And if you just start to understand that you can actually change those narratives, that you can change that way of thinking, and you start to do that and you start to see.

The results and you start to see how I'm, this, I'm the same physical person, but, but I'm happier and I'm lighter and I have more energy and I'm more creative by, by letting go of some of this baggage that, that we carry.

Welcome to the World Beyond Resilience Podcasts.

I'm Carolyn Gibson.

And I am Angela Fil, and we are both delighted to welcome today Sabina Duan, the founder and executive director of the Just Jobs Network, which is a global research institute that provides cutting edge research on great job creation and workforce development.

And under Sabina's leadership, the Just Jobs network has grown to exert significant influence on the global discourse on employment and the governance of, of labor markets.

Sabina, welcome to the podcast.

Is there anything else that you would like to add that I forgotten to say that you think our readers, our readers, Alice should know?

Thank you so much Angela and Carolyn.

It's really lovely to be here and I'm looking forward to this conversation with you.

And the only thing I would add to my bio is that I'm a Wild Spirit, which is your coaching program that has been truly transformative and I hope to bring up more of how it's been transformative through the course of our conversation.

But I would add that to my bio as well.

World Spirits Unite.

Thank you so much for that.

It's really kind.

I'd be curious to hear what you want to share and how that can be useful to other women in leadership like you.

So, Sabina, you know that our podcast is about the world beyond resilience, but we always start with a story about resilience and origin story.

Mostly our parents never said to us, Hey, you are resilient.

It was just something that we learned.

So what's your origin story?

Angela, I, I was born with some congenital problems with my hip and then had malpractice as a baby and through my, I.

Childhood.

This was something that I grappled with and, and to this day, there's a lot that I deal with on a daily basis, but when I think of resilience, my story, I go back to when I was 12 years old, the treatment that I needed was available in Canada with a particular doctor.

That's very lucky that my father and my.

Mother could afford to take me there.

And so I remember having quite a major surgery and I was in the hospital and I overheard my parents, they didn't know, and I overheard them sort of saying, you know, we've been here a couple of days now.

They had.

Sort of expected that I would recover and you know, they don't discharge you from the hospital after you've had such major surgery until you actually get up and move around and can demonstrate that, that you will be able to handle basic functions and be safe when you get home.

I remember my parents.

Feeling like, oh, well, you know, she hasn't been, she hasn't gotten to that point yet.

And, uh, what are we gonna do?

Because the entire logistics had been planned around my father taking time off the finances.

And all of that had been planned around a particular amount of time in the hospital.

And like I said, they didn't know that I overheard this conversation.

That evening, you know, they left after spending the full day with me in the hospital.

So the next morning when the physiotherapist came and the doctor came, I was very adamant that no matter what, I would get up and move and do whatever needed to be done so that I.

It wouldn't be so difficult for my parents.

And so that morning, by the time my parents came to the hospital, I was already dressed.

I had already walked.

The doctors were preparing, the nurses were preparing the discharge paperwork because I had done whatever needed to be done.

And I remember my parents coming into the hospital and just being, you know, moved and elated by the fact that this had all happened and I felt.

.And they had a great sense of gratitude for how all of this had transpired.

And I also remember feeling.

A sense of joy, and just, happy that I could now go home with my parents, and relieved in some sense that I, wasn't creating more strife and struggle for them.

And when I think back to this story, and I think back to, to this,.

This moment that for a very long time in my mind, was stored as an example of resilience.

I recognized that that resilience was coming from a place of struggle and guilt and fear.

I.

For a 12-year-old.

Right.

And now that I have some distance from it, I think back and I sort of remove myself from being that 12-year-old.

And if it was another child, I wouldn't, I wouldn't wanna place that on them.

And I, so, so in some sense what was for a very long time stored as my resilience story in my mind has now also.

Given me the perspective to say, well, there has to be a different version of resilience.

And over time, I think I've started to realize that there is a resilience 2.0, if you will, and we can talk a little bit more about what that is.

I, I recognize that this other version of resilience comes from a more positive place of self-awareness worth.

Care and growth, you know?

So that, that, has given me a great deal of insight and changed through my life.

Yeah.

I felt really, sad for that 12-year-old listening to your story.

Yeah.

But it's hard.

My mother has stories of when she had dental surgery without any kind of painkillers and how proud her parents were that she'd got through it and you know, you just think, how awful is that?

Right?

But it's not that they obviously knew that you were going through it.

Yeah.

But

that's, but that's the story.

It's about struggle and pain, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It is.

And, and, you know, it's, it's not about, this isn't, the story isn't meant to be a reflection on my parents or No.

You know, anything like that because they, they had no idea this was all me, right?

This was all a 12-year-old that had somehow.

Societally, perhaps Familially as well, community, whatever messages we get had taken on the burdens onto herself and, had a real sense of pride and having, overcome this huge obstacle and struggle.

Well, I was just gonna say, and I remember you talking about this before, what do you think from your cultural and familial and community perspective was adding to that feeling?

I think in many cultures and certainly in Indian culture, a woman's worth is often measured by how much she's willing to sacrifice for others, especially family.

And this notion of resilience that we inherit is really depleting.

it, it takes away your energy and, your self-worth is, is defined by how much energy you expend being.

I.

Empathically attuned to others, compassionate giving, sacrificing, right?

You could be all of those things, but still think of yourself as a whole person and show yourself the same compassion and care and love and empathy.

Right?

But I, but we're not taught that.

We're taught.

To in some sense deplete ourselves.

And sacrifice is the value that is, is held up I think, there can be a kind of resilience that's more generative and that's not fully appreciated.

In some sense, my journey of self-awareness.

Has been ongoing for several years, but, but actually understanding this notion of a different kind of generative resilience is something that I came to through Wild Spirit and, and through your program, Angela,

that's, that's so interesting because my question that I had for you was at, at what point did you really start questioning.

The, the sacrifice model.

The sacrifice of it.

Because I'm also aware of, that 11, 12-year-old age, and Carolyn, you spoke about your mom.

I mean, all ages are impactful, but there seems to be a lot happening around that age that really stays with us and.

When you are validated for that as well and you feel like you've done the right thing, it just becomes like natural to sacrifice, as you were saying.

So I was wondering at what stage you started thinking, hang on, does that always have to be a zero sum game?

And,, what is the real value of me?

Sacrificing myself for others and i'm curious if there was a, maybe a moment actually that had you question or if it was just ongoing self-awareness that broadened for you.

I, I don't think that there was a moment.

I think that it's been a journey that I've been on since maybe my early thirties.

Where I, I started to question just., My experience of, of life was always coming from a place of struggle.

I, it, it is really how I looked at myself.

Worth.

Um, how much are you putting into something, how much energy and whether it was romantic relationships that you you know, didn't really see going anywhere.

But still, I'm not gonna let that go.

I'm gonna make it work.

I'm gonna put myself into it, uh, running after.

Areas of work that weren't my strong points, rather than playing to my strengths, which inherently isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's about balancing where you're putting your energy.

Right.

And how you viewed yourself vis-a-vis other people, right?

Because if you're always looking at what you have to give up and, and you're measuring your self worth is based on that, then you also start to feel really insecure vis-a-vis other people and lacking of energy, lacking confidence, right?

Always having to prove yourself.

I think these are all.

Manifestations of the same kind of phenomenon and the same kind of social milieu in, in which we, especially women, are, are socialized.

Yeah.

Right.

You put, you put it so well habituating that struggle cycle, right?

Yeah.

Because then we try even harder to prove ourself.

Yeah.

Um, and then we feel more depleted and we think, well, I just have to try harder.

And everybody reflects back the value of trying harder and how wonderful that is.

And it's like, right, well, I'll go even further.

And it's like, why am I hurting so much?

And you know, like, is this how it has to be?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and your value is based on how much you do, right.

Rather than who you are.

Yeah.

That's the real burden, isn't it, that you put on yourself, and you put on other people.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So it's not a moment, but it's, the slow recognition and, working with other insightful women.

Um, you know, shout out to Elaine Hoffman, who was my therapist for several years and is this wonderful woman who I think really helped me initially on this journey.

Of, of being able to see that there's a different way of being.

And then that journey has carried through and, brought me to Wild Spirit and, and here, here we are today in, in conversations like these.

Yeah.

And noticing that we're so acknowledged for doing, like our product, it's more than productivity.

In fact, productivity is part of a part of the global paradigm.

Um, but again, just the doingness, so not being recognized for the beingness.

And so the experience gets pushed out the window, sort of like, doesn't matter what experience I'm having is.

Long as I keep nourishing the inner hungry machine of validation, which is a bottomless pit really, isn't it too?

So that's where that struggle's created or continues to be perpetuated.

And, uh, so shout out to Elaine as well, and any other therapists out there that are helping us all see that it doesn't have to be this experience.

We don't have to have this experience.

And we can still do.

So I'm thinking of you and this incredible organization that you've built and other things that you're in the process of building.

And the idea that success doesn't have to be tied to struggle.

My hope for you and for every woman out there is that we,.

Is that we can build amazing organizations from the ground up and not have to suffer so much, and to really feel that difference between struggle and effort, for example.

But before we go there, I want to ask, because I, I just can't help myself.

I have to.

Um, is there a song that you would use for the type of resilience, you know, the way you had internalized resilience in your life?

Elaine and Wild Spirit and all of the other wonderful things you've learned.

I can't think of a, a particular song, but if you were to ask me, what I would call a song that I could write, it would be Something related to maybe roots and wings.

Because roots signify an anchor in self-awareness and, a.

Self-love, recognition, appreciation, and wings signify a natural energizing force that is about flourishing and soaring more than just surviving, right?

So, so roots and Wings.

I love that you, you are writing the song for after You Can, you can The Beyond Resilience theme song for the podcast.

Fantastic.

And, and, and Carolyn Summer Do the music.

There you go.

Shout out to Scott.

So, I'm just curious, when you're taking those initial steps of rewiring your brain to think differently, what, what helped you do that?

What were, what were the steps that you took to kind of think, all right, I'm not going to struggle here.

I'm gonna try something else.

So, um.

So I, I will admit that I'm a bit of a self-help junkie, and I, I I started to realize that there are these stories and these narratives that we have for ourselves about a way to be, a way to think that can be really depleting.

And if you just start to understand that you can actually change those narratives, that you can change that way of thinking, and you start to do that and you start to see.

The results and you start to see how I'm, this, I'm the same physical person, but, but I'm happier and I'm lighter and I have more energy and I'm more creative by, by letting go of some of this baggage that, that we carry.

The steps that that have helped me is, from therapy to really reading a lot.

Whether it's spiritual literature or other forms of self-help literature by people that seem to inspire me.

Joining programs like Wild Spirit, where, you're with other women that have accomplished wonderful things, but have also most, most wonderfully.

Been cultivating the similar kind of self-awareness and learning from each other and growing.

I think all of that has been really, really helpful.

You know, things like meditation and journaling, are also very helpful.

They're not things I always stick to, regularly, but putting all of this together.

Over a period of time.

I think slowly you start to recognize that there's just another way to be, and it's, and did you have an

did you have an instance of when you finished a meeting or had a conversation with somebody where you felt completely different?

Yeah, I, I, I think I have a lot of those moments, right?

A moment of recognition of Yeah.

Like, yeah, I, I got through that and, and I got through it with confidence and I had the courage and the confidence to say, I don't know that.

Let me get back to you and be okay with it.

Right?

Like, you're not hard on yourself in the same way of like, oh my God, I should have known that.

Why didn't I know that now I, you know, and it's just a, a more grounded understanding of who you are and how you move in the world and accepting and loving of yourself, you know, I, I, I was often taught that.

Loving yourself or even, talking about yourself was kind of vain and,, not appreciated in that sense.

And, and now I, I feel completely the opposite.

I think I do love myself and not always, but I, for the most part, and it's, it's a work in progress.

But, but I think.

Just understanding that we are who we are and we're in the right place and everybody has things they need to learn and places they need to grow, and, things that they've accomplished, but we're all exactly the way we should be, you know?

Yeah.

And accepting.

I'm really touched by the, the, the kindness.

So there's self-awareness and self-acceptance and, and self-compassion.

I can't call them the three virtues, but I've got in my mind a little image of a Venn diagram with each of those in a particular heart in the center.

And I'm wondering, you know, about the impact of this compassion.

Self-awareness and then self-compassion on you and how that relates to the song that you are writing about,, thriving with roots and wings.

Just tell us a little more about that, how we should speak differently about resilience and, and go beyond it.

I want you to elaborate basically.

I think when we become more accepting of ourselves in these ways, then it allows us to be more of who we are rather than trying to, meet some impossible standards or.

Other people's version of success or who we should be.

And, and I think as we become more of ourselves, we're able to be, you know, more compassionate, more loving, more, there's more energy, there's more purpose, right?

I think ultimately it creates a, a much healthier environment.

I feel like I have more bandwidth for other women,, in my life that.

Are on this journey and would like to engage and I think the past me would be so mired in my own insecurities and struggles that I wouldn't have the energy and the presence to actually engage with others and be able to also see them as these wonderful beings with the possibility of.

Thriving.

I think it's just a, a much nicer way of being, not just with ourselves, but also being in the world that I think cultivates more energy and, and, and generative energy and, and pathways for growth, than, than the closed version of ourselves that's so mired in all of these struggles all the time.

I so relate to where you're coming from, and I, I'm so curious now, because you obviously run this amazing organization.

How is that manifesting in the way you lead, and the way you relate to the people around you, in your team and, and in your organization, and also the people that you have to, to influence

and the choices that you make for yourself?

Because I've got a little bit of insight.

Insight,

yeah.

Yes.

So, so I have the privilege of working with colleagues and a team who I love, right?

That I really care about as people, as human beings.

They're talented, they're smart, and I often say, oh, I'm so lucky to have come upon these colleagues, but I also think that the reality is that.

It's been a journey for me.

It's been a journey for me to also be able to, look beyond CVS and paper, right?

And, and also cultivate in my colleagues to help help them on their journeys and cultivate an environment that sets the bar high in terms of quality and expectations, but also, um, I think realizes.

That we are at the end of the day, all people, and that there is this version of, of resilience or of success that that amplifies their strengths and plays to their strengths rather than charting.

People for weaknesses So I find a more generative energy in my organization now, and it hasn't always been that way.

The beginning was marked with a lot of struggle and strife and, I.

I started just jobs as a single woman in India, in a field, labor economics that's largely driven by men in a patriarchal culture.

So it wasn't easy, but I also recognize now and, and maybe some of that is age that coming through that experience and just.

Finding different ways of doing things that, that are, more generative, has been my journey.

And I try to cultivate that in my organization and the culture of my organization with my colleagues.

And particularly also recognizing how some of my younger female colleagues might be struggling with similar issues that I did when I was that age.

What you've just said.

Reminds me of, this real capacity to shift from struggle to effort, which, is one of the, the shifts that I believe, really is part of, moving the paradigm from the resilience to beyond resilience.

And you were talking about excellence and the capacity to like, reach for something.

Yeah.

Have high standards.

And I just wanna bring that back to there's a, an idea that being compassionate is indulgent or that it's, or a prevailing idea that I hear quite often.

It's like, if I'm compassionate, then I'll collapse.

Everything will collapse and nobody will do anything.

It's self-indulgent, not self self-aware or self-accepting.

Nothing will get done.

And what I'm hearing in your story.

As the leader of an organization, in India, is that, that's completely wrong.

So these ideas that we have about compassion, are not mutually exclusive to having excellence.

In fact, they're conducive to really building excellence within an organization and, fueling creativity within that organization.

And within oneself.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I,, I feel that very personally in, in my organization I work on in a field of labor economics, and.

Jobs and labor rights, right?

And what you see is people treated as commodities in service of efficiency and productivity and profits, right?

And, and, um, I find that deeply troubling, not.

Not just from a moral standpoint or an ethical standpoint, which it is, but also from a, from, from an actual efficiency and productivity and creativity standpoint.

I used to think I had to be a certain way.

I.

Being a woman, running an organization, setting up an organization, not knowing anyone.

When I moved to India, yes, I'm of Indian origin.

My only advantage was that I spoke the language.

Um, I spoke Hindi, but other than that, I didn't know a soul when I moved to this country to set up just jobs.

Uh, and the way that I did it, I thought I had to be a certain way that my path to success was productivity, efficiency, you know, trying to extract as much as I could from my workers, my employees, my colleagues, but then realized that actually there was so much turnover and.

And it ran counter to who I am as a human being, you know?

So I was depleting in my energy in that sense because I was trying to be someone I'm not naturally.

And so now I, I recognize that and I'm so much more comfortable in.

And how, and the culture that we've created in my organization, and I'm proud of it.

I think we're more productive than we ever were.

We're more focused and purpose driven than we ever were.

Uh, the quality of our work is excellent, and I would, I would say all of my colleagues.

Are really happy to be part of the organization and feel excited about coming to work.

And I can say that with a degree of, of confidence.

Yeah.

It's funny that you talk about that, word, compassion.

Because I had this experience last year of running a conference where we had, um, senior leaders from all over two different organizations coming together who didn't trust each other, didn't believe they could work together.

Productivity was terrible.

And I was talking to this, the keynote speakers.

I said, even if we don't talk about it, we have to demonstrate compassion all the way through this conference.

And he went, compassion.

Really?

I was like, yes.

Yes.

Because the whole core of this problem is that we are not compassionate about each other's needs and, and, and wants and values.

And he couldn't get it.

He couldn't get it.

I was like, oh, wow.

Now we know the problem.

Yeah.

That's so sad, right?

It is, it is.

And I feel like we're confronted with that every day that, that difference.

But I, the more I go, the more I go down the path That is true to myself and, and this resilience 2.0 beyond resilience, the more I recognize that there is a better way of doing things right, and, and that it actually works.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Then you get the positive reinforcement and then you wanna do more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you wanna inspire others to do it too, whether it's it's in their, in their own personal journeys, or in their work or in their personal lives.

So we can really hear the thread of you following your truth.

Becoming more self-aware, through your life, uh, asking yourself different questions, checking out whether you are inner feeling and what's going on outside or are aligned, uh, and I I have an image of you sort of like stepping back on the path each time, uh, as you move forward and growing those roots in order to be able to soar.

So tell, tell us a little bit about.

What else or what maybe advice you might give to other women in leadership, other women aspiring to leadership?

'cause you were talking about being an inspiration.

How might they think about this as early as possible so that they, they, they too have more capacity to thrive rather than survive?

I think getting past the.

External narratives and templates that we are given to really, truly understand that we are all people with many gifts.

And, having this compassion and love and understanding our inherent worth, is fundamental to leadership because it.

Doing that breeds a, a degree of confidence and removes the kind of insecurities that deplete us and hold us back.

So my, my biggest piece of advice is, doing away with those narratives and stories and templates and, Versions of success that are given to us that don't serve us.

And, moving beyond all that to a space of, of generative energy and creativity and joy.

I mean, none of this is constant.

I really wanna be clear that it's a journey.

It's not a moment.

It's, I'm not there.

You know, we all have growth.

Um, and I, I rejoice in the fact that I have a lot of growth still to do.

Right.

That's fun.

That's a great thing.

Um, but I also, I, I feel like doing away with all of that to come to a place of, I I can be who I really am, am and be comfortable in my own skin.

And the sooner we get there, I think the more poised we are to put our energies in, in positive building and creativity.

Yeah.

That the, um, it's interesting you were talking about growth and I was thinking that this morning as I was on my, my hike growth is.

Part of the human spirit.

It's part of, it's being, it's nature itself.

we can let go of the narratives.

We'll keep letting go of different narratives a bit by bit, but we, there's a moment when we get that that's the path, and then from there, the growth is never ending.

So, yeah, like the potential is forever.

The strengths keep building.

Yeah.

I wanna put this in because you've mentioned Wild Spirit, Sabina, and obviously I'm a big fan of Wild Spirit as well, and one of the exercises that we did in Wild Spirit, which I thought was so helpful in coming to that realization of your self worth.

Not being dependent on what you do was when, Angela, you asked me to go and ask my colleagues what, what I brought into a room.

And it wasn't about what I did, none of it was about what I did, and it was just so liberating to think actually what I'm bringing to the room is me and not my work.

And I recommend that to anybody.

Because it just was so transformative as that first step.

I'm sure Sina you must have done something similar.

Did you have that experience as well?

Yes,

yes, I did.

I did.

We had to do that exercise too, and, yeah,, it really helps to define yourself as a being and not by what you're doing.

And your worth is intrinsic.

Your worth is intrinsic.

Yeah.

You're, you're priceless.

There is nothing that, nothing outside that you could do that would impact, define, undermine or increase your worth.

Your worth is simply intrinsic.

And you know, Angela, like making this very deeply personal.

I work in development and I work with very vulnerable communities.

And very often, you know, in our stories, in our, um, in our work, the stories that we show are of, of tremendous amount of struggle.

People that, women that don't have a lot socioeconomically that.

So for all kinds of hardships, some of them quite harrowing and unimaginable, right?

And, and the stories we tell are often of, oh, look at, look at that.

Look at what this woman has overcome.

And I don't mean to undermine in any way what these women overcome, but when you start to really spend time and work in.

Some of these vulnerable communities.

What is also overwhelming is certain kinds of abundance.

There is, there is joy, right?

There is love, there is community and the the strength that these women have, right?

And it's not just, it is inherent.

It's not just everything that they've overcome.

It's also who they are.

And, you know, it's a, it's a subtle difference.

And again, I don't mean to undermine at all what, what vulnerable communities have to struggle with, but, but there is also this joy and generative creativity, my goodness, so much creativity.

That it, that it's really inspiring in more ways than just, oh, look at what strength and overcoming resilience in, in the old sense.

Right.

Um, and I, I, I, I feel like that is something that I'm recognizing and, and also bring that to my work and, and my being as a person.

It reminds me of what we saw very much, at least in the uk, in at Covid times, you know, where everybody started to pull it together and, and communities would, even though you couldn't spend time with each other, you would, you know, make sure someone next door had some food or, you know, sanitizing wipes or whatever you were all, and we were communicating a lot more and the community really came together in a way that was much more, um, supportive and.

The typical, oh, look at the, what the Joneses have done today, so part of this beyond resilience is how can we generate that without the pain?

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

And, and I think my point, Caroline, is also that that pain is not relative.

There's pain everywhere.

Everyone has it in different ways.

But there's also abundance everywhere in different.

But you have to tap into it, right?

You have to, you have to allow it to come forth.

And sometimes it's not, you know, you, we tamp it down just like in ourselves when we're, we're trying hard, so hard.

You close down, and yet when you realize that that's not the narrative anymore, all of a sudden you feel more energetic, you feel more abundant, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And also that we don't have to define ourselves by struggle.

There is struggle.

That's what I I'm hearing you say there.

Like the Buddhists would say, you know, li life is struggle.

Or, and in any case, life throws things at us.

That's, that's part, part of it.

But we don't have to continue to be in reactivity.

Um, we can see all of the rest of the abundance, just like you were saying.

I can imagine, wow.

What if everybody was appreciated simply for the strengths that they were just in the moment for the laughter that that you happened to hear for no reason whatsoever.

Uh, for a look that you give someone when you walk by and recognize that you're not alone.

Or the, the bright color of a sari And that color then opens up a whole new world.

And I notice that it's easy to dismiss, the incredible, incredible abundance that is around us all the time and, and tapping into that allows us to tap into creativity that's.

Not it.

It's not that we don't ever have to react, but it doesn't have to define us.

Reactivity doesn't have to define us.

Creativity is who we are.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So

we're running outta time.

Yeah.

We have no, again,

I'm saying that with a big smile and in fact I'm not happy about it.

I need to stop smiling when I say

it's been a great conversation.

Which is why we're all smiling.

Sabina we're, so grateful that you've come on and, and shared all this wisdom with us.

Is there something else that we've not been able to touch on that you think is really important for our listeners to know about?

I think that this conversation, and the series of conversations that you're doing with incredible women, is, is a huge service.

Because I think we all need to Reinforce these messages and look to a world where it's beyond resilience in that, in that sense, right.

Freedom from this kind of struggle.

So thank you for doing this.

Thank you for,, having me be part of it and inviting me to be part of it.

So a lot of gratitude and love.

I'm going to say I love, which is something I say a lot I've noticed in all of our podcasts, but I love that several times in our conversation you have used the word love.

My personal idea of belief is that we don't use that word enough about ourselves, about life, about others, about work.

And so I want to thank you again for everything that you have brought to this conversation and how rich it has been, and especially thank you for bringing so much love and saying it so often.

We need to hear that word too.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Sabina.

It's been wonderful talking with you.

You too.

You too.

So Carolyn, Carolyn, we just had this incredible conversation with Sabina Duan from the Just Jobs Network, and what is it that you, what is it that really struck you and you took away from that conversation?

I'm still carrying with me her story of her 12-year-old self forcing herself to get out of bed to please her parents.

Not because they knew it, but just because she knew that was.

What they needed at the time.

And this is the something that we all do, but it's so sad in a way that, that, that, that way of thinking that you have to put yourself out for other people, um, potentially to the detriment of your own health and your own wellbeing, that is so prevalent and we are all so invested in that, especially as women.

Mm-hmm.

So to hear her story and.

Of how that resonated through her life.

It was just, I, that's what we're all about.

That's why we're doing this podcast, right?

To try and challenge that.

It's definitely why we're doing the podcast to challenge that, and my heart goes out to all of the 12 year olds.

This, this whole series has been about women and, and our angle is very much about how this resilience narrative in particular keeps.

Women in struggle and sacrifice cycles and the impact is on the whole population and everybody at the same time.

So my heart goes out to all of us, you know, because we two were 11 and 12 and, and learned at particular times what was expected of us.

And, and though that resilience narrative isn't so ingrained from past generations, way past our parents.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so what I got as a result of that conversation as well with Sabina particularly, it's brought it home again today, is that our work is to love ourselves and to learn to know ourselves differently, to expand the knowledge that we have of ourselves.

So it's not.

Just our conditioning and what we learned, which was also unconscious conditioning by parents.

And even as you just said, in Sabina's case, it wasn't even their unconscious conditioning.

It was, it was sort of hers in a way, wanting to please as all children want to please their parents.

Uh, so, so yeah, our work, I, I invite, it's, it's my work.

It's your work and it's all of our work to.

Increase our self-awareness, to expand our self-awareness, to unpack all of the narratives, to recognize that struggle is a learned behavior and not the inherent natural way forward.

Absolutely.

And doing that work isn't just for your own self benefit because this is how our organizations.

Our communities can thrive in a totally different way because all of a sudden you are doing things with purpose, with vision, with integrity, and with energy that you don't have when you're struggling, you know?

So it's like, um, bound, you know, abundance as we were talking about that could be there if we just let ourselves feel our own self-worth.

Yeah.

And, and adding to that, all of the joy, the joy of effort.

And I've just been to the gym today and I can tell you I wasn't lying there doing the easiest weights.

So it's, it's not about everything being easy, it's not too extremes.

Uh, it's.

Doing this work is for the benefit of everybody, and like you said, and it, and it then allows us to contact the abundance, but also the the nourishing, joyful challenge that we can be having that allows us to grow.

Yeah, absolutely.

So wonderful conversation.

I hope our listeners enjoyed it and I'll see you next time.

Yeah.