I think of it from the standpoint, I'm always one Charlie, I wanna do what's right for the ecosystem, but I also wanna do what's right for the pocketbook of the farmers.

And I really think we need to get back to the point where food is being consumed as preventative medicine.

Mm-hmm.

And if we truly begin to understand how soil functions and how these plants develop these phytonutrient compounds, that's really going to put farmers in the driver's seat and that they will be rewarded for the good work they're doing.

That was Gay Brown, and you're listening to the Regenerative Journey.

Good day.

I'm your host, Charlie Arnt.

An eighth generational Australian regenerative farmer.

And in this podcast series, I'll be diving deep and exploring my guests unique perspectives on the world so you can apply their experience and knowledge to cultivate your own transition to a more regenerative way of life.

Welcome to The Regenerative Journey with your host, Charlie Arnet.

Good day.

Welcome back to The Regenerative Journey, and welcome to this episode with Gabe Brown.

I was, uh, very privileged to catch up with Gabe earlier this year.

I think it was February, March, um, the day before the Wilmot.

Um, field Day, the famous Wilmont Field Day up at Ibor on the Wilmont property.

Um, big shout out to Atlas Carbon and my grazing, who facilitated the chat with Gabe as he was the headliner.

The, um, uh, the main man there at the field day, uh, for the two days.

He spoke to the keynote on day one and then did some activities in the paddock on day two, but lucky to ca lucky to catch up with him, um, in the lush gardens of Sarah and David Schmoo.

They're in Armadale.

So big shout out to those guys.

Thank you for the facilitation.

Um, we had some, oh, you know, tech, not tech difficulties, some power cords to run and some wifi to find and all those sort of things, but we managed it.

Um, actually I think I might've even used Gabe's phone to record some of it on the video.

Um, anyway, it was a lovely chat.

Gabe is, um, globally renowned as a, um, a farmer, very practical farmer who is using regenerative practices.

Um, cover cropping, uh, some of the, some of the practices he uses on his farm, uh, in, um, in the United States.

And, um, his book, uh, dirt to Soil is an absolute, um, banger if you are looking to work out how you might be able to, um, utilize, uh, multispecies pasture cropping, um, in your system.

But he's also does an amazing job of grazing and just general.

Land management.

Um, very cool to catch up with Gabe.

With Gabe.

Um, he's very patient, very laid back kind of guy, a font of information and, uh, I trust you.

Enjoy this episode on the Regenerative Journey with Gabe Brown.

Gabe Brown, welcome to the Regenerative Journey.

Welcome to Highbury.

Go here in Armadale.

Thanks.

It's good to be with you.

It's great to see you meet you.

Finally.

I know you've had, um, you've had a bit on the last couple of weeks.

Give us a bit of a rundown on you've got into the country, how long ago?

I arrived Saturday morning.

Yep.

So arrive, yep.

About three days ago.

Yep.

Yep.

That's it.

Yep.

And, and, uh, drove from there.

Uh, and I, I can't even tell you the places I've been.

It's, uh, went up there to, uh, Alistair MLA's property.

Yeah.

And, uh, spent a couple days there, which was really good.

Awesome.

So you went to Yas, you went to Ca and Bloomfield.

Yep.

Went to Ca and then up to Bloomfield.

And now we're over here at Armon Dale.

And do, do people, do people call you Brownie?

No.

Is that a thing?

No.

Have they not called you Brownie since you've been in a.

Yeah, I've, because that's a, that's an Australian, I've really never been called Brownie.

Yep.

Would you mind if you were called Brownie?

I, I've been called about everything in the book, so nothing, nothing bothers me at all.

Yeah.

Most of 'em by my wife.

That's another story I did ask.

I did ask Gabe if he, if he was a swearer.

He didn't really answer the question.

He said he probably wouldn't swear.

But if you, if you feel, if you want to get a bit of emotional and a bit bit, uh, flagrant with your language, that's absolutely fine.

That's all right.

Gabe?

Um, uh, you are, so you are here for, um, so you've had a couple of days here.

Tomorrow you're out to, um, at Wilmont.

Field day.

Mm-hmm.

Annual field day, which is always a fantastic couple of days.

Yep.

And your keynote, that's what they tell me.

You deserve it.

'cause you've come, you've come the furthest, if there was an award for the most travel, it'd be you.

Um, and have you been to Wilmot yet?

No.

No, I have not.

You have got a lot to look forward to.

Yep.

Yep.

We'll be out there this afternoon, so I'm looking forward to it.

And you're doing a few other events while you're in the country?

Mm-hmm.

And how long are you here for?

I'm here until the sixth.

What is that?

So another week, another 10 days.

Yep.

And you've been to Australia a few times before, haven't you?

I have, uh, was here in 2012 and again in 2016.

So this is my third visit.

That's all.

Yeah.

So eight years ago.

And you, one of your mates is Coles, right?

That's right.

Yep.

Colin and I are good friends.

You gonna head down to his, his mark?

Well, we, I am, I'm gonna spend a few days there after the event at Wilmont.

That's good on, is he gonna relax there or is he gonna put, Carl gonna put you to work?

Uh, come on now be honest.

We all know Carl doesn't work.

Let's be honest about that.

I'm sure he is.

Probably, he's probably saved up a few daggy sheep for you to crutch or something.

Uh, he can, he can dream ain't can happen.

Um, Gabe, let's get back to we, this, this podcast is called The Regenerative Journey because it's, um, and I interview farmers, dentists, actresses, doctors, chefs, it doesn't matter.

Everyone is, is, is, I believe, on somewhat of a regenerative journey in their, in their different, in their respective industries.

Well, I like to think they are.

They are.

Mm-hmm.

Tell me, where did your, not necessarily your regenerative journey start, but where, what, where did little Gay Brown appear in the world?

You know, to tell us how long ago?

Yeah, so it doesn't matter way Back in 1960, so I was born and raised in Bismarck, North Dakota.

I grew up in town and took an interest in agriculture after I took a vocational agriculture course when I was in the ninth grade, and I was just enamored with all things ag and so not being from a farm, I thought my way into agriculture was to become a vocational educator.

And so I went to the university to become a teacher, but as luck would have it, married my college sweetheart who was, who was from a farm.

And she had, uh, two sisters, no brothers.

And, uh, her, after we got married, um, we were finishing up our university studies and her folks reached out and wanted to know if we wanted to come back and take over the farm.

And immediately I said, yes.

My wife, not so much, she said she married a city kid to get away from the farm.

But, uh, as, uh, it ended up, uh, moved there and, and, uh, farmed up until about seven years ago when we turned.

The farm over to our son.

So that, that's why you got time to come over to farm.

Yeah.

That's why I, uh, I needed something to do then.

So started understanding Ag, which is a regenerative consulting company, and, uh, have spent the last seven and a half years traveling more than 275 days each year all over the world.

Just, uh, just sharing my story and talking about regenerative agriculture.

You've done a great job of jumping from 1960 to the present day in about three minutes, Gabe?

Yep.

We're gonna have to go back there a bit.

Okay.

Tell me, um, given that you were a city boy, did that, and then you, you did your university and you, and then you, you took over the farm essentially.

Do you, your.

Your foundation or your, in your living in the city, do you think that was an advantage to you in, in, in any way as opposed to being born on the farm and then Yeah.

Intergenerational farming and, and I think it was a big benefit to me.

It was difficult in that I had to learn all the lessons the hard way, usually twice before it sunk in.

But it left my mind mar very open.

And because I was new to agriculture, I was avid learner, you know, everything in front of me.

I just wanted to learn more and more.

And I've always been pretty inquisitive and asking why.

And so, like for instance, I learned a farm from my father-in-law who was very conventional heavy tillage use of synthetics.

And I could never understand why we'd till, because we were in a, we're in a pretty semi uh, brittle environment.

We get about 10 to 12 inches of rainfall and then another four or five inches, uh, from the snow we get.

And so.

16, 17 inches a year at best.

And we'd till, and then it'd be so dry we'd be praying for rain.

And that never made sense.

So once we, I spent eight years working for my in-laws until, um.

We had the opportunity to buy part of the farm from them.

And so I, excuse me, I immediately went to no-till, sold all the tillage equipment and went no-till.

'cause it just made sense to me.

You burnt the bridges, you said?

Yeah, and I knew if I sold that tillage equipment, I'd never be tempted to go back.

And so I'm kinda one, I'm a risk taker and if it makes sense to me, I'm gonna do it.

Yeah.

And so started no tilling then?

Uh, first year it went great and I thought, this is easy.

1995 came along the day before I was gonna start harvesting 1200 acres of spring wheat lost our entire crop in a hailstorm.

So that was pretty devastating.

Set us back financially.

1996 came along, we lost a hundred percent.

Hail again, started to diversify the crop.

Rotation bank wasn't gonna.

Loan me any more operating money.

So my wife and I took some menial off-farm jobs to try and put food on the table.

1997 came along.

We dried out as a major drought in the area, so no crop income and things were really getting desperate.

But I was starting to notice some changes.

To the land wildlife were returning, we were getting insects, some birds coming back, and I thought, you know, there's something going on here.

1998, come along.

We lost 80% of our crop tail.

So four years, literally no crop income.

I tell people that was held to go through, but it was absolutely the best thing that could have happened to us.

Uh, even though we were $1.5 million in debt at the, at the end of 98, which was a lot of money back then, especially to a young family starting out with a mortgage and everything.

But the good news is that what was really happening in those four years, little did I know, you know, I was being shown how ecosystems function and I was starting to do things.

For instance, 1998, after that final hailstorm that came a little earlier in the season, I scraped enough money to buy some cover crop, which.

We didn't even call cover crops back then.

It was simply forage or fodder.

Uh, I seeded that and then I literally didn't have the money to put it up for hay, and so we just turned the cattle out on it during the winter and grazed it through the snow, and I'm going.

Cattle did fine, cost me less money.

This makes sense.

So then what happened?

I was just blessed.

A lot of, uh, people started taking an interest because I was the odd guy trying these odd things, and a lot of the right people came into my life at the right time and I learned from them.

And I'm always one where, uh, there's not a lot going on upstairs here, but I'm really good at stealing ideas from other people.

So I can go visit a farm or somebody visits my ranch and then they give me an idea and, oh, I'll try that.

That might work here.

And so it sent me on this 30 year journey of, uh, converting dirt to soil.

But that you, you're referencing there, the, the, the failures.

Well, you might have thought 'em failures at the time, but they were certainly.

Um, lessons.

No doubt you learned.

Mm-hmm.

And that's, that's life, isn't it really?

Yeah.

It's learning opportunities and it's what you make of those lessons Yeah.

That determine, uh, uh, your path in life.

As they say.

There's no growth stimulant like pain.

Yeah.

Um, tell me, and so, so even though you couldn't harvest for those three years, 'cause one of those years you didn't even get a crop in.

Mm-hmm.

You were, you were making an impact, weren't you?

You know, the crop was getting to nearly the point of harvest.

So there was activity, there's biology, there was organic matter.

You were making a lot of progress.

Yeah.

And I started to diversify the crop rotation because those early hailstorms taught me, boy, I don't want too many eggs in one basket, so to speak.

So let's diversify and have crops that mature at different times.

And I did that, uh, the second year there, 1996, I planted peas, which could be harvested early.

Also, I planted them because they're a legume, fixed some nitrogen.

And so I started to diversify the crop rotation and.

That plays right into the principle of diversity.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, I, unbeknownst to me then I was really beginning to apply what's become known as the six principles of soil health.

Let's go there.

Let's do it.

Okay.

I know this is like straight off the top, but, um.

They are critical.

And you, and what you call 'em, the six principles of regenerative agriculture.

Is that how you sort of Well, we, we all know there's four ecosystem processes.

Mm.

The energy cycle, sunshine, photosynthesis, the, the water cycle, which you know is you have to have aggregation in the soil to infiltrate water.

You have to have carbon in that soil to hold onto that water, make you resilient to drought.

The nutrient cycle, and by that I mean the natural nutrient cycle, which is plants feeding carbon compounds to microbiology.

And then the microbiology are consumed by other biology and release nutrients available to the plants Natural nutrient cycle.

And then the fourth ecosystem process, is that a biodiversity, you know.

Where in nature do you find a monoculture?

Only where mankind's actions have caused it to appear.

So we need that biodiversity.

So those four ecosystem processes take place anywhere in the world where there's land.

Okay.

What we need though, to drive those four ecosystem processes is to implement the six, what's become known as the six principles.

So those six principles, and briefly, they are number one, context.

Everyone's context is different.

You know, I'm from North Dakota, USA.

My context is certainly different than that here in New South Wales.

Okay?

You have to take your context into account, whether it be uh, uh, the precipitation, you get, the days of sunshine, frost free days, your financial context, your community and family context.

All those things are different from one.

Family to another.

So you gotta take them into account.

Second principle is least amount of disturbance possible.

And by that we mean tillage.

Tillage is a disturbance.

You destroy soil aggregation, uh, lower water infiltration, uh, decreased nutrient cycling by tillage.

But it's not only tillage, it's also things like too much synthetic fertilizer, too much herbicides, pesticides, fungicides.

Those are all disturbances that have a negative effect on the processes.

The, uh, third principle is that of armor on the soil.

In other words, covering the soil.

I always tell people, walk into a forest, walk into a native ecosystem.

How much bare soil do you see?

No.

If it's bare, it's only because of mankind's action.

Nature always tries to cover the soil, keep it protected from wind erosion, water erosion, evaporation, et cetera.

Fourth principle is that of diversity.

You need diversity, a diverse array of different plant species, different heights, leaf shapes and sizes, different root types, rooting depths, that diversity is key to driving soil health.

Fifth principle is living root in the soil as long as possible throughout the year.

Look at what we've done in agriculture today on Airable land.

We plant a crop, cash crop, then once we harvest that crop, that land sits idle.

Okay?

How are we pulling in sunshine if there's nothing growing there, how are we feeding biology?

How are we building soil aggregates?

You need that living root at all times that living plant in order to do that.

And then the final principle is that of animal and insect integration.

Land-based ecosystems simply do not function properly without animals and insects, despite what some people think.

We need animals and insects on the landscape.

So those six principles really drive the four ecosystem processes.

And I tell people it's not rocket science.

It's really pretty easy if you grasped grasp those six principles and four ecosystem processes.

So where do the people fit into that?

Where do the people fit in?

The people fit in in that.

They are caretakers of creation and they are the ones who dictate how these principles and how the processes are, uh, on their particular landscape.

And unfortunately, uh, I think King Charles said it best when he said modern agriculture is an arms race against nature.

Mm-hmm.

And unfortunately, that's how it is.

Mankind is trying to impose his or her will on nature instead of let, letting nature function properly.

Mm-hmm.

I think it was Aldo Leopold who said similar thing, didn't he?

He said that, um, it's just a, it's always a race between, um, the insect and the pest or the disease and then the big pharma creating, well, they kind of create problem in the first place.

Create this, the so-called solution for it.

Mm-hmm.

It's just a inevitable cycle, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tell me, um.

How did you as a city boy, just getting back, going back, winding back a few years, city boy, you know, marrying the daughter of, of your, you know, your, your in-laws there and, and how did they did, was there, uh, is there any tips?

'cause that happens a lot in Australia.

It happens a lot around the world.

You got any tips for managing expectations of in-laws?

You know, you weren't the farmer.

Yes.

You'd done some education.

You were probably pretty keen and, and, and a nice guy did.

Was there, was there, were there times when they were thinking, oh my God, what is Gabe doing?

I'm sure every day.

I'm sure every day they had a lot of patients.

Um, they did not understand at all and, and realized I was smart enough.

To not be too forceful to them.

Uh, they turned over the grazing land to me, so I was able to start implementing at that time we called it rotational grazing.

Now we call it adaptive grazing.

I started to implement some of those things and they let me go because they had no interest anymore in livestock.

So I started that way, but I didn't try to impose no-till on my father-in-law that I let him, uh, come to the point of retirement.

Then I immediately went no-till, you know?

So it was kind of a give and take and what could he do because he had retired So.

He says, okay.

And he, he didn't care for it to start.

But, but after a period of years and seeing us go through those four years of, of disasters, um, he really began to, I think, understand what I was doing.

And when he saw the land become productive, much to a much greater capacity than he had ever seen it, then he kind of realized, hey, maybe the city kid does know something.

It takes a big man to do that, doesn't it like to, 'cause I know in, in certainly not so much my family, well maybe my family, but only a little bit, but certainly a lot of Australian families changing practice from say, I'll just put it simply from conventional to more regenerative things.

Mm-hmm.

You know, the younger generation comes through, they take over the farm, they've got, you know, wife from the city and new ideas and all sorts of things.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and, and the one thing that really strikes me is that often.

The challenge for the son, the daughter coming back to the farm with these new practices is, is, is yes.

The, the parent parents usually the father, kind of challenging those things.

Mm-hmm.

But then grappling with the idea that maybe bringing those new practices into the farm makes dad wrong, has made dad wrong.

Mm-hmm.

You know, which is, you know, I'm sure that's a dynamic that takes place, um mm-hmm.

On in many farms and it's not so much about what happened before was wrong.

Yep.

It was just different.

Right.

Well, and I work with this a lot because with understanding ag, we all, well over 2000 clients spread over a large geographical area.

Family dynamics play in a lot.

And what I tell them is.

I, you know, I'm often brought in to talk to both generations and I tell the younger generation they have to have patience because the, the parents have been doing the best they can with the understanding they have and realize farmers, uh, cannot implement what they do not understand.

So these regenerative practices are not being taught, they're not being taught in our school system, in the university.

They're not being taught, uh, by extension, by the agronomy centers, et cetera.

So you have to have patience and realize that they did the best they could with the knowledge they had.

And you're not trying to one up them, you're simply trying to carry on in a profitable manner and in a way that's good for the ecosystem.

And tell me why is, is there, is there open resistance to the teaching of this in universities and schools or it's just they couldn't be bothered?

It's, it's change and any change is mm-hmm.

Hard for education institutions to, to swallow.

Well understand that, and I'm not so familiar over here in Australia how it is, but in the states, universities to a large degree are funded through grants to do research Well, who's gonna give 'em the research to, to study and teach regenerative.

Okay.

Certainly not the chemical industry, the fertilizer industry, the equipment manufacturers, the grain growing associations themselves, because they get funded based on yield.

Okay.

So the whole system has evolved to the point it's not conducive to promoting these regenerative practices.

Yeah, there's not money in it for those who are correct and that, so yes, exactly the same over here.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I went to university just on the other side of town here for four years doing a rural science degree and at no time, it was four solid years of study science and at no time did, did they put together the units of soil biology, chemistry, or physics into one overall thing.

Now that's not quite what we are talking about in terms of resistance in U universities and you know, 'cause change.

Change is very challenging, isn't it?

Yeah.

Challenges people's jobs and their paradigms.

Tell me, Gabe, what paradigms of yours have been recently broken or bent?

Is there anything that stands out?

Well, one that we're learning a great deal about and we're involved with, uh, heavily.

Is that the nutrient density?

And when I talk nutrient density, I'm not talking about protein or fats.

I'm talking about these phytochemical compounds that really drive the gut microbiomes of animals that are consuming the plants and the human gut microbiome.

And what we're really finding is.

These phytochemical compounds come about because of the diversity of both the species of plants, animals, and insects above ground, which drive the diversity of the microorganisms below ground.

And it's those microorganisms then that that feed the plant and cause these plants to be able to have the wide array of these phytonutrient compounds.

And I find that just tremendously fascinating.

And I think of it from the standpoint, I'm always one Charlie, I wanna do what's right for the ecosystem, but I also wanna do what's right for the pocketbook of the farmers.

And I really think we need to get back to the point where food is being consumed as preventative medicine.

Mm-hmm.

And if we truly begin to understand how.

Soil functions and how these plants develop these phytonutrient compounds, that's really going to put farmers in the driver's seat and that they will be rewarded for the good work they're doing.

I think what's fascinating, one of the things that you are doing, Gabe, is that you've got 5,000 acres there.

Six, yeah.

6,000 acres.

And so that's, you know, in anyone's language, especially in Eastern Australia is, you know, reasonable holding and a lot of activity.

You are also, you've also incorporated.

Um, a paddock to plate, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, nourished by nature.

Yep.

Range of products.

Mm-hmm.

And that's fascinating 'cause I don't know many people who are doing that in Australia and doing it well with that much land.

And also, so you're doing broad acre cropping and grazing, but you've also narrowed it right down to the consumer as well.

How, how do you, did you start that?

Did you get help?

Did you get people in, because that's a real challenge for people is like, I've already got so much to do and now I'm thinking about.

You know, butchering and selling and going to, going to, going to bloody farmer's markets, you know?

Yeah.

And that evolved over time.

I remember in 1999, I took a load of oats grain to the grain terminal and offered me 99 cents a bushel.

And I begged for that extra penny.

'cause I didn't wanna sell something for less than a dollar a bushel.

And they refused.

And I remember coming home and talking to my wife and I said, I'm tired of this.

I'm tired of, you know, they're, they're selling products and I just have to accept and pay what they want from an input standpoint.

And then when it comes for time for me to sell, I can't demand it.

They're just offering, this is what it is, take it or leave it.

And so I really realized I needed.

To be, become a price maker instead of a price taker.

And that started me on the path early on.

I started growing seed, started selling a lot of seed, whether it be grains or cover crop seed.

I started to, I was, uh, selling, um, breeding stocks.

So a little value added there.

Then that evolved into, we started selling some grass finished beef, but I give up the credit, real credit for the marketing and nourish by nature to.

Uh, my son, Paul, who I challenged him, I always knew he was gonna come back to the farm.

He didn't want to go to the university, but I made him to get off the farm.

He come back and he said, okay, dad, you preach diversity, but all we got is cattle and crops.

He said, I wanna diversify the livestock.

I want chickens and sheep and maybe pigs.

What could I say?

I said, you go son.

And once he started doing that, he immediately started direct marketing those products.

So it was an evolution.

And now he and his wife, uh, uh, that is, takes the vast majority of their time.

They, uh.

Market, everything they grow and raised is marketed to consumers.

Do you get a bit of that every now and again?

Does he like leave some in the fridge for you?

Oh, I just take it, you just take it.

I just take it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

You, I call it interest.

That's only fair.

You are dead.

Um, tell, I wanna go back to experimenting, 'cause I know that's a large part of your, kind of your character and mm-hmm.

And the development of your farming practices, you know, tell, tell me about the importance of experimenting and, and you mentioned, I think you mentioned curiosity there before.

And how, how important mm-hmm.

Experimentation, curiosity might be for a developing farmer or a, or a proactive farmer.

So I'll give some examples.

So early on I started to grow cover crops, but rather than just grow and I was just growing them as fodder crops for feed, rather than just grow one species, I was putting three together.

And then when I heard Dr.

Adamir Caligari from, from Brazil.

Argentina, excuse me, speak.

And he was talking about, no, they're meant to be seeded in multi-species combinations.

So immediately I come home and well, that makes sense, nature out in my native pastures, there's a hundred different species growing.

Why am I not doing that?

So I started to mix species and grow these diverse array of cover crops and the soil health just advanced tremendously.

So.

I'm one where I'll try things like I'll try a new quote, new variety of seed, uh, new species that maybe people think aren't adapted to my environment.

I'll try it and I'll give it a couple strikes, you know, but if it doesn't work after a couple years, then we just move on to the next.

But you always have to try things, you know, otherwise how do you know, how do you know what works, what doesn't?

Uh, give you another example.

So winter barley, winter barley's grown in the southern US because they say it won't over winter up north, you know, it'll winter kill.

Well, I got thinking, you know, that doesn't make sense to me because we have perennial plants.

So I bought some winter barley seed from down south, brought it up, seeded it first year a little bit.

Survive very little, but I harvested it second year.

Oh, quite a bit more.

Third year, hey, I had it.

Now I got a, a barley variety.

That'll over winter.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

They told me I couldn't do it.

Well, that's a challenge to me.

I'll try it.

So it's about, it's a safe to file kind of attitude.

Yeah.

You know, do a little bit.

Yeah.

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Um, tell me, is there anything in your experiments or even when you've got beyond the experiments and you're doing broad acre sort of versions of your experiments, has there been a time or a scenario where you just could not com you could not explain it, or science couldn't even explain what the outcome was?

So I would say the best illustration of that is once soil health, the health of our soil reached a point things.

The function of that soil increased exponentially.

And I'll give you an example of that.

So we just went through three years.

20 20, 20 21, 20 22, that were the three driest years in recorded history in Bismarck, North Dakota.

Okay?

Very, very dry.

We're talking less than 125 mils of precipitation total for each year.

So very dry conditions, okay?

Mm-hmm.

My son, who is running the ranch then seeded a cash crop.

So did the neighbors on the arable land.

He harvested a crop every year.

Now, was it a bumper crop?

No, but it was a crop.

Was it profitable?

Yes.

Where the neighbors didn't because it just dried up wilted.

Well, it showed me that once soil health.

Reaches such to state and function, and you get the mycorrhizal fungi and the biology working in a healthy water cycle, you can become very, very resilient.

Another case in point, one of our consultants, Fernando Fome, lives in probably the hottest environment in Mexico.

His daytime temperatures will be 115 to 120 degrees Fahrenheit.

Okay?

Very, very hot conditions, very little moisture.

He went through two years on less than 12 millimeters of precipitation total for two years.

The third year here, he got two, uh, little over two inches of precipitation.

Okay, now I gotta convert that to millimeters.

It'd be like, what?

Two inches is 50 mil?

50 mil.

50 mil, yeah.

So he had, he had a, a little more than that, so call it 60 mil.

And he's literally has grass taller than himself.

And it goes to show once you build the system, you can have these swings and temperature in that, but you're still gonna produce, and I think back to what landscapes around the world must have look like.

And yesterday we flew in a plane over here to Armadale and I'm looking down and to me it looks like it's really start deserting the system.

You know, we should see, see green growing plants, even though you're in a drier time of the year.

But we don't, and I'm thinking, what did it look like 500 years ago, a thousand years ago?

I'll guarantee it was green and growing.

Totally okay, we've deserted and are deserting this planet.

So those things are things that it really, once you become an observer, you see more and more that, hey.

It doesn't have to be like this.

And once we focus on the principles and processes, we can rapidly regenerate this landscape.

Is there been an occasion where you've done salt, do you do salt testing?

Is that sort of stuff Yeah, I do it more to explain to people where we're at.

I don't use any inputs, so No.

You know, besides seed.

So, but I'm just curious, has there been times where you've done a soil test and you've, you've got the theoretical sort of, you know, um, a profile of, of minerals and, and, and elements and so on.

And then done your business for a few years and then done a soil test.

And nothing can quite explain.

Hang on.

Our phosphorus levels have gone up.

Yeah.

So many parts per million.

We haven't put more phosphorus in the system or calcium mm-hmm.

Or those things.

Is that, is that something you've, you've, and, and we see that all the time with our clients.

We do baseline work and we do one test, uh, when we bring on a new client that's called a total nutrient digestion test, TND.

And what that does is that on not only quantifies the inorganic fraction in nutrients, in other words, what's water soluble and available to the plant the day the test was taken, but it also gives you this whole pool of organic nutrients that are not available to the plant, and it's those organic nutrients that become available via biology.

So.

Most farmers, 99% of them really have no idea of that organic pool that's there.

And as they go down this re their regenerative journey and start proliferating biology and getting the natural nutrient cycle to work, they're gaining access to that vast pool.

And then we have to realize most of what a plant needs for growth is found in the atmosphere.

You know, above every surface acre of Earth, there's approximately 32,000 tons of atmospheric nitrogen.

I can't figure out why any farmer would write a check for nitrogen.

It's free.

All they need to do is have the plants and the biology, because there's bacteria such as a zotto backer that will capture that atmospheric nitrogen and convert it into usable forms.

It's available.

We just have to understand that it's, uh, you, you have no doubt familiar with Nicole Masters.

Were Oh yeah, she's, um, she was in, we last couple weeks have been crazy Oh.

In Queensland a couple weeks ago with her doing some series of, um, conferences.

And I remember something that really she didn't say at this time, but it struck me.

I interviewed her a number of years ago that the most, oh, dare I say, one of the most important.

Characteristics of soil is air.

Mm-hmm.

The air pockets.

Yep.

Because if you've got an air pocket, you can put water in there.

Mm-hmm.

You know, if it's air in there, you've got nitrogen To your point about all we gotta do is, is get some air in there.

Can you grab the mics?

You certainly can.

This one.

I think that's his actually still air that.

That's all right.

Little filmmaking interruption here.

That's okay.

My apologies.

That's, that's a pleasure.

All good.

You've got that one tucked up under there.

Amazing.

I love listening to you talk, James.

He's interesting.

He a good guy.

You're off and out and about.

Yes.

We've been filming just for those listening.

We've been filming this for with the groundswell movie, so we've been No, do not touch that joke.

Okay.

And there went the podcast.

Hey buddy.

No, that's all good.

Okay.

Thank you buddy.

Take care.

Interrupt.

No, that's fine.

We'll see you.

Um, are you heading out there this afternoon?

Um, yes.

Yeah, we're gonna come out there this afternoon.

I'll see you this afternoon then.

Okay.

Sounds fun.

Hey, lovely to meet you.

And, um, I'm very excited about.

This Doco coming out.

Oh yeah.

Groundswell.

Wait till they do a great job.

That's great.

And the kids stuff too.

Mm-hmm.

That's awesome.

Thank you.

I wanna make sure my kids watch it.

Yeah.

When it comes out prime, it'll be good for adults and for kids as well.

Yeah, totally.

Make people laugh.

It make people cry and we'll give people, yeah.

Hope.

Yep.

About what we can do.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Well, I'm looking forward to that.

Hey guys, we'll see you this afternoon, eh, see you soon.

Thanks to all your listeners for all that everyone is doing around the world to Yeah, totally.

Well, we've got a good bunch, a good bunch of listeners, and, um, they love this sort of stuff, so No, no, no.

Well, it's about diversity, isn't it, Kate?

That's right.

Hey, diversity of ideas and people in involved, so that's awesome.

The more this sort of stuff we can pump out there.

Yeah.

Diversity of ages the better.

Yeah, totally.

Absolutely.

Well, that's critical.

You know, you're filming right now and we're interrupting the podcast.

We need, we need a bit more orange in this the thing, whatever.

We're lacking a bit orange, so you, you spice it up.

Give a, give a funny look right here to the camera.

There is, yeah.

Okay.

Good work.

Hey guys.

Um, enjoy your, your afternoon.

I'll see here.

Bye.

Thank you.

Thanks Charlie.

Thank you.

Yeah, bye.

Bye Y'all.

Um, tell me, isn't that great when kids get involved?

It is.

It is.

They're the future.

Tell me about, and they're why we do what we.

Tell me, um, what's your view on, well, actually I've got two things.

I'll start with the kids one, and then I wanna go to adults.

But, um, where, where are things up to in the states do you feel, in terms of.

Um, children's connection or reconnection with nature?

Is there not enough of it going on?

Is it, is it, you know, are there programs over there where kids are able to get onto, out of schools, onto farms and get their hands dirty and climb the tree and fall out and eat the sheep shit and just really get involved?

It's increasing and we're seeing a lot more, um, in our school systems of maybe having gardens and small farms associated with schools.

Uh, I'm not gonna say it's large scale, but it is happening and it is increasing and that's a good thing.

Do you have kids on your farm?

Did you do tours and things?

Uh, we do for over 25 years.

We had an internship program on our farm.

We'd bring in interns for six months period over, over the summer to work on the farm and learn.

Unfortunately, when I, uh.

It's one of the sacrifices we had to, uh, we had when I started understanding ag is that, uh, having interns, you need to be there and educate and teach them.

And, and my son, uh, obviously with all he's got going on, they're a bit limited.

So they had to stop the internship program, but we did that for years and it was very enjoyable.

In fact, that's how my son met his wife is she was, came and interned on the farm for a couple years.

That old chestnut.

Yeah.

I did not realize it was, was that the motivation?

Yeah.

I didn't realize that, but of course.

But it must have been, did he say, Hey dad, we should get some into here.

Well, I always wondered why he wanted pictures.

Oh, just to make sure the recruitment process was thorough.

Yeah.

Needed to make sure when the days before swiping lift and Right.

And all that sort of.

Okay.

But, um, tell me now to, to adults in around your part of the world, what did, um, when you were sort of experimenting and neighbors would drive past, and I mean, I think I remember you saying that the.

Who was the fellow who was either the, was he working for the council or the county and he drive past?

Was he slashing the roads or something?

What was the, was that the guy, um, someone was, was noticing, he said, Hey, your farm's better than the ridge.

Yeah.

Yep.

And, and that's true.

He did.

He, you know, people take notice in saying that with my neighbors, you know, uh, it's always hard for a neighbor to admit that.

That another neighbor of theirs is maybe doing a little better than them.

So, but that's fine.

I just don't let it bother me.

I'm gonna do my own thing, you know?

And besides, uh, uh, if you watch the documentaries kiss the ground, common ground, I feature my neighbors quite prominently in those.

Yeah.

And I guess, you know, it's about not, it's not, it's not about making them wrong, isn't it?

It's just about, it's just different.

It's just shine.

Yeah.

And just telling the story.

And is, do you think it's sort of like, is it contagious up there?

Are they going, maybe not your immediate neighbors, but maybe surroundings, they've heard about this guy and they drive past and go, shit, that's something's different going on there.

Do, is there some sort of a.

A con contagion happening up there in, in that regenerative space?

Well, and I always often get asked this, uh, you know, if this is so good, uh, what are, are your neighbors doing it?

And I said, well, realize when I started no tilling in 1994, I believe I was the first a hundred percent no tiller in our area, our county now 80% of the county snow till.

So it's just, it's totally changed.

And that's the norm.

Mm-hmm.

Now are cover crops and direct marketing and selling the norm?

No, but there is definitely an increased fraction that are doing.

How did you get through the whole COVID thing?

Did you have to, did you continue?

I mean, that's a whole nother podcast series.

Probably, well, I'll just say this, uh, with COD, realize, our business is consulting on farms and ranches.

And of course when it first broke, everything shut down.

And I tell the story that I was home for 24 days in a row and it had been over five years.

Previously before I'd spent that long a time at home.

So after about 10 days, my wife was saying, you gotta go somewhere, you gotta get outta here, do something.

So we just worked in central us.

We stayed off the coast because they were closed down, but it didn't slow down our business at all.

You know, uh, consulting the farms, farmers and ranchers, they wanted to work with us.

So it was just business as usual.

And what about the, um, the paddock to plate stuff?

Your, the farmers markets closed that would've had a big hit?

It, it actually increased sales.

Two to 300%.

Yeah, because we were selling shipping.

To their doors.

Yeah.

And they could get the products.

And that really spurred a movement in the United States to know where your food comes from.

And those who are direct marketing, the majority will tell you that sales just boomed during those times.

Uh, backed off slightly once COVID was over, but is increasing again.

Tell me, um, just wanna jump back to the topic of regenerative agriculture.

You know, it's quite the, the topical, you know, I mean, that's ob you know, you are here because you are, you are spraying, spraying the good, the good word across Australia, and we've got the documentary and so on.

And you are kindly giving us time here for, for our podcast.

Tell me about the word regenerative.

Like, has it, has it changed over time?

What, what's your definition?

Mm-hmm.

Because I know a lot of, you know, there's Interesting.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And, and a lot of people say, well, there's no different.

Distinct definition for regenerative agriculture.

But the one that we've landed on, that we came up with, that we use all the time is farming and ranching and synchrony with nature to repair, rebuild, revitalize, and restore ecosystem function, beginning with all life within the soil and moving to all life above the soil.

And we think that's all encompassing.

It takes into account, uh, all parts of the ecosystem.

And, and uh, I find it's pretty simple.

Most people can understand it.

And I think that it's interesting that, um, you know, there's not enough of us, I don't think is my view for us to be fighting about the definition.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, and one of the, I really have been trying to push.

The mantra, common ground for common good.

I really believe that as a society, humans can agree on 85 plus percent of the issues we all want clean air, clean water, nutrient dense food, right?

So why don't we come together and focusing on working on those things?

We agree on that other 10, 15% will sort itself out.

Okay.

And, uh, we've always had the belief we will work with anyone, anywhere, anytime, as long as it's for the common good.

And I think if you approach it that way, you really find that, that people have a lot more in common than they do differences.

Start with Yes.

Yep.

Start those conversations.

That's right.

Talking about that sort of thing.

Gabe, tell me about Maha.

What's, what's your, what's your view, what's your thoughts?

Yeah.

Were you involved, were you behind it?

Were you part of the, uh, uh, make America healthy again?

Yeah, we, yeah, and actually we were, um, our team is, uh, in constant conversation with RFK and his team and, uh, even when he was running for president before he dropped out and, and then, uh, became a part of President Trump's cabinet.

We have been actively involved in that movement.

And I look at it, I get asked, you know, so realize 10 days ago I was in Canada and they were all giving me grief because of the threat of tariffs.

Yeah.

And then I, I drove home from Canada, hopped on a plane to.

The UK and spent a week there and they were really giving me grief about the president, you know?

And then I come over here and everybody's wondering, okay, what's going on there?

And I tell people, calm down, it's gonna be okay.

That's just Trump's way of stirring the pot a bit.

In saying that, I tell everybody, I really believe this is a good thing because what RFK wants is to focus on health.

And I don't care where I travel all over the world.

The food is crap.

Yeah, it, it is just terrible.

Some is a bit cleaner, maybe not the chemicals or that, but it's not nutrient dense.

And I firmly believe that 95 plus percent of people in this world have not tasted nutrient dense food.

They just do not, uh, know what it's like to put nutrient dense food in their bodies.

And because there's so little being produced, and I really think this movement is an opportunity.

For the regenerative movement and we can really help propel regenerative agriculture in the movement towards nutrient dense food.

How do you see that happening?

Like what's, what, what are the steps involved mm-hmm.

To kind of like, you know, with, to push back or to infiltrate or to change, I guess.

Yep.

What, what, what, what are That's a big job.

Yep.

I mean, I'm totally behind it.

I think it's the most, the best thing that's happened.

So I think we need to address all areas of the supply chain.

We, you know.

For a number of years, there's those of us in this movement who have been working at the ground level, boots on the ground, educating farmers, ranchers, landholders, et cetera.

But we're missing out on consumers and then we're missing out on the whole supply chain of those who, who take our raw commodities and offer them to the consumer.

So one of the projects I'm involved with, we started another other company called Reified Be, and Reified is a verification certification company whose whole mission is to baseline what farmers are doing on their property and get them rewarded for that good work, those who are going down the regenerative path.

So we have a, a, the most thorough protocol in the, the.

In the verification business, 85 different data points that are taken everywhere from soils, tests to biodiversity of plants, animals, insects, to the eco.

And it's all based on the four ecosystem processes.

How well are you moving down this path?

And then what we do is, the difference with this verification is, A, it's annual.

B, it's scientific, it's it's being done, uh, annually.

Assessment.

And then C, you have to improve.

You can't just, it's not just checking boxes and say, yes, I'm regenerative.

Here's a, here's a label.

No, you have to keep moving up.

And you know, even on ranches that, and farms that are, have been doing this a long time, you can still improve.

You know, I tell people our ranch still degraded.

We got a long way to go.

Okay, so this demands improvement.

Then what it does it.

The brands who buy those commodities, it gives them the certainty that they're purchasing regeneratively, grown and raised products.

It gives them the resiliency because the farmers are more resilient.

So the brands are gonna have this more consistent supply of high quality product.

And then for the consumer, it's gonna give them the confidence that, yes, I'm purchasing something that's healthy and I'm purchasing something that's doing right by the environment and by the animals, et cetera.

So how's that gonna work, Gabe?

In terms of will a.

Uh, I was talking to, um, uh, Murray Richardson yesterday.

You might meet him tomorrow actually.

Lovely guy.

And I've worked with him with Highland Beef and they, they're sourcing, um, grassed beef here in Australia, and they put it out to their, sort of their client landholders, and they, they, they.

Um, grow them out to particular weights mm-hmm.

Process 'em here and, and actually send 'em to the states.

Mm-hmm.

Now, the, the, the, the challenge, um, is, is consistency, you know?

Mm-hmm.

So, so someone might be buying, whether it's Murray's or, or you know, anyone with the, with the ified, um, stamp.

Mm-hmm.

Like a processor who might go, okay, this landholder is certified under the ified mm-hmm.

Um, system.

Um, we would love to have your meat, you know, broken down.

We'll buy your meat, break it down and put it into packs and send it out to homes or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

Is the, how, how is the consistency in terms of consistency of supply?

That's, mm-hmm.

That's, is that, that's a pretty big challenge, isn't it?

Because, you know, well, they want, because they can go, I mean, I'm not saying that they would, but they can go to a feed lot and go, I'm just gonna get a cookie cutter item every bloody day of the week.

They, yeah, they can.

And what do they get for that?

They get no gu, no guarantee.

You know that they're doing the right thing.

So you might look at that as a challenge.

I look at it as an opportunity.

It's an opportunity for every farmer out there to validate the good work they're doing.

And then the farmer needs to be salesman themselves.

You know, farmers, uh, are historically very good at producing something, but they're terrible marketers by and large, right?

They just don't care to get into that.

Well, they need to become good marketers.

That's one thing about, you know, my story and I told the story about the oats.

I, that was a challenge to me to become a good marketer.

And when you're a million, 500,000 in debt, you know, at a young age, you better learn to become a good marketer, right?

Because you gotta get out of that hole.

So I look at it as an opportunity, and what we're finding is.

You look at brands out there, okay?

You're very, very large companies, they just source mass balance, okay?

They, they don't have that identity preservation of the commodity, whether it's canola or wheat, barley or beef or whatever, okay?

But these mid-size brands, they can distinguish themselves because they have the ability to have that one-on-one relationship with the farmer, and then they can source those products, have it verified, and use that as a selling point.

And right now the demand for regenerative products is just skyrocketing.

And you take our own ranch, we sell our products for higher than organic prices, okay?

Now the dirty little secret is we're producing them for.

Lower than any commodity farm or ranch can do it.

So we're capturing this huge premium.

Why?

Because we can't, I'm a capitalist and I, I'm not embarrassed to say that.

Now people might say, oh, but your food isn't affordable by all.

Yeah.

Go price out your cereal wants, what are you really paying?

You can eat our, our, our pastured eggs and our pastured pork bacon cheaper than you can eat that bowl of cereal.

Well, that's the thing, you know, and I, and I, I don't try and have these conversations with people 'cause it's really pointless.

But you know, when people say.

Organic produce, as you say, is too expensive.

It's like, well, okay, let's just park that.

Yeah.

Let's look on the rest of the shopping trolley.

What else is in there?

Yeah.

Because that's what you pay.

That's, that's that you, you, you built at the end of the day or in, in the supermarket is also includes not just your fresh produce, which you could swap out for organic.

It is all that produce.

But I would, I would take it a step further than that, Charlie, what, what are your healthcare costs?

Totally.

Okay.

Totally.

And, and if you're per buying nutrient-dense food, your healthcare costs will significantly decrease.

Totally.

And you'll be much healthier.

Yep.

And, and so what's that worth?

Mm.

You know, you look, I don't know how it is in Australia, but in the States, man, the average person's probably on four or five different prescriptions.

You know, it's ridiculous.

Well, I was listening to RFK there this morning and he was saying, I mean, as we, we kind of know this is doing a lot, you know.

The states has the, um, high, you know, the sort of the, the, the, the most, uh, unhealthy people in the world, essentially with, you know, all the different diseases and mm-hmm.

Ments mm-hmm.

That spends the most on, on health healthcare.

That's right.

It's like that, that for me Yep.

Is clearly not working.

Yep.

Yeah.

Uh, I'll never forget once, so I was doing a banquet speech for a civic group and doctors', lawyers, accounts, et cetera, et cetera.

And I was talking about this nutrient-dense food.

And a doctor stood up and he says, but Gabe, you gotta remember, I make my living writing prescriptions.

Wow.

And me with my big mouth, I fired back.

But did you not also take an oath?

Oh, he got mad at me.

Oh.

He got so mad at me that I'd call him out on that.

Yeah.

But it's the truth, you know, they, unfortunately, too many, they just look at it as, you know, it's their paycheck and the more prescriptions they can sell, the better.

And I, where does that all start?

I guess it's a university or they do six years of, of medicine and they don't, well, don't do anything on nutrition.

Case in point, my son-in-law is a dentist, and I asked him, okay, in your, your six years of medical school, how much time was spent?

On health and nutrient dense food.

And he just laughed and he said minutes.

You know, it wasn't yet what a dentist, what affects oral health?

Everything you put in your mouth, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and the jaw western, a price work with the jaw, jaw, um, development and so on.

It's fascinating.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So back, just staying on that one a little bit.

Big, big farmer and well, big ag really?

And, and what's the, the Maha, how are they gonna tackle that behemoth, do you think?

You know, because it, it's got the consumers like, we're gonna make you healthy, but we've gotta, we've gotta get people growing the food that people can eat to become healthy.

That, that's right.

And, and that's why I look at it as a, as an opportunity and remember, okay, what dictates what politicians do, you know?

It is, it is the lobbyist.

There.

Okay.

But what's one thing that trumps the lobbyist?

Because all politicians want this more than anything else.

That's to be reelected.

So they pro we educate the consumer.

Yeah.

Consumers demand it.

And I'm sorry, I really don't care if the pharmaceutical companies stay in business or not.

Oh, no.

You know, that's, that's, well that the, the, the, the, the larger they are and the, and the stronger and healthier they are, the sicker the people of America.

Or pick any country, be sure, sure.

That's the, that's the mm-hmm.

Fly in the ointment.

Yep.

Um, I'm just gonna put a little tick next to those little questions there, Gabe.

Tell me, um, Christine Jones.

Yeah.

Wonderful friend.

Yep.

Yeah, she great.

She is, I learned a lot from her mentor of mine.

She, um, I noticed she's, she wrote a little something nice.

She's one of the few people that's really nice about Gay.

Yeah, she is wonderful in the front of your book.

Yeah.

Dirt to Soil.

Yeah.

Um, she is fantastic and she has, um, as you well know, you know, she spent many years, um, not being very well liked by the, you know, the so-called authorities and the scientists and the can relate and all that sort of stuff.

Um, and one thing, one of the most memorable, I guess, bits of information that she got really clear with me about, not personally, but just in terms of her presentations of I've seen her multiple times, is the science that's now available and she's part of all that about that summer fellow situation.

Yeah.

I mean you referenced it before, it's like, and it's still use that you would've seen it yesterday flying up here.

Yeah.

It's like, no, we've gotta kill it.

We actually don't want rain over the summer 'cause it'll just grow weeds and then we've gotta spr and we actually don't 'cause we're gonna rob moisture.

It is such an ingrained, um.

Phenomena in farming and certainly in Australia, I'm sure over where you are too.

Mm-hmm.

And she mm-hmm.

She was the first person that I, I heard talking about the total reverse Yeah.

That we need.

Yep.

And the best thing for your soil.

Mm-hmm.

And your business is to cover if you wanna mm-hmm.

If you wanna step into that a bit.

'cause I think it's one of the most, it's the most challenging ideas for a lot of farmers.

Yep.

Crops, I'm gonna use this as an analogy.

Just last week over in the uk, we're out on an arable farm and the UK government is paying the farmers to not do anything after they harvest the crop and just have bears stubble there.

Wow.

And we walk out in this and they're explaining this program to me, but what do we see?

The, the whole ground is just covered with weeds.

Okay?

So I asked the group there, I said, what does this tell you?

Well, it's weeds.

We need to spray it.

And I said, really?

Is that what you get out of that?

Yeah.

And I says, uh, well, it's telling me that nature's trying to put a living root in that soil to feed biology, capture soil editor.

Solar energy feed biology.

I said, that is an absolutely ridiculous government program.

And the next day we met with the head of, of, uh, DEFRA, which is, has to do with, uh, government policies like this over there in the uk.

And I was explaining to her that that's an absolutely ridiculous waste of taxpayer dollars.

Plus it's actually having a negative compounding effect because you are losing soil aggregation.

You're not feeding biology, so you're destroying the, the natural water cycle.

You're destroying the nutrient cycle cycle, yet you're worried about climate change.

And then you have programs like that.

Now, from a farmer standpoint, it's long been proven as Dr.

Jones said, that we, rather than have that fallow period, let's have living, growing either crops or fodder crops, cover crops, et cetera, that you're just gonna build that aggregation deeper.

You're gonna enhance the water cycle, the nutrient cycle.

That's how you build resiliency.

Matter of fact, that's what my keynote will be on tomorrow morning.

Yeah, I knew, I knew I went through your briefcase before and I, I worked it out.

Are you gonna catch up with Christine while you're here?

Unfortunately, I don't think we're gonna have a chance to do that, but yeah.

Oh, boo.

Yeah.

Uh, no, she is awesome.

I know she's not doing as many appearance, probably any appearances anymore.

Yeah.

And I would really love to interview her one day.

Yeah.

Because she is.

Um, I was at a thing MCing at a conference probably five or six years ago in Victoria.

And as part of the conference we all went out to a farm, near a dairy farm nearby.

Now, this is five or six years ago, so things may have changed since, but she said she went to this dairy farm and he's doing all this wonderful stuff.

She picked up the soil and she said that is the best soil he's ever seen.

Really?

And for that, that's, that's, wow.

That's great's a big accolade.

That's great.

It is.

And he hadn't been doing it for very long, actually.

It's a few years.

It's great.

Yeah.

If she's, if Christine Jones is saying that you are certainly doing something right.

Um, if you is, is there anything, 'cause uh, dirt to Saw came out in 28?

18.

18.

Tell me.

Um, it was actually the first audio book I ever bought.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh.

And I was listening to it again on double time this morning.

Despite the annoying voice.

No, well it was, no, it was good.

No, I love it.

And I was double time.

You still understanding?

You still understand you really well in double time.

Tell me, um, uh.

What if you could include another chapter?

What would you add?

Is there anything you'd add in there now?

Yeah.

You know, we had not added the sixth principle of context, so that's not in my book, so that'll be the other one.

But I'll throw out a little bone.

We're actually working on two more books right now.

Wow.

So Dr.

Allen Williams and myself have two of them in the works.

Yep.

The one is simply on 6, 3, 4.

The the principles, rules, processes, and we're gonna use farms as an example of farms around the world.

What was that one?

6, 6, 3, 4.

So we use the term, we talk about the principles and processes.

Yeah.

But we also talk about three rules of adaptive stewardship.

And just briefly there, the rule of compounding that every single thing you do on a, on a farm has multiple effects, either positive or negative, never neutral, uh, the rule of disruption.

And that, uh, in order to drive change, you have to have that disruption.

I always use the analogy of a weightlifter training for the Olympics.

You don't lift the same amount every day.

You vary your routine in order to get stronger.

We need that in our ecosystems also.

And then the third, uh, rule is that, again, of diversity, because we have that in the principles, we have it in the, the rules.

We certainly have it in the processes.

So we're writing a book about that.

And then the second book is on adaptive grazing because no matter where I travel all over the world, uh, we're not.

Very few farms are using adaptive grazing.

They're not, um, they're not being adaptive.

They're being prescriptive.

Yeah.

And that gets their system stagnant.

And so that's what the, the next book's gonna be about.

So is it, is it, is it gonna be a bit of a practical handbook almost, or It is, yeah.

That one will be a kind of a how to book.

That'll be awesome.

Mm-hmm.

Because my, one of my questions was when we, we, well, I guess it is like, I mean, there's the, there's, there's the, um.

It's everywhere.

There's the application of adaptive grazing management with the animals as the tool, but what preparation can grazers do?

So you've got the, the animal part of it.

Mm-hmm.

But then you've obviously got the plant part of it.

Mm-hmm.

What, you know, what, what can farmers do?

It's maybe chapter three in your new book.

Uh, what, what, what can, what can farmers do gras do to sort of almost prepare their pasture or what skills they need to have before they can introduce the animals and their way?

Yeah, that's a great question.

And, and the one thing I see over and over, and I'm gonna be talking about it here in Wilmont, is that, that we're not allowing those plants.

To collect the solar energy, uh, because we're grazing them too short, taking too much so we don't have the leaf area to keep that energy cycle, which drives the nutrient cycle and water cycle.

That, and we don't have enough diversity, so we need to get those things in place.

The animals are simply a tool to A, allow disruption, but b, also to, to, uh, signal that plant that it needs to collect more solar energy because once a plant's bitten, it slough, su it exudates.

In order to attract biology to get the nutrients to regrow well, we need to understand, hey, we gotta have those four processes working.

Animals are just a small part of that, okay?

They're just a tool to convert it, to drive the system, convert it to dollars, but we've got to implement the principles and rules to drive the processes first.

Uh, well, I can't wait for that to come out because, you know, the thing is, and you, and you, you're dead right there.

There's, people are looking understandably, especially men, who are looking for prescription, they're looking for the formula.

Just tell me how to bloody do it.

Yeah.

And I'll just apply that.

Yeah.

They'll, they'll adopt a system.

And so many times that leads to failure, doesn't it?

Oh, oh, it does.

And, and there's gonna be a part of the book that deals with observation, because I really believe as, as land caretakers, we've lost the ability to observe.

You know, so often I go out with a client and they're, oh, there's that weed.

I gotta kill it.

And I'm, I'm like, no, we need to observe.

Why is that weed showing up?

What's it trying to tell us?

You know, we have to, we have to hone our observational skills and then adapt accordingly.

Tell me, Gabe, um.

You've been to Australia a few times, so you'll have some answers for this.

Uh, and if you don't, you're in big trouble for not observing enough.

Tell me, what are some of the interesting aspects of Australian climate or farming that you, you have taken, either taken ideas back or you find fascinating or you sort of particularly note, um, as a mm-hmm.

Northern hemisphere To the southern hemisphere.

Yeah.

Well, the one big one is the intensity of the sunlight.

And just how you've been a Tasmania yet.

Yeah.

How?

No, I have not.

But how you will evaporate to moisture to a much deeper depth because of that intensity and the power of that sunlight, which as I was showing on a farm yesterday with an infrared thermometer, how fast then that ground heats up if you don't have proper armor.

And so it becomes even more critical here that you keep armor on the surface, keep it well covered so that you don't evaporate that moisture, um, that, uh.

That really has stuck out to me.

Um, another thing of course, is the sheep, uh, you know, very few places except the UK do we work with, uh, with, uh, that many farms that have that many sheep and the challenges that are associated with that because with their mouths, they can select an individual plant and graze it right down.

And that lowers diversity over time and an ecosystem.

And I'm in no way saying sheep or bad.

They're good, they're beneficial, but you need to adapt accordingly and, and, and, uh, work through that.

Yeah, we, we excluded sheep from our farm for many years for that reason.

Then we introduced them again just for diversity and mm-hmm.

And, and just to spread risk and enterprise mm-hmm.

And that sort of thing.

Um, and we hadn't adapted quite accordingly.

And we certainly, um, we had some wonderful loose and paddocks that we'd signed many, many, many years ago before we sort of.

Changed a lot of practices and we did a really good job of selecting those, those loosened plants out right outta those paddocks mm-hmm.

With the sheep.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so that was something.

Mm-hmm.

Well, but we're, we are making some other, um, we're making some other plans about that.

So anything el any other practices?

I mean, Australia, you know, could boast that it sort of is the home of quite a few different, you know, key lineman's, you know, key line stuff.

And, and have you, have you come across, um, uh, Peter Andrews, have you Yeah, I'm very familiar with Key Line and, uh, uh, a tool, but quite frankly, applications, um, I'm one where I don't use iron unless absolutely necessary.

So, uh, we don't see that.

Um, broad scale adoption of that.

Yeah.

Although I certainly think it does have its place.

Um, one of the things that, uh, Australia that I find, um, uh, much like the us the history.

Uh, of a individual farm or station tends to carry through and things are done that way simply because they were done that way in the past.

And, and you see that often here.

Yeah.

And, uh, let's, um, let's, let's, let's dive on the stage.

Um, no, not less in the States, but, but I just notice it.

Yeah.

Uh, you know, it, it's, it's prominent, I wouldn't say it's any less in the states except for the fact that, uh, farms in the states are much more fragmented.

It appears much more rented property, you know, not owned.

Uh, it really, over here tends to be a little more gener longer in generations, you know, of farm ownership.

Not that way in the states.

Yeah, there's a lot of tr even though we, uh, haven't been here, the white fellas haven't been here.

Mm-hmm.

For as long as you guys have over there.

Um, there's some very inground.

Paradigms and conditions.

Yeah.

You know, good and bad cultural ones.

Yeah.

Tell me, uh, I also noticed Will Harris has appeared in the front of your book as well, huh?

Yeah.

Will and I are buds we go way back.

He classic, he's a classic and Will, will be in Will and his family will be featured in ground swell.

They play a permanent, uh, pretty prominent role in that documentary.

So we look forward to that.

I get down to Will's quite frequently, at least once, twice a year.

And Will's only been to my place once, simply because Rude.

It is, you know, but he's, he's that comfortable.

He's a, you know, he just, he's not tough enough to put up with our weather experience.

No.

The cold.

Yeah.

Just, just put another jacket on.

Yeah.

I had the pleasure of interviewing Will in J July last year that my family and I went to the States and we, we went to, um, went to Will's at, uh.

Uh, down there at, uh, Bluffton.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, had a lovely time.

He's the only per I, I, I would, I would try to do his accent all the time, and he'd say, that is the worst accent I've ever heard.

Yeah.

And then he's the only bloke I've ever heard in my life who actually pronounces the bee at the end of the lamb.

Did you, I've never noticed that he got, well, I, maybe I was making it up, but I'm pretty sure he goes, we got, we got pork and beef and lamb.

I never noticed that about him, and now I'll have to pay attention next time I talked to him.

Yeah.

We had a lovely, we had a lovely few days there.

He's very generous with his time.

Yeah.

And what a, what a remarkable story of mm-hmm.

Community.

Yep.

It is a lot of, and his employees just love him.

Yep.

He's a great guy.

He told the story about, um, well that's a little debatable.

I can say that.

'cause we're such good friends.

That's it.

Well, he does have his, his rifle sitting on the, in the, in the, in the shop there.

And he told the story about how they disappeared one day and he, how he dealt with that.

And then the sign, yeah, the sign that said there that, you know, these rifles were returned, but the person who stole it didn't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Basically.

Um, Gabe, I reckon I'm outta questions.

What, what I want, we wanna do, um, Sarah's not back yet, but she will.

'cause we are at Sarah Schmid's house here, Highbury in Armadale.

And we've, we've escaped the same, we've been, we've managed to keep in the shade, which is always a good thing.

Um, what I'm gonna do, Gabe, is, is we're gonna knock it off now.

Um, have a stretch and then I just do a little bonus thing.

It's a couple of, it's like three or four or five questions.

Pretty short and sweet.

Mm-hmm.

You can extrapolate as much as you.

Standard questions I ask my guests post the main interview.

Sure.

And we, well, we dunno what we're gonna do with them, but they should be interesting, I hope.

Sounds good.

I hope that, hope it was a bit more fun than this last deliber long, boring interview.

All the que not you.

It's all good.

Boring my questions.

It's all good.

Can I say what a lovely, um, time I've had this morning in a, in a beautiful part of the world and I'm so thrilled that, that you are here in Australia and you are talking the talk and, and, and showing us and telling us and teaching us how to do some of the wonderful things.

And what I also mentioned before, what I love about it is you're not mucking around with a couple acres here and there.

And that's fine if anyone was, but the fact that you've actually got broad acre cropping and grazing and you're incorporating that pad to plate and you're getting to those formula, I just think that's such a, such a wonderful story and it's such an inspiring thing to be done.

Obviously, that in your case, dependent on inter intergenerational kind of mm-hmm.

Co cooperation.

But the good news is it can be done.

It can be, and it is be done, and it's being done all over the world.

Oh, totally.

And that's a good thing.

Totally.

Yeah.

You know, it's not, it's not a myth.

It actually, it's something that we, that people can aspire to, you know, and I, I tell people, I gave a, a, uh, keynote at a conference in Canada 10 days ago, and.

And there was a lot of families there.

And, and I, I made the statement that there's no reason for any farm to not be profitable.

You know, it's all a state of mind and it's all telling and selling your story.

You know, now you, yes, you need the product to go along with that, but, but anybody can do this and, and the consumers are hungry for it.

And that's a good thing.

Yeah.

I reckon that's a really good one to, um, to sign off with.

Gabe, you're a legend.

I'm gonna get you to sign.

I actually don't, I, I haven't got your copy.

Uh, a copy of the book.

I might go get Sarah, one from Sarah there, um, and get you to sign.

But that one's from, um, Brock Raster, my overseer.

Oh.

Soon to be operations manager.

Oh, nice.

No one's see, so they won't even know.

Anyway, um, if I can get you, when we, when we turn this off, you can sign it for him.

I'd be happy to.

B-R-O-C-K.

He's a big admirer of yours and he's a home, um, drafting sheep as we speak.

Okay.

Making sure they don't eat that loose note anymore.

There we go.

Gabe, thanks so much.

Thank you.

Uh, let's have a little break and we'll be back for another 10 minutes.

Can you handle that?

Sounds good.

Awesome.

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