God help you.

Gray.

I've got Rocky and Bruce from a Living sacrifice.

Bruce is a returner and Rocky this is your first time on the podcast.

Just really excited for you both to be on here.

We're going to talk all about the hammering process, your guys, upcoming show at Furnace Fest, and I'm sure other things will come up.

But before we dive into all of that, how do you do?

How are you doing today, Bruce?

And how are you doing today, Rocky?

I'm good.

Thanks for having us.

We appreciate it.

I love it.

Yeah, Bruce, I know you you said that you were just in Arkansas with the guys.

Do you were you happen to like do a little rehearsing.

Is that what was going on?

Yeah?

Yeah, we're starting to rehearse actually, I mean our first rehearsal was was maybe almost a month ago where we were kind of like basically trying to relearn some songs that that we haven't played in a long time or even at all live.

There's always, you know, you know, when you put out a record, there's always a few songs that you never get around to, like, you know, performing and especially you know, you know, we've got at this point, like eight albums, so it's kind of like you know, picking and choosing stuff.

Although we mainly just stick to the last five records, we don't we don't do a ton of the old stuff that I that I didn't sing necessarily, but every now and then we will, and and during those times sometimes we'll have DJ come and sing them and stuff like that.

But yeah, this was our second rehearsal and you know, it's coming together.

Really, I love it.

How does it feel to rehearse some songs that maybe haven't played for twenty plus years?

Is it like riding a bike or that it just kind of comes back pretty naturally for you guys, or is it something where it's like, oh, this is something we're gonna have to really relearn here it takes somewhere.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, I mean if you haven't if you haven't played something in twenty years, it's I mean it it can come back to you, but it's not.

There's no muscle memory there, you know.

So a lot of these songs that we play, you know, pretty regularly or pretty often, it's like it's no big deal.

But yeah, there's there's some difficult ones for sure.

Well, you mentioned too, like there's some songs you know obviously that just kind of never get played.

You know, you record them, they go on the album, and that's kind of the last you probably have a relationship with it, or at least for some time.

And I'm curious, like I've thought about this for like other bands, I really like you bands that you know, especially bands that have put out a large input or out output of albums and songs, and certainly you just get to a point where some of these songs might be twenty years old and haven't been played for a very long time or if ever.

And I've always been curious, like how artists relate to those songs, right Like, you know, your most popular sounds, for example, right like the songs that you're most well known for, right Like, those are the songs you're always gonna be playing live and you have like a continued relationship with those songs for a long time.

But those songs that maybe just they only made the album, but then you just never play them ever.

Again, I'm always curious, like do they kind of feel like the forgotten children?

Or like what, like what's your really like?

I'm sure you're proud of them, but is it kind of a thing where it's like, oh, yeah, I forgot that we did that.

Like, I don't know, I'm just curious, like how you relate to some of those songs that either you haven't played in a long time or maybe have never played before.

Rock.

It's easy to it's easy to forget, like, well, what you've done, what you haven't done.

I mean it's usually like we'll play the songs we think are the coolest and easiest to do it first, and then we just start playing those and it's easy to forget.

Hey, we got like nine more songs you know on the record we could play.

But once we get going, I mean, that train just keeps going because we don't have a lot of time, like to rehearse our stuff, so it's a lot of stuff does get put on the back burner.

But after we do a record, it's usually like, what do we think is the coolest thing, and we'll do that and then we'll get to the other ones when we get to it, if we get to it.

And that's a big gift sometimes.

Yeah, I mean a lot of times there's there's always there's always songs that just kind of pop out and it's just kind of like the obvious ones, like you know, when you're when you're sequencing the record and you're like, you want to put the bangers up front, and you know, but keep a few towards the end as well.

But relationally, I mean, I feel, I feel like I I like them all.

I think they're all good, but there's definitely a certain amount of difficulty in some of them.

And because we're not full time touring or or or or playing, you know, it's not it's it's not super easy to just pull it out or jump right in.

You know, if we were, if we were constantly playing, you know, and touring, it'd be a lot easier for us to work work through those songs.

And you know, I mean, but you know, we all have we have day jobs and and and and Rocky is the only one that actually plays for a living.

So he's writing and recording soundtrack stuff.

So dang, well, wait, what, like, Rocky, what are you doing just like music stuff?

Like what what's your what do you do for that?

I've worked full time for Require Interactive, the video game company out of the and so for the last three years I've been doing the music for Killing Floor three that just came out, and then I'll do some movies or something in between there when I have time.

But but yeah, every day is the nine to five is playing metal.

For I love that.

So it's so even like because we've interviewed a number of artists where the like their day jobs is kind of like doing like commercial license kind of music.

So I mean it sounds like that's what you're doing, but like you're doing specifically exclusively metal.

This game is all metal.

Wow, that's super.

But you do you do movie soundtrack stuff too as well?

Yeah, and yeah, a lot of retro like eighties rock and synth and stuff like that.

I don't do a lot of that anymore.

I'm doing the Barn three right now, and that's like some that retro stuff.

But I do a lot of that.

What but I don't do it so much anymore because that, you know, the nine to five job is music every day right through Friday.

So well speak so kind of along those lines and like rocky like kind of what again.

We talked to Bruce a couple of years ago about, you know, kind of how he got involved with like Living Sacrifice and obviously his own music journey.

So yeah, like, what what got you involved in music and how did you get to Living Sacrifice in nineteen ninety eight.

Well, I was been doing music one one way or another.

I started getting instruments for Christmas and stuff like that when I was like ten.

So from from ten on I've been I've been playing.

And then when I met Living Sacrifice, however, long ago, that was many eons ago.

Nineteen nineteen one, nineteen ninety we paid.

Yeah, we played a show with his band, or or several shows, a couple of shows, because he was in a metal band called Chalice, and they were like, you know, they were a killer band, you know.

And so I actually played with a couple of your bands.

I don't know, I don't know.

Did we ever play with six Shine when you were playing drums for them?

No, I don't think so.

Yeah.

Yeah, So Rocky was like always like a you know, a part of the music scene, you know, in and around Little rock and everything, and him and Lance became friends because they were the two best metal drummers out there as far as I was concerned.

I don't know, can't name of a better one.

So it sounds like for you, Rocky, you just like, you know, you're playing shows, and you play some shows with Living Sacrifice with your own bands, and that's just kind of like how that relationship started for him.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean just being friends just like and then I needed a guitar player, and Lance said, hey, come over and jam with us and we'll see what happens.

Now.

Now Rocky was a drummer though, But Lamba's.

Like, yeah, so how do you recruit a drummer?

And you're like, oh, that guy's l.

Like Rocky plays guitar, and I was just like, really, okay, awesome it worked out.

Yeah, twenty seven years later.

Do you have any do you have any fun stories about like that?

Maybe it was that kind of first time you guys are jamming out, but was there any fun story where maybe you're coming in and Bruce is giving you that look kind of like it's like a real job interview, but it kind of isn't, Like, I don't like, do you have any kind of fun story around that kind of first time where you're trying to, you know, figure out whether or not this is gonna be a thing with Living Sacrifice.

It it was actually really easy because I had known him for a long time already so it was kind of just, I don't know, weird because it was just us, dammon.

It really didn't feel like an interview or anything like.

It didn't matter just it worked out or not.

It was just fun.

It was right, just friends hanging out.

That's that's great.

So so that's that happened in ninety eight, and then a couple of years later, Hammering Process comes out.

So that's the first album that you're on, Rocky, and so yeah, let's let's talk chat all about Hammering Process because obviously it's twenty five years which I would imagine for both of you, it's probably pretty hard to believe that was twenty five years ago.

Yep.

I don't know if it's one of those things where it just feels like it was just yesterday or not.

It doesn't feel like yesterday, but it doesn't feel like twenty five years ago ago?

What's that?

What's that amazing?

Well?

Does it does it feel like it's twenty five years ago or does it feel does it even feel like longer than that?

Just like a lifetime?

Really?

You know?

Wow?

Yeah, I mean I've got a daughter that's twenty six, and Rocky's got kids just as old.

So you know, yeah, I mean it was definitely a life It was definitely a lifetime ago.

I mean, I think for us, it's just we're just astounded that we still get to play these songs and that people want to hear them.

And that's that's what's cool for us because it gives us an excuse to get together and play and hang out together, because it's always fun when we do it.

But it's also pretty hard work, you know, I mean, you get you know, it's it's it's a commitment after this long you know, I mean, right, but also a blessing, you know, and just being you know, fortunate to that that people still still like the songs.

Yeah, what tell like talk about kind of just the time then, you know, twenty five years ago of what that was like, you know if I remember right, like I think Jimmy World was starting to like make music with pro tools, Like, were you guys at that point even using pro tools was?

Like what was recording back in two thousand?

What was that?

Like the Hammering process was the first pro tools record.

Because y'all did Reborn on aidats still, didn't you?

Yep?

Yep, correct, Yeah, we did Reborn with with Barry pointer and in Little Rock, and he was using digital tape and it's he was.

He was also using a half inch or quarter inch analog to record the drums.

I think he had like I think he was able to do eight tracks on on analog tape, and so he would sync his analog tape with his aid ads his digital tapes two and that's how we recorded Reborn.

By the time hammering process came around two thousand, he had converted everything over to protein and we were actually the first album, the first recording Barry did on pro tools.

So it was like this weird learning process with all of us.

If you remember Rocky, it was you know, it was it was just a trip.

I'm sure you were just like sitting there looking at what we're everything's in a computer.

I know I was.

I was just like and we kept saying, rewind the tape, Yeah, can you rewind?

That had been really early on because like didn't pro tools, Like, was it maybe like ninety eight or ninety nine when like that started to become like I don't know, but I mean it was pretty I don't know the timeline, but that two thousand feels pretty early.

Yeah, I would think so.

That's impressive.

What was it something when you were I mean, obviously there's probably the just the almost feeling like you're having to speak a new language, where there's probably that awkwardness to it.

But did it when when you're like listening to it, when you're you know, you're recording, and then you're listening back to some of these recordings, did it sound better?

Like I'm just curious, like, was it something where you're like, oh, yeah, I can see why we're we're moving over to this pro tools thing.

For me, I didn't.

I didn't notice that.

And even recording it was still very normal, like the way I was always used to doing it.

It was just it seemed a lot faster, like if you needed to edit something real quick that it was a lot faster than yeah, having to break out the erasers on the the two inch tape or something real doing the find where it was gonna be.

But yeah, it was just way faster and it was much more efficient and awesome to work with anyway.

So he, you know, his his newness to it was also like kind of cool because we're all just like, I don't know if we were the band that he recorded.

We were, Yeah, I mean, I didn't think.

Yeah, I distinctly remember that, Like I mean, I'm sure I know he had it up and running and he was like working on it and messing around with it.

But I think we were the first like actual recording he did.

At least that's the way I remember I remember it.

But yeah, I agree, like I I didn't notice a difference in the sound at all.

It was just the efficiency of edits and you know, not using a physical you know, tape that you had to pull out, mark, cut, put back, splice it back together.

Things like that, or the track limitations.

Either you could five harmonies to something and even if we didn't use them, we could do them and see if we liked them, or you know what it was.

However, many overdobes, it was just go for it.

Yeah, with the analog tape, you're you're limited to you know how many tracks that the the the particular two inch tape holds, which I think you know and in most cases is twenty twenty four.

And then if you went up to you know, forty eight, if you doubled it, then you had two completely different tape machines synced up running together.

We never did that because we didn't have the budget.

But like even even the two inch analog tape, and you see those tapes, they're just massive, and they're these massive reels.

I still have them.

I have all the old ones from our first three records and our first two records rather, and you know, they're just you know, they're just big old reels of tape and they're they were expensive.

So like when we would when we would record something with the label, they would buy as much tape as they thought they needed for an album, but no more.

So it's like you didn't have you didn't have tape to burn because we didn't have big budgets.

Now granted, all the big major labels bands probably had know ten ten reels of tape.

We had two, you know or whatever.

If they needed more, they would splice it together.

You know.

It's it's there's you know, infamous story about how many edits went into recording and Justice for All just just the drums on two inch tape.

So yeah, it sounds like it was just like the efficiency process that just makes this so much better, which I'm probably, like I would imagine like makes it feel then at least from like the label of perspective, like they're getting more bang for their buck because now you don't have to Now you don't have to deal with these You're you're not limited physically by how much tape you've got, Like now you can really spend some like actual time really trying to figure out like what's the sound we what's the sound, what's the like, what's the writing, what's the song structure we really ultimately want?

Yeah, I mean the other thing I remember is like the the drums had to be one one full take on on on tape, Like there was no way to really punch the drums in to edit or to like say, unless unless there became a quiet part where the drums kind of faded out, then you could punch in and start the song back up.

But if it was just a consistent song, you know, heavy all the way through and the drums are just going the whole time if you punch, if you if you were to stop and then punch back in, it would just like you're not hitting the symbol the same way, so it's going to sound like a cut.

And with pro tools you were you were actually able to do that.

So you know, that was the first time where we didn't have to, you know, do a take of the song where the drums are just not not stopped.

If there was something that lanced in like in one part, he'd be like, oh, I want to fix that one part or whatever.

We just we just cut in right there, you know, and with the editing editing capabilities, you were able to blend it to where it sounded natural.

That's just so so different now, which and now it's like it's just so cool to see, you know, there are a lot of albums now, like good albums that are essentially made in a person's bedroom, Like you can just do it from your office at home for the most part, and even if you and then if you want like actual real drums, like you can pretty much do everything vocals, guitars, whatever from somebody, you know, you can do that from your bedroom.

And then even if you want real drums, then you can just you know, record that elsewhere and then you throw that all together.

But it's just like cool to like here, like the way you guys are talking about this, like where we're at now twenty five years later, Like that was the precursor, like the pro tools.

What's like the first time that that was even going to become a possibility that here we now have entire albums that are being made out of bedrooms.

Pretty crazy.

Yeah, Like, it's just it's amazing how that technology just like changes everything.

So when you guys look back now at this album, like, yeah, like, how do you think about it in terms of the career you you know, obviously there's kind of the change in terms of obviously you becoming the lead vocalist for us, and so maybe maybe that kind of maybe you think of like living sacrifice in like certain parts.

Right, So there's the albums that you know you aren't the lead vocalist, and then and then then you obviously do become and then you've got obviously kind of the solid State those at least like kind of you know, late nineties early two thousand solid State records, and then there's the Hiatus and then those last two albums.

But yeah, I'm just kind of curious, like in terms of the way that you think back to Hammering Process kind of being you know, the middle album of all of the discography, How does it how do you think back to it.

Does it feel like this is the most popular album?

Does it feel like this is the album we're most proud of.

Like, I'm just curious, like, when you guys look back at this album, what does it mean to you?

Well, I mean, I Rocky's obviously got a different, completely different perspective since it was the first, first one he was a part of.

But yeah, I mean we were we were very motivated in and and excited to be able to do it, and and it was it was a weird time because we felt like Reborn was just such a strong album and and then the both Chris and Jason decided that they didn't want to want to tour or be you know, part of a full time band anymore.

It was, uh, you know, we were we were kind of like, just like, how are we going to replace these guys?

They're not really replaceable, you know, And so that was the struggle, and it was and honestly it was even the label was just kind of like, yeah, you know, send us demos.

You know, they're like, you know, I think everybody was like a real hype on Reborn, and it was just like, oh, never mind, just kidding, and uh and then uh, I'll never forget this.

We played we were actually I don't think we were recording the record yet, but we maybe we were, but we played Cornerstone ninety nine maybe or no, it was two thousand.

They had asked us to play the main stage.

So Rocky had been playing with us for a while and doing shows and stuff like that and everything, and then Arthur had come on board not long after that.

But this was definitely the biggest stage we'd ever played, and so it was kind of a big deal.

You know, it felt like a big deal for us because it was like twenty thousand people, you know, in what would typically be like a massive amphitheater or arena or something like that.

And so it was like, I remember it was one of the first shows that we played where like I felt nervous again, you know, And but I remember I remember after that show, everybody from the label, including Brandon, was like that was awesome.

You guys, you know, crushed it.

And it was kind of like we kind of put all the doubts, you know, to rest.

You know.

It was kind of like because you know, I mean, bands are are a a you know, like a chemistry of different players and people and how they play together and how they interact and you know, and and and even even perform on stage.

And stuff like that, and there has to be a chemistry, you know, and you know when people leave that, you know, aspects of that gets lost.

So anyways, that was my perspective of was like it was kind of like, oh, we we have to kind of like re kind of rebuild this thing.

But from the get go, me and Lance were writing songs.

You know, I think we had two or three already written before Rocky join and then and then and then Arthur and then and then we you know, we all we all collectively kind of you know like participated in writing you know, the rest of the album, and Rocky himself, like you know, I mean just came up with super melodic parts that were like, you know, very different than anything we'd done before.

And and also from a guy that had just you know, really devoted kind of devoted himself to playing guitar like two years prior.

It was like it was, it was, it was pretty awesome.

I felt I felt super good about the record when we were doing it, and even now if I go back and listen to it, like like I you know, I mean I have a little you know, some some production you know, things that I would rather be better and stuff like that, but you know, I mean, I'm super super proud of it, you know, and and I do think it's I mean, I think it's one of our best albums, and it tends to be one of the albums where, you know, over the last twenty years, you know, the majority that you know, if you come to you see a live set, you know, it's like it's going to be like heavy on Hammering Process songs like usually three or four at the at a minimum, you know, as opposed to any other album where it's going to be like one or two or three or whatever.

Yeah.

The sense I've gotten about the album as somebody who you know has seen the you know, or I've talked to a lot of people who are huge Living Sacrifices, Living Sacrifice fans in particular, and the sense I've gotten is that Hammering Process probably is the favorite album.

Like maybe Reborn is kind of the one they'll hear maybe next to that, but it certainly seems to be the Hammering Process is the one I hear the most, those two for sure.

Yep, yep, yeah, yeah, I mean that's where we gained like a much a much larger fan base starting with Reborn, but then also continuing with hammering process, and a lot of that also is due to the fact that we toured more than we you know, had ever done prior or any other time in our career.

I mean we we were doing you know, one hundred and twenty dates a year, you know, you know, and so playing that much, you know, almost sort of sort of pre Internet.

Definitely pre video on Internet, you know, where people could like post videos and stuff like that.

That's that's how you got out there, and that's how that's how people saw us, you know.

So you know, yeah, rocky for you, Like, how do you look back at this album?

What does it mean for you personally, especially knowing this was your first album with Living Sacrifice.

Oh, it's awesome.

It's always nice looking.

Back and does it kind of feel like you're firstborn?

Yeah, in a lot of ways it is.

Yeah, I'd never like seriously like tried to play lead guitar or anything like that.

And so I look back at that and I'm like, where did I Where did I get some of this stuff from?

Because I I it has to be from like playing live with these guys like before before the hammering process and having to learn what Jason was doing and stuff like that that that had to help me and inspire me to go to certain places and and because I hadn't had to do that before, so it probably just knowing that I could do it really like gave me the like the the energy to like just go for it, you know, that kind of thing.

And that's the first thing, you know, And it's actually a record that that people really like that, So I mean, what I'm doing right now I couldn't have done if I hadn't done.

That, right, Yeah, Like it gave view that like confidence probably even that you could like do other obviously not just Living Sacrifice music, but other music as well.

Yep.

Absolutely, It's just so interesting to me that you go from being a drummer pretty much your whole music career and again, like obviously it sounds like you knew how to play guitar to some degree, but it's interesting that you go from being a drummer to now you're entering into Living Sacrifice as a guitar player.

And like you mentioned, like there's I'm sure Living Sacrifice music that you had listened to that probably helped you kind of get a sense on like what kind of parts do I want to write and how do I want to play in this band?

But I'm curious, like, were there other artists at that time that you were listening to that you kind of had an ear for.

That was what was maybe helping you kind of get a sense on like how what can I bring to the writing of Hammering process.

Well, the first thing was just being such a big fan of living sacrifice.

I'd like to sacrifice for so long.

It's like, I know what living sacrifice sounds like, So that's not you know, it was easy to go there because it's like, this is a living sacrifice riff.

You know, this is definitely inspired by that.

But Second Death or whatever, right, But like several tour, the Shoga Slayer stuff like that, all that kind of stuff was kind of in the mix and kind of always in the background.

So I think everybody was still listening to the Shoga at that time.

Why don't we bruise?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah.

The funny thing about My Sugar is like we had done Reborn.

Reborn was like out and we went on tour in the guy.

I'll never forget it was I think it was Oklahoma City or Oklahoma and Tulsa or Oklahoma City.

It was like one of the first shows of a tour, well first shows of one of one of these tours, and it was kind of we were an in between situation where Corey Putman, Corey Brandon was playing guitar with us and you know, filling in because we hadn't filled that spot yet.

And so the sky brought this cassette tape and it had Destroyer Race Improve on one side and had none on the other side of the cassette tape and oh no, no, no, that's farther back because that was with Jason was still in the vand so it was yeah, it was still it was still Jason and Chris.

Anyways, we heard we heard my Sugar for the first time after we did Reborn, and we just like we're blown away.

We just couldn't believe it.

It was just like what are they doing?

And so.

Yeah, I mean it, it definitely it definitely on us personally, like me and Lance, you know, we you know, we we took little bits and pieces from that, and then you know, you know, when when when Rocky came on board, we were all we all kind of had a vibe for it because also we we we had started kind of started something with because Reborn is completely different than the first three records.

Although there there is a very thrash element to it, still it's not as it's definitely not as like extreme just full on death metal.

And then we were older too, so we were like, you know, in our mid twenties, and we were like, you know, you know, where where do we go from here?

You know, how do we how do we expand you know or build upon this?

And we just weren't very prep We weren't precious about like who we were stylistically.

We were like, you know, within the within the genre of metal, like where can we take this and how can we you know, be more effective as a band.

And in our minds at that time, it was actually to simplify the music to a certain degree, not not not in a songwrite writing way.

I feel like our songs actually our songwriting actually got way better during that time, especially the hammering process, because we we tapped into like more actual song structure and and and we had we had you know, parts and riffs that that actually gave space.

It wasn't just like you know, got the whole time, uh, you know, or double picking the whole time or anything like that.

It was just kind of like, oh, let's open this part up.

It's only going to be bass, guitar and feedback or whatever.

And uh, I loved that about it.

I felt like it gave our music more dynamic presence and and actually like really kind of like challenged me to try to sing differently, which I did do and you know, to varying degrees of success or failure depending on who you ask.

Like, there's like the other that that was the first album where we incorporated like you know, like cleaner vocals and singing and stuff like that.

Right, Yeah, there's definitely elements of sort of like an almost new metal like elements to hammering process, especially in comparison to like some of those previous albums.

And like, honestly, even the like the album artwork feels a little bit like of the time of new metal, Like there's kind of this I don't know, it kind of feels technological, kind of it feels digital that the album artwork, and again in comparison to some of the like very metal looking previous albums.

So I don't know, there was something like stylistically that felt like there was a little bit of a shift with with hammering process in comparison to the previous albums.

Possibly, I mean, I've got a different opinion of that, but oh I'm curious.

I'm curious.

Like I that that's been my impression of the album.

A lot of people share that impression for sure, but like I, well, I think I don't know that any of us knew what new metal was back then.

Well, no, it was pretty much a thing because it was all through the nineties.

Yeah, I mean that that definitely, that definitely wasn't that wasn't necessarily a goal, but like definitely something you know, creating something that had more accessibility and had you know, just song structure, you know, as far as far as far as that goes.

But man, I I don't think I listened to any of those bands.

I would say, like a lot of my stuff, my ideas came more from like post hardcore bands and things like that.

Mmm mmmm yeah.

Like I definitely, like, I definitely don't think it's like a new metal album by any means, but it sounds like it kind of was a thing where if there is any new metal kind of element to.

It, oh yeah, no, people brought that.

Lots of people brought that up, like it's you're not wrong, and and you know it's fine.

I mean, you know, it is what it is now.

I think at the time I was like, what do you mean, we're not new metal?

Right?

It might have been a thing where, like any any sort of metal that had any level of dynamics to it probably was seen as like new metal or alternative metal at the time, just because I know there was and like you said, like there was maybe more dynamic going on.

I think it had to do with some of the simplicity of the riffs.

Mmmm, it's groovy, that's the thing.

Yes, Yeah, that's true.

And new metal was very groovy, yes, especially at that time.

Yeah, all fair so.

And and again like I think maybe like what also, at least for me Drives at Home is the album artwork again just kind of feels like a new metal kind of album artwork.

Again, Like obviously I know that's not what you guys were trying to do, but it just kind of has that digital sort of new metal, turn of the century kind of I don't know what.

We're trying to We just let him go with it.

It's like, oh, that's cool, okay.

Yeah, we weren't really I don't know, we weren't smart enough to like write a you know, a radio record.

But like also, you know, like metalcore was all of a sudden like like it was kind of becoming a thing.

I don't even know if they had that term yet, but like, you know, even going back to Reborn, you know, there was no such thing as metalcore.

But like all then, you know, in the early two thousands, you know, lots of bands came up, and part of that was you know, screaming and clean clean you know, clean vocals and stuff like that.

There was a ton there was a ton of our fans that were really pissed off that we had clean vocals.

There was a website called There's there was a website I did.

I did an interview for oh actually around around the time of Infinite Order called no Clean Singing dot com or something.

Do you remember that Rocky Yeah, like uh and he was just like, uh, he was like, I'm really glad you guys don't have any clean singing on the new record.

That was they've been at order, not not hammering process.

But yeah, there were some people that were just like, oh yeah, you guys really wimped out and whatever.

But we were just man, we were just did they did they see you as like sellouts?

Probably, but we were just trying different stuff.

It's like, man, you know, I mean, you know, five albums, five albums in, it's kind of like, well, you know, just stay the same or or evolved, right.

Was that was that Matt Putman that was like mostly doing the clean singing or was it like a combination of you and him or who was kind of primarily doing the clean singing?

It was it was all of us.

Rocky did some singing, oh wow, uh, Arthur myself, Matt Lance no singing, but all of all, I mean all of us, all of us tried different you know, aspects of it and harmonies.

Like we were just talking about it this weekend when we were together talking about one of the songs that we were working on, you know, for for the for the show, and Andy Rocky reminded me.

He was like, he was like, yeah, that's me.

I did like five harmonies.

Like I'll listen to it and I'll be honest, like I don't know who it is.

Sometimes I'm like, cause it's all like they'll you know, Barrier at the time was he would say, okay, harmonize this way, and he'd stack him so that it sounds like you know big and you know full it right, and so it kind of gets lost.

But also sometimes there was a blend of voices sometimes you know, me and Matt or me and Rocky, and so it's kind of hard to tell, to be honest.

And the other thing we figured out this weekend is that none of us were really very good at it, but but we did it.

We did it anyway.

So what does that mean for a live show?

You know, we'll talk about Fronce Fessia in the second, but what does that mean for a live show?

Like how do you divide that labor of clean singing?

If it sort of was one of those things like we don't actually know who was singing this part, we don't do it.

You just make the crowd do it.

That that's that's actually probably the best thing to maybe do.

We're all we're all just kind of we're basically trying to figure out the best, the best you know, solution because you know, because we don't remember, it doesn't really matter and it's not like it's kind of like we're relearning it anyways.

So it's like whether I sing it originally and I want Arthur to do it now doesn't matter.

It's like, as long as he can do it and play it and sing it, I'm gonna try to get him to do it.

But if I have to do it, then it's just like it's like there's all these other things I have to do, but like one one of the things that's that that is killer.

Speaking of furnish Us, one of the things I love about it is that, you know, we get to play with, you know, other bands that are our friends that we've known for years and years and years, I mean going back twenty thirty years.

And so with each with each appearance that we've done, you know, we will bring somebody up to do something or play with us.

Like Joe sang some stuff on the first Furnace Fest, uh, you know, one of one of our old old songs, and and then a few years ago we had the guys from Demon Hunter come up and we covered a Pantera song.

You know.

I mean, that's that's really like one of the the awesome things about Furnace vest is is you know, seeing something that's that can only happen there because everybody's there in the same spot, and you know, and it'll it'll it'll only happen one time, it will never happen again.

And so we're we're working on on on something like that for this year as well in some of these songs.

And uh, and thankfully I won't have to sing that song if it works out.

Exactly.

That's that's the benefit of it.

Take a little breathe there.

Yeah, what you're talking about though, with furnace Fest is what what Colin and I have talked about a lot when whenever we talk to other bands about furnace Fest or when we like kind of do a reflection episode on furness Fest.

But it truly does feel like a family reunion.

And even though like I might not know everyone there, you can tell that other especially for the bands, especially some of these old legacy bands, Like you can tell that like, oh my god, like I haven't seen that person forever, and like it's just it kind of it feels like that family reunion kind of vibe.

And maybe that's your maybe that's kind of the impression or maybe it's not the impression that you've gotten a furnace Fest, but that certainly is what I've experienced at Furness Fast and I can you know, speak for Colin on.

That absolutely, Yeah, I agree, one hundred percent.

Yeah, it's a it's a cool vibe.

So yeah, we're super looking forward to seeing you guys play furnest Fest because you guys played, yeah, a couple a few years ago, you guys played the Shed.

I'm guessing you guys will probably play the shit again this year, right I believe?

So?

Yes, yeah, you you you are a shed band, Like I'll be on it, Like, as long as Furnace Festo goes on and as long as Living Sacrifice plays at Forncept, You're probably gonna be in the Shed.

It's just you just are kind of naturally a shed band.

I'm down with that.

I'd like the Shed.

That's great?

Is it?

Is?

It like maybe the coolest venue you guys have ever played.

It's one of them, Yeah, the Shed specifically.

Yeah, I mean it's just it's a cool it's a cool environment to be in.

Yeah, I like it.

It's it's it's it's got a great vibe.

It is it is a little it can't be a little echoly, oh very much.

So, yes, yeah that's that's the I remember.

Yeah, I remember a few years ago seeing Zao there and and Dan.

I mean just the echo that Dan's voice had in that building made it sound like he was a demon, like he's just it is nuts how loud that, especially the way Zao was able to get that.

I don't know if they just were naturally louder than everyone, but it just it was so loud in there when they've played, and yeah, it's just but it is that kind of venue.

It's just it's very EQUI but the vibe of it is just so cool where it almost kind of that that's what you remember out of it, rather than it being a little echoy.

Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely.

Well, we're definitely looking forward to We're definitely looking forward to seeing you there playing again.

Probably You Guys is maybe the most popular album, so I think it's I think the turnout for it is going to be nuts, Like I think you guys are just going to pack the shed and it's just going to be one of the cooler shows.

Thanks man, I appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah, we're looking forward to.

It should be fun.

I mean, anytime they ask us to come play, we we definitely want to do it and try to make it happen, you know.

Absolutely well along the lines that you know, I know you mentioned at the beginning that you know, you just were in Arkansas rehearsing with the band, and you know, it's been like thirteen years since the last album.

Is there, Like, I mean, do you guys when you guys do rehearse, do you guys kind of tink around and see like, well, like is there new stuff that we maybe could work on?

Like is any of that happening with with you guys, Like is that something that you guys want to do at some point?

Like just kind of curious from like you know, when you guys get back, like you know, kind of do these rehearsals or practice or maybe even when you guys are apart, like maybe there's just times where you're just playing a riff and you're like, oh, that's a living sacrifice rift there, like maybe maybe the juices start flowing.

I don't know, like, is that a thing that is happening for you guys?

Definitely, Brock, I'll let you answer that.

Yeah, there's definitely some tinkering around sometimes.

So there's a lot of there's a lot of good, good ideas that we have to flesh out in the studio and it's just it's just it's just a matter of time and uh availability, things like that.

It's sounds like the motivation then, is there for you guys to put up something at something.

Yes, yeah one love it, love it.

Well, whenever that happens, I can assure you I will gladly, gladly be one of the first people that listens if you would let me, because I'm just I'm really stoked about anything that would be new Living Sacrifice.

I mean, that would be a big deal for you guys at this point.

I mean even if it wouldn't come out for another year or so, Like, I mean, it would be a big deal for you know, something that come out thirteen fourteen, however many years later after that last album.

Has it been that long since?

Yeah, I think, Yeah, it's pretty sad.

I think we need to hold out for twenty years and just like you know, really really just like make it special.

Yeah we got I mean, have you guys been.

Anything?

What's that that's true?

Well, I was just gonna like I know that there was the lost song that came out like eight years ago or whatever, but like in terms of like new stuff, I'm trying to think if there's been anything since like twenty thirteen, No, whenever.

Nothing, Wow, so boom.

We'll see So we're we're getting there.

We're getting there.

Yeah, so yeah, we'll see what happens.

Well yeah, well whenever it does.

Yeah, I'm a big I'm going to be big.

We always we always say we we we we want to do it, and then you know, just gotta gotta make it happen.

Well, I would imagine with like where I mean, let's be honest, you'all are getting a little older.

I would imagine the amount of output you can do is probably gonna be just as slow as as these old bones move.

So it's probably going to just take a little bit longer than normal then, you know, when you were in your twenties.

Yeah, I don't think that's necessarily it.

I think it's just uh, you know, life and you know, desire to you know, you know, just make it happen and be creative, you know, I mean, you know, we don't have to play that fast anymore.

We can we can write a slower metal song.

Rocky.

Rocky's writing riffs all day long.

That's his job, and he's definitely put you know, put forth like some great, great demos even specific to us.

So it's it's really it's really just about you know, taking the time to find the right situation studio wise and pick a weekend and you know, take the days and all that stuff.

It's I mean, it's definitely logistical as as much as it is you know, you know, creative, but also you know, the creativity has to be there, like we're we you know at this point, you know, I mean we we we don't really want to put out in anything that's like subpar at all, and so you know, it's it's it's gotta it's gotta meet like that that threshold that that we've set, you know, overall of years.

Totally that that absolutely makes sense.

So well, whenever it does happen, I'm here for it.

So I'm I'm excited.

So I'm sure it's probably still gonna be a little bit of time, but I'm glad to know at least the creative juices are flowing and at least the motivation is there.

So that that's pretty that's pretty sick.

Are you guys?

Are you guys ready for Top five?

So, Rocky, you will do Top five most influential albums, and Bruce, you will do top Guilty Pleasure artists, your top five guilty pleasure artists.

But Rocky, do you want to go first with your your top five most influential albums?

Okay, I'm not sure this would be like in order, but I'll just try to go.

Oh, that's really fine.

I'll go with the head Justice Fro Metallica, South of Even.

Oh what a what an album?

I will say that we get a lot of Metallica, but that might be one of the ones that are is lesser named.

That's too bad.

Boom, what did I do?

Pantera, Vulgar Display Power, Live a Sacrifice self titled and oh, of course Primus Sailing this Season?

Oh okay, how's that?

I never would have guessed you would have there.

I mean, that's a great record.

Yes, it is sure that you were a metal head through and through like that, that is that is as metal of a list as metal gets.

I agree.

Do you like do you even listen to anything outside of metal?

Oh?

Yeah, all kinds of stuff are there?

Like, is there an album that has like maybe like really speaks to you that isn't actually a metal album?

But like, yeah, is there another like album that like is really you know, important for you.

But but isn't metal.

Not that I can think of offhand?

Well, I'm sure there is.

What about what about some of the movie what about some of the movie soundtrack stuff that that you like, like the Stephen Carpenter not Stephen Carpenter, John Carpenter.

I love all that stuff.

John John Carpenter stuff.

Yeah, that's that's almost.

Like and he wrote, he wrote and he wrote that stuff too, didn't he?

Yeah, he writes it.

What's that?

Say it again?

Yeah?

What's that?

Oh?

I I just I just you know, I was just it's he's he's it's it's awesome that he writes.

And I don't know if he records it, but he writes that stuff.

That's pretty pretty amazing.

Oh yeah, he's awesome.

He's that's that's as far as the movie composition stuff, that's that's that's the top guy for me.

Who who's your favorite modern guy like out of like say John Williams or Hans Zimmer or somebody that I'm not familiar.

With, somebody you're not familiar with, Well, I don't know.

I mean maybe I am familiar with it.

I don't know.

We don't know, but like like when I think of movies that everybody thinks of John Williams and Hans Zimmer, you know what I'm saying, because they're like the big ones, the big guys, right, who else?

I mean, Danny Elfman, He's still, He's still.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Mmmm ah yeah yeah, right a, it's.

A good list.

It's a good list.

I there does seem to sometimes be a metal slash like movie soundtrack crossover.

I've like noticed like a lot of metal fans happen to also be really into either like classical music or just like movie soundtrack kind of music.

So that's You're not the first person that I've you know, that's a big metal head who's also really into that stuff too.

So Bruce, you're ready for guilty Pleasures.

Let's let's let's get a little list going of of the albums or maybe not necessarily the albums, but the artists that maybe you know, you like to, you like to listen to, but you know, you know, people like Rocky You're gonna make fun of.

You for it, Yeah I know, right, yeah, I mean, honestly, the only person that gets made fun of it in our band is Arthur because he deserves it.

Fair enough, fair enough.

Arthur likes some really stupid music.

Exactly, and he's not even here to defend himself, which is great.

Yeah, no, that's it's perfect.

He would just be like he look, Ghoul Moon whatever, dude.

He listens to like country music, and probably not even good country music, you know, not like Chris Dapleton or anything like that.

He just likes the goofy You should hang out with my parents.

He likes the goofy stuff.

And then I'm kidding, he has he likes.

He likes a lot of good stuff, but he also likes a lot of you know whatever.

I you know, I guilty pleasures.

I don't even know.

I mean, I grew up listening to hair metal and that's like none of that stuff's cool anymore.

But like Rat and Docking and oh I kind of I kind of fell off right around the time like Poison came out, but like and that's because that's when I started, you know, definitely moving more heavy, like like into thrash and stuff like that.

So right around eighty seven, you know, my my tastes were shifting.

Plus plus when that when that Poison album came out.

I didn't like the fact that I literally thought they were they were females on the on the cover, and I was like, these guys are trying to trick me, and I didn't like that.

So you're telling me and you're not into Brett Michaels.

I mean, I'm sure he's a nice guy in all, but I mean he was he I mean he looked like a really good looking chick on that record and.

So yeah, and so he was he was like balding then because he was definitely wearing that uh that headband even then.

Oh no he wasn't.

No, no, no, no, he wouldn't.

He wouldn't.

Oh he wasn't.

Okay, no, he had it.

He had a beautiful head of hair and and and beautiful.

Well he definitely lost it pretty quickly out.

And beautiful poudy lips.

He was.

He was a handsome here's a handsome man that looked like a woman.

Anyways, I didn't like that.

It was no good Uh.

Uh is there any like, is there any modern stuff that you're You're like, Okay, I kind of like this, but I probably shouldn't, or like I'm at least gonna get made fun of for it.

No, nothing's off, nothing's off bounds or out of bound of Swifty's.

You're not a swiftye.

No, Like I don't.

I really don't gravitate towards pop music at all.

Like I just okay, it just doesn't I don't know why.

It just doesn't do anything for me, you know, I mean probably you know, some of the you know, the weirder stuff that I listened to is like Radiohead and Sunny Day Real Estate and you know bands like that from like that are more just whatever, experimental or whatever, just not heavy, and I I probably don't listen to I don't listen to a ton of metal these days.

Definitely not newer bands.

I don't the new, the new.

Some of the new stuff like is actually it sounds like it's it's blending pop elements, and like the singers like they sound like they're they're really you know, good singers.

They sound almost like a boy band type singing situation, but with heavy guitars and just I mean, it just doesn't do much for me or whatever.

I mean, I know there's some killer bands out there.

I'm just you know, I I just gravitate towards just older, older, rock stuff, you know, and and and and things like that.

I mean, so guilty pleasure.

I don't know, I just I don't you know.

I would say the goofiest stuff I listened to was like, you know, all the hair metal, you know stuff you know, was singing about chicks and things like that.

But you know, I mean I was fourteen at the time.

You know.

I will say DJ definitely missed his calling being in one of those bands, because that dude looked like he could have been in Poison definitely, so, I mean, but he had he had to get stuck with you uglies.

I'm just kidding pretty much.

Well anyway, well my Cameron to say, oh here one second, I mean, yep, you could as long as you can hear me.

But yeah, what what do you guys want to plug?

Uh?

Well, we have a we have a vinyl reissue coming out that that Rocky remixed for our third album, and Habit.

We got that.

We were able to get the tracks dumped from those who were done on digital adapt tapes to pro tools and then sent off to Rocky.

Rocky remixed the album.

The album's sounded pretty good to begin with, but it sounds even better now with like modern you know, mixing capabilities and everything like that.

But that vinyl is going to be coming out very soon.

It's like one of the last of our reissues for the first three albums.

We were trying to get it done for last year, which would have been the thirty thirty year anniversary of that particular record it came out in nineteen ninety four.

And yeah, you know, new stuff coming you know out, you know someday one year.

In one year, I mean one year.

In the future, could be next year, it could be two years, could be three, four or five years, who knows.

Okay, okay, love it well, I'm excited for it.

Fornus Beast is going to be a heck of a show, so it'll be fun.

Fun to see you guys there.

And yeah, just love love this album.

Again, there's probably a reason why it might be your most popular.

So just thanks so much for chatting more about the hammering process and what we'll see you in a couple of months.

Awesome, Thanks Mason, Yeah go, you won't knows