Episode 23:  Matt's Chitchats - Music, technology and the anxiety of Italian Identity – A Conversation with Vera Gheno [00:00:05] Matt Absalom: Hi and welcome to Matt's Chitchats, where I talk to all sorts of different people about all sorts of different things relating to languages. My name's Matt Absalom, and I'm an italianist who's always ready for a good chit chat. In this episode, I'm joined by Vera Gheno, the noted Italian sociolinguist public intellectual and prolific writer. Vera is particularly known for her work on language and gender. But today we're talking about Italian music. I started by asking Vera what aspects of contemporary Italian music were of particular interest to her? [00:00:56] Vero Gheno: Well, first of all, I have to say that normally I'm not that much into Italian music. I mean, most of my colleagues or friends really love Italian music from the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, you know, like, uh, from Lucio Battisti to De Andre, uh, the politically relevant music as well. And, uh, probably because my parents forced me to listen to that kind of music when I was a kid, i just can't really stand it. So I went through a long period of hate for Italian music, I, when I was a teenager, I only listened to English spoken, sung music. And I came back to Italian music recently, mostly because my daughter, who is now almost 17, is into contemporary Italian music. So through her I came back to Italian music. And what I really like about the youngest generation of singers or composers is that they mix a lot of different languages, not only Italian and English, but also a lot of, uh, other less expected languages, for example, Arabic, because that's one of the languages of the new generation of, uh, immigrants to Italy or second generations that came earlier from from other countries. And for example, there are singers or trappers or rappers like Mahmood and Ghali who normally use pieces of Arabic in their Italian flow. And that's kind of fascinating and interesting for me. And apart from that, of course, there is always, um, the mixture between classical Italian, I mean, uh, formal, grammatically correct Italian and the so-called juvenile languages, uh, which we know because it happens also in English, play a lot with, uh, with grammar and the limits of grammar. So that's also something I really like to explore. I like those areas of language where the grammar is stretched over its limit. [00:03:06] Matt Absalom: What about the place of Italian dialects, for instance? I'm thinking of Geolier in the, you know, the recent, um, Sanremo. I think I read an article where someone was basically saying that was the song that should have won, or something along those lines. [00:03:24] Vero Gheno: Well, uh, you're talking about Naples and the area of Naples, uh, which has been always, uh, very well known for one specific kind of type of music, which is the so-called neo melodic napoletano, and that has a very long tradition. I think the new instances that this music spilled over the limits of Naples and the surrounding areas, and especially with Geolier or Geolier, uh, became known in in the whole of Italy. Uh, but, um, yeah, there is a lot of Neapolitan there. Uh, it's not so common, though, that other area languages are represented that much in music. I mean, um, I live in Florence, in Tuscany, and and certainly there are some singers who sing in Tuscan, but they are local, you know, they didn't become national phenomena or even international in some cases, like, uh, Geolier now, um. [00:04:26] Matt Absalom: I think it's it's quite interesting that Arabic is a language that's appearing in this sort of context. And what I'm wondering is, what do you think of the the notion that sometimes the arts, like music, foreshadow future, uh, societal changes? So, you know, you're getting this, a bit more openness, uh, to multilingualism, if you like, on the music scene. Does it foreshadow a future openness? [00:05:00] Vero Gheno: Good question. I mean, I would love it to be that way. I remember that, uh, many, many years ago, 20 something years ago, when I was studying juvenile languages, one of the remarks I made was exactly that. Uh, when we look to juvenile languages, we can have an idea of where could our languages go in the future. And also, this is, uh, you can you can have the same feeling for me when you you watch or listen to this kind of music. And, of course, the new generations, uh, grow up in their present, which is very different from the one I grew up in. I mean, I'm almost 50, so there is quite an age gap now, uh, if I, if I look at the the normality of my daughter, uh, she grew up with people from literally every continent and people with disabilities as well. Or neuro diversity in the class, in her class. So she has always been very much used to the so-called diversity. I think for the younger generations, uh, that's quite the normal situation. And what Ghali or tha Supreme or Mahmood sing about, uh, is their contemporarity or their reality, uh, which would be lovely if it became the new normality for me. Of course, from my point of view, as, as I am suffering of a Peter Pan syndrome, I just I just refuse to be an adult. Uh, for me, the main problem we have in Italy right now is us. It's us. A mature generation, uh, who just don't want to, uh, cope with the natural diversity occurring in society. And so what is very funny for me is that these these songs are very much popular, very popular, very much listened. But there is the whole group of, uh, more mature critics, uh, who refuse to acknowledge that this is beautiful music. They say that this is trash, that it is destroying Italian language and blah, blah. It's always the same kind of very critical point of view, because it seems to challenge the norm of Italian, uh, you know, even with mixing the languages, which is, you know, seldom looked at as something positive. [00:07:29] Matt Absalom: I find all of these discussions and sort of arguments quite interesting. If we actually look at, you know, the very short history of Italian linguistic unity, because as we know, the country unified in, you know, 1860, 1870. Um, and it really wasn't until sort of universal schooling, the wars, internal migration that Standard Italian became the standard. Before that, surely the country was used to a level of at least a diglossic sort of situation where people would, you know, use their local variety at home, and then if they if they had an interface with the public, then they'd be trying to use the Standard Italian. So why do you think with that background, it's so difficult in some ways to come to terms with a multilingual reality? [00:08:33] Vero Gheno: Mm. Well, um, I would add to, to your remarks that Italian is the last language that became, uh, the language of culture, because for a long period people talked their local, let's call it dialect, but it's an aerial language. And then usually they spoke another language, which was the language of the culture. So, for example, Alessandro Manzoni spoke French with his acolytes, his friends, not Italian. I mean, he wrote the Promessi Sposi in Italian, but the language of culture was French, and it was French for a long time. So you can find French bits and pieces in, in, in many area languages of Italy, for example, in the southern city of Bari, in the local dialect, the name for cupboard is armoire, which is a straight French yes. So this is also very fascinating. The Italian was the last to become the cultural language, a language of cultural relevance. Now, probably this is also the answer to your question. I mean, we became ah speakers of Italian with quite some difficulties. Uh, it took 100 years from the unity of Italy to became speakers of Italian. So yeah. And the TV had a very important role in this 1961/62 is when the Italian TV entered in the, in the, in the living rooms of really Italians, every Italian and um, so probably there are entire generations that still have the feeling that they do not have a very strong, um, grasp of, of Italian. [00:10:15] Vero Gheno: And so they are very protective about their language. And when you are uncertain of your relationship with something or somebody, you tend to be more protective, even more hyper protective. Yeah. I mean, and um, another thing which is very important to underline for me is that, uh, entire generations, for example, my generation is not so acquainted to other languages. I mean, in my age bracket, people who speak fluently English are not that common, even in my in my field of expertise, I mean, as a linguist. But, you know, a linguist is not somebody who knows many languages, even if some believe that. You know, I remember one of the opening lines of one of my favourite movie, which is Arrival. Yes. Uh, and there is the first dialogue between this guy from the military and the linguist Louise, and the guy from the military says, oh, you are a linguis, so you speak many languages, which is kind of a nonsense, because one can be linguist and only know one language, and many Italianists do not know any other language. And I think, well, that's kind of a limit sometimes because, uh, I think you have to see a bigger picture, especially when you study the international phenomena like juvenile languages or the language of music. [00:11:37] Matt Absalom: Absolutely. Yeah. It's interesting you mentioned the television. Um, I've always had this hypothesis that, you know, the countries that have dubbed television so, you know, ah Italy, France, does Spain have dubbed television? [00:11:56] Vero Gheno: I don't know, maybe. Yes, because they have the Real Academia Espanola. So maybe they, they have a little bit of so compared. [00:12:02] Matt Absalom: So let's say Southern Europe, Southern Western Europe compared to Northern Europe where they don't have dubbed television. And there's a clear demarcation in English competency. And I think this is interesting because clearly the television like in Italy, television had a pivotal role with the spread of Italian. And there were even those famous programs teaching Italian on the television. Do you think removing dubbing would have a similar effect in Italy, now that it's clearly the same sort of effect that it's had in Northern? [00:12:41] Vero Gheno: Uh, well, I don't have empirical data here at hand, but I think it's already happening with the on demand TV. [00:12:48] Matt Absalom: Sure. [00:12:48] Vero Gheno: Yeah. [00:12:49] Matt Absalom: Where you can choose. [00:12:50] Vero Gheno: Yes, exactly. And again, I'm sorry to to quote my daughter that often, but she is very interestingly, um, studying Korean by herself. [00:13:00] Matt Absalom: Okay. [00:13:01] Vero Gheno: Uh, and one of the ways she had to grow closer to Korean is to, uh, watch a lot of Korean dramas, Korean TV series. And, of course, she watches them with English subtitles. And, um, she picks up a lot by listening to those, uh, TV series and programs. So, yes, I think that the question of dubbing is, is central in, in the perception that many Italians have of English as some as something that is still very, very distant from their everyday life. Whereas I lived three years in Finland when I was a kid from 10 to 13, and I went to school there, so I picked up also Finnish. I already spoke Hungarian, so it has some similarities. Sure, the system is not really as a language, but I remember that, uh, we watched a lot of TV series in English with Finnish subtitles, and that was very important, I think, for my, not only for my knowledge of English, but also like, um, feeling English as part of my life, you know, as something that is just organic with my everyday life. If you only watch dubbed TV, you don't have, I think that familiarity effect, and also it's very interesting that the dubbed Italian is very artificial. It's not a real Italian. Nobody speaks like that in Italy, and also many straight translations from English have become part of our everyday Italian language, even if they are not technically Italian. For example, you can't say the F word here, but the Italian correspondent of the F word is not something that we would ever use. Can I make an example? You can cut it out. Of course. Apri quella fottuta porta. Um. Sure. Open that f-ing door. It's just something that is not Italian. We would say apri quella cazzo di porta. [00:14:57] Matt Absalom: Exactly. [00:14:58] Vero Gheno: Okay. So. Okay. I'm sorry. This is a bit explicit. [00:15:01] Matt Absalom: That's a great example. [00:15:02] Vero Gheno: But. But the fact that the F-word is not part of of an Italian standard upbringing, and it's something that it came through the dubbing. Um, it's very interesting for me. There are, there are studies on the language of, of dubbing, which are quite fascinating because it's a new form of Italian which is non-existent. [00:15:21] Matt Absalom: Another subvariety. Yes. [00:15:24] Vero Gheno: Yes, exactly. Constructed. [00:15:26] Matt Absalom: Absolutely. Yeah. Going back to where we started with music, I often look at the Italian top ten. I look at the songs that are in the top ten, and I'm always really interested to see the number of English language songs in the top ten. Typically, it's either a 50/50 split or there's maybe a couple more Italian songs. But. But the presence of English is very pervasive in pop music or top 40 music. Do you think that exposure to English helps people, you know, like the generation you were talking about, your generation, they would hear English language songs. In fact, when I'm in Italy, I always hear English language songs that I haven't heard for a hundred years when I'm in Italy on the radio. [00:16:18] Vero Gheno: Because you're nostalgic. [00:16:19] Matt Absalom: Very nostalgic. Um, but do you think there's any effect from the, you know, that sort of exposure on the people's relationship with English? [00:16:32] Vero Gheno: Yes. But I think mine is not the first generation. For example, my mother, uh, who was born in 1949, and she's in she was born in Hungary. She learned English, first from the Beatles and then later in her life from Bruce Springsteen. She's a big fan of Bruce Springsteen. We went to a concert as well, and this is how she learned English, because she never studied English at school. She studied Russian and then Italian, of course, but never English. So her knowledge of English, which is even now, uh, she's in her 70s, she's it's quite basic, but it's an okay basic and came entirely from, from pop and rock, especially rock. In her case, I started to really appreciate English with my first purchases of of cassettes, because that's my age. And I still remember that my first cassette that I purchased in the 80s was The Final Countdown by Europe. [00:17:37] Matt Absalom: Okay. [00:17:38] Vero Gheno: And so a Swedish group who sung which sung in English. That was the first. And then I went to Madonna. I became a great fan of Madonna and I translated all the all the lyrics. So for me, the music was essential to have a first grasp of English. Uh, aside from what I learned in school, um, we have a problem in Italy. Um, now you learn English even in, um, middle school or elementary school. But most teachers are not native speakers and not even decent speakers, i have to say. So many, many people even now who learn in English, which is completely mispronounced like something like orange example instead of orange. Sure. And I think that the saviour here becomes again, uh, the fact that you can listen to the music in English. Yeah. I mean, yeah, movies and also music. [00:18:38] Matt Absalom: Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:39] Vero Gheno: Because if you have, probably you have, uh, something similar is happening also here, but, uh, my generation and our generation was, um, into, uh, certain musical moods. So if you were a goth or you were a, you know, a listener to heavy metal or pop, but you had a genre, a musical genre which was like one of your favourites. And nowadays I see that younger generation listen to every kind of music they can listen to trap one day and then to pop, and then they come and go from Taylor Swift to Grimes to whatever experimental music without missing a beat. [00:19:20] Matt Absalom: Yeah. Do you think that's because of the way we access music now? Mhm. Because, you know, if you've got your device, you've got this however thousand songs that you can just access. [00:19:33] Vero Gheno: Yeah. And the, also that the apps can create create a listening list for you. Yeah. Uh, adding a lot of, uh, artists you maybe you didn't even know. For example, I, I got into the tunnel of K-pop through my daughter, and I also went to a concert a couple of, of weeks ago by Stray Kids in Milan. It was a great show. 67,000 people dancing in the mud because there was a downpour just before the concert. But it was great. And, uh, my algorithm, uh, picked that up on the app I use to listen to music. And now I'm full of every kind of K-pop artist I didn't even know about, which is kind of very, you know, fascinating because you can also rebuild the things you have listened to. [00:20:25] Matt Absalom: Absolutely. [00:20:26] Vero Gheno: And this is very different from how we listened to music, uh, back in the days. [00:20:30] Matt Absalom: Exactly. I often think about, you sort of had to commit to things because you'd have to buy like the whole album. So, you know, or the cassette, you know. Whereas now you might just listen to one song by an artist, you know, you don't have that same level of commitment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to work out whether I felt bad about that or whether I liked it. [00:20:56] Vero Gheno: Back in the days. [00:20:57] Matt Absalom: No. Now, now. Yeah. Whether I think it's a loss or a gain. [00:21:02] Vero Gheno: It depends on how nostalgic you are. [00:21:04] Matt Absalom: Well, if I when I am nostalgic, of course, I've got everything at my fingertips anyway, so. So my daughter's in the music industry, and she talks a lot about how this sort of current model doesn't favour artists at all. Um, that it's very hard for artists to earn money under this model. Um, and so in, in some ways, yeah, I, it sort of makes me think of the sort of the ecology of the, you know, are we going to just end up with AI generated? [00:21:37] Vero Gheno: I hope not. [00:21:38] Matt Absalom: No, I hope not too. But, you know, I'm not sure the ramifications of the relationship that we have with music now have been fully played out. Yeah yeah. [00:21:50] Vero Gheno: Yeah yeah. I mean, it's easier from a certain point of view to listen to a lot of very different music. That's right. But but what you said here is very, very true, very important that it's more and more difficult to, to, to earn from the music you make. So probably that can have also an impact of on the quality of the music you make. I mean, how can you commit to, to to making good music if you cannot have a return economic return. [00:22:18] Matt Absalom: Have to spend all of your time working so that you can, you know, doing some other job so that you can. [00:22:25] Vero Gheno: So basically, music artists became like us writers. Absolutely. I can. I mean, I cannot live from the revenue of the books I write, and I have written 16 books and they are all circulating, but still I don't earn enough money to to stop my day job. [00:22:44] Matt Absalom: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. It's very interesting thinking about those creative industries and the situation, you know, that we're in now with this interface with technology. Yes. Mhm. But you know, even talking about writing, you know, and thinking about the physical book compared to electronic versions. We were talking in a, in a meeting the other day that our library here at the university wants to move a lot of physical books off campus now into an archive. And one of my colleagues was saying, one of the things that will be that we will lose is the serendipity of going to the shelf and getting the book that you want, but then looking either side of that book and going, oh, oh, I haven't seen this. This looks good. Our generation can appreciate that sort of activity but I don't know if generations, the younger ones that have never done that or never had that because, you know, they've always accessed their readings online or they've always had them electronically. They're interesting questions to think about, you know. [00:23:56] Vero Gheno: Yeah, I mean, there is one thing that we are losing right now, I think it's browsing not only through books but also through LPs, CDs or through whatever, because, uh, even through a vocabulary, because most things are direct access. [00:24:15] Matt Absalom: Absolutely. [00:24:16] Vero Gheno: Yeah. [00:24:16] Matt Absalom: And you look up the word that you want. [00:24:19] Vero Gheno: In the dictionary. [00:24:20] Matt Absalom: And you don't stay there. [00:24:21] Vero Gheno: And you don't see all the words around. [00:24:23] Matt Absalom: Absolutely way, which I love. One thing I love about Word Reference is if you do put a word in over on the left hand side, you see all the words near it. And because I'm a word sort of geeky type, I'll go, oh click. [00:24:39] Vero Gheno: And then you get lost. [00:24:40] Matt Absalom: And then I yeah. Then after half an hour looking at all these. [00:24:43] Vero Gheno: Words, I do the same. But I noted now that I'm looking after a lot of people writing their, uh, thesis. I have 60 theses right now in my hand. And one thing that my students are losing is the alphabetical order because they don't really need it. [00:25:04] Matt Absalom: Yeah. [00:25:04] Vero Gheno: And I'm not saying this in any kind of a scolding way. It's just, um, an observation. Yeah. I mean, you don't really have to browse through anything that has an alphabetical order. Whereas we had, you know, address books. [00:25:17] Matt Absalom: Absolutely. [00:25:18] Vero Gheno: The telephone nppl. [00:25:19] Matt Absalom: Yeah. [00:25:20] Vero Gheno: The yellow pages? [00:25:21] Matt Absalom: Yes. Yeah. [00:25:22] Vero Gheno: Uh, and also the vocabulary. Yeah. And I discovered this, uh, by chance, uh, because when they put together the bibliography, the list of books, they never think about putting them in alphabetical order. It's not just normal for them. [00:25:36] Matt Absalom: Wow. [00:25:37] Vero Gheno: Whereas for me, it's just it's like a reflex. You know, as soon as I have something to to put together, I put it in alphabetical order because it's easier to find it. [00:25:47] Matt Absalom: Yes. [00:25:47] Vero Gheno: And and and now I have to teach this, which is very interesting for me. [00:25:52] Matt Absalom: It is interesting. [00:25:54] Vero Gheno: So it was totally unrelated with music, but it came to mind because I remember the days when I went through LPs in the music shop. [00:26:03] Matt Absalom: Absolutely. That's right. [00:26:04] Vero Gheno: And they were in alphabetical order. And I was looking for, you know, one artist after the other. And then you found a cover that was very interesting, like an art. [00:26:12] Matt Absalom: Absolutely. [00:26:13] Vero Gheno: And, oh, I have never listened to this LP. And okay, we got into that very the phase of the good old times. Let's get back to the present times. Maybe it's better. [00:26:24] Matt Absalom: Um, we'll link back to our conversation about where we started with the, you know, the multilingualism. And, you know, you remember my question that I said, is it foreshadowing an openness? Mhm. Can we just talk for a moment about Italy as a multilingual multicultural country in the 21st century. In your view how is Italy coping with this, this this shifting identity if you like. [00:26:58] Vero Gheno: Well I think we have to go back to something that I already talked about a little bit. Is the uncertainty, um, towards their own roots, one's own roots. Um, one thing that my professor Tullio De Mauro always said is that we are like trees, so our roots have to be deep enough to to grow a stable trunk. And then to open the branches. You know, to other languages. But if you're missing the root part, you'll never have a good quality, a good tree, a good solid tree. And I think this, this, this metaphor is very good to represent the situation of Italy and Italians right now. Um, many people feel that the roots were cut because when they had to learn Italian in school, uh, their dialects were sanctioned a lot. I mean, there was this, uh, presumption that to make room for Italian, you had to forget dialects, which is, you know, totally. Uh. [00:28:12] Matt Absalom: Well, we understand today that it's not the case [00:28:14] Vero Gheno: [00:28:14] Matt Absalom: [00:28:14] Vero Gheno: We linguists especially know that you don't have to make room for a new language. There is a potentially place in your brain for all the languages you want and you need. But many generations, for example, my father always tells me that he used to be beaten in school with a cane on his fingers when he said something in his own dialect. He's from Veneto, and I think that this caused a sort of linguistic trauma in entire generations. So that's the root system, the problem of the root system. And if you have those roots, you cannot really enjoy a real openness towards other languages. This is my opinion, of course, but it's not completely, uh, you know, um, based on facts. And so it's not strange for me. It's not unusual for me that people are so afraid to open up Italian to other languages. Now, in fact, the vocabulary of Italian has always been very much exposed to other languages for the place Italy has in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea. So it has always been, you know, in the middle of migrating routes, commercial routes. So we have if you open the vocabulary, we have, uh, loans or gifts, somebody says, um, they are gifts, actually, not loans, because the other languages don't want them. But we have loans from, from like 50 different languages. Uh, it has never been a problem. Those who say, oh, we have to keep Italian pure. Um, I think the best answer to them is to say what would be pure Italian? Because if we consider pure Italian, only those words that come in a straight line from Latin, uh, we have to cut three quarters of our vocabulary. We have to cut out all the Arabic words, uh, all the ancient Greek words, all the, well, more recent loans from Provencal and whatever ancient French, ancient German and Italian has always been like that. So I think that those who want to preserve Italian from other languages, they just don't know the story of Italian. And this is something that should be taught much more in schools. For me. [00:30:38] Matt Absalom: What's your view on the alarmist - english is taking over Italian. English is polluting, um, the language. I'm always surprised that I continue to hear that. But then when I'm in Italy, sure, there's bits and pieces of English used here and there, but I don't feel like English is overtaking. [00:31:00] Vero Gheno: Of course it's not [00:31:00] Matt Absalom: The language. Yeah. [00:31:02] Vero Gheno: I think for some people it's easier to be afraid than to explore what's really happening between languages. Now, to this I have to add one thing: I said before that many Italians, for example, of my generation, do not speak English that well. And that means that for many Italians, English remains sort of a magical language that can give, uh, more, um, you know, a patina of luxury to any kind of discourse. Right. So, for example, in the field of marketing. Yes. Saying the same things you could say in Italian, in English, make them sound really posh. So it's not rare to listen to people saying things like, um, the reason why di questo project richiede che la buyer persona della skills. And this is this mixed language which we don't really need. [00:32:00] Matt Absalom: No. That's right. [00:32:01] Vero Gheno: So my advice to my students is always to while speaking Italian, think about, um, uh, think if you can say this in Italian, if you have the word for this in Italian, it's not necessary to use English. If English adds a layer of of meaning, then it's okay to use English. For example, in my field I study a lot of digital stuff, and of course English is everywhere. [00:32:25] Matt Absalom: Sure. [00:32:26] Vero Gheno: But it's part of technical jargon, I would say so. [00:32:31] Matt Absalom: Slightly different. [00:32:32] Vero Gheno: Yes, yes. I mean, if I say social network, I wouldn't say reti sociali because a rete sociale is also the one we have in reality. Whereas in Italian, the definition social network is, is pertains to what happens in the digital. [00:32:50] Matt Absalom: Absolutely. [00:32:51] Vero Gheno: For example. [00:32:52] Matt Absalom: Yeah. Um, I was just in Italy and in marketing language, I noticed there is this use of English that I, I mean, from, as a linguist myself, I find quite interesting. So there was a huge advertisement just near Santa Maria Novella in Florence for a bank. It was a Milanese bank and it said blah blah blah in Italian, then it said personal banker in English. So which I thought was really interesting because and as you say it does, it is trying to add another message to rather than saying, you know, whatever you might say in Italian because that's, that's eminently translatable in Italian. [00:33:38] Vero Gheno: Yeah. But banchiere personale it's, it's something so low level. Personal banker is completely different. You know, it's a glorified personality. But how can you contrast this? [00:33:51] Matt Absalom: Yes. [00:33:51] Vero Gheno: And so the traditionalists say you have to cut out English. We have to make laws that sanction the use of English. [00:34:01] Matt Absalom: Like in the early 20th century. [00:34:02] Vero Gheno: Yeah, like the good old bald guy. Yeah, that's exactly that one. Um, whereas De Mauro said, and I completely I completely agree with him that, uh, you can go over this, uh, idea that English makes everything sound better by learning more English, because those who really know English usually tend to use it less, uh, when not needed. I mean. [00:34:30] Matt Absalom: Sure. [00:34:31] Vero Gheno: Yeah. So multilingualism is the antidote for the crisis of any language. For me. [00:34:38] Matt Absalom: I like this. I'll use that as a quote. [00:34:42] Vero Gheno: Thank you. I'm very much hated for this. [00:34:44] Matt Absalom: Well, yeah. I mean, it's much easier sometimes to take a purist sort of point of view than, you know, to accept messiness. um, let's finish with your three recommendations for current sort of Italian songs that people should listen to. [00:35:04] Vero Gheno: Oh. [00:35:05] Matt Absalom: Well, I'm putting you on the spot now. [00:35:08] Vero Gheno: That's difficult for me. I have one personal favourite. Uh, he's tha Supreme. Uh, he's very young, uh, trapper, musician and also producer. Um, and there are a lot of very nice songs by him. Uh, for example, one is called Bilico. Okay. If you can listen to that. And then my favourite, uh, all time favourite Italian group is Subsonica. They are from Turin. Every song is good. Yeah. Subsonica is. Yeah, 100% positive. Everything. I love them so much. And then, uh, let's put also a female in the bunch so that we are trying to, you know, um, actually, it's tha Supreme's sister. Okay, uh, who has a really beautiful voice. She is called Mara Sattei. Okay. She is a Sarah Mattei, but her stage name is Mara Sattei. And, uh, also, every song by her is a really nice to listen to [00:36:09] Matt Absalom: Fabulous. [00:36:09] Vero Gheno: Oh, this is worse than an exam. [00:36:13] Matt Absalom: Um, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me today. [00:36:18] Vero Gheno: Thank you. [00:36:24] Matt Absalom: Thanks for joining Matt's Chitchats, part of the University of Melbourne's School of Languages and Linguistics Secret Life of Language podcast. A special thanks to our guest Vera Gheno. This episode was recorded and mixed at the Horwood Recording Studio by Gavin Nebauer. Produced by me and Gavin Nebauer. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your favourite podcast platform. This episode is licensed under Creative Commons 2025.