Today, I'm Bingers a symble.

We're talking about nineteen eighty two's Tron in the Reddit run up to Tron Aries all that.

Right after this, Welcome to Bender's Symbol where we rewatch movies so you don't have to.

My name's Matthew Carroll.

And I'm Jay Scotty Saint Clair.

What's up, Jay Scoots.

How you doing, buddy?

Oh?

Doing pretty well.

It's been a busy start to the fall for me, but uh, definitely grateful for opportunities to delve into a little escapism with such a property like Tron.

Yeah, go on, Yeah, You've been mentioning it on podcasts.

I'm on a lot of podcasts with you as of late, and you've been mentioning that you wanted to cover it.

You wanted to cover it, and I'm like, that sounds great.

I'd love to cover it.

But we've had so much going on that's been hard to get it going.

But I'm glad.

So often when we start these series, we kind of start like with a what what is your background with Tron?

Like, what's your history?

I didn't grow up on Tron, I'll be honest.

The first time I watched Tron was when Disney Plus rolled out in twenty nineteen.

I had never seen it before.

Then I saw Tron Legacy when it came out in twenty eleven and enjoyed it.

And we'll talk about that at length when the time comes.

But the soundtrack has been forever endeared within my soul.

So it's a soundtrack that I revisit a lot.

When I first caught the film in twenty nineteen.

Without saying too much before we actually podcast about it, I will say I feel like a lot of films get the moniker of like cult classic, but I feel like this is one of the best examples of a real cult classic, where it's like I can admire all the ambition and the influence that it had on the genre and the franchise going forward, but I can also easily acknowledge some of the shortcomings.

But all that being said, it was a a case of like going back and revisiting, visiting a film that I didn't grow up with, but very quickly becoming en dear to the to the world and the visual stylings.

Yeah, that's cool.

I remember.

I think I've watched this for the first time when I was a child.

I was born in eighty three, so it was probably like on video just a few years later.

My dad I remember bringing it home and watching it, and you know, I I I just vaguely remember him enjoying it, but like not really understanding it as a kid.

Just remember the colors and the palette of the movie.

I mean, you know, at the time, it was a visual you know, it was very interesting visually at the time.

Now it feels very dated, of course, but in a sort of beautiful way.

Agree.

And then when I think Legacy came out, I went and revisited the Visited Tron for the first time as an adult, sort of remembering what the plot was and actually what happened, and then went to see Legacy, and I really joid Legacy a lot.

So so I I'm excited to see what they're doing with Aries.

I haven't really followed any kind of like plot news or anything, just seen the trailers.

So yeah, I think I'm hopeful that it'll be cool.

And so I'm just this just seems like a fun series, especially since they've come out so sort of infrequently and you get these like stuff dippins to the universe.

It's just a fun one to cover in this format of symbol, which we haven't done many of lately, so I'm excited to do this.

I'd have to look at the feed to double check myself, but I want to say the last thing that came out on the feed was like top gun around like Memorial Day or something like that.

Yeah.

Yeah, we've only had I think one series on Venders symbol this year, except for our Oscar series, which we do every every you know, March, February, March.

So yeah, yeah, we did drop the ball on Drastic World Rebirth, and I know you've never got around to seeing that in theaters.

I could have made it happen, but they wouldn't have felt the same without you.

Yeah, yeah, we we we we should get on that sometime.

Oh, it would be fun streaming before too long here, Yeah, that'll.

Be a good time.

That'll be a good time to do it.

I saw that.

I think it's out on v O D or something, so maybe weren't streaming will be a good time, all right.

Well, what we do here is we we have a little format.

We first start with the shot where one of us puts one minute on the clock and tries to say say as much about the movie as you can in one minute.

So uh, and then this then we'll have the chaser where the other other of us will respond.

So you want the shot of the chaser this time?

Well, considering you're coming very fresh off this movie, I think it's only right that you do the the shot here.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I can handle that.

I can handle that.

Well, here we go.

Here goes the shot.

So in a in a weird mix of The Matrix, Wizard of Oz and Wreck It Ralph, they they a man is uh, goes into a gaming company to get the rights to his games back, but then is transported into the game and finds out that all of the programs that have been created have some sort of sentience, and they're living in a world where some sort of security program named Master Control is taking over all of the all of these life forms basically that exists.

Uh.

Well, we'll talk about how much sense that makes.

But all all the programs, no matter how simple or complex, they all have these sort of avatars in this world of video games, and they use video game controls and battle simulations to fight, and they end up fighting and just sort of a freedom fighter thing, go up against Master Control and break free of master control and free all these sentient programs.

And that's much shut.

Yeah, very very well done.

You didn't leave much on the table there, So.

Right, the chance shall what shall you do?

You know, it's always interesting, like you, Sometimes we only make it half way through and then it's easy to just like I'm just going to finish the story.

But sometimes it's just like, what's what's the thing that interests you?

You know, So that's the chase, that's the chaser.

So thirty seconds on the clock.

What did I miss?

What did I miss?

Jay, Scottie, You didn't miss much.

I will just kind of hone in on the fact that we have this rebellion, this revolution that's taking place, and I feel like it is a classic case of like anachronism.

Right, you have a very cyber space futuristic environment, but it's steeped in like gladiated Gladiator is gladiator games, and like it almost feels like the story of Spartacus, where you have a chosen hero that comes in and leads a rebellion against the corrupt leader there.

But yeah, by enlarge, you you hit the nail on the head.

And that's kind of the thing about this movie.

And that's time good stuff.

Yeah, yeah, I agree completely.

It is kind of anachronistic like that, but but I also it does have so many elements of so many stories that came before and since this movie.

Sure, I joked about Matrix because it's like that teleporting inside of a computer world, but then it's kind of Wizard of Oz because you get teleported to a world very different from your own, with a completely different color scheme, where everyone has a different avatar in that world that represents the one from outside.

Like this is very much you were and you were there, and you were there and you were there.

And then of course there's the Record Ralph of it all, where it's video games, jumping between games and having interactions.

So I really thought that was just a really fun, weird concept, and you know, obviously some of it is it being inspired by all kinds of things and it inspiring the future.

Yeah.

I particularly am please with the fact that you brought up wrecket Ralph because my mind did not go there.

In my mind didn't really go to Wizard of Oz either, But I see that one for what it is.

But yeah, recket Ralph in particularly like acknowledging the influence this had on the matrix is an easy comparison.

I feel like, not to take anything away from it, but yeah, wreck itt Ralph in particular, just like how can we anthrom A anthropomorphies the Internet in a way?

Right?

Yeah?

Yeah, Which that's one of my favorite things about this whole movie is how silly it is, because I feel like Legacy really did its best to build through the building blocks of this movie and build on them and try to make something more serious sci fi out of it.

But this movie is just like these things are sentient, they have personalities, but they are just a small bit of software.

Like one of them is like an accounting software, but he has a whole personality.

And it's just like funny the things you'd have to do to code a personality like that.

Sure, sure, very very funny.

Ram are actuarial program?

Yes, yes, exactly.

That's one of the things I was kind of alluding to in the chaser there, Like that's what I will say about this movie.

It's and it's it's something I've said about other movies, but I think it actually works in its favor in this regard where I actually use it as like a negative against some films.

It's big on vibes, not so big on substance.

So I think, you know, even with like by way of you doing the shot, me doing the chaser.

The plot is pretty thin.

The characters are pretty thin by and large, but they're still well defined enough.

And really, you know, it's all about the world building.

It's about the visual splendor and really pushing the envelope in terms of like the technology and just captivating our imaginations.

And again to hone in on what you brought up about the influence that it had going forward, I just think that cannot be understated.

Like again the Matrix reck at Ralph, but the one that I have to bring up as a product of the nineties, there was a nineties animated series called Reboot that was basically supposed to be inside a computer and it was like crappy early three D graphics.

But I feel like it's just it goes hand in hand with tron I love that.

I loved that show when I was a kid.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, big big fan.

You know another thing that this really kept reminding me of that I think we had a little bit inspiration here squid Games interests.

Oh okay, yeah, Like.

The costumes, particularly the guards.

Whenever the guards came in, the guards, just like in Squid Games, had this like blacked out faces.

They don't have, you know, shapes on their faces like the guards and Squid Games, but like the blacked out faces that you can't see under these hoods, and like the the different color coded competitors competing and like to in these games where they're like playing to the death.

Like I was like, oh, this is a kind of a Squid Game thing going on here too.

Totally totally, I didn't make that comparison either, But yeah, I really enjoy it.

I really liked I liked the like how different characters from the outside world kept coming in some of the By the way, part of this movie is a nightmare for me because you know how bad we've talked about on mini podcasts, how bad my like face blindness is.

I rely so much on hair and clothes in a movie to catch whose I have such a hard time tracking who's who's in, who is what what.

Tron character throughout the entire movie was really better.

That's pretty fair because I feel like they throw a filter and it's part of the way that they achieved the effects that they were able to achieve for the time.

But yeah, it's kind of like a filter that goes over everybody's face that kind of converts into gray scale.

And to your point, I Jeff Goldbloom and Bruce box Lightner, they look kind of alike, so I wouldn't fault you for.

That was Jeff.

Where was Jeff Goldbloom?

Oh, Jeff Bridges, I'm sorry.

Oh gosh, I was like Jeff Goldbloom's in this movie.

I was like, man, he was really into makeup or something, because I thought that's one face I think i'd recognize.

Yeah, everybody has a similar enough face.

Although that's something that this movie made me really appreciate about Jeff Bridges.

What a physical performer he is totally his ability to light he's he I could tell which he was just because he was moving differently than the rest.

He was like he had like a lot of like like sneak to him and like dash, Like he's just like a very almost like a dancer.

I wonder if he had a dancer's background, because like he he really had a lot of movement when he did this, like in the outside world before he ever in is the Tron world, he started like doing this little sneak walk so he could sneak up on his on delay his lady friend in the outside world.

And when he did that, I was like, man, that is like cartoon levels of sneak like he was doing like I don't know, inspector gadget movements or something.

And I was like, man, that is some real, I don't know, Jim Carrey esque like heightened movements that I was really appreciating.

And so in the and I think that I noticed a few of the other cars, Ram particularly also had kind of a dancer's movements.

He was doing a lot of like lifting himself up a little more smooth than what Jeff Bridges was doing, a little less personality, but it also had kind of a dancers thing going.

And I wonder if they went for that because they're doing so many interesting movements against this like digital background, they wanted kind of like, you know, interesting moving actors.

I think you're right, and I really appreciate the fact that you honed in on that observation there, because I feel like, to contrast with that, I noticed a couple of shots with Jeff Bridges where it was like I kind of had to question myself.

I'm like, Okay, have they taken just a still frame of him and imposed it like on an animated foreground and background or what have you.

But then I noticed one shot in particular where I think it's he's leaning over Ram's body and they have him blink a couple of times, just so you can tell that even though he's being as still as he is, it is him there.

But all of that to say, I think you're right on the money in terms of like the Star Wars franchise, particularly the prequels, have gotten a lot of flak about how the actors have, you know, in years since they have come out and said like basically they had to act against like tennis balls and stuff like that, it's a very difficult process.

But this was kind of the same thing.

And this was kind of the proto version of that because I I listened to an anecdote that uh, for the role of Sark, who to your point about the face blindness there, David Warner plays Ed Dillinger Sark and the MCP at least doing the voice for the MC yes, And I didn't realize until I looked it up.

I thought it was two different actors.

I thought Dillinger and Sark were two different actors, so that you know, once that makeup goes on and he has the the headdress on, it did a lot too.

That's cool.

I didn't know this Dillinger.

I knew it was Sorry, he was Sark and the MCP.

Okay, I could tell that from the way they were talking.

Sure, but then then you know who I kept thinking it was.

But the timing makes no sense.

Okay, uh the like general guy from and Or.

I kept like looking at his face and the way he was speaking, like the the guy who wears all white.

Uh oh, the older guy.

Yeah, the older guy old Donda.

Okay, he is the same age now, so it's not him, obviously, this is nineteen eighty two.

But I kept like the face and the voice reminded me enough of him that I kept being like, is that that No, it's not.

Stop saying stop thinking that interesting.

That's funny.

I didn't pick up that.

But all of that to say, we have, you know, David Warner playing Ed Dillinger Sark and doing the voice for the MCP.

I definitely picked up on the fact that, like Star Wars.

Again to reference Star Wars, it gets a lot of Flak four kind of establishing the trope of like the person with the English accents the villain.

This was like anybody that's like a villain at all as a as an English accent in this in this film.

But the reason I brought up the face blindness aspect of it or even the you know you referring to Jeff Bridges very animated performance there for the role of Ed Dillinger in Sark.

Peter O'Toole was originally cast in the role, but he found out more about the role and what the actually was gonna be like, and like when he learned that, like, oh, you expect an actor to react to things that aren't actually there, I'm.

Out interesting, Yeah, interesting, Yeah, that's really it's so interesting.

Yeah, I would.

I kept feeling like it was a stage performance, and I think it very much has that feeling of like and I think part of that is them reacting to things that aren't there.

You know, often on stage you'll see people sort of like and and the their eyeline is not exactly correct, you know what I mean, A lot of the moments and that is something that this movie.

It's tough because a lot of the movie is just action sequences mm hmm, and like eye lines are messed up.

It's it's just it's the early days of this technology of like recording on green screens and I kind of love that.

Uh And it's very it's very charming.

Yeah, charming is the perfect word for it.

That's the word that I was going to use to And I wouldn't you know, I wouldn't knock anybody that like tries to sit down and watch this movie, especially if you if you're of a certain age, and if you can't get through it, like I would stand.

But that's where I was just like pleasantly surprised.

I was just endeared and charmed with the uh not is it not only is it just CGI and and and large amounts of CGI, but it's also like a blending You've got the practical with the CGI with even old school animation.

Like it's very clear to me there were like there was some projection happening with some of the backgrounds or even like you had that sequence where you had like.

The the yellow long.

Armed, one eyed kind of like automatons that were replicating and and oh yeah, moving out across the grid like that was that was traditional animation that was made to look three D.

Interesting.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah, I didn't realize there were some traditional animation stuff in there.

Yeah, it's it's it's a weird, cool artifact of its time.

And I kind of love that we got these like up there, we're getting these updated versions of it.

Uh.

That being said, I mentioned it earlier, but the world is stupid.

Uh, the fact that these there's things are sentient.

You know.

I The only way I can kind of like justify it in my brain is maybe it is like a Wizard of Oz situation where you have to decide if it actually happened or not, you know, like did did Dorothy just get knocked out and have a dream or is this a real thing?

You know?

I And like, uh, because like he's talking to a bit and the bit has its own personality and yes, it can only say yes or no, which is a very cute moment.

Like you can imagine that would like these days, they would have made it so you could have a bit toy to go home with, you know, like that's that's the merchandising piece.

But like it's like the porgu of this movie.

But it's so stupid.

The idea that a bit could have a personality because it's a bit.

It's literally just one or zero, Like it can't have more programming than one or zero.

But it's it's just a it's just just silly concept.

But I do enjoy it.

It's silly but fun.

Yeah, And that's the thing.

There are a lot of goofy things about this movie.

Even with some of like the costuming and like the caps that they have to wear.

It's it's a little goofy.

And it does feel like even though it was like the early days of computing and information technology, and you know, at this point in twenty twenty five, even like the average the layman kind of you know, has a basic understanding of computers.

Here they were.

Definitely leaning into like the mythology of like how computers work, and like nobody really knows.

And to that point, I will say, this was such a passion project for the director and the writer Steven Lisberger.

He basically he founded an animation studio when he found out like this was possible, he just he took it and ran with it too.

And to that end, I talked about how Peter O'Toole bowed out of the role for sarkanel Ed Dillinger there in the role of.

Our title character, Tron Bruce box Lightner.

He met with the director like multiple times and the guy just basically wore him down.

It would not take no for an answer.

So once Jeff Bridges joined he was he was eventually persuaded.

Yeah, yeah, man, that's cool.

That's cool.

I love hearing that, and like, what's the next thing that's like that?

It just feels like technology these days is so we have the ability to make anything in the world.

You know, like literally we can put anything on the screen with these days.

CGI if you have enough time and the right people, like, you can just make anything look exactly the way you want it to.

And it's just about creative vision.

But like, I love the idea of just having a technology you fall in love with and you just want to make the thing, and like you want to experiment with it and see how to see the bounds of it.

I'm just really I was thinking when you said the grayscale skin thing earlier, I was like, I bet that's so that the green screens there in front of aren't the green screens were probably casting green on their face And it's very likely they had to go grayscale to like just make it not look green.

But I think you're right on the money.

Yeah.

The other thing that I just realized, that's why there's no hair in the in Tron because Tron is so bad.

Those individual strands would have been so Nightmary at a good call exactly.

So they all wear helmets that completely cover their hair because if you had any random hair strands, the green screen would look terrible.

So like it's it's I love stuff like that because it's so like clever problem solving so that you can do the interesting cool thing.

But you're like, well I can't.

I guess everybody just has to have a helmet in this world, like they just can't have hair.

And then that's that's a way to solve that problem, you know.

It's really really smart.

Yeah.

Yeah, and some helmets are a lot more flattering than other helmets.

I will say, like, uh, Dumont, the controller of our tower, very very phallic.

I look like a shriveled penis, let's be honest.

Yeah, yeah, yeah he did, Indeed he did.

Indeed.

I really like the Dumont scene, sure, or that first scene when they get to him.

It reminded again this this is when I really like home down on the Wizard of Oz, of it all.

It very much reminded me of like reaching the Wizard and being like, how do you get away?

How do we get home?

How do we get home?

It?

Just like Andre and then when when they uh, and then of course the face of the Master Control later, I was like, that's also very wizard like, Like it's just a lot of those sorts of references, it feels like in this.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the Master Control program again in his face because that's one of the most like unsettling things.

And I mentioned I didn't grow up on this, but I wonder if I had, I could totally see that beat like that image of his face, especially when it starts to do like the center huge like rotating and and it, but the iris of his eye kind of stays in focus.

So whatever reason, I just find that super super unsettling and kind of disturbing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally that whole Yeah.

Uh when was this made in relation to lawnmower Man.

Lawnmower Man was way later, wasn't it.

I want to say lawnmower Man was.

Mid the late nineties, I think so too ninety two, so ten years later.

Oh, but the technology they're using reminds me a lot of lawnmower Man too, like the I guess, I guess there's a lot more in lawn more Man.

There's a lot more like liquid kind of effects and things.

Although the one liquid scene in this was one of my favorite moments because it's so silly when they get to the little power oasis, oh so drinking from the oasis and they're just like this is what I needed and they're like drinking the power like I'm feeling better this right from this direct direct from you know, raw power or whatever.

It's just really, I don't know, it reminds me so much of just like a weird scene in a play where people are playing like like I'm a tree and I'm drinking from water, the water is feeding me.

Like it's just really a strange vibe to it.

Totally.

Yeah, Yeah, I feel like there are several vignettes like that that.

Like, again, the plot is pretty thin in terms of it just being like a story of like revolution and Flynn being on this quest to get what's rightfully his.

But yeah, apart from that, we do, we do, you know, just have some asides like that being one.

Lots of just.

Like I what comes to mind particularly is you'll have like that that object that kind of looks like a satellite with like the solar sales almost like treading across the line of light, which is like I believe they were trying to visually display like how information travels through like a cord or something like that.

Right, it's just extended sequence where you're like looking at nothing but CGI generated geometry.

And there were those it was those moments where I'm like, it looks cool at first, and then my eyes start to glaze over once you've been on it more than thirty seconds.

Yeah, I'll save my comments on that for the my bottom shelf, because that is that is God.

That is basically my bottom shelf.

Before we get to the bottom shelf, I did want to mention like it is pretty thin, and it like skims the surface of philosophy.

And I think they do a better job in the in the tron Legacy, And I'm excited to get there because too they're just sort of bouncing off the top of philosophy, like they say, these lines that are are pretty deep and have a lot to explore, but then the movie does not explore them.

I mean, just the idea that the users are like their gods and this whole like relationship and are the users real they made us, they must have a plan like all this stuff, And I did like that that was the one scene that got deep enough to be like meaningful when Jeff Bridge says like, no, you just you just keep doing what you think you're supposed to do, and he's like, that's what programs do, but not users.

You know, like there's this idea that there's a big plan and and he's this relationship between God and man thing happening throughout the whole thing.

I agree, I agree.

I did have the thought, like the passing thought that you know, speaking to the fact that we have all of these programs are are represented by the people that created them, and Tron is like the best example of that being Alan Alan one represented the digital world.

We don't really have a counterpart.

Oh actually we saw at the beginning with Clue with with Flynn as well, But yeah, I got a sense of it's like, you know, they say that we were created in man or in God's image, and that man will go on to you know, create, make his own creations in his in his image.

And I definitely got a sense of that, but like you said, it's just very surface level.

They don't really go anywhere with it.

Yes, exactly.

And there's there's the big scene where Ram dies and and he's any asks him are you a user?

And he's like, yes, I am.

And it's a it's like man Ram who's a believer, and as he's dying, he gets to like know that his God is a real like there's real like, but it feels like there should be something slightly deeper, just like it doesn't have to be much deeper, just like right on the edge of being meaningful.

And that's where I get to say to you, I'll have to save the rest of my thoughts for later on in the show.

Well, we're almost there, I guess.

Should we get into it.

Well, let me see if I got anything else here.

Oh, another line that again just skimmed philosophy was computers will start thinking and people will stop.

I thought that was kind of actually pretty prescient, a pretty great line, and that was the same feels pretty real, Yeah, feels pretty real.

And that was the same actor who later played Dumont I believe from from the outside world.

He had said that it.

Was yeah, and yes, yeah, I could call there.

And we haven't really talked much about the battles, and again, I'll talk about it more on my bottom shelf, but like there's a lot of cool battles and it just sort of everyone's just different enough, and like changes.

There's tank battles and light cycle battles, and you know there's the crash sequence where he's crashing this like, uh, I don't know, weird alien ship.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's supposed to be like a security program or something like that.

But that was the thing I kind of noted, even with like the depictions of ships like that and the little like four legged, one eyed creatures I described before, those those big protector ships kind of look like the same icons that they use in Space Invader, and then the little the little beings there.

They kind of reminded me of like what the visual representation that they have for viruses is, huh interesting.

Yeah, So I always appreciate things like that.

It's like, even though this is a very fantastical world that we've never seen, or few of us have at that point in time have even been capable of contemplating, of imagining and basing it in some you know, real world pinashes.

I like stuff like that.

Yeah, for sure, that's cool.

The dumbest line of the movie but also beautiful.

I almost made my top shelf.

But just as a joke.

I really love the line where it's setting up Jeff Bridges' character to get teleported into this world.

And we have seen an orange be digitized, and now he's about to be sent into the into the world to be digitized.

And she's like, all right, I have a direct terminal in the laser target area, which is such a great exposition, like such a stupid, silly exposition line to be like, all right, you have a task, go sit in for the big laser.

Like why would your terminal be in the laser target area?

It's so dumb.

Yeah, that feels like a after the.

Fact, like, oh, we gotta make this make sense.

Yeah, we gotta have a reason for him to sit, Like it would have made sense if they'd had him anywhere in the room and maybe the laser just turned or something.

You know, sure, what if that's like a Jaws moment where like Shark doesn't work we got to figure out something else, you know what I mean.

Oh, well, let's make the Shark just a musical theme more than a visual thing, you know.

Sure?

All right, well you're ready to get into a bottom sheelf.

Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

Which a bunch things off since we were just talking about it so recently, But you brought up the scene where Ram is asking Flynn if he's a user and Flynn gets to confide in him, Yes, I am a user, and it's a very heartfelt, very uplifting, kind of sorrowful moment and fitting in for our character Ram.

But the part that just like took me out of the movie is like, not thirty seconds before then, Flynn is showing off his ability with these user powers and he says to the I can't remember the exact verbage, but he says, how about these user powers or like, let's put these uses their powers to work?

And Ram has an expression where he acknowledges it.

So it just took me out of the movie in that moment.

It's like, it's so obvious that he's a user and maybe I'm I'm nitpicking here and maybe you know, just know, I don't think you tell me that you're the user is what he needed.

But I don't think of the movie.

I don't think you're nitpicking at all.

I think it has to do with the writing of this movie, which is kind of kind of what I have a problem with two with my lower bottom shelf.

It's it they're not great at conveying some information in this movie, where like, he says multiple things that make it clear he's a user, and each time he does, they kind of give him this like kind of like speculative look, but it's like they never have a conversation about it.

And also he never really has a reason to lie, so this kind of doesn't make sense why they don't know.

And it's kind of like I could see a world where like he tells them he's a user and they don't believe him, and then the powers.

That would have been a better writing if I were rewriting this, I would say he tells them he's a user and they're like, what a weird program you are?

You know what I mean, Like they're like yeah, yeah, and something like that, and then he ends up doing some of his powers and and then as the alas Dye, he's like, are you really a user?

Like that could have been way better, way more like touching the finger of God kind of thing like, but instead it's just kind of not that it's exactly what you're saying.

It's your bottom shelf, and it's a great one because it is, like it is indicative of a lot of things in this movie that like don't make a lot of sense.

Similarly, character leaps that don't make sense.

Beginning of the movie, they do this thing where the three of them are hanging out and like two of them still work at the company, and they go to like check in to what Flynn's doing at thefore before this tron stuff, they go to check on Flynn, like are you the hacker that's trying to break in?

And and then it seems like, as far as I know as a viewer, they're working for the company and come in to find out if this is the hacker and they do work for income, yes, And they do acknowledge that they have a prior relationship.

He used to date the girl something like that, Like there's a prior relationship here, but it seems like kind of antagonistic because there's sort of a lover's like competition going on and there's this and then within moments they're on a team that's willing to break into income and bring down the company.

There wasn't like a It just it reminds me of what you're saying about this this moment that you don't like because it's like these characters motivations are unclear, you know what I mean, Like I don't I didn't get that the two of them had any problem with Dillinger, you know what I mean, Like until they're like, all right, you're right, let's bring down the company.

It's like, oh, okay, Like I thought they would have they would need a little more information, they would little more proof or something.

It just sort of like yeah, but it was it was all in service of them just getting to the real movie, which is in the in the computer.

So it's not a huge problem for me, but it is a little annoying.

I found that scene short short.

I'm trying to recall because I watched it last night.

I was a little tired.

But the motivating factor for Alan, who is who is the you know, real real world avatar for Tron is he's trying to access something and he gets hit with like a denial.

Right, He's like I need to I'm trying to access something with Yeah, that's true.

It's like Dillinger's put this firewall on you so that he's already dilling I think you're right about it being not super clear, but at least in terms of him having like some reason to be suspicious of Dillinger, something.

There was, and there was You're right, Alan did get like his access denied, that's what.

Okay, but it doesn't really he like turned off access for everyone because he knows that his Master Control program needs more time or something like that, right, And it's just kind of like okay, and and and Alan is creating a program to put a check on Master Control and Bill Andre doesn't want that.

So there's there's some stuff going on there, but like it just doesn't seem real clear to me that they're there to like, I don't know, conscript the help of this hacker.

It seems like they're going to like either warn him maybe if their.

Friends or says she wants to warn him.

Yeah, okay, okay, Yeah.

It just it just felt like a weird leap to be like, these are three people that I don't really know have that are that close.

Two of them seem like a little competitive and now they're like on a mission together all of a sudden.

But again, it's like, I'm glad they didn't do more because it's an hour and a half movie, and I like these old eighties hour and a half movies.

I really do think there's so much fun to just get in and out my bottom shelf.

Okay, is you you mentioned the visuals being like just shots of geometry for like five minutes.

They do not do a great job in this movie of explaining what is going on with the geometry around them.

At times there's just machines like chomping things or spinning or doing weird things, and it's like it's the focus of the camera.

You're supposed to know something is happening here, there's a danger or like sometimes they do a good job of it, sometimes they don't, and it's like sometimes it just feels really meaningless, like the and so much of the movie is action, and a lot of times in an action sequence you have to kind of set up the danger by show, like in the light cycle scene, which I think is why it's one of the more memorable scenes.

You see a character die, you see a character hit a wall and you're like, oh, that's the that's the danger of the light cycles.

But then a lot of future scenes it's like they're in some sort of danger, but you don't really understand what that danger is or.

Like, sure, how you know?

So, so I think they just do a really really poor job of establishing like the world very well.

Yeah, just in general agree, I like a lot of what it's going on otherwise, but that that is my bottom shelf is just like watching this sort of just confusing exactly what you said, just random geometry for five minutes, and it's like, Okay, I can kind of guess what that means, but it's just my own weird interpretation has nothing to do with what they don't say, so and when they do say it's like just weird technobabble that doesn't it doesn't make sense in the real world for computers, and it doesn't make sense for the analogy they're trying to tell, And so it's just like, Okay, they're in a sailing simulation that's powered by this weird beam of light.

Okay, right, I don't know what that means.

I don't know what any of that means in either the analogy or the real world, So like, give me like the hard sci fi of it makes no sense and the analogy makes no sense, and I'm I'm lost.

Yeah, I think it's a fair bottom shelf.

And the part that came to mind for me that I felt was kind of indicative of this whole.

This whole it looks cool, but what does it mean that we're talking about is when the world gets restored, it's finally free from the control of you know, the master control program.

Is It's a very cool looking shot and gets my imagination going, but again, like what does it mean?

What's the function?

Is?

It's a landscape with these like spheres situated and it's kind of like a hill like landscape with like ridges, like concentric ridges and lines that get lit up, and and you have like these these orbs that get lit up with like various lights.

Like that looks cool, but what do those things do?

What is their function within this world?

There's a guy who says, look at the communication node there.

He only says he only says node, He doesn't say nodes.

But I agree with you.

There's all these things lighting up, and I think it should have been look at the communication nodes, like the idea is Master Control is losing its power and control over the system, and now the system is open again and people can communicate with the outside world and have you know, uh, have get back to their users whatever they need to do.

But it's like they said, node not nodes, and it's just a weird it's a weird moment, Like I wonder if, like the recording didn't match the visual and they were like, well, people won't know what's going on.

Anyway, and then at that same point, just a node.

But then we thought it visually it made since with lots of nodes, but we didn't re record it.

At that same moment when Master Control is exploding, there's also this big, like I don't know, cylinder trash can thing that like inverts and turns inside out.

There's all these shapes that are changing colors and moving and like oh expanding and contracting, and I'm like, that's just the explosion of Master Control, I guess, but it's just it's just weird.

Like I was, I was like, I've never seen that object before, so you showing me, you know, twenty seconds of this thing changing and I was like, I don't know what that means.

Yeah, I agree with you.

But one thing I will kind of mention and hone in on in that moment is as the Master can Corol program is kind of shutting down.

One of the things that did work for me in terms of like what they set up and what they were visually able to convey is the fact that the Master Control program, at the end of the day, it was a creation of the original founder, doctor Gibbs.

Like, it looks like Dumont, it looks like him.

It's a representation of him rather than Dillinger.

So again, Dillinger just corrupted things that weren't his own.

He stole from Flynn, he stole from Gibbs.

That's just his momo.

So I did appreciate that via oh, is that is.

That who that was getting out of the out of the I was wondering about that because I'm so bad with faces.

Uh, But I was like, I can't tell for sure which character that is.

Yeah, that's cool, that's cool.

That does make sense.

And I was actually curious because Master Control gets out and sort of like steps away, and I was like, is this supposed to be like Master Control lives to fight another day?

You know what I mean?

Yeah, it's interesting.

I don't know well, and I really I remember liking Legacy, I don't remember anything about it hardly, so I'm excited to see where what little connections it draws, and doing this podcast is going to make it a lot more fun.

I agree to hone in on what exactly their drawing connections between the movies and such.

Well, what about top Chef man, what you got.

My top Chef?

I feel like we've kind of already addressed it pretty thoroughly here, so let me let me add some additional context.

I want to provide a quote from a film critic named Richard Corlis who said nothing ages as quickly as yesterday's vision of the future, which I think is totally true and true for this movie.

But that being said, again, it's the world building, the passion and the imagination on display, Like even though this is produced by a company like Disney, just knowing what I know about the behind the scenes and the grit and the kind of running and gunning it took to make this thing happen, and the fact that it works as well as it does, Like, we have not been, you know, shy about our qualms with this movie, but still we sat down to talk about this thing.

We're excited to talk about the next one.

We're excited for tron aries, and there are good reasons for that.

So I think my top shelf is that even though this movie was not the critical or financial hit for Disney, the fact that it did as well as it did and the passion was so thoroughly conveyed that the franchise has been able to go the distance, you know, forty years later is awesome to me.

Yeah, I hear that My top shelf is just Jeff Bridges Man.

How can you go wrong with that?

He's so so good?

And you mentioned this as a cult classic, and I think that's definitely true.

But it's also kind of a joke.

I feel like there's sort of like a I feel like Tron is a series that looks so over the top silly that i've over the years before I had rewatched it and before I knew much about it, remembered much about it from my childhood.

Like they're sort of just like it's almost like a joke of it's such an artifact of its time that like the the effects seems so silly and so you know, dated basically sure that I I think it would not work if it wasn't held together so well by a performer like Jeff Bridges.

I think all this stuff works.

And I agree with you about the passion that goes into creating something like this, and this is you know, a foundational thing that led to a million other things, you know, like that will that will use this technology in different and new and better ways.

But like finding finding a performer like Jeff Bridges who put his whole self into it, and really, I just he's He's charming as hell, he's funny, he has pathos hit and like I said, his movements are so exaggerated but still very human.

He reminds me of like a young like I don't know, like Chevy Chase or Tom Hanks or something.

I guess there's a lot of there's a lot of like movements and just he just he just is owning this movie in a way that like makes the movie work for me.

Yeah, then I think like if there wasn't and all the other performers are great, you know, they're fine, but none of them have the personality come into the screen like Jeff Bridges does.

Yeah, I think that's a wonderful wonderful top shelf and I agree wholeheartedly.

And you know, talking about the relationship dynamics and the characterizations, we talked a little bit about the love triangle and something that came to mind that I meant to say but it didn't say at the time was I was reminded of the the romantic triangle that we have in the X Men, the animated series between Jean Gray, Cyclops and Wolverine.

And I feel like Jeff Bridges, while he's not as gruff as Wolverine, he is our Wolverine in this scenario where he's kind of oh yeah, outside he's mister Steel your girl, but he's got all the charisma and he is the fan favorite.

So I think you're one hundred percent right, Like, and that's the thing I'm kind of struck with.

I was it hit me in the movie, and it hit me in this conversation.

But for a movie called Tron, and Tron plays a privot, pivotal role, but he's not really the main character in like any way, shape or form.

So uh yeah, I I give all the credit to Jeff Goldwoman, and he really does make this movie work.

But I will say the one performer that.

I think goes to is David Warner, if not as Ed Dillinger as Sark just the the I agree, yeah, I agree.

Sorry you said Jeff Goldblum again, just sy It's fine, just yeah, no, uh, I agree completely.

Sark's character is really really well done.

It did remind as I said, I thought it was that guy from I kept thinking of that guy from Star Wars.

He feels like a Star Wars general or like a you know, one of those admirals that's always on the ship just ra rah, but but like really pulling it off and eating up the scenery and like file and ready.

Yeah, he's really like eating up the scenery that probably he couldn't see on the day, but like he's really he's really chewing it.

It's good.

It's good.

It's good stuff.

Anyway, fun movie.

I it's not my favorite beginning of a franchise of all time, But like I remember watching Legacy and being like, Okay, I'm interested where they will go with this in the future, and now we're finally getting it like whatever fifteen ten, fifteen years later, so I'm pumped to revisit Legacy and series.

Finally there's a series apparently animated series.

Yeah, there's an animated series on Disney Plus called Tron Uprising.

I did not make it through.

I think there's two seasons, maybe three seasons.

I didn't make it all the way through, but I got a good distance through it, and I should go back and revisit it because I liked what I saw.

Cool cool, cool.

All right, Well, we'll I guess we'll be back soon with with Tron Legacy next time.

What do you got to tell the people about there, Jay Scotty.

Oh, check me out on Multiverse News, where we talk about the latest and greatest in movie news and TV news every week.

You can catch us live Tuesdays at five thirty Pacific and then on the always watching feed.

Alien Earth has come to a conclusion, but you can still go back and catch every episode we did on that and Peacemaker season two is nearing its conclusion here soon.

So what a time to be a fan of TV.

Indeed, indeed, and I'm over there with Jay Scotty on most of that stuff, as well as the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast, which, by the time this goes live, I think me and Jay Scotty will also have an episode over there.

Talking about our top our top ten or top five.

We're still working it out our favorite seasons of Marvel Television, ranking our favorite seasons of Marvel Television.

So that's gonna be a lot of fun and we'll be back soon.

Peace farewell programs.

I wanted to say greetings programs earlier, and I forgot Bingers as symbol is a stranded pen the podcast for all of our podcasts, some other geeky creative projects go Strandedpanda dot Com, Hm