This October, Oni Press and Spectrevision are proud to present High Strangeness, a startling new five-part experiment in comic book storytelling.

Inspired by firsthand accounts of real paranormal encounters within the dimly lit borderlands of human experience, each 40-page prestige format chapter of High Strangeness will interrogate overlapping phenomena like UFOs, hauntings, cryptic sightings, and inexplicable synchronicities that together seem to indicate a higher unseen order of reality.

Teaming Spectrevision co-founder and real-life experiencer Daniel Noah with an otherworldly cast of comic talents, including Christopher Cantwell, Cecil Castellucci, good friend of the show Christian Ward, and more, High Strangest Book One arrives on October 8th investigate a 1967 encounter with the strange beings known as the Men in Black, with superstar writer Chris Condon, Ringo Award-winning artist Dave Chisholm, and cover artist Jock.

Look for High Strangers Book 1 on shelves October 8th at a local comic shop near you.

Only from Oni Press.

Hi, this is Anna Meyer, the comic book creator behind St.

Catherine, and you are listening to the Oblivion Bar podcast.

Welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast with your host, Chris Hacker and Aaron Knowles.

m Joining me today is the writer artist behind the 23rd Street original graphic novel, St.

Catherine, which centers around a struggling young woman who, along with worrying about her work-life balance, family, and her relationships, also now has a real-life demon following her around as well.

It is my pleasure to welcome Ana Meyer onto the Oblivion Bar podcast.

you.

Ana, wow.

We were chatting about this a little bit before the actual conversation.

So happy to have you here.

And as I'm finishing up...

this beautiful piece of work here, which I firmly believe in this is I'm not just saying this because you're right here in front of me.

I think this is one of the best books of 2025 thus far as I'm finishing it up and my partner Olivia, who was right next to me as I was finishing it up, can contest to this.

I had to reach out to you immediately.

I basically, you know, sent you a message, I think on Instagram and was like, Hey, would you be interested in coming onto my silly little comic book podcast to talk about St.

Catherine?

And you know, to your credit, you immediately It seems like very instantly you were like, yeah, I'd love to come on some, you know, at some point.

So, so great to finally have you here to talk about this book.

I'm so excited to be here and that's so sweet to hear that, yeah, it's amazing.

Have you been getting a lot of that recently?

you been like the beat or, you know, folks like that who like comics, journalism, and that's not what we do here, by the way, on the Abilene bar.

Like we are totally just fans who love comics that love to talk to, you know, talented folks like yourself.

But like, have you had like journalism folks and people in the industry reach out to you to talk about this book more frequently?

People telling me it's the greatest book of 2025.

Yeah, right.

Every day.

No.

Yeah.

I mean, I've been really, it's been really incredible.

I think the response to the book I've done, I know the beat did feature on it when it first came out, which was great.

And I did an interview with Ollie from the beat during Comic-Con, which was really great.

And so, yeah, there's definitely been some attention on it, which um as a debut artist and author.

It's really incredible.

So yeah, I've just been trying to like enjoy it so good all in.

And I'm very, yeah, I feel very blessed to have it as well.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I think that's probably a great place to start too, because my first question kind of centers around having the listener get to know you a little bit as again, as you just said, this is your debut work with 23rd street, which is, don't know if people know this or not.

23rd street is sort of the adult imprint of first second.

And my gosh, I mean, first second has been doing such incredible work here recently.

And they continued on with again, 23rd street and all the new books with that.

But we'll get to that here in just a moment with 23rd street.

I want to focus on you for a moment on a Let's get to know you a little bit in terms like your background.

I know you've done some design graphic design work, but what ultimately pulled you in the direction of telling stories sequentially with comics?

Yeah, I mean, it started just being, well, when I was like really little, I think I always had stories in my head and I was just a very imaginative kid and my mom really facilitated art with me and my siblings and I almost felt like my love of drawing came from the need to.

had these stories and characters in my head and like imaginary friends and I just wanted to see them on the page.

And then so I felt like comics just really naturally happened for me.

And I just, when I would go to the library to found the section and just fell in love with the medium.

And so I'd always been cooking up ideas in my head and just doodling comics in high school.

I had like a really bad webcomic I posted on DeviantArt and I would always like, once I found webcomics I really gravitated towards those and I was always trying to make my own webcomic.

But as webcomic artists know, it's really hard to balance that a lot of times and there's so many webcomics that have just kind of fallen into the ether and mine were a part of that.

uh But it was always a goal of mine to make a fully finished comic.

But professionally, I went into graphic design because you go, that's the practical thing to do.

And truly, honestly, uh I'm actually...

I actually have loved my design career and I'm very grateful for it because I feel like that stability allowed me to really sit down and take the time to work on St.

Catherine, which I started that as a webcomic, I think back in 2018, and was posting that on Webtoon and working on that.

And then I had an editor from For Second reach out to me and asked me to pitch it and then, you know, the rest is history and it's now a book.

So.

That's kind of my, like, my comic and graphic novel journey.

Sure.

And I love to hear that you said that like your entry point into, uh I guess storytelling, but you know, just like art in general too was comics because my sort of fun uh origin story to reading and loving, you know, art is comics as well.

My librarian when I was in middle school bought me my first comic, which was like, uh I don't know you remember those Marvel essentials, this black and white large trades from back in the day.

uh She bought me a Avengers.

essential book and the kind of the rest of history is actually sitting in the library behind me here.

And it, I was just curious, like, did you have someone like that in your life as well?

Did you sort of stumble upon comics through like maybe a Scholastics book fair, or did you have someone like, like Mrs.

Souter was my librarian at the time.

Did you have someone like a Mrs.

Souter in your life as a young person that got you into comics?

I can't really think of a particular person.

It really was just going to the library.

I'm one of five kids and my mom loved taking us to the library.

We were constantly there and a lot of my siblings were all pretty big readers.

I we just loved going to the library.

And I'll never forget the library in my small town was, was like two shelf, it was low and it was pretty small.

There weren't a ton, but it was enough as soon as I found it, just like things clicked.

was reading chapter books and prose stuff, then once I saw these comics and seen characters and stories that were like really exciting to me like superheroes and just seeing like I don't know women doing like cool stuff was really exciting to me from the story standpoint and so yeah that was I think it's just like going to the library constantly and picking through there it wasn't a huge you know collection but it was enough to really send out my love and then like finding it online when I wanted to read more comics so yeah that's why I kind of fell in love.

with them.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I hope this isn't too invasive, but were you kind of were you kind of nerdy, like as a young person?

Because I was, that's why I'm asking.

I was in like comics were like sort of the greatest power fantasy in any medium, right?

So like, found that like superheroes, you mentioned like superheroes immediately caught your attention for me as a young nerdy kid, like in Indiana, I'm a Midwestern kid just like you, you know, like what better sort of, again, power fantasy is there than you know, like Marvel superheroes, right?

Yeah, I think like I, and I don't know how much, maybe just through the media that I watch, but I had this dream when I was like little of being a secret agent, because for me, I'm like, that's the coolest thing you could be is like a secret agent, right?

Like in the 90s, like of course.

And so then like seeing that type of story.

So I don't know, I think I always gravitated towards like the sort of fighting and the nerdy stuff.

So yeah, I definitely was a nerd growing up.

found, when the book was coming out and when I was going to Comic-Con, that was like such a dream of mine when I was in like grade school and high school was to go to Comic-Con.

And uh I asked my dad to like send me some like old photos and I found photos of like my child, teenage bedroom.

And it's so funny because it's, I've got, uh and this ties into St.

Catherine, there's like a painting of like the mother Mary and then there's like a daredevil post right next to it.

It's like the duality of my upbringing.

Sorry.

I love that.

Yeah.

I'm also wearing a daredevil That was, that was my, well, I loved, I loved Daredevil because I loved seeing, and I remember I watched the Ben Affleck movie and that's what really like cemented it.

And then I went and like, I got to go to the comic section and like find more of these stories.

And I loved like the Catholicism in it.

I always joke that like Daredevil started my love of like a sad protagonist being sad in a beautiful church.

That's just like.

I think on the static that I love and Daredevil I would say is the origin of that for sure.

Sure.

I mean, that totally makes sense.

If you've read, I mean, I'm sure most folks listening to this have at least dabbled in the Frank Miller, know, Daredevil stuff from the eighties and nineties.

And it is all that.

Like that.

think that if nothing, that is sort of the central pillar of those, you know, that, that era of Daredevil was sort of his grip with morality and, you know, sort of fighting between his, you know, religion and the things that he was out at night doing and, and all these things.

So I totally get that.

And, you mentioned your trip to San Diego and how that was sort of a dream for you.

I love to sort of maybe noodle on that idea a little bit longer because I don't know if the listeners know this.

You know, again, St.

Catherine was part of this initial launch for 23rd Street through First Second.

Again, this is sort of their more adult, you know, adult.

I say that in quotations because I think First Second has done adult books before, right?

But this is sort of like their more focused adult imprint.

And St.

Catherine was part of that.

you know, I didn't have the chance to get to see you there at San Diego Comic Con.

know, Aaron and I, my co-hosts, we were there.

But as most people are, San Diego is a busy time for all of us.

But from what I could see from you your trip that you posted online and such, seemed like it was very, very exciting, probably really busy.

And I know this is kind of a broad sort of simple question, but how was that for San Diego Comic-Con for you?

Yeah, I mean it was amazing.

It was a dream come true.

It definitely felt a little bit like a dream I had kind of forgotten about because it like that was in the sense that like I mean, I'd never truly forgotten about it, but it was something that I wanted to go to so bad when I was in grade school and high school because I just loved the Marvel comics and that's what I was really into.

And then I think as I got a little older, I kind of got more into indie comics and I was reading more graphic novels and I was a little more in that world and I wasn't paying attention to the more Marvel DC Comic Con world of comics.

The big two as they call it sometimes.

Right, the big two for sure.

And then it was like when all the stuff started to ramp up with St.

Catherine and I started to realize like, oh, I'm going to be able to start maybe going to stuff.

went, I was like, oh my gosh, like, am I going to be able to go to Comic-Con?

I didn't even think, like, I was like, that wouldn't happen, no, would it?

And then when it did, it was just this really like...

It was amazing.

It was such a dream country.

I was so excited.

And yeah, it cool.

It was my first time in California too.

Like I'd never been to...

Yeah.

And I know I felt like such a job.

Like it's my first time in California.

I felt like I like, you know, just like stepped off the bus from the Midwest or whatever.

But like it was really special.

I think everyone there was really sweet.

I mean, I just love, I love cartoonists.

I love, I don't know, which they're just like such good people and...

So it was definitely overwhelming.

It was very busy and you know, which I was very overstimulated by that for sure.

But like, I loved the panels.

uh I loved going to panels.

I loved like being on the panels.

It really fun.

And yeah, it was awesome.

You know, I could tell you so for a young person again, to sort of speak on our similarity, because I think we're relatively the same age.

I would I would imagine San Diego.

Gosh, is that just not like a beacon?

This like magical place that I never thought I would get to go to.

And this year, 2025 was my sixth year in a row going to San Diego.

You know what adult money can spend on it is on it's going to San Diego, right?

Like that's what you can do.

So and you're so right.

It is just like this.

amazing place.

I tell people this all the time.

San Diego is by far my favorite convention.

know, go to San Diego, I go to New York, and I usually pick like one other one to go to each year.

San Diego is like just so far and away the best comic con and every new year is like my new favorite con of all time.

So I'm so happy that you got to experience that.

And you you mentioned the hustle and bustle of it all.

New York is way crazier, by the way, if you get a chance to go to New York in October, it is so insane.

I think I'm doing, I'm doing like a signing there, so I'll pop in there briefly.

I mean, I live in Brooklyn, so it's much easier for, can just hop on over there.

I'm, I'm excited for that as well, but yeah.

Yeah, and also, I just go back to San Diego really quickly.

I mean, you were on like the backdrop of First Second.

Is that correct?

I think I maybe saw that online.

Yeah, they had like a giant printout of St.

Catherine, which was wild.

It uh was like so big.

when I, the first night I was in, the people from 23rd-C are like, we have to show you something.

And they showed me that and it was so cool.

Again, it's just one of those like really surreal moments.

How do you, maybe this is a big question, so I apologize, but how do you contextualize that?

Right?

Like I think if you talk and we talked to a lot of great creators here on the show of all varying successes and all the things.

Something I'm always so curious about is like when they feel like when the creator themselves feels like they've quote unquote made it.

And that's not what I'm asking you here, but just like.

when you experience something like that with, again, doing the panel and seeing this creation of yours as like a central pillar of first, second and 23rd street at the biggest Comic-Con all year.

This is an opening for you to brag about yourself, by the way, if you want to.

like, how do you in your own brain, like, what is your reaction to that?

How do you contextualize that in your own brain?

Like your creation is up there among everybody, you know?

I mean, it's a really weird out of body experience.

And I think it happened, and very quickly, it can feel kind of normal.

You're like, oh, this is normal.

And then you have these moments where you think back to yourself just a couple years ago, two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, and you go, whoa, this is not normal.

This is really special.

This is really cool.

So yeah, I feel like I just try to drink it in, and I try to really enjoy it.

I always try to remind myself like what it's really easy I think in this industry what I've as someone who's very new to it is like I do feel like they're always throwing like they're always dangling like little carrots in front of you and there's always a goal post that's being moved it's like well yeah you got to go to comic-con but like did you do this and did you do that and what about this thing and I feel like I always try to remind myself I'm like I want to make comics and I love telling stories and I love being able to put those stories out there.

So I kind of always try to remind myself like that truly is the coolest thing and the best gift.

And I think about during this process of making this book leading up to, you know, even right now, today in this moment, the times that were just the most fun and joyous for me like really were when I was making this comic, like in the throes of it and watching it come to life, like through all the stages of the comic making process.

Like, yeah, like to me, that's just the most, I don't know, the most exciting thing for sure.

I mean, the other stuff is incredible and amazing too, but yeah, I try not to lose sight of like what I love is being able to make these stories.

They always say that like the artist.

Well, I mean, this doesn't really make sense in your particular situation because you are both the writer and the artist.

But like a lot of times you have the writer who is usually upfront talking about the book, you know, pitching the book, doing a lot of the marketing of the book.

And then the artist is generally just like behind their Jack Kirby cigar stained art table, just drawing like they're doing panels as the writers out promoting the book.

But for you in this sense, you know, again, as you said, you released it.

via Webtoons and then eventually through 23rd Street.

So, you know, it's one of those things where it was sort of a finished thing.

And this was a question I had originally, but it just sort of sparked within me as I was speaking words was from the very beginning of this, when you first started promoting it on Webtoons and releasing it there, how much changed from the beginning, like with this story with Catherine herself?

And this is, guess, sort of my loose transition into talking about the story a little bit.

And I want to stay relatively spoiler free because I want folks to read this book for themselves.

But like how much change for you from the beginning moments, you're setting out your thumbnails and you're writing your script to what I'm holding in my hand right now.

This finished book that I can I said was one of the best of the year.

You can put that you can put that on uh on a website somewhere if you want.

Right.

Oblivion bars.

Best of the year.

How much really changed for you throughout that entire process?

Oh yeah, mean, there definitely a lot of details have changed and I think that, you know, I think the overall like story beats for the most part are kind of similar.

I think with this story and with a lot of my stories, a lot of times I go in with a very clear idea of what my beginning, middle and end is.

And a lot of times it's like the in-between and the details that really change over time.

So the overall structure.

what I was planning for the webcomic.

And when I was doing this webcomic, uh I maybe did half of it.

And then at the halfway point, I stopped it to work on it as a full graphic novel.

uh But the overall structure was pretty much the same.

But I will say like what I decided to focus on changed, very like general and overarching.

I think when I first started writing the story, It was really a lot about the religious aspect and it was a lot about the relationship between Katherine and her mother.

That was kind of like the heart of it.

I mean like, oh, like this, you know, my mom doesn't understand me or she wants this for me, but like, you know, this character wants something else.

And that was what it kind of started off with.

And I think over time, I really grew to love the characters and I really grew to love Katherine's friend group and like, and her boyfriend and sort of her circle and her life.

I wanted to make it about so much more than just the mother daughter relationship.

I wanted it to be about the friends and just like, I think the incredible experience of, you know, being human and having friends.

So I think that's like the thematic change that has really happened.

But the religious stuff and the mother stuff is definitely still there.

But I think it's a little more rounded in its final form.

And then there's like little details.

There was, uh The one detail I always like to bring up from the webcomic is originally in the webcomic when she got possessed by a legion of demons, her eyes like turned yellow.

That was like part of the webcomic.

And I decided to take that out because, you know, as you know, with graphic novels and with comics, you have to be like really strategic about your timing because just every scene is a lot of drawing that you have to do.

And you think about it and you're like, well, if, like my eyes turn yellow, every person who knows me, if I interact with them, I would have to like explain to them and have you do some thing.

And I went, I just don't know if that's a good use of time.

And so I removed that.

so those are like some of the things.

Ode to Routine themes changed a little bit and also like those little details just to make it a cleaner story.

Uh-huh and sort of sticking with that same idea and you know something I find really special about this book is that and also I would say even you know you as a creator as well is that when I think about st.

Catharine of course as you said there's that religious aspect and of course the mother-daughter sort of relationship as well and I definitely want to talk about that I've heard you talk about this sort of maybe having to I don't know safeguard the relationship between Kath and her mother and your relationship with your mother and having to like prove to her that this isn't exactly how you felt as a young person.

But what I found, think maybe even more interesting was just sort of like the coming of age, right?

Like sort of the idea that like this young girl, she has friends, as you said, she's got family members in her life that she's sort of, she has all these relationships in her life that she's trying to sort of morph with as she gets older and how like those relationships change.

very quickly or, you know, over time.

this again, I guess I don't really have like a very great way of asking this question, but I'm just curious to hear you talk about sort of the balance between, you know, the autobiography part of this and then also sort of the allegory of religion and all the things.

Yeah.

And you know, it definitely is a fully fictional story, uh you know, for a lot of reasons, but I put a lot of my own truth in that.

And there's a lot of my own experience with growing up in a very religious uh environment.

I grew up very, uh very Catholic.

And like I always joke that me and my siblings were like the Catholic kids in our Catholic grade school and high school.

And so I put a lot of my own experience with that.

And there are a lot of similarities between the mother-daughter relationship and my own relationship with my mother.

But there's also a lot of differences, I would say.

I always say my mom is much cooler and weirder and funnier in the best way than um the mother in this book.

But I think that's what...

You kind of start with an inspiration that comes maybe from your own life and your own truth.

But I do believe at a certain point you have to focus on the story and those characters.

and seeing where that story is going and you know if it does start to reflect your own life that's naturally gonna happen but also like what makes sense to for that character but also like what makes an interesting story you know and what makes something entertaining so I think that's how I try to balance it uh make it feel true but also make it serve the story as well You know, it's interesting earlier you talked about how you are one of five siblings and in your home and like my favorite, I don't know if this is offensive and I hope it's not, but like every time I hear someone say they have that many siblings, my first question is always Catholic question mark.

Because usually that's that's the case.

Usually if you have more than like four siblings, more than likely there's some kind of Catholicism in there somewhere.

But you know, it's interesting.

You know, I actually really loved the relationship between.

well, at least where the relationship ends between Catherine and her mother in this story.

And I can say, and I don't mean to like put myself in this story because I think what you have created with St.

Catherine is much more interesting than what sort of my relationship is to religion.

But like as a young person growing up in the Midwest, I can sort of attest to this idea that I think you're sort of trying to illustrate is that, you know, as a young person, and again, I'm in Indiana, you are sort of brought up with this idea that like your football coach is also the pastor and like everyone's going to youth group.

And you almost feel like, and again, I guess I'll sort of expose my underbelly because something I really appreciate about you as a creator and the story is that it seems like you were also exposing your underbelly in a way.

that like, I'm not religious at all.

uh Agnostic is probably the best way to describe it.

I honestly don't really know.

I haven't put that much thought into it because that's sort of my approach to religion is that thus far in my life, I think, and I hope that I've been a pretty good person without it.

As a young person, I struggle with that because you have all these folks around you, people that you think are smart and moral and good and kind, all these things, they're all telling you they believe in this thing wholeheartedly without even really questioning it, right?

Or at least not outwardly questioning it.

And I never really connected like through again, youth groups and all the things I always felt sort of on the outside looking in not just not be able to connect the dots on this.

And I'm saying like religion and big white balloon letters in front of my face, you know?

em And then it was like probably around the time where I graduated high school and sort of left home and went to the military that I sort of just stopped trying and sort of just came to grips with the idea that this is something that I didn't fully believe.

And I guess I'll tie this exposing of my underbelly into a question with you is can you think back to a particular point in your life where that you sort of had that same epiphany?

Because you mentioned at the end of this book and sort of the afterword that like you are no longer Catholic.

and maybe as agnostic as sort of the way you would describe it as well.

And maybe you can correct me if that's changed since then.

But do you remember a particular time in your life where you sort of realized that Catholicism really wasn't something you wanted to continue on with?

Yeah, I think, you know, from a narrative and storytelling, it's like, you'd love to say there was like this epiphany moment and this like, instance that happened that's so clear.

It's like, that's when I realized like, it wasn't working for me, or I'm not part of this anymore.

But really, it just, it happened very gradually and very slowly over a long period of time.

uh It started for me in high school, because I was like, I was a theater kid, I was really into theater.

And it starts with you surround yourself by people who are queer and gay and it doesn't align with the religion and you kind of go, oh okay well you know like I don't agree with that but like I'll still subscribe to everything else and then just like slowly it's sort of you do that with like lots of other different things until one day you realize like I don't know if this is really me anymore.

um And so I think it happened really gradually.

I did have a moment where I first, and I talk about this a little bit in the afterword, but to give more details, like I did, like I didn't miss Mass.

So one of the things in the story is Catherine doesn't miss Mass for like 25 years.

And the first time she misses it, she gets possessed by Legion demons.

And that was me.

Like I just had always gone.

And it was actually, I was on a trip to New York City with a friend.

And this was like, we didn't have smartphones and it was Sunday.

my mom was literally like texting us like, make sure you go to church.

And we had looked up a church previously and we left like where we were staying and we were trying to find it and we couldn't find the church.

And my friend was like, yeah, let's just not go.

And I was like, yeah, we could just not go.

It wasn't, it just kind of, went, huh.

And then I, and then it dawned on me.

I'm like, my gosh, this is going to be the first time I've ever not gone.

Sunday mass.

so, so yeah.

And I think, again, like very gradually, it's just like every day you kind of think about that upbringing.

And I think more what it became was every day slowly realizing how much, even if I don't subscribe to that religion anymore, it does affect the way that I think and it does affect my thought patterns.

I could get very woo-woo about stuff and very like there's this cosmic balance of I do a bad thing, therefore like something of equal or maybe even greater depending on what I've done previously will happen.

And if I do a good thing, you know, therefore a very karma mindset.

And I think that's definitely a relic of upbringing.

So yeah, it's been, you know, just every day unpacking that.

And you mentioned in the afterword too, I know we keep referring to that because I'm trying to, again, stay away from like serious story points here.

um I guess a two-parter.

Number one, I know you mentioned in the, in the afterword that morality is not a currency.

I don't know if that's like a saying within Catholicism or not, but I, I really love what you said there as well.

Like, I think I sort of eventually morphed my idea.

Cause again, growing up in like a small Midwestern fly over town, you almost have like the seeds of religion.

imprinted on you in a way where like your, your sense of morality is like almost unquestionably tied to some form of religion.

When you start to separate yourself from that, I think karma is like the natural progression for some folks that like you start to think that like you can only do good or you can only get good things if you like put good things back into the world and sort of that process.

But I feel like as I've gotten older, okay, let me reframe the question, but I'm going to reframe it here a little bit.

When you think of St.

Catherine and you think, cause I don't think this book is like telling people not to be Catholic, you know?

I think it's safe to say that like it's not trying to say that, like say you're a young person and you pick up St.

Catherine from, you know, a library or from a bookstore or what have you.

I hate to ask you like, what do you want them to take from this?

But like when you think of, you know, the young Anna and they, and she reads this book here, is there something that you hope they get from this?

Like, Again, I hate asking the author, like, what did you mean when you wrote this kind of thing?

like, this thing is saying a lot of great things and I think it's there's a lot of important things.

like, is there anything in particular for you that you really hope gets across with St.

Catherine?

Yeah, well, the one thing is like, don't like it's like, don't be afraid of hell.

Don't be afraid of going to hell.

And that's something it sounds so like sometimes it's like, that's like so stupid.

like when I I had this realization, there was like one time I just became I was just like laying awake in bed and I was anxious and I was thinking about all the bad things I had done.

And it was so scary for me.

And I sort of realized, why is this like so scary?

Obviously, like I want to be a good person.

Everyone should try to be a good person.

But I realized, I'm like, I'm still very afraid of burning in hell for all eternity, even though I don't believe that.

So I think giving for people that do have that, um that fear, sort of trying to relieve them of that.

I think the more general thing, because I know that's not something that everyone experiences, and I'm very jealous of people that don't have that.

um But.

You know, obviously, like I'm talking about like, does it mean to be a good person and morality?

But I don't have the answers.

You're not going to pick up this book and get that answer.

It's more I just feel like I want to show, like, be wary of anyone or anything that is telling you they have all the answers.

em And that can be religion.

lot of times it is religion, but it can also be like a workout routine or hustle culture.

It can be some sort of ideology or even like a self help.

book or something.

think we love the idea of like, you follow all these steps and you'll be happy, you'll always do the right thing and that's just not how things work.

You have to take every day like one at a time.

So that's war.

Be wary of anyone that says they have all the answers and like the beauty and amazingness that it is to have friends and people that care and understand you.

Life is more nuanced than that, isn't it?

Right?

Like you can't just sort of follow a checklist or if we're talking in today's terms, you know, go to chat GPT and look up top 10 ways to be moral.

that doesn't exist.

Do not do that, please.

uh You know, and you know, to speak on sort of the friendship aspect of this, we sort of become a bit of a product of our environment in a way.

Right.

You know, especially as young people were almost like Etch A Sketch is that sort of are shaken every day and, and the people we, we do become like a version of the people around us.

I think that's important for young people to remember, you know, having young siblings myself, I think it's always important that you remind, I try to remind my younger siblings that like they, you got to surround yourself with people that you, that you find value in, that you feel cared for.

Again, as someone who's not religious, I think I've made that pretty clear thus far is that like religion has perks, right?

Community.

um Like it has things that it can do really well.

But again, I agree with you 100 % is that the moment that you have someone sort of threatening you with eternal damnation, if you don't do these six things plus hate gay people, I don't know.

I just don't know if I can necessarily get behind that.

That just seems a little morally gray for me even.

And I think that's why I connected with this book so much again, as a as a white Midwestern straight man.

I know I'm not exactly the demographic I feel maybe intentionally.

made for this book, but I think that's why it's so special.

Why I was able to read it and go, Oh, I remember what it's like to be a young person and make mistakes and know well, and initially think, Oh my God, this is the, this is the end.

I'm, definitely going to hell for this one, you know?

But then as you, as you get older, start to realize that like, honestly, there are some lessons you can't even learn without making like a grave mistake, like maybe hooking up with someone or skipping out on work or that's obviously two very different things, like there are mistakes to be made, guess is my.

Yeah, and you know, I think another thing with this book is I really wanted to explore like, what do you do when you like, do really like mess up and you do something that's bad?

Because you know, we all have those moments where we do mess up and we were not a good person.

And I think a route I could have taken this like religious story is I think about like, I could have maybe had Catherine do something that is not aligned with the church.

And she kind of comes to this realization, like she feels a lot of guilt for something that she did that doesn't align with Catholicism.

But I didn't want the answer at the end of the book to be like, well, that's actually, it's good.

It's okay.

Like, let's say if I, like, maybe it was like an abortion or maybe, um, like, um, having premarital sex, like something that's very like a sin in religion, but not really, at least I don't, you know, I don't believe it, not really out in the world.

in the secular world, I wanted her to do something that was like bad because it's like as adults, like what do we do when we need to atone for things?

know, like how do we answer for the times when we messed up?

And you don't need to feel terribly guilty about it, but also like, you know, sometimes there are consequences for your actions.

And that was just like, that was interesting to me, especially when I'm exploring like what does morality look like post religion.

It's interesting.

have sort of this belief and this isn't got you journalism.

I hope not at least, but I'm of the belief that like religion held a very, very important part of our civilization as humans at a certain point.

And then it just sort of very gradually morphed into this thing that And I mean this respectfully to everybody who's maybe listening to this who is religious.

hope that none of this conversation, what I'm about to say is offensive in any way.

This is sort of my own dumb thoughts going into a microphone in front of a very talented person.

But I'm a firm believer that like organized religion, at least in like the sense that we know it today will slowly fade as our civilization continues to grow.

And that like the way we needed it, we won't need it any longer.

I feel like we're already sort of seeing the seeds of that with like, and I know that like we're like very much in the infantile stage of our being, right?

But like 200, 300 years from now, I don't know if we're going to have like organized religion the same way that we do now.

There'll obviously be a little sex of that, like, it'll, it'll very drastically change.

And I think that that is sort of a testament to the idea that like morality is something that is within and that's something that like we choose that religion helped with, but no longer, we don't know, we no longer need it, right?

think that yes, the way that religion has been historically and the organized religion, I definitely do think that is changing and we're seeing the fall of it.

But I really think that there is something so innate in humans to have some higher being or have some outside thing that's saying this is the way to do it.

And again, I just see this pipeline in my own life of people who are raised religious where they leave religion, but then they go to astrology or they go to tarot cards.

and things like that, which I also do.

I'm also like, yeah, I don't believe in Catholicism, but also I'm going to pull a tarot card.

And so uh yeah, it is interesting.

there might come a time, and we might not know what that is going to look like years from now, thousands of years from now.

But yeah, I think there's something so innately human about wanting that cosmic force of somewhat to just like...

telling me that third party to like tell me I'm on the right track or I'm on the wrong track or what do I do?

And a lot of times like they're there and that's the thing is like, I don't know if that exists, but people are always, you know, gonna try to find it.

I don't mean to get too heady here.

And I apologize if I'm trapping you in an answer here, but like, I think it's I think it's dying.

Like I think it's death.

We're all worried that like at the end of this, it's just black, right?

At least like, I don't know, but I think that's sort of my relationship to religion too is that I don't know.

Ana, I think you're really smart and talented, but like, I don't think you know.

I don't know.

don't think anybody knows.

thinking about it I thought it was gonna burn in hell so like I don't know.

But I think that's that's sort of the cattle, or at least at the catalyst for maybe a large portion of folks is that like they they really firmly want to believe that like it's better to believe in something than to believe than to believe that than to believe the more realistic thing.

Maybe I don't know, I don't know.

Maybe that isn't the more realistic thing.

Maybe there is someone in the in the clouds welcoming us, perhaps.

But I don't know.

the thing is like we don't know but I think again like what we don't know but what I tried to focus on in this story is it's like I can't answer any of that stuff I feel like none of us can answer this but like what I do know is I love love humans and I love this earth and I feel like so much of religion is telling us like yeah it's great here but like it's gonna be so much better and it's like well why don't we celebrate like what is beautiful here So I really tried to focus on the small moments and lifting up the little details in life that I just find to be really sweet, whether that's how a friend acts when they're feeling really stressed out or even just how someone keeps their room.

I don't know, the books that someone reads.

It's just those little things I try to focus on in this story to sort of...

know, juxtapose against like these big cosmic questions that at a certain point we go, I don't know, does it matter that much to know?

Yeah, exactly.

know, to sort of speak of what you're saying there, too, like it's those we've already sort of spoken on the mistakes in life, but like those small mistakes are OK.

And it's OK to make mistakes, big or small.

Like, I think it's more important to again, as you said, how do you adjust to that?

How do you correct?

Like if you do make this grave mistake, how do you correct it?

Or what do you learn from it?

You know, all those things I think are more beneficial.

to who we eventually become rather than like worrying about the ramifications of our afterlife and whether we're going to end up in hell or heaven.

yeah.

Well, let me ask you this.

Just sort of, just sort of move on from St.

Catherine here.

I'm just curious.

I heard you sort of tease the idea that you might be working on something new and it's going to possibly be at 23rd street.

So that is it.

That's still well, so I am working on something new.

It's it's currently I'm like, I like never know.

what?

I've heard I've already said it.

I've already said it on the beat.

But like it was originally acquired uh by for a second.

But I think that uh I don't know.

And the story could it could very much go either adult or it could go YA.

It was pitched as YA.

And that's what I'm working on.

And you know, think St.

Catherine kind of is like that too.

I think St.

Catherine is like in that bridge between YA and adult.

And yeah, but also to say I am working on something else and I love, 23rd Street has been so incredible.

I'm so excited for the books coming out from 23rd Street and just seeing like more dedicated adult graphic novels that are in the spirit of a first, second story.

I think it's just like.

really cool and I'm so honored to be a part of it.

Yeah, as you said, as I talked about earlier at the beginning of the conversation, 23rd street and first second, absolutely killing it.

You know, later this month, we're going to be talking to Jesse Larrigan for drone, which I also have right here next to me as well.

Absolutely incredible.

good.

His panel work is amazing.

One of a kind, right?

And then I've heard you express admiration, but Jen Wang is also someone who I really want to eventually talk to here on the show.

Yes.

ah Amazing.

She was actually like, when I was in like my early twenties, I had a roommate who was just like getting rid of a couple books and they were like, I think he would like this book and hand me Coco Be Good.

And I was in the web comic world and I was like, wait a minute, this is like a full comic, but in like book form.

Like I didn't, like I had read serialized comics.

I had read a lot of web comics, but I was...

sort of like I didn't know this existed and you know saw the little first second logo on the spine and I just really fixed it on for a second and I would you know pick up so many of their books and ah yeah and so going back to what we were talking about earlier like they were such a dream publisher for me and so being able to work with them has just been again like another dream come true.

Sure.

Can I press you just a little bit on this new project?

Again, I don't want you to try to I don't want to mind you for anything here, but are there any sort of loose ideas or is there anything that we can sort of noodle on here in this conversation leading up to this eventual second installment in the on a Meyer bibliography?

Well, I will say it is very different from such a veteran.

But in like its subject matter and like setting, it's a period piece.

It's a little more of an adventure.

um And uh it is, there's lots of boats in it, which I'm so excited to be drawing.

But I think one of the through lines that you see in this story is I find that a lot of my stories, I'm very fixated on superstition and what people like how people form different superstitions.

And so I think that when I think about all the stories I've like written up in my head that always plays into it.

So while it's a very different story than uh St.

Catherine, it being like sort of an Arctic monster hunting story, it still deals with a lot of superstition and a lot of the fear of the unknown as well.

What's the superstition that you have that you just can't get over?

Like you have to do it.

God, there's like, there's too many.

have this, um, I have this little, um, I hate flying.

really, and it's been a newer thing.

I really, I'm really so scared when I'm flying and I have this little like rock that I put in my shoe whenever I fly and it just like makes me feel better.

uh Yeah, I'm like, I can be, I remember a friend asked me, they were like, are you superstitious?

I'm like, yeah, I'm trying not to be, but I am.

I'm like really embarrassed that I'm very superstitious.

I think it comes from uh the Catholicism for sure.

yeah.

Interesting rock in the shoe.

I've never heard that one before.

I have a two part response to this one here.

So number one, my superstition is not washing a jersey after like a big sports game.

I know that that's like a total like man thing like and I do it because it makes sense in my brain.

Like if we win, we got to keep that juju going, right?

We to keep that thing rolling.

But I will say on the flying side of things, and I'm definitely afraid of heights.

I was very, very afraid of flying for a long time.

I'm not anymore, but.

It's almost it's this is going to sound really morbid.

I apologize.

But like when I get into that flying tube now, I just am like, you know what?

If this is how I go, this is this is we all collectively decided to do this thing.

We're all defying like human existence and God all at the same time.

Like the and I say God and like general like little G God.

But like, you know, like we're doing this very unhuman thing.

And if we die from it, then I think that's just like part of the price of convenience.

That's a very normal...

I feel like that makes a lot of sense.

My fiance is where he always tells me, he's like, well, if there's turbulence, I just know there's nothing I can do when there's...

What do do?

And I say, no, that's the problem.

Someone who's a control freak, I have to be able to do something.

And so I'm sitting there in the, you know, the plane seat and I'm going, okay, what can I possibly do?

Can I fly the plane?

Maybe I'll try to figure out a way because I have to have control of the situation.

I think that's what flying is so scary to me is like, there's not much you can do.

But yeah.

You do the Iron Man 3 thing where you connect hands with six other people and form like a circle and you all sort of just glide down together.

I know, right?

I would probably try it because I feel like I know I'm not good at, I'm not always good at like just letting them.

I'm like there has to be something I can do.

I'm an eldest daughter so of course I'm like there's always a way out.

Right.

Right.

Well, I've had such a great time talking to you today, not just about St.

Catherine, but just also your career thus far.

And I sort of wanted to end on sort of a general question that we like to ask our guests that come on here.

And that's just sort of like, what are you enjoying recently?

And that can be, you know, a comic that could be movies, a television series, an album, your second favorite podcast after the oblivion bar, just whatever you're sort of enjoying at the moment.

I'd love to sort of just hear about it and we can.

I'm sure there's something that we also, we sort of share a love for.

I am reading Treasure Island for the first time and I was reading it on the beach, which was incredible.

was reading, so I'm, another book that I'm reading right now is I'm reading Between Two Fires, which is really great.

It's very St.

Catherine coded.

Blur, Chris Blurman, is that?

I believe so.

Yeah.

But it's great.

I recommend it.

But I was going to the beach with some friends.

Yes, I was going to be with some friends and it's like about a plague and like medieval France.

It's not very beach reading.

And I was like, this is not really the vibe.

What can I read?

And I saw Treasure Island on my bookshelf and I was like, I'll read this.

And it was so enjoyable.

I highly recommend reading Treasure Island on the beach.

So I've been enjoying that.

another um another uh comic that is very Catholic coded that I highly recommend is the Confessional.

um That's a great comic that I read recently.

It's like about vampires in New Orleans and there's like a priest in it.

It's really great.

So I recommend that for sure.

I'm looking up the confessional right now because I'm curious.

You said it was a confession or confessional.

Confessional.

Okay, got it.

Because there's like a webtoon called the confession.

That's why I was curious if that was okay.

So I really enjoyed that.

And yeah, and another another graphic novel that I read this year that I absolutely love was The Worst Journey in the World.

I actually literally have it right here.

It's like an art.

It's about the Scott expedition to Antarctica.

I highly recommend that.

It's awesome.

Yeah, books and comics I've been enjoying.

I'm actually looking at the confessional now here by Paige Hender.

You said that was for through Silver Sprocket.

Great folks over there at Silver Sprocket.

And this has sort of a similar I'm just looking at a couple of preview pages, but it has a very similar sort of color scheme.

uh Certain parts of St.

Catherine as well, sort of the sort of pink.

What would you call this sort of color scheme?

I mean, I would call it a limited color palette.

go.

Yeah, like a limited color palette.

it's like pink, blue, white, some grays in there as well.

Like, yeah, definitely.

I can definitely see that.

That's cool.

I like this a lot.

So those are great recommendations.

I love it.

Last thing I'll say, I think I heard you talk about your love of Constantine.

Oh, yeah.

DC movie from the 2000s with counter.

Yeah.

really like in the, in the two thousands, I loved like, um, I love Constantine.

love Van Helsing.

Like they all, they all felt, they all felt in that, like, I don't know that like, but 2000 sort of world, but yeah.

Yeah, I don't know where I saw you talk about that, but that has forever been even back in the day.

was a movie that I thought was always sort of criminally overlooked.

And, you know, it's not perfect, of course, because it part of that era.

But just just so innovative in the way that they they created that movie.

And I think I've heard rumblings that they're going to return to that in some way.

But it's just interesting.

Have you ever read any of the Hellblazer stuff like the comic from the 80s?

That's OK.

I mean.

We all get to things as we get to them, right?

Like I'm trad more.

We had him on the show earlier this last month, and he mentioned that he was just reading Prince Valiant for the first time.

And that's like, I think for a lot of people, that's sort of a staple within comics.

And I've never even read that myself.

I've never even read Sandman.

So I totally get that.

Like there are certain things we get to when we get to them.

But Hellblazer, I highly recommend it.

I absolutely love it.

And if you love the movie, there's a lot of that, obviously, in the comic as well.

So yeah.

Well, what a pleasure again, as I said a moment ago, so great to have you here on the show.

Again, I can't praise St.

Catherine enough.

really think folks, this is something that not only just like it reads really well.

I've been trying to search for a way to describe this throughout our conversation and cannot find a more romantic way to say it, but it's sort of just like even though the story isn't really comforting necessarily, I felt really comforting reading it, know?

is one of those things that like just flipping through it, it just it was sort of a very pleasing experience to go through this book.

Sometimes comics, even ones that I enjoy, can be a bit of a chore, right, to read.

uh This to me, I think is something this will join a fraternity of books that I can hand someone go, hey, this is why comics are cool.

And then I hand it to them and they they read this and then they, you know, very similar to Miss Souter from back in the day when she gave me my first Avengers book.

Hopefully gets them into comic.

This is a great poster child for why comics are great.

And for this to be your first work ever, my gosh, just like what an incredible debut.

And I cannot wait to see what this expedition see book, whatever you have going on next.

I can't to see it.

If I don't, I will still read it regardless.

just I this book here, St.

Catherine has made me a fan of yours uh forever.

So.

Thank you so much for creating this and thank you so much for joining us here on the Oblivion Bar.

And I guess before I let you go, I'll bother you for one more sort of broad, how do people follow your work, handles on social media, all the things.

Yeah, I mean, I think the best way to follow my work is on Instagram.

My Instagram is bruiserkey.

And you can also, it's that same handle on Blue Sky.

I feel like right now, currently, Instagram and Blue Sky are the places that I'm most active.

I like how you uh preface that with like right now because none of us know where like Instagram is gonna be in like six to eight.

I know but you know like my I feel like for my handle usually if I need to you know jump ship to another platform usually I can get it if not then maybe I'll have a new one in the future but yeah Sure.

Well, I'll have your website and all your handles linked below in the show notes for everybody.

And also have a link to 23rd Street's website as well to purchase your copy of St.

Catherine.

So one last thing, I guess you said you're possibly going to be at New York Comic Con as well in October.

Yes, briefly, I believe I'm gonna be there.

I'll post it on my Instagram.

There you go.

But I believe it's gonna be Friday.

OK, awesome.

Well, I'll be at New York.

And I mentioned in our original chat that I was going to try to find you.

And as I said earlier, it was insanity from the moment.

Like every day on the floor, I just was like working from the moment.

But I will I will make an effort this time to just come and say hello in person this time.

And thank you again for coming on the show.

Yeah, of course, that would be great.

Awesome.

Well, Anna again, love to have you back on the show at some point when you eventually announced this, this new book and it's officially out.

Love to have you back on whether again before or while it's already out, but uh what an absolute pleasure.

And uh we'd love to talk to you again in the future.

Thank you so much, Chris.

uh