[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the intentional fatherhood podcast where we give you a strong biblical framework and lots of practical ideas on how to live intentionally as a father and a husband.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Brooke Moser and I'm Justin Whitmore Early and we're your host to guide you through the many roles and challenges that God is calling you to to live intentionally as a father.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're following a visual framework that you can check out at intentionalfatherhood.org and it's gonna help you break down fatherhood into eight columns.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in each one, we're going to talk about how God made you to be a father and what practical habits you can start trying today in order to live intentionally into that home.

[SPEAKER_00]: So come along with us as we follow Jesus on this journey towards being more intentional fathers.

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to the International Fatherhood podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have fun around here.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have fun around here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm liking it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We laugh a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is actually our final episode of this season and really have enjoyed these these different conversations.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I feel just in like I just told you this, you make me a better a better father.

[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: These conversations have sharpened me in a new way.

[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've really enjoyed the time to get to know you and talking in and out of these podcasts.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we've been learning a lot about each other as we've talked on them, but also hanging out in and around them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just heard you leave a voice memo for one of your family members.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll just leave it at that that was honestly a master class in speaking intentionally to a family member member.

[SPEAKER_00]: So [SPEAKER_00]: I'm I'm being like edified just by being around you and I'm hoping honestly I'm hoping that is also true for our listeners that just in hearing all these conversations They're just in in some way over hearing two fathers talking about the the beauties and the difficulties of being a good father and hopefully taking yes in the Lord's grace something away to go be a little bit more intentional about [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it is tricky.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, throws of it is what we're like in this with you guys.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so if you have listened to every episode, and you've made it to this one, thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is incredibly kind.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we've asked you in every other one, but we'll ask you again, if you could write, subscribe, or even leave a comment, whether that's on Spotify, Apple, music, Google Play, even YouTube.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's very helpful for us just being able to help more fathers.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It would be very helpful if you want to say thank you that is one way to say thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And just remember if you have any questions from these episodes send a one minute voice memo with your name where you're from to hello at intentional fatherhood.org.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll grab that email and hopefully be able to respond to your question.

[SPEAKER_02]: in the future.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, excited to grab those, but today or final episode, you know, we've been talking about these different anchor points, these tension points, fatherhood is in the intersection of so many different roles.

[SPEAKER_02]: We want to kind of cap our time off today with a really important topic, which I will let the master, Justin, share.

[SPEAKER_00]: fatherhood needs you to find meaning.

[SPEAKER_00]: Your fatherhood needs you to find meaning.

[SPEAKER_00]: And by meaning is what we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is kind of our lift off episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: This episode eight.

[SPEAKER_00]: So last one we're doing this season.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But this is to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is a lift off.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we picked it like this on purpose because [SPEAKER_00]: You can substitute all kinds of words here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Your fatherhood needs you to find art, it needs you to find beauty, it needs you to find hobby, it needs you to find meaning.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is perhaps not what you might expect a typical podcast on fatherhood to talk about.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, a lot of this has been talking about the grind, the difficulties, what you need to do, how you need to be called to do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there, I think, is in a really important core of all of us that longs to make meaning of the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that longs to find beauty in the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is far more masculine than our culture might admit.

[SPEAKER_00]: that we as men need to find things that light us up from inside out and say, I love being human.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love being a dad.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love being a husband.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love being a human being that God made me to be because you found something in the world that lights you up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there's there's two sides of this to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like one, [SPEAKER_00]: What I just said, period, that's the first side.

[SPEAKER_00]: As in, you were created by God to enjoy the creation that he made you to play in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I heard, we actually bonded over a book recently that you said was so good and then I recently read, it was Sacred Fire.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, by Ronald Rollheiser.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ronald Rollheiser.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the themes that just struck me in that book was this consistent theme of gratitude of figuring out how to be grateful for the life that you've given despite all the difficulties of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things he said that I'll never forget, and I just love this, was the thing that you do with gratitude, one of the best ways to express it, is to just enjoy your life.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was so profoundly moved by that because if I think about my children, when I give them a gift, my favorite thing is not that they necessarily turn around and say, oh, thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's meaningful.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I want them to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: My favorite thing is to watch them enjoy it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: To just go play, jump on that trampoline.

[SPEAKER_00]: I gave them or swing the bat that I gave them or whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've talked over and over in this podcast series about, you know, to be fathers of children, we need to learn first to be children of the father and one of the real aspects of just being a human being.

[SPEAKER_00]: is to enjoy the gift of life that God gave you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Figure, like just use it, just enjoy it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that this is the realm of hobby of meaning.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've said, what, what in the world is it for you?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it music?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it poetry?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it travel?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it fishing?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it playing sports?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it pickup soccer?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it working out?

[SPEAKER_00]: Something where you're where you're like, I feel like an image bearer when I do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel the love of being human when I do this and just do it because that is part one of this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think just to enjoy your life.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a way of saying thank you to God.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's also a part two, which is we're calling it your fatherhood needs you to find meaning because your wife and your kids need to see you lit up by joy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they need to see like oh my dad was somebody who loved baseball or my dad was somebody who loved watching an NFL or who he loved sneakers he loved working at whatever it was they need to see that like you're you're a human yes and you have things that you love and so I think some of this episode is going to be asking each other questions and finger what is that for you?

[SPEAKER_00]: How did you find it?

[SPEAKER_00]: And how do you work on the discipline of doing something that you just love for the joy of doing it when fatherhood asks so much else of you?

[SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, do I permission to listen to an album tonight?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I should be cleaning the kitchen.

[SPEAKER_00]: I should be attending for my wife.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't talk about like, how do you balance that?

[SPEAKER_00]: What is it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, can I just ask?

[SPEAKER_00]: What is that for you?

[SPEAKER_00]: Where do you find meaning and joy and hobby in life?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean this is I probably find myself at the intersection of I would imagine many folks listening which is that [SPEAKER_02]: time is very constricted.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I feel to go do something just for myself that's just for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: It takes me a while to be okay with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I'll just say a couple things.

[SPEAKER_02]: Deep rich conversation are something that brings me joy.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is weird thing like even right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's a part of me, like this is part of something that brings real meaning to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like having thoughtful conversations about things that really matter that change not only me, but hopefully others.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then also, you know, there's just deep meaningful things that bring me new perspective and understand that brings meaning.

[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that I get to speak, like I get to travel to speak.

[SPEAKER_02]: That brings meaning.

[SPEAKER_02]: I get to connect with people that would dare want to just sit and like hear anything that I would want to say about a topic like so humbling, so honoring, to be able to like have and sounds like almost too lofty in the sense of it's not as earthy as maybe like working out.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the fact that I get to have had hard experiences in my life and that I get to hopefully in different mediums help other people.

[SPEAKER_02]: not experience those same pains or maybe just know that there's hope in them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, there is a meaning that comes for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's not as earthy as a hobby, like I said.

[SPEAKER_02]: But there's deep meaning to that writing brings me deep meaning, whether it's writing a teaching or whether I'm getting into writing now and different things.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a new thing we just had just wrote that I can't say anything about right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, there's, it brings me life to be able to think deeply.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we actually share some of this and I won't take your thunder.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thinking that way, writing those things down, working on them, there's a life that comes.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that's maybe like the deeper, higher thing and the gift that I just feel got as grace to me with is the fact that some of my work and some of my meaning overlap.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was going to say everything that you just mentioned are probably [SPEAKER_00]: true falls I'm hearing you right there areas where things that you love actually do it overlap with things your work asks of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, which is a gift which is a categorical gift and I need to say that I know and I you know even in saying that I don't want to create a false frustration or a frustration for people and think well I can't have that like that's not the point the point is really just to say like [SPEAKER_02]: I have, I wasn't like shooting for that goal.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really, but I've been very prayerful about my vocation and have said, right, we'll do different things and I'm really grateful that God has been gracious and, and then we've made decisions based upon where we've thought he's leading to take it to the spot.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but is there anything that you just love doing?

[SPEAKER_00]: It could be little.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, go.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is not productive necessarily for your family or for work.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, okay, I don't know how to make this sound good, but I just love going off.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like, sure, I mean, there's a couple of things that hit that category.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love, well, I'd see one very earthy thing is there's some workout classes that I go to and I like, and they push me hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I don't love them, but I really love what they do for my life.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I've learned to think I really enjoy it.

[SPEAKER_02]: That said, though, there's nothing.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's actually not even a good example, because that does bring some benefit, because we talked about it in the body episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm more regulated.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I would say some of the extremes, like I said, like going out and spending money on coal plunge and sonic, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's a cost of money and time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just love that experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love, like not only what it does in my physical body, but it's usually a state of prayer, just for effectiveness.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's no real tangible benefit to my family.

[SPEAKER_02]: It usually costs money, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: That's just something I love.

[SPEAKER_02]: I usually try to do that with a friend to have sort of, you know, connection conversation.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think playing music, like, there's really no benefit to my family when I sit down and just like, I've been thinking about this beat for a long time, literally, banging out.

[SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, like, yeah, there's a little smile that comes by my mind, like, it's fun to, like, [SPEAKER_02]: think it's cool because when I in those moments as an example, that's a habit that or it was a hobby, excuse me, that became like so muscle memory that it lives in my brain.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's so funny how I can just sit down and like I don't even have to like [SPEAKER_02]: know how to feel it anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just if it's in my brain, I can play it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a very weird, you know, thing, but it uses a different part of my brain that does seem to just like bring a life in a way that none of the other things that I do fully bring it in the same way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Again, there's some earthy examples, there's some maybe bigger examples or more meaningful ones, but I think these these little things matter, these big things matter and I will just say when when my work didn't have as much meaning or when what I had to spend a lot of time doing didn't have a lot of meaning, I deep down, let's ask Elizabeth, man.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was an unrest in me.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're not who you're meant to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not who you're thinking.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to spill out on your family.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can ask Elizabeth over and over like this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am so happy he is doing what he is made to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, but before and this is where this, you know, a lot of this content comes from before there was an unrest in me where I was like maybe we should move to Los Angeles because I think maybe we're supposed to help lead that church and go plant from a church and like so we moved to Los Angeles like and I moved my family like outside of our home and all these situations.

[SPEAKER_02]: trying to figure out what the meaning in my work, what?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because you were not at rest.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I was there was a deep unrest in like in this discovery.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this connects a little bit back to our last episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: very much so yeah and this is either why I think they're in twine and I think you just gave me a major epiphany on why I felt so much that we need to talk about this and I podcast on fatherhood because we know that we're made for work we know that work is hard there's lots of difficulties there but we also know when when we're not finding something about the life God gave us that just lights us up something at us is [SPEAKER_00]: at unrest, like we are not ourselves.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think our family often just pays the price of that because we haven't found peace.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I just, I think this is an episode of invitation, a permission of saying, [SPEAKER_00]: You all out there hearing this, you know, there's something in your life that brings you joy or if you're like, there's nothing that is the problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to name it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you need to feel that the creator of the universe, the creator of you is inviting you to enjoy the life he's given you in gratitude and that your family needs to see that as a part of you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, that can go too far.

[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously that you, you can be the kind of person who's like, well, I love rock climbing and I'm gonna do a couple months of backpacking and rock climbing every year and just like, you know, to heck with whatever that cost that puts on my family and being obviously really extreme, but we all know how we can take things that we love too far in our families, pay the price of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I would say, Brooke, I wonder if you agree with this, I encounter more fathers in my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: who don't feel the permission to have any hobby outside of worker parenting, having anything that brings them meaning and they suffer from that.

[SPEAKER_00]: What do you see more of?

[SPEAKER_00]: Do we see more people taking it too far or people not doing it at all?

[SPEAKER_02]: It depends on the level of resource you have.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that people that have a lot of resource can afford to fill in logistical gaps that allow them to [SPEAKER_02]: was the right way to say it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It can buy them certain levels of freedom, whether, you know, so I think it depends on the person, it depends on the circumstance.

[SPEAKER_02]: I would say by and large, I see what the first that you said that there is a, even if there is time and money to have a hobby, there's a guilt built in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, yeah, so let me just, but this will, but where I think this comes down most to is in your marital dynamic.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what this often is is your wife's drowning, you're overworking, you're both at your edge of just existence and the kids are needing a ton and parenting is exhausting just just even keeping yourself alive is a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so everyone's tanked, and then you say, I got a voice trip this weekend, and I can't wait.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and guys have a little bit more flexibility sometimes, depending upon their work, not every situation, but a lot of them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, man, what is the wife's response who's exhausted over long to tired?

[SPEAKER_02]: Every man listening knows, like, what you're leaving me with a kid, like, how could this happen?

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think a lot of the times you have to start working on the like, you're both kind of drowning.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you really want to participate in a hobby that brings life, it starts with saying, how can I make space for my wife to have this too?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if the dynamic is [SPEAKER_02]: Or vice versa, if you're a wife listening, start with that, you know, like start with how can I give you an evening be realistic to do something that brings you life?

[SPEAKER_02]: Just one thing, one evening, one time a week, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: What is that?

[SPEAKER_02]: And then vice versa, give that back to your spouse.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of the times it's not that men don't want to do that or don't have those things on their list.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think there is, it's a mental guilt or a mental block.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have time to do what matters to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if a hobby brings you life, [SPEAKER_02]: I would say you need to make space for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, for example, Elizabeth, she has a lot of health stuff, but exercise brings her life.

[SPEAKER_02]: There you go.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I make sure that every morning she goes to a workout class, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't have any responsibilities really for the kids up till certain, you know, point and time.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's primarily so that she can do something that is necessary for her whole person.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we've realized she needs that like three or four, five times a week.

[SPEAKER_02]: That seems like a lot, but in our situation, it's a giving.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it makes sense, it brings her life.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, she does other stuff, and she has other things she likes doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm always trying to say, okay, how do I help that?

[SPEAKER_02]: And then in turn, she's so quick to give the same.

[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, I would say, [SPEAKER_02]: You know, throwing that back to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I see it being a lot of the times that we say we don't have space in time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't see many men having the ability to take advantage of it because I think the life is so full.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you are taking over advantage, which is not as common, what I see, I think a lot of guys in those spaces have probably a pretty healthy, unhealthy dynamic with their spouse.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not like their wife is happy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're going camping or hunting every weekend, but it's not because your wife's giving you permission.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're just saying, this is your demanding.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're taking.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a super, super important paradigm to add in here.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is really a metaphor for lots of marriage, but you should really, bothers listening.

[SPEAKER_00]: Listen, you should really be making sure your wife has that, has the space, has the freedom before you look to your own needs.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is the life of Christ.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that he, you know, he, [SPEAKER_02]: If it shows a lot easier.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, also it's going to make it easier for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's also just the paradigm of Christ of look to the needs of others before you look to your own needs.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what we're trying to say here though is that don't overlook the need of parents to have life outside of parenting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, don't overlook the need of a worker to have life outside of working.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're human being and you are meant for a multiplicity of things.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've sort of down to this whole podcast on this idea that life is more complicated than you think it is as a father.

[SPEAKER_00]: You feel it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But we just want to acknowledge it.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's lots of dynamics.

[SPEAKER_00]: And finding that thing that brings you love is so important.

[SPEAKER_00]: But what we're drilling on here for a second is [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe because they're giving it to your wife first.

[SPEAKER_00]: And here's how I think about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is actually really true.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think I hope in our marriage, Lauren.

[SPEAKER_00]: Lauren, leave a comment if you disagree.

[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, could you send in a question to you?

[SPEAKER_00]: But voice promote.

[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the things that brings Lauren like intense life is reading.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And walking in the woods and mushroom hunting.

[SPEAKER_00]: So mushroom hunting.

[SPEAKER_02]: That is a great, it's a great, very random hobby.

[SPEAKER_00]: Super obscure hobby.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But literally, our first cabin camping trip that we ever went on in our first year of marriage.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember Lauren was like, I'm going to go hunting for more, more L mushrooms.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.

[SPEAKER_00]: You say they're like, they grow in Virginia, they're rare and delicious.

[SPEAKER_00]: But also like all the mushrooms you find are like you you have to be an expert because you might be in poison like it's soup.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so she has an expert hunter friend who she sends pictures to and he says yes, you can cook that or not.

[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, she loves reading, she loves walking outside in the woods and ideally finding mushrooms.

[SPEAKER_00]: But two of those things, reading is the more common one because I can say on a weekly or even more times a week basis of like, babe, I know you've been exhausted today.

[SPEAKER_00]: I get it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I see it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, without saying, I'm exhausted too, because it's usually true.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I've also been working on day.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm also exhausted.

[SPEAKER_02]: And never goes well, doesn't it?

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, but I think this is the part of the call, part of the strength of being a father, say, I'm going to carry this weight for us.

[SPEAKER_00]: I got the rest of the bedtime.

[SPEAKER_00]: I got the rest of the dishes.

[SPEAKER_00]: You shut the door and lock it so the boys don't come in and you read.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just read.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's not always easy to accept the gift because she might be like, well, I have a ton to do and I can't just, but sometimes and I think, you know, it's, it's often, it's just, I thank you and she'll just go read and I want her to do it because I want her to be recharge.

[SPEAKER_00]: She loves, she's a huge reader of fiction.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about as like what she's probably sitting in the room thinking this is not productive for my family But eyes are husband I'm saying that's I want you to be the you that God made you to be and I know that that you need to be reading fiction [SPEAKER_00]: For me, yeah, I was going to ask you guys, what are the things to bring you?

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of things for me to bring meaning, but I would say writing and reading is first and foremost.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll go on.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll give a couple of others, but I just want to lay this one first down because when I was a missionary in China or a young lawyer working in my big law firm like overworked and crushed [SPEAKER_00]: throughout all of these years when it made no sense to go and write or wake up early and write.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would go and write and I would wake up early and write.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would read poetry.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would write poetry.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would read fiction.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would write fiction.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would read articles.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would write articles.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would read novels.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I wrote a novel during law school.

[SPEAKER_00]: You did.

[SPEAKER_00]: Remains on published, but hey, if some agent out there wants to come talk to me, I still really want it.

[SPEAKER_01]: No way.

[SPEAKER_00]: But because [SPEAKER_00]: Here's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I looked at any one of those moments, I would think like sort of wasteful like why are you as a missionary in China leaving your wife on this like Tuesday night was my writing night.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would go to a Irish pub down the street in China and like have like a single beer because it was always I could all like a Ford.

[SPEAKER_00]: We made so little money.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then again, your money went really far in China.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I'm not going to get distracted there.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would have a single beer and I would write.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it had nothing to do with my vocation, then.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it had, I knew then that it was part of me staying alive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I knew, and there's a wonderful quote by Cecil Delos, I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: He says, he said, I write not in order to be understood.

[SPEAKER_00]: I write to understand.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's like when you hear me say, find meaning or hobby, whatever it is, it's some part of life that just helps you process and understand the world become more of yourself, even though it may be totally unproductive.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: As it turns out, [SPEAKER_00]: That love of writing cultivated across time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so thankful.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's sort of because it has become a second vocation.

[SPEAKER_00]: My primary vocation, I would say is corporate loyering, but I'm now writing a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not publishing books.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm speaking.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I've great joy like that writing hobby has become a part of my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't need to have been like the story doesn't need to resolve.

[SPEAKER_00]: And oh, and then I started to get paid for it or be asked to do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, the story is that it became a meaningful part of my life that I love that my children see, that my wife sees, and it's just a part of who I am.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so you don't need to get paid for it to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But my kids know, I love to read and write.

[SPEAKER_00]: If they wake up in the morning now, they're going to come downstairs and find me either sitting in the library or sitting by the fire, depending on if it's summer or winter.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just reading.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I love your read and guess what?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's part of our life as a family now.

[SPEAKER_00]: And here's where I name other ones.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love camping.

[SPEAKER_00]: Really?

[SPEAKER_00]: I love camping.

[SPEAKER_00]: You need to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm a huge huge camper.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's amazing spots here by the way, like insane.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk about this.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, we'll get there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love sitting outside around a backyard fire and talking to friends.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love tinkering with stuff in the house.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm not.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you tell them about your tinkering here?

[SPEAKER_00]: Your tinkering?

[SPEAKER_00]: I saved this background.

[SPEAKER_00]: This background is about to fall apart.

[SPEAKER_00]: This background is like stuck a butter knife in it.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, you got a butter knife.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I was not going to work.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you had like some situation.

[SPEAKER_02]: You just shoved it in and this thing from rolling down.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I said, thank you all the team.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're welcome.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, all of these things.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a pair that I'm here.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned camping.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned tinkering.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I literally love when Lauren's like, Hey, we need a new light or new fan in here.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, can I install it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and not because I'm super good at it, but because camping.

[SPEAKER_00]: Conversations, tinkering, they get me out of my vocational paradigm where all day I'm doing this.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is why I'm looking at if you're watching YouTube.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a T-Rex.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like hunched up and I'm typing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, and everybody who's been listening, I love my work.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I love typing out contracts.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love writing books.

[SPEAKER_00]: But most of my work asks me to be pretty solitary and pretty in my head.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: When one said there's a rabbi Abraham Heschel.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was just going to say who says.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love this book, the hands in the head.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: They take us there.

[SPEAKER_00]: The quote is that, and this is just an ethic.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, but it's helpful.

[SPEAKER_00]: The man who works with his mind should Sabbath with his hands and the man who works with his hands should Sabbath with his mind.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so when I think of camping, it's like, oh, I get out of the office and into the roaring ferocious place of nature, where you have to figure out how to stay warm tonight and make a fire.

[SPEAKER_02]: Arguably, it's work.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh.

[SPEAKER_00]: I get on to work.

[SPEAKER_00]: Pleasantly exhausted by camping.

[SPEAKER_00]: It gets so much work to, by the way, to control four boys who all want to jump in the fire or hack themselves with machetes, because like, you know, I'm giving them like little hatchets to like work on things.

[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, cooking around the fire, like seeing if we can get all the tents set up before it rains, all these things, then tinkering around the house, can I figure out how to get the ceiling fan installed?

[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, here's what's great.

[SPEAKER_00]: When you're writing, podcasting, negotiating, contract, you never quite know if you've got it right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's the sentence, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this episode turned out right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for saying this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Did I win this negotiation or not, should the indentification clause been this way or that way?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if a ceiling pan turns on or not.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like also, you just know, like, does it flip?

[SPEAKER_00]: This is, this is the, and there is like such a pleasure to working with your hands.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, well, is it level?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it square?

[SPEAKER_00]: Does the electricity flow?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I also, I think I find that in conversation with friends.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just an unfolding around the fire with a drink where I'm like, I just feel free to be relational to talk.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And all, all these things that I mentioned are now deep hobbies for me, but here's why [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to talk about each of those.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are also places where I find my children.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love camping and guess what I do?

[SPEAKER_00]: I take them camping.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love conversation and guess what I'm teaching my kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I will.

[SPEAKER_00]: In the evening, we did this literally this week.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, boy, I'm going to make a Manhattan and you guys are going to make a mocktail.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to make you tea with honey or like fruit juice and like maybe add some bitters or something.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to make a drink that we like.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to anybody offended, you know, drinking with your kids, you know, I had at cocktail, but it was the idea of we're finding something to bond over and we just talk.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we did, I let them into what I do with my friends and that is we have a drink and we talk.

[SPEAKER_00]: or tinkering.

[SPEAKER_00]: I invite anytime I need to replace a ceiling fan.

[SPEAKER_00]: Guess who's going to be right beside me?

[SPEAKER_00]: One of my sons usually it's Azure.

[SPEAKER_00]: He loves working with me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is where I'm, this is why I think it's so important.

[SPEAKER_00]: Your life of like, meaning art hobbies, whatever it is for you is going to be a lot of the place where you invite your children into life with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're not often going to come to work with you, though they should.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're not going to often see, like, you know, what it's like for you and your wife to update.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of place of your life that's closed off to them, but these places of hobby is, these are the places you get invite them in, like, oh, I always grew up fishing with my dad or I always grew up going to baseball games with my dad, whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: invite your kids into that life of meaning because they're, they find you use like a real you they're like, oh my dad and all his weird eccentricity he loved doing this and he invited me into his life of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so, I'm so love everything you're saying, agree with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Have you found the funny thing yet where your kids start giving you feedback about you that you didn't that you weren't fully present to?

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if my kids are old enough to be there yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not just like feedback of like, yeah, Dad always does this and I'm trying to remember the example like, [SPEAKER_02]: But like, oh, yeah, he always says it.

[SPEAKER_02]: This where it does this thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like he would say point out something.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, wait, wait, I do that all the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, you just like, they're making you aware of something that's so obvious to them, but you're very obvious to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Lauren definitely, I don't know that my boys are quite there yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Lauren helps you with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: Our spouses did it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But back to the idea, I love what you were talking about.

[SPEAKER_02]: Very helpful.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think what you were just describing, which is super helpful and practical for this conversation is the meaning, you know, your father had needs you to find meaning.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really key part to you as a human flourishing, the meaning of your life.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, whole thing, your family also brings deep meaning.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're a spouse deep meaning.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like that's a big part of it as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where it's so I mean, however many percentages of our time go, you know, it's the prioritized part of our life.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I will say what I like about what you were just highlighting is that [SPEAKER_02]: When our fatherhood has meaning, when we are finding our meaning in these different, whether it's hobbies and vocation and hobbies together or this overlap, it helps us be fuller happier, calmer individuals that are better fathers that are like, oh, I have some space to invite them into a hobby because you know, it's really hard to do.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to invite your kids into a hobby when all you want to do is get away from them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so this is where this is invitation and challenge.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, because the invitation is fine, you know, find something that lights you up and go do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the challenges.

[SPEAKER_00]: inviting your children into that with you, inviting your family into that with you choosing something that doesn't steal from your family, but rather gives to your family.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to note that the beauty of this is if your kids don't have some mode of interacting with you, where they're like, that's happy when he's doing this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then you risk being the father [SPEAKER_00]: who is always unhappy when you're interacting with your children.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is so dangerous.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think what I'm trying to say is, figure out how to be happy in the place you are.

[SPEAKER_00]: Figure out how to be grateful and joyful in the place that you are.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you can't do that without finding a meaningful place of life.

[SPEAKER_00]: where then you can loop in your children and be like, yeah, you know, work is hard, lots of things are hard, but when we go fishing, you know, things are happy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I see that happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe to highlight the challenge of what you're saying, because I agree with you on every front.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when you're categorically tanked, overwhelmed, stressed, and your kids are what are taking so much of your life from you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's you almost have to have space to get to a spot of being able to get out from underwater, you know, be above water a little bit to even enjoy their presence.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now I'm not saying that this is right or good.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just speaking to the reality of a felt experience that many parents have, including myself at times where I want to invite my kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like the problem is I've had so much time just right right and not in the fun ways, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're caring for them, you're making sure everything's fine.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're you're having to get them ready for school, you're having to help them follow through with their responsibilities.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's like those life things that are gritty that get in the way and they're not those fun moments.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's dads and especially because we're speaking to fathers.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's our job in many ways or at least an invitation to you to think about how can I bring moments of those like you're encouraging to space.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I would just also say if you're the parent that's drowning, you're like, yeah, just and that sounds awesome to invite my kids into the one thing that I like doing that brings me life, but every time I do my part of my goal is to be away from that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or just to give me a breath, I would say, [SPEAKER_02]: start with giving yourself a breath.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, enjoy that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in, at the right time invite your kids into it because if you really love it and it brings you life, they're going to like it too.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're going to love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's well said, bro.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I will say something that's probably controversial, but it's not controversial at all, but I think it's fine.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be the judge.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, I'll judge.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love comedy.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love [SPEAKER_02]: Comedians I love I love SNL like I love watching us know SNL's highly inappropriate attempt, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Life is life isn't appropriate.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I also have kids I have older kids a little bit older and one of my favorite things to do with my son and he like it's like on code He's like Saturday comes out so Sunday usually is on whatever the next stream the streaming device Sunday night is usually our time to watch us and all together and [SPEAKER_02]: I'm telling you one of the most bonding students I do.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love these.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's of course, like I'm skipping certain things if it starts talking about stuff too much.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll just, you know, I'll skip ahead.

[SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, like to sit down and just laugh together.

[SPEAKER_02]: You feel so bonded to me to laugh.

[SPEAKER_02]: The other thing I'll say is that something I invited my son to do a few times or one time, officially, and then there's been a couple more times.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know as a man you sit around and a lot of times a lot but you know a handful of times a year I'll sit down with some brothers and we'll have some cars and we'll smoke some cars.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I might be next time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we can do tonight if you want.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but but that said you know there's that moment of like hey, this is a man thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's an adult world.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's an adult world that you slowly invite them into at an appropriate level.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Teach them moderation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I've had him come.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's been on a couple of these with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've handed him a cigar and said, son, I'm going to show you how to do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is not inhaling.

[SPEAKER_02]: And some people here in this like you are the worst father in the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe at the very same time.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing more bonding and what are like shoulder chest building thing to be like, I'm with the boys having real conversations.

[SPEAKER_02]: My dad is letting me focus to guard with him.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, it should be told as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like my son also has a tattoo.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I talk to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's a small tattoo.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have the same one.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a Roman numeral five for the [SPEAKER_02]: He's, we're doing some of the primal path stuff, but he has little mini, you know, stick and poke tattoo.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, and what greater thing to be like, yeah, I was thirteen in my dad and I got a matching tattoo to mark the moment of the start of like a process to be done.

[SPEAKER_02]: All that said, I think I'm saying that and I'm telling all that to say like, I'm loving it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I see keep keeping.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Some of that stuff to me, both of those things that I mentioned are things that actually are.

[SPEAKER_02]: I like them because it's an experience with people communication, conversation, cigar smoke to a man, whatever, like ladies listening, just pleasing to where this, you might not connect whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: The point being that there's a visceral thing that happens, they're sitting down.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my son and I watching S&L laughing our heads off and appreciating the comedic, dryness and all that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, there's life that happens there.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess I'm seeing, I'm agreeing with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm giving permission to anyone listening to say, [SPEAKER_02]: make sure that what these things are, they need to bring you life.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when you can, like, just to agree to bring your kids in.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Bring them into it because I find some of the most bonding things happen.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know my kids will remember a few things about me.

[SPEAKER_02]: They'll remember that we like to laugh a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: They'll remember our love jazz music.

[SPEAKER_02]: They'll love the, they'll remember that I love records and jazz and jazz records specifically.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, these are things that they just like, I love candles.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is dumb.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, don't as like, truth be told, I love candles.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wait a minute.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't wait a minute.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hold on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hold on.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is real.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love candles.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not getting you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is the weirdest bonding moment on a father in my guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: My office makes fun of me because I, I can't.

[SPEAKER_00]: I kind of like collect candles in my office because one did, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't even we shouldn't do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have like eight candles at my office right now, like not even as I don't like them all, but like they're in a storage spot like always have candles.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, so we talked about cigars and candles.

[SPEAKER_02]: The commonalities fire fire burning.

[SPEAKER_02]: We love control fire.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, that's really funny that you just said that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had no idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like the presence of a candle while I'm working, but yeah, to like the scent, no fake sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: My wife was crazy if it's like artificial sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be natural.

[SPEAKER_02]: My wife will not let us burn anything in that house.

[SPEAKER_00]: Got to be natural.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so when I love the presence of light and fire while I work, there's there's something spiritual meditative about it, but there's also just it's nice light.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I saw it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why were you saying it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you were saying your kids know that you love jazz music.

[SPEAKER_00]: You love candles.

[SPEAKER_00]: You love records.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like these are just things that are part of their little, their little preferences that bring me life.

[SPEAKER_02]: But they are preferences that impact their life.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think they will grow up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when they hear jazz music on Sabbath, they're going to say, yes, this reminds me of a child.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's can I?

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we got a couple more things to say, but I want to start to lift us because our last episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, please do.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's the last part of our last episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: This, I think is so profound to look at as we end because what your kids see when they see that is they see that their father delights and things.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's a man who has the capacity to love and be happy and enjoy.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think far, far, far too many of us.

[SPEAKER_00]: Look at God and think of Him as primarily the place of authority, of judgment.

[SPEAKER_00]: Of yes, maybe forgiveness and love.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's something cold and authoritarian and abstract about it because we miss.

[SPEAKER_00]: the fundamental idea that God loves and delights in the world and us.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like he, he, as it turns out, invented the idea of delighting and creation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: He created light and dark candles and dimness and said good.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then he created mountains and oceans, the places where we love to explore and some it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, it's good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then he created animals.

[SPEAKER_00]: and created flowers and created weird stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, yeah, you know, penguins and Northern lights and negative properties and penguins, you know, penguins.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've never even heard that word before.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's my daughter, British.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's all about them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you understand the story of the Bible right, you see that in the opening pages of it, there's a God who laughs and enjoys and delights in creation.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then he delights in us and he loves us.

[SPEAKER_00]: And fundamentally, the story of the Bible is that despite all our brokenness, he invites us into the delight of the Trinity.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like the laughing dance of like things are going to be lived happily ever after.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is more of a fairy tale than you think.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is more enchantment of the world than you think.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is a father in heaven who laughs with delight at the goodness of the world he's made and at the goodness of the story that he's telling.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when we live into small places of delight and our kids see that and our wives see that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're reflecting who God fundamentally is that he is a God of enjoyment and delight.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we should feast, we should hobby, we should tinder, we should do what he does and let our kids see it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're more of a true Heavenly Father, we're more like him when we live like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: just change one word of what you said.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just one.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm so that whole idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, huh, I'm saying I'm doing it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're saying we should.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we should tinker.

[SPEAKER_02]: We should I would like to change it to we get to.

[SPEAKER_02]: We get to tinker.

[SPEAKER_02]: We get to experience beauty.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a privilege to do this stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not that you should or you have to.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody listening and I know this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know your heart is to get to, but even as you're saying that I'm just making the connection like, it's because it's more than I just should, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It is.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's I get to.

[SPEAKER_02]: I get to delight.

[SPEAKER_02]: I get to enjoy candles and I'm like nerd out with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a, yeah, I, that's so good because it is a wonderful surprising permission that God wants you to enjoy the life he's given you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, really, I get to do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you do.

[SPEAKER_02]: You get to enjoy your kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is gift.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think the more that we recognize, fatherhood is a gift.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just doesn't come wrapped like you expect.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I think about fatherhood, it has been the most shaping, challenging thing for me because it has brought up a product, but it has shown and revealed those parts of me that need the most healing.

[SPEAKER_02]: and that's an important dynamic to say like there's it will expose your areas and your wounds and the things that you're healing and I didn't know how much healing I needed you know and so it has been both a gift and a and a challenge like you know I both embraced it with everything in me and then I've also had many moments of just sadness of like man I wish my kids had a different dad sometimes you know and I don't actually want that but [SPEAKER_02]: I guess maybe just to sit with a human experience that it is that hard a lot of the times depending upon your situation and it brings out things in you that you know you're surprised by yeah but we at the very same time fatherhood is a gift and your fatherhood needs you to find meaning because when you find that meaning I'm telling you like for I know for you just in your saying this and and I and this has been even in the more recent years for me [SPEAKER_02]: It has helped me want to be a better father in every way.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's helped me and and it can be bigger little and it can be as simple as like I go hunting and I love like my I come back Just smiling and I think [SPEAKER_02]: You know, Sabbath, the idea of Sabbath is so important.

[SPEAKER_02]: Our Sabbath that our home is very important.

[SPEAKER_02]: Our kids know what day of the week it is because they know that on Sabbath they get to watch, they get to watch cartoons in the morning and they get to eat sugary cereal.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what we let them do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's a place of delight.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a delight thing, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So they know that and they love it and that that's just like one small example.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, Sabbath is all about worshipful fun and rest.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, that is what a lot of, and this is not idealistic, but like, that's the point.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the point is to take a day to just say, how can I have worshipful fun and rest?

[SPEAKER_02]: What brings me life and rest?

[SPEAKER_02]: So some of that's going to be hobby stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what's fun?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, send it aside.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you get a day, you work real hard, man.

[SPEAKER_02]: You work real hard.

[SPEAKER_02]: Have fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and some of you are in the space where it's just going to take time to figure what that means and what that looks like.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I just, we get to, you know, we get to, we get to get together around the fire, we get to do that stuff and it's a gift.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think this, this whole idea is probably a good place to land this season.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I think about tinkering or art or finding your hobby, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, lots of them ask us to slow to the pace of the craft, you know, if you build, you know, slow to the place of drying concrete or if you make music, you know, it takes time to form a song, it takes practice, all these things.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they, they make us get involved with an art and they make us realize that these things take time.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's small pieces put together.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is where I think this has something to teach us about fatherhood in general.

[SPEAKER_00]: When there's meaningful things that I ever heard was that life itself may be the greatest work of art.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then you know, I'm motivated.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's a part of me is very artistic.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love to write.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love to create.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when I realize weight, life itself is the greatest story that I'll ever write.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like my family is the greatest project that I'll ever work on.

[SPEAKER_00]: My marriage is the greatest composition that I will ever compose.

[SPEAKER_00]: And all these things that we're trying to do in Fatherhood, we've all drawn all these intersecting lines that people can look at of the tensions of the roles and it is a lot more like creating than we think because it happens in small persistent patterns.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anybody who's a painter knows there's just a lot of small tiny strokes that end up making [SPEAKER_00]: masterpieces.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when you think about your life of being a father, there's going to be a ton of small tiny tinkering or habits or efforts.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's possible to like hear all the talk we've done on habits or rhythms or things to do and think of them as like work or or derudgery or difficulty.

[SPEAKER_00]: And part of it is okay part of it is any painter.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I can tell you, yeah, this part of the painting was just directed a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: When you start to zoom out as we're trying to do in this episode and realize that all those little efforts, all those little habits were strokes in a masterpiece called your life.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is not being done just by you, but rather the father is holding your hand guiding your hand.

[SPEAKER_00]: Tuning your ear, lifting your voice, and helping you to compose to write, to make meaning out of your family.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is a beautiful thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a way to look at Fatherhood, not just his work, not just his drudgery, not just the realm of habit, though it is all this comes together to make your family your life.

[SPEAKER_00]: a work of art offered to the God who made you to create just like he did.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think when we see that we see that there's beauty in the directory, there's a pay off to the whole story, there's an arc to it and that we're more like God than not there.

[SPEAKER_00]: We create like him and our greatest call to creation might be to create an intentional family.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: So well said, men, fathers, you can do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's really important to say that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like we need to remember that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like some of the most helpful things in our life.

[SPEAKER_02]: with the power of the Holy Spirit and with some intentionality, you can be an amazing father.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and pray about it, I pray all the time, God help me be a better father.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like daily, help me be a better father.

[SPEAKER_02]: Why?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I need that help every single day.

[SPEAKER_02]: But just to say, [SPEAKER_02]: We are two very imperfect in process fathers.

[SPEAKER_02]: But we'll just say if we could just say if we've been able to see behind any curtain or if this podcast can hopefully give you anything, we want to give you hope that this is something that with the power of the spirit you can live into.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've talked about a lot of just logical things, practical things because life is both physical and spiritual.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of the things we've talked about.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it is both, but even as we wrap up today, I just want to say, Father's, you can do this.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so what I'd love to do to end this season is just to pray a blessing over the Father's.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can we do that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Amen.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to pray you're going to pray.

[SPEAKER_02]: Amen.

[SPEAKER_02]: And just to take a moment to pray blessing over those who have listened or who are listening to this, I can't think of a better way of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you down.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's close.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Father, I think of all the fathers listening.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I simply just want to ask that anyone that hears my voice or Justin's voice right now would just be filled with the fullness of joy and the might of your power and the ability to do what they cannot do on their own.

[SPEAKER_02]: I pray that you would give vision.

[SPEAKER_02]: You would give more capacity and more energy.

[SPEAKER_02]: So many of us are just at our wits and our at our capacity.

[SPEAKER_02]: God, we pray for more capacity to do the right things.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't pray for more capacity to do the wrong things, but more capacity to do the things that are going to bring life to our families, to our children.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so Father, I pray for the men listening right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: I pray God that you would give them the tenacity, the conviction, the heart, the ability to skill, the wisdom, the self-control, the discipline, all the things that we need that we wouldn't even fully have on our own.

[SPEAKER_02]: Energize it supernaturally by your spirit to be able to be wonderfully loving tender husbands, thoughtful caring, gentle, and fathers that imitate you and image you really well to our kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: For all the blunders we've made, we ask that you would heal the wounds that we have created in our kids, heal the wounds that we've created in our spouses, and father heal our lives that we might be able to represent you well in this world to our families.

[SPEAKER_00]: Amen to all that and Lord, I pray a blessing on all these fathers listening.

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you bless and keep them?

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you turn their sorrows to joy?

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you take their traumas, their pain, make meaning out of it, redeem it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you take their blessings and help them build on them?

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you [SPEAKER_00]: help them find meaning in their work, help them find healthy rhythms for their days, bring them out of vice, out of loneliness, in to friendship, and to virtue, and to habits that build strength for their family, Lord bless, and keep them make your face shine upon them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Would they see you in some new way through these [SPEAKER_00]: Fumbling podcasts that we put together, would you use these words that they might see your face in a new way?

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you meet them in their quiet times?

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you meet them in their moments of prayer?

[SPEAKER_00]: Would you meet them as they cry out before disappointing help?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is they cry out before trying to have a conversation with their wife or their kids just help?

[SPEAKER_00]: When they're just saying help, would you meet them with so much more than they even asked for?

[SPEAKER_00]: Lord, make your face shine upon them and may all of us, Lord, I pray that we would go in the peace in the Shalom, in the goodness of an integrated life with all the tension points, work together, flourishing for good that way that you made creation, would you work peace in our lives, in our families, in our fatherhood?

[SPEAKER_00]: For all these fathers, I pray, may we go in your peace, it is in your name and pray, amen.