Hello everybody, I'm Diane Grissell.

I'm also known as Silver Disobedience, and this is the Silver Disobedience Perception Dynamics podcast.

And I've got a really fun guest today that is having an extra good day.

So I'm honored to be celebrating with him, but he's going to tell you why in a moment.

His name's Ray Deforest and we are going to be talking about drag, SAG, AFTRA and we're just spill some tea as we sit around here and chat.

Ray, it's a pleasure to have you here.

Hello, it's a pleasure to be here.

OK, so today is a big day for you.

Why?

So last August I got diagnosed with grade 5 prostate cancer, which is kind of the worst kind of prostate cancer you can have.

And on top of that, most prostate cancer is inside the prostate and many times they pull the prostate.

My cancer is on the outside of the prostate, which they now can't pull out because they can't guarantee every cell will be caught and the cells could go everywhere in the body.

And when we found that out, they also said most likely that cancer is throughout my body and there's not great future for me.

So you're dealing what you get that that sort of thing in your life and you suddenly are looking at the end of your life coming a lot sooner than you thought.

I'm 66, I'll be 67 in October.

And then they did a scan.

They found out that there was not a single cell they could find anywhere else in my body, which meant I could get treatment.

And last Thursday, which would have been less than a week ago, what they did a blood test and they said that my cancer is undetectable.

That is the best news I could have today.

Yeah.

What a way to start an episode on a really good note.

Yes, on a really good note.

Now you have had a colorful, interesting life.

Very colorful, OK.

People know you by your drag name as well, which is Doris dear yes.

So let's talk about the evolution of Ray to Doris and how this became an alter ego personality.

Yeah, So my mom, I lost my dad to complications after colon cancer surgery.

And then many years later, my mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

And I grew up in a family in Staten Island, NY.

I know good old Staten Island.

We were a hard working middle class family, but it was truly a family full of joy and love and celebration.

My mom was a model in the late 40s early 50s, walked runways in Paris and New York and gave it up to be a housewife.

And they were.

My dad worked was a hard working union guy for Bell Telephone and ended up at one point becoming vice president of of the union.

So I come by my union work naturally, apparently, and we were just all a loving, supportive, very close family.

So the five years of watching my mom go through Alzheimer's was especially hard on me.

You know, I was mom's boy and my sister was dead's girl.

So it was really hard working through all her Alzheimer's.

I mean, it's a hard thing.

How old were you?

This was 11 years ago.

Oh, wow.

And I learned very quickly, you don't, you know, people argue, mom, you've got to remember like they're not capable.

That capability is is lost through this disease.

And I just learned to live in the moment with her was a great lesson for me in many ways and my humanity, which really helped me recently through my cancer diagnosis.

And I would show up and sometimes it was 1970 to her, sometimes she didn't know.

In the end, she didn't know any of us.

But the loss of her eventually was so intense for me, the trying to find a way to mourn and also remember to celebrate my family, even though there was great loss.

And I always told stories about growing up in Staten Island with Taffy and Duke, who are my parents, and their parties in the Rumpus room every Saturday night, where everyone would come over, dressed up and go down into the Rumpus room in the basement and party till sunrise.

Were kids allowed to those parties in the.

Rumpus room?

No, but my sister and I would sneak down the stairs and watch and they would smoke too much and drink too much and sing and damn.

And I used to think, wow, they, my parents.

And then I realized, well, they were only in their 40s.

So I looked at what I did in my 40s and well, you know, apple tree, it's all right there.

So I decided, and I had been, I've been a full time actor since 19 years old, an actor, storyteller, singer.

So to deal with the loss of my mom, I decided to write a show and I sort of started crafting the show.

I found a musical director, we picked songs.

I was telling stories and I was doing it as myself, as Ray.

And it didn't feel right.

It was sad.

And I didn't want to do something that was sad.

It was meant to be a celebration, and I had done, my partner and I, we just celebrated 20 years together.

He's an amazing Angel in my life.

Especially lately, we decided he him and I had been working for a nonprofit, the Imperial Court, where you kind of do drag to raise money.

And we would raise money for lots and lots of nonprofits.

And so I had Dundra.

I mean, if you're in the LGBTQ community, eventually you put on the heels and the dress and go parade or something.

Have fun.

And it's fun.

And he said to me, I think you should.

I was telling him it would didn't work for me.

He said, I think you should do it in drag.

And I thought, oh, but I'm an actor.

I don't do drag.

I don't do shows in a bar and jump splits.

And I'm a terrible lip syncher.

And he said, no, I you should think about it.

So I talked to several friends of mine who I really trust their opinions.

And I decided, OK.

And I created a character based on my mother with stories combining my sister and I created a show, Doris Dears Girl Talk GURL.

And no one knew I had ever known I would do this kind of thing.

And I did it in a theater at the Triad Theater Uptown in New York on 72nd St.

And I remember being in the back in the dressing room and my partner came in and I said, look, I know no one's out there.

Just make sure they no one wants to sit up front.

Make them sit up front.

There's nothing worse than being on stage and looking at you don't see a single soul city up front.

And he looked at me says, great, we just turned away 20 people.

Wow.

And I thought, first show how I've never done a cabaret show of any kind.

How do people even know we were sold out?

The theater said, we love this.

It's something very special.

Your message, your joy, your hopefulness, your celebration of family.

No one's doing this come back and I've been coming back for 11 years now to sold out shows.

We produced a streaming series and COVID, we did Four Seasons with seven awards, seven major awards.

I now I'm a judge for them, the national Daytime Emmys and all these other things.

I judge and I mentor and.

Did that all come as a result of this show?

Yeah, yes, everything.

I found the most unbelievable joy in this character.

And in many ways I've always said, and I know we both don't sort of like this word, but I said I've never been so authentic on stage as when I'm Doris and Doris.

Doris.

There's my Staten Island accent, by the way.

That's OK, I have a Long Island one that pops out every song.

Yeah.

You know, Doris, Doris, Tia, I, you know, she gives me the freedom to storytelling in a way that as Ray, it doesn't come as naturally.

And I am a storyteller as Ray, but it's different.

And when I do these shows, you know, because I write them, I produce them.

I have a huge orchestra.

I mean, there's six months of work in these little shows and I get to live those that when I do 2 shows over a weekend, I get to live with my family again because they're all gone.

I lost my sister right before COVID to her brain aneurysm very suddenly.

So they're all gone.

But then here I am on stage telling their stories, celebrating all the stories I tell are true.

I mean, they're theatrical lies because I am a storyteller, but they're all true.

And people continually say to me, you took me back to an easier time.

And you reminded me how even if you grew up in a family that wasn't perfect, there was still love and joy there.

And I love that.

I love.

I love the joy it gives me, and I love the joy it brings to others.

And the first time I did the show, I always so I worked in Vegas as a singer and the biggest show in the world in Jubilee.

And Debbie Reynolds at the time had a show.

She had our hotel and like she was trying to get a museum for all those costumes she she owned.

And I got to know her and she would do a show in the hotel and she would stand outside for as long as it took to meet with every single person in that theater.

And, and I said, why do you do that?

Everybody knows who you are.

And she said, you know what?

She said, Ray, always remember that those people in that theater are why you're working.

And if you didn't have them you you're not working.

That's a good lesson.

Yeah.

And I do that.

I stand out at after the show and I meet everybody and that first couple of shows who.

Makes them Ray or Doris.

Who makes what?

Who meets them?

After Doris, Doris always meets them.

Yeah.

And I never break the character until I get home, close the door and that, and then everything comes off.

But I would have these wives come up and say, my husband would like to give you a hug, is that I guess, Of course.

And these husbands, because my audience is mostly straight couples of a certain age, maybe 4045 plus, who have families and I'd say, and I, they would, I would hug them and I could feel them sort of exhale and relax into me.

And these are seconds long and then take a breath and step away and say thank you, you're just great.

And I first I thought, what is, do they like the, the fake double D's?

Like what are they?

What are they enjoying about all this?

And I'm, you know, I'm 7 foot 2 and the whole outfit and I realized that I represent everyone's mother, that I represent the men.

They would lean in and exhale and it was like being on the couch.

You're head in mom's lap.

You don't have a mortgage, There's no stress, everything you're being taken care of.

And I grew to accept that and, and release that to them and let them have that moment.

And it's sort of just brings me so much joy that I can give joy to others and in turn, it gives joy to me.

And I think that's that's just such a wonderful thing.

And that's a great thing that Doris gave me.

And I thought I was only doing 1 show would be over.

And it's 11 years now and I'd say it's 90% of my career and it's fantastic and it's taught me so much.

That's very heartwarming.

That is very heartwarming.

And it's interesting, your psychological insight into the dynamic you're creating with people.

Yeah, I mean, and so many people said, well, I came the first time because, you know, you're my friend, I want to support you.

And then they said, But I come back because I've never sat through anything so wonderful and joyous.

Now when you create a show, how long do you run that show and then do you change up the content?

Are you writing a news?

Show.

Every show is.

Different.

Every show is different.

And don't repeat anything.

And I try not to repeat stories, although there's always a little overlap.

Yeah.

So I do it like one of my big shows every year is a Christmas show.

I have 8 or 9 guests from Broadway, Cabaret, Pop World, the, the Metropolitan Opera.

They come in and guest and we, they sing, they do a solo.

We talk about the joy of family and the holidays and what it means to them.

But every year it's a different show, you know, every year it's a new topic, a new celebration and it's always new.

And then I do solo shows, usually one or two during the year.

And I have a Sondheim show, I have my girl talk show.

I have more girl talk and more and more girl talk and it's and it's great, but it's a lot.

I mean, it's a lot of work.

You're, I'm constantly writing.

I use, I try to do creative thinking where one of the great exercises I love is 10 ideas in 10 minutes.

You just take a pad and you have 10.

You set a timer and you got to write 10 ideas in 10 minutes, and it's a great exercise for me.

It's sort of like being in the shower, right?

Everybody has great ideas in the shower, and what they think is that when you're in the shower, there's nothing else.

It's just water.

It's noise, and it's that kind of noise that your brain enjoys and sort of opens it up and you have, I have great ideas in the shower and I always have my phone in case I want to scream.

You know, Siri, take a note.

But I love the practice of just 10 ideas in 10 minutes because sometimes it comes up with a lot of not so great.

And then all of a sudden there's a nugget that I go, Oh yeah, that's going on the To Do List, You know, So I love that sort of creative thinking and the creative, I love the creative mindset mindset, which is basically, you know, I've been delving into this now there's a lot of research into the creative mindset where some people believe that they have a set of abilities and that's it.

And if they're successful or not, it's all based on that.

But the creative mindset says that you have a set of abilities, but you're constantly expanding them and learning and looking at new ways to use them.

So your creative mindset is open.

And they've shown scans of brains that people who use creative mindsets, their minds are on fire, and people who don't, they're not.

It's very limited.

So I like to work in that space because it just opens me up to so much stuff.

I think that's such an important point and what I write every day.

And I have found just writing every day has expanded how I think.

Now I find stories in anyone I'm speaking to.

I'm like, Oh, that's an idea for my the next thing I'm going to write about.

But that creative mindset, what I really want everyone to understand is you don't have to just work in the arts.

It it's a creative mindset.

Could be, you know, the plumber, the electrician that I mean, you have to be pretty creative to figure out how pipes were going to ask me, you know?

For sure.

And I, I do corporate speaking, tell me so.

I do a lot of corporate speaking for the very, very large corporations.

What do you talk about?

Most of it is based on diversity, especially in today's world where diversity in large corporations is being challenged and being told to not have DEI or DEIB anymore.

But they I do them as Doris and I sing a nice storytell, but I'm always talking about how and I interview people from the company come into the TV studio and I interview them.

We do like an hour and a half show and it's shown to all their employees and we talk about diversity and we talk about the idea of how diversity expands the minds and it opens up ways of thinking to the rest of their employees because of that diversity and how important that is that the companies that really believe in that, how that has helped the companies grow in ways that they never thought was even possible.

I want to talk about that because we like to, I like to explore the operating systems of society.

And I 100% agree with you on the concept of diversity.

Where my objection is, is I also believe you have to have excellence in whatever somebody's doing because if I'm in a burning building, I'm not looking for the diverse person to come get me.

I want the person to pass the test that can carry my weight and Get Me Out of that building.

If I'm unconscious, you know, if I'm getting on a plane, I don't want the person just because they were diverse.

I want the person who really like my nephew X Top Gun pilot who's now flying for one of the big airlines.

I want that guy who can handle stress.

You know, a plane load of people is nothing to him compared to getting shot, not at 85 times.

You know, his in his, yeah, you know, F35 or F18.

So that's how do you, how do you navigate that when you're talking with people corporately?

Well, I mean, there is always this argument, there's always this argument that diversity is preventing the real person who should get the job from getting the job because diversity, it's often.

I don't.

I think that companies are still looking for the right people.

But like in my business, for example, in the actor business, a lot of people believe that only people in the LGBT community should be playing LGBT people.

Then there's this sub, the subset of people who believe that we're actors and we should be playing all roles.

Like I'm an actor if I'm hired, if I'm I'm if I'm gay, I should certainly be able to play a straight person.

So why can't a straight person play a gay person?

It's a fair argument.

And what do you think about that?

Because it is an interesting when there was some movie that just they did AI instead of hiring actual, you know, people who were very, very short.

Oh boy, let's open up the box of AI that's.

The whole program, Oh my gosh, back to that, because I want to talk because I know you're with, you know, SAG AFTRA and there's, you know, the whole writers Guild strike, you know, there's all that.

So we I do want to get to that, but I would love to, you know, what's your take on well, because there's so much about, you know, cultural appropriation, like if I want it or braids in my hair, am I stealing it from the Indians or who knows what it's like?

In some.

Ways we've gone backwards in that.

Yeah, I mean, I believe in the argument, for example, gay people like we were, we were not allowed at the table for 100 years.

We were not accepted, we were not allowed.

So if you're a director and one of the parts calls, especially now for a trans person, I believe that.

I believe that it's the casting and director's job to try to find a trans person to fill that role.

There are plenty of trans people in the union and not in the union who are great actors.

So we've never been at the table.

So let us at the table if we don't fit OK, but at least give us the chance after us not being allowed.

Their position?

Yeah.

And if we're not right, OK, there was a a new musical that was Andrew Lloyd Webber, I think was Andrew Lloyd Webber a new musical premiering many, many years ago in London.

And the star of the musical was supposed to be of Asian descent of a certain type.

And they decided way before all this sort of diversity stuff that they were going to do their best to find a true Asian woman to play this role.

They auditioned all over the UK, couldn't find someone.

They expanded into the rest of your couldn't find.

So they actually flew over to Asia and auditioned there.

And that's where they found Lea Salonga, a very young girl who was singing pop and brought her in because they and they did their duty to find the right person who fit the ethnicity to create this.

And of course, we all know Lea Salonga is a huge star and she's amazing.

She's on Broadway right now in a Sondheim musical.

And that's the kind of work I think that we should do.

I think we, if there's a gay role, try to find a gay person and if it doesn't and you can't find the right person, then go further, right?

I think that's fair.

Again, we weren't allowed at the table.

It allow us now.

And I think at times does it feel a little extreme?

Yes.

But eventually it will all equal out and settle it.

And I think the trans community, and I am not trans, so I can't say exactly what their experiences.

I mean, they're part of my community.

I treasure trans people.

They've been a part of every culture since the dawn of time.

And if you don't believe that, then you don't believe in anything.

You don't believe in real history.

So I feel like that community is going through many of the things that we as male gay people and lesbians went through years ago, fighting for our community to move upfront.

And now they're going through it with a subset of problems.

And, and I see it just working in our union with the trans community and how hard it is for them right now.

And within the trans community there's many different opinions.

Like there was talk about giving out non binary awards and trans awards at the SAG Awards.

And I had many trans women say to me, I don't want a special award.

I want to be considered a woman.

I want to be considered a woman and win a best actress award, not a best trans actress award.

So it's a.

It's very complicated.

It's very complicated and I think that is where the break started to happen, particularly when you saw it in sports.

Because, I mean, you know, there was a story just now about fencing at Wagner College in Staten Island that they removed a girl refused.

She knelt down and refused to do her fencing with this trans woman.

And of course Fox News was is all over it.

This is how it should be and.

I I think it's tricky.

I think it's.

Tricky, but the science.

You know what, I but I grew up when there were, there were no sports for women.

You know, maybe maybe you could play volleyball, you know, maybe there was softball and there was gymnastics, field hockey.

But you know, maybe you need a third league for that or a third division.

But when it gets to something extremely physical, oh, that's a tough one for me.

Well, except all the science.

And I believe in science, all the science shows.

So for let's let's clear something up for people out there.

No one becomes trans overnight.

No one decides in October I'm going to be a woman now and in January is full, is fully trans and has got it's a very long process.

There's lots of psychology involved, being very careful.

Are they really ready for this?

Then there's hormone therapy and then possibly surgery.

Not all trans people want to quote UN quote pass.

They just want to live how they want to live.

But the science is also very clear that by the time they're they are fully trans and have become women because of hormone depletion and and estrogen added into their bodies and all the testosterone taking out their must, their muscle strength goes down by a huge percentage.

It's not like they're now men with man muscles competing against women.

Their musculature has gone so far down, their strength is good.

So in fact, they're almost equal to women, and the science shows that.

Well, wait a second.

I would have to.

I would have to object to that because I've spent 27 years in biology, so the science will never actually show that.

But you can certainly alter hormonal structure.

Yes.

You know whether that altering of hormonal structure makes someone become a male or a female.

I think that would be a stretch, but but I can understand your argument, your point.

I'm on hormone depletion because of my prostate cancer.

They've taken out all of my testosterone and any other hormones.

I lost 35% of my musculature in four or five months.

You want other chemotherapies as.

Well, no chemotherapy.

I had radiation radiation.

I used to do 3035 push ups and I started working out a month ago and I couldn't do 3I became so weak.

My muscular, my percentages went so down from the removal of my hormones and all of that.

And now my muscular is going back up.

And because I had to be very careful about bone density and muscle loss and all that kind of stuff.

And I do think it's a complicated issue.

Where does it sit?

What?

But so often I hear complaints about the trans community, for example.

And again, I am not trans, so I don't know their full struggles and I certainly don't understand everything about them about it.

But what I do understand is respect for humans.

And if if someone says to me, if someone says to me, I say, hey, David, how are you?

And he says, you know, I don't like to be called David.

I like to be called Dave.

Oh, OK, I'll call you Dave.

So if I meet someone and say my pronouns, are they them?

OK, they them.

What's the big deal?

Does it change my life in any way, shape or form respecting what another person wants to be called?

Respecting what?

Another person, what they reportedly what their gender is, if they say they're trans, OK, you're a trans woman, you're a trans man, whatever.

It doesn't change my life in any way.

And I just think too often we get caught up in this thing about the trans community and even the gay community and people get, I see these arguments and I think to myself, how does this affect your life in any way, shape or form?

Well, I think, I think, I think there was no issue with that.

I mean, I was talking with someone earlier about New York.

I mean, in the 1980s, nobody cared.

I mean, nobody cared.

And it became, I think the issue became when it was this is who I am and you must approve it, that there's a difference in life.

I mean, I can be a jerk, but you don't have to approve that I'm a jerk.

You know, you can say you're being a jerk, Diane.

You know, you have the right to say that.

You know, So I think it's the insistence.

I think it's insistence.

So we went for, you know, I think it's you have to personally accept yourself before you start to demand it of others.

And when you personally accept yourself, frankly, I don't think you care who signs on for that.

You know, you decided you were going to do a show as Doris.

And this is who you're doing a show as.

You know, I'm not you're not looking for approval.

You're saying this is this is a creative way.

I want to express my love for my family, my creative being.

And look at where you are 11 years later celebrating it.

Yeah.

And I think we all have different ways of I mean, in my, in my youth, oh, the youth, I marched in parades, I marched, I knew Larry Kramer, I marched, I do that.

I don't do that anymore.

I'm the strength to do that anymore.

God knows.

But I mean, I, I am in parades and stuff, but you know, like I do Doris and people see her as an actual person because I believe she is.

And in many ways that changes people's opinions of something that maybe they don't understand.

Like why would you do drag?

Why are you doing?

It's never, why are you doing Doris?

Why are you doing that?

It's just, Oh my gosh, I love Doris.

And to me, that's a change in someone's perspective and idea of drag.

Like I never in my press for my show, I never call her a drag queen.

I just, she's just Doris.

She's just a person.

I think sometimes the insistence of acceptance is born from a history of being hidden, you know, and so not, you know, in my as a gay man, you know, the Stonewall riots happened and we insisted that people accept who we are at a time when most gay people couldn't accept who they were.

They were afraid we could.

I mean, it was illegal in New York until I think it was 84 something that sodomy was still illegal.

They could come in your apartment if your neighbor called the police.

And I knew friends that that happened because you were sleeping with someone of the same sex.

So I think a lot of the anger and angst and the insistence of acceptance just comes from a history of non acceptance.

And I think some people use that as a way to find their comfort, whereas again, at my age, I don't really give a crap.

But let's talk about something.

I bet you do give a crap.

Sure, because AI is something we touched on a minute ago and I want to make sure we explore this.

You are very active in SAG AFTRA.

The writers strike just happened.

We're watching all kinds of things.

We're watching I'm I've seen models who were fit models get their all their measurements taken and now they're their AI version is getting paid instead of them.

So it's happening in so many areas.

How is this?

What's your take on what's happening here?

So, you know, we went through a long strike period.

There was the writers strike and then SAG after had our longest strike.

It was over over 100 days I believe and we were fighting for a fair contract and our our contracts with SAG.

After that we got that we agreed upon with the AM PTP, which is the AM PTP is for producers.

That's the producers kind of Guild.

It's there.

It's not a union, but it's their sort of Guild.

And the AM PTP is the ones who negotiate with SAG After with the Writers Guild for all the producers.

They're tough.

I mean, unions have some of the best negotiators out there.

They are strong.

They stand tall.

Our president, Frank Drescher, fought long and hard.

Now strike.

We got some of the best AI protections out of all the unions that were striking at the time.

SAG After achieved some of the best AI protections for the moment because our contracts are.

Yeah.

How long does that contract last?

3-4 years or something and then we renegotiate.

So we fought long and hard and we're also fighting on the government level, trying to get protections of our image federally.

And we do have some state protections, but we're trying to get it federally.

And it's actually, I think it's going on the floor soon in Washington.

So as it sits right now, you could be a background actor filming a series and they can say they can give you, they have to give you advance notice that you're going to be scanned and they're going to skip.

They're asking to scan you.

They can scan you if you accept, but you always have the option to say no.

Now they could say then we're not going to use you.

It's the same as nudity.

We have nudity clauses.

If it's in the contract, you say no, I don't accept those, I'm not doing nudity.

Then they could say, well, that's part of the deal.

We don't want you or OK.

Well, the thing that always got me in modeling contracts where it says something like, you know, we have the right to alter, modify, adjust.

I mean, those clauses are long.

They're very long.

And.

Frankly.

Terrifying when you think about putting someone's head on someone else's body or.

But as an artist, I mean.

If it was a really good body, maybe.

Yeah, it's like most have most actors have a rear end per second and you know, a hand second.

We always want to be perfect.

But you know, as artists, we want to work so many times we'll in the past we would, we would accept these kind of things because we just want to work and we don't want to get blackballed.

But it it like they can now scan you.

And if you agree, then they, if they use that scan as a background in the background for scenes that you're not on set, you now get paid a full day's wage.

And for everything they do, you get paid a full taste wage.

And we have people watching and making sure they're following it.

But we have that protection.

Now.

We also have a set of very famous, the sort of top of our union, which by the way, I'm not for those out there.

I'm very famous in my own mind, but not many other people's.

But because I'm the, we're the hard working sort of middle class actors.

But then you have the stars now they can be scanned and they can sell their image and sell their voice and they get paid for it.

And the union can help them negotiate those contracts to make sure they're protected correctly.

And there are many stars doing that right now.

I mean, we've seen that before in commercials when they used Marilyn Monroe in the past and they would go to the whoever handles the Marilyn Monroe estate and they would sign a contract and they would get paid for the use of Marilyn Monroe.

So now under AI, many stars will get scanned, and then they sell that scan to companies to use and get paid quite nicely for it.

And they don't have to go to set and they don't have to sit and make up, and they don't have to be in the rainstorm or the snow to film something.

And they're making money off of their image and they hold it.

You know what I thought was interesting when I saw the aftermath of the Super Bowl commercials?

That the AI commercials did the worst as far as audience response, right?

Yeah, and I was in a Super Bowl commercial this season.

It was very exciting.

Yeah.

I mean, we are fighting constantly for AI protections because they.

I mean, AI is.

I mean, I don't think I know anybody who doesn't use ChatGPT at this point.

I mean, if you're a writer, it saves a lot of time if when I have ideas and I can feed them through and help get a little more clarity and you know, people who don't use it don't understand using ChatGPT is not easy to have it put out something of value.

You almost have to write more for that than you would normally.

You have to, you really have to prompt it with a lot of ideas and a lot of ways and how you want it written to get something that's even mildly usable.

And then you have to and then you take it and then you have to edit and re edit and re.

It's a lot of work.

It's not just how it spits it out And I put it out there.

It's a lot of work and a lot of, but everybody's using it.

The image AI stuff, I mean, six months ago it was terrible.

Here we are six months later.

It's unbelievable.

I watched an entire film made with AI.

Is it perfect?

No, but in four years it will be.

It's going to be perfect in a year.

Which is going to be interesting, you know, renegotiating a contract because wasn't one of the big contract issues, you know, like if someone was redoing an ending or change, you know, doing tests for different endings and they were using AI imagery and the writer and AI for writing the end of the script with a different right approach.

Yeah, there's all of these issues that in our negotiations we tried to cover the Writers Guild tried to cover the directors killed, you know, there's all these that we all tried to get protections.

We all tried to build up protections looking to the future.

That's why we have really good lawyers and really good note negotiators.

And it's a it's really complicated and it's changing day by day.

But I'm and there are people that say the union doesn't do enough.

But I think if you know how the union works, first of all, unions are federally, federally regulated.

There's a lot of rules and laws that we have to follow.

You're very active in the.

Yeah.

So I serve, well, I serve on the LGBTQ committee here in New York and nationally.

I'm on the New York board for SAG after in New York, and I'm an alternate for the national board, although as an alternate you fill in spots.

I've been to every meeting over the past year because lots of people just can't make it out to LA.

So I'm flying to LA in two weeks for the national board meeting.

So I'm involved through the years, most of my work has come through people who believed in me and supported me and helped me have a career.

So at this point in my life, I it.

I believe that mentorship is one of the best things you can do, especially as an artist or in any industry.

I've been mentored through my life.

It's how I learned to produce.

It's how I learned to dance better, sing better, appear on camera better, and so I'm trying to give as much back as I can.

How are you doing that?

Through my work union, I help people teach.

I teach people sort of cabaret classes and how to because that's a very particular art form as opposed to Broadway and all the different art forms.

I'm scheduled, I think next year to to teach through SAG after has a teaching platform to teach There we go again authenticity in acting, our favorite word buzzword because as an actor and to so to have a career.

I try to teach people on having a career and what that means and I always tell them you better love it more than anything.

You better just imagine that you couldn't do anything else otherwise you're not going to.

It's being an artist is as a career is hard and complicated.

Of course.

What is it these days?

There is no guarantees in life, right?

But it's full of rejection and psychologically speaking, you have to be ready.

It's 90 percent, 95% rejection.

And that's hard.

That's hard to live through sometimes, especially if your personal life is in crisis or going through a tough time and then you're being rejected on your work site.

Those two combined can be debilitating.

And I know that I've been through that in my career, but I was scared to death even at 19 when I first stepped on my first real job.

I was scared to death to have to be a waiter or a bartender or work in a department store, and that fueled me to constantly be looking for work, to constantly be better at what I do.

And now it's 48 years later and I'm still working.

Oh my gosh.

You know, that's a credit, that's a credit to perseverance and talent.

One of the things right, you said several times is you've used the word complicated.

If you were mentoring someone, how do you?

What does complicated mean to you in your creative existence?

Well, boy, I think that the better you have a clear sense of who you are.

I think that's one layer that I think people should always figure out first is to really and look when when you're young, you don't.

When you're young, you think you can do anything, right?

And that's what you should be at 22.

You should think you could save the world tomorrow because that's what youth is for, right?

And those are the people who go out there and really fight.

But to be like an actor or a singer, I think you really have to be honest about who you are and what you are.

That doesn't mean that you put yourself in a box, but it's the a place to start.

If you know who you are, then you tend to get a For me, I tend to get a clearer sense of where I want to go and what I want to do and what caught.

Then it becomes what kinds of shows I'd rather do than that.

Like, I chose not to come back to New York.

I went, I got hired by Disney.

I went down to Disney World.

I worked for five years.

I worked.

I was a kid of the Kingdom, which was sort of a faux Mouseketeer kind of a thing.

We did shows, we sang Disney medleys, we did TV specials, traveled around and all that kind of stuff.

It was an amazing training ground, mostly because you're doing 7 shows a day and 90% humidity out in front of a castle and you learn perseverance.

You learn to come out seven times and do a great show and not show that you're about to pass out from the heat.

And it was a great training around ground on being a professional.

And when that was over for many years, I would get simply hired without an audition even because oh, you were a five year.

Oh, you don't.

We don't need to see.

We know you can do this.

And I chose.

Many people went from that and came up to New York and we're on Broadway and I've had great careers.

I chose not to do that.

I chose I grew up here and I, I, I knew actors in my day and I saw the struggle in New York and I decided to go elsewhere.

I worked on cruise ships.

I lived in Denmark for three years, Bermuda for two years, moved to Vegas.

I decided to take a different path and it was because I had a pretty good sense of what I could do at that point in my life and what I wanted to experience.

So that complication that sort of as an artist, what do I do next?

Where do I go?

Do I, am I just going to get online at the next audition and just keep doing that and hope for the best?

Instead, I had, I think, a better, clearer view of my strengths and who I was.

And that led me to different to my different places and to continue to work and never stop.

And that was my choice.

So people say, I can't believe you've never been on Broadway.

And you know, they almost put you down as if, oh, you didn't do Broadway.

Oh, and I often think that's come on, I mean, good for the people on Broadway.

Those people are superheroes.

8 shows a week, dancers, singers.

They have to be like superheroes.

So it's.

Well, you're doing that when you do your one one person show for 11 years now.

I.

Know, right, I mean, I think you take, I would argue you've taken Broadway to the next level.

You're self producing from start to finish, which is phenomenal.

Yeah, I can't wait to catch the next.

Show so I.

Better be on the list of when the of course you know the dates come out.

I'll be the first in line to buy tickets.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I don't know, It's, I think life is complicated, right?

Especially these days, politics or what they were are no matter what side of politics you want, it's all very complicated.

And I, I again, I think I said earlier, I really try to find joy in every day.

So I was just away.

I was down in the Caribbean and I was walking to get a soda or something and I was barking down this winding path.

And it was just beautiful day.

The sun was out.

I was surrounded by all this beautiful foliage.

And there were these orange double hibiscus blooms tucked in all the spaces.

And I just stopped.

And I looked at it and I thought, it's so beautiful what it is.

And I stood there and I just looked around and I put my hands out with my palms up and I just closed my eyes.

And I took a deep breath.

And I said to myself, just you're living in this beautiful world, let's just keep trying to make it beautiful.

I like your thinking and I don't want us to be out of time, but that's my ringtone.

I used the Joey Ramone version of it.

But it's it's a wonderful world because it is.

And I love that you spoke about joy and connecting and accepting and community because those are such huge messages that everyone can benefit from.

Acceptance Authenticity.

You know, but.

It's true, but it's true the more we can truly become who we are ourselves and accept whoever we are, whatever we've been dealt, how we see the world and accept it in ourselves first.

It makes life in general, yeah, better and easier and a little less complicated it.

Brings us great gifts.

Yeah, yeah.

Ray, thank you so much for joining me.

This was a wonderful episode, and I always hate when it's time to say goodbye.

But we have to wrap up.

Of course.

It's a rap, as they say.

Rap, you know, Click, get the.

Well, thank you.

Thank you, thank you.

It's been such a pleasure.

I'm Diane Griselle.

This has been the Silver Disobedience Perception Dynamics podcast.

We've been recording at iconic Manhattan Center where lots of great things happen and including this interview with Ray De Forest, also known as Doris Dear.

So you're going to have to follow him.

There'll be all kinds of links so you can get in touch because he's a treasure and worth staying in touch with.

So please subscribe, share this episode with your friends and thank you again, Ray.

Thank you.

Thanks everyone, see you soon.