Kevin Paul  Welcome to the Sound On Sound People & Music Industry podcast channel with me Kevin Paul. In this episode I talk to Dave McCracken about his approach to production and how to get the best out of the artist when producing in the studio. I hope you enjoy the episode. Dave, welcome. How are you? Dave McCracken I'm good, Kevin. How are you? KP Very well thank-you, great to be here. Let's talk about some of those new bands that you're working with. DM All right. KP What's the sort of situation with that? DM Well, I just wanted to try and do something a bit different. So I just started going out and going to gigs and I got really excited by all the new bands that were sort of coming out in a scene which was really exciting, because on radio it was just all hip hop and grime, but there was like this really healthy buzz of new bands, like it comes, stems from like, say Fat White Family through to like, sort of like Fontaine's D.C. There's like a, there's a new sort of thing coming out and so I just started going out, going to gigs and I loved what I heard. So what I tried to do was help them, work with them, help them develop, help them understand what they need to do in order to sharpen their tools in their boxes. KP Yeah, sure. DM And just do EPs and records with all these new bands and I've loved it, loved every minute. It's so different, so different. KP In what way is it different to you? DM Well basically before that, I was sort of like living in New York, working on a lot of hip hop, signed to Roc Nation. It was basically me in a room on my own 24 hours a day and a rapper would pop in every now and again and then leave and it got really, really lonely. KP Right, sure. DM And kind of boring. So I said, I want to be in a room full of kids. When you haven't got an idea, you look around and there's five people looking at you with better ideas than you've got and that excites me and it's about that for me. It's about how the room is excited before you record. KP That thing of being in the room with people, that community, that community of five people, that's how a lot of those great records that we love were made, right? DM Yeah. KP And the hip hop thing, while obviously hip hop is a, I mean I'm a huge fan of hip hop. DM Same here, I'm a massive fan. KP You know, but the production approach is very different, as you've said. DM 100%. There is moments in the hip hop world where when they show up and they come and do their rhymes and do their lines and do their bars and there's a full gang in the studio, it's electric, it's incredible. KP Yeah, yeah. DM But that lasts for about an hour and then you're back on your own for another eight hours looking at kick drums. KP So you just thought, you know what, I'm just going to go and find some bands and start making records? DM Yeah, yeah. KP Wicked, wicked. Are you helping them with being signed or funding? DM Well, I've got a lot of friends and we all help each other out, you know. But it's something that I think I'm going to try and look into doing, is setting some infrastructure so I can be like a one-stop shop, really. KP Wow. DM I'm just really interested in getting in early with these bands and not telling them that they're wrong and sending them around the world, writing with all the best songwriters in the world. It's sort of sitting with them and nurturing them because they've got the tools. You don't have to do it for them, you've just got to help them. KP Yeah. DM Where, in the world I was in when I was living in New York, of course we're doing great songs, I've got like Bruno Mars in the room, you know what I mean? It's like John Legend. I've got all the, they're amazing. KP Of course. DM But when a young kid comes out and he looks at me and he's singing John Legend's words, it just isn't the same. Because I come from an indie background and a bit more alternative background, when someone says something, I want to feel it rather than just say, oh it's pretty. That's the thing I've went back into bands for. Whatever they need, it can be anything. I can change guitars or do beats. KP You'd rather do the guitars? DM Well, anything I want. KP Or both, yeah. DM Anything I want. Coffee, lemon chicken pasta, whatever they want, whatever they want, backscratch. KP That's a great name for a label actually, first release. DM Yeah, it absolutely is, first release. KP Well let's talk about like your musical background. You mentioned there that you're from indie sort of background, is that correct? Is that how, how did, what's your sort of, your route to the studio? DM Well my route to the studio basically, well, when I was growing up I was just obsessed with Depeche Mode, so I got into music through them and learning all their songs and then I just sort of fell into it really. It's like... KP How did that happen? DM I was working for Steinberg, Cubase VST when that first came out. The first time MIDI and audio came together. KP Cubase Audio. DM And it didn't work. Basically I was head of technical support for Cubase, so there was a few, like big clients and I just got friendly with them and then I got asked to, a friend of mine who was looking after him, he was called Mark Sayfritz, he was Goldie's programmer on the drum and bass scene on the infamous second album, Opus. KP Oh, yeah. DM And he called me in to help. So that was the first thing I sort of did. I was working on that crazy.. KP As a programmer? DM Yeah, yeah. Helping out, programming, just doing whatever we needed to do and I always remembered we did it down at Ridge Farm. KP Oh yeah, the residential one. DM Yeah. And We did it on a SSL J series and there was one song he had called Mother and it was a 45 drum n bass Opus, if you can imagine that. And he wouldn't let us, the engineer and everybody, they wanted to do it as a 45 minute piece. J series was maybe a few months old, they'd only tested it running automation for 10 minutes. So seven days into the mix, the computer crashed and started deleting all the automation channels. KP Helpful. So it wasn't just Steinberg. DM So, we didn't know whether to knock the desk off, because sometimes when you knock the desk off, you can blow it. KP Yeah, yeah, of course. DM Or just knock the computer off, which was a bit scary too. I don't know how we fixed it, but we only lost 10 channels, which was the effects return at the end of the desk, so that was alright. And drum n bass is kind of intense, it wasn't just sort of basic automation. KP Yeah, I've worked with Goldie in the studio. DM He's amazing. The energy. KP It's unbelievable, the energy. DM The energy he brings. KP That thing that you were talking about. DM What I want to do with bands. Exactly that. The thing is about producing right, you don't have to sit there and physically do everything, right. For me you've just got to make sure that room is electric and people are thinking of things that they've never thought before. And then all you've got to do is put a few shit mics up and record it, because if you've got the room buzzing, anything's going to be brilliant and that's what Goldie was great at. He made everyone in the room feel 10 foot tall. KP Yeah. DM And everybody went out that extra 100 percent for him. KP Did you have the aspiration when you were at Steinberg? DM No, I was just going with it. I was just going... KP Very laid back. DM Mate, mate, I'm a welder from Cumbria. I used to weld nuclear flasks. KP Really? DM Yeah. KP Okay. DM So I'm a fully classified, trained nuclear flask welder. KP Well, if I ever need a nuclear flask welder... DM Yeah, yeah. I actually burn a bit hotter than everyone else 'cause I'm a bit nuclear. So I didn't have any aspirations. I was just like, I am where I'm at, I'm not where I'm from, I am where I'm at and whatever comes, I'm gonna have a go. KP Yeah. Excellent. DM That's how I met Ian Brown. KP Oh, really? Tell me more about that. DM Well basically, Ian booked himself into a studio in Sarm. It was 99 and I was working a lot with Trevor Horn at that time, playing all the keyboards and doing beats and stuff for him. So I was always in Sarm. And I met Ian and he came in with two ideas on an 8-track, a Fostex R8 and he needed ten songs and we had six weeks to do it because he wanted it out before the year 2000. And I met him in March and after a week he told me I was producing. I was meant to be just programming and playing keyboards, but after a week he told me I was producing and I was in his band and then that's it. KP Fantastic, what a great story. DM And then I was with him for three years after that, did three albums with him. KP I mean that's not unusual, I just do something on the session and someone takes a liking to you and that's it, you're off, you're in, you're doing your thing. So many people you think the role of the producer is just to sit there and tell people what to do. DM Nah, the first thing you've got to do before you tell anyone what to do is listen to everyone. KP Right, okay. Can you explain more about that process, that thought? DM Well basically, you know what I mean, you talk about the songs, you talk about what the songs mean, you hear everyone's take on it and then you set up a few goals and things that we need to do that should fulfill everyone's needs. KP How do you approach that? DM You just gotta sit and listen and get to know people and when you get to know people, you find out how they want to express themselves and then just, if they want to get from A to B and there's four people that want to get from A to B and they've all got different visions, you sort of just make a toll bridge and just get them all to come to one. KP Right, are you like a conduit for them? DM Yeah, I'm just, I basically, I try to be as objective as possible but if someone does something great and they don't agree, I'll go to war with them to keep it because them moments, you know what it's like in the studio. KP Yeah, of course. DM You can be playing that guitar part over and over and over and over and then the guitar string snaps and something happens and that becomes the loop. KP That's the loop, yeah. DM You know what I mean? It's them moments, it's them moments that I really live for. I remember when I was working on Playing The Angel with Ben Hillier and Depeche and because it's all programmed and it's all modular and it's all MIDI, he used to do this amazing thing where he used to get us all sitting up and rather than it being all synced, everybody just sort of pressed play when they wanted on the sequencers. KP Okay and just join in? DM And it ran away with itself. But I'm telling you, there was a few moments about 16 minutes into the jam that it was doing something that computers shouldn't be doing. It was like Sly and the Family Stone. It was brilliant. And all we did... KP Take those three minutes out or whatever. DM That's the song. It's really hard to make machines jam with each other... KP But that's a great way to do it. DM That's how Ben described it to us. It was like, how do you make machines not think about the one and zero? KP Well, it's interesting you say that because one of the things that in this series, speaking with a lot of producers from, let's say, a live background but how different is it when you're working with MIDI? Because there isn't that spontaneity that you've just described. There's no guitar string snapping. I mean, maybe in years gone by machines wouldn't work properly... DM Which gives it a thing. It's like with the old MPCs and the SPs, they couldn't handle the MIDI information. KP SO they'd set them up or... DM No, they'd just prioritise, so always A1 would trigger before A2. So your kick drum always went on A1 and your snare went on A2. KP That's right. DM And then your hats went on A3 because, and they always hit a slight behind, so that's how you got that... KP That's how you got the shuffle, because of the note information. DM And that's from a mistake. KP Yeah, very interesting. DM You know what I mean. That's what's interesting for me. KP How do you create that, that jam machine? DM Well, basically I tend not to put swing and stuff on there so I mainly work, when I'm doing grooves I mainly work with velocities and attack of the sample, so using the attack of the sample you can make it drag or I would really tight yeah and it all depends what sort of stuff you do and you know what I mean, it's like I remember with Mark Bell on Exciter, which is a totally different sound and Depeche Mode album. KP Yeah, yeah, very laid back, very chilled out. DM Well no, it's very Bjork-esque and how he used to do it, everything was clinical so if there was a sample played and another sample came in, that sample would be edited out from that point. So everything's in clean air. So that's how you get that sort of bachelorette, so I'd have crusty that... and that's another approach and he did some mad stuff when I was working with him. He did this amazing thing with this chord pad. He wanted to make a glitch so he ran the full three minutes of the chord onto a CDR, burnt it to a CDR, got a razor blade, cut all the CDR, put it back in and ran it back in and it was just pops. It just clicks and plops out of nowhere but you heard the chords underneath. KP Amazing. DM I was blown away. Absolute blown away. It was, he was proper, he was a little scientist, that dude. KP Right. DM Mark Bell, legend. Absolute amazing. KP Having not sort of come from the traditional tape op route. DM I don't know anything, cos I'm all self taught. KP Where did you, so did you just learn that by just watching and trying? DM Yeah. Just being in sessions. KP Yeah. DM You know what I mean? KP And just having that... DM I've just been really lucky, I've just worked with some amazing people. That's it, simple as that. I've worked with Flood, Steve Osborne, Steve Fitzmaurice, Trevor Horne, Bob Clearmountain. I've worked with so many people that I just don't take my eyes off them. But I've never actually sat down and been taught anything. KP I mean, I don't think many people... DM I don't even know how to use a patchbay. KP Oh, come on now. DM No, I really don't. It just doesn't make any sense to us. KP Well I mean, if you want, I can show you. DM Yeah, absolutely. I'll take you up on that mate. KP So many people go to universities and colleges now and they're taught how to use equipment. But the number one question I'm always asked by people is well, how do you do, how are you doing that? And I'm like, well, it doesn't matter how I'm doing it, how are you doing it? And you say that you haven't been taught, but these guys have been taught but you've obviously got a very inquisitive mind. DM Yeah, I know what sounds make people excited once I've talked to them. So it's all about how I make that room sound so they're excited. Make sure when people show up in the studio, they're on point, they know what the record's about and everyone's walking down the same path. KP Where did you learn that approach from? DM From everyone, everyone I work with. Like Trevor Horne's amazing at it. Ben Hilliard's amazing at it. KP You just literally absorb it. DM It's, to be honest, out of everyone who's great who I've worked with, everyone's different. The common thing is they always make the room feel great. KP Leave room for the magic to come into the room. DM Don't have the answers, just sort of know which sort of direction you're going and don't be, you know what I mean? I hate them sessions where you show up, I do these writing sessions sometimes and they don't even know any lyrics that they're going to sing. And they'll go, I'll just make a little vibe, right? So I'll get my drum machine up and I put a kick drum on and the first thing they say to me is, oh I don't like that kick drum. And what I say to them of course is, oh you don't like the kick drum? Well, I don't like any of your words, because you haven't got any. You know what I mean? It's like, it's ridiculous to sort of pull someone up on a tiny little detail. It's like, imagine you want to write the best song in the world but you only can use things that would fit in a matchbox. How are you going to do that? You put yourself in a box before you've even started. First thing I love to do is just free people and just go in a direction. It doesn't have to be perfect. If it's perfect, it's a fluke. KP It's luck, it's pure luck. DM It's pure luck and that happens and that's great. I've had them moments but also I've had the moments where no-one's believed in a song and I've had to present it four times until people got it, you know what I mean. It's like the Beyoncé song I did. That was three years old, done with a different artist and just by chance she heard it. KP How did that come about then? How did you end up working with arguably one of the biggest artists of all time? DM Well, it's just one of them things. I was working with an artist called Hugo and I'd written a song with my songwriting partner, Amanda Ghost and we'd writ this song, and it was a great song. And three years went by and Amanda was in New York. She'd just writ You're Beautiful for James Blunt and she was having a meeting with Beyoncé and she played Beyoncé the song. She loved it, so Amanda phoned me at 11 o'clock at night saying, Beyoncé loves the song, she wants to cut it in three hours but at the moment it doesn't sound like an R&B song. I'm like, alright, so I ran back to the studio, did the roughest arse demo I could. And then, yeah, I got it. KP Amazing. DM And then I flew to New York the following day to record her vocals and I ended up getting two songs in that album. KP Yeah, I noticed. DM And that girl, I've never seen anything like it. It was, it, out of anyone in my whole career, no one works harder than her, like seriously. KP That's, I mean, that's pretty obvious, isn't it? DM Yeah, the reason why she's so successful is someone with that talent who works that hard, she's unstoppable. We were in Rock the Mic in New York and there was, oh there was Pharrell, Timbaland, Stargate, Tricky and Dream, like all the A-List Producers, right. And in a period of four weeks, she cut, she, so she writ, recorded and finished 70 songs. KP Wow. DM In four weeks. KP That's a hell of a lot of output. DM She did that and, but she had a crew of, you know what I mean? There was, basically you're lucky if you've got three days in there as a producer, because there's that many producers trying to get on it. And I got two songs on it. Nuclear Welder. Nuclear Welder on Beyoncé, brilliant. KP Bands can be nervous going to the studio especially bands that maybe haven't been in the studio before or have little experience and you might have touched upon it already. How do you sort of make them, I mean, I know you talk to them and stuff like that. How do you, you just talk to them? That's your trick is it? DM Well, it isn't a trick. It's just it's, get to know them just a little bit. Like yeah, I have a theory and I have a way to get stuff done quick and efficient and you nail it because as an engineer and a producer, at the end of the day, your job is to turn something in, even if the world is falling out around you and there's fire coming out of the sky and there's a dragon coming from the kitchen. That's the true world of being a producer. It isn't about the correct way to do it. Every single project I've done, I've always picked the perfect mic for the drums. It doesn't work, you know what I mean. So you've got to think of something else, it's about thinking on your feet. What can you do? I want to go over there, that's the perfect mic to go due East but it doesn't work. I'll go to mics that go due West. Ah, but if we roll all the top off them AKG's, it'll sort of sound similar. You know, it's that, that I love. KP Fast thinking. DM Just problem solving. Just getting yer over the finish line. KP Well, the role of producer as much as it is... DM And it's always my fault, it's never anyone else's fault. If someone blows an amp, it's fine, don't worry about it, I've got it. It's my job, you just enjoy yourself. KP A deflector. DM Yeah, just anything you're worrying about, I've got a big... KP Shoulder. DM Yeah, I've got just one shoulder. My left shoulder's really big. Just put it on my left shoulder. Not my right, just my left. It'll be brilliant. KP Do you do a lot of lyric writing? DM Yep, whatever they need. Whatever they need. If they want me to do it all, I'll do it all. If they want me just to do the kick drums, I can do that. KP How do you approach writing lyrics? DM You get it through their point of view. So you get them to think about things and get them to describe it back to you. And then you, they tell you as they're talking to you, I'll get them to describe a feeling of helplessness but it's got a positive twist that comes into the chorus, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you get them to talk about, like, what would you feel like if you were helpless? Like, who would you call, you know what I mean. And then they sort of, they give you the, basically they give you a palette, what feels real, do you know what I mean. They use certain words, everyone does, everyone uses certain words a lot. I say amazing or awesome a lot. I don't know why, I just like it. Especially my accent, which I shouldn't say. KP Amazing. DM Amazing. You know, it's awesome, brilliant. So you get their sort of palette and then you sort of just try and tell as simple story as possible. DM That's it? DM That's it. That's all I do. KP Fantastic. Is there like a process or a piece of equipment or a plug-in that you use or try to use or is your go-to on every session, every song? DM Well there's things I like, you know what I mean. It's like, I love all the UAD stuff, I think it's absolutely killer. So like my favourite little chain in there is, you know what I mean, it's like if I had the outboard it'd be the same, I just love, I love the Neve channel, I love the LA2A channel. Just simple things like that. I think the new RCA, the Capitol Chamber is incredible, I don't know how they've done that. KP I noticed you had a picture on your Insta of a, is it a mixer, a little RCA... DM Yes, that's my friends. KP What's that? DM It's an old radio, six into two mixer. KP That looks awesome. That looks really, really cool. DM I've got some pictures, they all opened it up and it's all been refixed and stuff. It's my friend Aaron Horne's studio and he's got some great gear. KP I noticed another picture of you is of a slide. DM There's a studio down in Ramsgate called Big Jelly Studios. KP I might have heard of that. DM And it's awesome. You just rock up, you stay there, you can sleep there like, it's this old chapel, right. They've got great mics, the people are lovely and they give you the keys and it's like your place for two weeks. KP Amazing, fantastic. DM But it's sort of, the studio's a bit like Abbey Road, there's a mezzanine up, so it's a chapel. KP Like Studio 2, yeah. DM Yes, so you go up the stairs to the control room and then you come down on the slide. The best story about it is that the guy who owns it, Mike, he got that excited when he got the slide in and basically there's no runoff, it's like it ends in the wall, right. So there's this little clever thing you've got to do to get off it, but he didn't think about that and when he got it he goes oh slide, great. So he pledged it up. So he got the polish out, polished out the slide, right, went down, sprained his ankle. Sometimes in studios, do you know what's really hard. When you're with a band, to go into the studio for one day and cut a song. Really hard. Especially when you've got to sort of reinvent it and sort of get the thing of what it is. But Big Jelly's great, it's like, it's reasonably priced, it's really friendly, all the gear's great and you just sort of make a mess. Plug a load of things in and like when I was in there doing Swim Deep, I think I didn't get the drums out, like I did loads of other things, but it took me three days to be happy with the drum sound and I'd recorded maybe four songs with drums. But I got it best on like the third day so I just went back and recorded it again. KP What's your thing on quantization of live performances? DM Just depends who they are, what band. KP You just literally take it as a track by track... DM It all depends what it is and what's the objective. KP Yeah. You come back to that again, don't you. DM Yeah. I find it's weird, you know what I mean. It's like, 6 Music's cool if you don't quantize it because it's sort of that thing. To hear unquantized music on Radio 1 is kind of weird, do you know what I mean. It's like, where is it? Is it Radio 1, Radio 2, 6 Music, is it for Northern Rhythm and then we won't put any drums on and we'll sing backwards, you know what I mean. It's just whatever you need really. Like what do I try and, let me think about is, that's actually a really good question. KP Because everyone talks about what they do. I want to know what you try not to do. It doesn't have to be a process, it could be a train of thought, it could be an environment thing. DM I try, I sort of do anything because, you know what I mean, I've like, I've worked with basically DrumnBass, Goldie, Ian Brown, Depeche Mode, Beyoncé, Kanye West, you know what I mean, it's like, everything's so different to work on. I can't work with Kanye like I do with Beyoncé. I can't work with Beyoncé like I do with Depeche Mode. So I haven't really got anything that I don't try. KP So maybe you try not to rule anything out. DM I always try and keep an open mind. You know what, the only thing I don't like in studios is when people start macro producing, where you're in a studio and it isn't even mixed and no one really, truly knows how true the sound is and then people start telling you to do an eighth tweak on a filter that only bats can hear. I don't like doing stuff like that because it's all just about their ego, you know what I mean. It's not to do with the right sound or not, it's just that's the alpha person in the room, he just needs to do that. I normally just try and get him to make dinner and get all that stuff done before he comes back. Why do you want to do that, sounds great. There's no rules. There really isn't any rules. KP Try not to rule anything out. DM Whatever sparks someone, or whatever gives anyone a bit of internal light, whatever that is. KP You leave space for that, do you? DM Always. It's gotta come from them, never from me. It's not my, it's not me. KP Yeah, sure. DM Cos they don't, like what I find, especially with the artistes, if you don't support them and let them do it, I can do it, it's simple, but it's way better if they do it, it really is. KP Dave, it's been absolutely fantastic catching up with you after all these years. I really appreciate you taking the time to see me. DM Anytime mate. KP And I'll speak to you soon. DM Awesome. KP Thank-you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all our other episodes. And just before you go, let me point you to the soundonsound.com/podcasts website page where you can explore what's playing on our other channels. This has been a Mixbus production by me, Kevin Paul, for Sound On Sound.