Hello, I'm Diane Grissell.

Welcome to the Silver Despedance Perception Dynamics podcast where we explore a variety of operating systems within society.

And today we're operating within Manhattan Center.

So I'm pretty excited to be here because these are iconic studios where some of the greats have either played or performed.

So it's a lot of fun to be here and I, I have a super fascinating guest today.

She is a true entrepreneurial spirit, an athlete and entrepreneur, a real innovator.

Her name's Dale Noel.

She is the founder of True Model Management, and she started as a model and then morphed into owning an agency, and now she's a real fabulous spokesperson for the industry.

And so, Dale, thank you so much for joining me.

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

You know, Dale, one of the things I want to start with right off the bat is I didn't start modeling till I was 56.

And frankly, I'll tell you straight up, I had no idea what a model did the day I was scouted.

So let's start with what's your definition of what is a model?

Because everyone thinks, oh they're so good looking, you should model.

But I would disagree with that statement.

So I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Well, that's a great question because there is a very broad definition these days of what a model is.

Historically, people always think it's a tall, thin runway model or just the gorgeous perfect face on a magazine page.

And nowadays modeling is so much more.

The models, they still have the basic job of showcasing, you know, accessories or you know, fashion.

It could be any type of product or service, but they come in all shapes and sizes and ethnicities these days.

It's been great to watch and to be part of.

When I was a model, it was more cookie cutter and very basic.

If you didn't fit in the mold, it was difficult.

And I was one of those models who didn't exactly fit into the mold, and I just acted myself.

And I don't know, I think it was.

Let's talk about that how you started modeling.

Oh well, I wore many hats in the fashion industry I started.

Let's see, I had a couple of brands that I own starting back in college, but Fast forward there as a production manager, a salesperson traveling around the country, it was the salesperson job that led me to modeling everywhere trade show I was at, I would be asked like, or people just hand me clothes.

I'm like in my booth, like selling, you know, and I've got, you know, department stores there, boutiques and they're like, Oh yes, excuse me, can you put this on?

I'm like, no, I'm working, you know, like I'm working, you know.

So hearing it too many times, I just had the push from a designer work this, she's like, damn, you have to check out modelling.

So I did one day I called top three agencies and management companies in the world and one decided to see me in person and I kind of laughed it off.

I said, OK, great.

If they want to see me in person, I'll go to the meeting and then I'll be over.

I'll go back to business and you know, that's it.

So lo and behold, I got a contract on the spot from the largest agency in the world.

And the next day they were sending me messages.

Can you meet Calvin Klein?

Can you meet Victoria's Secret, The Gap and one other French company?

And I got all of them.

And I was like, wait a minute, like, that wasn't supposed to happen.

And I was like, I have a job anyway.

So I wound up quitting my day job became a model, which is not the usual typical model story, but I kind of got into it by accident.

So I was very lucky and fortunate that way.

I did not think it would last.

I said, you know, maybe I'll do it one year and then we'll see what takes us.

But Fast forward and.

And here you are.

You own a model management company.

What?

What do you think has have been some big shifts from the days you started as a model to today?

Yeah, as you were saying before, the cookie cutter mold is broken.

Nowadays, models are all sizes, shapes, ethnicities and a true model management.

We've represented all of the different types of people before diversity and inclusion became trending, you know, phrases.

And I'm really happy to see how it's opened up and that models now have a voice.

They're not just those, you know, beautiful people walking down the runway or posing with a product.

They bring their life experiences, their services, their charitable works, their personality, you know, their activism.

All different aspects of models life can be brought to the table nowadays, not always on the job, you know, you have to still be the what the client is trying to portray.

So some jobs are a little acting, you know, model that combined with acting to you know, you might have to wear clothes or something that's not your style.

Say, you know, you should still always be your own self on set.

So I don't want to get that wrong.

You shouldn't be faking who you are, but for the ad, you might have your hair styled a way that you wouldn't normally wear it or your makeup done how you wouldn't normally wear it.

So you're still there to be of service to the client.

You know, you mentioned something interesting, all the different things models are involved with, because one of the things I hear casting agents say these days is, well, we want somebody who can model, but the client is also looking for someone who has some other interests.

Have you noticed that as a trend?

Why do you think that is?

Where did that come from?

Is that the Internet and social media or what is that?

Absolutely.

That is a trend that I hope this continues forever because it's been a good part of the business.

But I believe that it started from the Internet.

Like you said, in social media, many models are also influencers, and many influencers now are becoming models so that the industries are crossing and merging and there's more connection there than ever before.

When if I go back into the 80s, there were, we'll call them the supermodels.

Is that a trend you think is happening today or is that trend over?

Are there supermodels today or are there models that are just more popular than those supermodels were?

I think it's all semantics.

I think there were and there were the supermodels and the pack of models that were together and all to at the same shows and in the same ads and the same parties and they travelled in like a a pack.

I don't notice that as much anymore.

And they're not they're not label labeling them as they were in the past.

I think it was more about the labels in the presentation.

There still are popular models, but I think they portray them more, you know, as friends and influencers and different ways so.

When when you look when as a professional who certainly knows the industry far better than most people, you've probably forgotten more more about the modeling industry than most people will ever know.

So there's a variety of different categories of modeling.

There's fit modeling, there's runway as you mentioned, there's commercial, there's print.

What?

How would you classify the different looks that someone might want to think about for themselves if they wanted to model?

Oh, sure.

For modeling, we could start with the classic, the runway or the editorial model.

So these are the models that you're used to seeing with very symmetrical faces, flawless skin, very thin and narrow long legs, toned bodies.

Those models, they are, for a while they were getting away from them and trying to be very diverse on the runway.

It seems like there's a shift back to being more classic runway type of beauties.

There are many people who have that body naturally.

So the sad part is when they're the person does not have that physique naturally and they'll starve themselves to try and be that.

So I think that's where some dangers lie when people are saying, oh, that's not attainable.

It's like for some people, they're naturally like that.

I've met many of them, but others, you know, suffer greatly trying to attain that.

So my advice for people want to be a model like find who you are, define who you are, what feels good and healthy to you and be the best version of yourself and then find your place.

Not say I want to be a runway model and like I did some runway, but I was always the biggest and the shortest and you know, they would look at me and be like, but I had huge clients and you know, depending who, you know, sometimes you can get into shows just because who knows you And like they're like, oh, we want to see her because all of them are too skinny.

You know, let's throw her in there.

So I kind of was a plus model sort of for some of the print and runway in the very early 90s.

And I was like a slim athletic size 6.

But you know, standing at 5, eightish and having broad shoulders, you know, they said Cindy Crawford was so big back then and I looked enormous.

Next time I was just like, OK, well, there's something wrong with that picture here.

But to get back to the types of models, though, you hit on a lot of them, yes, their lifestyle commercial models who do a lot of e-commerce and they sell everyday products.

There are athletic, you know, fitness models.

So if you have the physique and you love working out and our bigger muscles and definition than most, that might be an Ave.

for you.

If you're, you know, a size 18 woman or a big and tall man, you know, you could be in the plus or you know, big and tall type of work parts modelings and don't look at my hands, but you have beautiful hands or feet or hair like you.

I'm sure you must have done hair modeling, you know.

The number one thing I got hired there.

You go beautiful eyes, lips, you know, So there's a whole industry just in parts, you know, there's maternity models, there's pretty much everything.

So I think if you just find what you feel makes you shine and then seek managers or agents or even clients directly, whatever works for your lifestyle and your business.

You know, that is such good advice because so many people will call me up and say my daughter or my son or I want to be a model.

And my first question is, do you understand what a model is and what they do?

And that your job is not to have one pose, but to that minute that camera turns on, you need to come alive.

You need, you need to make this cup feel like it is the most nice.

You.

Have ever touched in your life and whatever's in it is liquid, you know the elixir of a health or energy or whatever and you know it's not that one pose it's not that one look which you see a lot on let's say Instagram or social media where there's always you know the one face the perfect I'm going to I believe this side of my face looks good.

So every picture is going to be on this.

I remember getting yelled at by my first photographer on a shoot for Amazon and Oprah.

And the photographer, first of all, at 56, I was cast as the chic 70 year old, which was the first funny part.

And then I was so nervous.

And he says to me, he goes, OK, I realize you think this particular angle on your face is your best, but now could you give me your whole face?

That's so funny.

Yes, you are spot on.

I mean, part of what we were talking about before about personality and bringing that, that is part of modeling because your personality and your life needs to come through the lens and you need movement.

So some dancers, you know, are phenomenal on the camera.

Just naturals are gracefully pick that mug up and and knowing your angles.

And a lot of people don't realize with modeling how much work it really is.

I mean, there are naturals who just go in from the camera and they become someone's muse right away and instant, you know, fame that has happened.

But 99% of the rest of us that you know, have to learn the angles, you know, because I got in through one division of modeling, the fit modeling production part.

But from there is how I got into print and runway and all of the other.

And I had to really, really work at all the types of modeling and their different skills.

It's different, you know, you need to do your homework, you need to be present and professional.

I think people that think, oh, you know, my daughter's beautiful or my son is gorgeous, you know, they could be models.

It's like that could very well be absolutely, but it depends.

Is this the type of personality that wants to put the work in and has the resilience, you know, for all the rejection And then like, go back to the drawing board, like you said, change your face.

Show me more.

It's like, OK, you have to be willing to be in front of the camera and in front of the mirror all the time.

Well, you know that in front of the mirror.

It's so funny.

I remember when I was first signed, the agency brought me in and they said, OK, you know, we realize, you know, you're 56, everyone's going to assume you know what you're doing when you walk on because they're going to assume you've done this your whole life, but you haven't.

So we're going to assign 2 models who've been around a long time and both of them were Brazilian and they moved like dreams had started when they were 13 and we're both in their early 30s.

And I'm like, and my wildest dreams, I'm never going to be as fluid as these two girls were.

And then I remember it's like, no, what?

You know that to make that jump movement, you're going to step and step back and you're going to step and step.

You know the little tricks of the trade.

Or when you do your first beauty campaign and you're waiting for them to send you to wardrobe or something, and all they do is change your shirt and you're standing in front of the beauty stand and you're supposed to just know how to move your hands in certain ways.

You know, to not make your hands look like claws, which is so easy to do.

Hands are so hard.

Oh my gosh, how hard are hands?

Especially if they're not.

Oh my God.

And as I've gotten older I'm like, I really notice how hard hands are as I put mine onto the.

Table.

I did a Sally Hansen commercial one day and they're like, you know, can you bring your hands over here?

We need some close-ups.

And I'm like, Oh my God, Are you sure you want my?

They did make it into the campaign.

I was shocked.

There you go.

No, I don't think so.

But it it was interesting to see just the angles of just when somebody is trying to just get your hands taken.

And when you do talk to those hand models who do nothing but wear gloves pretty much 24 hours and are have the most soft moisturized hands, the perfect manicures 24/7.

Such a business.

Wow.

I was friends with one.

It was unbelievable.

By the way, it affects your life to keep those hands.

And you know, posing, you know, one of the things I was well, actually before posing, when people say what are things I should do?

I the first thing I say, well, are you aware you're going to need to get some pictures to an agency without any makeup on?

And that's usually the first harsh, the first reality check talk about how different brands are how or you as a model management firm, the idea of, you know, you're selling a product, you are selling that face, that, that look, that body to a client.

And what let's say Ralph Lauren might buy might not be what Diane von Furstenberg might buy or or Eileen Fisher or any other brand or Lululemon, because they all have a look to some degree.

So how, how do you explain that to people?

Yeah, we explained that to people just by saying bring your uniqueness.

You know, there is a place for almost everyone and if there isn't yet, let's carve that niche and bring it to the fashion or the modelling or the advertising industry.

So I feel like the people who especially nowadays where they don't conform to the cookie cutter look and try to fix everything about their teeth or fix everything about, about, you know, their hair, whenever it is that uniqueness, there are many brands who say, Oh, we want that tooth gap or we want that, you know, you know, very full hair or we want whatever it might be, anything unique is so sought after these days.

So people that were ashamed of something about themselves or felt like, Oh, I look like different than everybody else.

I, I don't feel left out.

It's like, now's your time to shine.

So isn't that?

True when I love when I walk, weather wherever I am.

And billboards vary throughout the city.

So if you're in the Lower East Side, the brands that choose the certain kind of billboard there is different than the Billboard you might see in Times Square or outside of Madison Square Garden on the rotating billboards.

It's so funny how different brands choose their neighborhood for their ad.

Smart it is.

Smart cater to the clients or the customers.

Yeah.

And it's fascinating to see today the different looks, whether it's the ethnicities, the hair, the skin tones, the the teeth, the I mean everything, the sizes, the shapes.

Tattoos like some will not go near.

We're like we need clean palette.

No, not a speck on the skin.

And others are like, show me the craziest tattoos or we want to see a scar.

We want to see, you know, we hear everything.

So that makes it a lot more interesting and challenging for our job as model managers too, because before you're always looking for almost the same type, you know, and you still need a certain amount of each type, but it's, it's more interesting nowadays and you not need to work with a lot more people.

So if someone said they wanted to model, I would tell them get used to standing in front of a mirror for a bit.

What would you say about that?

Absolutely in front of mirror, in front of the camera.

Have everyone take pictures of you and really do your homework and analyze those pictures and seek the advice of, you know, any professional that you personally know, whether it's a photographer or a manager or someone who's a model themself.

I mean, the best lessons I got a lot were on the job working with other models.

Like you were saying, the the models you worked with, you know, you're watching how they move.

I did the same exact thing.

You try and emulate the basic principles and the movements of the best you know.

So get used to watching those models on you know, the Internet and and come up with your own unique way of doing things.

But to see what works and doesn't work with a lot of trial and error or working with professionals so.

You know, it's it's so true what you're saying.

I found it so I learned more on set from photographers, not only also the models that have been around a long time.

Like, I remember being on set with Pat Tracy, who's, you know, been a model for forever and she's stunning.

And she's, you know, late 60s, maybe 70 now.

And we had to do something together.

And she'd say, Diane, whatever.

I do count to 2 and then you do the exact move.

She goes that way.

We're never doing the same thing at the same time.

Just study what I'm doing and then you do it.

You do your version.

That's so nice of her.

It was so nice and the pictures came out great.

Now I think it was a big Keurig campaign as we're both having this great conversation over our cup of coffee in the morning.

But if it wasn't for her being so generous teaching me that, or if I think of the photographers, you know, that would say just different things, like often starting with relax.

Which is a funny.

Word like just, you know, have fun.

You know, we're just relaxing here.

We're having we're moving.

But so much has to do with getting used to looking at your, as you said, your angles in a mirror and what looks right.

Yes, I'm being comfort, comfortable and confident.

Confidence is huge.

I mean that you walk in the door.

I've been behind the scenes many times when the major designers are casting and seeing their faces, their reaction, then who gets chosen?

It's like that first, second when you walk in the door.

That is almost everything.

And you've got to walk in without being arrogant, but as if you, you know, command the attention and deserve it and you're just a joy to be around and you have confidence.

You know you need to exude confidence.

You know you are a a great spokesperson for the industry and looking at you, I kidded you about your delts, but I wasn't kidding.

I was genuinely jealous.

I mean, a good pair of delts are awesome, especially on a woman who's fit, lean.

I've seen you in fancy outfits.

I've seen you in casual clothes.

You personify that, you know be a healthy person.

Weren't that part of your being developed from?

Were you always that way or did it come about?

Well, I have a long history of medical issues and near death experiences, and that's a whole other other podcast.

But yeah, health was always a big topic and the house I grew up in and for me especially, it was usually focused around me.

Like the house got to be healthy, you know, and I was always, my father was an advocate of a calisthenics.

They called it calisthenics back then, working out.

And I was a gymnast and a competitive baton twirler and a dancer and exercise was, you know, part of our daily routine.

And if there wasn't like formal exercise, my dad would be like, OK, put on my Army boots, grab those weights, go up and down the stairs.

Like we, it was like work camp at my house.

You know, I'm, I'm first generation American.

He's from Italy, so we have that.

Army boots going up and down.

Literally did that.

I was a little kid, so and then everything was manual labor growing up.

And I thought it was like, Oh my gosh, because we're so poor, you know, it was like, we have to do everything.

So we made things from scratch.

We had in our basement a wood shop, a metal shop.

If you thought of it, go make it.

If it breaks, you learn how to fix it.

You know, we were composting and we were recycling everything.

My grandmother with her glass jars.

And I'm just like my little, I'm like the little grandma now, you know, saving my good glass jars from, you know, a jam or whatever it is.

But getting back to your thing, everything in our house, you know, the toy we had, you know, I got a soccer ball.

We were at the soccer growing up.

So it was like, OK, this is your soccer ball for life.

So here's a jar of saddle soap and every day you're saddle soaping your ball.

You know, I loved baseball.

It was like you got to my dad was so big on saddle soap.

So it was like that wax on, wax off everything.

Every toy we had, we were like ocean saddle soap, everything.

He's he ruined my first expensive couch I bought when I was modeling and ruined it with saddle soap.

Like, what are you doing?

But the point is, everything we did was hard manual labor.

We would paint the house, We'd climb up on the ladders, go on the roof.

We'd cut the tree down.

You know, we were sawing.

We were.

So we learned how to do a lot of the jobs that people hire people to do.

But it made all of us really strong.

And then just it kind of stayed with us.

And my dad made working out fun.

So we didn't know that carrying all those cement bags to and from the car because we were going to do this, you know, or the soil, you know, we did the garden yourself.

I used to mow the lawn and push a manual lawn, you know, So I was always so strong and my sister too, and my brother and yeah, So it just is ingrained in US.

And when people see me nowadays, I'm always like, you know, at the grocery store, they'll be like delivery, right?

I'm like, I'm good.

I'm going to like, light them up.

And I'm just like walking home like, so I don't really have a formal workout right now, but my life, you know, I'll take the stairs instead of taking the elevator in many situations.

I'll carry everything.

I'm always lugging things.

So I think the arms come from everything that I just carry every day.

I love this.

So you really just made it big Fit is just a part of your life.

Yeah, that's the only way at this point.

We're in the past since I've had true, that's been the way it's working for me.

But I just formally started.

I did go to the gym this past week and I'm registering for a registered for triathlon.

So I am going to start training or I did just start.

So I'm on I'm on my journey.

And you know, many years I was a trainer.

I was a physical trainer in my 20s and on and off and a little older and a health coach.

And the health coaching that was, I think it's stemmed from, you know, I had to deal with so many health issues and I was friends with so many doctors and I'm, you know, no stranger to hospitals.

So I was doing it to deepen my own understanding and practice of my own body and self.

And then when I went through my certification program, I realized like, oh, I could help other people.

You know, it was kind of, I knew I could, but then so I did it for a short while helping other people through health coaching.

And now I lean on the knowledge to casually help people.

I don't really do it as a business now, but I do want to get more into the health and lifestyle and Wellness business because people keep asking for it and there's such a need so.

Well, you have a lot of areas in your life where you have explored.

We we were talking one day a couple of months ago and you mentioned, you know, refinishing furniture.

And now I know this story about your father and the saddle soap.

Yeah.

We have to refinish furniture.

Yeah, I've always recycled, repurpose and now it's trending.

So we if, if this if I was growing up today, I'd be like the cool kid, you know, but I love all that Yes.

And whenever I get more time, I would love to that to work that into my business as well.

How?

How are your days divided You You travel, you have your management model, management company, you have these.

Passions.

How do you fit lots of in passions?

I let's see.

I don't sleep as much as most people I believe, but besides that, I would say I usually group things together either whether it's location or topic to get a few things done at once is one thing that I do As far as my day, every day is totally different.

I do travel a lot and I usually I'm always working when I'm travelling.

Some people are like, oh, you're on vacation again, I'm like not exactly, but you know, I am travelling.

So I would say I I've learned to delegate a lot.

I have to say I do a lot every day.

But at true now I pretty much oversee all the problems come to me.

So I'm always dealing with the lawyers, the accountants and the issue that comes up.

It's very time consuming.

So a lot of my day really is on the phone in the emails, you know, putting on my lawyer hat to redline contracts because I'm very much an advocate and supporter and protector of the models.

So contracts that we get at the last minute before a job.

I've, you know, many people might or other people might just so sign it.

Like I read everything.

I'm like, I don't like that.

They're like, Nope, not allowed to make client might be like not allowed to make changes.

I'm like, let me talk to the general counsel.

Let's see what we can do here.

You know, so I'm always trying to improve things.

So I, I get very involved and passionate, sometimes maybe more than I, I need to.

So I would say my days are divided up.

I love in person meetings.

I love, I still work one-on-one.

Whoever the model is that comes to me and says, you know, I'd like to work with you one-on-one.

I need some training, I need some guidance.

I make myself available.

I like to do it in person as much as possible.

So that's takes time.

That's one of my most most enjoyable parts of my job.

If not, it's a oom call or a phone call.

And I also I hire unbelievable people.

The team a true model management is incredible.

So they pretty much run the day-to-day.

I do my check insurance.

They come to me with problems, needs, tools that you know have to be put in place and figure out the overall overall organization.

So I'm very much the a visionary and always have been.

So I think that's the best place for me.

I.

Said a lot of things that raise so many questions I'm.

Trying to keep like did I even answer your question because I can Babble a.

Lot sometimes you, you answered it beautifully, but OK, one question anyone watching this would be curious about how, how does somebody go about becoming a model today?

Today Becoming a model there are many avenues to become a model you can apply online either to a model manager, agency or directly to clients and brands you see that you like through social media.

A lot happens just Dming and most managers, agents have an online presence on their website where you can submit your photos.

And if you're doing that route, I would suggest to take very clean, like you said, no makeup or very little makeup and you know, fitted outfit or a swimsuit front, side back photos and less is usually more.

If you have some professional pictures to put in there with those, what they call digitals, the front, side back pictures, that's great.

But they really want to see who you are and what the client will be delivered, like the clean palette, so the client knows what they have to work with.

You know, if you want to put a special note in there, that's great.

They'll usually want your body measurements, clothing size.

You can attend networking events to meet people in the industry.

It depends on your personality and style and the approach that you want to take.

Because modeling is a business.

So I think sometimes people lose sight of that.

Oh, I want to be a model.

And I think like, I'm just going to step into glamour.

You're not.

You know, I, I cannot tell you how many and I'm not the person to do it.

You know, it's not like I have, you know, I mean, you've done, I've done some really big campaigns, but I'm, it's not like I have some longevity career and modeling like so many people do.

But I I feel terrible when I say to somebody, wait a second, you know you're going to have to wash your face.

You know.

You're going to have to wash your face.

They're going to want to see, as you said, what they're buying because and it's so funny because I've done campaigns where I've looked at the after pictures or even funnier when my husband or kids are and they said didn't they like maybe want to touch that up a little, you know, and I'll say, well, you know, they wanted me to be the 70 year old.

Grandmother in that.

Campaign and then there'll be other ones where, you know, it's like, yeah, I wish I could walk around looking like that all the time because it looks nothing like me.

But, you know, I look like somebody took 20 years off because not only was the makeup perfect, the hair stylist was amazing.

The clothes were cool and chic, you know, and then somebody touched it up amazingly in the air in post production.

So it's so funny.

But the first, the first hurdle, it fascinates me how many people are the first pictures when they'll say, well, could you could you help me get something to an agency I like?

Well, send me a couple of pictures with no makeup on.

They either have make up or they've been totally photoshopped.

Yeah.

Or filtered, yes.

Well, the one key though, lighting.

Lighting is everything.

So in addition to learning your angles, the lighting's even or almost just as important or even more important sometimes I feel because like you don't want this light coming over you casting a shadow on every line or bag under your eyes, whatever it is.

So the pictures that you send, try to find the best natural lighting you absolutely can with a clean light or white background without clutter from your house all over.

Like I would work on that location and the lighting.

Yeah, that location, I get a lot of pictures from bathrooms.

I'm like, OK, can you find a white wall?

Can you or even a brick wall?

Go out on the street, find a brick wall, a door.

You can stand in front of his.

Better, probably than the toilet in the background.

I agree and usually bathroom lighting is not the best.

Exactly.

You do want to shine the best light on yourself before you take those pictures.

And you don't have to wear a swimsuit in the street if you're going to do you know the background.

You could wear fitted jeans, a tank top or a black or any color fitted tank top and legging something that they can at least see your shape.

I mean swimsuits grey so you can see the skin tone and everything.

But you could start with the shape if you want to do it outside and you're not comfortable standing your bathing suit somewhere.

And as and as you say, you know, there are possibilities everywhere.

Another thing like I know I would say to people, look, go through magazines and try to figure out which brands you think absolutely you could imagine yourself in.

I mean, Victoria's Secret's not hiring me to walk down a runway, not today and frankly not ever, you know, well.

That might be your choice, but they might be looking for you.

No, I do have pride, but you know, it's like knowing.

But that's an interesting point too.

It might be their choice, which is a big thing.

That's that's a very interesting point to keep in mind.

Not as far as Victoria's Secret with me.

We're not talking about that, but I'm talking about in general.

But it does.

Would you encourage people who say they want to model, you know, look through magazines, figure out what brands seem like you blend with?

Yeah, I think any research you can do on the industry that you want to get into.

As I said before, modeling is a business.

So the more homework you do from every angle aspect, you know, go to the stores, try all the clothes, look at what they have hanging in the store, look at the billboards, look at the online ads, magazine ads, absolutely.

And and see the way they're posing to, you know, the way they dress themselves.

Because when you go to a client, you want to, you know, bring across the side of you that is most like their customer, if that's what they're looking for.

Or, you know, some people, some clients hire or some brands hire because they want to change what they're doing and they want to hire you as the muse to look like your own personality and bring that to their brand.

But more often than not, it's like they're bringing you in to portray their brand.

So it definitely helps to look and practice emulating everything.

You know, you were talking earlier about you go through all the contracts and you're looking at all, you know, these red lines and well, you know, we need to discuss this.

One of the things that I hear so many models talking about is and actors, and we and I interviewed the chief correspondent of Variety not too long ago.

We were talking about the impact of AI on the world of modeling and acting and writing and, and all aspects of entertainment in many ways.

How are you finding that's impacting the world of modeling?

I'm so glad you brought this point about AI because in the very early 1990s, I was approached by one of my client clients who's a major brand that everybody knows.

They wanted to scan my body.

I was in a lot of the early meetings and I would see on the screen someone else's body at the time or a computer generated body and they were, you know, showing every angle this 3D and they asked to scan me.

We talked about, you know, rates and how it would work.

There were no laws about how my IP, my intellectual property or my likeness would be protected and who would own it.

So since I believe it was 1991, I have been, I could have bought a nice house by this point.

I think the lawyers that I have hired just so I can have conversations about, you know, what the laws are, what other areas and businesses have similar case studies that you can share with me and what can we do?

I've talked to companies about tagging and tracking photos.

I mean, early on when I was a print model before there was AI, they a client, a major brand that people know.

I was doing all their swimsuit catalogs, and a year after my usage was paid for and wasn't my job anymore, another designer found my body all throughout the catalog with suits I never tried on.

And that was like a old fashioned kind of photoshopping.

And I was like, that's not me.

I didn't do the job.

I didn't wear that suit.

And I wasn't even thinking like, you could change it online, you know, this is like 1991 and you could do it then.

It was a little more work, but she pointed out a beauty mark on my body and I'm like looking.

I'm like, she's put her on picture and like that isn't me.

Anyway, we approached the company within a day or two that all the bodies were changed because it was unrecognizable that that particular one.

It was like like catalog showing each style.

So that was my first encounter with someone infringing on and not paying me for work that I did.

And that's why I've stayed with it until now.

And I'm glad you brought it up because there's the Fashion Workers Act.

I'm not sure if you've heard about it or not that big in our industry and.

I'm really grateful for all the people that are been so dedicated and worked so hard to bring a Fashion Workers Act to be law.

It was signed in December.

It goes into effect in June.

And Sarah Ziff and Model Alliance, her advocacy group, brought that to the table with, I believe is Susan Scafidi, who's a professor at Fordham University.

And the senator that brought it to the legislators was or is Brad Hoylman Siegel.

So I commend all of them.

It's just such a huge feat and undertaking, and they worked so hard to do it.

And I'm happy there's a law.

All the honorable managers that I know are happy about it.

Models are happy about it, but I have to tell you, I've been talking to legislators directly also for the past two years as a voice for the boutique model managers and also in conversations with a group of the major model managers and agencies.

And I was bringing to light all of my experience because I was a independent model without a manager.

I was with the biggest agency in the world and I manage models.

I used to own brands, so he's a higher models.

So I feel like, and I think the groups that I was talking everything like, well, you've kind of done most of what we're talking about here, like all the stakeholders in this loss.

So I really feel first hand the needs, the pain points and the benefits for each party involved in this law.

And I have to say I'm really disappointed in the law because it lacks clarity.

Definitions are not accurate.

They're putting huge burdens and penalties on managers for things that are out of their control.

There is no, there's nothing said about timely payments.

That's like the biggest, biggest thing for me as a model.

I think I was about five years in of model.

I was modeling for five years at this point and I got a negative $50,000 on my check in December on my statement.

And I was like, what is this?

And I thought up until that point, you know, I, I was one of the top producers.

I was a really successful model and I worked every day, all day, all the time, morning till night or the wee hours in the morning, weekends a lot of times this negative $50,000 on my check.

I thought it was a typo.

I went to the manager and they're like, Nope, that's right.

We didn't get paid for that.

That was, you know, Barney's and another big French, another company that they defaulted.

They didn't pay.

We closed the books.

I was like, wait, how long was I not paid?

Because I back then the top models got advance money.

Now it's impossible to advance the money.

Like managers and agents couldn't stay in business because we're not finance companies.

So I.

I learned that happily and to that degree.

It was quite shocking.

So from that day on, literally I would just listen to my messages of where I was going to work tomorrow and like never talk to my book.

Any call that I had time to make to the management company was to accounting department.

And every time I would get a new client I said OK.

Who do they pay their bills?

How are they paying?

You know, they were my best friend.

They knew me so well.

And I would stick up for all the models there, too because I was like, OK, listen, we're going to be in solidarity here.

They owe four other models at our company, our management company.

Like you tell this big designer, I'm not going until they pay everybody.

So there were jobs that I turned down.

And then I learned I cherry picked all the accounts at that point because I went through everyone's finances.

That's when I started like I was always a business, business minded person that had businesses before I modeled.

But then I really got into like the accounting side.

I was like, this is ridiculous.

Like they can't get away with this.

And then there were there were jobs or clients that did go Chapter 11 or Chapter 7.

And I would, if they had a store, I would tell them that I'm coming to the store and I'm taking two or three or four times the amount that you owe me and clothes or something, you know, like I would just come up with the creative ways.

I can't wonder with nothing.

And there was a counter 2, not the big ones that I told you about, but there was a counter 2 that I went to them when my manager gave up and we worked out something where they were paid me slowly and maybe it wasn't in full, but I got something, you know, so, so I feel really strongly impassioned about this with our models.

I've, I've sat outside president's doors, like being a little too loud, probably.

I've got some projection in my voice.

And I was like, I'm not leaving.

So you pay true model management.

You owe the models.

Do you have to pay me?

I have my mother like the car, the getaway, you know, I was just like, this is so not right.

So I was so excited for this law.

Let me go, go back.

I was so excited for this law because I'm like, oh, we'll get paid.

The first draft of the bill, I believe it was had.

Oh yeah, model managers will pay in 30 days.

We're like, we can't pay if we're not paid, if you're not paid.

Exactly.

We are, you know, our clients are the models and our clients are the brands and we're A-Team.

We all work together so.

It's it's truly unbelievable when you see the 60 to 90 to 120 days on on payment.

Unbelievable.

And then if they pay and the way you're then it goes through the modelling agency, you know, or the manager and then they want to make sure the check clear.

Yeah, you know, So then then the model pay before if they see it in four or five months.

It's really, and it's crazy.

No, it is ridiculous.

And absolutely by all means this law is great because, you know, people who are the ones committing wrongdoings and breaking laws, they should be penalized and punished.

But there are no enforcement protocols in it.

And they're putting most of the the burdens and penalties I said on the wrong on the wrong.

Party, I mean, I have had multiple times where a hair care company or different companies have used my image without permission.

I've won.

I've won three.

Good for you.

Claims for that but you have to I have a great lawyer for that fact.

He's the top just won the top entertainment agency in Hollywood.

So Robert Darwell, that's a plug for you because I mean Shepard Mullen, yeah, I mean his team is unbelievable and he's been great with you know, and but you know you have the expense you have to put out you know you have to lay out money to get the money that you were owed in the 1st place.

You know when somebody steals your image and I just had one where someone took my face.

Apple News and I don't mind saying Apple News right out because I'm livid about it there.

And it was all my followers on social media that, you know, sending the notes.

I got bombarded.

Oh, can't believe it.

You're the you're all over my Apple News today.

You're all over my Apple News.

Yeah, it's me in a car in a great Mustang that I've never been in, but it's absolutely me.

And you know, when I went and contacted my attorney on that, he said, well, you got to find your exact image that would show that it was used.

I'm like, I don't know what the exact image was, but everyone in the world knows it's me in that ad and I was.

It's not paid for it.

It's not me.

Someone cut and chopped my head into it.

It's inferior.

Thank you so much for bringing that up.

And the topic was AI And now the way I was envisioning it when they wanted to scan me and use my digital like this, like this is a great new revenue stream for models.

This is going to enhance our business.

Once a model can't work anymore, they can just, you know, sell their likeness.

And I've worked with many companies.

I beta tested so many programs and been in the works with tagging and tracking.

There's one company with a patent is pending and they're going to call me right when it comes through because I can't wait that we can track these.

I have so many ideas of what we could do and work with the models, work with the clients.

We only feel like sit together.

So there are advocacy groups and media, which is great to amplify things, but I feel like they've been separating everyone and I just want to unite everyone to hear what everyone has to say.

There's so many great ideas out there, not only my ideas.

And I want everyone to be heard and really make a positive change together because the models, the managers, the brands, we're A-Team.

You know, it's not like, oh, model against your manager, managers against your clients.

It's like they need to see what we go through.

And I think high levels, especially of brands don't understand the nuances in the inner workings of a models life of a manager's life.

You know, we're just, we're just little numbers on the page to most of them who are making the decision.

So I would love to sit down with some of the big brands and companies like Google and companies, you know, all the social media platforms and talk to them because this is what you're talking about, the tracking of the images.

This happens to us every single day.

And it's usually a model's friend or family or themselves saying, oh, I just saw a billboard of me.

I just saw a hangtag of me in a store and wait, that was five years ago.

It happened to us.

I mean, it happens all the time.

But there was one particular story, a model that said, oh, I'm all over this one store that I worked for five years ago.

The usage was up three or more years ago.

And one of the the things about our industry too is it's not like that client was the one to call our company to hire the model.

It was the casting director who hired the production company, who hired A photographer who so it took us.

So we talked about what I do all day.

That's one of the things it took me a year.

It took me the year to track down this one job.

When we finally got to the level of the brand, and it's a major brand, everybody knows this one.

They were like, oh, OK, yes, an oversight or whatever it was.

There's your check for five years of usage.

Great.

But that's one in how many jobs per day?

And it's like you have to catch them.

And I'm going through that every single day more and more and more.

So that's a lot of what I do every day actually, and is with this AI because it's, it'll be so incredible if it was ethical practices and there was transparency.

And you know, I suggested to some clients, can you please just send us the final image or just raw pictures of everything you took of that model like we know you?

Often don't see the final language you never.

Know it's are you using it or not I.

Never know what's going to appear.

I can never see.

Always someone who points out, but Oh my gosh, we could keep going.

Oh yeah, out of time.

Oh really?

And this I know the time wise when we're having fun, but really this is a topic I would love to explore.

Yeah, because I think so much stuff.

Drill down in it.

Yeah, yeah.

And I would love to.

And I think you're a great spokesperson for it because you've been through every aspect in the industry and you you really understand what's at stake and the costs and the, and the chain.

Yeah, of.

Where that money's getting lost.

Yes, yes, yes.

And not just the money.

Yeah.

And so my biggest thing is I really want to unite the fashion industry, the model, especially right now, it's really urgent that the models, the managers and the advocacy groups and the brands and the lawyers, the legislators, like we all come together.

That's why I started putting together some sessions.

I'll be speaking at Berkeley College.

I talked to Berkeley College.

So May 8th, we're having a whole discussion to try and push this forward, maybe make some amendments to the Fashion Workers Act.

And you know, we want to invite everyone so everyone could really be educated because I feel like there's a lack of education in our industry.

And the more educated you are and the more people you bring together, the more ideas and the better we can make in the world.

Well, thank you so much, Dale.

This was such a good conversation.

I've been talking with Dale Noel.

She is the founder of True Model Management.

Thank you so much for all your insight, the education, your knowledge and your energy.

Thank you, Diane, I'm so happy to be here.

Can't wait to continue the conversation.

Yes, same here.

I'm Diane Grissell, the Spin the Silver Disobedience podcast we're recording at iconic Manhattan Center and I want to thank you for watching.

All of Dale's information is going to be below this podcast.

So you can follow her, you can get in touch, you can pay attention to all the good things she's doing and cause a bunch of links will be there to find her.

And please hit subscribe and share this with your friends.

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