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Hey Aaron, Welcome back.

To the Book of Joe Podcast with Me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden and Joe.

It's it's that time of year, this month of December.

There are a lot of people who find out what they're worth.

So I want to give you a choice here.

It's not quite let's make a deal because I only have two doors, but I want you to pick either door number one or door number two, which path we're going to go down at least to start this edition of the Book of Joe.

What's your choice?

My choice.

I'm not giving you a subjects you know, they don't give you any hints, and let's make a deal.

Okay, okay, okay, I'll go Dylan Cees.

All right, that was door number one.

So you're gonna be the door where we figure out what your value is this time of year, we're talking obviously about free agency.

At door number two is we'll get to a Hall of Fame vote coming up another way to establish value perpetually for that matter.

But you mentioned Dylan Cees.

I found this one really fascinating.

We're starting to see some free agents drop and it's all about the pitching market.

So far, we'll talk about Ryan Helsley and Devin Williams, a couple of late ending guys.

But Dylan Ceese is fascinating to me, Joe, and you've seen this guy.

He's got excellent stuff.

He's a guy who throws ninety seven ninety eight.

He actually spends the baseball more than anybody else in terms of starting pitchers.

And he's signing with Toronto.

And you have to really like the Toronto rotation at this point now with Dylan Ceas and a whole year of Trey y Savage and Kevin Gosman and on and on.

A ghost, tell me what you thought of this signing.

You have to like the fit with Toronto building on the momentum of winning an American League pennant.

But Dylan Cees.

What is it about Dylan Cees where the results don't match the st else?

Right?

I mean you look at his overall record as a major league pitcher and then you look at the number of dollars he's getting paid to play.

It's incredible, right, I would My first thought was any old timers that's still out there that kick butt in their in their time frame, looks at their record.

And go wow, and again just wins and losses.

And you look at how the game is perceived today, where you know, wins by starting pitchers aren't as valued as they once had been.

Or although I think to the picture himself, it still is.

However, it's uh the way it's viewed.

Uh, financially it's not the same.

You're right.

When I watched this guy, you wonder how I don't know him.

I never got to know him with the Cubs before he was straighted.

But just watching this might be dumb, but how easily the manager could take the ball away from him when he takes him out of the game.

It just seems it's almost like.

He's been trained to to fit into that five inning guy or six inning guy.

Maybe throw X number of pitches, throw as hard as you can.

Like I said, it's been the ball.

Well, I just don't know where the mental side of his game lies.

That's it, and I might be completely wrong, but that's that's just the perception I get from watching.

On the other hand, I think the Blue Jays that's a great sign for the blue Jays.

I agree physically, he gives him an outstanding staff that ballpark there, I don't know how it's playing now, meaning Toronto Ballpark, because I remember when I was still working there, the ball did fly and I and I think this guy can be you know, he can make mistakes in that ballpark that can't hurt him.

So this is like curious.

Yes, if I'm a team with all whatever, all these different potential playoff teams next year, I would absolutely have been in the game with with Dylan Cees.

But I'd want to know more about him.

I just don't know enough, because that's my perception from watching from a distance.

Yeah, I would say, first of all, when we look at his era and it's not very good, right, coming off a four point five to five season, and by the way, there is some deferred money in this contract, So to me, he's about a twenty six million dollars a year pitcher, and he really equates to Carlos Verdam the twenty seven and twenty six million for the Yankees.

The same kind of pitcher, high strike out rate.

He gets into bouts of inconsistencies because he just purely does not throw enough strikes, and to me, he spins the ball way too much.

He's got to change that.

This guy who throws the ball spins the ball fifty three percent of the time.

Major League gaverage is thirty one percent.

He's essentially a two pitch guy.

And to me, when you throw that much spin, hitters take it.

There's nobody goes up to the plate, very few who sit on spin.

And if Dylan Cez is gonna start you off with spin, which he does a lot of times, and think he's gonna throw his two strike slider and get a swing, it's not happening.

So he's consistently falling behind.

When you look at Dylan Sees' numbers, he does not do the fundamentals of pitching well.

He is below average and throwing first pitch strikes.

He's below average and filling the zone, which is ridiculous when you have the kind of arm that he has.

And he's below average at hitting the edges of the plate as well.

So he's pitching from behind a lot.

His ops allowed with no strikes on the batter and he gets too many of these counts.

Is over twelve hundred, the third worst in baseball.

He's in a class with guys like Bailly Ober and JP Sears.

That's not an elite pitcher, elite stuff.

Absolutely, he's a swing and miss guy.

And you know, Joe teams are looking at free agents, they're not looking at era.

They want to look at does he get swing and miss?

And he does.

And they look at mechanics and durability injury history, and this guy's been durable.

He's taking the ball thirty two or thirty three times five consecutive seasons.

So there's a lot there to unpack.

If you're the Toronto Blue Jays and you're Pete Walker, the pitching coach, and I've talked to him about this, he's.

Going to Robbie Ray him.

That's another good comp to Dylan Ceas.

Robbie Ray couldn't throw a strike, great stuff, high strikeout guy getting more than eleven punchouts per nine.

They got him in the zone.

That's what the Toronto Blue Jays have to do with Dylan Cees.

I call it the ninety four percent solution.

If you throw a pitch in the strike zone first pitch, the result is going to be positive ninety four percent of the time.

I'm talking about a swing, a miss, a called strike, or a foul ball.

Why wouldn't you do that.

That's what the Tampa Bay Rays do.

They sit in the middle of the zone with the catcher.

Fill it up in the middle of the zone at least aim at, you know, in the strike zone first pitch, and then you expand outward.

That's what Dylan Cees has to do.

You can't be throwing first pitch sliders on the edge of the plate or off the edge of the plate and falling behind.

One more issue here, he was tipping his pitches and he figured something out later in the season and was better.

But this is what happens in today's game essentially, especially when you're essentially a two pitch pitcher, which Cease is.

So there's a lot going on there for the Blue Jays to say, you know what, with a mix of pitches that we kind of revamp, cure the tipping problem.

This guy's going to be a dominant pitcher for us.

I can see why there's, you know, a ceiling for Dylan Cease that he has not reached yet.

So Mike comp Sir Carlos Redon, who became a much better picture with the Yankees by adding pitches, and I think Cease to me has to add a two seamer.

And getting in the strike someone more.

There's the same story with Robbie Ray and with Matthew Boyd another guy, very similar pictures, all three of them high strikeout guys, high era, find another pitch, get in the strike zone.

That's an awesome breakdown.

Actually, I mean, if you were you put your scouting hat on right there, if you're sitting in a meeting and you throw out through all of that out at me, you're actually building a very convincing case to item.

Because what you're talking about there is that I could hear all the Blue Jay staff, with the pitching coaches, front office, whomever, analytical group, we could fix him.

This is very doable.

And having a history of having done in the past, all the things you're speaking about there have a believable component to them that they can get better.

First of all, when you talk about the breaking ball over the fastball usage, immediately my mind goes to wherever he started or wherever got into his head first major League wise convinced him how good his breaking ball was and how often he had to throw it.

Now, I mean that happens in analytical departments too.

That can be part of it.

I don't know that, but that sounds like it may have been that.

It also sounds like for whatever reason, he's not proud of his fastball, and maybe maybe you have this too when it comes to throwing, Like if he has command issues, does he fastball command it just seems to be lacking.

Does he actually feel like he could throw his breaking ball for strike more consistently and he can break the ball.

And then also you kind of alluded to, but there's two options on a break and ball that's really good to have become a strike, one that it's called the other one that it's chased.

So just like it's not like there's a whole lot of stuff going on here that needs to be simplified.

And again, I think it is a good sign.

I think it's an interesting sign.

Is actual baseball numbers outside of swing and miss do not really, especially in today's game, reflect why it should be paid that much money.

But in this world of we can fix them, and that happens, man, and you know, we all believe we can fix somebody.

Every organization feels as though they have the secret sauce to get a really impressive talent who's been under achieving, and all of a sudden make him achieved to the level that everybody deems is potential.

So that's what's going on here.

I think they see it.

They believe they're better than others at doing these kind of things, and I think that that's part of the reason why they feel as though this is a good bet for them.

So it is a good bet on so many different reasons.

I don't know the guy, like I said, but beyond fixing this mechanical breakdown or physical breakdown regarding percentage of pitcherstone and how often and strike one and the importance of all that, I'm sure he's been.

Told that before.

They think they can fix.

This, and I think that's what it really breaks down to, is that they have a lot of confidence in their group.

Well, let's stay on the theme of fixing pitchers.

Orioles signed Ryan Helsley to a two year contract, reportedly twenty eight million dollars.

There's no way around this, Joe.

He was bad with the New York Mets last year.

I mean like really bad.

Twenty innings, twenty two appearances.

His era was seven point two home run rates, strikeout rate, walk rate, all of them not good.

So I don't know if the Orioles.

I don't want to say they're taking a flyer on this guy, because he's got a tremendous arm.

Right, He's another guy essentially a two pitch pitcher, but he doesn't throw strikes.

He's only in the nineteenth percentile and walk rate.

Here's what's shocking to me, Joe, He's in the seventh percentile, which is really low in terms of exs of velocity allowed.

He got hit, and he got hit hard, and especially his fastball.

He throws ninety nine.

And the slugging percentage against Ryan Helsley's fastball last year was six sixty seven.

The batting average was over four hundred.

He had the fifth.

Worst fastball in Major League Baseball, averaging ninety nine miles per hour.

And he ran away from his fastball.

He wound up throwing a lot more spin and again, two pitch guy.

And we hear this a lot, and I think it's true to some extent, but I think it's also sometimes a crutch.

You know, partly he blamed it on tipping his pitches.

You hear about this all the time.

Nobody ever gets hit because their stuff is bad.

They always get hit because it's these pitches.

But what do you see with the Orioles, You know, taking a flyer somewhat on Helsy at least to me as a closer, because.

He couldn't do that job in New York.

I'm not that he was going to be a closer, but I mean late inning leverage guy.

I know he had a problem with pitching more than one inning and getting himself ready to pitch a non ninth inning.

After the trade from Saint Louis, he should be the ninth inning guy in Baltimore.

What do you see there in future with Hellsley and the Orioles.

Well, first of all, I saw him with the Cardinals a couple of years ago, and I thought he pitched pretty well.

I loved the arm like you're talking about.

And again I wrote different notes down as you're talking about it that when I saw him last year, man, I really thought there was way too many breaking balls.

One hundred percent that's what I thought I was seeing.

He was not proud of his fastball.

It seemed as though fastball being getting hit, so he lost confidence in it and I'm gonna throw more breaking balls, and then he became very predictable.

But like you said, it is a great arm.

It is a fabulous arm.

So for me, I'd be curious curious if he could just add something soft.

I don't know if that's a change up, grip, change up once in a while, a split, something to that effect.

When you get to be his age and what he's able or not able to do, I would consider doing something like that.

Spread your fingers a little bit, try to throw it as hard as you can, see what happens, see what comes out of it.

If he can get something that gets them all velocity a I would do that, take some pressure off.

Like the two pitch mix, you get to a point in your career sometimes you have to add something like that if things you're doing to this point are not working.

So I'd be curious about that.

As regarding what they think, however, I think it's a good sign I do.

I kind of liked it when I saw it coming off such a bad moment in Baltimore.

The guy's got to do a lot of soul searching and a lot of analyzation over the offseason and try to figure out exactly what happened.

I would Baltimore's.

Position where they're at, It's not ten amount of signing kimberl.

I mean, I thought Craig was really much pretty much at the end a couple of years ago, so when they did that, I didn't like that sign for Baltimore at all.

But this guy, I still think he has.

There's something left in the tank there, and I would bet that there's They have some kind of an idea of adding something softer to his mix in order to get that fastball to explode more from the hitter's perspective.

But I think it's a good sign.

I think it's kind of interesting.

Interesting.

Also, Devin Williams leaving the Yankees for the New York Mets.

Now, it doesn't mean they're out on Edwin Diaz.

In fact, I think he's still a priority for them.

It would be a great back end, right if you have Williams and Diaz.

To take care of it at least the last six outs of the game.

That's the plan.

It's not a long contract, a three year deal, fifty one million dollars with deferral, so it's actually less so the money is not terrible.

But Devin Williams struggled at the beginning of last season.

Now he pitched better at the end of the year, but that was his best stuff.

Was one of the Yankees took him out of the closer's role and David Bednark came in wound up taking those highest leverage situations.

What do you see with.

Williams because we know again another two pitch guy who relies a lot on chase, I mean a lot.

He's well below the major league gaverage on the pitches in the zone.

I look the way he throws in every year in his career.

His arm angle has gotten lower and lower, and he's got great movement on the change up.

That airbender pitch is just an outlier pitch, but the more hitters see it, the more they're taking that pitch.

And he's to me, not in the zone enough.

Another guy who his fastball got hit gave up five home runs.

Williams is a good sign for the Mets.

Joe, But to me, there's always concern with some of these closers two pitch guys, whether they're tipping or whether they're just not in the strike zone enough.

Yeah, I really do like this sign.

I think he's gonna have a bounce back here.

I agree with the armslot actually saw that action.

I think I asked an MLB network.

I asked the guys.

They said, it looks to me like his arms lower, and you're saying they reiterated that was actually true.

I think with that everything's gotten flat to a certain extent, and I have to believe he's going to make some kind of adjustment going to this year, his second year in the city, in New York City.

I think it's gonna actually help him.

He had a bad look, man, he just in the beginning of the year, and even towards the end.

I mean he looked a little bit better.

I mean, I'm a face reader.

I can't help it.

He did not have the typical confidence because I seen him really good.

I would start right there.

I would start at the arm a little bit higher, get back to whatever his best year arm angle was, attempt to at least, and then just cut it loose from there, because it's like everything else, like your swing or baseball swing, golf swing, armstroke, when that gets off just a little bit, man, weird things happen and you're just not the same.

Whether it's a lot of times it's unintentional, maybe an injury caused this unintentionally, or like something was bothering him unintentionally.

Could even have been something in a lake that he was overcoming.

So I like this actually a lot.

I think he's going to bounce this year.

He's getting back into the league that he had done really well in.

There's some kind of familiarity component to that too, even though it's inbred now everybody plays everybody else.

But I kind of like this, and I would start right there.

Mariano Rivera was a one pitch pitcher and was really good.

You know, there's relief pitchers, especially a devastating change up to me off of a fastball, while that is the best other pitch, because his changeup is like a split workball, whatever, it just dives it.

It's there and it's gone, and there's no not one hitter.

It's hard.

It's hard to sit on a change up and actually do something with it, and it's that good.

It's hard to put your mind in that state of mind to sit there.

Something soft, soft, soft, So I like it.

I think he's going to do better than he did last year.

I'd like to start with the armstroke, where is it and see why it's gotten lower, So they could start with it there and do And I think you suggested a fastball command.

He does.

He's shotgun at times.

Man shotgun fastball really takes puts a lot more pressure on the offs beach pitch because guys are going to take him more often.

There's no question fastball command him getting ahead of a hitter early in account while that changeup automatically becomes better.

So it's not rocket science.

That's what he's probably thinking about right now.

But I would start with the armstroke and try to get it back to a particular point from release, a point perspective where it had been when he was very successful.

That's a great breakdown.

Excellent stuff, Joe.

We're going to take a quick break and I promise you we're going to talk about a Hall of Fame vote coming up.

It's one of the Era Committees of the Hall of Fame, voting on contemporary era players.

I'm going to put you in a room, Joe, with fifteen other people, with eight players on the ballot.

You can vote for up to three.

Who are you voting for?

We'll dive into that right after this.

On the Book of Joe, Welcome back.

It's the Book of Joe podcast and it's also a Hall of Fame time, at least when it comes to one of the era committees of the Baseball Hall of Fame.

It's a rotating basis based on different eras of Major League Baseball history.

This is the contemporary era.

Eight players are on the ballot.

You need to get seventy five percent of the sixteen people in the room, and let's separate them out.

You've got three guys who've been tainted by steroid use, talking about Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Gary Sheffield.

And of the same ballot you have Carlos Delgado, Jeff Kent, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy, and Fernando Vealezuela.

It's a really really good ballot.

Once again, you need to get three quarters of the vote here, as you do in the regular BBWAA balloting.

What do you think about this ballot?

Joan, where would you go if you were in that room?

I missed one guy, Delgado Kent maddingly and okay, okay.

Thank you?

Where would I go?

No, it's not I saw that immediately.

You're right.

This is this is like you can make a case for everybody.

On that list, right, I mean everybody there, And of course the first three guys would have been there by now had they not been tainted it in some way.

Absolutely, as I faced Elgatto he's one of my first shift guys.

Kent in the World Series in two thousand and two, maddingly you know what he had done is so underrated and how good he was.

And of course Valenzuela just turned on.

He was almost like a Fidrich of his time, just really turned on the baseball world with the quirkiness and success simultaneously.

Then you get a Murphy who just quietly went about his business and what started out as a catcher came a center for older hit bombs, just played the game in a in a quite elegant way.

The guys just a really really big, strong, good baseball player.

So where would I go?

I mean, first of all, I think you have to decide whether or not how do you feel about the first three guys, Bonds, Clements, and Sheffield in regards to the storoid issue.

At what point do you are you going to relax it as a voter or do you never relax it as a voter.

Then you look at maybe some other guys you might be suspicious of that have actually maybe eventually gotten to the hall, and then somehow in the back of your mind, I still have suspicions whether or not these guys were using or not.

So for me, like obviously the first three guys, yes, we could all I think easily agree belonging in the Hall of Fame.

Then I think it comes down to your your your your voting moras.

How do I feel about this?

Do I feel that it's time?

Have they have they served enough time?

Or do I never give them an opportunity?

Do I equate steroids with gambling in a sense regarding you know, going against the rules of baseball?

And do I eventually put Pete Rose in and Shuley Joe Jackson in that group?

And if they're worthy based on what's going on in the world today where gambling has become a part of the fabric of industrial sports is compared to in the past.

So at what point do I get over it?

Am I over it?

And just a long answer, But so that's that's where you have to start with.

I believe and if in fact so My point is, if in fact you can get over it, I would choose those three guys.

If in fact you can't get over it, that's among three out of the five below that, and I really believe that Madningly in I would go at Balanzuela in and then after that probably Delgado.

So I would go with those three guys if if I can't choose the first three, if my sensibilities permit, I would go Bonds, Clements, and Sheffield.

And if not, I would go with Delgado, Madningly and Balanzuela.

Otherwise, Yeah, you just spoke well about how difficult the choice is.

Now.

Listen, Bonds and Clemens have been on one of these ballots before.

We know that they had ten shots on the Baseball Writer's ballot.

They got two thirds of the vote, but they didn't get the three quarters to get in.

Last time they were on one of these ballots, they had fewer than five votes.

It's definitely a lack of support there.

Think about this, Joe, you mentioned kind of the moral question you have to raise with two of them.

To me, it's not really a moral question.

It's more like did you play fairly?

It's like the least thing you can ask of anybody in sports, did you play on an even playing field?

And if you didn't, I'm sorry.

I'm not voting for you, and I think that's the problem here.

You get into that room, and I've been in that room.

Not for this particular committee, but you have to get there and make an argument for people who knowingly cheated the game.

When you have people like you just mentioned Delgatto and Matt and Murphy and Vealnezuela.

You're going to make a case for those guys.

Don't tell me that there weren't rules at the time.

Everybody knew when they were using peds they were doing something they weren't proud of, and nobody talked about it.

And they still haven't admitted it to this day because they know it's wrong and they know it's tainted.

It is really hard to make that argument and convince.

Three quarters of the people in any room that that was worthy of the highest.

Individual honor you can ever get in baseball.

That's why it's so difficult for those guys not to get votes, but to get enough votes, especially on a ballot like this with so many good candidates.

So for me, I want to start with DoD maddingly and I want to get your take on this, Joe, because when I'm in that room, I would consider someone's entire contributions to the game of baseball.

Yes, you're on the ballot primarily because of what you did as a player.

And there was a six year period there where Don Maddingley was the.

Best player in baseball.

You look at the whole package.

He had a six year period where he led the Major leagues and slugging and was a Gold Glove defender at first base.

Not just a gold Glover, one of, if not.

The best defenders at that position or at any position actually.

But I look, he went on to manage twelve years in the major leagues.

I'm gonna draw a ven diagram for you, Joe.

Remember the ven diagrams?

No, what is it ven diagrams?

Back in I don't know.

I guess it was the diagram, you know, the interlocking or intersecting circle of subsets of things.

But I wasn't good at that stuff.

But yes, I'll keep it simple for you.

There are two hundred and ninety eight players who've had two thousand hits in the major leagues.

That's one of our circles.

Then we've got another circle of guys who have managed eighteen hundred games.

There's seventy four in that circle.

If you combine the two of them two thousand hits eighteen hundred games managed.

There's only seven people in the history of the game that have done both, and Don Manningly is one of those.

You know, I just look at the fact that, yeah, he didn't win a championship as a manager, but that's twelve years of managing.

I just can't not consider for a guy who put up those kind of numbers offensively as well.

One more thing.

For you, Joe, you saw how good of a hitter he was.

You had to defend the field against him.

I mean, you weren't shifting on him.

I don't think Since the game was integrated in nineteen forty seven, there have been thirty three players who have been career three hundred hitters who also totaled more than thirty three hundred total bases.

So you're talking about premier hitters of that group, the ones with the fewest strikeouts, Tony Gwynn, Don Mattingly, and Stam Usual.

That's a pretty good company for a guy who's not just a great hitter, but put the ball in play.

Leading the league and slugging the major leagues and slugging over six year period and not striking out more walks than strikeouts in his career.

It's pretty incredible.

I know it was a little short because of the back injury.

He lost power as he kept playing because of that.

Well, I would take a hard look at Don Maddingly and.

They all left tenant hitters that you described right there, right Yeah, I think a six year window is pretty significant to accomplish that over six years, And like you're talking about put the entire game together.

Is this just like wins for a picture?

Is it just batting average for a hitter.

I don't even know his war is considered for his his career numbers.

I don't even know what that may look like.

But how about just the eyeball test on Maddeningly as a Hall of Famer.

As far as I'm concerned, you said the twelve years of managing, I'd have to believe it counts in some way.

You're correct.

You're probably thinking about Molatar, Joe Tory, Frank Robinson.

I bet you these other guys are on the list that did something similar to that.

I just think if you check out the whole body of work, like you said, offense defense, just as he was the captain of the Yankees too, wasn't he for a bit?

All the things that he's done.

If you if you put in one big ball, it's pretty significant.

So again, how do you evaluate who's eligible and then who belongs in the Hall of Fame?

I think at some point you got to go beyond numbers a little bit.

I think the human side of this thing and the whole body of work.

Again talking about the liberal arts component, liberal arts component of the game.

The fact that this guy did so many things so well, and then, like I said, just that six year window right there is significant.

Does that equal I don't know, four hundred ninety three home runs?

Does that equal two and fifty five wins that Bob Gibson had.

I mean, you know, there's this threshold that sometimes guys don't reach those magic numbers.

But again, if you look at exactly what they did, yeah, that was that was a Hall of Fame player.

It's a great point you bring up, Joe, and I think that that's where the debate really has gone more in recent years, is like a six year period as the best player in the game, is that enough to be a Hall of Famer?

And traditionally, and he alluded to this, it was the counting numbers that got you in.

You had to get some of those magic numbers, those thresholds.

But I think more and more we're looking at did someone dominate the game over an extended period of time?

And I used to think that period would have to be like nine, ten years, But I think the standards a little bit different now.

First of all, I think it is harder to dominate the game just the you know, the talent level of the game is so high across the board, it's hard to do that.

But Dale Murphy fits in that same category.

Joe.

You talk about a six year period where he made the All Star team every year, won five goal gloves, two MVPs back to back, by the way, two home run titles, two RBI titles.

And he did that while playing center field.

You mentioned he was a guy catcher starting out.

They moved him out to center field.

He was a great center fielder.

You look at his OPS just when playing center field, eight to fifty f four ops.

There have been sixteen players who played at least a thousand games in center field with an OPS that high.

That's a pretty small group.

Right of those sixteen, there's only been four of those who won five goal gloves or more.

While playing center field.

Willie Mays, Ken Griffy Junior, Dale Murphy, and your boy Jim Edmonds.

That's it.

Five goal gloves with an A fifty four ops in center field.

Yeah.

I mean when you were starting to talk about them, I immediately thought about Jim.

You know, then you added them to that list.

Listen, that's what I'm saying.

You're right.

I mean, I'm glad I'm not in a position I have to make these votes.

But what you're doing right now is exactly what I've probably would have done or would have done, is like try to break all of this stuff down, because the menu tay of all this really is going to be the difference maker.

Under the hood stuff is going to be the difference maker.

If you get to choose three of these eight, you got to go there.

Like I said, the first three, over fifty percent of the voters are going to cross them off automatically, just space on what had happened in their past.

So they're really going three out of five on the bottom.

So that gives you a chance to do a deep dive into all those five guys.

And so, yeah, well you just said about Murphy is pretty outstanding, and I didn't, you know, I didn't realize all the MVP stuff.

I'm sorry, but I didn't know that off the top of my head.

But it all makes sense.

I mean, he was that good.

I mean America's team at that time.

I watched them often between WGN or TBS back in the day with the Brave Mean on all the time.

You got to see these guys play, and he was all of that.

And I know he's a wonderful man.

So again, that's it.

You have to do your own personal deep dive as a voter and come up with your conclusions, because, like you're just suggesting, you can make a case for all of these people.

Can I make a case for Jeff Kent?

Sure?

Why does he get more love?

I mean, he got very little love from the writers when he was on the ballot.

This is a guy who is His career batting average was two ninety.

You put runners out there in scoring position, he was better.

He hit three hundred.

He is the highest.

Career postseason ops of any second basement in history.

He has more home runs, more hundred RBI seasons, and more games hitting cleanup than any second basement in baseball history.

That's a pretty darn good credentials.

You look at any position on the field and the guy who had the most home runs at that position, if you take out Barry Bonds and steroid use, they're all in the Hall of Fame or now by Pool's case at first base going in and Jeff Kent, I'm not sure if he's going to win on this ballot, because again it's a really deep, good ballot.

There's got to be a place for a guy who hit more home runs than any second basement in history.

I think so.

And then again, I don't want to belabor this, but like Bobby Gritch, you look at Bobby Grich's war versus Ryan Sandbury, and I love Ryan Sandburg, but look at Ritchie did it?

Nobody ever even talks about Ritchie.

That's another sub But what I realized was I was my voting was leaned towards American leaguers.

I saw Delgatto play, I saw Maddingly play on the field, so I guess automatically I went there.

Kent I just saw in the World Series.

Primarily, I saw him in spring trainingsc is at that time, you didn't see a lot of the other league.

Vealezuela was just the thing.

I wasn't even around.

I was in the minor leagues pretty much.

And Murphy, like I said, was on TV.

So again, yeah, listen, Kent very dangerous.

I saw himhen he was what the Indians and the Mets right, Yes, and he do both and he wasn't.

It was just I just whenever I saw him, I didn't see him that well.

You know, then I know what he did.

I get it.

And then all the I think part.

Of the voting component of it, I just think it might be a personality issue because I know he did rub some people the wrong way, good, bad and different.

I'm just saying I think sometimes when you're when you're voting or you're evaluating.

To me, and I used to have these meetings with my coaches all the time, Okay, you need to keep the personality of this first.

Okay, I want you to evaluate the player as you're seeing it.

Okay, look at him.

What are his tools all about?

How do you project the abilities?

You know, hit, the five tools, all of that.

You've already brought up.

What he does with runners in scoring position, defensively, range, accuracy with armat centa give me that and then tell me you don't like him, Tell me you don't like him for whatever reason.

Tell you see a personality flaw that you think they a lot Oftentimes to me, the personality flaw would be that coaches cannot connect with the player, whereas, oh, he doesn't listen, he doesn't retain things, whereas I for me a lot of times was maybe just the coach didn't say it in.

The right words.

So there's two different ways to evaluate, and for me, the one that really should take center stage would be the evaluation on ability and performance.

That's number one, and then interject the personality side of it.

And then if you saw some real flaws in there.

I'm talking from a team perspective, Yeah, I can influence how we like to do business here.

But in his situation, you had a personality far or disliked from whatever reason.

That should be totally thrown in the waste basket because in this situation it should be all about a good scouting report and we saw him as a player and with the numbers said and indicated.

So I do believe possibly a lot of the negative side of that was the evaluation, you know, interaction with them, possibly turn some people off.

Yeah, you might be right.

I mean human nature, right, I mean it shouldn't factor in, but human nature that it does.

He also bounced around, as you alluded to, a bunch of different teams.

And there's the defense.

You know, people want to hold his defense against him.

Was he a great defender?

And no, But this is the way I look at it, Joe, and I want your managers had on for this one.

There was only ten players in the history of the game who played more games at second base than Jeff Kent.

Managers do not run guys out to a position who can't play the position.

Year after year.

And he played on really good teams.

He was in the postseason a lot with San Francisco, Houston, you name it.

So he was good enough that they kept running him out there at second base.

And when you have a second baseman who slugs and heads clean up, you know this, Joe, it's like having an offensive catcher.

You have an edge on the other team.

That's a huge advantage.

So was he a great defender.

No, but he was a defender year after year after year at that position on winning teams.

So to me, don't hold his defense against him.

Well, with a guy like that, then you can look at a position that may be more offensive and get a more defensive player to counteract the fact that this guy's going to do so much damage at second manager really speaking, man, I'll tell you what, when you didn't have strong defense there at second base, that would always bother me everything up the middle.

However, I would look back at the pitching staffs in general, and I don't know this, but flyball versus ground ball pitchers, and then how good were they at positioning at that time, because that was done by lines on a chart that your bench coach kept.

So a guy like kent to me really could survive easily if your staff was composed primarily of flyball pitcher.

And if they did, then you feel better about him at second base.

Secondarily, if that's not the case, you really have to do a good job.

Where do I start this guy?

You have to increase his range by putting him closer to where the ball is being hit and hit hard.

That would be like, if I'm working with him.

And I'm the charge of the defense, I would spend a lot of time on where do I start Jeff today regarding this whole line, because that would be part of the way to maximize his defense.

I think in today's game.

With the analytical component, I think it would be easier to put him in the right spot more consistently.

And I do believe, I mean, if he's an offensive second basement like that, he would play today because after all, analytics loves offense.

Although run prevention is a big phrase utilized, but those are the kind of my thoughts with him.

That's what I would.

I would because I did.

I mean, I used to do the defense a lot for the Angels back in the day, and I would sit down after every game and Diego Lopez was the video guy.

I'd have Diego on a video cassette.

He would put down the twenty seven action pitches or thirty whatever forty from the day before, and I would look at the action pitches, whether it's a strikeout of ball four ball and play.

I'm looking at bad angles, how the ball came off dude's bats, and I would combine that with the actual scouting report, and then I would try to decide for where does somebody have to be and I would talk to him about that, and you just watch watch bad angles and if he's late, he looks to me late lately, he's not catching up the fastballs.

Those are the kind of things that you really want to feed into it.

Jeff Kent to make him a better second basement.

I would like to believe a lot of that was done.

But at the end of the day, long answer, if this guy can hit to those levels that you're talking about, he's going to play.

That's the bottom line for me, Joe, And like you, I love defense.

I think you can't separate it from pitching.

They're interconnected.

But I think about this, Think about the New York Yankees up the middle.

Hori Posada got knocked for his defense, Derek Jeter got knocked for his defense.

Bertie Williams got knocked for his defense.

What did the Yankees do every year they won with those guys up the middle.

So do I love defense?

Absolutely?

Do I trust defensive metrics?

No, I don't.

And I think too many times people voters at least are working off reputations and saying, you know what, that guy was a good hitter, but he was not a good defender.

I'm not going to vote for him.

You know that's just gobbledegook.

I mean, just watched it again.

Derek Jeter played shortstop his whole career until he was forty one years old.

You know, if he was that bad, they would have moved him off that position.

Watch the game.

Watch the game.

I you know, and I know this for a fact, as I've been told this, and I in today's world, I think a lot of people that are observing the game in order to write about the game are not watching the game.

They're going to react to what's being fed to them on their feeds during the course of the game.

They're going to react to social media commentary things like that.

Are not really going to watch what's going on, and because they're gonna rely on statistical information to make up their mind when it comes to and I realize that sometimes you can be deceived, like I will have a perception of Tom Erducci as a hitter, and then when I bring it to my guys.

And my analytical department, they come back.

I said, could you run this because I think I'm seeing this, And I'll come back and I say, no, it's completely opposite of what you think you're saying.

Amen, I believe you, and I listen and then I reevaluate.

But you got to watch the game.

You got to watch the game, and that comes right down to first steps angles, How does.

This you know?

What is this guy accuracy of his arm?

Like, what are you seeing out there?

What's going on out there?

And then if you want to overlay the statistical information over what you actually saw, go ahead and do it.

But I think in today's world, with the reliance so much on being told what is right and wrong as opposed to attempt to observe and use your acumen to see things.

Listen, I love ron Rennicky.

I talk about Rags all the time.

Rags saw things.

Rags was a great coach, not a good coach, because Ronnie saw things anytime.

I meaning that he would pick up on nuance of a field.

There is not getting set properly, coming set too late, moving with the wrong foot first, getting deeked in his position, base running just in, he came, got his lead too late, whatever whatever it might be.

He would see things.

And that's what you want to be able to do.

And you only do that by disconnecting from the ball.

In other words, you're not watching the ball from the picture's hand of the hitter where it's hit all the time.

You have to really disconnect and spare it down in the shortstop.

It's almost like the isolated camera they used to show a lot in sports, and they would show it on somebody and then obviously the ball would hit in that area and then you would see this reaction on the camera and you would see why the play was.

Made or not play or not made.

So these are the things I just I get frustrated with because I am so in tune to and able to see things based on my training, and I don't have to rely on that information all the time.

I want to overlay it and.

When I'm wrong, ask the question, is I think I'm seeing this, Tommy, what do you got And you come back and said, no, listen, man, I ran this and this is here's actually what is going on.

And I accept that, but I still want to challenge myself to utilize my acumen to see things and then combine it with data.

I love that.

And speaking of coaches, there was a bit of news on one of your former coaches off your World Championship, cub Staff.

We'll get into that and our final thought of the day right after this on the Book of Joe.

Welcome back to the Book of Joe.

I'm sure you probably saw this.

Joe Brandon Hyde.

Hyder, released of course during the season last year by the Orioles as their manager, signed on with the Tampa Bay Rays as an advisor.

Interesting move, I believe.

Doesn't a hider still live in that area, the Tampa Bay area.

He's done in Sarasota.

I just talked to him right before it happened, so I knew it had a chance that I could not be happier.

I mean, had this guy as a coach for when I was with the Cubs.

I trusted him implicitly.

The guy does his work.

The guy he's not afraid of a tough conversation.

He's a baseball guy.

Went to Long Beach State.

Amen, al lujah.

I'll take those guys every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

They've been they've been trained properly.

They're straightforward, they don't know how to lie.

They're just they're just and they're just good, solid baseball people.

And that's Hyder.

Hyder is really good at all this.

So you know, as like I said, as a bench coach for me and even as a first base coach with the Cubs, and he did a lot in spring training.

He helped run all these spring training God, I would watch it.

It was precise.

He had a sense of humor.

He takes charge of the situation.

You're not He's not a pushover.

You're not going to mess with him.

He has opinions, he knows what he believes in all of this stuff.

So I could not happier I talked him about It was so jack when he told me.

And it's a great fit for him.

I believe, Yeah, that is a great fit.

And everything you said about him obviously is true, especially your part about you know, don't.

Mess with him if you're not playing the game the right way.

But I've always thought.

Of a Hyter just as a truly authentic, honest guy, right, that's right.

You know, he speaks the truth and nothing but the truth.

And in this game, I think that stands out.

And I always say that's if you want to be a great coach or a manager, it has to start with that.

You know, players you know this, Joe, they'll see through it if you're just blowing smoke.

I never got any of that from Hyder.

Is impossible, It doesn't.

It doesn't possess that he's just not capable of doing that.

He's he I'm telling you my time spend in Southern California.

We've talked about this before.

One of the most cherished parts about that is the baseball people that help me, help nurture me to do what I eventually did.

It's a it's a conservative bastion of baseball Southern Collifornia for at least formerly the coaches, head coaches, scouts in general, right down to Babbeloo, Bob.

Clear my mentor with the Angels.

I mean, these guys, God, if you did not want to hear the answer, please don't ask the question, because they're not going to dissemble.

They're going to tell you straightforwardly.

And the only way to do that if you're going to help make somebody better.

There's a great line honesty without compassion equals cruelty.

So these guys they just didn't know that.

They just told you.

And that's where it was raised.

That's Hider was raised.

That's how he was raised.

It's the only way to be raised.

And that's why the guy from that neck of the woods are so good and I have such a warm fuzzy about it, right down to Jim Deets, who recently passed away at San Diego State.

Deeker was the guy that got Tony Gwynn to go to San Diego State.

I worked with Diets in Boulder, Colorado, in nineteen nineteen eighty and God, I mean, I don't know if I've ever met anybody worked harder than he did, or cared more than he did, and taught the game.

Jimmy would get on the ground literally when a guy was hitting somebody's throwing a batting practice.

He would get bellied on the ground and he arms out.

He would hold the guy's feet and ankles and move the feet and ankles as the ball was coming in to teach him how to move his feet properly.

Who does that?

Who does that?

I mean, these guys were nuts.

He actually put the lights up.

He put the lights on the light towers at San Diego State.

He got up on the towers themselves and put the lights in to save money.

So all these dudes in southern California, I'm telling.

You, man, high school coaches, junior college coaches, all of them spectacular.

And I'm always I'm going off on a tangent.

But that's Wherehyder comes from.

And he was taught properly, and that is the best and.

Only way to coach.

That's very cool.

I've never heard about a guy beating on the ground as a hitting coach to move his feet bellied down.

I saw it in Boulder.

I couldn't believe it, could not believe it.

Of course, Heider was a just a couple of years ago Manager of the Year.

I look back at this, Joe, between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty three, the twelve Managers of the year, eight of them are no longer managing.

Eight of the twelve that wasn't that long ago, folks, buckshow Walter, Gabe, Kapler, Dob Manningly, Mike Schilt, Bright, Snicker, Bob Melvin Rockobell Delli, and Brandon Hyde.

So hopefully, if Hyde does want to manage again, hopefully there's another opportunity for him in this game.

But good to year.

He's sticking around with the Rays and sticking around at home.

That brings us to our final thought, Joe, we've been over the map, all over the map a little bit today, but we're talking about valuation, free agents, Hall of Fame.

I'm not sure what you've got in mind, whether that dovetails with some of our topics today, but it's always interesting.

What do you got today?

Yeah, you know, weirdly I did.

I had five of them or four of them circle for today because I was not certain how about me?

And I went with I had a Mark Twain list of stuff went in doubt quote Mark Twain.

So I don't know.

But there's a couple that I really liked.

I'm just and you could fit these in any way you want, but they're really short, which I like, and they're always perceptive.

So I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna start with number twenty four because I really like this one a lot.

A lie can travel halfway around the world where the truth is putting on its shoes.

Wow.

Do I love that?

We all know that, And that's.

A really part of today's culture in general.

I think, okay, number five, Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to the possibilities.

Truth isn't.

Wow, And again, wear that as you like wherever you find yourself on Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

And I've known that since the seventies.

I love that one, right, because sometimes you almost want to run away, for I do oftentimes, and I guess I've been accused of I'll run away from the crowd because the when you get this group think going on, man, And when group think occurs, it's the it's the head, it's the leader, it's whomever the dictator might be of that group.

That's regardless of how open they want to make it appear.

At the end of the day, that's the voice and only voice that's going to count.

Maybe that's the right way to be.

I don't know, but when you get to those majority groups, and man, I've always been a part of the minority.

And I love this one, and I'll save this for last.

I've had a lot of worries in my life, most of which never happened.

And it's true.

And I was just talking to Wendy about that the other day.

I mean, we always worry about stuff, and we always fabricate worry.

And when you do that, you don't stay.

In the present tense often enough, and it takes you off on these tangents.

And really there's a big energy loss in that when you constantly permit yourself to go off on tangents.

So remember that you have a lot of worries in life.

I don't even know over ninety percent, maybe ninety over ninety five percent never happened.

Wow, that's some great stuff.

Mark Twade.

By the way, Hall of Famer, doubt first ballot of.

Hall of Fame, first ballot, exactly.

I love the part about the majority as well, Joe.

I mean where that phrase the wisdom of the crowd came from?

Man, run away from that.

That's the way I look at it.

Don't walk run Absolutely, that's correct.

Hey, Tommy, let me tell you about something.

On December seventeenth down here in Tampa at Alva Restaurant, We're going to have a thanks Miss.

Thanks missus my invention kind of where you serve the homeless.

And I chose the word thanks miss because I wanted to indicate these people are in need to need our help regardless of the time of the year.

We always tend to focus on helping other people during holidays.

Thanks Miss to me indicated any any time of the year, and I was really zeroing in on any date between Thanksgiving and Christmas to come up with thanks Miss.

But we've been doing it since two thousand and six.

Excuse me, since the pandemic, it's gone more difficult, been doing it in Pennsylvania, but but bringing it back as a fundraiser at AVA on December seventeenth.

Got thirty celebs involved already.

Coach Sean Cooper is going to be there, a Jason Light from the Bucks, Freddie McGriff working on some Maddy Joyce, some guys that used to be with the Rais and working on some present rays and some others.

Hopefully you can try to trap Coach Gruden to come on down to it also, But anyway, it's going to be like thirty dudes there and also Brittany Linsey Come's going to be there, so she's wonderful.

We're going to serve this petty meatball sausage and homemade piogi would be a part of this.

We got one hundred and fifty that we could handle.

You're going to get a copy of the Book of Joe and a beanie that indicates the thanks Massana.

We have tables at twenty five hundred dollars sponsorships up to a ten thousand dollars sponsorship, and I think general admissions one hundred and fifty bucks and it's going to be sold out.

It almost already is so, but I wanted to put it out there.

Anybody's insted it in the air in the area, get in touch with us and I could get you that information.

Even if you just called Ava the restaurant Ava Ava seven eighteen South Howard Avenue in Tampa, they'll be able to give you information how to get this done.

Anyway, it's just the beginning of it.

I have other plans.

I want to get it rolling again.

I want to bring back thanks here in Florida, which we are.

I want to get it back in Pennsylvania, want to do it in Chicago.

Those that'll be my triangle to work with.

And it is it's for the homeless, and we try to we do serve them, we honor them at that point.

We do attempt to give them a gift every place that we serve at and it could be anywhere from one hundred people to two hundred and fifty three hundred people that attend on a particular night.

So anyway, that's the cliff notes.

If you're in Tampa, come by and see us again.

It's the first and I really want to try to make it a part of spring training somehow, and that would be my next idea and I'll keep you posting on that.

Oh that is awesome, Joe.

I mean, obviously it's super important to remember those less fortunate, especially this time of year.

Wish all the best with that event and all the people helping you with that.

And by the way, I have been to Ava and it's awesome, so good luck with that event.

Thank you man.

Food's great.

Thank you, Jail.

Jail.

Our chef is actually making a homemade piolgi for this and I sampled it the other night.

Outstanding, great stuff.

Joe.

We'll see you next time on the Book of Joe.

See you, Tommy.

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