[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast where we give you a strong biblical framework and lots of practical ideas on how to live intentionally as a father and a husband.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Brooke Moser and I'm Justin Whitmore Early and we're your host to guide you through the many roles and challenges that God is calling you to to live intentionally as a father.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're following a visual framework that you can check out at intentionalfatherhood.org and it's going to help you break down fatherhood into eight columns.

[SPEAKER_03]: And in each one, we're going to talk about how God made you to be a father and what practical habits you can start trying today in order to live intentionally into that home.

[SPEAKER_01]: So come along with us as we follow Jesus on this journey towards being more intentional fathers.

[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to the intentional Fatherhood podcast episode for here we are season two, man, I, the last conversation about giving our, our life away, I love that conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: a little dark.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's that?

[SPEAKER_01]: All of the devices, difficult things that block us.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to try to get a little more light-hearted here, not light-hearted, hopeful, hopeful.

[SPEAKER_01]: We want to do a whole episode on practices for giving your life away.

[SPEAKER_01]: What are the kinds of things we can do, practice now, and our ordinary regular busy overwhelmed, complicated, actual life of fatherhood.

[SPEAKER_01]: Two-nineralists start to lean into that self-emptying that makes us more like Jesus.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: So before we do, you have questions, I'm sure, and we love your questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: So send them one minute voice memo with your name where you're from to hello at intentional fatherhood.org.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for doing that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Also, we're going to say it.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're going to say it again.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for rating, subscribing, and or leaving a comment.

[SPEAKER_03]: they all three help.

[SPEAKER_03]: The Trinity is a blessing in our own life, but also when it comes to ratings, reviews, and subscribing.

[SPEAKER_03]: So if you could do that, if you listen on Apple, thank you.

[SPEAKER_03]: The Spotify community, by the way, is on is on trend to dominate the Apple community.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm just saying, Spotify crew, let's do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like, let's take over the Apple community or let's like continue to go on part together.

[SPEAKER_03]: But [SPEAKER_03]: The amount of subscribers and or listeners is pretty close to even so But thank you wherever you listen, please do that that's super helpful, and then also you can watch all this on YouTube check that out as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Excellent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Excellent.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, can I kick us off?

[SPEAKER_01]: Please do, sir.

[SPEAKER_01]: Practices for giving your life away.

[SPEAKER_01]: We want to talk about three categories in this episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: Spiritual disciplines for your everyday life to lean in unite yourself to experience the God who gave his life for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: quick reminder there of the big why in our last episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is not just a stoic idea of embracing the suck.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is not just an idea of like, oh, you can find us overlining.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, this is the idea that God actually calls us to get our life together in order to give it away because that's the movement of Christ.

[SPEAKER_01]: He gave up his life so that we, his children [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So as fathers, we practice that trajectory and give up our life so that our wives, our children might be blessed and find life to the full.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in doing so, we find that actually that's truly who we are and we in the paradoxical blessing of God also find our life.

[SPEAKER_01]: So first, spiritual disciplines of how to look to the God who does that for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: Second category we want to [SPEAKER_01]: physical disciplines.

[SPEAKER_01]: How do we actually practice in the body embracing this path of self-emptying?

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk about exercise, we'll talk about fasting, practicing self-emptying in order to find that fulfillment.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then third we want to talk about a category of [SPEAKER_01]: gratitude and joy.

[SPEAKER_01]: But how we actually need to lean in, we talked about this in the last episode, the easiest thing to do as a father in this giving your life a way stage of life is to grow bitter, to grow cynical, to grow joyless and lifeless.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we don't want to do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: We worship a God who has destined us all for the great wedding supper of the lamb.

[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we practice joy, gratitude now?

[SPEAKER_01]: But let's start with spiritual disciplines.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to kick it off with, [SPEAKER_01]: question to you, Brooke.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: What does it actually look like in your stage of complicated family life, your four kids, range of ages, range of health issues going on, range of complications in your life?

[SPEAKER_01]: What does it look like to make time to be with God in the word and prayer on a regular?

[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking daily basis here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking weekly or monthly rhythms in other places, but daily [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I have to be honest to start on the non-serious note.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for letting me wear your Bucky's hat.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're not sponsored.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're not sponsored.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're open to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: But we're open to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: What would you even give us?

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure.

[SPEAKER_03]: But we're just glad.

[SPEAKER_01]: But watch it on YouTube, too, episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I had it on.

[SPEAKER_03]: And also, thank you for letting me.

[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for giving me this hat.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think you were better than me, actually.

[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, yeah, we'll just trade hats throughout this whole thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: We'll be fun.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um oh, I'm wearing the one you gave me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're a rambling rambling man.

[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, anyway, forget about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: This was the West Coast.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're wearing the East Coast.

[SPEAKER_01]: There it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: We tried it.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think, I mean, well, I want to be really clear not to overcomplicate it because I think most things in our life like this are best.

[SPEAKER_03]: They're best when they are simple.

[SPEAKER_03]: My favorite verse about this idea because it's really simple is in Luke, Jesus often withdrew to the lonely places.

[SPEAKER_03]: In prayer, when you break that down, when you look into other translations and the Greek of it, it can be said, Jesus often withdrew to the lonely places in prayer, and I just love that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love that His routine.

[SPEAKER_03]: was consistent.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it wasn't rigid, but it was rooted.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it was really helpful for me to realize like Jesus wasn't rigid and unrealistic about his practices, but he was rooted and consistent with them.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's a hopefully an encouragement to give men because I think life throws so many things out of us in one given day that we can become so rigid about some of these things that we forget that that's not the point rigidity is not the point no rootedness is the point come back to say rhythms not rules of say off and there you go but because that is what is normal Jesus often with true [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: If somebody described your life, it's not, hey, every day, necessarily, you always do it like this.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what is the norm of your life?

[SPEAKER_01]: What do you often do?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we did an episode explaining some more details.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I know we're not going to cover all those, but we did go into even more detail on this on season one about some of our spiritual practices.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, listen to that.

[SPEAKER_03]: If that's helpful, we'll put the link in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you can just immediately listen to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: But [SPEAKER_03]: I think that, you know, I want to start with that because there is this idea sometimes that the power is in the rigidity or like I'm doing it every day almost like legalism and it's not the, it is in your heart, it's in your posture.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to start with that because every day I do have, it's not rigid, but it is pretty consistent because I'm in a space of life, like many men, [SPEAKER_03]: that in order to give my life away, I need to wake up and have a moment to die.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's truly that serious for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's an opportunity to center myself.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I try wherever I am, no matter what I'm doing or traveling, whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have the same pretty consistent morning routine of I wake up, I make.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm literally dying to know what it actually is now.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you what this is consistent wherever I wake up and first thing what I try to do is I try to and I don't always remember this but quote Tom Psalm 23 before I got it at a bed because it's just a reminder of like the whole thing yeah before you know and in primary it's six versus not too bad [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a crazy amount of memory, but then I try to then I get up and then I make copious amounts of extra strong coffee.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean just like really strong coffee.

[SPEAKER_01]: Strong, spiritual practice.

[SPEAKER_03]: French press definitely.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to describe mine in a minute.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I can't wait.

[SPEAKER_03]: French press primarily because it moves my heart, my soul, and my balance.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's a gift, you know?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, you guys know exactly.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I told you we'd be practical.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're going all the way there.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think, I love, I like that's a huge routine.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's just a rhythmic thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then it's always, you know, this, it is the same thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is prayer, reading of scripture and spiritual reading.

[SPEAKER_03]: and sometimes journaling.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's kind of all that in one.

[SPEAKER_03]: And some days, I'm like, so distracted, I'm only praying.

[SPEAKER_03]: And some days, I'm so distracted, I'm only reading.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes on the longer mornings, I'm able to like, pray, reflect on scripture, journal, and that each of those parts look like.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so I think for prayer, it's starting with gratitude.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's simply what's on my mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't put a ton of healing, sitting, journaling or just talking.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I'll be, I'll be, I'll be, this is good, I'll be, I'll get even more specific.

[SPEAKER_03]: In the summertime, it's outside because it's beautiful where I live and it's cold in the winter, so it's outside, which is nice because it's just quiet.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's usually early.

[SPEAKER_03]: I wake up earlier before the kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: My wife wakes up even earlier than I do, but you know, the goal is up before kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is my rule because then I'm on an erupted.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's way better.

[SPEAKER_03]: Some of you, if you're like trying to do this when your kids are awake, feels nearly impossible.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I always have a hard time when I wake up in life is already started.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's very hard.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's very hard for me to start.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is not the ideal.

[SPEAKER_01]: So keep on.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and this stage is, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like certain stages, it's okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think domestic monastery is perfect for this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, hey, it doesn't have to look like a quiet time every morning or a time to pre with no boundaries of time.

[SPEAKER_03]: It looks very different and it should, and that's okay.

[SPEAKER_03]: In my stage of life, I'm able to do this because our kids are consistent with sleep.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it looks like waking up and praying.

[SPEAKER_03]: No journals, no vibles, no, that's just talking to God.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like conversation.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I stopped going through a reading plan of trying to go through the Bible in a whole year because I realized I was checking off a box and I was not getting it into my heart.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was getting into my head.

[SPEAKER_01]: But so there have been times where you use the reading.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think everyone at some point in your life, if you follow Jesus, read through the whole Bible.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you can do it in a year, great.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's helpful.

[SPEAKER_03]: Read through the whole Bible.

[SPEAKER_03]: It makes so much more sense when you read the whole thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I think if you can and one year I was like I can't want new language so I read through the whole Bible in the message translation Oh, it's such a fun way to do it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think the point isn't to again.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like be creative.

[SPEAKER_03]: What sounds interesting?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, something you can stick to That was not helpful.

[SPEAKER_03]: So right now what like reading through it every single day like okay through two two chapters in the old Testament one in the new two songs It just became overwhelming in a task and I realized I was not enjoying it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was like that's not the point [SPEAKER_03]: So it's picking usually a scripture or just a passage and it's praying through it, looking at it, reading it through, just trying to understand even more.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like sometimes if it triggers a word, I'll actually have my iPad, which I don't normally do, but I'll look it up and study.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'll try to understand it more.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, that's the reading time and then usually if I have time, I mean, sometimes I don't a lot, sometimes I do is I'm always reading through a spiritual writer.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what you meant when you said spiritual reading.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was sure if you were to talk in lefty of divina.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, or reflective reading.

[SPEAKER_03]: You just read somebody who who when I read them, they move my soul to God.

[SPEAKER_03]: So this is not fiction.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is not, this is someone who is in the same vein and lane of Jesus following who [SPEAKER_03]: that that is not directly scripture, but definitely derived from scripture.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I, you know, it's been recently, for example.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, right now, I mean, two of my faves still constantly kind of go back is I'm, uh, foster has been really big, Richard Foster, just because I think, again, he's, I understand a lot of his language.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then Rollheiser dude, I read a lot Rollheiser, but that's also because growing up in church, he speaks in a way that speaks to my heart.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And not everyone connects with him.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just read Foster's book on simplicity this summer with Lauren and actually a group of our neighbors on trying to work on this together in a community and then role-hizer.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've obviously mentioned a lot, but it read his book Sacred Fire last winter with also with a community of friends.

[SPEAKER_03]: I remember you were on a trip, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: We were.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I remember.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so I think like going through a spiritual writer who speaks to me and I have a lot of their books.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'll go through multiple.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've recently started reading a book.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I can't remember his name.

[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, I've gone through a bunch.

[SPEAKER_01]: I did a bunch of Henry now and [SPEAKER_03]: If it's a typical morning, it's probably 6 a.m.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's around 6, 6, 15.

[SPEAKER_03]: We'll start and around 7, 15.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's over.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so you got a whole hour.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right there.

[SPEAKER_03]: Usually, and that can be lesser more.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think, you know, 45 minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think around somebody wrote the Luke verse about you.

[SPEAKER_01]: He often wrote from 6, 15 to 7, 15, and spent it in prayer reading and spiritual.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then sometimes it's journaling and processing.

[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of it for me, because of my life, [SPEAKER_03]: the coming day.

[SPEAKER_03]: So it's important for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, before I do mine, yeah, are there any other practices sprinkled throughout the day that you're coming back to prayer, quiet, reflection, or devotional reading, or is it mostly like that morning anchor, and then the day unfolds as most people expect it to unfold with work and family and other things?

[SPEAKER_03]: I'd say once the day gets started, it is hard to anchor back.

[SPEAKER_03]: But throughout the day, I'm constantly praying.

[SPEAKER_03]: I use every sort of before every meeting, before any.

[SPEAKER_03]: I use the meeting as like a trigger to pray.

[SPEAKER_03]: So for example, I usually have very small margins of time before meetings on purpose because I'm usually trying to [SPEAKER_03]: Milk the day for all it's worth to not to be able to be at home with the family.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I'm always in a space of just quick breath prayers.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love breath prayers.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that and I can attest as working on this podcast together.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how much you naturally pray like before we start an episode or as we're thinking about something.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I don't realize your praying because you just like been like you just start into a quick prayer.

[SPEAKER_00]: Which I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can just tell it's natural for you to move in and out of talking to God talking to others, which I think is commendable.

[SPEAKER_01]: And thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Really, I think probably the only way to honor the command of praying without ceasing is to become somebody who does breath prayers and or other natural prayers throughout the day.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're frustrated about this meeting about the heaven.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I just use the moments to trigger prayer in my mind for the fact that everything is better when we invite God into it, everything, again, my experience is could not be more true.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think breath perso at the day.

[SPEAKER_03]: And when I'm in a season of not being exhausted and having a little bit of extra space.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'd say about three times a week, consistently, my goal is every night.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I would all slip out and go on a pair walk, um, I love pair walks, walking end praying or, and we've talked about this again at length, but that's a big rhythm for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: And here's the thing, when I don't do it, I always feel the nudge of the spirit, like, coming out with me.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I love that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's a lot of times where I'm like, I'm too tired of this Netflix show sounds really good.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you know what's crazy?

[SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't shame me for that.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I think there's a moment for sure, like, there's a missing out.

[SPEAKER_03]: I want to highlight it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think that's the most ideal.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I also think there's moments where I'm like, God, can you understand my humanness here?

[SPEAKER_03]: And like, I'm just really tired.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think God's really gracious to me, just where we're at.

[SPEAKER_03]: But that said, I think that those rhythms are like the daily stuff for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes I think also pair prayer with what you enjoy.

[SPEAKER_03]: I am not a chronic cigar smoker, but I do enjoy cigar smits in a while.

[SPEAKER_03]: And do sometimes it's like to just pray and take an hour to go through that cigar.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like my prayer time is how long it takes to get through this thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But wow, I've never, I'm a big fan of tobacco and friends and conversations.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, me too.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I've never used a smoking cigar as a way to pray for an hour.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I'm trying to, it feels like community.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I find, and I do it, you know, [SPEAKER_03]: I try to encourage from, well, obviously in community it's really important.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think there's certain things you shouldn't do alone because I become a dick dividend.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: Probably not good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Put the warning labels on this conversation because these things can be enjoyable.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is not for everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: On the God's Glory, they can also be very addictive, very dangerous.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously so.

[SPEAKER_03]: That said, you run men, you know it.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I would say for me, being able to like, that's a moment like, oh, my Sabbath right before we, I flew out here to Richmond.

[SPEAKER_03]: I knew Sabbath was coming, I knew I was like, I want to, as after everyone's in bed, what feels super restful to me is to sit quietly on the porch to light one of my favorite cigars and to just talk to God about anything that comes up and to just not, you know, not feel pressure to get through anything.

[SPEAKER_03]: That sounds so.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's doing your phone is not with you when you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's demonic to have your phone.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, [SPEAKER_03]: What would happen is exactly to me what would happen to you is you'd be on your phone.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just noting there's like there's a constructive unspoken discipline around this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: It says if you're going to have a cigar or take a prayer walk and enjoy time with God in a conversational manner, it presumes that you're leaving a phone behind.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, which is actually really important to state for any people.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think it, of course, for some of your like, well, my wife might need me and my kids might need me if I'm away.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if you should be fine for an hour, she probably will and it's like truly like an emergency situation say, please, I'm going to keep my phone like there's all these settings on your phone, by the way, like my I have Sabbath mode on my phone five o'clock on Friday.

[SPEAKER_03]: It goes to Sabbath mode the only people that can text me your call me or my wife my kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that means any other call that comes to you no matter how desperate you are will not happen.

[SPEAKER_03]: I will not know it happened.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll also just tell them because obviously when my Lauren is gone.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I want to take a walk or a fair walk around the neighborhood, which I don't do is often to see you, but I love the idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just tell them, hey, I'm walking around the blocks if you need me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Go on around the blocks and find me, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: And that works too, yeah, yeah, that works too.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I would just, you know, put it to sum it up, I think be do what you love and do it with God.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think he loves us to do this things that we love.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that changes over season and time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And for me, it's changed multiple ways and multiple times.

[SPEAKER_03]: One thing also, lastly, I'll say, one thing I love to do, we've talked about this before.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love sauna and cold plunges, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Just love them.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've hold on a physical practice is our next.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've got to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you jumping cataclytes?

[SPEAKER_03]: I just want to highlight this one.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're a little bit of spiritual discipline.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm saying it overlaps, but I'm actually not talking about the physicality part for that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm actually saying one of my favorite things to do is there's these in, in bend where I live.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can actually from October to I think it's around April or May.

[SPEAKER_03]: The river is very cold where we live.

[SPEAKER_03]: Very cold.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's like 32, 33 degrees.

[SPEAKER_03]: And this smart company basically decided to put like proper wood burning sauna as right next to the river and you can do the sonic hole plunge, but you do it in the river.

[SPEAKER_03]: At night, they have a candle lit situation where you can rent your own private little sauna.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you can you go walk down to the river and it's like candle lit on each side so you know where you're at.

[SPEAKER_03]: So one of my favorite things to do is to take that as a prayer time.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a literally just go.

[SPEAKER_03]: And the point is to just enjoy the physicality of it, but the whole time I'm thinking, praying, processing.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think again, that the point is, parent, what's what you love?

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, all right.

[SPEAKER_01]: How about I want to ask you, I want to hear.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think these are good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yen and Yangs here, if you will, because you're in full-time ministry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And equally as demanding as many other jobs.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But your board or your co-workers probably have an issue with you if you weren't spending extended time.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I were.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have maybe like, hey, you're not being spiritually formed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think one of the wonderful things I know this because I was a missionary is it was part of your job.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, to do in the word and prayer, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, some people in ministry listening and saying, I wish that was true, and yeah, you need to make it a part of your job.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think some of the, um, from me, those are the kinds of practices I had when I was a missionary in China.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are, they look really different now in this season of, you know, basically working two jobs as a corporate lawyer running a law firm.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I, and I, if, if, for listeners who don't remember, I run my own practice.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're sitting in the bottom of it right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and having you get to meet some of my co-workers and went to the CrossFit class, which is the physical family.

[SPEAKER_01]: And some of them come to work out.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so, minor just a lot more compressed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just make sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: None of the last take a lot of joy and nonetheless feel they sustain me a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: I take so much comfort in Jesus' words on prayer.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't try to impress people with the long flowery language, just saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: So a couple of things it looks like for a lot of the past five, six years in my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: It has looked like listening to the scriptures.

[SPEAKER_01]: on audio, often I use the dwell app, which I've come to love.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I've come to cherish the idea that most people through history have actually heard the Bible not read, which is kind of fun to unite with that tradition of hearing the scriptures.

[SPEAKER_01]: You hear differently than you read.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it will be my morning routine for many of the hectic younger years of parenting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Would be not looking at my phone in the morning, [SPEAKER_01]: But it just means leaving my phone out of my morning and then on the way to work, I will listen to a dwell meditation or a chapter to the Bible, which feels really short, but it's also neat to dwell, will actually give you your stats, but you could also just think about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: When when you do that every day, it'll say like, hey, in the last month you've spent, you know, three and a half hours listening to the description and you're like, [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's actually pretty cool.

[SPEAKER_01]: That eight to 10 minutes every day matters.

[SPEAKER_01]: It also steeps between the scriptures.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the past year and a half of my life have not looked like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've actually come back, praise God, to a, I love that to a more in-depth morning routine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I've gotten to the age where my kids are reliably sleeping until seven o'clock.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I can get up half an hour before them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do what I love, which is make a really good cup of coffee, like a really good.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, so I don't know, I want to go in depth, but I was going to say people asked last episode, like, can we get the.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, actually, you know what I think when I think someone did send in a question from season one, so we'll try to get to that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'll just get the brief highlights.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: to a five fair and height.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going like, why are you arguing the details 20 to 22 ounces of medium to course, the ground, Ethiopian coffee steeped in the error press for two minutes steeped.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you have to invert it and then press out is a I think better than a pour over.

[SPEAKER_01]: People have a lot of questions about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I won't answer them now.

[SPEAKER_01]: But do what I love because bringing that cup of coffee to my prayer reading time.

[SPEAKER_01]: is a joy.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I sit with a cup of coffee that I just made and I read the Bible or I do spiritual reading.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I sort of alternate, like right now I'm reading through Romans this morning, I read one chapter yesterday, I read one chapter.

[SPEAKER_01]: But a couple months ago, I was reading through the Foster book on San Jose, or I was reading a devotional book by Frederick Beakner, who's one of my favorite authors.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so I'll sort of move like reading somebody who inspires me to think about scripture in God and then reading a book of the Bible or something like that, but my times are still, if you were like, what's normal, it would probably be more like 15 to 20 minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I'm journaling.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, if I'm praying, I'm journaling.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, most often, sure, I pray in the morning by journaling, not by, um, speaking aloud or praying in my head.

[SPEAKER_01]: I do one of my favorite things to do is to try to find a moment to do a breath prayer.

[SPEAKER_01]: So often, this has become so dear to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to have about too much now because it could take up the whole episode, but literally pairing box breathing, a slow inhale, a long hold, a slow exhale, a long hold, moving around this box and then [SPEAKER_01]: pause, I shall not want pause.

[SPEAKER_01]: Doing this on the way to work, the physical and spiritual that's a good blending of spheres.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're calming, you're engaging, you're peristumped at nervous system, you're slowing your heart rate.

[SPEAKER_01]: as you're meditating on scripture and asking you to be true of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a wonderfully embodied way of praying the word.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I probably a couple times a week like on a car ride.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always, this has been so dear to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so short, but like this morning, I woke up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I slept so well last night.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah [SPEAKER_01]: I get all my knees first thing and just thank you Lord so much for the gift of sleep.

[SPEAKER_01]: The gift of sleep in this season of fatherhood is exactly that it's a gift.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like so many of you listeners know there's not enough, there's not enough time to sleep or there's stressors that are keeping you from sleep or there's health issues or there's kids waking up and just to sleep enough, sometimes you should daily bread, sometimes it looks [SPEAKER_01]: I just cherish marking that moment of gratitude to God.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Lord gives sleep to those who loves.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's always a sign of His love and care for you.

[SPEAKER_03]: I can't but note something about Psalm 23 that you, you know, you and I both had said, [SPEAKER_03]: you know, Psalm 20 through.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think finding a passage of scripture that you like, that you that you personally connect with that God speaks to you through, that you get into your bones and constantly go over is such a helpful, amazing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And why I'm saying this and why this matters is because as you do that, it's like that whole meditating and scripture.

[SPEAKER_03]: It becomes richer, fuller, more crazy.

[SPEAKER_03]: My favorite line right now that I'm stuck on truly with Psalm 203 is surely goodness and mercy will follow us all the days of our life.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: But when you understand that word, it's the follow is actually a hunting term and what's really interesting about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like God is hunting.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like hunting to bring you goodness and mercy and good things.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like he is like a greyhound chasing a rabbit.

[SPEAKER_03]: That is good, dude.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of goodness in your life.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had a hold on to that when we come back to practices of joy and gratitude to think about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I started with that God is pounding you to say, I've got a lot of good things for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: But let's do physical disciplines.

[SPEAKER_01]: Love it.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I like your morning routine, your day routine.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think what I like about this, by the way, just to note, is the contrast is so helpful, because hopefully in the diversity of our stories and lives, you find yourself somewhere in the middle or either side and either is fine.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think the point is find where your rhythm is.

[SPEAKER_03]: And here's, this is just us giving permission.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like I wanted to say the same thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're just trying to give a ton of ideas.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you can use not.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and mostly permission like do's don't do net like do something don't do nothing, but do something but but even take these examples to be like it doesn't have to be a lot to be a lot.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's the something is better than nothing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Truly, but I mean, the kingdom though, like you had said, it can be condensed, and again, it's rhythm, and what was the other word, aren't our rules, it's rhythm, not rules.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, Jesus wasn't rigid, but he was rooted.

[SPEAKER_01]: All ours by the way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about physicality.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so physical disciplines.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about exercising and fasting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also want to hear you talk about processing anger because you mentioned that, but let's just do physical first because I [SPEAKER_01]: We talked about framing this season as a season of giving your life away, practicing self-emptying.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that has become so important to me in this season is exercising.

[SPEAKER_01]: I talk about a lot, send the most recent book by the teachers this whole, try to post about it a lot now to keep it in front of you.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not.

[SPEAKER_01]: it's not the sense at all of body image, vanity and need to get myself in shape, I need to keep up, I need to be hitting new PRs or benchmarks.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is first and foremost, and honestly, almost entirely for a [SPEAKER_01]: a daily practice of self-emptying and embracing the anti-fragile nature of life that I know that by going down, I'm going to go up by following this Philippians trajectory that we talked about.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I don't find a place in my day and my exercise usually looks like Monday through Friday, five days a week because I like working it into the work day.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if I'm just, because if I'm just sitting at my computer all day, like I write a lawyer, I talk, but even a whole day is words and even our whole our whole rhythm today, like we got to end by four, because we got a class of four 15.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we're trying.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's built during Richmond now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to work out before, but it's like when we talked about this yesterday when we did it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm working with my mind all day and so getting out of my mind and into my body is just mentally healthy for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lots of my friends do it in the morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: I prefer to do it right before I go home to break the space of work and the space of family to like reset almost.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there are so many things I could talk about, but but the main thing for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: is being tried, being emptied.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not just like getting my heart rate up, it's sort of like exhausting myself to remind myself in body and in spirit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I need to be emptied in order to be full.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's very helpful for me to go home to kids where I know I'm going to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: asked a lot of where I'm going to be tried, where I'm going to be, um, become tired to remind myself that yet this is another form of emptying myself and I just did it and I can do it again and it's good for me.

[SPEAKER_03]: So good for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that that for me is a a spiritual practice.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to suggest that everybody needs to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Crossfit that everybody needs to do five days a week, but I think everybody needs to do something.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have to have your father who needs your physicality.

[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you can't do nothing.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think men that do nothing, even just the just knowing the science about what exercise does for your body mentally, emotionally, spiritually, you are a whole being to ignore your body as to ignore other parts of your spirituality and your formation.

[SPEAKER_03]: And again, it's not legalism and it's not law, but it is life.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: It brings life to you literally physically, but I mean in all the other ways that you can't even calculate.

[SPEAKER_01]: Totally.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this actually goes with the paradigm that we've been talking about, because perhaps in your 20s, even in your early 30s, you might have been exercising or working out for new PRs, new achievements.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're in that get your life together, conquer the world mentality.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I probably squatted the most Oliver squat.

[SPEAKER_01]: I probably deadlifted the most I'll ever deadlift.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're not probably snatched the most Oliver snatch.

[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, squat was 365.

[SPEAKER_01]: The deadlift was 435.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the snatch was 200.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hit each of those once.

[SPEAKER_01]: Pride comes before the most.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're on the down.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I'm not a big dude.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like 510.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're perfect.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're perfect.

[SPEAKER_01]: None of this is impressive.

[SPEAKER_01]: But my point in saying that is, I probably will never do more than that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that I'll hit new PR.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not even the goal, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not doing it to conquer anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing it to be conquered.

[SPEAKER_01]: Give your life away.

[SPEAKER_01]: I hope to be a 78-year-old someday who is power walking around the blocks just trying to get sweaty, doing what he can, not what he can, just doing what he can, knowing that if I look at the world thinking I'm going to conquer it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then I'm probably entering into a place of pride and over desire.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if I'm looking at the world and saying, Lord, let me be humbled.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lord, let me be conquered by things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lord, let me be conquered by love.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, practicing that physically is certainly healthy.

[SPEAKER_03]: Can I give?

[SPEAKER_03]: I want you to talk about fasting.

[SPEAKER_03]: Can I just give maybe like an opposite insight to that?

[SPEAKER_03]: But this is all in the physical, because I think, [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes, and I'm wondering if we could also work in how to deal with anger a little bit because part of me wants to tag onto this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exercising is in some small way a little bit away of metabolizing my frustration metabolizing my anger, but I don't think that's sufficient.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to caution guys from going into the gym to slam stuff around thinking that they need to get out their anger because really you need to Pray through your anger.

[SPEAKER_01]: You need to repent of your anger.

[SPEAKER_01]: You need to be confessing your anger, but there's also a part of me that [SPEAKER_01]: That is helped by beating stuff around in the gym and like just sprinting around the block as we do at our gym.

[SPEAKER_01]: That helps me kind of get out some of my fury and then.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I still need to deal with my anger.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I just want to hear you talk about anger.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, before I do the one, the one thing on the physicality part is if I can be just vulnerable for a second.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think for other men listening that might be hearing this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, I was overweight as a kid, and so exercise became important to me because health, but I also just didn't want to look fat, I mean, like this was just very real.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I grew up in a home where food was comfort, so no one ever thought about the health of food was just like rich food, good food, it was for mental emotional, not physical, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like it was to deal with pain.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so that doesn't, like, no, not a lot of great habits around food growing up.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so eighth grade.

[SPEAKER_03]: I start working out.

[SPEAKER_03]: And honestly, from like eighth grade, tell about 33 like very, I mean, like ran marathon ran all the time exercise gym, like stayed right in my, you know, weight range, but around 32 33 was when a lot of my, like the health stuff in my wife's life, my kids life started to up tick.

[SPEAKER_03]: We had four kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: I put on five pounds.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I'll get that off.

[SPEAKER_03]: That took a long time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Then put on 10 pounds.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I'll get that off.

[SPEAKER_03]: That wasn't happening.

[SPEAKER_03]: And slowly over the course of, like, probably seven, six, seven years, like gained 20 to 25, 30 pounds right on there.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I want to say I'm saying this for a reason because I want to give permission to the guy that's here and you're feeling really depressed about how you look or how you feel in your body Maybe you don't feel as attractive to your wife and you are feeling insecure you're feeling like [SPEAKER_03]: Man, I don't know about something looking me like I'm a slob, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Like these are the thing none of us will say this, but this is what we think this is what a lot of us are thinking and so I just want to say that your weight is not your worth What you weigh what you look like is not your worth who you are matters more At the same time if you work out for vanity or physicality to look a certain way alone, you're going to miss the whole point big time [SPEAKER_03]: And for me, like to be totally transparent, I'm sitting in a spot where I'm like 25 pounds overweight and I'm uncomfortable with my skin right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: I should be on camera all the freaking time drives me nuts.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if I'm being honest, I do not like how I feel or look right now because I have an image of myself at a different space.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm saying all this to say, I know that I'm not alone, but I'm also to to your point.

[SPEAKER_03]: dealing with it.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm in a space where I've, like, I made the decision.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, here's what I will eat.

[SPEAKER_03]: Here's what I won't eat.

[SPEAKER_03]: Here's what I'll do.

[SPEAKER_03]: And putting the rhythms in place to deal with it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now for me, a lot of it came, like, I was getting a little bit older and I had a lot of stress and trauma happen in my life at the same time.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: And those factors, like, I have to be gracious about that because a lot of is like, how could I?

[SPEAKER_03]: And my body, you know, not be such a shape as a woman.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you, your, your story is, is common is actually most people experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: And part of it is actually natural and normal because your body is changing, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, I just want to note.

[SPEAKER_01]: the way that we have to must think about this is not in body image.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but in body as image bearer of God.

[SPEAKER_01]: So body image first body as image.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, body images were thinking about the mirror and we get on these metrics.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't use the way this metric and used to look like this or blah, blah, blah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or you're just hoping, yeah, this is the realm of vanity.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's always gonna lead to shame.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Body as image is saying, [SPEAKER_01]: how can I treat my body so that I can be the image of God, which is love?

[SPEAKER_01]: So rather than looking in the mirror, you're looking through the window of spiritual life and saying, what can I do with it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Am I exercising enough to be loving to my family?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I exercising enough to be healthy for my family, which is totally different.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a wide range of weight that there's a wide range of how you might look.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's much more about love than it is looks one being yes, and that's a great way to say and being comfortable in your own skin.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think if you're not comfortable in your own skin, that's also part of like.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that might be affecting your marriage.

[SPEAKER_03]: And to highlight why I'm saying this is at least right to anger.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, let's go there.

[SPEAKER_03]: And why I'm saying this is because when I feel in healthy and I don't feel good about myself, I am so more prone to anger.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so and and I and I know like, [SPEAKER_03]: for some listening, you're gonna be like, absolutely, I know what you're saying.

[SPEAKER_03]: Others might not be, but what it is is an underlying frustration and disappointment.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm already disappointed about myself or a part of myself.

[SPEAKER_03]: That it's easy to think about and not be able to miss.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's like, and what that does is already starts the stove, so to speak, of any of that's good.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's like simmering it, so you got it like a, you got a nice little foundation of kind of already being annotated.

[SPEAKER_03]: So then far less things are needed to make you go from like zero to a hundred and it's easy to to note to, you know, be aware of some of those things.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it kind of is a frame this a little bit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the arc here we've been talking about is you've probably spent a disproportionate amount of your time in your getting your life together phase struggling with lust and over desire.

[SPEAKER_01]: Only to find that now in your giving a life giving your life away phase you're spending a disproportionate amount of time struggling with anxiety and anger.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you have to be depression and anger.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_01]: But anger and I think a lot of these things actually impact anxiety.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're doing the spiritual discipline so we talked about if you're exercising, we're going to talk about eating.

[SPEAKER_01]: Those are some of the like best natural remedies for anxiety.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anger is its own beast and I think I never saw myself as an angry person, but I've emerged to this stage of life to find that I am pretty angry and need to figure out a deal with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Physical disciplines are not sufficient.

[SPEAKER_01]: alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: So let's just tuck it right in the middle here.

[SPEAKER_01]: How do you do anger?

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's lots of ways.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's important to start with scripture.

[SPEAKER_03]: Be angry and do not sin.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's important to highlight there is a righteous anger that is good.

[SPEAKER_03]: Being a passionate person who is angry about sin and wrong is actually not a sin.

[SPEAKER_03]: like praying that out, talking to God and thinking about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and I think, well, it can play out.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's a righteous anger.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I was walking across the street with my daughter, Scarlett, and this car was not slowing down.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I kind of, you got her out of the way, and she was like right out of the way.

[SPEAKER_03]: But as I was walking the car was slowing down, it was like, he saw us, you just, you could just feel his energy.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I like, like, you're screamed, like, dude, slow down.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, like, as a dad.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, there was an anger.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a right to say.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, that's my daughter.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then she was super embarrassed.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she's like, dad, don't yell at the guy.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then I was like, you're a taste.

[SPEAKER_03]: She was disrespecting me in public.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I'm trying to save your life.

[SPEAKER_03]: What are you talking about?

[SPEAKER_03]: Then we got a huge argument.

[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, that's a whole other depression.

[SPEAKER_03]: But my ego went from righteous to not righteous here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Pretty quick.

[SPEAKER_01]: Day in the life of the day.

[SPEAKER_01]: And two, that's a matter of somebody else.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and they were mad at our kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the best part of the story.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were mad at the situation.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, the parking lot being triggered like, I'll get out by her bad attitude towards me.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so now I'm trying to address her and talk to her and be a father, but also like not doing well because I'm already triggered in angry so I'm not responding well like I want to and she's clapping back to me and then my wife sees this going on and oh like that means now I mean an absolute harder place where she's like what are you doing you're embarrassing yourself and our daughter in front of all of our family what are you you know anyway that's the day and life of me lots of repentance a lot of them sorry I'm really triggered me.

[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, how to deal with that.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think there's a handful of things that I try and I'm not always successful at, but I think I would love to give you these six things really quick and just put them in your day when you get Men use a practice is here.

[SPEAKER_01]: What other?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I think first you need to you need to I mean we've talked a little about this a lot but positive [SPEAKER_03]: Think you need to just take a second and breathe and think like is this something that you need to blow up about if you can just pause For even five seconds before you say something it is amazing how sometimes I can just change the trajectory So first just think talk like think about what is this what is this situation is my kid throwing that thing that big of a deal is the way they responded that bad of a thing [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes it's just like, you know, there's really need your reactions, so that that's a different thing that you need to, if you're already finding yourself responding from a place of procedural memory, which we can talk about later, and it's just happened and all of the sudden you responded, like, do your best to think.

[SPEAKER_03]: If you can, I would encourage you get a loan for a moment, take a walk, have a moment to just like get out of the situation if you can.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is this distinct from the pausing to think?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think think and then like separate.

[SPEAKER_03]: So one thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: One thing like just pause.

[SPEAKER_03]: Two separate.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, separate.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: To take a walk and the reason I say is because taking a second to get out of the situation just can hopefully calm your nervous system.

[SPEAKER_03]: Take a second to just really calm yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: Walking for me and for many is re-regulating the right left.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, this is why this is part of why [SPEAKER_01]: you've got to move your body to move your mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you're staying in the kitchen where you're about to have a fight and just thinking [SPEAKER_01]: I'll think my way out of this one.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, almost certainly you won't.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if you say, let me, let me take a quick walk to the front porch, breathe, pray, walk back in.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, EMDR is a type of therapy, very effective, right brain left brain stuff.

[SPEAKER_03]: And when you walk, it mimics EMDR, the idea of triggering your right brain and your left brain with the rhythmic steps.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it causes your brain to actually talk, like each side to talk to each other more.

[SPEAKER_03]: So if you're on one side of the other, it re-regulates.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is part of honoring God and your body, [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so that you don't send in your anger.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, all right keep going.

[SPEAKER_03]: And this is not always ideal by the way because this is hard to do some times, but I think you think you walk After that happens take responsibility if you have Responded in anger the best thing you can do is take Responsibility and repair that's so good [SPEAKER_03]: apologize for the specific offense, say the thing you did, tell, apologize for it.

[SPEAKER_03]: So take responsibility.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's huge because if not, your family can believe that you think it's okay and that you think this is normal and that you think.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like you said, I think two, three episodes ago, if we don't take responsibility, then our kids will, then they feel like they should be blamed for things they shouldn't be blamed for.

[SPEAKER_03]: The narrative void.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's massive for so many.

[SPEAKER_03]: The next one is take help or get help and that can look like, hey, honey, I need your help with the kids because I'm like fried right now and I'm not doing well.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not responding.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like having a, having a tag team moment, a partnership when you're married to parenting, we're like, hey, can you take this?

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not doing well.

[SPEAKER_03]: And help might look like that or it might look like, hey, I've got a deeper issue.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I need to do what you need to get help and you need to get help, you need to go to therapy, you need to be honest about these moments with yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can I say really quick, um, um, one.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really like, uh, learning.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think do well at this.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of things we don't do well at, but, um, [SPEAKER_01]: Saying hey, do you need a minute like let me just take the kids because you seem like you know I always know that if I ask for that, she'll graciously say yes instead of being like it's an honourable Good you you need to get away.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm stuck here with them again She'll always be like yeah, no, please yeah, and likewise I'll often try to anticipate a I think you're starting to pop off [SPEAKER_01]: You want me to finish here?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just go take a walk or something like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Having that dynamic in your marriage, cultivating it through practice is helpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then too, I often, it's not unusual to get a text or send a text to a close group of guy friends that I have that says, like, I'm really struggling this evening.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just like angry at my family for no good reason.

[SPEAKER_01]: We all pray for me right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that quick real-time method of requesting help.

[SPEAKER_01]: One does two things people are actually praying for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Two, you're just admitting what a normal night in your life looks like, and I think it's very helpful to just put it in the light and say, I'm just struggling with anger this season.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, can somebody help me and also can you friends know that this is true.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so much better that because how else do you ask for help your friends don't see you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when you're grumpy around your family, you're always pretending that you're nice when you're out in public with your family.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, as you broke yelling at a parking lot, I don't pretend.

[SPEAKER_03]: I've done doing that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't pretend any longer.

[SPEAKER_03]: But ask for help.

[SPEAKER_03]: I embarrass my family, I guess, and I've been told that in real time.

[SPEAKER_03]: I do.

[SPEAKER_03]: I in general have good manners.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just was I was completely what in that moment upon reflection.

[SPEAKER_03]: I immediately was in fighter flight, which, because of the situation, and then it only took one moment of my daughter instead of being thank you dad to being like really just like, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Her like now, not only was I like triggered by that, now I'm in a public embarrassment to you.

[SPEAKER_03]: That was like, it just triggered stuff in me.

[SPEAKER_03]: And once that happens, this is my own story in journey, like I have to learn when that happens, what's I get flooded is the right word, I've flooded with emotions and different feelings that come from a lot of it from childhood and I have to like practice certain things to get out of that as quickly as I can, but dude, it can happen with me like a hairpin, it can turn.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, a quick note, we shouldn't do all of this because it's a bigger topic, but righteous anger is unsettling to people around it and they're often quick to criticize it or try to escape it or put it somewhere that's comfortable for them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And your righteous anger is a dad saying, [SPEAKER_01]: watch out you know you're gonna hurt my daughter or you know be careful, you know, there might be some righteous anger there That's good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's very uncomfortable for other people because we are actually pretty uncomfortable with God's righteous anger, too Oh, we're quick to try to explain it away like why don't really mean [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just see.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to get too hung up on this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's move on.

[SPEAKER_03]: What's the fifth one is pray just like after you've getting help.

[SPEAKER_03]: Just remember you can bring this to God and prayer.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're going to see themes meant to all this whole thing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's a brew rhythm to talk about God but ask God to help you with your anger like in a very practical way and lastly receive grace.

[SPEAKER_03]: your anger, where it comes from, how it plays out, God knows it, and he wants to give you the help practically to not only overcome anger, but at the very same time, you have to receive the grace.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's hard to pray for a problem you don't think you have.

[SPEAKER_03]: So if you don't think that your anger is that much of a problem, you're not going to be asking God about it and you're not going to be asking for grace for it, but then we need grace.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so if you know that this is a problem where maybe you're denying that it's a problem like begin to admit it and receive grace for it, be humble about it.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not wrong to struggle with anger.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's wrong to be ignorant about struggling with anger.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's really helpful.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the main thing is that because of all that we've talked about, there's a lot of things in our life that can that can be the very natural byproduct of where we're at.

[SPEAKER_03]: Giving your life ways hard and I think sometimes we're mad about it in our flesh and in our honesty.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't always want to die.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't always want to give up another night.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't always want it to be about how can I give my life away.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think here's the perfect place to go into the last part of the physical.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, one's fasting because there are spiritual practices like [SPEAKER_01]: lament and fasting, where you're sort of encouraged to move into that space of lack and frustration in the presence of God.

[SPEAKER_01]: When I think about anger, I think more about lament, like do you have the courage and the practice to get mad in the presence of God?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like the [SPEAKER_01]: Fasting is a little more, maybe a little less anger and a little more taking your lack there.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for me, the practice of fasting is so helpful for the season of giving your life away because it brings me into the embodiment of difficulty frustration and just reminds me in a visceral way that there's no place to look for comfort.

[SPEAKER_01]: um, except to the father.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so practically what this looks like for me is usually trying to fast once a month.

[SPEAKER_01]: And over the year, I probably average that.

[SPEAKER_03]: How long is your fast?

[SPEAKER_01]: Is usually just a day?

[SPEAKER_01]: And what does that look like?

[SPEAKER_01]: When do you stop when do you start?

[SPEAKER_01]: So my most [SPEAKER_01]: 24 hours and either sundown to sundown.

[SPEAKER_01]: If it's a little more complicated and I need an easier version, it's sundown to sundown, meaning I'll probably eat dinner before sundown.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I won't eat again until the next sundown, but that does mean I get to eat dinner after sundown the next day.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm basically just missing two meals.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a good starter, but I mean, I think it's a very tangible way to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But my favorite broke is to do just true 24 hours waking to sleeping.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't eat.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's actually, if you think about it, actually, more than 24 hours.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's true.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, usually wake up and I like that because I'm immediately faced with the threat.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I don't get to eat away the pain today.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't get to eat my I don't get the the space to snack or drink or eat myself out of frustration and comfort that it brings and I realize very quickly within the first 10 minutes of the day that I spend most of my life looking forward to the next thing that I can consume.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I have to who took your face a day like just stared on the barrel of it and think [SPEAKER_01]: there's I don't get a place to run away to that and now just raw dog in the day yeah yeah it is but now coffee will get me through the morning yeah it's done and I rarely fast without coffee so yeah because you're not a mania because I'm in the same person though I actually I think he's great if I honestly don't I always want to and I simply haven't had the courage now I'm putting on a record and I'm positive to do it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't either occurred in a fast, like with just water.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I usually do have coffee.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that will sort of give me through the morning.

[SPEAKER_01]: But what the part that I actually do really like about fasting, normally at lunch, doing a prayer walk, I often just really enjoy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I find, man, I struggle to take a lunch break anyway.

[SPEAKER_01]: I typically, you know, I struggle just to not work at my desk.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's relatively unhealthy practice.

[SPEAKER_01]: But taking a walk around the block here in downtown Richmond, where you are, [SPEAKER_01]: It's just beautiful and I walk and pray often just do the Lord's fair over and over and over.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe like do it do a line of it and then pray on the theme of that line.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes or two or three minutes like yes or give us our daily bread and then I pray for what I need or deliver me from evil and pray for spiritual warfare in my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, but the evening gets really hard, that's where, you know, helping serve the kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm usually sitting down at the table with family, just not eating.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I get to the point where I'm just hungry, I'm hurting in my body, I'm annoyed.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the end of the day as the place where I'm really finding, honestly, the desperation that I'm looking for, which is no one can solve this but God, and a prayer walk in the evening, these are some of my sweetest prayer walks after the kids go to bed.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I might take a cup of tea like and walk around the neighborhood and those are if I were to say where are the richest prayer times in my life in the past couple years, it's going to be the end of a day fasting where I'm walking in the dark.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I've never actually thought about that or set it out loud, but I do think there's probably my richest moments of course.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you wrestle with going to bed hungry.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a beautiful thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like the it's a beautiful practice.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Lord gives us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Jesus, remember, I always remember my people this, he says, when you fast, that it it it it it it it it it it it it it it.

[SPEAKER_01]: He assumes his followers are fasting.

[SPEAKER_03]: He assumes this is a practice in your life.

[SPEAKER_03]: There was three practices of early Jesus followers that we don't talk about that were a given and this is why they're not over mentioned.

[SPEAKER_03]: Fasting prayer and giving.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, generosity.

[SPEAKER_03]: prayer and fasting.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's why they're not talked about at Nazium, because there was an assumption built into this is of course, if you're a Jesus father, this is built in the rhythm of life.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the Jewish culture fast two times a week, every week, 24 hours, sundown, a sundown, every single week.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's still a part of Orthodox Jewish practice.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's really important [SPEAKER_03]: This is so important, and then we're going to be, we'll be done with the last point in a second.

[SPEAKER_03]: But because we got to move the prices of joy and be stingy and be stingy and be stingy and be stingy.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, but the, but all to say that it is a very, it is the most tangible practice to give your life away.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like in the sense of it is because you're just literally like you're not inputting you're just giving and you still have to give without the input and in the sense of food and I think it's a it's a beautiful gift I don't have as much of a rhythm as like once a month, but I would say in general I'm probably I'll go through seasons of fast and so and in the 24 hours what I love the most sundown sundown sundown I do like the idea of just picking one day a month though I'm going to try that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's been a good way for me to make it pretty regular through the year that even though during lents, I'm usually like leaning into fasting a lot more, or doing a time of crisis, maybe sure I'm fasting with a friend, but I would just say before we move on to the next one, yeah, this might be helpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'd like to say your father who needs your fasting.

[SPEAKER_01]: your father who needs your fasting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't often sort of put this on the first level of things that father's need to be doing, but I honestly, so important.

[SPEAKER_01]: Can't think of a practice that could be more useful to this season of giving your life away than regularly practicing denying yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Practicing, practicing, entering into pain and being patient with it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I think fathers fast, but they don't do it for themselves as much as they do it for being able to give their life away.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: When you're fasting, you're also, this is the other part that's really important to highlight.

[SPEAKER_03]: When we fast, whether we like this designer framework or not, [SPEAKER_03]: it allows us to grab God's ear and even deeper way.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like I think God's, I mean, biblically we know this, like there's a power and fasting because he designed it that way.

[SPEAKER_03]: And when we decide to step out of our situation, I mean, how many people are healed through prayer and fasting?

[SPEAKER_03]: Lots, like if you're in a crisis, what do people often do?

[SPEAKER_03]: They stop, they see counsel, they pray, they fast, fasting is a sign of desperation, if you're desperate.

[SPEAKER_03]: Start with fasting.

[SPEAKER_03]: And again, it doesn't have to be a lot to do a lot once a month, you know, like it's amazing how that can happen.

[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, okay, that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we just can't help.

[SPEAKER_01]: We want to land this plane last, like we last 10 minutes of this episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: What's also so fascinating about Jesus's life is that people think that he is eating too much.

[SPEAKER_01]: And drinking too much.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and not fasting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why don't your followers fast and Jesus is like because the bride groom is here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like yeah, wait, there's this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this is the probably the thing that would really make us most uncomfortable about Jesus's life was not the way he retreated and prayed was not the way he fasted.

[SPEAKER_01]: We sort of assumed that those in our part of the spiritual life.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the way that he celebrated the way that he ate with people.

[SPEAKER_01]: is unsettling because he seemed to think that there was a lot more joy in life, a lot more relationship to be found than most of us do at this stage of our life where we think our life is hard, life sucks, it's difficult to make ground down, I got to teach my kids keep their chin up and work on this, but I think your father who needs your joy, your father who needs your feasting, because your heavenly father has great joy and throws a party [SPEAKER_01]: about the whole thing of you coming back in the salvation narrative and this whole story ends at a wedding visit to the lamb.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I just think of two practices, Brooke.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think of dating our wives as like a practice of re-engaging the romance that eating together, seeking her out as such an important practice for this stage of life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And feasting with friends [SPEAKER_01]: not it's not all difficulty we need to learn to laugh to have joy.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like we talked about either of those or both of those.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think let me just start.

[SPEAKER_03]: I can briefly say the two things on dating or wife.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm in a season where this is really hard.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like we're in a hard season and I don't mean hard, merely we've been working through things, but [SPEAKER_03]: Practically it has become very hard to prioritize each other because of some of the logistics of our life and we're noting that we're saying hey, we don't we don't love this this is not what we would normally want to do.

[SPEAKER_03]: and I'm saying this to both be honest because my wife will listen to this.

[SPEAKER_03]: She would have had a lot of this shit.

[SPEAKER_03]: She would be like, be honest with her.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to listen to this.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we have to actually tell the truth.

[SPEAKER_03]: Which by the way, we would tell the truth anyway.

[SPEAKER_03]: But it kind of sounds like they're what, how you said it, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: But because I'm actually going the extra step to be clear, is what I'm trying to, I'm not going to lie, but I'm being more clear than maybe I need to be because I want my wife to know.

[SPEAKER_03]: That, and even I've told you this, like I want in this really complex season to know how to pursue you and what you want and what you need, and I don't know how, I don't like I'm trying, but there's a lot of stuff that is in the way, and it's not anger or attention in us per se, it's a lot of life stuff that [SPEAKER_03]: plays into our marriage and ways in on our marriage.

[SPEAKER_03]: Our kids health, her health.

[SPEAKER_03]: And for us, I mean, like, I got a text last night.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is so funny.

[SPEAKER_03]: She'll be okay with that show this, but she has a lot of health stuff and she has to get an MRI this week when I get back.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so this is how we're playing this right.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is how funny our life is right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: She, she didn't think she was claustrophobic at all until she had her first MRI and she's like, how to panic attack.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, this is insane.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's like, [SPEAKER_03]: I can't believe I can't beat this mentally, but like I can't go in this tube without some sort of medication help me calm down.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I have to driver, you know, she can't ever own herself.

[SPEAKER_03]: Although my son does drive now and he could too, so that's really great.

[SPEAKER_03]: But she literally text me, she's like, hey, do you want to go on an MRI date on Saturday?

[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, [SPEAKER_03]: I don't, you know, my verse, I was like, his sex involved.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, what if we're being honest?

[SPEAKER_01]: I have so many questions.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I did too.

[SPEAKER_03]: I was like, is this, like, I don't know what this means?

[SPEAKER_03]: So I was laughing.

[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I just kind of had to chuckle a little bit.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it was sad and funny because like, at the same time, we're going to go to an MRI and then we're going to go to breakfast.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's going to be our date.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's, it's so, I mean, even talking in real time, it's so complex.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is a great picture of what I mean when I say date your wife in this season, because I'm not talking about [SPEAKER_01]: a week in trip to Paris.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not talking about a white cloth Italian dinner where you just talk about how successful and great everything is.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about finding beauty amidst the ruins, which is like saying, yeah, we got to go to M&R.

[SPEAKER_01]: I, but I'm going to get coffee after one.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like let's.

[SPEAKER_01]: find each other relentlessly pursued joy even in the sorrows and beauty amidst the ruins because we know that God's blessing is relentlessly pursuing us.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so good.

[SPEAKER_03]: So I think maybe just to some [SPEAKER_03]: I, man, if you're listening, I am actively trying to grow in this and it's changed.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think it's also maybe to encourage when you're giving your life away.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's important to realize that how you pursue your life and what she needs and what your marriage needs.

[SPEAKER_03]: Change is very rapidly sometimes, very slowly sometimes.

[SPEAKER_03]: For us, it's changed in ways where I am still trying to find my footing with how to best meet her where she's at.

[SPEAKER_03]: She's in a lot of pain a lot of the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And she's not always physically, you know, even able to just move freely as a human to go on a walk or just very simple things and of course that impacts are intimacy and of course that impacts are when someone's intended to pin do you think you're having like cool conversations you think you're having like really in depth conversations you're just like how can I make sure you don't feel like you're going to die right and [SPEAKER_03]: And that's just, so I find it to be completely transparent, very complex right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: And my hearts there, it's warmed to her, we're warmed to each other.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we're committed and I think the main thing that we made the decision of probably, we already had this decision, but I think it's important to re-up about five years ago is we just, I just said, [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what's going to happen in our life.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what's going to happen in our health.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what's going to fall apart.

[SPEAKER_03]: I am fully, I've been committed to you.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I am recommitting myself to let you know that I'm never going anywhere.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not worth it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love you too much.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love the kids too much.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love all this.

[SPEAKER_03]: But there are times when I want to run away because it's so hard.

[SPEAKER_03]: Not because I don't love you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Not because I don't love the kids.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that honesty and vulnerability in transparency from myself to her helped her easily reciprocate.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, hmm.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I'm in this too, like I'm not going anywhere ever.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, and I, and I, and I, and I would just want to say, Father, I know that your wife probably like knows that.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm, I know when I was really clear and reassured her of the vows that I already committed to her, committed to her.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Something happened in our marriage, like in the sense of like, yeah, well, I don't know how bad the day is.

[SPEAKER_03]: Today's not a great day, but yep, we're with each other.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we're just going to get this bad day.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's not great.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not what I would love.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think finding ways to say your vows over and over like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what you're talking about are the marriage vows and sickness or health, which are for poor for better for worse.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, I love move on, Rouge.

[SPEAKER_01]: Have we talked about this?

[SPEAKER_03]: I just want to highlight how great that phrase is coming out of your mouth.

[SPEAKER_03]: They love me.

[SPEAKER_01]: How much may the song at the end of that movie come what may I will love you to my diary.

[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think I've ever seen that movie.

[SPEAKER_01]: What?

[SPEAKER_03]: I knew I should have said that.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wait, it looks like I know what I'm doing tonight with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, yeah, we're having a date tonight, we're having a date tonight.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would honestly get teary if I'd really go into it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the way that I think about date night.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is totally along those lines.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for us, it's always Wednesday night and we're just trying to carve out some space to either talk or maybe go out for a drink or maybe just have dessert at the house.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe just sit on the back porch and talk.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes like maybe once every six weeks or two months, it's like actually a nice date out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I think of it as practicing the covenant, which is kind of like what you were just sharing is almost renewing your vows in the small casual but iterative ways of saying even in this sickness, I will love you and I'll never leave you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or even in this fight we're having, you want to carve out an hour to talk about it tonight, which is probably not going to be a great night to have sex because we're going to hash out a fight we've been having.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you're making space to say in the worst part like for the better or for worse I will love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: What does that look like it means coming to find you again coming to find you and not Not staying the ships in the night that are always just passing in the dark, but saying in this week of chaos and errands and work and stress and exhaustion, I'm going to try to find you and then by the way, I also want to be found, would you come find me but [SPEAKER_01]: in our paradigm of thinking, you know, some people would just fall off early and they're like, you know, I'm not even going to grow up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to leave my family.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't settle down.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, you see that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's one way to eject.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see more people getting stuck in the cult of sack of bitterness and isolation of the city.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: The practice of finding your wife like that, of date night, of saying, let's have coffee after the MRI, or let's talk even tonight in the middle of a big fight.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is the way that you relentlessly turn and say, I'm not going to stay in this called a sack.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to find you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to open up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to talk.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is a radical.

[SPEAKER_01]: practice of joy, because you're trying to fight for love.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you're horror, you're trying to fight for love, when you're more soft, you're trying to fight for love, when you are in sickness and not in health, but you're fighting, you're fighting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And joy is a fight.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: It takes world to get there.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just wanted to say, we're going to have an episode this season where we specifically talk about sex and sex [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm avoiding that part of the day.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I just want to put a pin in in this and maybe just a T's slash idea to just remember.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm saying this.

[SPEAKER_03]: I love so you know, I can remember, but it is to say that it is far easier to do what you just said about the cult of sack of bitterness and resentment and go well.

[SPEAKER_03]: This is going to be my marriage.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm only ever going to be so close to my wife.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to deal with my physical, my sexual needs outside of this fully.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because it's much easier for me to look at porn, much easier for me to just masturbate, much easier for me to just maybe you have a, you know, a relationship outside of your marriage.

[SPEAKER_03]: God forbid.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you say to yourself, what's much easier to just have this here, and to be fair, it is more challenging, at least initially and emotional.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's harder to take the downward path at first at first.

[SPEAKER_03]: But that life that you're signing up for that call to take you're talking about is one of sadness destruction and pain and it is not life and it is a life from the enemy if you think that's in the good life.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so it's just to admit that is, that's the easy way and I think what we're talking about again is life and life flourishing and that takes a certain level of dying to yourself and getting the help and if you can't, you know, if you haven't heard us say it a million times already [SPEAKER_03]: your father who needs you to show up to these things.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now, you don't have to have all these things right now today.

[SPEAKER_03]: But again, with the menu word, we're trying to give you a menu of things that you can decide to work on.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's not going to be all of them at once.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, you don't go to a restaurant order the whole menu.

[SPEAKER_03]: But you go to that restaurant, you know, maybe once a week and you order a different dish and you start, you go through it.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's the idea here and I don't want to overwhelm anybody, but I also want to be like super thorough to say, like this is so beautiful and so complex and so hard and take it from two honest guys right now with their wives listening, who are just saying like this is this is complex.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're in it every day with you and we're trying to date our wives and sometimes you do that really well and sometimes we don't and [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that the last thing you had there and I think this is the gratitude space.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think this is a good closer for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: four weeks with friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think as a practice of recapturing joy and gratitude, fighting for happiness and a season where you're giving your life away.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just quick picture from the last week of my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our friends and I were texting incessantly over the past week about how mad we all were about our work in different ways.

[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, just each of us had our own problems and we were actually bonding over, I'm so mad.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so frustrated.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_01]: People are asking too much of me and they're not helping me and all this stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what we did at the end of the week is we actually got together and we were happy and happy to be celebrating Somai's birthday.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we, everybody got babysitters and we went out to a great Italian dinner here in Richmond and one of our favorite restaurants at us.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we ate a ton, we had great drinks, and we laughed, like we laughed, we laughed and talked so hard that at the end of the night the waiter came over and he was like, where are you all going next because I want to call them and warn them that you're coming.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's a good friendship.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was so good.

[SPEAKER_01]: And everybody went home with a full heart and a full stomach.

[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that is kingdom stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: To me, that is kingdom stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: We are in a season of giving our life away, but it's because we are trying to lean into that beauty of Christ's life where he went through suffering in order to come out and exaltation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And our story doesn't end.

[SPEAKER_01]: and sacrifice.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our story doesn't end in fasting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Our story doesn't end in this strenuous exhaustion of the workout season.

[SPEAKER_01]: It ends in her health, wholeness, holiness, and feasting, and laughing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we must punctuate our life with that kind of beauty if we're going to be people of the kingdom.

[SPEAKER_01]: very well said.

[SPEAKER_03]: So, these are practices.

[SPEAKER_03]: Try some forgiving your life away.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we've talked about getting your life together, giving you life away.

[SPEAKER_03]: And next, we want to talk about giving your death away.

[SPEAKER_03]: And what does it look like to have legacy and a lot of practicality on that?

[SPEAKER_03]: do this with a group of friends guys like get a group around talk to your buddies about this water spiritual disciplines that are helpful for you which ones do you want to try maybe keep each other to check in on and and and I would do that what are the physical disciplines where you out with all that so wherever you got take some of this stuff and we'll see you on the next episode see you next time