1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,480 Welcome to the Hot Dish, comfort food for rural America. I'm Heidi 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,200 Heitkamp. And I'm Joel Heitkamp. You know, we're real happy today to have 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,720 Tom Nichols with us. He is going to join us here on the 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,440 podcast. A staff writer for the Atlantic and a contributor to the 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,120 Atlantic Daily Newsletter. He writes about international 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,040 security, nuclear weapons, Russia, and the 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,880 challenges to democracy in the United States and around the world. 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,720 He's a professor emeritus of national 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,480 security affairs in the US Navy War College, 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,640 where he taught for 25 years. He served as a legislative aide 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,800 in the Massachusetts House and in the U.S. 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,560 Senate. Now, I want to make sure you know this. His books include 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,590 the "Death of Expertise" and "Our Own Worst Enemy: 14 00:00:54,590 --> 00:00:58,150 the Assault from within on Modern Democracy." Tom, 15 00:00:58,150 --> 00:01:01,310 good to have you with us here on the Hot Dish. 16 00:01:02,190 --> 00:01:05,950 Yeah, thanks for having me. Good to be with you. And I read your 17 00:01:05,950 --> 00:01:09,470 stuff all the time and find it incredibly enlightening. And I 18 00:01:09,550 --> 00:01:12,910 think back to, you know, 10 years ago, 19 00:01:13,630 --> 00:01:17,390 13 years ago, I would read your stuff and you would make me so 20 00:01:17,470 --> 00:01:20,990 mad. You know, you would be saying stuff, I mean, always 21 00:01:20,990 --> 00:01:24,510 with an articulation that was readable, 22 00:01:24,590 --> 00:01:28,230 that had a point of view, but it's not something I would have agreed 23 00:01:28,230 --> 00:01:31,950 on. I don't get how you're now one of the public 24 00:01:31,950 --> 00:01:35,470 enemies number one against this administration when you have 25 00:01:35,550 --> 00:01:38,270 such a long history of defending 26 00:01:38,990 --> 00:01:42,430 Republican foreign policy. How did that happen, Tom? 27 00:01:42,910 --> 00:01:45,950 It's, you know, Heidi, it's a strange thing. I mean, I think back to those 28 00:01:45,950 --> 00:01:49,710 days, you know, when we were just before we started recording, I was talking about 29 00:01:49,710 --> 00:01:53,310 working for a Republican senator. And, you know, back in the day, I'll 30 00:01:53,310 --> 00:01:57,110 steal a line from Chris Matthews. I would have been one 31 00:01:57,110 --> 00:02:00,910 of the staff people plotting against you, you know, 32 00:02:00,910 --> 00:02:04,550 in the, in the Senate, but within the confines of the 33 00:02:04,550 --> 00:02:07,910 Constitution. Not because I thought, you know, the 34 00:02:07,910 --> 00:02:11,550 Democrats or, or liberals were my enemy. We just 35 00:02:11,550 --> 00:02:15,110 disagreed about policies that, you know, we all loved our country. 36 00:02:15,430 --> 00:02:18,630 We all believe in the Constitution and the rule of law. We just disagreed about 37 00:02:19,270 --> 00:02:22,910 how much money should we give to a certain country, how, you know, how many 38 00:02:22,910 --> 00:02:26,630 nuclear weapons should we have, you know, things like that. And 39 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:31,110 I think what's interesting is that all of the 40 00:02:31,110 --> 00:02:34,869 things, I mean, I've changed my mind on some things. We all do. We get 41 00:02:34,869 --> 00:02:38,150 older. I mean, I worked in the Senate when I was 31, and now I'm 42 00:02:38,150 --> 00:02:41,870 65. So I, I have some different views on things, but 43 00:02:41,870 --> 00:02:45,430 I, I think I haven't changed. I think that the, 44 00:02:46,690 --> 00:02:50,410 the litmus Test for the Republican Party is just loyalty 45 00:02:50,410 --> 00:02:53,890 to Donald Trump, whose, whose policies, I would add 46 00:02:54,370 --> 00:02:57,330 both foreign policy and his domestic policies 47 00:02:58,370 --> 00:03:01,250 are nowhere in the neighborhood of conservative, 48 00:03:02,530 --> 00:03:05,890 at least conservative as we would have understood it 20 or 49 00:03:06,290 --> 00:03:10,050 even 10 or 15 years ago. You know, statist, 50 00:03:10,130 --> 00:03:12,860 big government, deficit spending, 51 00:03:13,420 --> 00:03:17,020 anti-NATO, anti-atlanticist, pro-Russia. 52 00:03:17,420 --> 00:03:21,020 I mean, that's, that's not, I'm, you know, if that, 53 00:03:21,180 --> 00:03:24,940 if, if that's a conservative now, then I'm not a conservative, but I think 54 00:03:24,940 --> 00:03:28,660 of myself as an old school conservative and I haven't really changed 55 00:03:28,660 --> 00:03:32,060 that much. And one of my, one of my lines that I use now is 56 00:03:32,060 --> 00:03:35,780 the era of Big Governments back. It's just not the Big Government you recognize 57 00:03:35,780 --> 00:03:39,230 from the Republican Party. Well, and you know, 58 00:03:40,190 --> 00:03:43,630 the Republicans, socialism has become one of these, 59 00:03:43,950 --> 00:03:47,670 you know, scary words that people are throwing at each other. But 60 00:03:47,670 --> 00:03:51,310 when I see the US government buying 10 and 20% 61 00:03:51,470 --> 00:03:55,270 stakes in private companies, you know, I was 62 00:03:55,270 --> 00:03:58,510 a scholar of the Soviet Union. When the State starts owning major 63 00:03:58,590 --> 00:04:01,950 enterprises, that feels like socialism to me. 64 00:04:02,910 --> 00:04:06,540 You know, or at least a move towards oligarchy. Well, 65 00:04:07,020 --> 00:04:10,220 it's, it's crony capitalism, of course, is what it really is. 66 00:04:10,940 --> 00:04:14,580 But, you know, the idea that, well, we'll have trade wars and then 67 00:04:14,580 --> 00:04:18,060 we'll just bail out farmers, I mean, that's huge 68 00:04:18,220 --> 00:04:21,500 kind of left leaning populist statism. 69 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:26,060 That is not identifiable to me 70 00:04:26,060 --> 00:04:29,580 anyway as anything like conservative. And I think 71 00:04:29,580 --> 00:04:33,380 90% of things Donald Trump is doing, if, if Joe Biden or 72 00:04:33,380 --> 00:04:37,140 Barack Obama or you had ever voted for something like that, people 73 00:04:37,140 --> 00:04:40,860 would have lost their minds. But this is all about loyalty to Donald 74 00:04:40,860 --> 00:04:44,220 Trump now. It's not about principle. It's not really about ideas for the 75 00:04:44,220 --> 00:04:47,860 Republican Party. Tom, in the world that you lived in as 76 00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:51,420 not only an aide, but an expert when it comes to all of this, could 77 00:04:51,420 --> 00:04:55,260 you ever imagine that we'd be saying Secretary 78 00:04:55,580 --> 00:04:59,350 Hegseth. I mean, how did, how did we get to 79 00:04:59,350 --> 00:05:03,110 there? Because it's clear to me that he 80 00:05:03,110 --> 00:05:06,590 doesn't have what it takes to do the job. I mean, how did we get 81 00:05:06,590 --> 00:05:10,430 to there? That's a very kind evaluation to say he 82 00:05:10,430 --> 00:05:13,430 doesn't have what it takes. I would argue he is the most 83 00:05:13,510 --> 00:05:16,710 manifestly unqualified Secretary of Defense 84 00:05:16,950 --> 00:05:20,790 perhaps in modern history. And I think we 85 00:05:20,790 --> 00:05:24,350 got there. There's a, there's a kind of a big 86 00:05:24,350 --> 00:05:28,000 explanation and a smaller one. The bigger explanation is that the Cold 87 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,640 War ended. And despite America 88 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,120 being involved in kind of imperial policing in places like 89 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,560 Afghanistan, the costs of foreign policy 90 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,640 were borne by a very small number of volunteers. And 91 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,280 so Americans just didn't have to think about foreign affairs. They 92 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:50,120 didn't have to think about foreign threats. It's been 25 years 93 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,600 since 9/11. And I think when you have a country that 94 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,280 loses that sense of seriousness, you can shrug and 95 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:00,880 say, yeah, why? Why not Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense? What could go, 96 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,800 what's the worst that could happen? You know, because nothing 97 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,480 really matters. And I think that's endemic to this whole 98 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,280 movement. So the smaller explanation is that 99 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,640 people now have people on the right, I would argue, become so 100 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,400 tribalized about supporting Donald Trump that I 101 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,120 think, I would imagine that a lot of Heidi's former colleagues 102 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,400 probably had a minor aneurysm when they. They heard that Pete Hegseth 103 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,200 was being nominated. But there. But again, it's like, well, I can 104 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,880 either vote, I can vote against him and be a principal person and get 105 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,680 primaried out of my seat by MAGA world, or I can sort of shrug 106 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,280 and hope that, that nothing really bad happens. 107 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,200 And I think that we're in that kind of unserious, you 108 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,600 know, what does it really matter? The bureaucracy kind of 109 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,360 works and keeps things moving. And 110 00:06:55,840 --> 00:06:59,680 I think that was that in part comes from the first term where there were 111 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,440 adults around Trump who, the way I, I describe 112 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,960 it is they put pool noodles around him and baby bumpers and, 113 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,920 you know, put all the, you know, like when you have a toddler and you 114 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,360 put all the breakable stuff away. Nobody's doing that now. 115 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,740 So I could not have imagined, you know, Secretary of 116 00:07:17,740 --> 00:07:21,460 Defense Pete Hegseth or Director of National Intelligence 117 00:07:21,460 --> 00:07:25,300 Tulsi Gabbard. I certainly could have imagined, couldn't have imagined the President 118 00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:28,580 of the United States siding with Russia against 119 00:07:28,660 --> 00:07:32,100 NATO and against our own government. But, 120 00:07:32,260 --> 00:07:35,420 you know, this is a time where we're all getting used to a lot of 121 00:07:35,420 --> 00:07:39,260 really horrible things. Tom, as a lawyer, I 122 00:07:39,260 --> 00:07:43,060 think about what's happening at the Justice Department, and I think about, can 123 00:07:43,060 --> 00:07:46,680 we go back to the way it was once this is over, or 124 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,400 will this just be a race to the bottom? I also think and talk to 125 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,080 a lot of my friends who are military, a lot of them who 126 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,720 have served at the highest levels of the Defense Department, 127 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,440 who wonder the same thing. And so when you think about it, what are 128 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,040 the worst things that are happening right now with leadership 129 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,640 at DOD and the Pentagon, and can it 130 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,430 get fixed? I think DOD and DOJ, the problem is 131 00:08:13,430 --> 00:08:16,710 the same, which is that we're burning through years 132 00:08:17,030 --> 00:08:20,670 of accumulated experience by getting rid of 133 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:24,310 people simply because they are not making some political 134 00:08:24,630 --> 00:08:28,110 cut, you know, making. But I would also 135 00:08:28,110 --> 00:08:31,590 argue we're changing the mission of those two groups. Oh 136 00:08:32,310 --> 00:08:36,070 well, the DOJ especially, I mean, that's just Donald Trump's personal law firm 137 00:08:36,470 --> 00:08:39,110 and that's how he wants it to be. And I think he's trying to turn 138 00:08:39,650 --> 00:08:43,250 the, the Pentagon into his personal militia, into his 139 00:08:43,250 --> 00:08:46,850 personal army that is loyal to him, does what he 140 00:08:46,850 --> 00:08:49,250 says and, and obeys the President 141 00:08:50,770 --> 00:08:54,450 before the Constitution. And he's trying really hard to do that. 142 00:08:55,330 --> 00:08:58,290 The problem is, you know, how do you get that back afterwards? 143 00:08:59,490 --> 00:09:03,170 I think when Donald Trump is gone and you know, knock on wood, that 144 00:09:03,250 --> 00:09:06,890 he will be not run for a third term and we won't have to go 145 00:09:06,890 --> 00:09:10,710 through the, that nonsense, but that his movement, as we 146 00:09:10,710 --> 00:09:14,430 saw, you know, this week, last week in the elections, his 147 00:09:14,430 --> 00:09:18,030 movement can be defeated. People just have to come out and vote. And I think 148 00:09:18,030 --> 00:09:21,590 you're going to have to get kind of reverse the 149 00:09:21,590 --> 00:09:24,670 purge of the purge, so to speak. You're going to have to get rid of 150 00:09:24,670 --> 00:09:28,510 all these cronies and lackeys and unqualified 151 00:09:28,510 --> 00:09:32,310 people that were brought into these two institutions. And the military, 152 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,760 that's going to be hard because you're losing three and four star 153 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,760 generals. My, my friend Elliot Cohen pointed out in an article in the 154 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,400 Atlantic that when Hegseth did that 155 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,040 little stunt of calling everybody into the auditorium and you know, 156 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,840 talking about fat soldiers and all that nonsense, 157 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,640 that this former, this 44 year old former 158 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,080 Major was talking to an accumulate a room 159 00:10:00,790 --> 00:10:04,230 with an accumulated 25,000 years of 160 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:07,750 military experience in it. Yeah. 161 00:10:07,830 --> 00:10:11,510 And I mean, it's just, it's laughable. I mean, 162 00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:14,230 if it weren't so dangerous and so 163 00:10:14,790 --> 00:10:18,550 inimical and to the American constitutional 164 00:10:18,550 --> 00:10:22,350 experience, it would be almost. You know, I keep saying these 165 00:10:22,350 --> 00:10:25,950 guys are just a constant Saturday Night Live sketch, but 166 00:10:25,950 --> 00:10:29,790 it's not funny because Hegseth is firing 167 00:10:29,790 --> 00:10:33,320 people because they, he doesn't want to hear that we can't just 168 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,960 murder people on the high seats. And you know, 169 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,840 I don't know what are we going to do next? Invade Nigeria or something that 170 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,160 whatever the president saw on TV 10 minutes ago. So, 171 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,800 so that, that's, I have to ask this though, Tom. You know, I got the 172 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,560 impression in the first Trump administration that, and maybe 173 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:55,240 it was because it was coming off of military activity, 174 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,020 you know, call it war, call it whatever you want. But I got the 175 00:10:59,020 --> 00:11:02,420 sense that one of the things that Trump pushed the most 176 00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:06,820 that he saw as a strength was not using the military, was 177 00:11:06,820 --> 00:11:10,540 not Being aggressive. When it came to looking for 178 00:11:10,540 --> 00:11:14,220 a fight, it seems to be just the opposite now that it's 179 00:11:14,220 --> 00:11:18,060 like, I've got Pete Hegseth, we've got all of this. Why not take it 180 00:11:18,060 --> 00:11:21,380 out, why not use it, and why not get into a fight? 181 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:24,420 I think he, you know, in his first term, 182 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:29,480 he, he end his second term, he ran as a peace 183 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,120 candidate, but that was always just, I think, populist 184 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,080 popcorn that he was handing out because I don't think he really believed it. Remember, 185 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,080 this is the same guy in his first term who calls Jim 186 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,880 Mattis and says, we're going to kill Assad. I 187 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,360 want a plan to kill Bashar Assad. And Mattis apparently 188 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,820 said, okay, well, get right to work, Mr. President. He hung up the phone and 189 00:11:53,820 --> 00:11:57,140 then said, we're not going to do that. Now that worries me. That was a 190 00:11:57,140 --> 00:12:00,620 bad thing in the first term because you had the Secretary of defense basically saying, 191 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:04,700 I will selectively ignore the President at will, which is not a good 192 00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:09,700 tradition to begin in civil military relations, especially when the 193 00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:13,380 secretary is a former general. But my point is, Trump had a lot of 194 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:17,010 crazy ideas about using the military. And he, 195 00:12:17,650 --> 00:12:21,130 he doesn't. He, he, if you want to try and square the circle and be 196 00:12:21,130 --> 00:12:24,810 fair to the president somehow, he's saying, I don't want to get involved 197 00:12:24,810 --> 00:12:28,530 in bogged down these long, complicated wars 198 00:12:28,530 --> 00:12:32,370 where I have to read briefings and understand stuff. But I 199 00:12:32,530 --> 00:12:36,370 do like the idea of using the military for these 200 00:12:36,370 --> 00:12:40,010 showy big, kind of showstopper set 201 00:12:40,010 --> 00:12:43,410 pieces, like, you know, we're going to send B2s into 202 00:12:43,410 --> 00:12:47,180 Iran, we're going to blow up terrorists Nigeria, we're 203 00:12:47,180 --> 00:12:50,540 going to fly out and just explode boats out in the middle of the Caribbean. 204 00:12:50,700 --> 00:12:54,380 I think he thinks that's different from 205 00:12:56,060 --> 00:12:59,860 the things he ran against, which were being involved in Afghanistan, being involved in 206 00:12:59,860 --> 00:13:03,420 Iraq, having these long presences there. So, I 207 00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:06,740 mean, I think it's always helpful to think of Donald Trump as very 208 00:13:06,740 --> 00:13:10,350 childlike. He's fascinated by the military. He 209 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:14,190 loves the idea of powerful military strikes executed at 210 00:13:14,190 --> 00:13:17,910 his command. And he 211 00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:22,070 gravitates toward the military because it is the one institution in American 212 00:13:22,070 --> 00:13:25,790 life that he, I think, correctly realizes has to 213 00:13:25,790 --> 00:13:29,310 obey his orders and can't push back as hard as even the 214 00:13:29,310 --> 00:13:33,150 DOJ or FBI or anywhere else. So I, 215 00:13:33,150 --> 00:13:36,790 I mean, he's being inconsistent, but I think in his mind he's saying, no, no, 216 00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:39,790 I don't want to get involved and bogged down in any long wars. I just 217 00:13:39,790 --> 00:13:43,090 want to use the military a lot for of showy 218 00:13:43,410 --> 00:13:46,930 explosions everywhere that I can make happen by picking up the 219 00:13:46,930 --> 00:13:49,410 phone. Made for TV Military. 220 00:13:50,690 --> 00:13:53,730 Absolutely. Everything, Donald Trump's entire 221 00:13:53,730 --> 00:13:57,170 consciousness, to me, seems to be mediated through 222 00:13:57,170 --> 00:14:00,890 television. Yeah, it's all about ratings. Well, 223 00:14:00,890 --> 00:14:04,690 and also that apparently. That's like I was trying to figure out the other day, 224 00:14:04,690 --> 00:14:07,570 what on or where did he get this kind of, you know, 225 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,520 burn his saddle about Nigeria. And apparently he was watching TV 226 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,120 and he saw something on TV and said, okay, tap, tap, tap, tap, 227 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,520 tap, post on truth social Nigeria, better cut it out. 228 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,040 You know, that's not a policy. That's. That's an old man watching TV and 229 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,360 shaking his fist and saying, those darn Nigerians are going to pay. 230 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,200 That's, you know, that's how he thinks. Everything happens 231 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,010 through television. But you do have to remember he stopped. What is it, six or 232 00:14:37,010 --> 00:14:40,850 seven or. Eight or nine, whatever, eight wars. Aren't 233 00:14:40,850 --> 00:14:44,090 you supposed to say teen in front of that or after? I mean, 234 00:14:44,410 --> 00:14:48,170 it's - 18 you think? 18. Well, it'll be 18 235 00:14:48,170 --> 00:14:52,010 by tomorrow. You know, it's all about declaring victory. So 236 00:14:52,090 --> 00:14:55,810 what price do we pay when you're blowing boats, when 237 00:14:55,810 --> 00:14:59,610 you're murdering people on the high seas? I mean, what, what price, 238 00:14:59,930 --> 00:15:03,700 as a country do we pay? Because it appears to me that 239 00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:07,460 other world leaders have learned how to deal with them, and that's to basically 240 00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:11,882 suck up to them. So what price do we play, pay 241 00:15:11,883 --> 00:15:15,620 Tom? Well, when it comes to the world leaders, they manage 242 00:15:15,620 --> 00:15:19,380 up, right? There's that business, right? You manage up when you have a 243 00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:23,060 bad boss. And all these people have said, you know, 244 00:15:23,060 --> 00:15:26,780 tell him that he's a. It's, it's. I keep coming back to that 245 00:15:26,780 --> 00:15:30,140 Twilight Zone episode, you know, with Bill Mumy is the super 246 00:15:30,140 --> 00:15:33,780 powerful kid that everybody's afraid of. So they constantly say, it's good what you did. 247 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,800 You're doing good, Anthony. That's terrific. You know, it's the same 248 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,960 thing. No matter what Trump does, somebody picks up and says, it's good what you 249 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,680 did, Don. And they give him presents 250 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,280 and little awards and plaques and things. I mean they're managing 251 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,040 - And nominations. They're managing him like he's a fourth grader 252 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,920 and not a very mature fourth grader. What we lose with these 253 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,520 operations, first of all, we're risking the lives of American 254 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,170 service people. Even though we're just out there blowing up boats. Every time you 255 00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:06,890 launch something, every time you move military assets around, 256 00:16:07,930 --> 00:16:11,610 people can get hurt. Even if it's just by accidents, even if it's 257 00:16:11,610 --> 00:16:14,890 unintentional but we're also losing 258 00:16:15,770 --> 00:16:19,490 our position as leader of the free world. And I know a lot of Trump's 259 00:16:19,490 --> 00:16:23,050 people will say, well, who cares about that? You know, that's, 260 00:16:23,290 --> 00:16:27,010 that's deep state stuff. Because 261 00:16:27,010 --> 00:16:30,770 I think too many Americans don't realize that their quality of 262 00:16:30,770 --> 00:16:33,250 life, their material security, 263 00:16:34,530 --> 00:16:38,050 their day to day quality of life really depends 264 00:16:38,290 --> 00:16:41,570 on the functioning of an international system of 265 00:16:42,050 --> 00:16:45,850 peace and security and trade that they don't really 266 00:16:45,850 --> 00:16:49,610 see every day. It just happens. They don't know how things end 267 00:16:49,610 --> 00:16:53,420 up in the grocery store. They just get there. And so 268 00:16:53,660 --> 00:16:57,380 if, that, if we. I've talked many times to audiences where 269 00:16:57,380 --> 00:17:01,100 I say, look, if you want to live in a world where 270 00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:04,940 Beijing and Moscow make the rules, you're going to end up with that 271 00:17:04,940 --> 00:17:08,700 and you're not going to like it. And by the time you realize 272 00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:12,380 that, it will be too late. Because when you, especially when the President 273 00:17:13,020 --> 00:17:16,820 orders these kind of kooky, you know, I can kill anybody 274 00:17:16,820 --> 00:17:19,840 I want sort of orders, you lose the 275 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,600 presumption of the benefit of the doubt if you ever actually need to use 276 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,120 military force. I mean, the 277 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:30,880 lesson of 60 years, 80 years since the end of World War II is 278 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,840 allies are the best thing to have. One of the reasons the United States can 279 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,760 do many of the things it does and Russia can't. 280 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,440 For years, I sort of, even when I would go to Russia and sort 281 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,290 of tweak my Russian friends and I'd say, it's nice to have 282 00:17:46,290 --> 00:17:49,850 allies. You don't even have friends. I mean, Russia doesn't even have friends. They have 283 00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:53,370 clients. China has, you know, 284 00:17:53,450 --> 00:17:57,130 sort of friends, mostly clients. The United States has been blessed to 285 00:17:57,130 --> 00:18:00,330 have 32 countries in the most powerful alliance in history 286 00:18:01,050 --> 00:18:04,810 that have our backs. And Trump is going to squander that. 287 00:18:04,810 --> 00:18:08,250 When you talk about seizing Greenland, you're literally talking about 288 00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:12,100 attacking one of our NATO allies. It's insane. I mean, there is something, 289 00:18:12,180 --> 00:18:15,700 I think there's something genuinely wrong with the man. But 290 00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:19,620 electing him twice, I think has sent a chilling 291 00:18:19,620 --> 00:18:23,460 message to our allies that the first time wasn't a 292 00:18:23,460 --> 00:18:26,660 one off, that, you know, we could always say that first term was like 293 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:30,420 America. You know, we went on a, like Brexit, right? 294 00:18:30,660 --> 00:18:33,420 We all went on a bender and we woke up the next morning and we 295 00:18:33,420 --> 00:18:37,200 went, oh, crap, you know, what did we do? The 296 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,520 problem. And you see it in Britain now, right? They had one referendum and they 297 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,240 all regret it now. We didn't regret it four years later. We 298 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,840 said, yeah, let's try that again. And our allies have said, oh, 299 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,760 okay, so this wasn't just a mistake, that there are 300 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,080 75 million of you or 80 million of you who actually think this is 301 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,760 a good idea, and that makes us less trustworthy, and being less 302 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,360 trustworthy makes us less secure. Yeah. Both Joel and I 303 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:06,200 spend a lot of time with veterans, and I think people misunderstand. They think they're 304 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,020 politically engaged to guarantee veterans benefits, and certainly 305 00:19:10,260 --> 00:19:13,940 that is a high priority for them. But a high priority 306 00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:17,540 is maintaining a strong military, maintaining an 307 00:19:17,540 --> 00:19:21,340 independent military. And, you know, you see a record number of 308 00:19:21,340 --> 00:19:24,900 veterans right now running for public office on both 309 00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:28,460 sides, but a lot of Democratic veterans saying, this is a 310 00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:32,100 bridge too far. This is not why I wore the uniform. This is not 311 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:35,790 why I fought for my country. How. What, what would 312 00:19:35,790 --> 00:19:39,590 you say to a veteran out there who is dismayed by what's happening? 313 00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:44,550 Oh, boy. You know, I would. I would remind 314 00:19:44,550 --> 00:19:47,870 every veteran that to be like George 315 00:19:47,870 --> 00:19:51,590 Washington, the first commander, our first commander, who 316 00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:55,230 said, remember that when we took up the 317 00:19:55,230 --> 00:19:57,670 soldier, we did not lay aside the citizen. 318 00:19:58,870 --> 00:20:02,420 And that if you're upset about what's happening, you are a 319 00:20:02,420 --> 00:20:05,020 citizen of the United States first and foremost. 320 00:20:06,140 --> 00:20:09,980 That's more important even than being a veteran or a, you know, 321 00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:13,500 a New Englander or a Californian or a Southerner or whatever it is. 322 00:20:14,060 --> 00:20:17,659 I mean, I. I wrote a. Just before the election, I wrote a cover story 323 00:20:17,659 --> 00:20:21,100 for the Atlantic about Washington, and I. I was so moved, 324 00:20:21,740 --> 00:20:25,500 studying him, because in his will, he refers to 325 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:29,300 himself as George Washington, a citizen. The first thing he 326 00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,700 writes, I, George Washington, a citizen of the United States. 327 00:20:34,860 --> 00:20:38,460 You know, and to say, be involved. Speak up. 328 00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:42,420 You know, bring your military background to this debate 329 00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:45,620 and to. And to say those things, Heidi, that you just said, I didn't sign 330 00:20:45,620 --> 00:20:49,460 up for this. It's not why I wore this uniform. You 331 00:20:49,460 --> 00:20:53,140 know, I didn't. I didn't join the military to salute any 332 00:20:53,140 --> 00:20:56,830 one president. And I think that 333 00:20:56,830 --> 00:21:00,630 Trump has been very successful at fudging 334 00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:04,390 for a lot of people, and I think that's our fault as Americans that we 335 00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:08,030 didn't do enough civic education anywhere. But especially in the 336 00:21:08,030 --> 00:21:11,830 military, he's fudged the difference between loyalty to the Constitution and loyalty to the 337 00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:15,550 commander in chief. I want to ask about Russia, Tom, while we have 338 00:21:15,550 --> 00:21:19,310 you on, you know, you line this deal up 339 00:21:19,310 --> 00:21:23,100 in Alaska, you buy all the red carpet or else you ship it up there, 340 00:21:23,260 --> 00:21:26,460 you roll it up, you talk about the relationship you have with Putin. 341 00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:30,940 There hasn't been any results with that. Had 342 00:21:30,940 --> 00:21:34,780 any other president done that? First off, there would have been a big question 343 00:21:35,020 --> 00:21:37,980 in regards to what happened, why there? 344 00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:42,540 And yet there's no accountability when it comes 345 00:21:42,540 --> 00:21:46,140 to a result of it. Oh, Donald 346 00:21:46,140 --> 00:21:49,970 Trump's never. First of all, Donald Trump's voters will never hold 347 00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:53,770 him accountable for anything. They live in a completely 348 00:21:53,770 --> 00:21:56,610 sealed off reality. After that summit 349 00:21:57,570 --> 00:22:01,410 on social media, I'd said, you know, hey, this is, I have some, 350 00:22:01,570 --> 00:22:05,410 some experience, you know, writing about this stuff that's a failed summit. I 351 00:22:05,410 --> 00:22:09,210 mean, Trump got his, got his head handed to him by, by Putin who flew 352 00:22:09,210 --> 00:22:13,010 in and said, I'm not doing any of these things that you're talking about. No, 353 00:22:13,010 --> 00:22:15,870 I don't want to have lunch with you. I'm getting back on my plane. I 354 00:22:15,940 --> 00:22:19,220 go tell Zarinowski, excuse me, go tell Zelenskyy. 355 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:22,540 I want, what I want, and I'm getting on my plane and going back to 356 00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:25,700 Russia. And by the way, thank you for making me look good and making yourself 357 00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:29,140 look like an ass. And, and, and his 358 00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:32,820 supporters are like, see, he's fighting for peace. He's doing, I'm 359 00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:36,540 like, did we, you know, there. It's almost like talking to people that 360 00:22:36,540 --> 00:22:40,180 are like, have, having a break with reality. 361 00:22:41,060 --> 00:22:44,910 I think the other problem though goes back to what I was talking about earlier, 362 00:22:44,910 --> 00:22:48,590 which is people say, all right, so summit 363 00:22:48,590 --> 00:22:52,390 fell through. What's a big deal? There's a war raging in the middle 364 00:22:52,390 --> 00:22:56,070 of Europe right now. Hundreds of 365 00:22:56,070 --> 00:22:59,830 thousands of troops and civilians and tanks. 366 00:23:00,390 --> 00:23:04,110 Literally there is a gigantic war happening in 367 00:23:04,110 --> 00:23:07,670 Europe. And I think because Americans, it doesn't affect them 368 00:23:08,070 --> 00:23:11,820 and because it's not because there are so many sources of information that 369 00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:15,580 just bombard the average citizen with everything from war in Ukraine to 370 00:23:15,580 --> 00:23:19,340 the price of eggs to, you know, tornadoes and hurricanes, they 371 00:23:19,340 --> 00:23:21,420 just go, you know what, okay, whatever. 372 00:23:22,860 --> 00:23:26,580 40 years ago, I'm, I'm an old enough to, you 373 00:23:26,580 --> 00:23:30,380 know, we're all old enough to be Cold War kids. A failed 374 00:23:30,380 --> 00:23:33,980 Summit during a war in Europe would have been considered a national 375 00:23:34,060 --> 00:23:37,850 crisis. But we don't 376 00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:41,090 think that way. And Donald Trump in particular, our 377 00:23:41,090 --> 00:23:44,850 expectations, and this is something unfortunately, that both the right and the 378 00:23:44,850 --> 00:23:48,410 left share. The expectations of Donald Trump are 379 00:23:48,490 --> 00:23:51,849 so low that no one really even 380 00:23:51,850 --> 00:23:55,570 blinks when he fails. Because it's every day that every day 381 00:23:55,570 --> 00:23:58,770 there's some disastrous misstep. 382 00:23:58,770 --> 00:24:02,570 Tariffs, inflation, going up, personnel problems, 383 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,120 you know, we, the, the, the big flap about SignalGate 384 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:09,760 that ended up where, you know, 385 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,200 Secretary of Defense or the, the National Security Advisor is 386 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,920 texting my boss at the Atlantic, you know, classified stuff 387 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,880 is just astonishing. I mean, in any other Administration, people would be up 388 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,640 in arms. But Donald Trump has worn us down. 389 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,060 He's worn us down so that when it happens, we go, what are you going 390 00:24:31,060 --> 00:24:34,820 to do? Well, if you look at this and you 391 00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:38,500 think about past elections, a 5 deferment 392 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:42,140 for bone spurs guy telling 393 00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:46,460 real soldiers how to conduct themselves would 394 00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:49,820 not have been anywhere near what I would expect 395 00:24:50,220 --> 00:24:53,700 that the military would tolerate or people who support the 396 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:57,300 military. But yet we're dealing with someone who has 397 00:24:57,380 --> 00:25:00,500 absolutely zero experience with the military. 398 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:04,500 Zero experience. Yeah. And zero experience in, in 399 00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:07,460 politics until he became, until he became president. 400 00:25:09,060 --> 00:25:11,940 You know, it's, it's interesting because other. 401 00:25:12,739 --> 00:25:15,980 It used to be that you had to have some military service in your background 402 00:25:15,980 --> 00:25:19,660 to be a credible candidate. Bill Clinton's the first president that just gets by 403 00:25:19,660 --> 00:25:23,430 that, right? Or just says, you know, but, but Clinton went out 404 00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:27,270 of his way to not look like. To look. To try not to look 405 00:25:27,270 --> 00:25:29,390 like he was antagonizing the military. 406 00:25:31,070 --> 00:25:34,830 You know, Dick Cheney didn't serve, George Bush in the National Guard 407 00:25:34,830 --> 00:25:38,550 and so on. Trump not only 408 00:25:38,550 --> 00:25:42,030 didn't serve, but goes out. And this is a very Trumpian things. 409 00:25:42,110 --> 00:25:44,430 You're in the military. Let me tell you how to do war. 410 00:25:46,030 --> 00:25:49,830 He is, like, when he, he did the same thing with doctors. They're trying 411 00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:53,640 to give him a tour, and he's like, you know, I know so much about 412 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,160 medicine. Let me tell you about medicine. There is kind of an 413 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,880 aggressive ignorance about the man where he's, it's not just that he doesn't 414 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,560 know things, but he wants to tell you about the 415 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,400 things he doesn't know about. And I think that, yeah, it is 416 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,720 surprising that he, 417 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,400 that his supporters, who claim to be very pro military, 418 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,930 really put up with a huge amount of hostility he has 419 00:26:19,410 --> 00:26:23,210 for the military. You know, the Atlantic broke that 420 00:26:23,210 --> 00:26:27,010 story years ago about suckers and losers and his kind 421 00:26:27,010 --> 00:26:30,850 of dismissive view of people who've died in 422 00:26:31,090 --> 00:26:34,890 conflict. You know, standing there in Arlington Cemetery and looking around all these graves and 423 00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:38,650 going, I don't get it, you know, what was in it for them? But 424 00:26:38,650 --> 00:26:42,130 again, I think it's, it's this notion that so many of Trump's 425 00:26:42,130 --> 00:26:45,740 supporters have that, yeah, you know, he's crude and he, he's 426 00:26:45,740 --> 00:26:49,420 ignorant, but he hates the people we hate. He makes people mad 427 00:26:49,660 --> 00:26:53,380 in a way that we find enjoyable, so they just cut him slack on all 428 00:26:53,380 --> 00:26:56,940 this other stuff, or they convince themselves. And I've had this conversation 429 00:26:57,020 --> 00:27:00,860 so many times with Trump supporters where they say, well, that's not what 430 00:27:00,860 --> 00:27:04,660 he meant. I know what he meant. And it's 431 00:27:04,660 --> 00:27:08,260 like in we both speak the English 432 00:27:08,260 --> 00:27:11,550 language. I'm pretty sure we both can, you know, figure out what he said and 433 00:27:11,550 --> 00:27:15,230 what he meant, or they just deny it. They say he never, 434 00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:17,750 he never suckers, losers, he never said it. 435 00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:22,710 You know, all those things that are reported just fake news or lies, you 436 00:27:22,710 --> 00:27:26,550 really are not going to get past people who have erected, 437 00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:30,950 you know, a kind of dome of lucite around themselves 438 00:27:31,030 --> 00:27:34,870 that just is impenetrable to facts or reason. 439 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,000 And that's just how it is now, unfortunately. Heidi, coming off 440 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,360 of Veterans Day and of course, you know, the whole Shutdown 441 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,640 and you know, this isn't the reason that we wanted to talk to 442 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,319 Tom today. I get it. But it also ties into a man 443 00:27:51,319 --> 00:27:54,880 that was your good friend that you got to know very well in your time 444 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,560 in the Senate, and that's John McCain. You know, and 445 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,520 both of you, when I heard suckers and losers, the first 446 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,340 thing I talk about or talk thought about, I should say, was 447 00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:10,300 how incredibly, how terrible it was to call John 448 00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:13,820 McCain that. And hi, you know, on Veterans 449 00:28:13,820 --> 00:28:16,980 Day. That has to bring a bad memory for you. 450 00:28:17,460 --> 00:28:21,260 Well, it brings up the loss even more 451 00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:24,260 profound because right now, the gutless 452 00:28:24,580 --> 00:28:28,380 Republican Party people who profess that they 453 00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:31,640 have loyalty to the, to the kind of rule of law 454 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,280 loyalty to the norms that involve nonpartisan 455 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,840 behavior at the military, they say nothing when banners 456 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,640 fly out of Donald Trump's picture, they say nothing when 457 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,360 Kristi Noem puts a video up in airports 458 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,920 that is clearly in violation of the Hatch act, they say 459 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,640 nothing. Guess what? John McCain would be saying a lot 460 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,640 and he would be leading that effort. And 461 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,360 where are those leaders? I mean, the best we've got right 462 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,640 now is Rand Paul, which is so 463 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,480 ironic, let me tell you. But at least he's speaking 464 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,320 up about what's happening in the Caribbean. At least he's speaking up about 465 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,520 long trade relationships that are being injured. 466 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,920 And it's just like, I don't know why they 467 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,680 want to be a United States Senator. Why don't they just give the proxy 468 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,470 to the President, go home and golf? I have no idea why those people 469 00:29:27,870 --> 00:29:30,510 want to sit in the Senate and be 470 00:29:31,150 --> 00:29:34,910 absolutely gutless and fearful 471 00:29:35,390 --> 00:29:39,070 and cowards, literally cowards. Because I will tell you 472 00:29:39,070 --> 00:29:42,830 one thing. They all know this is not good. They are not 473 00:29:42,830 --> 00:29:45,470 stupid people. They are gutless people. 474 00:29:46,830 --> 00:29:50,590 Well, being a Senator is a good gig, though there's a lot of these folks 475 00:29:50,590 --> 00:29:54,290 who can't imagine being any. You. I'm, you know, I don't. I worked 476 00:29:54,290 --> 00:29:58,050 there years ago. You you were, you know, this. There are people who just can't 477 00:29:58,050 --> 00:30:01,810 imagine being anything else. Yeah, that's it. And, and 478 00:30:01,810 --> 00:30:04,970 they're going to do what they have to do to stay there. And that 479 00:30:05,290 --> 00:30:08,969 Trump relies on that. And, and he relies on a certain amount of 480 00:30:08,969 --> 00:30:12,650 bullying to say, if you cross me, your phones will ring, you'll get 481 00:30:12,650 --> 00:30:16,450 death threats. I mean, this is another thing, you know, that 482 00:30:16,450 --> 00:30:20,250 we've normalized in our political experience is that 483 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,840 threats of violence, threat, death threat, they're just a 484 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,440 normal part of American politics now, apparently. 485 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,440 Tom, I know we only have a little time left, but I have to ask 486 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,040 you about this. With what happened in Israel and what's still 487 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,880 happening in Israel and the role that can play on, on 488 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,520 America's defense of itself even. 489 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,640 Was this between Netanyahu and Trump 490 00:30:48,220 --> 00:30:51,540 all staged? Was this a way that 491 00:30:51,540 --> 00:30:55,260 Netanyahu could help Donald Trump? And 492 00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:59,420 is this about, Is it a lot of collusion going on there, 493 00:30:59,420 --> 00:31:02,860 Tom? Joel, I, I just don't know. I, I mean, 494 00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:07,580 you know, I think I'm always reluctant 495 00:31:07,580 --> 00:31:11,060 to go for complicated explanations when the simple ones are 496 00:31:11,060 --> 00:31:14,740 staring right at us. You know, Israel, I 497 00:31:14,740 --> 00:31:18,540 think after October 7, Israel was going to go to war. That just was 498 00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:23,620 inevitable. You know, did it have to be 499 00:31:23,620 --> 00:31:26,420 as violent or as drawn out as it was? I think a lot of that 500 00:31:26,420 --> 00:31:30,060 has to do with Netanyahu and his personal fortunes in 501 00:31:30,060 --> 00:31:33,620 Israel. Whether they, there was some kind of deal between Trump, 502 00:31:33,620 --> 00:31:37,420 I, I doubt it. I suspect that Netanyahu 503 00:31:38,860 --> 00:31:42,670 annoyed Trump a lot because the whole thing made Trump 504 00:31:42,670 --> 00:31:45,830 look bad. And what's the one thing you're never supposed to do? The only time 505 00:31:45,830 --> 00:31:49,550 Trump's ever lashed out at Putin is for the same reason, When you 506 00:31:49,550 --> 00:31:53,390 make Donald Trump look bad. That's his only 507 00:31:53,630 --> 00:31:57,150 kind of yardstick for all this. So I just don't know, but I 508 00:31:57,630 --> 00:32:01,070 doubt it. And I think, you know, what's happened is 509 00:32:01,310 --> 00:32:05,110 awful and it's a tragedy. And look, give, you know, we'll give one cheer 510 00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:08,730 to Donald Trump for pressuring Netanyahu into a ceasefire. I 511 00:32:08,730 --> 00:32:11,970 think Netanyahu attacking Qatar probably 512 00:32:12,290 --> 00:32:15,970 helped move that process along. That wasn't the smartest move in the 513 00:32:15,970 --> 00:32:19,490 world. But as to, you know, I don't even want to 514 00:32:19,490 --> 00:32:22,530 speculate about things like collusion. I just don't have any evidence of that. 515 00:32:23,730 --> 00:32:27,530 Well, Tom, thanks for so much for joining us. I hope you'll come 516 00:32:27,530 --> 00:32:30,770 back. I mean, one of the things, we do a show 517 00:32:31,730 --> 00:32:35,350 basically about rural policy, but we know 518 00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:39,070 because we've lived there, that a disproportionate number of people 519 00:32:39,070 --> 00:32:42,910 who serve in uniform come from rural America, and they care 520 00:32:42,910 --> 00:32:46,550 deeply about their service. They believe in their service. And, 521 00:32:46,550 --> 00:32:50,390 you know, it's really, really hard for them to step up and say, 522 00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:54,430 you know, that might have been a mistake, that might have been something we 523 00:32:54,430 --> 00:32:57,510 shouldn't have done. But I think that there is more and more 524 00:32:58,390 --> 00:33:01,940 questioning of the norms that are being torn 525 00:33:01,940 --> 00:33:05,380 down at the Pentagon and more and more concern. 526 00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:09,500 The question is, can you survive the next three years? Well, I 527 00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:12,740 think anyone who thinks, you know, 528 00:33:13,140 --> 00:33:16,820 and I understand that for folks in the military, I was never in the 529 00:33:16,820 --> 00:33:20,180 military. I taught military officers for 25 years. The President 530 00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:24,020 is the President. You can almost hear the capital P when it's spoken 531 00:33:24,020 --> 00:33:27,310 as Commander in Chief. But the, but 532 00:33:28,670 --> 00:33:32,310 imagine, and I would say this to folks who have 533 00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:36,070 served, imagine if Barack 534 00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:39,710 Obama or Joe Biden or Bill Clinton had demanded the same 535 00:33:39,950 --> 00:33:43,630 level of personal loyalty and unquestioning 536 00:33:43,630 --> 00:33:47,430 obedience to really dangerous orders, 537 00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:51,270 like killing people on the high seas. If they had demanded that of 538 00:33:51,270 --> 00:33:55,010 you, would you be defending that? And I 539 00:33:55,010 --> 00:33:58,530 think the answer is no. I think Donald Trump has made it again. He's kind 540 00:33:58,530 --> 00:34:02,170 of fudged difference. Say that if you don't want to obey my orders, 541 00:34:02,170 --> 00:34:05,970 no matter how bad they are, that you are, you're not a patriot, you're, you're 542 00:34:05,970 --> 00:34:09,570 a traitor, you're treasonous. But the, the people in the United 543 00:34:09,570 --> 00:34:13,330 States military are sworn to defend the Constitution, 544 00:34:14,050 --> 00:34:17,770 not a particular man. And I think that's the most 545 00:34:17,770 --> 00:34:21,470 important thing, thing that everybody should remember. Well, Tom, this has been a real 546 00:34:21,470 --> 00:34:25,110 treat for me. I watch your work from afar. I have a lot of respect, 547 00:34:25,910 --> 00:34:29,670 really do. So thanks for joining us on the Hot dish. My pleasure. 548 00:34:29,670 --> 00:34:30,630 Thank you for having me. 549 00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:40,550 You know, Heidi, the Shutdown, the longest shutdown ever in history. 550 00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:44,550 Those people that were debating how to open it back up or people that you 551 00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:48,250 worked with, many of them. So I have to ask 552 00:34:48,250 --> 00:34:52,090 you, what effect did that have? What effect did that have 553 00:34:52,090 --> 00:34:55,570 on the Senate? What effect did that have on the Democratic Party? Well, 554 00:34:55,730 --> 00:34:59,250 it's hard to know, Joel, because obviously there is a big 555 00:34:59,730 --> 00:35:03,490 point of disagreement and a lot of hurt feelings and a lot of people 556 00:35:03,490 --> 00:35:07,250 had different perspectives. But the other thing is, you look at the vote, 557 00:35:07,730 --> 00:35:11,450 it's not a coincidence that it was only eight votes. They gave 558 00:35:11,450 --> 00:35:15,300 a lot of people who had, they called upon them to walk, 559 00:35:15,860 --> 00:35:19,500 you know, to give, they gave him a walk. And you know, Dick 560 00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:23,340 Durbin, who's leaving the Senate, he's also an institutionalist. You know, 561 00:35:23,340 --> 00:35:26,660 Catherine Cortez Masto was on that side to begin with, 562 00:35:27,540 --> 00:35:31,300 so was Angus King. And so I think that when you 563 00:35:31,300 --> 00:35:35,060 look at kind of how they did the count, you don't know how 564 00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:38,260 many people in the Senate behind them 565 00:35:38,890 --> 00:35:42,650 actually are glad that this happened. And I'm not saying it's everyone. I saw 566 00:35:42,890 --> 00:35:46,570 comments that Elizabeth and Bernie made, and I get it. But 567 00:35:47,290 --> 00:35:51,130 the time is to turn. It's done. And so 568 00:35:51,130 --> 00:35:54,849 my advice to my colleagues is start preparing for 569 00:35:54,849 --> 00:35:58,450 the December vote on the ACA. Start gathering the 570 00:35:58,450 --> 00:36:02,250 numbers, start calling out your colleagues on the other side. Start reporting 571 00:36:02,250 --> 00:36:05,800 what's going to happen to people's healthcare if they don't fix 572 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,240 this. Make the other side accountable. Win the fight. 573 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,160 They wanted to win the fight kind of in this leverage game. 574 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,880 And I'm saying win the fight on the principles of 575 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:20,479 what you're fighting for and get at it right now. Start talking 576 00:36:20,479 --> 00:36:24,280 about healthcare again right now. And I think it's gonna make a lot of 577 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,040 Republicans really uncomfortable when they start seeing 578 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,720 people whose premiums have doubled or tripled, who are working poor. 579 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,960 And so I say lick your wounds, have your 580 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,400 fights. Get back in the arena. Talk about affordability, 581 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,360 talk about what you can do. And I've been saying, coalesce around 582 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,120 a bill that would cap credit card interest at something other than 583 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,440 28%. I mean, think about that, 584 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,960 28%. It's just unheard of 585 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,320 that that would be the interest rate on credit cards. And so 586 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,690 find another issue to work on together as a 587 00:37:01,690 --> 00:37:05,290 Caucus and start preparing for a December vote. And if they don't, 588 00:37:05,290 --> 00:37:08,730 you give you a December vote, all hell is going to break loose. 589 00:37:09,050 --> 00:37:12,730 Well, I said on Meet the Press Now that the Democrats were 590 00:37:12,730 --> 00:37:16,170 never going to win this if the whole point was to 591 00:37:16,570 --> 00:37:19,970 extend, you know, the Affordable Care act. The point was to make sure the 592 00:37:19,970 --> 00:37:23,730 Republicans own healthcare. I mean, that's the point of 593 00:37:23,730 --> 00:37:27,210 the shutdown, was to make sure that the Republicans own 594 00:37:27,210 --> 00:37:31,050 healthcare. Because you know what, with what they did in the Big Beautiful Bill, those 595 00:37:31,050 --> 00:37:33,650 premiums are going to go up 596 00:37:34,690 --> 00:37:38,250 the area. I may disagree with you on a little bit, actually. I do disagree 597 00:37:38,250 --> 00:37:42,010 with you on when you say, look, pick another fight, take another fight, 598 00:37:42,010 --> 00:37:45,650 take go back and fight. We don't fight like he 599 00:37:45,650 --> 00:37:49,170 does. I've been in a couple scrapes, maybe more physical. 600 00:37:49,570 --> 00:37:52,770 I get that. Then literal. But 601 00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:57,300 we don't fight the way he fights. We wouldn't have 602 00:37:57,300 --> 00:38:01,020 shut off food to people that need food and then got on a 603 00:38:01,020 --> 00:38:04,820 plane and went and had a Gatsby party or whatever the hell he had. 604 00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:08,820 My point is this. You can debate other 605 00:38:08,820 --> 00:38:12,580 issues. Go ahead and do it all you want. I agree with it. But 606 00:38:12,580 --> 00:38:16,420 until you start fighting a little bit like Newsom does, you're not going 607 00:38:16,420 --> 00:38:20,240 to lay a lick on him. And he fights dirty. And 608 00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:23,960 the Democrats better learn how to fight dirty. I would say this. 609 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,840 The biggest disappointment is there aren't any ads running. Here 610 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,560 is a President who was willing to starve children to 611 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,080 basically take away health care from the poorest Americans. 612 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,280 I mean, you can't make that up. That is Marie 613 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,880 Antoinette. That is, you know, King GeorgeIII. 614 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,360 That is like, I'm going to do it because I'm going to do it. 615 00:38:46,810 --> 00:38:50,330 And I think that people need to be reminded now that it's over. 616 00:38:50,570 --> 00:38:54,090 The SNAP benefits are going to be there. The package they 617 00:38:54,090 --> 00:38:57,610 agreed to will prevent that from happening in January. 618 00:38:58,410 --> 00:39:01,970 But this is also a President who doesn't care about the law. He doesn't care 619 00:39:01,970 --> 00:39:05,450 what the law says. He got a district court opinion that said, 620 00:39:05,530 --> 00:39:09,210 hey, send all the money out. And when States 621 00:39:09,690 --> 00:39:13,510 obeyed with the district court opinion, he threatened the States 622 00:39:13,510 --> 00:39:16,430 who obeyed with the court opinion. I mean, that 623 00:39:17,150 --> 00:39:20,990 we are so bereft of the ability to take 624 00:39:21,230 --> 00:39:25,030 really bad behavior and message it to the public in a 625 00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:28,669 couple really good ads. And that's the thing that irritates me more than 626 00:39:28,669 --> 00:39:32,510 anything. Well, and I would argue that those ads would mean 627 00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:35,990 you're fighting that you're, you're, you're getting right up in his 628 00:39:35,990 --> 00:39:39,790 grill. And, you know, obviously there's people 629 00:39:39,790 --> 00:39:43,320 who disagree with me. You know, take the high road, show you're 630 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,520 classy, you know, do many of those things. 631 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,760 I just think when you're at a dogfight, you better bark. And, 632 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,960 you know, when you're cutting food off from people, when you're shutting airlines down, 633 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,760 when you're doing all those things that he could do, they sat in a room 634 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,920 and thought, how can we inflict pain? And if 635 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,720 we inflict pain, what we're going to do is we're going to get people 636 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:10,320 to come forth and make a deal. I'm 637 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,000 fine with getting it back open. It was always going to open this way. 638 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:18,040 I'm not fine if we don't get ready 639 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,520 and make sure that this ends up being their 640 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,040 responsibility when it comes to healthcare. If we let that 641 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,320 slide, if we let him sit there and go about 642 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,160 messaging in a way to where, look, that's 643 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,890 the Affordable Care Act's fault that it's been going up for how long. 644 00:40:36,530 --> 00:40:40,130 That's not our fault. If we let that be the 645 00:40:40,130 --> 00:40:43,970 message, then you know what? It's on us. It really 646 00:40:43,970 --> 00:40:47,450 is. Well, and the thing is that now the real work 647 00:40:47,450 --> 00:40:51,010 begins, which is to prepare for that December vote 648 00:40:51,170 --> 00:40:54,970 to figure out. And honest to God, if I hear one 649 00:40:54,970 --> 00:40:58,370 more Senator tell me, well, I'm doing 650 00:40:58,370 --> 00:41:02,040 TikToks, I said they don't want to hear from you. They want to hear from 651 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,440 people who are hurting. They want to hear from how does this affect 652 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,200 their lives? And you know, you basically 653 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,240 going to camera. That's not very persuasive. I'm sorry. 654 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:17,079 You know, I used to think that I had a great bully pulpit, 655 00:41:17,079 --> 00:41:20,080 too, until, you know, you run for reelection and don't win 656 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,560 because you haven't brought people along. And I think 657 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,490 that is the real challenge here and what I'm going to be 658 00:41:28,490 --> 00:41:31,410 watching for. Yeah, I guess we both are, Heidi. 659 00:41:35,090 --> 00:41:38,770 Hey, listen, thank you again for joining us on the Hot Dish brought to you 660 00:41:38,770 --> 00:41:42,490 by One Country Project, making sure the voices of the rest of 661 00:41:42,490 --> 00:41:45,910 us are heard in Washington. You bet. Learn more at 662 00:41:45,910 --> 00:41:49,610 onecountryproject.org. That's where you're going to see us. Learn 663 00:41:49,610 --> 00:41:53,180 a lot more at onecountryproject.org where we want 664 00:41:53,180 --> 00:41:56,860 to hear from you. We'll be back next week with more Hot 665 00:41:56,860 --> 00:41:59,100 dish comfort food for rural America.