Hello everyone.

I'm Diane Grissell.

I'm also known as Silver Disbedience.

If you follow my blog, this is the Silver Disbedience Perception Dynamics podcast where we interview really cool people and let me tell you, you're not going to be disappointed.

Today, my guest is Jack Vaughn, who's in charge of comedy programming at SiriusXM.

He is an icon in the comedy space who's been behind the scenes.

And you might not know who he is, but you certainly know a lot of the talent he worked, has worked with.

And we're going to be talking about comedy as a cultural force and as a societal temperature taker and also pressure release valve.

So thank you, Jack, for joining me.

Thanks.

For having me, Diane, great to see you.

OK, comedy.

I love comedy, and apparently you do too.

Who doesn't?

Well, you know, we could say some people are losing their sense of humor, but we won't go there yet.

Fair enough, fair enough.

How'd you come to comedy?

So I was running independent music labels for about a decade prior to to getting the business and I had always been a fan of comedy.

And the record label I was running was the independent label of the modern swing movement.

If you remember that being hit for about 13 minutes in the mid to late 90s and we were doing great.

But one day in, I think it's mid 99, the whole world realized they were tired of swing and the phone stopped ringing and we couldn't sell another album.

And so I had always been a big fan of comedy, had comedy records growing up.

And I saw this guy Mitch Hedberg on I think it was Premium Blend and he had a joke where he goes.

I got a roll of Lifesavers in my pocket and I can't wait.

So I messed that up.

I, I, I, I'm doing a disservice to Mitch and I can't do that.

So he goes, I can't wait to get off stage because I got a roll of lifesavers in my pocket and the next one is Pineapple.

And it was like that What he had self released an album and I found it online and I got it and I memorized it.

And I couldn't believe that there was something that good that wasn't distributed, that wasn't out there.

People didn't know about it.

So I basically approached Comedy Central with the idea of starting a record label.

Now you got to remember that at that time, comedy records weren't really a thing.

No one was putting them out.

Yeah, I can't think of any.

Yeah.

And it was a real challenge because we had to convince stores to put them in, We had to convince the artists to do them.

And so basically approached Comedy Central with the idea of starting this label and they were kind of hesitant at 1st and.

What year would this have been about?

This is 2001 and I look young now, but imagine me like 25 years younger.

I should have been having a propeller hat and a holding a balloon.

And so I, I didn't this, this face doesn't carry much gravitas, but the, I, I sort of pitched them and pitched them for nine months.

There was a woman there who was head of business development named Holly Lim.

And she, she got it.

And I don't, I don't think she necessarily believed in me, but I believe in the concept.

And so they said after nine months, like we'll give you a little money to try this.

Come, come to New York.

And so I came back to New York and started it.

And while it was challenging because I had to do everything I did the, the marketing and the ANR and the artwork and the like and the, you know, accounting and all this stuff, it was really great because no one was doing comedy records for the most.

And was Mitch the first one you tested this with?

He was one of them.

So the first people we signed were Bobcat Goldthwait, Dave Attell, Jim Breuer, Dane Cook, Mitch.

And there there were a handful.

And the Comedy Central had ATV show at the time called Crank Yankers.

It was a prank call show, or I think they they like they insist on calling it a crank call show with puppets reenacted by puppets.

And no one was planning to put out the audio.

So like, oh, people like prank call records.

So I put out the prank call record and it did great.

And that was a really auspicious start because it gave us a little momentum as we were going into this.

And so had to go out to all of the record stores and say like hey, you should have these, right?

Because at the time people didn't know names of comedians.

They just know like oh, Mitch Hedberg is that long haired guy with the aviator glasses does the 1 liners.

So we had to spend a ton of money buying, pricing and positioning at stores to get people's faces out.

These comedians faces out because if they had to go to the cobweb basement of the store to find the comedy section, even if there was a comedy section, it's just impossible to find.

But if you can bring it up to the front of the store, people go like, oh, I recognize that guy from Letterman, I'm going to buy this.

And we had to price them very aggressively, just like real cheap.

But it started to build and it started to build and build and build.

And within nine months, I think the label was profitable.

And within three years we were top five independent label.

And one of the best parts about it is that we got to advertise the records on TV because Comedy Central had remnant ad space that they couldn't sell.

So we got millions of dollars in free advertising by putting these on on television.

And the comedians had stand up specials on Omni Central.

So we can put lower thirds in saying like, oh, get so and so's CD in stores now.

And it was just fantastic because it was contextualized.

If you're watching that special, chances are you're going to want to buy the album.

And so, yeah, it was great.

And got to do the, you know, the first records from people like Jim Gaffigan, Amy Schumer, Anthony Jesslik, Daniel Tosh, Aziz Ansari, John Mulaney, the the list goes on and on.

And it was, it was a really fun time to be there because it was it was really kind of Wild West.

And there was all this talent who is so good and just kind of bubbling under the surface because we were coming off the observational comedy bust of the late 90s.

And there was this kind of.

That's an interesting phrase.

The observational comedy bust.

Yeah, it's sort of like the the talking about how bad airline food is, you know, the kind of what we now consider hacky premises.

And what I wanted to do with the label at that point was kind of recontextualize it because you had this notion of comedians in T-shirts and Blazers with the sleeves rolled up on a stool in front of a brick wall.

And I really wanted these to look like punk rock records because, you know, the the people that were coming up were really doing interesting, edgy stuff.

And a lot of the, the sort of mindset on comedy didn't reflect that.

And so it was edgy and interesting and dangerous and super funny and original.

And I wanted to convey that in in the packaging and kind of help change the conversation a little bit around what comedy was.

And, and yeah, and it, you know, the the comedy scene has just exploded because there was so much great talent kind of going unnoticed in the underground.

The people who knew comedy knew it and got it.

But in terms of mainstream acknowledgement, there just wasn't it.

Wasn't there?

You know what's so funny when you talk about how comedy, you know, exploded and the evolution of it, You know, if you go back and you think of, you know, the Rodney Dangerfield's or the Jackie Mason's and Alan King where they were playing at, you know, these huge resorts, you know, or Las Vegas, you know, or maybe the Copacabana in New York.

And then it advanced to, you know, the nightclub scene and, you know, comedians on the road night after night.

I mean, when when I worked with Jay Leno trying to book him on the college circuit, he was on the road 350 nights.

You were booking Jay Leno on the college?

Circuit I was.

Tell me about that.

No, no, no where.

No, no, I want to hear.

That it was just, it was in 1985 and Jerry Seinfeld was on the road 300 days a year.

Bill Maher was another one.

Adam Sandler.

I mean, it was a great roster and they were on the road 300, you know, every, every weekend, you know when you'd get the 45 minute.

I remember sitting in the room when Jay Leno's contract was negotiated for $1,000,000 for his first time.

And I don't think he had.

I think he was Johnny Carson's relief person on Monday nights when Johnny Carson wanted a night off.

So you see that kind of evolution.

And then now you've got Jim Gaffigan, who you mentioned, who I love.

You know what huge arenas, you know, Sebastian Maniscalco selling at Madison Square Garden multiple nights in a row, Bill Burke, You know, it's such a wild evolution.

You know, there's then there was this, you know, there's always been the Saturday Night Live component to it.

But when you talk about the ups and downs of comedy, you know, there were the times when everyone loved those casts and said, oh, my gosh, what's happening with this cast?

Is comedy dead?

Is it going to be funny again?

But there was always the glimpses, totally.

What do you think of all that?

Well.

It's interesting because as you look at the history, there have been waves of it and there's been ebbs and flows and each time it comes back bigger.

When I got into the business in 2001, 2002, let's say, and these numbers are going to be wrong, but they're not going to be.

I mean, I think they're illustrative of kind of what's happened.

There were maybe 5000 stand ups in the country and there were 300 really good ones and they were pretty easy to identify.

And now say 25 years later, I would say that there are at least 100,000 comedians in the country and it's really complicated to figure out who they.

Are.

Again, that number is probably wrong.

You're.

Probably not off I mean, I mean.

It's.

I'm sure my kids think I think I'm a joker.

Stop.

You are, I know you, you are a joker.

But it's it's just the industry has changed so dramatically because, you know, back in the day, if you got a 5 minute set on Ed Sullivan or Johnny Carson or even Letterman in the earlier days, your career could be made because there are three networks, 10s of millions of people watched it.

It was a rocket to stardom today.

And even 20 when I started in the business 25 years ago.

It almost doesn't move the needle.

If you if you have one of those late night appearances, it's really great to you know, for your bona fides to say like, oh, these gatekeepers wanted to be on the show.

You should probably trust me to play your club.

But in terms of moving tickets, moving albums doesn't doesn't have any effect.

And there are so many outlets now for comedians to have to promote.

I feel really almost terrible for a comedian entering the business now because not only do you have to be incredibly funny and incredibly original, you have to do all of this stuff you don't have.

You don't have to just do one thing your comedy.

You have to have a podcast, you have to do social clips, you have to put out albums, you have to be on the road all the time.

You have to do appearances everywhere.

You have to do all this stuff right for TV, do sketches online.

It's just so much stuff.

And I run into comics who think like, oh, if I just get this movie role or I just get this TV appearance, it's going to rock at me the stardom.

And that never happens.

It's all a confluence of just Rd.

dogging it, doing the socials, doing the pocket, like doing all of this stuff and being in front of everybody all the time, which also has a down.

I mean, it has a major downside in that when do you have time to do your comedy?

And you, I feel like a lot of the, the, the comics, when I was starting out in the business, they had done their thing, just worked in clubs and worked out their act for years and years and years.

Yeah, right.

And they worked on a specific act for 10 plus years.

Yes, and, and, and they could do that because they were going from club to club.

I mean, that was my first exposure like 79 to 85.

I always say I, I often think of them as the comedy golden years because you'd go to, I grew up on Long Island and you'd go to Eastside Comedy, which was owned by Rick Messina and Richie Minervini.

Richie Minervini started the whole thing and he had Eastside Comedy and the other one in Nassau County.

And you had, and he just would bring in the best people and you would have, you know, Eddie Murphy one night and then Bob Nelson do routines.

And you knew they were going to do the same routines most night you went there and you started to memorize their routines, but they would deliver them different every night.

And now I can't imagine the pressure on a comedian because I just recently watched the Bill Burr special and I thought, OK, that was pretty good.

That was a lot of new content.

I never heard him say any of that before.

That was phenomenal.

But I think about the pressure to come up with an hour and a half show where people are saying, oh, I've heard him say that before because everyone's in this.

Yeah, exactly.

How do you do it in a vacuum when you have people with cameras at every one of your shows so hard and you have to put out social content and you have to do all this.

And this is an art form that takes an artist probably 10 years to get mildly proficient at it typically.

And that's, that's not hyperbole.

It takes about 10 years to get not bad at it.

And it's a, it's a muscle and you have to do it every night and you have to, you know, eat it over and over and over again.

And it's incredibly hard.

But then when you're competing against so many other people, because again, back in around 2000, there were C level comedians on the road making $150,000 a year and, and living good lifestyles.

Like how do you do that when the amount of clubs, the amount of venues for it is finite and you're competing for spots.

And yeah, it's just, it's, it's really difficult these days.

One of the, there were only two things I looked for at Comedy Central Records.

And this is going to sound like nonsense and not believable, but it was the, it's the honest truth.

I looked for someone who is really, really funny and someone who had a very recognizable voice because think of any comedian who is your favorite, you know, immediately.

You know their voice.

That's Rodney Dangerfield.

You.

Can't get respect, you know?

Lewis Black is going to be furious about stuff, you know?

You know what Maria Bamford is going to be like, You know what Ron Funches is going to sound like?

You know what Dave Attell is going to be like.

You know almost immediately.

The persona is so identifiable and it doesn't have to be on the nose like I'm Gallagher and I smash fruit.

It could be very subtle.

But it's true, I can.

I never thought about that, but I can think of every comedian's voice.

Yeah, they're very, very identifiable.

Their point of view is identifiable, and the more identifiable, the better chance of success.

I mean, just whether you love or hate Andrew Dice Clay, he was a very specific persona and very easy.

Very easy.

To latch onto.

Or have a protest.

And.

Sam Kinison used the clubs used to put him on when they wanted, when like they wanted the audience to leave by midnight.

They'd save him to be the last act to go on because he'd go start screaming and people would start to.

He's not everyone's brand of tea.

Yeah, Yeah, it's totally.

But again, like so identifiable in that in the, you know, the yeah, he and Judy Tenuta had that kind of like, oh, we're just we're, we're talking in low voices and that are going crazy.

And that's very, you know, identifiable.

The problem with that, though, in the comedy space is that if you're too identifiable, you burn out because people get tired of that voice very quickly.

And then you have to move on to acting usually to to have longevity if you're if you're a comedian.

And this again, I'm, I'm using broad strokes here, but this is kind of, I feel like true for the most part.

If you're a comedian with a very recognizable voice, you can rock it to stardom, but the longevity typically is not there because comedy, I feel like is largely about novelty and the unexpected.

And when you get routinized or you know someone's voice, a lot of the time you get tired of it, especially if you're over saturated with it.

So.

It is funny, I mean, and even in acting, how you can pick up intonation like, you know, I could know whether it's, you know, Robert De Niro or Al Pacino, who we can all say are great actors.

They've done great films, but I pretty much know exactly how they're going to act in any movie.

You just know it.

Yeah, you know exactly.

You know, totally.

You wonder, is it acting or they just, are they playing?

You know, they're just Joe Pesci, you know?

Yeah, except when he went into a comedy role, you know, but.

No, that's exactly.

Yeah, that's a very interesting point.

What was the best performance you saw?

I'm jealous that I I'm a little too young to have been going to the clubs in in that period, what was the best performance or?

There were so many because I lived through Caroline's when Louis Ferrando was, well, first Louie, he was booking Catch Rising Star, then went to book Caroline's for years.

You know, whether it was Colin Quinn, you know, doing things, Larry Amoros going through all the newspapers, I just think Joy Behar had a good routine.

Carol Leafer talking about the airline stewardess.

This was hilarious, You know, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.

You know, you know, or, oh, my gosh, the list goes on.

Chris Rock used to come on stage with a hoodie all the way, pulled down and walk on stage.

You know what, like this and say OK, I know you already have 9-1 in your cell phones and it would break up the crowd with this nervous laughter.

He's so.

Good.

Oh my God, he was, he was unbelievable.

Eddie Murphy.

I mean seeing him back in the mid 80s.

So jealous.

I I so many people.

Two or three copies of Eddie Murphy's first two albums.

They're just.

And, you know, now I, I mean, Bill Maher, the interesting watching his total evolution of the different ways he's approached comedy, Dennis Miller, you know, the list goes on and on.

I mean, you know, Adam Sandler moving from, you know, comedy clubs to, you know, making movies.

That yeah, it's yeah.

God, so much good tell.

It's so, you know, I really, I feel like I'm, I truly feel incredibly fortunate that I lived through a real golden age in comedy.

But I look now like I think Ricky Gervais.

I mean, I can't watch it without choking.

I can't be, you know, he just buckles me up because.

It's.

It's that candor that I love from anyone.

Yeah.

Because I always, you know, when people get nervous in a crowd or, you know, when I first approached you about doing this show, I'd love to talk about this part, you know, where some like the legalizing comedy, which JP Sears was saying, or the censoring of comedy.

We could all say there's a time and place, you know, Jim Gaffigan.

What was it?

The Al Smith dinner?

I mean, he fuck, he was hilarious.

You know the different ways he mailed people.

It's why we need that pressure valve.

And I think it also comedy makes us think about the things nobody wants to discuss out loud.

But when you hear it, I always believed if you laughed at it on some level, you agree.

Or you're debating that within you.

Sure.

And it could be a joke about your husband or your wife, you know?

Yeah, no, no, 100% what a lot of people say like, oh, I get my news from comedy and I'm going don't, don't do that, really don't do that.

But I feel like they're comedy is so valuable in that it, they're so creative.

It provides a different way of seeing things.

And sometimes kind of world events get so ridiculous that it takes someone to have that perspective or making fun of it to go like, Oh yeah, that is, that is bananas.

Like, why are we, why are we doing this thing?

So I, I really do feel like it's, it's, it's super valuable in that respect.

And you know, there's so many flavors of it, right?

There's there's so many different ways to experiences, so many different points of view that yeah.

And especially now, I mean, that there's so much of it like it's, yeah, it's, it's just fantastic.

You know, and how it triggers funny interpersonal conversations.

Like if if I'm sitting in the car with my husband and he knows we're pulling up to some place and I'm still putting my phone in my bag, he's like, what are you, Missus Maniscalco?

You.

Knew we were pulling up here.

Yeah, my wife and I have quite literally dozens of lines from comedians that we use with each other on a daily basis because they're so resonant, right?

And they're and they're so true.

It's.

Yeah, it's.

I can't get off a plane without thinking of Carol Lee for going bye bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye bye.

Yeah, and what and to that point it's interesting too, because then, you know, SNL did that later on and and now it's it's kind of in the it's in the zeitgeist.

And what it what's I feel like not talked about a lot is that comedy does have a shelf life.

Because if you're really good and you come up with this really good insight, it's going to be copied and repeated to the point where you squeeze all of the, the novelty out of it.

And I, I go back because I collect all sorts of old comedy records and a lot of them don't hold up, especially by the bigger names, because the insights were so good and so interesting.

They got repeated over and over and over again.

So the, the, the novelty got taken out of it.

And an example of that is I adore Steve Martin.

He was the funniest thing in in the world.

And you know, I saw him do King Tut at the AT just for laughs.

Oh, really?

A few years back and time is meaningless.

I I this might be 10 years ago and I was watching it and as a huge Steve Martin fan, I was watching.

I was like, I don't really, because Steve Martin was in my mind the first real deconstructivist median, but now everybody is a deconstructivist comic.

And so how do?

You find deconstructivist comedy.

Just sort of taking a meta look at it.

It's a bit hard to describe, but you know, really taking apart the structure of the joke punchline, convention of the normal and just and rejiggering it and reformatting it and adding absurdity to it.

And it was so good and he was so good at it.

Everyone kind of adopted that style.

So what was novel when he was doing it is much less so now.

And I can't listen to those records anymore.

And in the same way, which is too bad because my adoration for him is huge, but it, it's, this is an art form that doesn't stay still, that doesn't that it just always is moving on.

Because when you get comfortable, when people know where the joke is going to go, or I've seen it too many times, it ceases to be funny.

And so you have to come up with a new perspective, a new way of saying things, a new, yeah, there's, there's been a movement in the last, I would say 10 years of taking a position that is on the surface indefensible and then trying to find a way to defend it like Bill Burr is so.

Interesting.

And and finding a funny way of saying it and.

That's a really good point.

And that's been, that's been like I've, I've found that some of the funniest comedy because also by doing that, what a lot of comedians do is they is they highlight by trying to find a funny way to defend that position, they highlight why that position is still indefensible.

Right.

Exactly why it's exactly Yeah.

I don't have a good example of that because I'm not smart enough.

But he nailed that in his show in the recent the recent special he's got out.

I'm trying to think of an example he did, but I know exactly what you're talking about.

He's really good at that.

And that is such a novel way to look at, you know, to, to perform comedy and, but at a certain point that is going to get tired and we'll move on to something else.

Where do you think George Carlin fit in with that?

I don't know, I think he he was a he was a force unto himself.

And it's hard to pin down George Carlin because his career had such an arc and he sort of he moved with the times, which I feel like is why his career lasted as long as it he was so good and updated and reiterated and you know, and just and changed once things started to get stale.

It was it was so good.

So I don't, I see him kind of in a league of his own standing aside from everything, because his path was not.

I mean, he did a little Hollywood acting, but he he was just a pure place.

Stand up.

Well, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

Oh, right, I.

Forgot that, it was just interesting to see him there.

Like what?

But but yeah, I, I, yeah, he's just a force.

And I, I don't know how he fits in into all that other than just being a luminary in the business.

But yeah, anyway.

What, what's your prediction on the arc of comedy over the next few years?

Because as you said, you've got this disintermediation because you've got all these channels the, you know, the Internet, you know, are you an Internet famous person or you, you know, does somebody know you from TV?

I don't know and I wish, I wish I could figure that out.

It's just the prognostication is tough.

My one concern is that there's so much of it and they're so it's.

It gets crappy.

It gets crappy it.

Really does.

There's a lot that's just not funny.

It, it's, it's true.

And what has happened was so Mark Normand was one of the first people to use YouTube to put, to release a comedy special.

And I, this was five or seven years ago and everyone, all these comedians would talk about them using the Mark Norman model because he got something like 10 + 1,000,000 views in the first month or something.

It was enormous.

And no one had, really.

Excused my ignorance.

Is he a comedian or was he a producer?

Yeah, I've never.

Heard he's a New York comedian.

Utterly fantastic checking out Yeah.

Mark Normand And So what comedians did was like, oh, I'm going to drop my it did so well that the next special was on Netflix and it he, you know, he multiplied his ticket sales as a result of how on YouTube and everybody's seeing it and YouTube is like, whoa, people like this, we're going to put these into the algorithm and really feed them to people because these this is great content that people like that is fantastic.

A lot of comedians put their specials up.

They got a lot of viewership from it.

But what happened was with everything, it got oversaturated with less than stellar specials.

YouTube pulled back the algorithm.

They want to be a less profane platform now.

So that also added to the pulling back.

Which I think is good.

I always appreciated the comedians that could do a great show without.

You don't need the profanity.

Yeah, I think it's less altruistic and more like we have advertisers.

We don't want to, you know, talk about, you know, certain topics with with, you know, Coca-Cola being the sponsor.

But so there's so now it's it's a lot harder to break out on YouTube than it was before.

So again, these things, these things come and go.

And because there's so many comedians by nature, there's there's a lot of less good stand up because, again, I feel for these comedians because you can't just develop your career in a vacuum.

You have to be putting out content from the jump or nobody knows you.

You won't get booked.

Yeah, it's it's a lot harder today to do it.

So to answer your question, I have no idea where it's going.

My concern is that there's and actually it's not really a concern.

I think a lot of of the people who are doing it are going to kind of fall out and we might go through a bust period because like we were talking about before, there's always been waves of progressively bigger comedy cycles and.

Which is a lot like music, you know, when you have bands that were the one hit wonder, you know, and, or a band that put out a great album to follow that up with the second great album is tough.

And in comedy, you're talking about a 45 minute set, 100%, you know, or hour and a half if you're trying to sell out Madison Square Garden, you know, tough.

It is to follow.

That is a really great point too, because I come from the the kind of the punk rock world.

I had a punk rock record label in the late 80s and early 90s and prior to Nirvana, Smells Like Teen Spirit, punk rock was just operating in its own sort of the asthma and the underground and and there were these bands around the country.

Again, pre Internet.

They were just doing their own thing and their own regional markets and they were touring and really the only communication was fanzines.

And but the great part about that is they were coming up with their own unique style and art form, just without any influence or hopes for success or caring for success.

So the art was really pure and really good.

Then Nirvana broke and a lot of the big bands in the underground became famous because they were so good and people wanted, you know, agitated guitar rock.

But what happened was all of these bands from who were who were performing the underground at the time got famous.

And then other people came in, like other people who saw that team spirit feel like, oh, my God, this is great.

I want to be a part of this.

Yeah.

Got into bands and some of them could, or you had, you know, heavy metal bands in Los Angeles, you know, stop using Hairspray and stop start wearing flannel and moving to Seattle and starting and grunge bands.

And so you saw this small scene explode.

And then all through the mid 90s there were a, a preponderance like there's all these bands getting signed and there were hundreds and thousands of alternative rock records being released and they were all fine.

They're pretty good.

And it led to an oversaturation and then kind of a collapse in the, in sort of the mid 90s, which I feel like gave way to the this, you know, swing and ska movement that we that we were running the label for because people just, it was, it was a reaction to all of that sort of oversaturation of punk rock.

And I feel like there's a great correlation with comedy because we're at this point now, you know, you have a lot of these new comedians who grew up on a lot of these luminaries in the in the early aughts.

And just we're getting this oversaturation because it's such an appealing genre.

And, you know, they're, they're not huge barriers to entry to it.

So I feel like we're kind of in the oversaturation point and I don't know what that's going to lead to, whether it leads to sort of a waning of interest in in the genre or or what.

But I mean, the good news is there's ostensibly more talent than ever in this business, and I think it's going to lead to some amazing comedy down the road.

What do you think create those breakout moments for a comedian today?

Hard to say.

Hard to say because what I've seen, and again, this is not, this is not universal, but the real difference between a really good comic and a great comic is about 15%.

And I've watched comics for years kind of struggle and they're good.

But then at a certain point usually comes over a 234 year period, they really crystallize their voice and that rockets them to greatness.

So I don't know that there is one thing that that is is going to make someone big.

I think it's years and years and years of crystallizing the voice and joke writing and just propelling them to to superstardom.

Yeah.

I don't know if I don't know if you can answer this so you can say you can move on like a politician.

Go to another question, let me let me try not to.

Be a But I'm just curious, you know, when you're thinking about Comedy Central programming, what what what are you looking for of where you're saying, OK, this, this is good or this should go on at this time of day or that time of day because of all the different things that go into what you choose for programming.

So I I am not the the programmer and serious, I would probably be terrible at it.

We have a great talented team of people who do the programming but and also people who I don't do the evaluations.

We have a great evaluation team of people who listen to this.

I'm more on the deal making side I see in my career because I don't.

Trust.

So who would you make a deal with?

What would it take to make a deal with Jack?

Well, in any aspect of your comedy life, what in any venture you're doing, what are you looking for in that talent?

Do you know what it's?

It's going to sound disingenuous to say it's the exact same thing.

You have to be really, really funny and really, really unique and identifiable.

I I think if anything, that might be the one thing that stays constant in this business because this business changes almost completely every 9 to 18 months.

Again, that sounds like hyperbole.

It really.

Is why?

Because how do you?

Why do you?

Why do you say that?

Because you'd think that an entire industry can't change that completely in that short a period of time.

But there are always new outlets, new ideas, new buyers of content, you know, distributors and and broadcasters are going in and out of business.

When I got to Comedy Central, it was one of the proudest days of my life because Comedy Central was so pivotal for me in.

My life it.

Was the place you went for comedy and and.

But and innovative.

Yeah, exactly.

And, and for, for years and, you know, it had been declined for a minute.

And then Netflix has been on the ascendance and other outlets and just things come and go.

And it, it was just, you know, it, it who knows?

Like the, the platforms change, the way you distribute comedy changes.

Do you put it on YouTube?

Is Spotify going to come in and do video?

Is, is Amazon going to be more in the comedy space?

What's going to happen?

Like, we don't know.

But they're always new buyers and there's, there are always companies that are there in decline.

And so you just have to keep your ear to the ground and figure out, OK, where is this going to go?

Where have the paths been blazed?

Where do we think this is going to go for the future?

And I don't envy anybody that because it's, it's, it's, it's in such a constant state of flux that like who knows?

You know, at the, when I got into this business in about 2000, 2002, CDs were the number one format, right?

And CDs in hindsight, we're kind of a nightmare because you had to manufacture them, you had to warehouse them, you had to do color Seps and pricing and positioning and listening stations and make sure that they weren't.

If something sold out, you had to have more inventory.

And then it became digital and it was all iTunes and the cost to shoot or to record an album dropped dramatically.

And then no one was doing TV specials.

And then there became a lot of outlets for TV and the cost to shoot a stand up special dropped from like $150,000 to now you know, you could shoot a special today for five, ten, $20,000 and they look great and there are a lot more outlets for it.

You can have the world see it on YouTube.

And that is as an artist is utterly fantastic.

The downside is, and there's always a monkey paw downside is that everybody can do that now, right?

And so how do you differentiate, differentiate yourself among all of the people who are putting out this this content?

So anyway, I don't know if that answers your question.

I think that was a politician.

No, it does.

You answered it well.

I have a question for you also.

Then you asked me about my favorite show.

Do you have a favorite show that comes to your mind?

You probably have many, but what would be some that?

So I mean, there are there are so many and it's not really often the ones that are sort of the big landmark ones in history.

They're just nights that are are magic.

I remember seeing John Mulaney for the first time and just going what this is so good.

He his voice is so amazing, so unique and so talented.

The night I produced a record with Dave Attell called Skanks for the Memories and this was one of the first records we.

Produced it's very punk name.

It's one of the best comedy records ever.

And we recorded it at the Comedy Works in Denver on Halloween.

And I, I remember flying into Denver and there was this stuff called freezing fog and just driving through and it was eerie and crazy.

And at the shows, people had been drinking since about noon and they were all coming in costume and the mood was just electric.

And Dave was crushing.

Every crowd was just bringing down the house.

I remember one night there were it got so rowdy, two women were escorted away in handcuffs and it was just out of control.

And I always have a fond retroaction of that.

And there were lots of great Hedberg nights and.

Yeah, but just I guess for me it's it's seeing a comedian I wasn't really familiar with and Justice going wow.

Because it's really easy for, I mean, maybe not easy, but just often times you could just tell, you could see a comic and they have it, they have the the energy, they have the point of view, they have the timing, or it just works.

And it's kind of transcendent because humor is everything for me.

It's how I deal with stress, how I deal with trauma.

And it's a lot of people think it's inappropriate to deal with like, like negative topics in a humorous way, but I find it's the best way to address things and I just love it so much.

I think it released that nervous energy.

It's like if you saw somebody fall down a staircase.

How many times is somebody standing there laughing?

I think thinking about is effectively hilarious to me.

And I don't I mean, it's it's just one of those things because yeah, I just especially with tragic events, to be able to deal with it.

I mean, not in the moment, but just with humorous is kind of the only way for me to process it.

Otherwise it would just be too too sad, too too tough.

You know, it's interesting you mentioned that because if I had to pick you just triggered because I was sitting here thinking what was my all time favorite show and I might even get teary tell when I tell you this.

There was no one there that couldn't have been teary.

In recollection was sometime after September 11th.

Robin Williams played at Carnegie Hall and Roy and I went with another couple and it was a fantastic show.

But how it wrapped up at the end, I'll never forget it.

How do you wrap it up?

Talking about the resiliency of New York.

And it was just one of those moments where you say, This is why I love comedy and it's also why I loved Robin Williams because he could take everyone from that laughter and gently give everyone the biggest hug.

I mean, it was a it was that pressure relief, that societal pressure relief.

But to me, comedy is that magic medicine.

So valuable, so valuable.

Yeah.

And he, he was so great at that.

Taking, taking, you know, arcs and going from that mania to seriousness and warmth and, and everything.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

I, I, I went to, to one of those, those cardiologists.

I remember when I was.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, it's such a, it's such a skill to be able to do that, you know, and to make somebody laugh about things that are, as you said, you used a word before, I can't remember what it was, the deconstruction of things that are not funny.

They're horrible in society.

They're wrong, right?

But add that sense of humor, make somebody laugh, bring it around, almost agree with it, you know, drive it so home that you're almost saying, I can't believe they're saying this.

You know, how could they say this?

And then they Zing it and twist it in that other direction.

It's, it's such a yeah, it's such a unique and incredible skill.

And it's like, yeah, I just, I just love it so much as an art form and I always have.

And I'm just thrilled that I get to be a part of it tangentially because I'm not talented.

I wish I could do it, but just I love, I love being a fan of it and helping to be able to amplify it.

What do you Since you're on the pulse, you've really picked out a lot of different comedians over the years.

Since you know, noticed talent, help nurture talent, recorded talent.

Where do you think things could go next?

What are other areas within that world of entertainment?

You know what what?

What goes beyond punk?

What goes on rock?

What goes beyond comedy?

Well, it's, it's funny because one of the few things I've been pretty successful at my career is identifying interesting sort of niche areas that are doing really interesting stuff and helping to to amplify it.

I feel like right now magic as a category is kind of in that space.

New York is a big Ground Zero for a lot of amazing magic talent.

And there are a lot of similarities in my minds with comedy in that I feel like we're coming off the the observational comedy bus equivalent in magic.

And there are a lot of really cool and innovative effects artists doing really cool and innovative stuff, just kind of mind blowing tricks.

And magic as a genre is just kind of bubbling up into the under the surface.

Like people don't think about going to a magic show the way they do think about going to the movies or stand up show or even axe throwing, you know?

But there is a small group of just really, really talented magicians who are doing innovative new stuff in a in in new ways.

And I really think that magic has the potential to be the next big category and have shot a series of seven special or sorry of of eight half hour specials, multiple magicians.

You were a part of those.

And let me just say for the record, I don't know what Cameron to look at.

Diane was awesome on the show.

The the best ever and we've also shot 7 full hour magic specials just on spec and are trying to to find a home for them because the world needs to see this And you know, I'm wrong about all sorts of stuff.

I'm really hoping I'm not wrong about this because it's just a great form of entertainment that has not gotten it to do I think in recent years.

You know, for since I moved to the city over 35, more than 35 years ago, about I started hosting an annual Christmas party, holiday party.

And it, it's just gotten bigger and bigger and more fun.

And I started to maybe 20 years ago, I started to have a music magician who would walk through the party and, you know, intermingle with everyone.

And I am blown away when you have these magicians, first of all, that can work in the round.

Yeah, that can pull lifesavers out of the air, you know, fly them around like Saturn.

And I'm telling you, there are no strings around that lifesaver.

So how that lifesaver is flying around the air, that's magic, you know, Or I, I'm still reeling over Matthew Fuhrman pulling out my engagement ring from, you know, those old key chains that used to have the hard metal clasp?

They'd be like 4 across in that.

Fold.

Yeah.

And like a folding leather wallet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, we're talking, and he asked for my engagement ring.

And I gave it to him nervously, you know, and it ended up in his back pocket in one of those class that I remember as a kid, breaking my fingernails.

Everyone would be like, oh, can you get the keys?

Oh, I know.

Exactly what you're talking about.

They were impossible to slip on there.

Yeah.

Now how did that happen when we were all standing around?

You can only say magic.

Yeah, it's, it's, you know.

Or someone guessing someone's maiden name.

The Mentalists, the stuff those guys do.

So skillful, so skillful.

And so we have, we have a few magicians on the roster and the I never ask how they do an effect.

I try to figure it out, but I know the work that goes into it.

We have, we have these these magicians who work for six, nine months on an effect and stay in their apartment for 10 hours a day for six to nine months, perfecting 1 trick.

And what one of the some of the pushback we're getting from TV networks who are saying no to our magic specials is that everyone thinks that magic on TV is just camera tricks.

So magic doesn't work on television, which is.

I don't know Siegfried and had got their start on watch.

I mean, yes, they were in Las Vegas, but the world was watching them on TV.

Exactly.

It's I didn't question that it was magic.

It's nonsense.

And what we, the way we want to help reframe the conversation is like, no, this is a craft that people do.

And the notion of having it be camera tricks or AI or special effects is anathema to what this is, which is a, it's a craft.

It's people who are skilled craftspeople doing this amazing craft.

And we just want to to help amplify that because it's just you should see some stuff.

And you have, Oh my gosh, I would love it because I'm just blown away by magicians.

Magicians and comedy.

So it's an interesting tie in you're making because it's, it is, well, to me, magicians, yeah, I'm sure they practice, but to me, they're magicians.

It's magic.

And I can't because I can't imagine it.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's jaw-dropping what they can come up with and the way they figure out how to solve problems.

And yeah, so hopefully, hopefully this is something that that will get its due in in the mainstream on a bigger scale because there, there are some shows.

I would watch that.

I would love to see that all the whole series.

Well please do, I hope there are there are 1,000,000 more like you.

I hope they get on the air.

I mean, I could see that as a Netflix series that people would tune into or yeah.

Yeah.

Paramount Plus it's He needs to get onto one of those.

Totally.

Yeah, it's yeah, it's good stuff.

So hey, hopefully that's that's where that's the next big thing.

Very cool.

Well, Jack Vaughn, my gosh, what a pleasure this has been.

And time goes too fast.

Yeah, this.

Thanks so much for having me.

This has been so much fun.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

We got to talk about two of my favorite topics, comedy for sure, and magic.

So much fun talking about.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you everybody.

I'm Diane Griselle.

This has been the Silver Disobedience Perception Dynamics podcast, and my guest has been the amazing, talented, creative Jack Vaughn, who is somebody you want to watch.

So there will be all kinds of links below this podcast.

You're going to want to pay attention.

You may even want to get in touch.

I don't know if that'll help you or not, but you might.

I'm around all kinds of info about him below this podcast.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Jack.

Thanks, Diane.

Thanks everyone.

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