Choc-tops and Cassata - Bonus Episode - The Castle: the most quintessential Australian movie with an Italian vibe? [00:00:02] Santo Cilauro: Ciao, Benvenuti. Welcome to Choc Tops and Cassata, the podcast that takes a peek into the way migrants got their fix of Italian movies, from World War Two to the advent of SBS in the early 80s. [00:00:15] Elisabetta Ferrari: This is a Secret Life of Language podcast from the School of Languages and Linguistics at the University of Melbourne. I'm Elisabetta Ferrari, lecturer in Italian studies at the University of Melbourne. [00:00:27] Mark Nicholls: I'm Mark Nicholls. I research and teach in film in the School of Culture and Communications at the University of Melbourne. [00:00:34] Santo Cilauro: And I'm Santo Cilauro. I'm not a lecturer in anything. I'm a writer. I'm a filmmaker and an unashamed connoisseur of all Italian B-grade movies, regardless of where they were made. Sicily, Calabria or way up north in Naples. [00:00:50] Elisabetta Ferrari: Santo Mark and I have been thinking about something that you said during one of the podcasts. [00:00:55] Santo Cilauro: Uh oh. Was it libelous? [00:00:57] Mark Nicholls: An outrageous statement. [00:00:58] Elisabetta Ferrari: I know, and I said, The Spanish Inquisition is here now. And so we want to talk about this idea of The Castle being an Italian film. [00:01:07] Santo Cilauro: Oh, did I say that? Did I? Yeah. Are you sure? [00:01:10] Mark Nicholls: Totally. [00:01:10] Elisabetta Ferrari: Absolutely. [00:01:11] Mark Nicholls: We can get Gavin to wind the tape back. [00:01:13] Elisabetta Ferrari: And actually, we will. You know. [00:01:19] Santo Cilauro: "So I co-wrote a film called The Castle. And to me, it's a very Italian film. Yes. People say it's the most quintessentially Australian film I can think of. And I sit there and go, isn't that funny? Because I, I think of it as the opposite. I think of it as a very Italian film. Yeah." Quote from part 3 of Choc-tops and Cassata. [00:01:36] Santo Cilauro: Wow. And I guess I said it, I said it in. I said it earnestly did I? Did I say it seriously? It wasn't flippant. [00:01:42] Elisabetta Ferrari: No, no no no it wasn't. [00:01:44] Santo Cilauro: I've often thought it. I've often thought it. I accept that it's a slightly strange thing to say, because it's like saying it's like Italian food, but what specifically in Italian food? What, what kind of films? What kind of Italian film is it like? Is it like a Fellini film? Definitely not. I think I said it. It's it's to me, it's a very Italian film because of the Italian films that I saw. So in the same way that a lot of things that I write are very influenced by Elvis Presley or Jerry Lewis or the wrestling, because that's what I saw. So when I talk about The Castle being a very Italian film, I think it's a very Italian film according to the Italian films that I saw at the time, which were which were usually about family, it was always set in a, you know, either in the in, in, in their home, in their apartment or in their country home or whatever it is. And it was usually pretty simple. It was like a fable. And it usually started off with Once Upon a Time and ended with, and they lived happily ever after. Now, I'm sure there's lots of films in all sorts of languages and cultures that are the same as that, but I always thought that The Castle reminded me of Italian films. [00:02:56] Mark Nicholls: That's really interesting because actually, when you said that I actually didn't think about Italian films, I felt I thought about films about Italians, but which we could get on to. But I wonder whether we unpack this idea a little bit about what are the sort of films that it looks like, because that seems to me to tap into exactly what we're talking about on this podcast is those films that you saw in Clifton Hill in when you were a kid, and whether that was the point of contact with what came out from your part. [00:03:27] Santo Cilauro: And I think that it is as a starting point, but I'd be I'd I'd love to be talked out of it. I'd like to know if I'm wrong. [00:03:34] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah, well, I'm sure we can demonstrate how Australian it is. You know, this film for me. [00:03:39] Mark Nicholls: Is am I the token skip again in this conversation? [00:03:42] Elisabetta Ferrari: I know, I know, and I'm the Italian here. But as I was rewatching it, I'm thinking there are a few elements that are absolutely so Australian, and it's very difficult for me to see it as an Italian film. But then again, I can understand this idea of the inspiration. You know what really or what were the formative films for your career? And also, there is an element that I have to admit that is a little bit about a kind of almost nostalgia, about a certain idea of identity, of community or life that comes out of the film. [00:04:24] Santo Cilauro: I just think that at the very heart of it, there's an unconditional love that that exists there that doesn't really exist in films that I Anglo-Saxony kind of films. This, that underlying unconditional love, no matter what it is. And you keep undercutting it, you know, there's people in jail, there's they, you know, they do illegal things, they steal gates. There's all sorts of things that are immoral in society. But at the same time, underpinning everything is just this love for each other, no matter what. You know, the the brothers love each other and they'll go visit each other in jail every week, whatever it is. The dad loves the daughter and wants her to, you know, he thinks she's destined for very big things because she's such a good hairdresser. It's just this absolute faith, um, that I seem to grow up with those kind of films where those Italian films. I wish I could say which ones they were, but they're so embedded in my memory, so I haven't even seen, I don't think I've, I saw as a kid the Alberto Sordi and Claudia Cardinale one, the one they shot in Australia. The, uh. [00:05:31] Elisabetta Ferrari: Bello onesto emigrante.. [00:05:32] Mark Nicholls: Yeah, yeah. For the benefit of the non-Italian listeners in English, it's called Girl in Australia. [00:05:37] Santo Cilauro: Girl in Australia. Really? [00:05:39] Elisabetta Ferrari: That's right. [00:05:40] Mark Nicholls: It would have been a much easier title, even in Italian. [00:05:42] Santo Cilauro: But to me but that's the kind of film I think I'm talking about. It's not it's not Fellini. It's not, you know, complete. It's not a take off of a Ben-Hur kind of movie. It's these their heart is in the right place kind of movies. And I love those movies. [00:06:00] Mark Nicholls: A good friend and I had a debate recently about about the film, and we were talking about when Daryl's all proud of his daughter, played by Sophie Lee, uh, because she got a certificate from a TAFE and, and my friend was saying, oh, isn't that a bit like classist and talking down? I said, no, no, I don't think you get it. I think it's about the warmth of that. And, you know, you can think your kid can do the most ridiculously sort of mundane thing. But as a parent, you can be proud of anything, whether they got a PhD from Oxford or a certificate from a college in TAFE. And that to me is interesting about how how it addresses issues of class in a way. But I disagreed with my friend thinking that it's much more positive and more community and more kind of collegial or something. As I've often seen, this kind of humour upset middle class people because they think there's a sort of a talking down to. And I mean, obviously. [00:07:02] Santo Cilauro: Well we felt bullet-proof because it was based on stories of our own families. So we we had no fear of that at all. So our approach was just be unashamed. You you know what I mean? No man is a hypocrite in his own pleasure. So this is what they do. This is them. And I'm not going to be half cocked about it. It's that's how they love each other. And and he's proud that she's got I don't care whether you perceive it as a, as being patronising. That's possibly more a reflection on you so that you know, you're proud of your own kids, you're proud of what they do no matter what. And you know, and Daryl in the film, he actually says with his son Wayne, who's in prison. You know, maybe I could have done better. Maybe I could have done better. That's all you need to say. He questions that. He questions that. But he knows his son's going to come out. In fact, that's what one of one of the main gripes that he's got with leaving home is that his son's going to come out of prison and not go back to his home. [00:08:04] Mark Nicholls: Yes. [00:08:05] Santo Cilauro: So in that sense, going back to the italianness of it, the films that I saw, the Italian films that I saw were very they stand and deliver. They were not ashamed. They just told the story the way it is. And you either like the story or you don't like the story. You like the characters or you don't like the characters. There's no there's no sense of apology or or being, you know, approaching with, you know, sort of baby, baby steps. [00:08:30] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. I think that in that way really connects with those films that came out in Italy. Um, you know, in, in the 60s, in the 70s. And to me there is a little bit of a commedia all'italiana in the castle, I have to say, but in a different way, as you're saying, you know, there is almost like a fairy tale, you know, it starts and then there is a happily ever after at the end, whereas the commedia all'italiana certainly doesn't have that. So, um, that's I always thought that in a way is a very strong difference in between the, the commedia all'italiana and or the comedy Italian style and the film like The Castle, whereas the comedy Italian style can be really harsh, really strong in the critique and in the satire of that particular society. And so Italians would go and watch the film. You laugh, but you think, oh, you see yourself, but you can see that there is a critique and a very strong critique, whereas in this film there is a sense of warmth towards, I think, the characters. And so. [00:09:40] Santo Cilauro: Oh yes, before we even set up the jokes, we set up the warmth of the characters, the even the son telling the story. We chose a 14 year old boy or 13 year old boy or whatever, in because it's a time it's before you're you're being rebellious to your parents, or maybe you're just starting or whatever it is, but you still think your dad is a hero. You know, no matter what, you know, even when he comes back with stories about the cars that he's been working with, wow, it's incredible. He's a tow truck, tow truck driver. He's incredible what he does. So there's an innocence and there's a love right from the very start. The one thing that I should probably ask you about this, um, Elisabetta and that is, uh, the film played very big in Australia, and it played very big in Ireland okay. So, and I'm just trying to think of the characteristics, which is certainly in this country, and I presume we get it from Ireland. And that is the distrust of the big this the big guy versus small guy. So you look at at in Italy I get a different sense. So when you look at somebody walking down Via Veneto in a fur coat, Italian you'll say, you've got to hand it to him, he's doing well. Whereas here you go, wanker. [00:10:45] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. Absolutely. [00:10:47] Santo Cilauro: So that that to me, I'm not sure. I'm not sure whether I'm arguing against myself here that it maybe is not as Italian as I think, because this whole small guy versus the big guy, it must be a universal theme. But is it that big in Italy? I mean, with Toto and films like that, was it always that the the underdog tries to get it over the the the the the big guy? [00:11:10] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah, I think that in, you know, in the Italian culture it's quite different. This idea of the aspiration of being at the top and being important, but also is quite there is quite a sense of the class that you know you are in and you don't find it I think as much in The Castle. And it's quite interesting because when it goes to court and he sees the the QC he is playing down on what he does, he says, oh, maybe I can help you. Oh yes. You know and it's really very interesting how he is actually playing down the level of his work and what he can do and is happy to. So it's quite difficult to see the difference in class there. [00:11:54] Santo Cilauro: Um, interesting. Yeah. So there's no he's actually playing down the difference in class that that is possibly I could imagine if that was an Italian film that's, that's a nuance that you would not see. [00:12:05] Elisabetta Ferrari: No probably not. [00:12:06] Santo Cilauro: Someone actually saying, yeah, yeah, I've got a little bit of experience and.. [00:12:09] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. Or even the naivety, you know, of him thinking, oh well, he's just another lawyer and he's just here maybe helping his son that, you know, or someone that is in trouble. So there is a naivety that, uh, it's it's really sweet. And I think that usually you don't find that in Italian films, Italian films... [00:12:29] Mark Nicholls: If that was an Italian film, the QC would say, hey, I'm, I'm. [00:12:33] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. And the other person, [00:12:35] Mark Nicholls: By the way, hello, my name is doctor Mark Nichols. [00:12:38] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. [00:12:40] Elisabetta Ferrari: And and the other person would say, oh, you know, we are really playing with the different levels in society. [00:12:47] Mark Nicholls: But it's also don't brag about yourself. I mean. [00:12:49] Santo Cilauro: Yes. [00:12:50] Elisabetta Ferrari: And this is exactly the opposite of what's happening, you know, in Italy where everyone would just introduce themselves as a Dottore Commendatore. [00:12:59] Santo Cilauro: And you correct me if I'm wrong Elisabetta. Don't Italians say that reserve or is it flemma? What's. What's the word for? To be reserved? [00:13:09] Mark Nicholls: Reserved? [00:13:10] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. You can use flemma or, uh. [00:13:13] Santo Cilauro: But they say the flemma is, it's a British, it's a British trait. [00:13:17] Elisabetta Ferrari: To be reserved. I would think so. Yeah, yeah, [00:13:19] Santo Cilauro: They actually say it's a British trait. Yeah. [00:13:21] Elisabetta Ferrari: I think that Italians like very much, you know, Italians to use their titles and to assert who they are. And they're very in tune of all of the reference. Um, you know. [00:13:33] Mark Nicholls: There's a there's an interview with your colleague who worked on the film, Jane Kennedy, and she says in her childhood, the worst crime was to be up yourself. [00:13:43] Santo Cilauro: Yes. She comes from a strong Irish family so yeah. [00:13:46] Mark Nicholls: And that's the I think the Irish thing is really interesting that that, that sense of and particularly where Eric Bana, you know, he says, oh goodness, I've got problems with the legal system. And then later on he says, it's restored my faith in the legal system. That kind of thing about, you know, I can see why it's popular in Ireland, put it that way. Yeah, that whole idea is don't be up yourself and have a go at those who are up themselves and and be suspicious of authority. [00:14:10] Santo Cilauro: Yes. And I guess I'm just wondering that that same family in Italy, you know, would they be a lot more not cunning, but they're streetwise. There'd be there'd be an element of street wisdom as opposed to that, that idealism. No, no, I've got this. It's all sorted. I've got this. Right. Yeah, yeah. [00:14:31] Elisabetta Ferrari: And I think that is that element that the Italian define as furbizia, you know, being furbo, which is very difficult to translate, it's very difficult to translate because it really means to be, um, cunning and wise at the same time, you know. [00:14:49] Mark Nicholls: Dodgy. [00:14:49] Elisabetta Ferrari: So yeah, you know. Yeah and dodgy as well. [00:14:52] Santo Cilauro: In many cases, Daryl Kerrigan is that, you know, he does do things you know, he doesn't get council approval for, you know, the aerials. And you know, he he does steal gates. He you know there's reference to it even I think Dennis Denuto is, he said something like uh, he actually has a go in the court case. He says "he's got a pretty good set of gates", as in, you stole the gates, though. [00:15:17] Mark Nicholls: Exactly. [00:15:17] Santo Cilauro: Yeah. Um, we did everything by the law, with the law. You know, I didn't tell him about the gates, I think. [00:15:23] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah, but I think it's the way he does it in a very open and naive way. He's not trying, you know, to. I mean, he is, you know, going against the law, but he still has got faith in law because he will think, well, you know, this is going to be my right I'm going to, you know, contest it. [00:15:46] Santo Cilauro: This takes us to a very just I mean, it's interesting that you actually said that he's got faith in the law because I don't know whether I've told you guys, but the film was going to be made in Italian. It was going to be there was going to be an Italian version of it, and it was going very well. I was having a very good relationship with the, um, with the, the writer, the person who was adapting it. And there was a fork in the path. And after I said, no, no, you can't, you can't go that way. That's changing the story too much. He never spoke to me again. [00:16:17] Elisabetta Ferrari: He got offended. [00:16:18] Santo Cilauro: He got offended. [00:16:19] Mark Nicholls: And do you remember what the fork was? [00:16:21] Elisabetta Ferrari: Exactly? [00:16:22] Santo Cilauro: You've just brought you because you brought it up. He didn't want it. He didn't want the Kerrigans to go through the court system. [00:16:28] Elisabetta Ferrari: Okay, that's quite interesting. [00:16:30] Santo Cilauro: No, he said, we don't we don't go to any courts. We don't end up in the High Court. That just would not happen in Italy. No, it just would not happen in Italy. And he wanted to resolve it on television. On television shows? [00:16:41] Mark Nicholls: Yes. [00:16:41] Elisabetta Ferrari: Oh so Italian! [00:16:42] Santo Cilauro: On variety shows. Where where you get people behind you and they start. And I said, I love the idea, but it can only work when it's a legitimate. The family has to win in a community, legitimate in a societal, legitimate way. They can't take any shortcuts. They have to win, absolutely. They have to win. The law has to look at them and say, no, no, no. You're right. That's that's the vibe of the law. Otherwise it's counterproductive. It's like you're never going to win against the law, which these Italians guys were saying, and they're true. But I'm saying that's when you're you're departing from the whole fable of the story. [00:17:19] Mark Nicholls: Mhm. [00:17:19] Santo Cilauro: You know what I mean. I know that's not true. It wouldn't happen in Australia. [00:17:22] Mark Nicholls: You get you get a High Court date in three weeks. [00:17:25] Elisabetta Ferrari: I know, I know, but maybe in Australia you will get it in I don't know. [00:17:30] Mark Nicholls: Years? [00:17:31] Elisabetta Ferrari: A year and in Italy, in Italy you will get it in 20 years. I don't know, but maybe that in Italian is very too far fetched. [00:17:41] Mark Nicholls: Is the thing about Daryl and his family is that they have no sense of bella figura? They don't care what other people think. [00:17:50] Elisabetta Ferrari: Absolutely. [00:17:51] Mark Nicholls: I'm not saying that is an Italian thing. [00:17:53] Mark Nicholls: It's an Italian concept, but. And I'm. [00:17:55] Elisabetta Ferrari: Oh, it's a very much. [00:17:56] Mark Nicholls: Many people who are Italian who have no care about that either. But but it is it is out there as a kind of an idea. Daryl, you know, they love living in that in, you know, we're going to Bonnie Doon. Yeah. Like, you know, and there's no there's no self-consciousness because they're I think they're all kind of heroes and they don't care whether or do they not even know? [00:18:17] Santo Cilauro: Well, maybe it's the opposite of what you're saying, Mark. Maybe that is in their minds that that is bella figura. My my home at Bonnie Doon. It's not it's not a what does he say? It's not a caravan. It's a it's a holiday home. [00:18:30] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. [00:18:30] Santo Cilauro: It's not a. Yeah. Did he say it's not a tent it's a. [00:18:32] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. [00:18:33] Santo Cilauro: It's not a caravan. It's not a camper. It's a, it's a house. [00:18:36] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. [00:18:36] Santo Cilauro: So so that is the bella figura. And also what, what his bella figura is actually even more altruistic. It's very, uh, it's very Don Quixote in the sense that he has got morals. And in fact, his wife Sal, when she tells the story about when she used to go out on a date with her ex-boyfriend, she points up at, I like this guy because he had morals. He had he had morals, right? Um, so yeah, I don't know whether maybe you are right. Maybe bella figura, they don't, it doesn't matter about bella figura. It's about being honest um, to your to your ideals and to be loyal to your family and to your friends. And there are so many shows now, like Yellowstone is based on not losing your home. You know, you're you're hanging on to your your home is sacrosanct. You can't you can't take that away. And it's funny because a lot of a lot of accidental things have happened to a lot of Working Dog works over the years, and different meanings get ascribed to to what we do. So. And one of them, for The Castle, was that it's a metaphor for indigenous land rights in this country, which I can assure you we didn't write for that. But it often happens that you accidentally come across something, so it is deeply embedded in, no, this is my right. This is this is my home. And I don't care what you say about it, how bad you think it looks, whether there's a plane flying overhead, whether there's lead in the soil. It's my home and you just can't touch that now. Um, and that overrides everything. But I'm not sure whether that's a moral bella figura. [00:20:11] Elisabetta Ferrari: I think that bella figura is a very complex kind of, uh, um, you know, cultural, um, idea because it's not just about how you show yourself, but it's being very, very aware of how other people see you. And so what you have, um, you're very conscious, I mean, in this idea of bella figura, if you're, you know, in, in Italy, you would be very aware of what is your level and what you are displaying or what you know you are wearing and what you are saying, and how is that perceived by others? Whereas I think in the film, really there is like an acceptance, a total acceptance of the level of, you know, their what they have and what they can, um, display or show. And there is an acceptance of that. Whereas I think in an Italian view, you always maybe are um, you think that you might have to show that you are more than what you are. [00:21:13] Santo Cilauro: Don't don't forget. I mean, Daryl Kerrigan has a pool room where he displays all his things. Now, so he is displaying them. You know what I mean? He's not just, he's not just accepting his stuff, which he loves. He not only accepts them, he wants to show them they are to be shown off. So there is there is a sense of that. There is. [00:21:31] Elisabetta Ferrari: But that's very much a sense of pride of what he has achieved. [00:21:35] Santo Cilauro: Yes. And pride in pride in what people have given him. So he stares at his daughters, um, TAFE certificate. He stares at it. [00:21:44] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. [00:21:45] Santo Cilauro: And he stares at at, um, power lines. He stares at anything which which he thinks are awesome is awesome. [00:21:52] Mark Nicholls: To me, the pool room makes me think of the baroque lounge with the plastic still on it. You know, that's not even coming out of the out of the package. [00:21:59] Santo Cilauro: No, no, [00:22:00] Elisabetta Ferrari: Exactly. [00:22:00] Mark Nicholls: Because we don't want it to get dirty. There's something about. [00:22:03] Santo Cilauro: And I have to tell you, the people that actually lent us the house, that when we said, well, don't worry, we'll get it back to how it was before they said, no, we love this wallpaper. And, um, they a lot of the house stayed exactly the same as when we, and it's been moved now to a, to a different place. I think it's a, it's a, it's a museum or something somewhere, and it's been transported somewhere else. [00:22:24] Elisabetta Ferrari: Well, that's certainly an element that is so Australian. When I watched this film, I think there's something about in the house in the, in the decor that to me it just says Australia. [00:22:35] Santo Cilauro: Yes. [00:22:36] Elisabetta Ferrari: Not to mention in the garden that there is, you know, that contraption that is an Australian thing. The Hills Hoist? [00:22:44] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. Yeah. You've got Australian comedy. You've got to have a Hills Hoist. [00:22:48] Elisabetta Ferrari: Well, no all films. I really I'm starting to think that when you go through, I don't know, screen Victoria or, you know, like the Screen Commission and you are asking for funding, there must be a little box and it says it's an Australian film. It has to show an Hills Hoist otherwise you don't get any funding. [00:23:05] Santo Cilauro: Here's a bonus to the bonus episode. My father in law tried to sell Hills Hoists in Italy. [00:23:11] Elisabetta Ferrari: Oh! [00:23:11] Santo Cilauro: He Almost went broke. Well, I tell you,it did not work in Italy. Did not work in Italy at all. He thought they were the best thing here. And he said, oh my God, these Hills are. If no one's got them in Italy, no one at all. [00:23:23] Elisabetta Ferrari: Absolutely. [00:23:23] Elisabetta Ferrari: I'll tell you a funny story. When I moved to Australia, I was living in Adelaide and I just arrived in Australia and my parents came to visit. And clearly, you know, we had a house, in the background you could see the neighbours with the Hills Hoist in the middle of their garden. We didn't have one, but the neighbours did. And one morning my parents had just arrived. I could see and hear them in the kitchen and, you know, my mum calling my dad saying, hey, come and have a look. I said, what? Look at that contraption. What's that? And they are laughing and saying, what's that? I don't know what's what is it? And anyway, it's got clothes hanging on there, you know, and then, you know, a little bit of wind arrives and they start to move around and they are, you know, like they are laughing, you know, saying, oh, look, it turns around and they could not believe that you would have, first of all, something like that in the middle of your backyard. And secondly, that you would put clothes which my mum rightly so, said, look, they are in the sun, they are going to, you know, all of the colours, they are going to fade, all of the whites are going to become yellow. That's not really useful. So there you are. So it's. [00:24:33] Santo Cilauro: That's why yeah. [00:24:34] Mark Nicholls: I've got to say,talking about Hills Hoist's, talking about stuff in the Kerrigan garden in the house. I don't know why we're not saying this is a this isn't a Fellini film. I mean, that imagery is when think about The Hills Hoist that, to me, could be totally in the last scene of Otto e mezzo. Yeah. The surrealist thing, I think is, is there's a lot of that, you know, this I mean, you look at it from an outsider point of view and think, that's pretty weird. Not something, you know, like, okay, so he's sitting in the back garden at the end of the thing and he's finally got his patio, but he's done it Greek style. [00:25:08] Santo Cilauro: Like there is an absurdity to it all. [00:25:11] Elisabetta Ferrari: Well, not to mention what they wear. I mean, some of the outfits are just hilarious. And there is one with kangaroos that I think that same as he also is. [00:25:21] Mark Nicholls: That's the sort of kitsch thing. [00:25:22] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah, I know, but that idea of Australian film that you have to have the two elements. But also can we talk about the food, you know. [00:25:31] Santo Cilauro: Right. Yeah. Not very Italian. [00:25:33] Mark Nicholls: I have seen this film so many times, but I watched it again last night to prepare for our discussion. And the one thing I noticed last night that I'd never seen before is, you know, he says, oh, what's this? It's really nice. And she goes, oh, it's chicken. And then one of the boys grabs the tomato sauce and pours it all over. Beautiful. [00:25:53] Santo Cilauro: Having actually had dinner many a time at the Sitch family house that Charlie Sitch the dad would compliment the mum no end. And you know, Rob would turn around going, what is he doing? I mean, really is he is he? To be complimented on really simple stuff is beautiful, but at the same time it is funny because you know, you that's intended to be that as in it really? Is it really all that special? I don't think it actually is, because I think Rob still talks about his aunt. He goes, oh, Auntie Jean's risotto. Oh my God. And he said it was, it was just he said he came round to a barbecue at my father in law's place once and he said, oh my God, that's food. That's that's food. Not, not that other stuff. But but to to compliment you on that stuff is fantastic, isn't it? [00:26:37] Elisabetta Ferrari: I know it's really sweet. It's really, really good. [00:26:41] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. And I mean in that regards maybe that's where I find more, the Italian, you know, this idea that that family really always unites, you know, around the table and have a dinner together. [00:26:57] Santo Cilauro: I initially said that it's an Italian film. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I was there for the for the writing of it and the production of it, which probably reminds me of how Italian films were made in the early days. [00:27:08] Mark Nicholls: Interesting. [00:27:08] Santo Cilauro: And they were like, you know, necessity is the mother of invention. The other day I said to my dad, oh, isn't it great that you ate a lot of chicory when you were? He goes, that's all we had. [00:27:17] Mark Nicholls: All we had. [00:27:18] Santo Cilauro: So you're sitting there, you're saying, isn't it great that that neorealist films were shot so, so gritty and they're just saying, well, you tell me another way for me to have shot it. I know that I don't know whether we've spoken Mark before about the Zeffirelli's claiming that neorealism was created because that was stolen stock from Kodak. [00:27:37] Mark Nicholls: Yeah, there's a lot of stories about with Città Aperta, Open City and how they stole power from the American embassies and they stole footage from, uh, film stock from, from, you know, whatever was around. And a lot of put together. I think some of those things are a bit mythological, but I think they, they represent, I mean, what I think and I'm really glad you've taken into this direction the idea that the kind of guerrilla style filmmaking and, you know, I wouldn't exactly say that this is guerrilla style filmmaking. [00:28:08] Santo Cilauro: No, no, not guerrilla,no. [00:28:09] Mark Nicholls: But but the way that the production conditions contribute to how we read the film and how we interpret the film and what's happening behind the camera, what's happening in pre-production, in post, and those sorts of things I think are. And that to me, that's an interesting way of thinking about this in that kind of context. [00:28:26] Santo Cilauro: Well, you can clearly tell that there are Italian films where there's there's a conversation going on and there are no reverses. It's just two people talking to each other. Clearly, they just weren't they weren't going to shoot reverse shots. [00:28:36] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. [00:28:37] Santo Cilauro: They just said we don't we can't double the filming here. We just do it fast, you know, do it fast. So so we certainly did that. You know, we could only afford 180 minutes worth of film. And I remember coming back from the Kodak factory and I've said it, you know, and guys, we can do it if we just don't do it in more than two takes. It's as simple as that. And let's write it simply. [00:28:58] Mark Nicholls: Yeah, it was almost 1 to 1, wasn't it? We've talked about this before, but. [00:29:02] Santo Cilauro: Yeah, it was. It was somewhere between 1 to 1 and one and 2 to 1. We certainly didn't need two takes all the time. [00:29:08] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. So just to clarify that, that, you know, um, 1 to 1 or 1 to 2 is really quite rare in contemporary filmmaking. Um, because so many things can go wrong here in the gate, everything. And also, I think, if you don't mind me, you know, we've talked about this before, about its relationship to the making of The Dish and that kind of dynamic, I think is perhaps worth exploring. [00:29:30] Santo Cilauro: Well, that's, that's such a different they're so different. You know, we actually got a proper cinematographer and we, we know we wanted to make that film look the way it actually ended up looking like, whereas we wanted the castle to look like a storybook, it needed to turn pages. In fact, I think the film starts off with a montage for quite a long time, and the the proper scenes really start when there's one day there was a knock at the door to change all that. And then there were scenes. Before that there was just montage, bits and montage, and it ends quite early on. It actually ends with and and Dad and Mr. Hamill and, um, and Dennis Denuto went to the High Court of Australia. I don't think there are any scenes after that. They basically roll up at the High Court, they look up and then the rest are in bits and pieces. Dad reckons that the QC was like a greyhound at the track. And then we had a party and then this happened and then that happened. And then they all lived happily ever after. Um, so it was a very simple film in that sense because we knew we couldn't overshoot it. It had to be done like that, whereas The Dish clearly wasn't, you know, it had to be constructed, constructed properly. You know, we had two units. We had a, you know, first unit, a second unit to, to do all the outside stuff. So it was more complex. But uh, so in that sense, going back to it, I think it maybe was like an Italian. I mean, when I read about those swords and sandals movies that were made in, in Rome in the, in the 50s and 60s, they were basically out of work stunt people who just said, what are we going to do? I know change you change your name to Heston Charles. There was a guy called Heston Charles who played basically what Charlton Heston always used to play in those films, and he would have been a stunt person or a or a fill in or something like that, and they just created their films that way. They just would make them up almost as they went along. And they're the kind of films that I saw. Um, so maybe my assessment of it as a, as an Italian film is maybe tinged a bit, knowing that it was made in that way. [00:31:33] Mark Nicholls: Why did you make the film? [00:31:36] Santo Cilauro: Well, this is a really odd thing. It's because we wanted to make The Dish. We had written the dish, and we had then presented it to our distributors who had been distributing our shows. We were doing a show called Frontline at the time on the ABC. They were film distributors and invested in films as well, and they looked at the script. Admittedly, it wasn't, it wasn't the same script as what eventually got made as The Dish, you know, whatever, ten years later. But they said, oh, no, it's just. Yeah. No, it's not, not quite right. You guys should stick to telly. We didn't get upset about it. Mind you, we still got that letter. That letter sits up on our wall. But we said, let's make a practice movie. Let's make it cheap. How much money have we got? Let's go to Kodak. This is the film we got. Let's do it. Let's learn. And then they came back, the same distributors came back and said, oh, this is. Can we give you a bit more money to complete the film? Because we hadn't shot any of the exteriors or anything yet. Um, and then it became a thing. But even even when it came out as a, as a film, it wasn't immediately successful. It stayed on the charts almost an entire year, uh, back in the days when if it didn't work in the first two weeks, you could still stay there, and eventually it sort of kicked in. So it made a bit at the box office. Then television stations were interested in the film because it had become a sort of a bit of a sort of phenomenon. And then I think the film really took off on TV. You know, when people talk about it's, you know, Australia's most loved movie and all that because of television, not not because of cinema. I mean, Crocodile Dundee was a cinema sensation. Strictly Ballroom and Muriel's Wedding, they were cinema sensations. Kenny was and everything. But, um, I think that The Castle grew on TV. Which again, does that make it a bit more Italian? [00:33:19] Mark Nicholls: Certainly that relationship with TV. [00:33:21] Santo Cilauro: Tv in Italy is absolutely massive isn't it. [00:33:23] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. Yeah it is. Yeah. And a lot of Italians still watch a lot of movies on TV. [00:33:29] Mark Nicholls: I mean, perhaps not so much right now because of streaming, but 10 or 20 years ago, were you going to make a film in Italy if you didn't think it had a TV life? I mean, probably not. [00:33:39] Elisabetta Ferrari: Probably not, probably not, yeah. [00:33:42] Mark Nicholls: I mean, I think now with streaming, it's loosened things up a little bit. [00:33:45] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. [00:33:45] Mark Nicholls: But then you're not going to make anything that's not going to stream now. [00:33:48] Santo Cilauro: No, no, of course not. [00:33:49] Mark Nicholls: So we're thinking that this film, The Castle, which Santo's being modest is one of the is a huge cultural phenomenon in this country, you know, was perhaps made because they're trying to get another film made. [00:34:02] Mark Nicholls: So it's not it's not the it's not the reason for the season yet it has become. And you know, I actually I'll say it, I prefer The Dish. I think the dish is one of the great films. [00:34:11] Santo Cilauro: So do I. [00:34:11] Mark Nicholls: That anyone's made. [00:34:12] Santo Cilauro: I love The Dish. [00:34:13] Mark Nicholls: But the idea that The Castle is the only reason we got The Dish, you know, not the only reason I guess. [00:34:18] Santo Cilauro: But don't you think that's a bit, but it's, there were so many happy accidents. [00:34:20] Santo Cilauro: There were so many great, happy accidents. [00:34:22] Elisabetta Ferrari: Absolutely. [00:34:22] Santo Cilauro: And it's also maybe the film we needed to make because it is genuinely a tribute to all the writers families. It's a genuine tribute. When we when we first showed the movie at a little cinema in Richmond, just to see whether people actually got it or laughed or whatever, there were big laughs. And at the same time there were these little oohs and ahs going, oh, that's that's literally our conversation. That's that's us, you know, and you can hear them from different parts of, of the cinema because it was like the Cilauro family had some oohs, the Kennedys did, you know. [00:34:53] Mark Nicholls: Did anyone, did anyone get get cranky? [00:34:56] Santo Cilauro: No, no, no, not at all. [00:34:58] Elisabetta Ferrari: But to me it's really very interesting because also in a way shows what it's like to make a film maybe without that pressure of production. [00:35:07] Santo Cilauro: Yes. [00:35:08] Elisabetta Ferrari: And and that really ties back into with the Italian filmmaking, you know, because a lot of the, you know, great directors, you think of Fellini or Rossellini, they did, you know, they were auteur. They wanted to make a film as they wanted without too much interference. And I think this film maybe fits in with this idea, you know, we are going to make it. We don't have this huge pressure from a lot of investment in money. And you really working on something that you believe in. [00:35:40] Santo Cilauro: Well, maybe it's why Marcello Mastroianni never made it in Hollywood, because maybe there was either too much pressure that, you know, he was going to be the next big thing. You know, he was going to be the male version of Sophia Loren and possibly the films that he was in. There were there was pressure on them. And then all of a sudden comes back to Italy and is even a bigger star than what he was because he's again, he's working with people that are having lunches in the middle of Tuscany when they have a break during the day. And and life is, is okay when you're making films. [00:36:08] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. And they really, you know, it's a little bit the story of De Sica, you know, with Ladri di Biciclette The Bicycle Thieves, that he says, you know, they, you know, the American production got in and they wanted, you know, Selznick was involved and they wanted to, you know, him to sign a contract for seven films. And he said, no, I'm I'm not in for something like that. This is not the film I want to make. And in fact, you know, he refused. And that would have been a lot of money. [00:36:37] Mark Nicholls: That freedom is exactly why Ingrid Bergman goes to Italy. Because she wants to make films in this way. What interesting, i'm just thinking about when you're making this film. Nanni Moretti is making Caro Diario and Aprile okay, both of which are kind of like things will go where I want them to go, especially that freedom, which I think is really important, and that concept. And to an artist, as we saw with Ingrid Bergman in the 50s and later on with Marcello, when he comes back and whatever is absolutely gold. The other thing that I'm thinking of a lot in terms of trying to understand the local cultural appreciation of the film is the comparison with Hey, Hey It's Saturday, and you know that that that sort of variety style comic things, you know, and when they're watching the best of, Hey Hey. [00:37:25] Santo Cilauro: There's only one show better than Hey Hey It's Saturday, and that's the best of Hey Hey It's Saturday. [00:37:30] Mark Nicholls: And Michael Keaton sitting there, you know, genuinely like seems to be cracking up Gong 'em Red! You know, but the kind of I remember when Hey Hey It's Saturday ended and we talked about this some, you know, um, someone asked me to talk about it, and I thought that the the variety format, the things where anything could happen, that sense of live TV and all that stuff, which I think there's a sense of that to me, in in your film. [00:37:59] Santo Cilauro: Hey Hey It's Saturday to me again, the Italian part of that was, it was basically a bunch of people just saying, hey, it's just television. It's you know what I mean? It's it's not a high form of art. It's just television. It's a Saturday night at 6:30. You're about to go out and have a good time anyway. Who really? I mean, does it really matter whether we're lowbrow or anything? And and I guess it was the same with The Castle. It was like, really? I mean, it's this is not an art house film. In fact, in America, they tried to market it as an art house film, and it just didn't work that way. [00:38:32] Mark Nicholls: Social documents. [00:38:33] Santo Cilauro: Yeah. It's ridiculous. They didn't they didn't know how to market it. You know. [00:38:37] Santo Cilauro: Harvey Weinstein and Miramax took it and they just did. They loved the film, but they didn't know how to market it. It went really well at the Sundance Sundance, you know. And then there was a bidding war. And then they didn't know how to market it. They, they, they just didn't know where it sat. And I can sort of understand that in a way. It's a slightly confusing film because if you were American, you wouldn't understand it. In fact, we changed, we changed some of the lines for, for for the Americans. [00:39:05] Elisabetta Ferrari: Okay. [00:39:05] Santo Cilauro: A friend of ours, Harry Shearer, who's a great performer, he changed because obviously, you know, things like Rissoles or whatever that don't exist. And and the types of cars and things like that don't exist. So we changed those things and changed them quite well. [00:39:23] Mark Nicholls: To just change tack a little bit. There is a sense that this film is about migrant experience. You know, fairly stereotypical skip family, but but there's so much to me about that potential for, you know, second, third generation experience of migrant that is. [00:39:41] Santo Cilauro: If you had to remake the film, it'd be pretty interesting because you could you could choose any ethnicity, any class. Well, no, not any class, but it didn't have to be a white Australian blue collar family. [00:39:54] Mark Nicholls: Did it at the time? [00:39:56] Santo Cilauro: Uh, it's funny because it could have been anything at the time, but we're just saying, well, that's what the story is, so don't don't read anything into it. It just happens to be about a white family. And, you know, there's, you know, what is it with Wogs and cash and, you know, there's Farouk, the. [00:40:12] Mark Nicholls: Farouk, yeah. [00:40:13] Santo Cilauro: The there's a bit of there's a bit of that going on. And again, there's a bit of unashamed kind of like not xenophobic. It's not xenophobic, but it's this sort of like, uh, as a kid I used to watch a Kingswood Country or something, and they'd have these or even Paul Hogan and, you know, keep a dancin', Luigi the unbelievable. And I knew that it was stereotypes, but I felt privileged because I felt included. I felt, oh, okay, so I'm part of the fabric. So therefore someone can make fun of my, you know, the things that I do. Whereas you now have to be a lot more careful. And probably at the time someone could have pointed that out to me, going, you do realise you're just laughing at a cliché? And I would have thought, well, actually that's not the best thing. But it was interesting that my first instinct was that it was being inclusive. [00:40:57] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah, but I think that the film does reveal a society that is much more multicultural than, you know, an Italian society would be. Now I'm thinking how interesting it would have been to see, you know, the kind of setting that would have used for the Italian version, you know, the kind of house. What kind of neighbours? So that would be quite interesting. And also where they would set it. [00:41:20] Mark Nicholls: Yes. [00:41:22] Mark Nicholls: Where do you see it in your head now? [00:41:23] Elisabetta Ferrari: I don't know. [00:41:24] Santo Cilauro: I'll tell you where I set it in my head. It was at the I think it's called Punta Raisi, which is the airport in Palermo. [00:41:31] Elisabetta Ferrari: Oh, yes, yeah. [00:41:33] Santo Cilauro: Because it's the airport in Palermo is right next to houses, it's literally right next to houses. And so, and it's got nothing to do with the fact that I have Sicilian background, I thought that that would be the area to do it, because let's not forget that the whole thing about, uh The Castle was that when Dale talks about the place, it was supposed to be a hub. The street was supposed to be, uh, a big street. They were going to set up all these things, but it all fell through, you know what I mean? So to me, the whole thing about Italy and the false dawn of what Europe was going to do to Italy, you know, Palermo was going to be a hub for all of Europe. Everyone would travel through Palermo and and it never got up. [00:42:12] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. [00:42:12] Santo Cilauro: And so therefore there's that, that sort of illusion that something is going to big happen here. But it just you know what? It doesn't happen. And he wasn't going to have greyhounds. He was going to have, uh, racing pigeons. [00:42:26] Elisabetta Ferrari: Okay. [00:42:27] Santo Cilauro: I think that racing pigeons would have been, would have been also a better metaphors for flying free. [00:42:33] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah, exactly. [00:42:34] Mark Nicholls: But I think the kind of sense of everyone being able to look at this family and, and I mean, I'm really also interested in, in the fact that we're talking about a comedy. I think that's really key. I mean, film comedy in Australia is quite rare. You know, there's I mean, there's more, I think more and more. But the comedies are always films that do the best. They're a Weird Mob we haven't even mentioned yet, but is definitely part of this. [00:43:00] Santo Cilauro: It's a film that I idolised growing up, absolutely idolised. I think you're absolutely right to it's in the context of a comedy. Let's not forget it's a comedy. If it was just a completely humourless film, I think it would just would have been silly. It would have been just laughable, a laughable, well, laughable. People laugh at it, but I'm saying it's. [00:43:20] Mark Nicholls: At it rather than with it. [00:43:21] Santo Cilauro: Yes, but here's the here's the, the the the weird irony. And that is that the hardest work we had to do, editing the film, was getting rid of jokes. There were too many jokes. We just said, it has to have a heart. It has to have a story. And if that joke doesn't further the story, it's just got to go. And we, you know, we we learnt to murder so many darlings. There were really good jokes that went by the wayside because we would look at that and say, but yeah, that's a that's a bit of a sugar hit. That is a funny joke. But that ultimately damages Daryl's character. Daryl would not do that. He would not say that he would not do that. The kids would not do that. And we are undermining the film if we do that. [00:44:07] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. I mean, it'd be really easy to talk about this as an Italian film if it was just written by Santo Cilauro. But, you know, he has some others who kind of do stuff. [00:44:15] Santo Cilauro: It certainly wasn't it certainly wasn't. Well, that's that's interesting too, because there are so many Italian films that are collaborations, not necessarily with the with writing the actual script, but surely, you know, I know Tornatore and Morricone are clearly very close in terms of, uh, what they create for the screen. And they worked for months and if not years before they even shoot anything. Uh, so that whole world of collaboration now, we worked as, as a, as a genuine collaboration on this one here. Um, so it was written by myself, Rob Sitch, Tom Gleisner, and Jane Kennedy. We had been writing together for quite a few years, just on television, but we thought that the way to do it, um, and it was so important. Uh, we felt and it turned out being a blessing, that we actually did follow through with it. And that is that once we realised that it was going to be a story about our own families, we said, oh, you know, Jane, what about the fact that Ray does this whenever and what? And Rob, you know, the way Charlie compliments your mum and Santo your dad and that as a solicitor, all that kind of thing. Once we knew that there were going to be enough stories there, um, a couple of us, Rob Sitch and I just said, okay, Tom, Jane, you keep away from the script now. [00:45:24] Santo Cilauro: We'll become the custodian of this script now. We're not going to spend months on it. We're not going to spend weeks on it. But we will spend, you know, 10 to 14 days of really nutting out a spine, the dominoes. This happens, then that happens, then that happens and that happens. Let's not worry too much about jokes. We can write, you can write jokes right up until the day before shooting. There's never any problems about that. It's what happens next. So Rob and I laid siege to it. Worked out a spine, a very simple spine. Worked on certain characters. Uh, you can't help but put in jokes when the character starts suggesting those jokes to you, and you just put them down and you're just basically a mouthpiece for them. And then Tom and Jane, a couple of weeks later, just read our script. We probably would have done maybe only 2 or 3 drafts by then. And then that's so important that they had fresh eyes, because they would just look at it and go, oh my God, that's great. That's terrible, whatever it is. [00:46:18] Santo Cilauro: So those fresh eyes really, really are so instructive as, as important as, as literally writing down the story. So then we probably would have got back, started writing it again, and then gone through that process for about maybe 10 or 11 drafts. We usually do that many drafts. And as I said before, the more you write, the stronger the characters become, and the more prolific you get with the jokes. Because all of a sudden people say, who wrote, who wrote the the vibe line? Who said it's the vibe? And I honestly, I may have written it down on paper or whatever, but it was Dennis Denuto that that that wrote that line. The character wrote that line. So that's and that's where I credit my my love for Pirandello. The, the fact that characters come alive. Characters become more important than real people. They they become more real than real people. So that was the way in which we we wrote the film. And, um, in terms of editing, I think it was pretty simply edited. There was hardly anything that that we shot that didn't make the film. We just didn't have that luxury. So the editing process wasn't that difficult. It was the storyboard. [00:47:26] Mark Nicholls: There are two soundtracks. [00:47:28] Santo Cilauro: Yes. [00:47:28] Mark Nicholls: As I understand it. [00:47:29] Santo Cilauro: There's an American soundtrack. [00:47:30] Mark Nicholls: Which is orchestral. [00:47:32] Santo Cilauro: Which is magnificent. Yeah. So Jane Kennedy went over to the United States And because we didn't have a soundtrack, I think it was just commercial music. And a couple of we got the rights to, I think, a Paul Kelly song, which he agreed to, and a, um, a Kate Ceberano, uh, I think it was a Carpenter song at the end, wasn't it? [00:47:49] Mark Nicholls: Uh, yes. [00:47:50] Santo Cilauro: It was a Carpenter's song. [00:47:52] Mark Nicholls: We've only just begun, is it? [00:47:53] Santo Cilauro: We've only just begun. We've only just begun by Kate Ceberano singing a Carpenter's song. But when we went to the United States, they gave us a budget for a proper soundtrack. And Jane met a wonderful composer, Korean composer called Ed Choi. And he ended up doing the music for The Dish as well, which is a masterpiece, I reckon it's magnificent music. [00:48:13] Mark Nicholls: Did Jane Cast it? [00:48:14] Santo Cilauro: Yeah, she's a casting genius. In fact, the person that we had secured to to play the part of Daryl Kerrigan, he came in to talk to us about the part and Rob and I thought that he was great. And he is. He's no longer with us. He's he's a he was a wonderful actor. He was belittling the film just a little. He was a little bit patronising about the fact that it was such a small film, which we thought, fair enough, it is a small film. We just got into the office after he left, and our entire office, which is made up entirely and still is basically of very sensitive and very sensible females. They're not stupid like us. They just they basically came up and said, right. And we said, how good was he? And it was there was a bit of. Oh, yeah. Oh. What? No, no, that's he was good. What is he not right? And then there was a bit of shaking of the head going on going, well I don't know really? Is he, is that guy going to really, is he gonna? Because everything we did is very sort of like a family. We only work with people that we really want to work with. And in the end, Jane Kennedy came in at the end of the day and she said, look, you know what? Let me fly up to Sydney. I want to talk to Michael Caton. We said, Michael Caton, who was on The Sullivans? And he'd been going through a very bad trot anyway. So he met with Jane and basically said to Jane, this role was made for me. This will change my life. Jane came back and said, you know, I think he's the guy. And we literally had to tell the other guy, you know, we've changed our mind, which was very difficult for us. But thank God that happened. And it was Jane. Jane got on a plane that day, was going to wait for the next day, but, um, but Michael said, no, no, no, no, I'll, if you take the punt on me, I'll take this straight away. [00:50:00] Mark Nicholls: His character in The Sullivans, which was a huge cultural phenomenon in its day that was training for this role. I mean, his character was, you know, the uncle. His name was uncle Harry. He was a rough diamond. Heart of gold. Everything was always off the back of a truck. But, you know, it was okay. And he. The heart of gold thing is really. So it made complete sense to those of us of that generation who knew that character. Yes, definitely. [00:50:25] Santo Cilauro: And certainly with Bud Tingwell. Bud had just lost his wife and they were inseparable. She was a magnificent lady. We we love her, you know, to this day. And I remember we contacted his son to say we would love Bud to play a role with us, but we would never dare to ask him if he's in a bad place at the moment. And the son said, no, no, no. I think that this could be the best thing that can happen to him. So he was so happy to do it. And, um, and I think he brought a lot of the emotion that was that he brought that he had in his performance. A lot of that came because of what had just happened to him in the recent past. So, um, we were just very lucky with both those guys. They were both, you know, enormous pillars in the film. And, um, I wonder, I don't know enough about Italian cinema to know whether they're the kind of decisions that get made by Italian directors. I my gut tells me, yes. [00:51:20] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. [00:51:20] Santo Cilauro: My gut tells me that yeah, that that they would look at someone and say, you know what? Can we have a coffee together? Because I think that I know that you mightn't be right for this part, but you want to give it a go? [00:51:32] Mark Nicholls: As opposed to, you know, we've got to have a board meeting with seven guys in suits, and everyone's got to agree that Michael Caton is the right thing. I mean, how do you you don't get Caton through that process? [00:51:42] Santo Cilauro: No. Absolutely not. [00:51:43] Mark Nicholls: You're gonna get Sam Neill. [00:51:44] Santo Cilauro: Yeah. [00:51:44] Mark Nicholls: But which, you know, we all love Sam, but it wouldn't have worked. [00:51:48] Santo Cilauro: Yeah. [00:51:52] Elisabetta Ferrari: Well, um, I don't know, Mark. I don't know if we have been able to demonstrate that this is a really Australian film, but I, I have to admit that it's got, uh, maybe an Italian vibe. Can we? [00:52:05] Santo Cilauro: Ahh Yes. [00:52:06] Elisabetta Ferrari: Can we say that? [00:52:07] Santo Cilauro: In fact, you can only say that Italian vibe. Because how would you say the Italian vibe in Italian? [00:52:11] Elisabetta Ferrari: That's. [00:52:13] Mark Nicholls: How do we translate that? [00:52:14] Elisabetta Ferrari: No, exactly. [00:52:15] Elisabetta Ferrari: Un senso di italianità. But that does not translate well at all. And so maybe. Oh well, maybe it is an Australian film after all. Because you can't. Yeah. You can't even. [00:52:27] Santo Cilauro: Translate the vibe. [00:52:28] Elisabetta Ferrari: The vibe. [00:52:29] Santo Cilauro: Can you translate? Tell him he's dreaming? [00:52:32] Elisabetta Ferrari: Oh, sta sognando. But then again it doesn't, yeah. And it's the same as the serenity, you know. I wonder what the how's the serenity, you know. So I don't know. That would have been, you know, a hell of a job for a translator to try to find, you know, the exact Italian for for this. [00:52:57] Mark Nicholls: You know, there are so many kind of key words that we now use from, you know, 'the vibe' is one. That's going straight to the pool room. What's with Wogs and cash? [00:53:04] Santo Cilauro: What is it with Wogs and cash? [00:53:05] Mark Nicholls: You know, there are many of them. And, you know, watching again last night thinking we say these things all the time. [00:53:11] Elisabetta Ferrari: They have really entered the Australian vocabulary. [00:53:13] Mark Nicholls: Definitely. [00:53:14] Santo Cilauro: In Australia, if you say if someone says, "look at me", you're already you're already look at me, look at me. It's because of the characters, it's not because of the line. So therefore I think it's Daryl Kerrigan resonates. So how's the serenity and Dennis Denuto says "it's the vibe of the thing". It's it's because you go, I love that guy. And how he said that it doesn't exist as words. It exists as words from a character's mouth. [00:53:36] Elisabetta Ferrari: Yeah. No. That's right, that's right. In an Italian setting, there would have been the additional complication of, you know, where is it set and what is the regional accent and what is the actual dialect of that particular place. And that creates another dimension, I would say of the story, especially if it is looked, you know, from another region perspective. So it's it's. [00:54:03] Santo Cilauro: So in many ways you, you just you would just set it either in Milan or Bologna or somewhere just so that you're basically saying. [00:54:09] Elisabetta Ferrari: But then you are setting it in the north instead of the south. So any kind of decision that you make in the setting, I think in a way it influences how you are narrating that particular story. [00:54:20] Mark Nicholls: I'm getting an idea for another bonus podcast. I want to I want us to understand whether The Castle is a Melbourne film, as opposed to being a Sydney film? [00:54:28] Elisabetta Ferrari: Maybe? [00:54:29] Santo Cilauro: We went to the Aacta Awards this year where we were given some kind of lifetime achievement award, and and we had some forums in Queensland and they were big forums. It didn't feel like. [00:54:40] Mark Nicholls: Because it's full of people moving north. [00:54:42] Santo Cilauro: Exactly. [00:54:42] Mark Nicholls: From Melbourne. [00:54:43] Santo Cilauro: Exactly. Full of Mexicans. [00:54:46] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. No, but it's done well on Nine. [00:54:49] Santo Cilauro: It's done very well. [00:54:50] Mark Nicholls: So That implies a certain idea of Australian national across borders. [00:54:56] Santo Cilauro: There was early criticism from the papers like the Australian, and even there was a, there was a film reviewer called Jim Schembri. And now I'm quite happy to say that because he was very, very gracious afterwards. He said, I got it wrong. Um, Evan Williams from The Australian said, I got it wrong. Uh, David and uh, David, quite famously, David Stratton quite famously said, you know what? I got it wrong. To me, the most heartwarming comment I ever got about the castle was going to the Warrandyte Cemetery to visit my father in law's grave, and I went to take my little son. He was little at the time. We went for a walk and there was a grave there and it said, I'll never forget it. Barry big bazz Fromono, age 34. How's the serenity? [00:55:39] Elisabetta Ferrari: Oh, that was beautiful. [00:55:41] Santo Cilauro: We sued, we sued. [00:55:42] Mark Nicholls: Yeah. Yeah. Lawyer up! [00:55:46] Elisabetta Ferrari: But did you win? [00:55:48] Santo Cilauro: It was. I went all the way to the High Court. It was, it was the greatest. You can't ask for a bigger compliment. [00:55:54] Elisabetta Ferrari: No. Absolutely not. [00:55:56] Mark Nicholls: Well, perhaps on that note, we can bring our discussion to an end. [00:56:01] Santo Cilauro: Why not? [00:56:01] Elisabetta Ferrari: Well, thank you so much Santo for this conversation. [00:56:05] Santo Cilauro: I learned a lot about The Castle that I didn't actually know myself. [00:56:08] Elisabetta Ferrari: All right. Thank you. Yeah. That's good. [00:56:15] Elisabetta Ferrari: You have been listening to Choc-Tops and Cassata, an episode of The Secret Life of Language. Special thanks to our producer and editor, Alice Garner. The Secret Life of Language is recorded and mixed at the Horwood Recording Studio by Gavin Nebauer. It is a podcast from the School of Languages and Linguistics at the University of Melbourne. Choc-tops and Cassata would not be possible without the support of the Australasian Centre for Italian Studies. Be sure to keep up with every episode of The Secret Life of Language by following us on the Apple Podcast app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Secret Life of Language is licensed under Creative Commons.