.

They get through different moments, but overall, I think the way the world is trending, and not just baseball, these are kind of qualities that nobody's looking for anymore, and they don't really want them.

You're talking about vote Voter.

I'll tell you this for sure.

I had Steven.

I had Voter when he started out, when Voter was just a minor league player.

And.

He was really in the meetings of this guy's an a ball guy.

Tops he can hit a little bit, he can't.

I mean, I'm telling you all this because I didn't know this, because this was what I was being told.

But whenever we needed somebody to come over to the big league team to fill a spot during the spring training game, we would ask for Voter.

Voter would come over, put him out in front of everybody.

He'd tell a joker to and he had this really ingratiating personality.

So it's really obvious from the beginning.

Yeah, he could lead based on his personality, great listener, and tremendous sense of humor.

Different cat leadership today, I don't even know.

Again, we've talked about this.

What is leadership today and what does that mean?

I think a lot of it has to do with pr and media ability.

Guys that really speak well could handle themselves front of a microphone and a group.

I think that is where we're terming his leadership anymore.

That's become really popular.

I mean, think about the old guard of managers, and even like you can even go to Belichick.

I guess he's a great leader, right, but really not a very good communicator publicly, Geene Mock.

You know, they disdain they hated the microphone there, And I could go through a whole bunch of different dudes that were considered great managers that didn't like all that stuff.

But their leadership came from their their knowledge, their their experience, their feel for the game, their wisdom.

That's what was really considered necessary at one point, where today it's like void, you don't need this.

We have artificial intelligence, we have all this math.

All we need you to do is speak well.

And like you're kind of suggesting keep this clubhouse in order, and I don't even know what that means.

I don't know if that's acquiescence to what the group wants necessary?

Is that necessarily going in there and trying to enact what you perceive to be teaching these guys the right way to act?

What does it mean to be a pro and how do you remain a pro?

Or are you constantly catering to their needs?

So that's what I don't know.

So anyway, the endgame, what is the endgame with all this.

I'm not quite sure, but right now it's not just baseball.

Man.

You just elected a mayor in New York City.

That's what, thirty some years old, and then his right hand person she's I think thirty four years old.

I mean experience in all the years of failure are not important anymore in regards to all this stuff.

And I think social media has a lot to do with this.

It does.

I'm not making a determination good or bad, but all these things are a part of where we have arrived at at this particular moment, and we'll say what's good or bad as you'll only know how good they are when they're thrust into situations when things go sideways, when things go poorly.

Right now, this is all honeymoon stuff, and so we'll see.

Yeah.

A couple to follow up on your points there.

On leadership, you're right, I think running the clubhouse is super important, especially with superstar players.

What that means, I'm not sure, other than that you better have the confidence of that superstar player because if he don't, he can poison other players against the manager.

The other thing on leadership, to me now, Joe is managing up, not just managing superstar players, but managing up to the front office.

That's a skill set that has probably job number one Stammond's got that He's worked with Aj Pereller, worked with ownership, been in all those meetings.

Very comfortable for them to hire someone who already knows the systems and knows them on the upper management level.

That's super important experience.

You're absolutely right, Joe.

I always tell people all the time, is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Right.

The knowledge you can get on Wikipedia, you can get on AI.

Wisdom you can get only with the passage of time and being put in certain situations, especially uncomfortable ones, where you come out the other side with something you never had before.

And you're right.

We saw that in the World Series.

Both John Snyder and Dave Roberts I thought were great, and John was very honest and telling me that he wasn't that way when he first started out.

He was trying to manage to please other people, and he realized, I have to be myself, and he was the best manager he's ever been this year because he was honest with himself about doing it his way.

That's why I like it.

For instance, what Washington has done with Utera there at thirty three years old.

His bench coach has got named Michael John's.

He's fifty years old.

He's had more than two decades in baseball.

He's a minor league manager for nine years.

Is that the major leagues?

No, But dude's a baseball lifer in his fifties who's been there, done that.

So I like the idea, if you're going to hire these guys without experience, make sure you've got a right hand man, woman, whoever next to him in the dugout, who has been there, done that.

So I don't discount experience and wisdom when it comes to hiring that manager, but you know, I need to have it in my staff.

I can't just go all you know, first timers out there running things and living with their mistakes.

First of all, Michael Johnson hit a two iron, he crashes it off the tee.

I know him, I play golf with him.

He's good, very strong guy.

Obviously, I guess the same page is always good.

I mean meaning that hiring proller, hiring somebody that he's comfortable with, that's that's obviously a good thing, or a shared philosophy that's a good thing, but I always I always want a contrarian or two around.

Perfect example, when I was with the Angels and I got there, and when Sosh took over, he brought in a lot of his former teammates, including ron Rennicky, who became a very good major league manager.

Raggs was a contrarian and in all the best possible ways, only because he's a brilliant baseball mind, and he would challenge you constantly, or challenge anybody.

Our meetings were raucous.

I'm telling you me.

Buddy Black Pepe, Mickey Hatcher, Primo, Alfredo Rags, that's Ronnie Rennicky, and of course Sosia himself.

My god, I mean, be prepared.

It's it's like sitting at the dinner table with Uncle Rick back in the day.

My uncle Rick was a doctor and he would challenge everybody sitting at that dinner table every night, and you better be prepared to defend your position.

Or having Bob Elucid at that of the table, Bob clear, that's what you need.

See I don't see that enough.

I mean, I know that's not it's true, because you know, my last couple of years, even with the Cubs, and then with the Angels, that contrarian opinion is not there.

It's always everybody's acquiescent.

Everybody's always in agreement.

And if you are a contrary in a belief system, that only occurs at the water cooler.

In other words, if I disagree with whomever and you're in the same room there and any other questions, any other comments, nobody says.

Anything, you walk out.

Then immediately I find tommy Erducci and I say, listen, I don't agree with this at all, but it's the water cooler moment.

Whereas it should have been said in the room.

I want a room that says it right here, right now.

Tell me straight up, you do with respect.

You don't call anybody an idiot.

I mean, you know, you know it's not pugilistic, but it has to be like verbally pugilistic.

It's an argument on thoughts and ideas and beliefs.

It's necessary to be great.

And I don't think a lot of these places get that because everybody's afraid.

And I would, really, I mean, that would be like the first thing I did when he Stephen run the minor leagues for the angel in the eighties, and I have like Johnnie McNamara sitting out there, and Bobby Gritch sitting out there, and Dave Garcia sitting out there, all these former major league guys, and I'm like, I don't know, thirty years old, I'm at the age of these guys, and I'm running the minor league system, and I'm putting my stuff out there, and I got to be able to defend what I'm saying in front of these dudes, because these guys are definitely not going to tell you what you want to hear.

So that's the part that I don't know that's paid enough attention to.

I don't think it's valued anymore because everybody wants acquiescence.

Nobody wants the real important contrarian just to stir it up a bit, to make sure that we're not missing anything and that we're not just permitting the power to go into this one area.

Listen, just because you're the head guy doesn't mean you're really good at what you do.

Trust me so well said, I'm glad you brought that up.

It made me think of two things.

Number One, Ragga's got himself another ring, and I'm sure he's doing the same thing with the Dodgers.

Yeah, you know, he's not a guy who's gonna, you know, own the room, but he's gonna speak up if he sees something.

And I think his wisdom means a lot to the LA Dodgers.

And then you made me think of Zim with Joe Tory.

Was there any better combination than that?

And Zim would always bring up things in the course of a game that hey, you think about starting the runner here, Hey who you got in the bullpen coming up next?

And sometimes Joe would say, no, this is what I'm doing.

But he made Joe Tory think outside the box and maybe think of things that maybe didn't come to his mind.

And they had such a great relationship that you can be a contrarian without any kind of cost of personal cost, like I can't believe this guy's going against me, Like it's it's something that I guess some guys don't want.

But that's a.

Healthy relationship and a working relationship and a dugout Joe.

Finally, let's get to this is Awards week, by the way, and the big one's coming up Thursday, the American League MVP.

I want to know who you between Cal Rawley and Aaron Judge, because I've been all over Judge as the MVP, because when you break down the actual numbers, they're actually not that close.

I know that that Cal had more home runs and more RBIs, I get that, folks, But when you look at everything across the board, we never had a hitter who won the batting title and he wanted to buy a lot.

By the way, he was what more than twenty points ahead of everybody else in baseball with batting average, who also had fifty three home runs, the most home runs ever buy a batting champion.

So but then I watched Cal in the postseason man and actually watching him play every day for the Mariners, taking foul balls and running mound visits and running the game, and you know, he caught more innings than anybody in the American League this year.

I started to truly value what people were talking about.

Not that I didn't appreciate it, but I a deeper appreciation for what he does on a daily basis.

It's a great debate.

It's going to continue once the announcement is made Thursday night.

I think Aaron Judge is going to win.

I'm not sure of that, but I think the voters are going to go with the guy with the better numbers across the board.

Give me your take, Joe on who you got Aaron Judge cal Raley.

Yeah, and first of all, the voting's done before the postseason, correct, That's all right, But I brought that up.

Yeah, what are we voting on?

What is?

What are we voting on?

The best numbers, the most impactful guy for the team during the course of the season, the.

Most complete game.

What are you voting for?

If it's just based on numbers, You're probably right.

I think overarching Judge woulout do rally in some ways with that.

Obviously, the on base and everything else was ridiculous.

And again, but then again take just take out the intentional walk sometimes I would be curious.

I don't even know what that does with the numbers overall.

But I just just but.

I'm sure Raley received his royal treatments on occasion too.

But I don't know if I'm biased.

I think I am, having played the position and to do what Rawley did offensively and those numbers that he put up there offensively and squat back there all year like he did, and all the work that he did.

Before the game.

The way he split his time, and the depth with which this team went into the postseason, and again I know postseason doesn't count, but all of those things into consideration.

As a baseball player, what he did there that's really not just unusual, it's never happened.

I don't think right everything that he had done, and you could almost like talk about, you know how we talk about showhy doing things that have never been done, and judges numbers are spectacular, but I think they've kind of been done, especially from an outfield.

He's been hurt a little bit, you know, he came back slowly partial DH.

I'm not blaming him for being hurt.

But I think overall Rawley's performance as a catcher, if you've ever played the position, what he did not only on gott numerically, but to play every day, to stay healthy, to play with the enthusiasm that he does, the importance of the game, the amount of work he does before the game, the way he impacts it during the game.

There's no real equation, there's no mathematical equation.

I'd never learned that one in algebra algebra three trig which I was really bad at.

So I just think Rawley, if you could put it all together, and if you really wanted to break it down, I give him a slight edge over Judge.

Yeah, you think about last year, Bobby Witt Junior had one of the greatest offensive seasons ever for a shortstop, didn't win the MVP.

Cal Rawley to me had the greatest offensive season ever for a catcher.

I'm probably all around because he is a premier defender as well, and he might not win the MVP.

It just goes to show you that Aaron Judge is this generation's babe Ruth.

I mean, he's that far out in front in terms of being and I can't even say just the slugger anymore, Joe.

He's just a great hitter who is head and shoulders above really everybody else for this run that he's on for these years, not just twenty twenty five.

I think it's gonna be a close vote.

As I said, I think, knowing what I know about voters and what you just said about numbers across the board, if it becomes a math exercise, a Judge is gonna win.

Absolutely.

There's I'm appealing to the non mathematical part of anybody's brain right now.

I'm just learning to on the human side a little bit, but the other part, and I still believe there's there's the East Coast bias.

There's no question, not everybody saw Raley do all this stuff all year except for videos a lot of time.

I mean there's that, and I mean Aaron Judge is he's wonderful, what a great guy, and so it is Rawleigh.

But I actually had conversation with Aaron Judge, is.

All of that.

He should be the captain, he should be the face of the Yankees, he should be almost the face of baseball, which he is with show.

Hey, I think there's you know, simultaneously, if they could do like a two headed poster, you'd have both guys back to back.

Somehow they are and that's he deserves it, He's earned it.

He is all of that.

But I mean, I guess my bias is based on the fact that I've done some of what Rawley did.

Listen not trusts me what he did, like I said, playing every day to that level at that position and then take it over to the offensive side.

That's the part that to me is the tipping point and why I would put him over the top.

Hey, we're going to take a quick break on the Book of Joe.

When we get back, we need to talk about a certain pitcher who was announcing his retirement, and I cannot wait to hear how Joe Madden celebrates the end of Kyle Hendricks's career.

We'll do that.

Pray happiness, Welcome back to the Book of Joe.

Kyle Hendricks is calling it a career after three hundred and one starts on the major league level.

One five and ninety one is his record.

But of course he's going to be remembered, as you know, one of the most consequential Cubs pitchers of all time.

And he did it in such.

A way, you know, with humility and class and a master of changing speeds.

I'm not sure I've ever seen anybody who can do so many things with a change up in terms of a guy as a hitter, knowing it's coming but not really sure which way it's going to break and at what speed.

It's just a.

Master at manipulating the baseball and making it do what he wants.

Here's a note for you, Joe on Kyle Hendricks in his last season pitching for the Angels.

He's from southern California, so some way he was going back home.

He allowed the lowest exit velocity in baseball.

He was tied with Hunter Brown and Trek Skubell, two Cy Young Award finalists, for the lowest average exit velocity.

In other words, at the end of his career, Kyle Hendricks was still fooling hitters and moving the ball off the barrel of the bat.

Just an amazing pitcher.

And of course, Joe, I'm sure like the rest of us, you probably think immediately about twenty sixteen and what he did in the postseason through eleven innings in the World Series with is one earned run at one point four to two eer throughout that postseason.

So Flora is yours, Joe, Kyle Hendrix, knowing that he's his major league career is over, what comes to your mind?

We really laid it up pretty well there.

First of all, this guy is quality at Dartmouth boy Huntingdon Beach.

What a great conversation that you talk about, the consummate team player.

On top of all that, I mean, there was times, you know, in the National League game, I had to take him out of the game, maybe going into the sixth inning, and it's won nothing because as that bat came up in a crucial moment.

Okay, I got it.

You know, he didn't like it, he never liked it, but he was class see about it, and he did what he what you're supposed to do in that moment.

And so first of all, you have to understand this guy.

The word class I think is thrown around way too easily, way too often, and it should be reserved really for special people.

Kyle's a special person.

I love the fact that you talk about the ex adilo.

That was a big part of our twenty sixteen season.

And that's the part where when you want, if you want.

Your defense to play big, get pitchers that don't let the other team hit the ball hard.

That's where defense plays big.

So when you reduce sex of velocities off the other team, your shortstop gets greater range, your second basemen, everybody gets greater range.

And that's what he did.

I mean, we played our.

Butts off on defense when this guy pitched.

And just because we're talking about the ball is never squared up.

It was hard to square him up.

It almost looks like a whiffle ball from the side.

And I'm going to make a prediction right now.

I this guy is a good golfer, so he's going to go play a lot of golf.

Good golfer, but he'd be the perfect guy for somebody to talk to, like a real contending team for next year going into the season, almost like what the a Phillies did with Robertson coming back as relief pitcher Late, who actually saw him at a tunnel the Towers Golf tournament earlier this year before he ends up pitching for the a Phillies Late.

I think, Kyle, if I'm a contending team into next year, maybe the Dodgers, I would speak to him now going into this offseason at some point, putting that in the back of his mind if he would consider doing something like that, because that would be the perfect scenario for him, I think, and I wouldn't run away from that if he was open to it.

Kyle Hendrix, I look at the gun first inning.

Sometimes I'd see eighty four on his fast and go okay, because because because it was like when it got to be eighty four, there wasn't a big difference between that and his change in velocity wise, and that would be concerned if I saw eighty six, eighty seven, eighty eight, I was really having.

A nice game.

This is gonna be nice because there's that discrepancy between fastball and change up.

The other thing about him, I've never seen so many hitters take a called strike against the pitcher and like, look the off balance and never argue it.

I mean that come back two seamer that he threw outside edge to righty's that would come back, or the inside front hip guide to the to the lefties take it.

They would just take it like a man, never argue.

The umpire has got it right.

They know he's coming and they would still be surprised by it.

He was just He's just a different cat.

Wonderful.

Like I said, wonderful dude.

But if I'm I don't know again, the Dodgers or somebody like even maybe the Padres, I don't know, somebody in that and particularly in that neck of the wood San Francisco.

If you think you're going to be in it at the end of next year, talk to this guy.

Now.

That is a great idea.

I had not thought of that, but he made me think of Pedro Martinez in two thousand and nine with the Phillies wound up pitching.

The World Series for him.

Tell me what you remember, Joe about one of the most important games in Cubs history that Kyle pitched, the clinching National League Pentic coaching game against the LA Dodgers.

He took the ball into the eighth inning, allowed two hits, no runs, no walks, and six strikeouts.

As a manager, that was like the most privileged game I've I think I've ever been involved in.

We played, I mean, as close to a perfect baseball game as can be played.

We did the Cubs and then with him, I mean that was against Kershaw, I believe right and in he he being Kyle is unflappable.

He just is.

I don't care what the moment is, what's going on around him.

He's always the same dude.

So you don't you don't even worry about that is there's never going to be this moment that gets too quick for him.

He'll always be able to rein it in.

So the point about that game for me, was such a big game for us in the history of the the Cubbies, is that he was he was Kyle.

He was the same.

It's no different than that night he had a no hitter going in Saint Louis into the ninth inning, where I had to get Chapman up real quick and then I get kicked out of the game.

By Joe West.

I mean when Kyle Hendricks gets on a on a run and that thing is working, and you see these bat takes by the hitters and just like talking about the weak contact because it's effortless.

I mean, that's the other thing about him with like arm strength and not getting injured off and it's an effortless kind of a delivery that he has.

And he says he's a perfectionist.

So that to me as a manager in the years that I've done, that possibly one of the most perfect games that I was involved with.

Just stay out of the way and let these guys go.

Yeah.

I used to say watching Kyle throw with that he had a very unique way of setting his wrist behind him throwing a baseball.

To me, it looked like guy throwing a paper plane, right, Okay, just a lack of effort.

It seemed like, I know it wasn't, but just was a pleasure to watch pitch.

How about this Joe in that World Series and give theo Epstein a lot of credit.

And I wrote a lot about this in my book The Cub's way where he built this team around drafting and developing position players because they set the tone, they set the whole culture of a team.

They're literally everyday players.

And he was able to acquire pitching.

Joe, you used eleven pitchers in the World Series.

None of them were homegrown, right, including of course Kyle Hendrix was obtained that trade.

You know, Jake Arietta, John Lackey, John Lester, up and down the line.

How about that?

And not a pitch was thrown by a homegrown Cub the twenty sixteen World Series.

Well, that was part of the concern at that point, that the Cubs were not nurturing their own pitching.

That was it.

But like you said, intentionally, it was all based on getting the offensive players.

In their shore.

Bra had a pretty good impact, Bias had a great impact.

KB did, of course, so control us all the homegrown age excuse me, Cubs players definitely made an impact, But there was a time there.

I think it's gotten a little bit better, but there was not a whole lot of homegrown pitching done back there.

So he did THEOGA did a nice job of bringing guys in there, a lot of experienced guys too, and putting, you know, right down to the bullpen, getting a rolled this like we did.

I think that was for Glibor Taurus going into that World Series.

You know, Pedro Strope loved me, Si Pedro stropector run Don and of course Mike Montgomery he even knew, right And who even knew about Carl Edwards Junior.

Who knew that these guys would be that impactful.

I didn't know that.

I mean, these are the kind of guys you find out during the latter part of the year, during September, we were getting this whole thing like kind of I don't want to say wrapped up, but in good shape.

These are the guys who were like the most aramend out of the bulletpenper Carl Montgomery and I think the left the left hand or Travis Wood.

Yeah, thank you Travis, My god, what a beautiful man.

So yeah, it's you just never know, You just never know.

But that is like wonderful scouting.

And uh, like I said, Jake Carriot, which was better than that.

So a great job of putting a piece of it together.

Yes, well we've reached the ninth ending of this latest episode of the Book of Joe.

You always bring us home, Joe with some words of wisdom.

We've been all over the map today.

What do you got to finish this off today?

I thought I had it, but you made I mean, I've made me shift gears and I got two things.

Actually the one I had was by James Baldwin.

I read James Baldwin.

I was in college, a Native son, and I love and it's about experience.

So you know, we're talking about experience, and this is my first thought.

Uh, take no one's word for anything, including mine.

He wrote, but trust your experience.

And wow, I mean that's not even just talked about it.

That's not even that's almost becoming archaic.

Then in a verbal I heard him talking about, you know, somebody that was trying to put him in a corner.

He says, I am not your label.

The label belongs to you, not to me.

God did I love that?

And it's true.

I mean, every time, you know, somebody tries to pin a definition on you, just defining yourself.

Man, when you start attempting to label somebody else, you're really talking about you and which your worries are, on, which how you define life, et cetera.

So that was the James Baldwin side of it.

That's what I began with.

But then you're talking about the contrarian stuff, talking about Ron Renike's of the world.

And I read this in a book not a one hundred percent sure it might have been a Wayne Dyer situation, and I think it was like more like an ancient Chinese proverb or something to that effect, or something in Zen philosophy, but talking about teaching or teachers, and it came down to this point, and I love this.

I can't teach you anything, but it could only make you think.

That's what a great teacher does.

I remember for years Bob Clear Babaloo in our book, The Book of Joe bob Aloo would just piss me off, and then he would say, I'm just trying to get you to think a little bit, you know, And so eventually I read that passage and all we can think about is bob Aloo.

So trust your own experience, and if you start trying to label people, realize you're just defining yourself.

And lastly, I can't teach you anything, but I can make you think.

And I think if you get that person on your staff that is such an invaluable person to have.

Oh great stuff.

I love that, Joe, especially about labels.

I look at labels and boundaries and I think those things are lazy and they're artificial.

I have no use for them, and I would never apply it to myself, so why would I apply it to anybody else.

I'm glad you brought that up.

And uh and yeah, contrarians, we need them.

Yeah right, And I admire people who don't have to be the smartest person in the room, who know what they don't know, and surround themselves with people who can complete them.

Agreed.

I mean that's uh yeah, Like I said, Ronnie Rennick is the motivation for that thought for me right now, along with bab Aloo.

But I'm telling you, Rags is really sharp.

Rags is well read, and he he he is so classic old school because if you do he is, he's right up there with Baba Loo and uh Ronnie Platt and uh Carl Keel and you know, Jimmy le Fever and I could keep going on and on.

If you don't want to hear the answer, don't don't let don't ask the question, man, because they're gonna tell.

You exactly what they think.

They are truth tellers.

And God do I love the truth Tellers?

Oh, we love it.

Joe.

Great stuff.

We'll see you next time on the Book of Joe.

See your brother, Thanks man.

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