Kevin Paul: Welcome to the Sound On Sound People and Music Industry podcast channel with me, Kevin Paul. In this episode, I talk to Dimitri Tikovoï. He's a producer and a songwriter based in London. Dimitri shares with me how he approaches making records from the beginning when setting limitations has its advantages. Dimitri, thank-you so much for your time and I hope you enjoyed the episode. Hi. Sure. How are you? I'm very good. Thank you. Yeah. When you are producing your own works or writing, do you have a, a fairly good idea initially of how you want that song or album to go down? I tend to think about it before I started. Okay. So I, most albums that I do, I try. To really come up with a concept of how we gonna do it before we do it. Sure. And things change. Yeah, of course. But, and I, there is two things for me. There is the songs, which at the end of the day is always going to be the most important thing. Yeah. But the sonic of it is, is quite crucial to the way. The artist and also the, the, the fans or the, the, the people that listen to it will respond. And I think the sonics are equally important. I try, when I record an album, I try to start with limitations. This is for me a good way to start an album. Kevin Paul: In what way? Can you give me the example? So I would say like if we are going to do the drums with two microphones, there are or no cymbals or you know, or we, I try to start something. Yeah, that's got limitation. No chords on the guitar. Just try to start with a point of where people have to challenge themself a little bit. It doesn't work for everything, but yeah, it's a good idea too. Fine. And that's and I'm not putting the limitation on people to limit them. I'm putting the limitation on people to excite them. Yeah. So usually I try to find something that's gonna go, you know, say, oh, we gonna go record the drums in church and because all the demo. Have loads of rhythms and drums, and they're gonna go like, wha Yeah. Or in a, in a tunnel or whatever it is, you know? Or we're gonna replace all the symbols with, I don't know, with chains or whatever it is, or decide that we are not gonna quantize anything or not gonna use any sound symbols. Make some decisions and have a long conversation with the band before we start. Do a few playlists of things that we like or things that we, we, you know, I think it's the, the pre-production is for me is really important. Yeah, it sounds like it. Yeah. Sounds, and you're not, you're not the only person to say that. A lot of the people I've spoken to in this series have all said it's basically at the pre-production. Yeah. That's where. Those ideas and that direction is formed. Yeah. And that relationship between you, the band and the music, that's where it's kind of born. Yeah. How do you though, if, let's say you're working with a, with an unsigned artist? Yeah. You might have in some ways, a lot more scope because no one's ever heard anything from them. That's, uh, that's it. It's actually quite tricky with new artists because benefit of experience is also a problem because you can adventure in different genres Yeah. Of music. Yeah. And therefore you're not, you don't have the limitation, which I was talking earlier. Yeah. Therefore, it's kind of, where do I go? You know, you, you, if the artist doesn't have already a little bit of an a, a sound, then you start thinking, okay, what would I want to hear from you? And then, so that's the way I'm started thinking when I work with new people. It's like, if I was. If I was the public, what would I want to hear you sing? Sure. And then I take it, and then I start from there. And then I try to make, you know, songs or music that goes into what I would want that person to sound like. And then after that, at least it gives me a starting point. And do you do that on your own or are you always do, do you sort of have a talk with the band and then come in the studio and go, okay, I'm gonna try these ideas and present them to the band? It, it depends because those two different type of people I'm working generally without categorizing Yeah. Is a bands or solo artists. Yeah. A lot of the pop artists you have. It's quite weird working with properties because usually you do a one or two day session with them and it's a writing session. Yeah. So you have to be really quick and you. You have a discussion at, at the, when they arrive, you go for coffee, you have a chat, and then here you go. And then you straight in, straight in and you have to have a song finished and produced by the end of the day. So it's, and I quite like working like that. Um, the danger of it is to sound a little bit generic, but you know, at the same time. It's kind of the way, that's why a lot of people, a lot of pop music is quite generic, is because people don't have time to develop their sound. Yeah, sure. And they work with a lot of people. Yeah. So you can end up, you know, it's, it's not difficult. To write a song in, in one day. It's once you get the hang of it, what's difficult is to find something that's got personality, personality and character in one day. Um, with bands, it's a different approach because I am, I've, I'm actually. Using them as a, as a, it's, it's an exchange, you know? Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm giving them something and I want them to giving me something back. Sure. And I'm feeding from what they're giving me, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm helping them with what I've learned in order to try to push them further. You came to London and you ended up working with Flood Yeah. For a long time. Where, where did you go from there? Um, well actually after we, we did a lot of stuff together because after, after, after he started using me as his musician, programmer person, yeah, I, I started producing stuff. One of my first big break was placebo. Yeah. Uh, which I produced. And so I asked Flood to mix it because he was my mentor. So after that we kind of went back and forth where he was asking me to do things for him and I was asking him to do things for me. So how did that feel like you, you'd come from that kind of. Place of looking up and you work ended up working alongside him. It was great. You never, for me, I don't, it's not really com really a competition music, and I think I've learned a lot from him and I still don't know what he does. Yeah. You know, I know exactly what you mean. I've taken a lot of things that he was doing and applied it to what I'm doing. But what Flood does is what Flood does. Yeah. It's like I've, I've worked with other people and I think everybody developed their own personal skills in different ways. So, you know, I could watch what you do today. I could go home and replicate that. But it won't sound the way you make it sound. No, but it'll just sound the way I think it should sound. Yeah. And sometimes it's useful to, to see how someone does something, but it doesn't work for you. Yeah. You know, it's kind of, I've seen people, you know, making things in diff in some, some ways, and it's, it works great for that session that they're doing, and each time I'm doing it, it doesn't work for me. So it's kind of, or even, you know. There's, uh, there's a lot of different angles to things, so I'm, I've, it's funny. I keep trying to learn and to push myself. It's so, I, I, I understood with working with Flood a lot about the psychology of music, how to interact with artists, how to mic things and record them in a way that was really important for me. I, I looked at him how he was mixing, and there was. There is an element of the way flood mixes stuff that's, it's a bit voodoo. I don't It's a bit voodoo. Yeah. I think he's like, he's just like, he's doing some random thing that nobody else does. And I like, I remember one day. I was sitting in the room and flood is on portals, and, and I, I was pretty good on portals at that point, and flood is really slow on portals and I was watching him and it was so tedious. It's like he was doing something and I was like, I was behind him. I was like. Just let me do it. And then I'm, I'm bored, and I'm like, okay. And then 45 minutes later he plays something and I'm like, what just happened? Yeah. Yeah. It's, I don't know. I've, I've been there. I don't know what you did. And I don't know how he got about it because it looks ridiculous, whatever I was doing. Yeah. But it sounded amazing. Yeah. With did. And I was like, how did that happen? Anyway, so after, after that, I mean, for me, the, the, the thing I've really wanted to learn was understand the next step, which was mixing. So I've watched loads and loads of video. Online of mixing engineer and how to mix and stuff like that. I get to a point where I said, okay, I start to, to get it. The problem about when you learn something new, you, you, you tend to apply a technique and not use your ears necessarily. Yeah. So it's kind of bit of back and forth. And what was really interesting is about, what was it two months ago? I did a mix for a project I produced called Trusses that isn't out yet. I produced the track, cobot it, mixed it, and I was really happy with the mix. And, um, the whole album, the, the Alan mixed the whole album. So they said, do you mind giving? Your truck to Allen. I was like, yeah, sure. Because I was like, my mix is pretty good. I want to see if we can beat that. And then he started to mix back and I was like, first mix is sand. I was like, there is not even any tweak. I was like. Oh, you bastard. This is why you are Alan Mulder. You know, it's just like, it's like I listened to, I listened to a lot of en, a lot of mixed engineer stuff. I, you know, and you are constantly going, how the hell do they get that width? How do they get that depth? How do they get that? And I was like, you, you're struggling for ages in the box. Yeah. Is it more of this? What about that? What was really frustrating, well, and interesting is the fact that it was exactly the same as what I did. It sounded better. Yeah. It just, it didn't change the balance or the feeling of the truck or anything like that. It's just, it was better. Yeah. So, and that makes me, that's, that's good for me because it makes me want to keep learning. Yeah, sure. I'm like. Okay, so there is more to learn. I'm not, I'm not there yet. Are, are you mixing in the box? Yeah. I tend to mix in the box. Yeah. But are you comfortable with that? Yeah, I, I mean this is kind of. I try to find my way of doing things. So, you know, for me, the box works quite well. Well, you have to find your way, don't you? It's, you know, as we said it, you know, the, the idea isn't to copy people. The idea is to apply what you've seen and make it your own. Yeah. I, I think at some point I'm about a, a, the samuni cultures, the, the, what is it called? Um, the Fat buster, fat buster thing. The mixer. The summing Messer. Yeah, the summing. And I, I used it for a year and a half and it just didn't work for me. I, I preferred the sound in the box, just straight outta the box. Yeah. It just dunno, it's, you know, everyone have their own thing. Yeah, of course. Yeah. There's no right way though. Is there? There's no, I think a lot of people who are starting out or, um, maybe listening to this thinking, how do you make yourself sound like Flood or Dmitri or Adam Mold or Dave Bascom or whoever. Yeah. You know? You've really got to just develop your sound. It's just, I think it's the, the way everyone's brain is wired differently. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So you're looking for different things. You know the reason, that's why you get to the point where you get to, you know, yeah. After that, what's in between is, is what you've learned, and it's such a tricky thing. Music, because it's a connection, it's, it's an emotional connection with something. But what I find really hard for me is when people send me demos and I listen to the demo and I'm like, this is really good and I don't know how to make it better. Because even if it sounds sonically, sonically, yeah. The demo emotionally so good. Yeah. How am I gonna do that? How am I going to make that? I understand that. It connects with me a hundred percent. Yeah. But you can't put it out because I understand that for people that are, don't have the EA training, et cetera, et cetera, it's the need. They need to be presented in a better way so they can hear it. Yeah. And this is our job as producer, mixing, engineer, engineer all of this. Yeah, sure. Of course. That's exactly the job. So. Sometime I'm like, how do I do that? I can, I can make it sound better or I can make it more in tune. I clean, clean it up. But that feeling that you've got on the demo, how do I keep it? Uh, or make it better if possible, while doing all this other thing. And that can be really hard. Do you have a favorite piece of equipment that you use in the studio all the time? Or do you have something that you do every time you make a record or a lot of the time that, that without it, you feel lost or you feel like it's not you? Do you have something like that that you do? I think interaction with the artists is, is quite the most important thing. Yeah, sure. Most important. The brain. I, I'm gonna say the brain is the most important piece of equipment in the studio. Brilliant. The last section is called Dither and Delay. This is about basically things you try to avoid when you're making records or writing or mixing. Hmm, that's a good question. I quite open to, uh. Anything. So I don't try to avoid anything. I quite like when I disagree with people because I like a challenge, I like, I like people that are difficult because I think usually, well it's not true, but it. I, I think that at the ex age I'm that, and with what I've learned, this is on me to try to grab something from it. If you manage to get something from someone that's difficult, then you might be onto a winner. You. How, how do you, this is, this is quite an interesting thing. How do you, when you are first starting your career and you meet someone who's difficult I can, I've got a story about that. Well, well, the first big gig I got was with placebo. I did a few B sides for them before. Um, I did running up that hill at that point and they asked me to produce meds. Yeah. And we go in the studio and they wanted to get me in because, you know, so far it's been really easy working with me. I was doing lots of programming and like I said in my head. I had thought long and hard about the album that I wanted them to make, but I did this, didn't discuss it with them, and I thought, at this stage in their career, I think they should go back to making something that's got a bit a. More realness and that's good. Bit darker with real instrument. Then playing it, hearing the, hearing their, their feeling. You know, the thing that I always liked about Brian was Yeah, when he sing that it's believable. Yeah. So I didn't want to polish it. I wanted to do the opposite. I wanted to get the raw side out of him, you know, the, the emotion. So, so the first thing we did, we were. And, um, O Olympic, I can't remember where we were. And first song started playing. It sounded good. And then I said, can we try a different key? I said, why? I said, just want to try it. They, well, it works in that key. I said, yeah, but I want to try it. So fine. And then I made, and I said, can we try do another key? And it's like. Why are we trying another key? I just want to see where the motion is different in, into that other key. Anyway, it kind of escalated. And then he left. After 15 minutes, he had enough and he left the studio and everybody looked at each other and I was like, okay, I have lost the job in 15 minutes. And he called me about 45 minutes later. I said, I'm in the pub, around the corner. Come and meet me. And so I come and meet with him and he said. What are you doing? We got you. Because we thought, you know, we were friends. It was gonna be easy. I said, yeah, and, but I want the album to be good and I'm trying to, uh, to make sure it's good. I want to. Challenge you. I want to experiment a little bit. I'm trying different keys because I want to see where the immersion stands, and he understood what I was trying to do. Yeah, it's just I hadn't explained it to him before. Okay. And he said, okay. Fine. We'll just try it. Yeah. And if it works, it works. If it doesn't, we'll agree that it doesn't work. And that was, and then the from there on the whole album was Let's try it. Wow. But, um, it was a good lesson for me because I didn't communicate that before I started because I was so nervous. Right. But it was also a good lesson because I didn't let go and you didn't let go. I didn't let go. Ah, okay. Because that's, that's quite important in the studio, isn't it? I think it's knowing where to let go. Yeah. I didn't let go because I believe I didn't want to do an average placebo album. I didn't want to do the guy to be the guy. They've already done some great music. I didn't want to be. Doing something average. I wanted to do something exceptional, so I was pushing to try to see, you know, I was green and I was pushing to try to see where I could get anything. From them that someone else didn't get. So for me, experimenting was gonna be a big part of it. And we did experiment. Yeah, we tried loads of weird things, but it still sounds organic. It doesn't sound of produce to me. And there is some moments in there, which I think are still some of my favorite stuff that I've done. Brilliant. Um, so yeah, so that answered the when to let go Yeah. And when not to let go. And, you know, the relationship with artists now, I deal with it differently. I try, I try, I try to discuss, to, to have the discussion before. I think I try to avoid having full on, blown out argument because I don't think it's mature. I think it's, I know better. But I think discussion is important. Dimitri, it's been absolutely fantastic talking with you. I have to say, I'm, I've totally enjoyed this morning. Um, my pleasure. It's been great to catch up with you. Thank you very much for coming to Mbus. No problem. Thank you for listening. And be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode where you'll find further information along with web links and details of. All our other episodes, and just before you go, let me point you to the Sound on Sound slash podcasts website page where you can explore what's playing on our other channels. This has been a mixed bus production by me, Kevin Paul, for sound on sound.