And That's what You Really Missed with Jenna.

And Kevin An iHeartRadio podcast.

Welcome to and That's what You Really miss Podcast.

It's a very exciting day.

We have an old friend here who's maybe one of the biggest stars of Hollywood right now.

John, I'm true.

John is just a great guy.

He's just a good, good person person and I'm so happy we get to chat with him.

And I think you will.

How he is when we talk to him now is how he is all the time.

Yes, the difference, there's no ego.

There's just the love for the craft exactly, love for his friends, love for his coworkers, love for story and what he's doing, and family and that goes into every single thing he does.

Also, forgot he was around us during Glee.

Oh yeah, my way I think my way in was like he was doing were like he's doing the Justin Bieber like movie, which was one of the first of those movies, right and he did it the best.

And he was just around us and I remember him with Harry and you and everybody, and he's just the fact and like his memories of Glee also are so sweet and just like watching us and seeing us so like, I'm I'm still astounded, and he remembers that, but that was such a you know, and.

One breath I am and one breath I'm not because that's the sum No, I know exactly.

Well.

I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation with John.

Yeah, that's all I have to say.

Yes, strap In, this is John.

I'm chu director of Wicked and Wicked for Good.

Where are you right now?

I am in New York City?

Oh same, Yeah, I know it's crazy because I was here only for Crazy.

Wh Change is the musical.

So we have a twenty nine hour read, which I've never done because I've never directed a skill before.

So it's a wild that's so exciting.

Wow.

Wow, we have a whole cast of people.

It's been like today we do like a run through of it and it's gonna be really fun.

Why do I sneak into that?

That is incredible.

Wow, that's really cool.

It's good to see you.

Yes, thanks for doing.

This great, thank you.

It's been I've waited a long time to do this.

Guys watched I've listened.

Oh John, Oh my god, the business man at the moment your podcast.

How are you doing?

Like how do you feel mentally physically through all of this, Like do you.

I feel, you know, exhausted.

But as I saw in some TikTok inspirational video, how blessed are we to be exhausted for the work that we dreamed of since we begged the universe for it since we were kids.

Yeah, I'm like, thank god we get to tell stories.

Yeah, and I got five kids, that's crazy.

I gave year old, six year old, four year old, two year old, and one year old.

And so the exhaustion is like beautiful, Like you know how it is, Jenna, Like it's just you watch someone discover the world every day.

Yeah, it's a cynical and annoyed.

It can annoying sometimes it can be.

It can be like my little boys doing this poking thing where he just like pokes you instead of like holds your hand.

And my wife's like, how do I tell him?

Like it's really really annoying.

Like give him options, maybe say my head instead.

I don't know, And then I try to do it like, oh, that's a great idea, John, let me just try to do that, and he was like, nah, no, that's my life basically.

Yes, when I think about like how are you or anyone in your position.

You have young kids, you're also juggling a billion work things and also trying to like because you work in a creative field, so like, how do you keep your creative And I was like, you know what, whenever I want something done, like I know, Jenna is like the best person to call, or like anybody with kids because either awake already.

Yeah, but also you have to be organized.

You have to know how to like still as much little free time you have with whatever you want to be doing.

It's like Christian as possible.

Yes, yeah, you just roll with it.

You just roll with it, you go, you have solutions as quickly as possible.

Probably what makes you such a good director.

You're like, here's three options for you instead of the one.

Yeah, I couldn't tell what which which came first.

Now it's all blurred.

But I'm pretty sure that directing helped my parenting.

My parenting actually helped my my directing more because I think I think being a parent is really creative and I think that it actually set rates.

Like I used to get stressed because I used to think about the movie or the project when I went home.

When I'm sleeping when I get up and it's like that's that's actually more exhausting, and that actually is a problem.

But when I when you come home and you got to change a diaper, you gotta like calm a fight down or something.

You leave all that stuff gone and you're still I mean, you can still jump back in, but but yeah, there's a separation and your brain gets to rest.

And I think that that's amazing and I'm more creative than ever for sure.

Oh wow, that's great, And to share this journey is insane.

I can say, hey, see these drawings, like now, these are going to become real things.

And then my kids come to the set and they're like, oh now and feel the fabric, look at the things.

And then you go and you and you.

They go to school and now their friends have t shirts of the drawing that they saw back in the day and they were there, they were actually on the yellow brick road.

I think, I don't know how that really messes with their head, but I think you dream and it happens, and that's a natural thing of the world.

And actually, as a kid, when our imaginations are so explosive and everything is an opportunity to use your imagination when you're a kid.

Also as an adult, boat we have to remind ourselves of that.

I think, yeah, and yeah, that has to be such a crazy thing because most of us are like, you know, using like cardboard boxes and like sheets that we found to build costumes and like, at least I was like building sets and things in my house.

And then they actually get to walk on like people at the top of their craft doing like the biggest thing possible.

Well, you know, as a as a kid, myself and we would go to see shows, musicals, opera, ballets, whatever it was, watching movies.

You know, when you don't know much about the business.

You also don't the only access point you have is like the acting side of it.

So you're in musical theater, you do all this stuff, and then later you learn, oh, there's like a whole other side.

Yeah, like do this thing called directing.

And my kids definitely know like, oh there's like directing, there's like in front and behind the camera.

They understand what all the things are, at least the concepts of and so I think that's really interesting.

We'll see how that affects.

Someone actually the producer, Okay, exactly.

I love to tell you speaking of little kids, I'm curious to hear, like I just I can imagine somebody who studied the craft and you know study, you know, production and TV in school and all of these things, and just was immersed in it as a kid.

Like what would that John say about John?

Now, like did you manifest this?

Did you know?

Or were you like would he be like shell shocked?

Well, I have the weird answer and probably the more realistic answer.

Well, give us the weird one.

The weird answer is, yeah, I knew.

I feel like I've already lived this life, and I felt like I've seen all of this before and I was on a journey and I had to stick to it.

And that's that's what I made myself.

Whether it's real or not, I don't know, but I really believed it.

Since I was probably nine years old, I did see this life and in a weird way, did it make me sort of just know that like whatever path I'm on, it felt like a book that I was just on certain chapters on and once I get through this chapter is actually the next good part.

And then I would tell myself this.

So again, whether it's true or not, I don't know.

But I sort of made myself believe that that that's how I was going to survive all of this.

So every bad moment was I knew, oh no, don't worry, You'll be fine.

And for some reason, for some I know that's not that doesn't necessarily work, but for some reason, I did keep going, and I because of that, I did get here to this point.

But I don't think that that's like a philosophy of life.

I don't know, but that's that's what I think now.

The reality of it all, I think, deep down, I don't believe I'm any of this, and that I have to work really hard to catch up to the image or what people think or what my even my movies sort of present to the world.

So I'm always but I like to try to live up to that.

So I'm always chasing, chasing this thing.

I feel like that's probably that sounds healthy, both of those, like the balance of both of those.

Like if you had one of that the other night, I would be worried about you.

But because you have both, in my professional opinion, because I will.

Be hungry, right like it keeps hungry if something's chasing me and I'm chasing something and something's chasing me, and I think that's an okay balance.

I've never felt so chased that I'm just scared.

But I will say that the thing that I think is the difference for me, and sometimes I feel shame about it, is that my entry point into movie making.

I grew up loving movies, watching movies, all those things, but my entry point was making actually making movies because I was given a camera and I was started to make stuff before I knew even my full love of cinema.

I was just it was a process of making and I fell in love with the shooting.

I fell in love with the editing.

I fell in love with delivery, showing sharing to me that I just knew that I was going to do that for the rest of my life, whether whether I was going to get paid for it or not.

If I wasn't getting paid by a studio, I'd be making wedding videos and bar mits videos the way I did in high school.

Like I get just as much enjoyment of videoing my children and videoing someone's wedding than making wicked.

To be honest, like there is something the process is what I love at any scale.

It is what I'm addicted to, and so I guess maybe that's there's a calmness to that that win or lose.

I still got my camera and I still got my editing and knowing about that.

So I don't know, maybe that's the that's the part that I lean on often and and I get embarrassed with that sometimes because some people want me to be so in love with cinema that I know every director and every shot and everything, and or they want to know what's your dream job, like what's the movie that you're ultimately going to make?

And I'm like, I just I'm not that person.

Wicked is probably the closest thing to that dream like image.

But I but I am.

I.

I like to exercise this tool and I love to find new things.

I love to reflect what I'm going through in my life through it, and I love to discover my life through it.

So wow, Yeah, I mean that sounds like something we all can learn from, though, especially in the entertainment business.

So forget the shame, John, because I mean the process, the experience of it, of why we actually love it.

I think so often like we can bear ourselves down in like comparison, compare ourselves to others or going for oh, I want my movie to look like this other movie that was done by being able to actually like have the tangible thing of being on a set or at a wedding or whatever it is and actually doing it.

If that's if that's your way in like that sounds like a really sort of wonderful thing to be able to fall back on.

Yeah, I think I appreciate.

I think I love the collaboration as well, learning new ways to figure out how to get better collaboration or get access to those things while also having my vision.

I think I love the technical part of like how do you communicate and finding finding the right words.

Yeah, we talked to Chris Scott, who we love, saying I love and sweet man, I feel like you're like Oprah and I'm alhamas I was Oprah Oprah because and I swear this goes back to collaboration, because the whole joke, like I have some of my friends like we all want to be the Oprah where like if one comes up, everybody comes up.

And I feel like you have done that in so much of your collaboration and in your friendship and there's a lot of overlap there and someone like Chris Scott, who choreographed Wicked and for Good and The Heights, all these things, someone you've known.

We've all known each other for so long.

Long, long time now, and it's but.

It's really beautiful to see and as we've all sort of grown up in this business where loyalty and friendship often play second fiddle to like, you know, yeah, getting a step ahead or like whatever it may be, and building collaboration and building teams especially, I think something for like these Wicked films where it's a gigantic team, where do you start?

And like how in that process of building the collaboration is Chris Scott front of mine?

Because this is someone you have and you have a dialogue with friendship and working dialogue with, like how how does.

That work well?

First of all, even just to give your audience some context for us, we were babies when we all met, and you were even more babies when you guys became superstars.

So it's kind of crazy that it was on the Paramount lot.

I think lot some of us met me and Kevin maybe we met right before that at Adam Savanni's house or something like, Yeah, I played Moose and step up to the Street, which was my first first movie.

And then all my friends Harry Shum got onto this show called Glee, this pilot that everyone was on.

Danny my ad for my first movie was also the eight There and Zach and all these people.

And suddenly and I was editing g I Joe, Oh no, maybe I was editing Justin Bieber never Yes on the lot, on the Paramount lot, and they are these group of crazy kids running around shooting, shooting a show.

I was like, what is going on?

And then it becomes this massive hit.

Of course I watched it on that what was at a Super Bowl Sunday the PHO, watched everybody wait for the whole summer for this show to come out.

It was just so I will never forget the joy and the excitement of this new show with these new this new generation of people that were going to show us how musical theaters have done.

And I was I just I always think, to me, watching that become so mainstream and so beloved showed me that this was like that it was still in our blood here.

Yeah, like have joy and root for each other and be silly and funny all the things and be serious about real things.

That the combination was so cool.

And then to watch you guys grow as people and have your own families and the things, and and it was just it's just been like, really, when you talk about people, I think about that a lot.

Gus we're supportive of each other and they're for each other.

And and I watched just from the other side of the door, you guys do all that.

I love that a lot of those people are part of my family too.

Likewise, like I mean, we I think we met during the Adam and Miley like dance battle.

Yeah, we had a YouTube dance YouTube dance because I was really close with Adam's brother v.

We're in a boy band together and a great band.

Oh yeah, And so I met you through you filming dance, do you know what I mean?

Like to me, your storytelling has always been like music driven.

Yeah, And so like on the flip side, we've all gotten to watch you like go from project to project and see your growth and see your family grow, and it's been like this wonderful, like beautiful experience and also something for all of us to be so proud of where it feels like like one of us, you know.

And yeah, also because like you're just I know, people see you and you're like, he's this big, huge director, which you are, but also you're just like the kindest, like normal, approachable human, which I also think is really just lovely to see.

And I think you also see that reflected in like the crazy media press tours of it all how which also goes back to you know, my original question about like collaboration.

Because you're at the top, you set the tone for everything, and just knowing you as a human, it makes so much sense to me of why everybody feels this way.

Yeah, sort of under your stewardship.

But you know, I've never been and I I haven't directed a huge studio films, and so I know things start at the top and you hope they trickle down, but I'm not sure what the intentional or not that process.

It's yeah, it's intentional.

Yes, it's intentional because in order from what I found is that I work best when there isn't people trying to crowd the court.

I've discovered through all these years that when everybody when there's when someone who takes like the oxygen out of the room in a bad way or an ego way, or distrustful way.

I don't.

I can't step in like I don't have like I don't think it's worth it.

I'm like, I have my ideas, and I hope people like want these ideas, and I'm going to go give it to you.

And I work best when when I have an environment of people like John, what do you What do you have to say?

Like, let's open up the court for you and go run.

It's like Forrest Gump, like just go John, and I can do that.

But when people are blocking and they don't, they're taking the space.

I don't take the space.

So I've just learned to like And doesn't mean I find people that don't say anything or something.

I find people who don't feel threatened by hearing other ideas but also have a vision and who are not pushovers, because I don't like someone who just floats anyway.

I want you don't want a yes man.

I don't want a yes man.

I want people who love what they do.

That's probably the number one thing that you love what you do.

You'd willing to stay up four in the morning or get up at four in the morning just to do it because it's your life's dream.

And we get to do this and you recognize that this is it that we have in our life, because that also makes feels my passion because I love what we get to do.

And so I start there like who we bring in got to be the best of the best.

There's no compromise of that.

But you also have to love it.

It can't be some other obsession.

It has to be this.

And then we start communicating at our currency level.

So I when I meet someone or I bring them in, I need to understand that we that we don't have to have the same currency of why we're here, but we have to.

I have to understand that what I want or what I'm aiming for fulfills or is in parallel or whatever cross sections your currency for why you're doing it.

Why do you want to do this?

What do you need from this when you come out of this, Oh, Cynthia, you want to try something new, put on a new thing, or go worldwide or whatever it may be.

Does that cross over with my vision of retelling the American fairy tale and questioning that, Oh, yes, you want to talk about it in this way, but I want to talk about Okay, So the combination is going to be really interesting and you are Brande.

Oh you've never let a movie before.

Okay, I've directed people who haven't done it.

I know the difficulties of that.

I know how to protect you.

But I also know that you have to be ready for this.

Can I see those little do I?

Can I see the hints of knowing that she can be ready for this?

Away she wait ready for this.

It's like old baby.

Yeah, and then we can work together to find that and so anyway that that's where it starts.

And and then when we go I'm like, I love to visualize and communicate.

It's always communication.

That's number one when we're making a creative, collaborative, giant project.

And so I fill rooms with with with words, with images, with models, with videos that I'm always cutting together, so everyone has as much of stuff in the digital soup and in the physical soup as possible.

So whatever we're every and I give a lot of people freedom to yes and everything.

I tries to say no as little as possible, just to like see where we go.

Yeah, then we can then we can really minimize and and and actually like focus and have clarity on what we're trying to say.

Yeah, yeah, Wow.

When you're like planning something that is this big, Yeah, as is bohemous.

What is the I guess maybe like the workflow for you in terms of when you're getting what's coming up first?

I guess right, like the production design is casting is figuring out where you're going to shoot this damp thing?

Like what?

And are all these things happening happening simultaneously or is there like a process for you in which I need to know this before I can do this, and I need to know that before that.

Yeah, at a certain point, things are happening all the same time.

But but but in terms of layering, it starts with the script.

Like I get on board, they call me, they what do you think about Wicked?

I was like, yeah, I'm down.

Yeah, so you approached about it because there's been so many you know, like almost it's almost happened so many times.

Yes, yes, And then like ring ring, I was watching those.

Same articles and reading those things that I actually I actually email my my team like what's going on with Wicked?

Dude?

They keep missing these dates and I want to see that movie.

And by the way, is that a sign that they're having trouble?

Because I know how to make this movie?

I know exactly what to do, Like I knew I knew what this movie was since I first saw it.

What was that feeling?

Like, what was the thing?

Like?

This is how, this is how I would do it.

I know your way into it.

My way into what it was.

It was so much the relationship between these two women.

I mean, that's obvious now, but when I first saw it was before I was on Broadway, and it was so clearly, like, Wow, that is so smart that you're reinventing the American fairy tale from the inside out through the relationship of these two women, of bringing two very different women together and finding their power together.

And I'm like me being in college at the time that I watched it, going through film school, I under and letting go of my childhood American fairy Tale of the Wizard of Oz and ushering in a new idea of friendship.

What happened to those friends that you had for all those years?

What happened to the person you were all those years who you're turning into.

What is the new?

Do you still have that optimism or is the world actually way different than what you thought and you're going to change because of it?

Like all those questions were happening at the same time, and a musical form.

And I was going to film school, so I saw the shots.

I saw the world of Oz is not a dream.

It's a real physical place, and these are real relationships, and like, let's get in, let's get in, like.

To make it into your head already, Yeah, and never thinking in a weird way more like a fan fiction thing that would be so cool, right, yeah, but like it's probably your subconscious over all those years.

It's like, and the idea of a musical as the biggest, most epic musical ever created by Hollywood, Like yeah, like show that we still can do it and use visual effects and sets and stunts and live singing in ways that we can give theater to everybody, but also cinema to everybody.

That all of them are like one upping each other and and as big as any and as big a swing as any musical ever had.

Yeah, to me, like that was that was And they came to me during COVID lockdown, So in a way, we didn't even know if movies were going to be made anymore.

Like, are people are ever going to go back to the movie theater?

Yeah, go for it.

John.

Let's see, we think we think musicals are dead, we think movies are dead.

We're not sure we all going to touch each other or see each other again, but if you want to try.

It was also that weird era like right after that, where there are a couple like musicals that like people weren't advertising as musicals.

Yeah, you know, there's like that whole thing where it's like what is everybody doing?

Yeah, I do have I do have a philosophy about that though, because we advertise musicals and so there is an issue.

There is an actual physical issue because every time I'm like, guys, show all the music, and like you try to do all the music because it's getting crazy.

Change is lyrics.

If you try to do like like trailers have to be so ancise.

The moment you put a song in, you better stick to that song a little longer, just switch, and the moment you switch, it's like mayhem, and then the words better be right and they're not always in the right place.

So there is an actual technical that we never talked about because.

Let the people know, this is my soapbox.

Hey, it's way more difficult.

You can put a dance movement in something fine sure, but actually physically a person.

You know, in trailers, we're constantly cutting different things together and different word together to give a cohesive, simplified idea of the movie.

That people get it when you have songs, they're just not that like concise.

Yeah, sorry, it's fair.

That makes a lot of sense.

Yes, that's why, like we have we actually have a couple.

If you watch the Wicked trailer evolution, there are some that we just were like, okay, now let's do the version where we just do all the music and it's like one actually I thought went really well and I was like, that's actually awesome.

But you have to have such a talented music editor in your and that's not part of the movie.

This is part of a whole nother department of market.

Yeah, all these companies.

Yeah, that's someone who really understands it, and the composer has to approve it.

The original composer, Stephen Schwartz, doesn't like, sorry, you guys, start over and you just spent six weeks so Steven anyway, it's a.

Lot, guys, every piece, every piece is that The.

Thing about a musical is that people don't realize the technical how technical it really is.

Because if you're doing the musical right, it's supposed to look really easy.

It's supposed to never look sweaty, almost not be a musical at all.

You just feel it, every ounce of it, every rhythm, every can ruin it, every sound effect.

How much folly do you hear when they close the door and they're singing the song, or do you not do that at all?

And every filmmaker has their own philosophy about that.

You guys on the show had a philosophy at how sound and music should play together or how reality and those things relat together.

And every filmmaker has to make that choice, if they even know they had to make that choice.

Some people who are starting a musical have never made a musical.

Suddenly you're in it and you're like, oh that, there's not like a rule.

You're like, no, it's like, how what do you go?

It's a taste.

It's a taste level thing.

Yes, and sometimes it takes you a whole movie to figure out what your taste or what your strategy is with this, and that by the end you're like, oh, I'm done, i gotta do another one.

And then people don't do another one because they're too scared.

Yeah, I was actually thinking about those little things you were saying about sound.

So you and I ran into you and Chris at the Grove when Wicked came out last year, and I remember you ran.

You ran out of the theater because you wanted to like adjust the sound because it was quiet.

For the record, I think the Grove has terrible sound anyway, they always have.

But you don't have to say that.

I was saying, I.

Never go to that theater.

That was the one time I went to that theater because I already had tickets with my friends.

But I boycott that location anyway.

But I when I went to see it in New York at a different AMC, and the sound was great, and I was thinking about and no, good deed, there's so much going on.

There's so much you know, sound effects and fully things happening, but you can still hear every every instrument, Cynthia's voice coming through and like that perfect balance.

I was like, oh, I don't know what John's on, but whatever is happening, it is all sounding correct in my ears like it is.

I'm seeing and hearing every single thing.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, that's our mixed team is amazing, Andy Nelson, Simon Hayes, who's recording the live, actual singing live, unreal, and are John Marcus are mixed everybody, and we're all in the room together, and we already because we did in the Heights, we already have a full philosophy about how much we want to hear.

I want it to feel real.

I want to feel like it's emerging from from a from a person's so it feels like dialogue, but of course it escalates again, so and then how much the wing flaps interrupts her lyrics or things like that.

That's but I also know how important it is to hear those lyrics.

There's one lyric in there that I wish it was more clear, but we look went through all the live versions and couldn't get quite the clarity, and so you know, we're just eking it in.

But yeah, anyway, yeah, so it's a constant, constant tweaking there.

Obviously, you have like two of the best singers in the world who led this with you.

Yeah, I know, it's just like it's not important at all, but no, they absolutely truly incredible, And so I know that they've spoken about this in press where you guys made the decision that you were going to sing live, So was there in your mind was there any other option before they were cast where you're like, oh, we might have to pre record this, or were you open to the pre recording or were you passionate about the live being element being there because of you know, the performances as it's been done before in other movie musicals.

Yeah, when we were doing In the Heights and we're shooting here in Washington Heights, it was a beautiful experience because I have nothing against pre records, like I love pre records.

If the intention of the scene is in the pre record, there's a version of the pre record that you do before you even start.

That's part of the rehearsals and part of the things.

And then you discover what you're doing, and then you should record re record that.

Yes, oh yeah, the money to rerecord it, you should be doing that, yea.

And I think sometimes people don't do that, and so then you feel that separation.

Yeah, but in the Heights, we would rerecord it every few weeks because our guys are in rehearsals, things would change and so it stayed in parallel with us.

And then when we're on set.

What we realized is there's nothing.

It's hard to do live because there's buses and cars and people that don't give us here in New York that you're shooting a musical.

And yeah, so it was really hard to do live all the time.

But there were moments where we got to do it, or when we felt like it was clear enough and you could you could record and see and get and possibly get something from this.

And that was an amazing experience, which meant we have We had a pianist every day on set ready to go, and we did more live than I expected in here in Washing Heights, on the streets and suddenly you're singing in the middle of a sidewalk or in a subway and there's a live pianist and your everyone's and no one can hear it, and you're just hearing the vocals, but you could hear it in your ears, the on your on your calms to the pianists and her or him and I and I always loved that.

I felt like that's where we were getting the juice.

And so with these these ladies of course coming in, I was like, they can do it, and we're on sound stages essentially like we're not going.

To a placement.

Yeah, you try it, but I don't.

I don't know how they feel.

They may want their their vocals super pristine, and we're just gonna have to do what we did and in the heights where we just keep re recording until we find the right one and maybe even after once we shot the scene, we recorded again.

So that was the technique we began with record the pre records when they first arrived because I wanted They had never gone through Wicked School with Stephen Schwartz and Steven Arimas, so I go through Wicked School.

Just just do it.

Just get to know them.

I we will.

We have not even had rehearsals yet, so then you come to me and then we'll discover the character.

So just take it as like a physical, uh, muscle memory exercise.

And they did that with Stephen and Stephen, and then they also did muscle movement exercises with Chris Scott to just get movement in and so he could assess what they can or cannot do.

He's getting languages from them, like movement languages of where they're thinking.

Even though none of them have talked to me.

Yet.

I mean we've met, but not really.

Like then we got into a room and we start Then me and the girls start working on these scenes and we start to discover these characters and we're like, oh, actually, yeah, Alphabet actually moves more than we expect from the Wicked Witch to the West.

She actually has more dignity for herself than you think in the joke of the Wicked Witch of the West.

Because since it's bringing that, okay, that means her movement is different.

So bring that to your rehearsals next time and let me all come in there and make sure he understands what we're trying to talk about here.

Yeah, and bring that into the show.

Oh, Steven's trying to push you to be have that cackle, but actually that cackle should come from a place of joy actually, and that it's like it's like a laugh that you're a belly laugh.

So like, rather than the iconic laugh, do the belly laugh version, and so let me talk to Steven.

So we do it step by step as we build both and so by the time we actually get to set, we know all of it.

We probably haven't re recorded that voice, and so we were like, let's just record it live.

We have the best Simon Hayes, the best recorder is, you know, on set for live stuff.

He did le Mis, he did all these things, so he's like, I could do it, John.

So he's hiding mics in their hats, and sometimes we have mics on their skin because there's no clothes up here, and we're just painting those out later.

So we're trying to get the clearest sound, and sometimes that's annoying.

Sometimes the girls are like I can feel the weight, and you're like, I know, but we're doing this live, like I need a mic somewhere, and so we're constantly trying to figure things out, and then you record it and you realize, oh, the live version is absolutely one that's connecting.

Let's just do it the next day.

Let's do it the next day.

And by the end you're like, nobody wants to do it not live.

Yeah, you always have the option.

Yeah.

To me, I'm like, I never if you come in sick today, I need you next week, don't worry about it.

Yeah, let's do it and we'll figure it out.

Yeah.

So and then I remember happens, to be honest, all the fifty something days that we shot.

Not to get too into the weeds about that, but.

Actually live they did happen a couple of days that they got sick, but they pushed through it and it actually helps the performance in a where you could hear their voice.

Yeah, I get that.

It's so effective.

It's effective in every way that they showed up.

It just it was like the performance when you're sick, it doesn't you know, if you're performing, it works if you're not, like one hundred and two fevers.

You have two people like that who are used to live performing and probably pushing through those things.

Yeah, that's true.

They know how to work around it.

Like we're not sacking insurance.

Yeah we did one hundred and sixty shows, we did a hundred whatever.

Yeah, Yeah.

I like we've been watching a lot of musicals on this podcast lately, like different movie musicals, and I'm always just fascinated.

You don't have to go into two in depth about this, but because you answered a lot of it.

But when you're recording the live, obviously we want the live because there's the emotion, the rawness of it, but the recording, like the mics you're using themselves obviously different.

If you're in a recording booth with that sound and those mics that are made exactly for that, and you're using probably like mics that are maybe made to capture dialogue.

And then you have Cynthia flying and she's singing, Like how are you able to sort of like bridge that gap maybe of like having a vocal, a singing vocal that still sounds good up against music that is cinema worthy and also I think you know still makes the audience feel like you do in the theater.

For example, when she's singing define gravity and you have that emotional reaction, which I imagine helps having the live singing because you're in a complete crient medium.

But like the technicality aspect of recording the vocal and then mixing it afterwards to make sure it still sounds like studio quality.

I guess we got Simon Hayes, who's the best of the best, and he's also like super militant about the quiet, Like there was we be shooting in a warehouse and like we're not warehouse of our stage and it's a brand new stage and we have this whole jungle that we built, so this forest and every time Cynthia would sing, you'd hear birds in the right afters they start singing because they made nests, and you're like, what the heck is that.

You're like, oh, these are birds.

They only sing when Cynthia is singing, which is wow, it's like amazing anyway, and so Simon was like, those birds they're on your track.

We've got to get them off this track.

And so he started playing these birds of prey sounds.

He's like, to scare the birds.

He's quiet, and Cynthia heard.

She's like, what the hell is that?

And like, that's that's We're trying to scare the birds so that they don't go on the track.

Cleinging tracks just for you.

And she's like, that will not happen, not on the sets.

Tell them, do not play those sounds.

If they're on my track, then God wants them to be on my.

Nimals do.

It's in her and the reality is those those birds are sometimes on her track.

And that's what you can get along.

You can get away with a lot.

You know, we also have, you know, our our mixed team after you know.

I think the hardest part about directing a musical is that director's role of pulling the thread through is way more important, because a musical walks on this fine edge of of permission to do what it does.

And I won't say cringe because I think that I think cringe is a nasty word by pessimists who don't want to just see joy.

But I will say that I understand the that that an audience in a cinema has to agree to this, to entering this world of the musical, and has to agree to believe in the realities of the rules of a musical world, and that if you cross that reality, how annoying that can be.

You have to stick with the things that you you had set up in the first ten minutes of the movie.

And I think that as a director your your movie, that line is walked by every element of your movie.

That's in the color, that's in the costume, that's in the pacing of the editing, that's in how where you're making cuts, that's in the sound mix of where does the instruments feel like they come from, how the entrances and exits of those, the transitions of that, that is in the actual mix of of of of of the urgency of things.

It comes in a lot of different forms.

Yeah, own jokes, how you play jokes, is or winked to an audience?

Is there not?

Or does anybody look at the camera?

Do we brave that forth?

Like, these are all things that one misstep and you're and you lose the audience really quickly.

So you have to pull that thread, just just as a medium, the director has to pull that thread from the very words on the script all the way to the delivery of the color when you're color timing, and the and and the coughs that you hear in the mix, or the saliva that you hear when they singing or or sniffles that they hear when they're off camera and crying.

That that that alone is a big task for that And that's not even talking about how you tell the story.

That's just technical tone.

And I'm not even talking about technical like actually tech, but like technical as in how you keep the how you agree to the rules of this world.

Then you have to get into the actual storytelling of where you pull the audience into the drama or to the comedy of it.

So anyway, I forget the question, but that's great that pull through.

I have to know my conversations with Cynthia and Ariana in a office building that we discussed a certain scene, because if I don't follow through with that on the other end, they'll be doing stuff that doesn't matter.

But if I bring that into the mix and say, hey, for good, is something where they're actually looking at each other and speaking these things, and so let's play it as dialogue.

So let's let's minimize that orchestration.

Even though we have one hundred piece orchestra, they have amazing stuff.

I want to hear the and you would never hear the leaves blow by, but in that one space, let the leaves blow by.

I want to feel the space between them and have that.

Let's hear the rustling of the branches in there, so we can feel the loneliness or whatever like, or feel how high they are by the type of winds that you have.

And so I can conform that because of our conversations way back then and anyway, when those things start to tie together, it becomes much more cohesive experience that every element is carrying you lyrically in this that I think it is a musicality, Kevin.

I know we talk a lot about musicality because I think that's something I discovered when working with dancers It's like there are dancers and they do things, and some people do tricks and whatever, but that's not dancing.

To me, Like the highest bar of dancing is someone with musicality, because musicality isn't about what you're trained to do.

It is about interpreting the music, and if the music changes, your musicality better change.

Otherwise what are you doing.

You're just doing a routine that you learned.

But if your dance movement changes because the song changes, it means you're connected to that song.

And I learned to respect that so much working with dancers that that's what I look for, number one.

And in a weird way, I look for that musicality in all of life, whether that's an actor or a cinematographer or a costume designer, that they are reacting to the fabric of the emotion of a scene or of life.

The messiness of life is well, but they're interpreting and finding in their medium.

And to me, if I get to bring that and connect the dots to that, like that is the power of cinema.

You get to sit back and experience all of those things together in concert.

Somebody said that because I see that in all your work.

You've always done that and like how music has always led your storytelling in that way, the musicality of it all.

Yeah, thank you John.

Before we let you go, we always ask people on the podcast what is the feeling that Lee leaves you with?

But since we're talking about Wicked here, I'm going to ask you what is the feeling that Wicked leaves you with?

Let me answer both, okay, Because I love Glee and I love being around you all during that time, and there is this this this dreamy aspect of seeing you guys walk lunch together with all the pas and the golf car going crazy, or you guys in different costumes every day, and it just to me was like this youthful joy.

And I every day I go out and see that happening, and you guys were always so kind to me.

I was just the weird guy who's editing a movie over there.

I felt.

I felt like that's the dream of a creative environment that you want to be in, that you can do the both most excellent work and be affecting the world and have so much fun and joy no matter how intense it was.

And I saw you guys on tour, I saw how the intensity.

I saw how exhausted that is, and I felt for you as well.

But you never I never saw you guys treat fans in a way that didn't include them in that joy.

And I because I knew behind and in front of the scenes, I knew that that was true.

So I just I always looked up to that.

And I think I wanted in Wicked to really feel that we could be the most do the most excellent work.

We could break all these precedences that were set before us.

That we could have a queer man and a queer woman play a couple in the movie, and we didn't have to talk about it.

Yeah, we have a woman who uses a wheelchair to play Nessa for the first time ever and we didn't have to talk about it.

That we could have an Asian matter morrible.

And by the way, did you guys know that Madam Horrible upside Down is like Wicked?

Pretty amazing?

Ye?

That did you just come up with that?

And and to me, so you can have a musical that said something about our world and and actually affect the world and bring joy out there.

So anyway, I guess I hope that people get get a little bit of what I got from when I was the observer, that you can do all of it.

You can have a beautiful set, you can make great work, and you can break ground, and that all exists together and it's not about toy.

That's so nice of you to say.

It's yeah, thank you for saying that.

Thanks for the reflection.

It's nice to hear from somebody who was there, who got to see those early days, and.

For us to see you.

Continue to wear your heart and storytelling on your sleeves and it literally like seep into every piece of work and every detail from the rustling of the wind to how high the wind is, like it's so divine and so inspiring, and it's truly.

I wish there were more John Che's out there, and I know there are, and I hope that people listening to this are inspired to go do the thing that you're doing and do it with such grace and detail and finite.

You know, I don't know the feelings like I am just always so inspired by you, and we're just so grateful that we got.

To connect with you again and have you here and hear you talk.

We could hear you talk for hours and hours and hours, but We're just it's just wonderful to see you again and your words.

Yeah yeah, thank you so much for spending so much time with us.

We appreciate it.

The busiest man in Hollywood, true truly.

Good luck with the workshop today is one.

Of the best.

It is a musical, especially it does a musical making it a musical.

Is there a wedding scene in it?

The beauty is the beautiful wedding.

Do you love weddings because all the weddings are just.

So many weddings growing up.

But I'm like, I know how to do it.

It makes so much The two most beautiful, like cinematic weddings I've ever seen in films aren't for you and crazy irritations.

I was like, this knows how to do a wedding.

I told you I love weddings, and I get to control the wedding.

Yes, are you?

Oh my gosh, we love it.

Thanks?

Thank you, John Bye, Oh my gosh, she's so sweet.

Uh John, true everybody John.

Just John.

I feel like we just need to do like a yearly check in with him.

I mean, I just want to hear to speak about I mean, we barely scratch the surface and it's like.

Just the detail in which he knows how to.

Look.

People know can direct whatever, but to direct on the level that he's directing on and you hurt it yourself paying attention to the detail every word that he hangs on from every person in the camp like is really it's what elevates.

His stuff and makes it so good.

And you can tell that he truly does love what he does, whether he's shooting a wedding, somebody's wedding or shooting a wedding at the highest level.

So I think that's also what makes me like him a really great director for the Wicked movies, because he sees it in a way like we all want to be seen like he does it in a way that's so approachable.

And I mean that in like the best way possible, where like Wicked could have gone wrong in so many.

Ways no I know, but he knew.

He knew.

You can revere something you know like you have the utmost respect for it and still have your vision for it where you can bring in new audiences around the world to something that I've never seen it and they can love it.

And then you can also bring in people who have loved the stage show for forever and they can also love it, and that's a really hard balance to strike.

And Yeah, I think he's really found because you can hear.

I'm so glad people can hear just how much he cares deeply, not just about the final product, but about every little thing that goes into the process, the people he's surrounding himself with, and his love and understanding of the story.

Yeah, thank you John for literally taking the time to go to a workshop.

Yeah, you go direct a workshop for crazy djation, It's no big deal.

And for you guys to hope you guys enjoyed the conversation and come back next week.

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