Kevin Paul:  Welcome to the Sound On Sound People & Music Industry podcast channel with me, Kevin Paul. In the latest of my MixBus episodes, I talk to a five time Grammy Award-winning engineer, producer and mixer, Steve Dub. Steve is a person who I literally met on my first ever day in the studio and has guided me continuously throughout my career. His passion for creating sounds within the studio environment is second to none, I hope you can hear that in this interview. Steve, as usual, thank you so much for your help and guidance. How are you Steve? Steve Dub: Very well, thank you. Nice to see you. Kevin Paul: Great to be here. How did you start in the music business? Steve Dub: Okay, so I was at school and doing an 'A' level or two and a bit disillusioned with it. So I naughtily used to play, not go to school a lot. So I came back home one day and got something called the Yellow Pages and looked up studios and rang them all, pestered them all and got some interviews and so I was like 17, came up to London, did a few interviews at like Good Earth and a few interesting studios like that and then went to a place called Radio Luxembourg, which was in Shepherd's Market, which was an interesting little sort of production studio and a little recording studio and I got a job there as a runner and I used to do things like, there used to be a show called National Fresh, which was a sort of hip hop show with this guy called Mike Allen. Kevin Paul: Oh yeah, I remember Mike Allen, Capital Radio. Went to do Capital Radio. Steve Dub: Yeah. So he used to do this independent radio show that was sent around and yeah, so I used to record that with him and then he sort of would have lots of American import hip hop records full of swearing which they couldn't broadcast, so I used to sort of edit that out for him and instead of bleeping, I used to sort of re-edit the track and reverse it, which he really liked. So I'd do that and then I'd have to run off loads of tapes and send 'em all out to independent radio stations to broadcast off of reel to reel, which I love doing but they also had a little, I mean, amazing to think about it now, but they had this little 16 track Studer tape machine and a little Neve desk, a little, I think like, I can't remember what series Neve it was, but a lovely old knee. Kevin Paul: What, like a broadcast, like a... Steve Dub: No, like a proper old. Kevin Paul: A proper old one. Steve Dub: A bit like the one at Konk, so probably the 8000 series. Kevin Paul: Quite a big desk then. Oh a smalll version of, not 40 channels or something, yeah. Steve Dub: Yeah, but a small, a small version, 16 channels, no 16 channels and it was, yeah, amazing little recording room. And you know, at weekends was just able to go in and record and muck about and start to enjoy and I realized that's what I really wanted to do. So I think eventually I probably got sacked from there. At the time you could do something called YTS. So I went to a YTS scheme, which weirdly was supposedly a sort of film composition sort of course, but somehow they could sort of under that you could go and do what you wanted and I got a job at a place called Konk, a placement, which you know well. Kevin Paul: Which we do, yeah. Steve Dub: Which was just, yeah, amazing really to sort of walk into that place and just see what was going on was just amazing. Kevin Paul: It was a great place, really vibey, buzzy place. Steve Dub: It was amazing and it was like, I think it was 1988 and I think pretty much the first session I walked in to do was the Stone Roses. So yeah... Kevin Paul: Wow, that was a great day for you. Steve Dub: Obviously I didn't, I was only making tea, but yeah. Kevin Paul: But still like... Steve Dub: Yeah, with John Leckie sitting there, it's like, wow. I had no idea what, you know, what situation I was in and how lucky I was but I think they'd done a majority of it in Wales and then they'd sort of come to London to do a lot of overdubs, so it's really interesting to sort of watch that process. Kevin Paul: Do you play, are you a musician? Steve Dub: Not really. Muck about if I need to, but I remember, you know, things like for all the guitars, they would sort of print where they were at with the mix or the track onto a little four track and do you remember that piano room at the back of Konk? Kevin Paul: Yeah. Steve Dub: You know, John would sit in there with his guitar for days just practicing all the parts until he got 'em perfect and they come and record them and then they did, I think they did quite a few drum tracks in there, so... Kevin Paul: Amazing. Steve Dub: Just sounded amazing. And all the vocals they did at the desk with a pair of Auratone's, like masses of reverb, no headphones and then just that whole out of phase thing to get rid of the bleed. I mean, just yeah, amazing. Kevin Paul: You were there for a while and then did you meet George there, George Holt? Steve Dub: Yeah, so I was assisting there and doing like lots of amazing sessions. And then in the evenings myself and George would muck about, you know, he had a, he'd just bought an EMS and there was an SSL there so we had a sampler then we had an S900 or an S950. Yeah, so we... Kevin Paul: And you started making tracks? Steve Dub: ...made a record, yeah. Kevin Paul: Do you remember what it was was called? Steve Dub: Yeah, God is in the House it was called, it was on a label called FFRR. So we got a deal with Pete Tong. Kevin Paul: Pete Tong's label, yeah. Steve Dub: They gave us 10 grand, so we bought a sampler. Somebody at the studio had given us a little rain desk and then so in Clapham where George lived, he had a garage downstairs and just set a studio with Dada, which just became a little thing. At first it was just a few little synths and a little desk, then this guy Steve Travell turned up with a big Amek desk and a studio tape machine and suddenly it was a studio, you know. Kevin Paul: When was this, this would've been what? Steve Dub: 90, yeah, I guess 92, maybe. Kevin Paul: 92, okay, so that's like the real explosion of dance music. Steve Dub: I guess, lots of little labels in London. So there was a shop called Zoom. Kevin Paul: Yeah. I remember in Camden. Steve Dub: I made some other records with friends and sort of got them signed to that label and then through association with that label, I met someone called Billy Nasty, he was a dj. Kevin Paul: Yeah, I remember Billy. Steve Dub: And he and I started, you know, making tunes together and we had a band called Vinyl Blair, which was signed to Hard Hands Flying, which was... Kevin Paul: Yes, Blimey, Hard Hands, Leftfields label, yeah. Steve Dub: Leftfield's label, yeah. So you know all those interesting things started to happen from that and because we had this studio, you know a lot of the work started to come through that studio. Kevin Paul: Right, okay. And you were at this studio, you were engineering obviously, or were you programming. Were you just like It was because it was a general... Steve Dub: Mucking about. Learning really without knowing it, you know, sleeping under the desk, playing. Kevin Paul: You were right in the zone there, you were just in that place. Steve Dub: Just obsessed with it, yeah. Every day, all day, stoned and happy, you know, just making, mucking about really, playing, which I think is the best way to learn. Kevin Paul: For sure. Steve Dub: And not loads and loads of gear. I mean, I remember in Konk being sort of overawed by everything, but then I guess through that process of assisting and doing recalls, it's a really good system for actually learning, 'cause as you're sort of documenting stuff and writing it down, you start to understand why people you're working with have done certain things. Kevin Paul: Yeah and then patch bays and you understand how patches work. Steve Dub: Patch bays very much so yeah, really important part of it I think. Even now on a laptop, having that structure in your head really helps. Kevin Paul: Signal flow. Signal flow is really important and one of the things people don't really learn on a laptop is signal flow because they don't understand how things are linked. Steve Dub: Well gain structure back then is really important then for hiss and things, obviously 'cause it was tape and so much stuff and you know, gates and expanders trying to suppress it a bit. So like seeing some people like very conscious of clipping and then other people that just, you know, weren't and making really exciting records. So you're kind of like, oh okay, that's interesting. Kevin Paul: In what way? So what sort of... Steve Dub: Just more the sort of pop mentality. Well yeah, literally, Renegade Soundwave, bands like that where you're like, they come in with a multitrack with 24 samples laid up and they've done a whole arrangement on the SSL then, you know, Gary would go in and do the vocal and they'd make this amazing record in front of you and you're like, that's amazing. Like wow, you know, with the flow they were doing you're like wow, this is just genius like and tuning all the samples through weird, old harmonisers, all clunky gear, you know, like an old H910 to tune brass samples and stuff. Kevin Paul: And is that where you learned or got your ideas from in terms of your own production, did you absorb a lot? Steve Dub: I think that's where I just, I absorbed a lot and I made a decision that that's really, really kind of what I liked to do, that kind of music, more unusual, well I suppose not, I suppose just more unusual in terms of the way it's put together which at the time I suppose sampling was fairly new and it was like, you know, working with bands in one room and then working with samplers in the other room, you're like wow, this is interesting. Kevin Paul: And you kind of gravitated towards the electronic sample thing? Steve Dub: Yeah, I think a lot of the time as well at the time there were people doing both, you know, there were, very much that sort of remix culture was emerging where you'd get a band like, I dunno, That Petrol Emotion or something and then somebody would come in with a sampler and you know, get loads of loops up and beats and do a really interesting remix, which was literally, you know, a piece of tape with some SMPTE on it and a sampler running. Kevin Paul: And you'd take the vocal? Steve Dub: Take the vocal and some bits of guitar and whatever people were doing, yeah. Kevin Paul: How would you define your style of work? Like if someone says I want Steve Dub to help me make a record, what's the pitch, what can they expect from you? Steve Dub: I suppose it's like everyone, you just try and adapt to the situation and and help them out in areas that they need, which I guess gets easier as you get older 'cause you've perhaps got more relevant experience sometimes. So I guess it's that thing of somebody coming in now and going, well you know, I wanna mix this record but I'm not quite sure what's lacking and then I think sometimes just by starting to work on it, the shortcomings are revealed and it's not until you actually start to mix the tunes sometimes that you hear it. So a lot of the time I work with this guy called Pablo, who uses lots of samples and we'll, you know, the rough mix will sound vibey and interesting 'cause it's all kind of crunched together and as with so many times, you know, you start to sort of deconstruct it and you're hearing flams and you know, things that and yeah, it's an interesting process 'cause I think sometimes when you leave it in that kind of homogenised state, you know that thing of like when you're working on a drum machine or a sampler, the stereo outs sound amazing. Kevin Paul: Yeah, but when you split it all out... Steve Dub: ...it sort of loses something. Kevin Pual: It loses the connect. Steve Dub: Definitely, yeah. Kevin Paul: And how do you make decisions as to when to keep something like that and when to dissect it, how do you make that decision? Steve Dub: Welll exactly, yeah. What sounds best really, 'cause sometimes I think, yeah, they sound great out the MPC. All right, I can't turn the snare up but they sound brilliant. Kevin Paul: But who cares? Steve Dub: It sounds, if it's right, I think so much as well, when you're making records what's wrong sometimes actually makes it right, so if the hi-hat is a bit weird and a bit loud, that's actually what is making that groove exciting, when everything's too correct sometimes, it can sound a little bit stagnant, especially now when it's so easy to sort of make everything very refined with computers and everything's very sterile and digital anyway, getting that sort of analogue wrongness, well not wrongness, but you know, incongruities back in and dirt. I mean that's often what I'm trying to do, take clean things and make them sound old and dirty. Kevin Paul: And how do you do that in the modern world, how, how are you personally adapting to that? Steve Dub: I guess it depends where you are. If you're in a sort of studio where you've got access to that gear then like that and then if you're in a situation where you've got your laptop, same mental approach I suppose but just using plug-ins, you know or whatever. Kevin Paul: What, distortion or saturation? Steve Dub: Anything, cos there's so many around, aren't there, you know, like cassette plug-ins or you know, the UAD stuff. Kevin Paul: Emulator or... Steve Dub: Yeah, anything really. Kevin Paul: Just give it some attitude. Steve Dub: Sticking a load of hiss on it, seeing that and then mixing that in with the compression. I don't, you know, there's just, I suppose all those things that you pick up by working in a studio you know, sometimes if you sort of take those things and go well why did it sound so good sort of crunched onto tape and you try and sort of recreate that process sometimes. So perhaps putting a distortion before you compress the track, you know, before you compress the vocal so you can drive it a bit more into the compressor and you know, although you're not aware of it being massively distorted, it's given it more of an edge somehow. I don't, I dunno, you know, it's just, I think those processes that you come across in a studio sometimes by accident are really sort of interesting and sort of valuable to hang onto just in terms of what you do in a computer sometimes. Kevin Paul: Well it's difficult isn't it when you, I mean particularly if you haven't grown up with those processes. Steve Dub: To reverse engineer it, yeah. Kevin Paul: To sort of try and identify when listening to maybe records that you've made, for instance. Steve Dub: Yeah, like why does the Otis Redding vocal sound like it does, or, you know, what was the process in that recording, or The Beatles, or... Kevin Paul: Yeah, are you so, maybe not now, but would you have done a lot of that reverse engineering? Steve Dub: No, just muck about. Kevin Paul: Just literally mucking about grabbing stuff, going okay you know what let's, oh this is an interesting box, let me put something through it and see what it sounds like. Steve Dub: Yeah totally, you know, or this is a synthesiser with an audio input, what do these drums sound like through it. Kevin Paul: Yeah, put the sound through and play the filter through it and play with the filters or the oscillator or whatever. Steve Dub: And I guess as well when you are young and a bit less knowledgeable about sort of what's technically correct, you know, you're using things that aren't impedance matched and stuff and so there's loads of buzz coming out the synth and drums are going through it much too hot, but they sound cool. Kevin Paul: Yeah, I think everyone can say that some of their great records, if we actually listen to some of them, they're riddled with technical mistakes. Steve Dub: Definitely. I mean, but all great records are, I think it's like... Kevin Paul: And like, let's face it, if you were making records in the 70s, you weren't worried about the calibration of the desk and the meters would've been like all the way like in the red and no one's going, oh actually you need to turn down the stereo bus because Steve Dub: Totally. Kevin Paul: You need to turn down stereo bus because it's distorting, it sounds great. Steve Dub: Sounds amazing. You know, you're coming back off tape and it's, I mean that's the thing as well, you were always going to tape back then. So even at Konk I remember, you know, we had, it was always, there was an Atari tape machine there. That was the thing I think, you were always going to half inch and it was always being checked off half inch. Eventually it became DAT but they very much had a sound those machines, which was part of the sort of finished sound of the record, you know and the SSL compressor aswell had a big part of it, so... Kevin Paul: Are those things that you still try to emulate in your mixes today? Steve Dub: Structurally I suppose, yeah. I would quite often use like the UAD tape machines and stuff on a mix bus. They definitely put it into a certain space. I think if you wanna make a record with huge subs on it, they don't always work but if you're trying to do that thing where it's contained and things are the sort of are a certain size, then they work really well, as soon as you try and go beyond those and sort of make, I dunno you know, big massive kicks and stuff... Kevin Paul: Yeah, although you know, if you were making Dub Reggae. Steve Dub: But they were modifying everything as well to do that stuff. Kevin Paul: Oh really? Steve Dub: Yeah, there's a studio in Croydon called Ariwa, the Mad Professor's place. You know, he used to work for Soundcraft and he still uses his Soundcraft desk that he's modified and he has a channel that he's tweaked that is the bass channel. You know, he has the drums in the same place against the wall, really dead, sound mad in a room, but you listen to him in a room and they sound amazing. And he bought an SSL and didn't like it, put it back against the wall and kept the Soundcraft. And again he has the tape machine tweaked in a certain way, certain channel for the kick, certain channel for the bass, all kind of... Kevin Paul: All the bias. Steve Dub: All the bias is different and it, yeah he doesn't, I seem to remember like he doesn't even compress the bass going to tape, it's all done... Kevin Paul: Through the machine. Steve Dub: Through the machine, yeah. Kevin Paul: Yeah, wow. Let's talk about The Chemical Brothers. How did that relationship come about, 'cause you've worked with them pretty much from day one right? Steve Dub: From yeah, like second or third track they did. Yeah so again through Dada and through the same connection, so Leftfield asked them to do a remix of a track called Open Up.. Kevin Paul: Right, with Johnny Lydon, yeah. Steve Dub: Yeah and so 'cause I worked in the studios there, they booked me in a studio for Tom and Ed to come into. So they came in, we did the mix, went really well and then I think they said, oh you know, we're doing some tunes they just got a deal with Boy's Own I think, Junior of Boy's Own, you know, would I be up for doing them which of course I was and then yeah, we just, we started. Kevin Paul: That's a relationship that's what, how many years now, it's over 20 odd years right? Steve Dub: 25 years I reckon. Kevin Paul: 25 years because they're just releasing... Steve Dub: Yeah, Surrender. Kevin Paul: Surrender again, 20th anniversary. Steve Dub: Yeah, so that was 1999 wasn't it, so I think we started working in about 94 and again that, you know, a big part of that sort of studio is just the fun of having all that mad gear put stuff through. So there was an EMS in there, there were some Oberheims, there was a little sort of Oberheim Four voice, just great you know. Kevin Paul: With The Chemical Brothers, are you taking an active part in the writing or are you, is it just... Steve Dub: Not really, it's more about, I mean it's is changed a lot over the years, the process. So early days, especially like the first album, Tom and Ed used to come in a bit more with stuff a little bit less developed and then we'd sort of I suppose develop it and finish it more in the studio. Whereas now they have an amazing studio of their own full of the most insane gear, so he spends a lot of time on his own now writing and getting all that stuff together and then Ed goes down and they sort of, they get the record in a more finished place. But having said that, we still then sometimes completely rip it apart and we always, always, always do a mix that's the sort of the straight mix and then we go mad on it and I just, for an hour or two or three or however long they can bear, I just destroy it. Kevin Paul: The Dub mix. Steve Dub: Yeah. And then bits of that, stems from that, sounds from that end up on the main version. So it might just be a mad AMS going on in the background of a drop or something but that'll get recorded and we've worked a way now of getting all that stuff so that we can record it and it's not always the mix recorded with some lunatic like me going mad on it, we're just recording the element we want out of the mix, whether it be the delay spins or the reverb smashing off a snare or the AMS. Using AMS a lot, a 15-80. Kevin Paul: The old delay? Steve Dub: Yeah, that's a really, really big part of that sound. Kevin Paul: Is that where your name come from, the dub mix? Because that's what people used to do a lot, didn't they? You do the main version then you... Steve Dub: Muck about, yeah. Kevin Paul: The dub mix which was like turn off the vocal and like just go crazy on the instrumental. Is that where your name comes from? Steve Dub: Yeah, I think so and the love of doing that came from, again, back to Konk, like when I used to do the assisting and do the recalls, everyone would go home and your job was to then stay up for two or three hours and document the session but I used to just used to muck up out of the tracks as well so sort of, without them knowing sort of, you know, turn off all the vocals normally and guitars and then just do like some weird version of the track where I distorted all the bass and drums and, 'cause I was listening to things like I think probably fantasy FM at home and you know, all the early sort of acid records and amazing sort of like KLF records and stuff. Kevin Paul: At that time, music wise, certainly electronic music was, was pretty rock and roll, wasn't it? I mean, it was literally anything goes and there wasn't these predefined genres for a start? Steve Dub: No. Kevin Paul: There was no trance house or, it was just house music. Steve Dub: That came about quite quickly though. I think as soon as clubs needed to sort of market their nights a bit, then there's so by, definitely by 90s, well, to my knowledge anyway, the nights were having themes like early nineties. Nothing I did before. There were sort of certainly not as many genres as there are now. The thing with doing those sort of records was that yeah, it was again, it was just sort of the idea of playing and enjoying and being in a social situation where people that actually were your friends and having a nice time together rather than now where you're sort of sitting on a laptop on your own. They were always, all those records because it was always in a studio, it was always a social situation, it was always a collaborative situation, it was always working towards a point. So you'd be like, right, we've got 12 hours in a room. You know it is 10am let's try and start printing and mix this by nine o'clock and you always had that endpoint and it was always a really good focus point of the day to try and get finished by then. Kevin Paul: Yeah the deadline is a good thing, isn't it? Steve Dub: Really was. Kevin Paul: The deadline is, well it still is. I mean, you know. Steve Dub: Just doesn't exist so much anymore. Kevin Paul: Well, we've all worked on those projects where there's no deadline and you just think it's squeezing the life out of everything because you know, the deadline as you say, encouraged you to finish it and you'd have to let go of it. At 10 in the morning there was somebody else in the studio and you just have to go, okay, how it is right now is how it's going out. Steve Dub: And there was an excitement to that as well. Kevon Paul: Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Steve Dub: I remember being in situations in rooms where there's, you know, two people on the desk doing fades and pans and I'd be on a sort of half inch flying in backing vocals 'cause there was no room on the multi-track for it. Somebody else was doing other stuff and it was, you know, it was the idea, five people in a room were coming together to make, to print this mix that and it was also, I remember as well, like you know, a bit later on when you kind of get a job and you'd go, oh wow I'm going to Townhouse and you kind of, you would put you in a sort of slightly, not nervous, but you'd be like, right, I've gotta go and you know, I've gotta go and do my best. Kevin Paul: You've gotta go and perform. Steve Dub: Yeah, exactly. It was a really nice feeling. Kevin Paul: You've got to deliver. Steve Dub: And I suppose that slight nervousness was really good as well. Kevin Paul: Kept you on your toes for sure. And also getting all that equipment to work. Steve Dub: Which often didn't. Kevin Paul: In harmony. Steve Dub: Not sitting around getting a maintenance engineer down to get it to work. Interesting how people would think on their feet though, in their situations. I remember like one time someone had got a remix to do, he'd be sent a multi-track with no sync reference, no tempo reference, nothing, just had code that wasn't related to anything. So he selected a couple of tracks to delete, you know like I dunno, shake or a code or something he wasn't using, tuned the multi-track down half speed to a 30eps tape down to 15eps and manually played a cowbell in on a track as tight as he could for the whole track. Put the tape back to 30eps. Fed that into an SBX-80 is it, that old Roland box and that spat the sink out for the samplers. Brilliant. You know. Kevin Paul: You mixed a record for Moby. Steve Dub: I did. Kevin Paul: Did you do that here? Steve Dub: No, I did that in a studio in Forest Hill which had a nice little SSL desk in it and stuff. Kevin Paul: What was that like? Steve Dub: It was good. You know, obviously working remotely with someone like that is... Kevin Paul: You did that all remotely? Steve Dub: Yeah. Kevin Paul: Okay. That works quite well these days doesn't it, remote mixing for the most part, for the most part. Steve Dub: Definitely, especially when, you know someone like that, they've produced it very much in a way they like and they've recorded lots of things in a really interesting way, like tape delays and you know, there's lots of cool stuff going on, on the session so it's not like you're sort of stuck for finding things to make it work. It's all sounding pretty cool anyway. Kevin Paul: How did you approach some of the songs with regards to mixing, what's your starting point there with those, you know, with track, with a particular song, like. Steve Dub: I dunno, I suppose I just guess I just start enjoying it, really listen to it, like it, enjoy it, start to understand it a bit, you know, which is very hard to do in eight hours sometimes or 12 hours. That's why it's nice to do albums 'cause you can then go back over tracks and go oh no, I get where that fits with the other one now and maybe go back and apply some of the things you've done on some of the other tracks to the sort of other tracks. Kevin Paul: Yeah because as you mix the rec, an album in the old days, you'd always go back to the first two or the first three tracks because you've got the vibe by about track three or four. Steve Dub: Or they'd also do this thing where they would record the drums in three or four days and there was a drum sound, so once you've got the drum sound for the album, that was pretty much it, you know, which obviously doesn't happen so much now. Kevin Paul: Are you all in the box now? Steve Dub: Depending on the project, depending on the budget, depending on the studio. Both really. Kevin Paul: Yeah. What are you using? Steve Dub: UAD, lots of UAD stuff and then plug-ins I suppose, just whatever is on the revolving conveyor belt at the time, you know. Kevin Paul: And then you did The Orbital. Steve Dub: Yeah I worked a bit with them, so they're next door, that's good fun. Kevin Paul: Yeah, what are they like to work with? Steve Dub: Great. I mean, very obviously loads of analogue synths in their room and it's all very, very analogue. Kevin Paul: Does that take you back to the days of Dada? Steve Dub: It does and it's nice to sort of, you know, work on stuff where there is noise and hiss and grunge and distortion and you know, it's good. That was, again, that was just mixing. Kevin Paul: That's mixing. Steve Dub: Although obviously mixing can entail doing things that, yeah, you know, mixings a big, big thing, isn't it? It can just be literally levels and it can be changing so much depending on how far people want you to go. And I think that's the difficult thing sometimes is you can, you know, you can go mad on a mix and then terrify people, so it's like, what the ? have you done? Kevin Paul: Like what though, can you give me an example? Steve Dub: Well, you know, I suppose you just with saturation and compression and you know, you can completely reinvent someone's drum track if you're not careful. If that's what you feel and obviously if they are aware of what you do then they probably do expect that sometimes and it's always very easy to sort of bring it back. Kevin Paul: Was Moby expecting? Steve Dub: No, to be honest with him, I didn't, it wasn't changed that much. What was interesting with him is that, you know, he was doing lots of things on a sampler where he wasn't quantising stuff, so there'd be loops where there were flams and things, which is cool. Kevin Paul: We had a look at a few of the old Moby stuff when I worked at Mute and a lot of his things were, like you said earlier, where when you put them all together, they all work, but when you separated them out, you were like, that loop doesn't sound like it's in time and then there's flams and loops were out, slightly out, but the sum of the parts produced this incredible track. Steve Dub: And it's got more charm to it as well. Kevin Paul: Oh, a lot more charm. A lot more charm. Steve Dub: And as I think I try and resist that temptation now to sort of tune and quantize everything, right 'cause for so long I would do that, you know, take some drums, put 'em in Recycle or whatever, chop it up, make it tight and then you'd think it was better. But I think oftentimes actually, if you are with an engineer's head focusing on the drum track, but actually most people are listening to the vocal. They don't really care about that weird little hi-hat that you're obsessing about and I think a lot of the time as well, I'd sort of mention it to him if I saw and he'd be like, no man, just make it work. So I'd side chain it or do whatever to duck it and it is just a different aspect of controlling it, I suppose.. Rather than going, well, I must quantize it and sort it out. Kevin Paul: A lot of people get sucked in by that though don't they, a lot of people spend Steve Dub: Especially with a laptop 'cause you can see it and that was the thing with studio, you could, you know, all you could see was faders and meters, you could never actually see the waveform really. Kevin Paul: Do you think that changed the way people made music? Steve Dub: Oh, definitely yeah. And sample libraries, definitely. I mean you know, we always used to have decks set up in the studio and CDJs, but mainly decks and people would be bringing records in and you'd be sampling them. That's if you were making that kind of record, that's what you'd be doing. You'd be finding a kick off something or a snare or a hi-hat loop. Kevin Paul: I remember the time when I worked with Leftfield in the studio actually and for the first two hours of the day, they'd just play music. Steve Dub: And Paul would always have records... Kevin Paul: Full volume, like literally in the studio. He'd have a bag of records every day... Steve Dub: And he'd sample bits of it and they'd always sound brilliant. Kevin Pual: Or you just play records to get into the vibe, you know of, oh we're doing a remix today, what we doing, how are we gonna make it current? Or you know, this is what I, you know, whatever I want it to sound like or this is the place that I wanted to take it. And he'd spend two hours literally just blasting tracks. I'd be thinking yeah, this is a great way to start the day. Steve Dub: It is. I think listening to music's really important, especially in a space you don't know. That's the best way to learn a room is to listen to music you like. Kevin Paul: What sort of stuff do you listen to outside of the studio? Do you listen to any music? Steve Dub: I do yeah, all sorts really. I kind of yeah, it changes all the time. Also depending on who I'm working with, I might try and get a bit of an idea about what they like by listening to music that they like. So quite often if I'm working with someone, I'll ask them to send me a playlist or some examples of tracks they love or even pictures or, you know anything, anything to sort of identify the sort of aesthetic of what they want. I think is really useful in the sort in the shortest time possible 'cause obviously if you've only got two days with someone before you do anything really, it's important to try and understand what they actually want from the process. So I think actually sitting down and talking for three hours and listening to music is a really valid thing to do. Kevin Paul: Yeah, for sure Steve Dub: Even if you've only got 12 hours, if you go into the actual process with much more understanding, you know, you can achieve a lot more in four or five hours than you can in 12 hours just really not knowing what you're trying to do, you know. Obviously right is a, with mixing is a strange term 'cause it's like, I think with most records they could be 50 different mixes that are right or wrong or whatever, you know. I think that's the thing, idiosyncrasies and mixes are often what make them work and when you do sort of do the mix that's really polite and correct, it's just like, it's a bit boring now, whereas the one where the vocals doing something a bit weird or a bit mad or the bass drums too quiet. I dunno. You know, just all those things that people talk about in classic mixes, like Heroes or something where it wasn't until they turned the kick down 10dbs I think it was that the mix came together. I think all those things are still very valid today. Sure. When you mix in, how do you start navigating your way through the mix? Steve Dub: I guess it depends how technically I sort of was involved in a recording, so with... Kevin Paul: Let's say you've not been involved in the recording at all. Steve Dub: Okay so yeah, some tracks where I just get, you know, 180 stems sent to me, first thing I'll do is sit there, swear and try and reduce it down to a manageable amount of tracks 'cause I just, I can't deal with that many tracks in my head and I can't physically listen to it all if I've got a day or two, you know, dealing with 180 tracks is just insane. Generally things like backing vocals, if they're across 18 tracks, you know, I'll commit to a stereo pair and I'll keep the session where I bounced 'em from, so I can go back and easily adjust it. But I know that on my screen I've got, the backing vocals are printed and quite often same with drums. If I've got compression going on that I like and stuff, I'll commit to it. Kevin Paul: So you do a lot of that old school... Steve Dub: Sounds bad to me. Kevin Paul: You don't need to run everything live. You're not running everything live. Steve Dub: Try not to. I mean I do obviously a bit by the end but I do for some reason as well, the maths seems to work better on the computer when you've committed, I don't know why. So if I'm printing the drums as a stem, you know, that'll be going through maybe the stereo bus. There might not even be anything on it, but just the fact it's printed, I dunno why. Seems to give it a bit more sort of width and depth and a bit more 3Dness running it from stems as opposed to all live. Kevin Paul: What program do you use? Steve Dub: It's Logic but I found it in all, well, I find it in all of them, yeah. Kevin Paul: And do you monitor loudly because obviously dance music or electronic music? Steve Dub: I do. Kevin Paul: Yeah and, and are you constantly loud or are you... Steve Dub: No sort of short, sharp bursts, so I'm sure most people that maybe disagree and say it's loud all the time but yeah, initially if I'm sort of working on a track and you need to get that initial sort of response to it, I'll have it quite loud and try and get excited by it and then when I'm sort of doing more technical stuff later on, like you know, revisions of levels and tweaks and stuff, I probably wouldn't be blasting it. Kevin Paul: So you just sort keep it fairly sensible. Steve Dub: Yeah. I mean obviously, you know, in here I've got SM9s so they're kind of loud, but they're not ridiculous as opposed to, you know, when you go in big studios with big soffit mounted wall speakers. Kevin Paul: Yeah but there's something quite nice about this. Steve Dub: There is, yeah. Kevin Paul: You know, these speakers at Konk, they're amazing. Steve Dub: They're amazing, yeah. You know I'm forever blowing up NS10s. So at Tom's studio there is literally a, there's a really long curtain rail above a door and there's about 24 NS10 cones on there. Kevin Paul: What the bottom end, the woofers, wow. Steve Dub: Well you know, that is over about 20 years, to be fair but they, you know, they tend to, I suppose they just tend to go 'cause they're paper and they're not that tough, speakers like this are fine. Kevin Paul: Side chaining, do you use it? Steve Dub: Yeah. Kevin Paul: What do you use it for, what do you use it on? Steve Dub: Loads of things. Kevin Paul: Can you give me something. Steve Dub: Do you mean analogue or in the computer? Kevin Paul: Whatever. Mixing, Bass. Steve Dub: Yep, bass definitely, mix, yeah. All the time on bass now, particularly with, there's a really good little plug-in called, what's it called, I'll tell you in a minute, but that sidechains and allows you to sort of just sidechain whatever frequency selection you want, so it's got a hi pass and a low pass and then amount, and you can literally just take out everything below 40hertz on the bass when the kick hits. So I find that kind of sidechaining quite useful, where you can't really hear it but you can definitely feel that it makes a difference. Kevin Paul: Yeah, so it gives you a bit more space in the mix. Steve Dub: Gives you much more space and on vocals and guitars and synths and stuff, it's something like Soothe is quite, although that's not side chaining, but it's a multi-band sort of... Kevin Paul: That's that new... Steve Dub: Yeah, it's quite good. Kevin Paul: Is that the blue one? Steve Dub: Yeah, it's good. It seems to do this sort of thing where you don't lose all the sort of presence, but it definitely calms it down a bit if it's a bit gnarly. Kevin Paul: What, the vocals? Steve Dub: Vocals or groups of synths and stuff, or guitars. Yeah. Particularly sort of mid range stuff. But definitely yeah, sidechaining, but more just certain frequencies rather than everything, so you're not really aware of it. Kevin Paul: Okay, so you're not compressing the whole mix from the kick. Steve Dub: Sometimes. Obviously depends if that's what yeah, feels right. I think there's two different ways of doing it, you can either do it sort of with frequencies, so you're either sort of shaping sounds to work together where you don't use sidechain as much or as sort of, production's changed now where I find people have got a kick with a huge sub and a huge sub bass as well and you've gotta make 'em fit together. That kind of side chaining works really well for that, so although you're not really hearing it, it's definitely creating space in the low end for them to fit together. Kevin Paul: How do you approach compression? Steve Dub: Again just what feels right, no set approach. Depends where I am as well. If I'm in a room where there's URIs and things like that, then obviously they're lovely to use and they send the vocal down a really good path anyway sound wise, just plugging one of those in and doing a little bit of tweaking on it, it's already in a really good place. But I do find that some of the plug-in emulations are getting pretty good now on that. Kevin Paul: Like any particular favorites? Steve Dub: Yeah the UAD one, the new Arturia ones on the URIs and stuff, they're pretty good. I mean, obviously I think most of 'em are like getting there, there's none of them yet where you go yeah, that's absolutely nailed it. That's what I say is if you sort of add a bit more saturation or something into the chain, generally you can get pretty close. It's funny you know, I think with within the box mixing, it's definitely a slightly different approach to mixing the record than if it's on a desk. Kevin Paul: In what way? Steve Dub: Just in terms of how the sounds work together. I think they're a lot more edge to them in the digital domain whereas within like an SSL for instance you know, you're already going through transformers and there's saturation happening even if it's just going through the channel, so it's already, whereas you know, you put it up on your computer and it's just, it's the raw signal, nothing, you know, nothing's happening to it unless you do something. Whereas I think within the desk, just the process of monitoring and having it going through the desk and the mixbus and yeah, it does magic stuff anyway. Kevin Paul: You don't like, when you're mixing in the box, you don't like put a SSL channel on each track to give it a flavour. Steve Dub: I do but I don't do it as a default, I sort of try and do it as I go. Kevin Paul: Dial it in. Steve Dub: Dial it in and go right, ou know, 'cause I think yeah, sometimes as well people, there are certain sounds where they don't really want you to change them much and then there are certain sounds where they do and it's, I think it's just finding room to maneuver around those things really. Kevin Paul: The process of deciding what to do is... Steve Dub: That's the really important part of it. I think working out what you wanna do is as important as doing it. Kevin Paul: Do you have a vision when you, obviously you listen to a track? Steve Dub: Sometimes, but no sometimes if you turn up and you listen to a track that's the whole thing, you are trying to sort of understand a track and enjoy it within that timeframe you have of mixing it. Because obviously if you just approach a mix in a technical way it's not really what you are being asked to do as a mix, you are sort of being asked to interpret it through your ears in a creative way that you think sounds good to your taste and hopefully they share that opinion. So you might stick loads of delay on the vocal because you think it sounds cool for no other reason really, other than you go I like that. Because it is, it's all playing really. Kevin Paul: And then you eventually settle with something that you like and you manipulate that as far as you can, or... Steve Dub: Yeah most often, like times you do something like that and then you send it to the client or the artist and they're like, yeah I really like that, but can you... Kevin Paul: Dial it back a bit. Steve Dub: Dial it back, that's always the thing yeah, what, you know, or if you've gone mad with a drum set because it's great, but can you just back it off so it's, yeah, it's very often that process Kevin Paul: Where are you more comfortable in the studio? Are you more comfortable just doing mixing on your own or do you like that collaboration like you do with the Chemicals? Steve Dub: I like working with people in the room. I don't mind either. It depends on my sort of mindset, I suppose sometimes. And some tracks you know you, some tracks you're working on for days, like there are some tracks where I spend days on them and there are other tracks where you get it in seven or eight hours, you know, so I think when you are like two or three days into a mix it's quite often quite useful to have the ears of someone else there, whereas if you've done it quite quickly and the response is immediate, you've sent it off to someone that night and emailed it to them and they're like oh I love it, you're like great, you know and that, it's just that thing of like drawing under a line under it and going right, well that's now finished. Yeah. Like we said, there's a problem with that open-endedness of the laptop or the computer. Steve Dub: I hate that, I hate that, you know, I like for me, I like having limited resources on making a record, not tons of equipment. I dunno how Tom copes in his studio, he's got so much gear and for him it works brilliantly but I just dunno how he manages to sort of tune his thought process down to getting it finished. Kevin Pual: What's your favourite piece of equipment in the studio? Steve Dub: Easy. AMS-1580s or DMX. Kevin Paul: Oh brilliant, yeah, the AMS-1580, yeah. Steve Dub: By about a thousand percent. Kevin Paul: Why? Steve Dub: Just 'cause it's a box that I've used... Kevin Paul: From day one. Steve Dub: From day one, and it's always amazed me what it does. Like it's still, I've just been working with someone called Sasha and that we, you know, we got actually borrowed one from Tom and that box is a big part of what we were doing. Kevin Paul: Can you explain that, what the vocal sound or... Steve Dub: Just taking, just anything... Kevin Paul: Drums or... Steve Dub: Everything will sound brilliant through it 'cause it's got, you know, it's got old converters, very early days converters, but they sound amazing. So even just running stuff through it or you know, taking samples 'cause it's a harmonizer you can go and octave up and an octave down sticking some strings through it an octave down and I mean and it's just like, it just sounds awesome man, it's got an LFO on it so you can do like weird stereo chorus and sort of undulating kinda weird wobbly delays. Kevin Paul: They've never managed to make one in the digital domain, have they? Steve Dub: They haven't. They've done the RMX. No-one's done that and it yeah, it's such a clunky, weird old box with so many idiosyncrasies that I'm not sure they could, you know and it, you know, also does like a load of like earlier reflection stuff and stereo widening stuff that just sounds brilliant. Kevin Paul: Yeah my one used to do the plus minus. Steve Dub: I remember that on every mix, you know you'd, on the vocal guitars, keyboards, you know, anything that you wanted a bit wider and still now if I sort of, I still kind of emulate it within logic with other plugins 'cause, just 'cause it does that thing of like, if you've got something in a mix where you kind of want to hear it more but you don't necessarily want it to be louder, stick it through something like that and it just I dunno, it takes it out to the edges a bit and probably adding a bit of saturation and colouration and it just yeah, sticks out the mix a bit more. Same with saturation, that seems to play a huge part in that as well, I find. Kevin Paul: Yeah sure, I like saturation. Steve Dub: Things like snares and stuff. Kevin Paul: I sometimes use it more than a compression though. Steve Dub: Definitely yeah. But I think it's something back in the day that was happening and we didn't even realise the pressure of going through the Neve onto tape, back off tape, through the SSL. There was a certain amount of colouration or saturation happening without you... Kevin Paul: Even being aware of it. Steve Dub: No. Kevin Paul: In those days they weren't worried about levels too much in the 70s and and stuff. Maybe the 80s onwards people got technical, things driving and you know. Steve Dub: Definitely, I mean I, you know, I remember a lot of people just, you're never really having separate preamps or yeah, like it was the, you were using the desk so if you were recording vocals or drums, you were recording through the desk whatever that desk was, if it was an SSL or a Neve if you're lucky enough or a Mackie or, and I never ever felt I can't do this vocal 'cause I've got a Mackie to record it through. Kevin Paul: Yeah, that's right. Steve Dub: You just say no, that's what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna record and you go, that's great yeah. And then you even end up mixing the record on a really good desk and you say oh yeah, we recorded that through a Mackie preamp, that vocal. Kevin Paul: Yeah, it sounded decent. Steve Dub: It sounded fine, I mean I just think that's.. Kevin Paul: Well Eastcote used to have the Mackie didn't they, Eastcote Studios used to have a Mackie desk in there and loads of people made amazing records on that. Steve Dub: Yeah. I think it's a very much a bit of a current myth is that you need like loads of bespoke, expensive preamps to make a decent recording, it's more about the room and what's happening in the room for me. Kevin Paul: Yeah, sure. Steve Dub: I, you know, I even, I work with a guy called Ali Love and he brings me vocals all the time that he's recorded at four in the morning on his laptop and they sound... Kevin Paul: What, with his microphone? Steve Dub: No, just on the laptop mic. Kevin Paul: Just on the laptop mic. Steve Dub: Yeah. Kevin Pual Yeah, brilliant. Steve Dub: And it's an amazing performance. Kevin Paul: And that's what it's all about. Steve Dub: Yeah and you can always make it work generally you know, that idea of right, go and do that in a booth with some headphones and expecting it to come anywhere close, it really generally doesn't. Kevin Paul: Yeah, it's so true. What things do you try to avoid in the studio? Steve Dub: Ooh, I guess pontification too much and dwelling on the same idea too long sometimes. If you're sort of het up with the vocal effect, sometimes actually mixing the drums so they sound good, means you then approach everything else in a different way. So I suppose finding where the energy of the track is coming from. Kevin Paul: How do you find where the energy of the track is coming from? Steve Dub: Well I guess like me I, you know, I suppose I work in a certain genre of electronic kind of club music, so generally it's drums and groove driven, so I guess my focus would normally start with that. And very often with the Chems we're trying to make the track sound as good as we can as a sort of instrumental record and then we put all the vocals on, the samples on afterwards, make sure it works really well as an instrumental track first. And also that thing of trying to make a mix that's gonna sound good on a laptop, a pair of speakers and you know, on a massive PA at Glastonbury or something. Kevin Paul: Do they take it out to the clubs a lot? Steve Dub: Yeah, they always road test stuff and that's, working with someone that does that is really, really useful. So like working on a mix, someone going off playing in Italy that night and then texting you about going out, sounds great, a couple of tweaks, yeah. Kevin Paul: Turn the bass up. Steve Dub: Yeah. I guess just sort of finding that point where you think it should sort of work from the track, whether it's the drums or the bass or, it's enjoying listening to the track I think, so like trying to work on things that you like is I think, is a really important part of it. Kevin Paul: Yeah, have you tried to avoid not working on things you like or don't like, sorry. Steve Dub: Yeah, wherever possible. I think from early days in Konk I used to sit there assisting, I just remember thinking, oh I'm really enjoying working on this track and in other tracks where you weren't so into the vibe, it would seem like a really long day, you know? Like that, I need to not work on this pop music if I'm gonna sort of do this as a career, or whatever track you know, whatever it was you weren't enjoying about the thing. Kevin Paul: Well, you've managed to do that pretty well haven't you, over the last 30 odd years. Steve Dub: Well sometimes yeah, sometimes you get it right, yeah. It's like, but it's all just playing for me. Kevin Paul: Even today? Steve Dub: Yeah. Still feel like I'm just mucking about and that's why I think sometimes in a more social situation, it's almost like you're showing, not showing up, but like you know, playing with your mates, it's like, I dunno. Kevin Paul: Yeah, of course, it's having fun. Steve Dub: Having a laugh, like wow, you know and someone like Tom and Ed, you know, they're buying lots of interesting old equipment and there's lots of old gear coming through the studio, so get some like mad, I dunno, something, last thing he bought that was mental was this grampian like amp, sort of echo, amp spring reverb thing, it just sounds mental, like it's got amazing distortion sort of saturation. So you just, quite often we'll set something like that up and if we're working on an album, they'll be like 8 tracks or 10 tracks on the go, I'll be like all right, let's put those drums through that and see what that sounds like and then record it anyway... Kevin Paul: And then further down the line you start to weed out... Steve Dub: Yeah because Tom does so many arrangements on things, you know, he'll often have about 12, 14 arrangements on the go on a track, on one screen. So he's got like a one song that's about 3000 bars long with an arrangement, arrangement, arrangement and he can grab sections from any arrangement. It's really interesting yeah, rather than going right I've done an arrangement and then tweaking that, he'll do an arrangement and then do another, another, they'll be all completely different versions with different sections and they'll both live with them. That's very much a part of it. Ed has a slightly more peripheral view I think because he's very involved but not such a technician as Tom and he's able to sort of have that periphery, I think, which is really important. So he'll go oh no, I really like that version and just, it's good that, I think that's important within those situations that if everyone's trying to get on a computer and stuff, it just gets too bogged down in technical sort of drudgery. Kevin Paul: Yeah, for sure. Steve Dub: And it doesn't, whereas if somebody's actually sitting there enjoying a track, it's a really valid viewpoint to listen to 'cause they're... Kevin Paul: Well that's the old school producer, isn't it? Steve Dub: Yeah. Kevin Paul: The guy sitting on the sofa... Steve Dub: Who doesn't necessarily do stuff that's technical, but he's just coercing the room. Kevin Paul: Guiding the environment yeah. Steve Dub: And that's a big part of it. Like I think learning that sometimes it's not what you do technically that sort of validates what you do, it's just how you sort of act and deal with the people in the room and get the situation out of it and yeah again, just talking and discussing ideas and yeah, I think that can, especially with bands, that can have a massive effect on how the record sounds. If somebody's sort of heard a song with a band and they've got a vision on it and they can iterate that through sort of discussions and stuff. You hear about so many sort of classic records that started out as one thing and became something else. Kevin Paul: Yeah, of course. Steve Dub: Just because the producer went well, why don't you do a reggae version of this or it's a reggae track, can we do it like a new wave, pop track? And that sort of ends up defining what the record is. Kevin Paul: Yeah and lo and behold it's the great idea that sort of materialises. Steve Dub: Yeah and it's, I think it's I suppose as well, it's being in a position as well where you can actually carry that forwards because obviously everybody, whether you're an assistant or a producer or anywhere in between when you are sitting in a room listening to music, you have a response to it in your brain which I suppose, whatever it is, a vision or an idea or, and that's, I think that's the key to it really, is if you hear something and you can hear a way of doing it that's exactly what it's about really. Whereas if you're listening to something and going well, I don't really feel anything and you don't have a response, then it's pointless, but you're hearing a piece of music and you're excited by it and you can hear it doing something... Kevin Paul: That's what it's all about. Steve Dub: Yeah. Some of those more extreme like Chemical Brothers sort of grooves like Under The Influence or It Doesn't Matter or stuff, you know, they definitely come about through being in a room with a big set of speakers and turning up and kind of seeing what you can do to the bass drum you know, where can you take that one sound and you end up with it across seven tracks going through distortions, amps, compressors, six different EQs. Kevin Paul: Are you quite radical with your movements in that situation, or is it, are you very slowly adjusting stuff or you being quite brutal and just going bosh bosh. Steve Dub: Quite brutal. Kevin Paul: And you know, seeing where it goes. Steve Dub: Big sort of brush strokes at first. Kevin Paul: Yeah big brush strokes Steve Dub: And then once you've got something that everyone's agreeing they're enjoying, then you go down to sort of more detailed approach. Kevin Paul: So finessing it down and really shaping it after that. Steve Dub: But sometimes the records like that, the more you know you get the sort of mad mix that's a bit naughty and then once you refine it, you're like actually... Kevin Paul: It's lost all that, it goes back to that thing we said at the start where the stereo out sounds better than the the split up. Steve Dub: Or when the vocal's too loud or panned hard left, you're like well it just sounds cool like that, yeah. Not like, moving beyond what's technically correct sometimes which I think is quite, as you say, you were saying earlier like if things are distorting, like can you hear it distorting? If you can't, does it sound okay? Kevin Paul: And even if you can hear it distorting, is that what you like about it? Steve Dub: But in an unpleasant way you know,. Kevin Paul: Well unpleasant is wrong, but pleasant is always nice if it's working. Steve Dub: And equally some people do things that, you know, somebody in the room might go I'm not sure that's right but then you hear it and you're like in the context and you go yeah, actually that works really well whatever you did there. Can't think of an example off hand but you know, there's definitely lots of records I think where people were, just through boredom as well, trying to find almost trying to sort of wake themselves up with a sort of foolish, crazy idea and then you do it and you're like wow, that's really cool. I mean the outcome of it, the magic of it, sometimes you don't need to overanalyse it. Kevin Paul: You shouldn't, should you, you don't need to overanalyse it. Steve Dub: I work with a guy called Erol Alkan sometimes and he's very much into that, the outcoming of it, just like I dunno why it sounds cool, but don't even analyse it, just do it, just go move forwards with it, you know, it's you know, you have a creative urge and you just, it's like a response to that and trying to make things exciting to you. For me that's the essence of what a mix is, is trying to make it exciting and then you know, I do that thing quite often of switching between, you always sort of reference the reference or the demo mix or the other mix or whatever and always hope that you're, yeah it's different, it's weird, isn't it? It's a really weird thing to say it's better 'cause it's just different but obviously there are classic things I suppose that people would perceive as better, like more definition or more width on things or clarity, but then sometimes actually the version where the vocal is murky and a bit weird is, so I think it's quite good to be mindful of that as well. Kevin Paul: Yeah, sure. Steve Dub: Definitely with a demo mix or a reference mix that people have lived with for four months Kevin Paul: That's always gonna play a part isn't it, on the perception of what you do and that new idea. Steve Dub: Definitely, just not listening to that, it seems madness to me 'cause somebody spent... Kevin Paul: Four months creating it. Steve Dub: Yeah, someone like Ali, you know, he'll send you a reference mix that will have very, very precise sort of vocal balances and he'll, you know, he's someone that does lots and lots and lots of harmonies and tracking and stuff and he's definitely got a like very clear idea of where they sit and how they work. So obviously apart from, you know, a bit of EQ and reverb, whatever you do to them, but that, you know, try and retain that balance. Kevin Paul: Yeah, if you step out of that, they, they instantly go no, you need to listen to the reference mix. Steve Dub: So I even do that with mixes now, I might try and make the drum sound better, that's why I like doing it as sort of more object base so I'll have my drums my, you know, my 10 stems at the end and then I'll go back to the reference mix and sort of definitely reference that balance even if the keyboards have got a load of chorus on them and they're brighter still trying to sort of balance them within the same space as they were within that reference mix as much as possible. Kevin Paul: Steve, thank you so much for coming. Steve Dub: Nice one, nice to talk to you. Kevin Paul: Great to see you again. Thanks very much. Steve Dub: You're welcome. Kevin Paul: Thank-you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode where you'll find further information along with web links and details of all our other episodes. And just before you go, let me point you to the soundonsound.com/podcasts website page where you can explore what's playing on our other channels. This has been a MixBus production by me, Kevin Paul, for Sound On Sound.