[SPEAKER_00]: Given the societal pressures now, especially around the nuclear family and like a parent in parenthood is the BL end on how much pressure we put on parents to have their kids in all that activities and making sure they're doing all the homework and like being so involved, like almost the helicopter parent, like pressure cooker, if that makes more people feel like me like, oh, I thought it was supposed to be this all-encompassing fulfillment.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Fanning was to write the podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Ali Jackson, and I am bringing you my positive and practical approach to dating, relationships, and a lot of other stuff in life, built on my lived experiences.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm so grateful you are here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you to everybody who has contributed to this podcast over the years.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just really thankful, especially in this moment, as I'm prepping for the focus groups that we're going to be doing this month.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you are part of that, I really, really thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Emiles are going out in terms of scheduling this week.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I've just been so thankful reflecting on that in this past week as I read all of these applications for people who want to make this podcast better, who've been listening for a long time, a lot of you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I just, I can't thank you enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you are so inclined to leave a review on either Apple Pods or Spotify Spotify only has ratings not reviews, I would really appreciate that as well, but it's how advertisers and new listeners find the podcast and I don't mention it enough on here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I listen to a lot of pods and [SPEAKER_02]: most of them talk about leaving reviews and in every episode, and I really should, but I just don't.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is me doing that, and thank you, thank you so much.

[SPEAKER_02]: This has been a wild week.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am co-habitating.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am coming at you live from [SPEAKER_02]: recording the main pod.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's at work right now, so it kind of feels like I still live alone.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it has been a really great week, a really overwhelming week, mostly just because of the physical stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: He only had a one bedroom well more like an Alcoves Studio apartment and yet so much stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: more stuff than we realize what's going to be here.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're still figuring out where everything is going to go and what we're selling and donating and all that stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's been a lot but also so fun, like really fun designing where things are deciding rather where things are going to go.

[SPEAKER_02]: and buying new decor together and figuring out what furniture we want to buy, like all of that has been so fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: The thing that I really want to talk about this week though, I promised you and blow by blow of how things were going.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we had our first weekly stand-up, which is the silly little name that we are calling our weekly check-in, because we think it's funny because it's a corporate raise.

[SPEAKER_02]: But we had our first one.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do them on Friday as we talked about what day would be the best when we decided on Fridays because we thought that that would be the best like close to the following week.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that we you know have close enough to the following week that we have visibility of our calendar so we can like talk about that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But far enough in advance that we still have time to move things around or prep or like go grocery shopping over the weekend for the week that kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: We decided on Fridays also he's always worked from home on Fridays.

[SPEAKER_02]: He goes into the office at least once sometimes twice in three times, but usually not on Fridays.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that would be a good opportunity to have like a standing meeting every week.

[SPEAKER_02]: and just talk about what's to come and also talk about things that are working and things that we want to shift.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this week we put a few systems into place.

[SPEAKER_02]: The first of which is our meals and eating.

[SPEAKER_02]: This was something that I was wondering how it was going to work because we as a couple previous to living together did not do a very good job of planning for meals together.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like each, he and I would both kind of have our own lunches and stuff like I do prepackaged lunches.

[SPEAKER_02]: He would meal prep sometimes.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when we were together sometimes we would cook but more often than not we were either eating out or getting takeout.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is a very expensive way to go if we're going to be having so many more dinners together living together.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like we can't be doing that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So how do we want to set this up?

[SPEAKER_02]: So what we decide if we're going to do is we want, we decided we're going to alternate on who perhaps breakfast because we really want to do breakfast meal prep.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I love eating breakfast.

[SPEAKER_02]: He is not very good at eating breakfast, but he wants to.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're switching off week after week, when we're in town, we're not in town next week, but when we're in town, we're switching off.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this was my week.

[SPEAKER_02]: I prepped this overnight oaths for the week.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whoever's in charge of breakfast is in charge of the entire thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we've talked about the mental load before.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that person is in charge of putting the stuff that like deciding what they're going to make for their breakfast meal prep, putting that stuff on the shared grocery list, and then making the thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: to prep it for the week.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, depending on what it is, then, you know, each person if we're getting up at different times can have their overnight oats this week at different times.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, today he took us to the office.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had mine here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, they wait together.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that's how we're going to kind of switch off doing that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we also decided that we want to cook together one night a week.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're we're possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're using that weekly stand-up to decide like, okay, this week we cook together on Tuesday and the other person who's not doing breakfast is in charge of planning for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to cook together.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that person is in charge for planning for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So Skyline owned that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this week we did marinated hanger stakes or actually I think he ended up getting ribeye.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, with Chimichuri and rice and beans, and so he assigned me the parts that I was going to be making.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, I made all the sides, and but he was in charge of deciding what the meal was going to be, again, putting all the stuff for that meal on the shared grocery list, which right now we're using a, unshared note in our iPhones might move that to notion dbd.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so he was in charge of like putting all that stuff on the grocery list.

[SPEAKER_02]: owner, I suppose, of dinner, of shared cooking dinner.

[SPEAKER_02]: He was assigned with owning the tasks and the timing of all of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we were like, okay, we want eat at 730.

[SPEAKER_02]: So he started cooking and he marinated the steak from the morning and he made the chimichuri and all that stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then he said to me, like, okay, can you start the rice and you're going to do the rice that needs in the asparagus, the sides.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can you start that at 7?

[SPEAKER_02]: So like he owned all of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: sort of like meal prepping system, we eventually also want to have one meal that we prepped, like multiple servings that we prepped for lunches and stuff like that, but we're traveling a lot this month, so we have an implemented that yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in case any of y'all are kind of looking for [SPEAKER_02]: different meal planning things that you can do or ways that you can do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's how we've set it out.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like I said next week, right at town, but the week after that, it'll be his turn for breakfast and my turn for cooking.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, TPD, they tuned, and then the other thing we've at, we are doing in these weekly stand-ups is talking about things that are working, things that aren't working, things that we wanna, you know, the other person to improve upon, let's say, and so Skyline asked me this week, what am I doing that in OICU?

[SPEAKER_02]: And we talked, we then like used that as a springboard and something that I talked to him about that wasn't yet reaching a point of annoyance for me, but that I could see reaching that point was now that we live together like he's moved into my space right so we are reorganizing a lot of things, but there are still a lot of things that are in the places that I keep them or kept them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he doesn't necessarily know where that is, so like for example, he doesn't know where I keep the extra toilet paper necessarily or he doesn't know he might not know if he hasn't needed to go get that thing in my apartment before, because like using toilet paper as an example, I would be the one keeping that restocked as it is my place, so he might not know where the extra is are.

[SPEAKER_02]: I foresaw if he was constantly asking me where stuff is that that would eventually [SPEAKER_02]: And he hadn't done it too much, but I was like, I want to kind of nip this in the bud.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to be things that you don't know where they are.

[SPEAKER_02]: Fine.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're also going to be things on that list, though, that you probably could find pretty quickly if you just checked one place.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I want to get out ahead of, [SPEAKER_02]: It's easier to ask than to just look.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that's always the case, especially if I'm not right there.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing something or whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's something that he's really taken to heart.

[SPEAKER_02]: In the last week, again, we'll see, but I appreciate it that he's been making an effort to figure out on his own without asking.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I really appreciate that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like I said, it is, I think a lot of this stuff too is like, [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah, duh, he should do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, and we can still appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that was something that I said for him.

[SPEAKER_02]: An example of one of the things that he said for me is that, how did he put it?

[SPEAKER_02]: He goes, somehow they're seeming to be paper towels everywhere.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I first I didn't understand what he meant by that.

[SPEAKER_02]: What he meant is, is that I use paper towels, not napkins, I think a lot of millennials do, millennials killed the napkin.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I will like, I have like little tear off ones, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll rip off a paper towel, bring it over with me to eat lunch or whatever, not end up using it sometimes, and then it's still like on my side table.

[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, if I use it in its dirty, it's going in the trash.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I will often not end up using the napkin paper towel.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then somehow I've ended up with like four that are over on the side table that are clean, but like they're still there, but I kind of forget they're there and so I bring more I've never noticed this about myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: He pointed it out as something that bothers him Totally valid.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I've been working on that this week and he actually said it he said like I [SPEAKER_02]: was coming back from I had made lunch or breakfast or something that I remember and I like brought my clean unused napkin back with me and he was like, thank you for throwing away your paper towel.

[SPEAKER_02]: And again, this is something I should be doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is not.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not asking for a gold star, but I appreciate that he verbally appreciated it and I think that's something that I'm really taking away.

[SPEAKER_02]: in this first week of living together is that just because something is quote unquote the bare minimum or something that you think the other person should already be doing or should always be doing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is still great to acknowledge it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is still great to think them for it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like another example is because guideline goes to the office or into the city in general like leaves the apartment more than I do, he's in charge of now kind of like making returns [SPEAKER_02]: And we bought a cat litter box mat that was way too small.

[SPEAKER_02]: My bad way too small.

[SPEAKER_02]: I should have measured for herst for the litter box that we have, the fourth litter box that we have.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so we needed to return it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I had asked him if he could do that last night.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, do you mind like stopping by the UPS door on your way?

[SPEAKER_02]: Into the office tomorrow to return this cat mat.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he was like, yeah, sure, of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like in the guest bathroom, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Not a place that we normally go.

[SPEAKER_02]: I went into the guest bathroom this morning.

[SPEAKER_02]: I noticed it was gone, meaning he remembered to take it with him to the office to return it at the UPS door.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I thanked him for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I said, OK, thanks for remembering to bring the litter box mat.

[SPEAKER_02]: And again, that is something that, yeah, he said he was going to when he did it big up, but I want to be continuously appreciative of those things, because I think that that will be a very easy thing to slip later, like that could be something later, as I talk people who've lived with people for a long time, my mom included.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's those types of things that I think we start to take for granted down the road that like right now I'm like, oh, how lovely you remember to bring the litter box mat where it's like four years from now I might be like he better remember that litter box mat or I might not even notice that he remembered it and I want to be a little bit more proactive about being appreciative about those things and like trying to stay that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not about every little thing, but I want to try to stay that way and try to set that foundation up as one of appreciation in our relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's how our first week has been going.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are still surrounded by boxes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a little harder now because Skyland took the last two weeks of last week off.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this week we are, he's back in the office.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're kind of trying to work around that and I'm trying to do as much as I can while still maintaining my own job while he's not here.

[SPEAKER_02]: But things are going well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, like I said, I am committed to continuing to chronicle how things are going and different little things that come up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I did a good enough job as I wanted to of that in starting my relationship with him.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think because of a lot of times I would just feel like, oh, that thing was so small.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not worth mentioning.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like the thing about the Litterbox Matt, for example.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I actually think it's those moments that over time end up telling us better story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's not actually as much the big milestones, especially as you move forward in a relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: You just by nature are going to have fewer.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I want to really be cognizant of chronicling this time in our relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: And hopefully, you know, sort of reflecting for all of you what that experience of moving in with someone for the first time is really like.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I know that challenges more so than paper towels are going to come up.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm here navigating it and relaying it to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So hopefully, [SPEAKER_02]: And like I said, we are going on vacation next week, going on vacation with his family.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a vacation that they do every year.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to be meeting a lot more of his family than I've met previously.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really excited about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also just some relax and recharge time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not actually taking vacation for the week.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm still going to be working, but I've protected my time a little bit more.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm also doing some pre-recording this week for the pod, so I don't have to do as much recording while we're there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Unwine time with his family and just getting to know them a little bit more and some of them getting to know for the first time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's going to be really fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we're home for a few days and then we turn around and go on vacation with my family.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's going to be a family packed first several weeks of September, but we are looking forward to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And with that, shifting into our podcast topic of the week, this week we have a really, really wonderful and vulnerable listener story [SPEAKER_02]: this listener whose name is Sarah and she will be anonymous beyond that so there's no video for those of you who on the Patreon and usually see the video.

[SPEAKER_02]: She reached out to me after my episode with Kelty McGuire, the kids are child-free one and offered up her story for a future episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sarah is a mom.

[SPEAKER_02]: She has two kids who are elementary school age and she is divorced.

[SPEAKER_02]: So she's a single mom.

[SPEAKER_02]: She has a difficulty custody of her two kids [SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't really enjoy it.

[SPEAKER_02]: She doesn't enjoy being a mom and she has struggled with that over the years and struggled with not feeling like there's anybody out there talking about not enjoying parenthood and there's people talking about the struggles of parenthood but also coupled with but I love it so much and I feel so fulfilled by it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sarah wrote in and said that just hasn't been my experience and I wish I'd thought more critically about parenthood.

[SPEAKER_02]: If I could go back, I would probably make a different decision, though she does very much love her kids and wouldn't trade them in for the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to make that super clear.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I just really appreciate her reaching out so much because I think the reason that there isn't this conversation happening is because of the shame that could come with it, the judgment that could come with it, the misunderstanding.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I just, I think it's a really, really important conversation and not like I said, I'm really grateful to Sarah for sharing her story.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that even those of you who might not, who don't have kids or don't want kids or any of that, [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and on that note, this week's media mention is a content creator that I love.

[SPEAKER_02]: I really love her content.

[SPEAKER_02]: Her handle on Instagram is own it, babe.

[SPEAKER_02]: She has two kids and she makes a lot of content about motherhood, also just about her life and lifestyle and that kind of thing, but she makes really raw, honest, vulnerable content about motherhood and specifically about how she doesn't enjoy a lot of aspects of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like a video of hers that I remember really specifically.

[SPEAKER_02]: while still like loving her kids, again, major caveat, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: A video of hers that I remember really specifically is about how she doesn't really like to get down on the floor and play with her kids, like that's just not how she enjoys spending time with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for a long time, she felt a lot of shame about not enjoying playing until she realized that there are so many other ways she can connect with her kids that she does enjoy.

[SPEAKER_02]: So examples, this is a really recent video if you don't have to scroll back that far, but examples are she likes to bake with them, [SPEAKER_02]: decorate the porch for holidays, and it's okay that she's leaning into those activities and actually her kids really love them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she's struggled with postpartum depression and she talks really openly about that and it's just a different story than Sarah's in the sense that it's not, she's not saying I would have chosen differently, but it is a more, I think it's relatable to this conversation because it is a more honest representation of motherhood and [SPEAKER_02]: that then I've seen mostly in the mainstream.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure there are other as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you have any suggestions, please, please, I would love to see them and I'll post about them.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it is a more, I would say holistic view of motherhood that I don't think we see as often, especially from somebody admitting like their parts of this that I actively don't like.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's really brave.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's sharing very public relations, a lot of followers.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's really brave of her.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I really appreciate a lot of her content.

[SPEAKER_02]: particularly as somebody who's deciding whether or not she wants to have kids but also just as a human.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know somebody who can really resonate with somebody sharing something really hard and vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_02]: I really recommend her content.

[SPEAKER_02]: In general, I like her vibe and stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that is this week's media mention.

[SPEAKER_02]: Without further ado, let's get into Sarah and her story.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we are back with Sarah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Sarah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to Finding Mr.

Hight the Podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, Emily.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for being here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am so, so grateful for your vulnerability, your willingness to share.

[SPEAKER_02]: I need listeners a little bit of an intro in my updates portion about what we're here to talk about today.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you had reached out to me via our podcast form after hearing the kids are child free episode with Council McGuire.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love hearing that conversation about, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: things to think through and I come from this, I have two kids and I come from a place where, you know, I think I love my kids and I'm going to say that up top and I'll try not to repeat myself too much, but hopefully all of your listeners will hear me when I say I love my kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to get them in for the world, but looking back, I think I didn't think critically about having kids and I think if I were to go back and do it differently, I would probably choose to not have them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I thought that that was an important conversation that isn't really had.

[SPEAKER_02]: a thousand percent and i think i think it's so prevalent now like we talked about with county like it's so much more prevalent to hear people talking honestly about how parenthood is hard and specifically motherhood i would say more so in a really great way but they also always say but i wouldn't change anything or over i still love it and i [SPEAKER_00]: I hope I'm not that I hope that other people are feeling this way, but I would assume that I'm not the only person that feels this way where, obviously, again, I love my kids, but it is often not fulfilling and I hear friends talk about how much they love being a parent and how fulfilling they find it, and that's not how I feel, and I imagine other people feel that way too.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can still want to be the best mom I can be and be present and give my kids like a wonderful childhood but also feel kind of conflicted and sort of that I would maybe do things differently if I were to do it all over again.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think that's so, first of all, brave of you to say, and I think so important that distinction between the very great progression we've made towards like showing the real sides of motherhood, but the distinction between that and they're being a possibility that you might not love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or my wish you had made a different decision, or like if you could go back, you would make a different decision.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think to your point, that conversation isn't really one that's had much.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think probably because there really aren't any forums where somebody could feel judgment free in expressing that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, I really value the list of stories and sort of opportunities that you give folks to talk about these types of things.

[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe this is the conversation that's five years too soon, and other people will be talking about that, who knows?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I certainly know when I was a new mom, people weren't talking about how hard it was as much as they are today.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so maybe we'll get there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because your kids are a little bit older, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've got elementary school age.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so that you're right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think like I really, at least in my, [SPEAKER_02]: Perusal of social media, I'm probably not getting targeted with as much mom content as someone who doesn't have kids, but I get a decent amount, and I think maybe the last two or three years, it's really started to ramp up and yeah, to your point, maybe maybe five years from now, it'll be that conversation will continue to evolve to include the one that we're going to have today.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess let me tell you a little bit about sort of where I started.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would say I never thought critically about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was just sort of a foregone conclusion, and I didn't have a lot of models for people, my mom's a particular, but I would say you've been married couples, not having kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was just what everybody did.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I met my ex, we were together for a long time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't recall us ever even talking about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was just like, oh yeah, sure, [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I think we were we had dated for a while before like a number of years before we got engaged and everybody was like, oh, well, when are you going to get engaged when you're going to get married when you're going to have kids like all of that and then when we did have kids or what we did out get married.

[SPEAKER_00]: All of our friends were having getting married and having kids and it was just sort of like the relationship escalator like well, that's the next thing I don't recall us ever even really talking about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and that, that relationship escalator that you, that you mentioned is so real.

[SPEAKER_02]: Did you feel that that was the case?

[SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned that you didn't get engaged for a while.

[SPEAKER_02]: Was that unusual with your peer set in terms of like people who were dating or was it because you met kind of young?

[SPEAKER_00]: We met young.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's part of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was, you know, I say we got engaged around whenever one else was getting engaged, but we started dating before.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because even that, I remember in my late 20s and everything's in New York because like a little bit later, but even so like in my late 20s and I was had been dating someone for like a year and a half and all my friends were starting to talk about moving in and engagement and I was like, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and, you know, we'd been living together for a while before we got engaged, and so I remember, you know, we were planning the wedding and we started to talk about the win of win we would have kids, because he was a few years older than me, but it was always the win, not end, right, not an F, and it was win, you know, he wanted to have kids, I would say sooner, because he's a little older, he didn't want to be as he put it an old daddy would not have been an old dad, and he didn't want to be as he was worried about.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I was like, I wanted to be married for a bit before we did have kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like, I really don't remember talking about whether we were going to we didn't really talk about how many we wanted until after our first kid came along and like we certainly didn't talk about the realities of kids or like what that life would look like after kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: Did you think individually about what your expectations surrounding parenthood were?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I can't speak for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think you personally.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I, again, it was sort of a fort run conclusion.

[SPEAKER_00]: And my models were, you know, you just did, you did, and the moms did all the things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think for me, I took on a lot and did all the things.

[SPEAKER_00]: side would be easier.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think the thing that is very challenging about kids is you don't even if you both go into it and you've talked about everything, it's like a total shock to the system.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you can't really know what it will be like unless you've spent a ton of timer on kids, which I hadn't, and I would say particularly babies.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know what it's going to be like and I would say even if your partner thinks that they're going to be super involved like they also may not know how they're going to react to things and I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: he wanted to be more involved and he's a great and involved with them now that they're a little older but babies were like not his thing and like that put a lot of pressure on me too when I was also like I don't know if babies are my thing yeah you're like hold on you said babies were my thing right I did so but someone had to dig at it done [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and like I don't think even if we had talked about it more that that was something that we could have really prepared for because you don't you also don't know what kind of kid you're going to get.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have two kids and they're, they were very different babies.

[SPEAKER_00]: One was very difficult.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, had a lot of just bad sleeper, bad eater, just like all of those things and one was just way easier.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you know, you don't know what kind of kid you're going to get.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't know how to prepare for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: and you don't know how you're gonna react.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm, baby, it was, I never liked baby sitting, so maybe I should have assumed, but everybody always says, oh, with your kid, it's gonna be totally different.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, of course it is to some extent, but I think, I think on some level, I maybe could have predicted that I was not going to love the [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of this potentially do you think at least stems from the fact that you were a bit younger and like where you're at now, like I'm making a decision now, right, that like 38 and I know myself so much better.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's definitely part of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm picturing if I had gotten married around the same timeline that you did, I probably would have kids right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do think if you, if you whale it'll longer and you know yourself better, it's easier to make it informed decision of, yeah, and you've, and maybe you've even been able to spend more time around and see how your friends have adapted.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was one of the first in my friend group to have kids again everybody was talking about it and some of my friends were having trouble conceiving so then it was like, oh gosh, we got to get started and like again, oh my god, now that pressure's on you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would like to think that if I had waited longer, I maybe would have thought more about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I still feel like it was such a foregone conclusion in my mind that it really wasn't until I did it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then I was sort of like, oh, yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that was all for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: that's fully for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: In that foreground conclusion lens, did you think that a lot of that came from society?

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think a lot of it came from the family that you grew up in or kind of like what you saw around you?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like where do you think that stemmed from?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm being absolutely society.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm hopeful that we're getting better and the assumption is not [SPEAKER_00]: that women have to be moms, but I know that that is still out there that it's like, oh, we'll be expectation is that you're the mom, and you're like, we'll be a mom.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like, not almost.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is like, you have to explain why you don't want kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody ever asks, if a woman says I want kids, nobody asks why?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no critical thinking on that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, oh, sure, yeah, of course you do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Of course you do.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you say you don't, then it's like, well, why not?

[SPEAKER_00]: What's wrong with you?

[SPEAKER_00]: And the implication is that something's wrong with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I definitely, the models, I mean, I knew a lot of state home moms.

[SPEAKER_00]: My mom was a state home mom, like, [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted a career and like I wanted, but I wanted to do both and I think looking back, Tate is a strong word, but I really just liked, I really wanted to get back to work.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like both of my maternity leave.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, oh, itching.

[SPEAKER_00]: I need the adult interaction.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is not, I don't love this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I hear from friends that are like, oh, I just, I couldn't bear to drop them off.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I like, I wish that I could have stayed with them longer.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, no, that'd be.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot of friends who feel that way.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that's very normal.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that part is.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think the, and I think more people are talking about that now, but I think that was sort of the tip of like, well, yeah, maybe this isn't everything I thought it was going to be and like, maybe I didn't think about this.

[SPEAKER_00]: hard enough.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I hear from women who are, you know, in their like 30s or 40s that maybe are not partnered and hoping to have kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they always tell me that I'm lucky that I just went ahead and did that even though now.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm divorced and, you know, single parenting half the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, well, I get why you're saying that, but, you know, it's not always exactly how you think, because now I'm tied to this other person.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if I didn't have kids, I could have moved across the country.

[SPEAKER_00]: I could have, you know, completely uprooted my life if I felt like it, or at the very least never seen their dad again, but like, that's now I'm tied to him forever.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's a non-insignificant piece like that is a huge part of thinking about having kids that I think a lot of people, I know not like friends, friends, but I know of people that I've talked to in conversation social settings, et cetera, who are more focused on the having kids part than they are on the who it's going to be with part.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I hear that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, oh, I'm not an expert but that feeling is fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And because again, you know what they're going to be like.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you also hear horror stories about people trying to cope parent with somebody is not on the same page.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, thankfully, we're mostly on the same page.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, most things are worked out, but they're still friction there.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're still negotiating over schedules.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what activities the kids are going to do and all of these little things that you wouldn't necessarily [SPEAKER_00]: Think about if you're doing 50, 50 custody, but it all comes up and if that's what the wrong person who either wants to make your life difficult or isn't on the same page and with the same values like I can imagine how hard that would also be.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when would you say that you first started to feel like parenthood wasn't what you expected?

[SPEAKER_02]: Was it in that like maternity leave stage that early on?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think at that point, I think I just thought that, oh, I'm maybe just not a baby person.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I kept waiting for it to come.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, maybe I'm just not a baby person.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, maybe Tom LaHoods also really hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, you know, now that their elementary school age, like, there are lots of things that they can do themselves and there are these wonderful personalities.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, it's very fun to be around them, but I'm still like, oh, that's, [SPEAKER_00]: Not as, and maybe it was my mismatch of my expectations, but like, it's not as fulfilling as other people reflect back to me of like, oh, I just love hanging out with them on the weekends.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just cannot wait to do all of these things with them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, I don't, I want to do things with them, because I want to give them a wall around a childhood.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I have, there are obviously moments of joy, but it's, sure, yeah, it's not the, [SPEAKER_00]: I would say fulfillment, I think is the best word.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I can only keep saying that, but I think that that's the best word of what other people talk about of like, I cannot wait for these things.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it goes back to what you said about how even though even in stories where we hear moms in particular saying motherhood is so hard, there's this one creator who I follow who was talking to, who made a reference to how a day with her newborn felt like she was crawling through broken glass on her hands and knees.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it just made me laugh, she's really funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it always what I see is couples with and it is the most fulfilling thing I've ever done and I love it and I'm glad I did it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure there are some aspects of that that it's like social media rose color glasses, but I do think a lot of people feel that way.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think so too and I would imagine that there are other people that feel similarly to these words.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think it's required for you to be a good parent to you, for you to find it fulfilling.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I hope that you're modeling that, that even though it is not the most fulfilling thing and it's not maybe my life's work.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm modeling that I'm going to be the best parent that I can be, and I'm going to make sure that my kids feel treasured and have a wonderful childhood.

[SPEAKER_00]: but at the same time, this is maybe not my life's work.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is maybe not the main thing for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's okay, but I wish that there was more of a conversation around that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that point you made about feeling this way doesn't mean you're not a good parent.

[SPEAKER_02]: And doesn't mean that you don't want to be also a good parent.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that you're not going to like work your ass off to do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just, like you said, might not be the thing for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: But that doesn't mean you're not gonna work really hard at it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, who does?

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they'll hit college age and I'll be like, oh, man, I'm so glad.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, maybe seeing them as adults, it'll feel totally different.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll look back with my rose colored glasses and decide I feel differently about everything else.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But where I'm at now, it's not the be all-end-all.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my mom has told me that she likes me a lot more as an adult.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't, I mean, she's joking, but she's not.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I do wonder if...

[SPEAKER_00]: Given the societal pressures now, especially around the nuclear family and like, in parenthood is the BL end-on, how much pressure we put on parents to have their kids in all the activities and making sure they're doing all the homework and like being so involved, like almost the helicopter parent, like pressure cooker, if that makes...

[SPEAKER_00]: more people feel like me like oh I thought it was supposed to be this all encompassing fulfillment and it's not and I'm curious I've never actually had this conversation with my mom but I'm curious if there was less pressure.

[SPEAKER_00]: previously for it to be the be all-end all.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think there absolutely was like less pressure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, now I think there has never been more pressure on kids first of all, but also like on parents to be setting their kids up for as much success as possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, like, I do, um, alumni meet up and stuff for kids that go to my alma mater.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I talk to them about like people who want to get to my industry and things like that and these 18 19-year-old kids freshman softborns in college Our talk is people about the things that they've already done as 18 and 19-year-olds the internships they've had through research studies that they've done and I'm like, oh, I would not get into college today [SPEAKER_00]: Shit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's been it's a total pressure cooker, and I think that that I mean, it's not just on the kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: It extends to the parents of totally.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've got to be setting them up for success, and it's so hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I won't turn this into a whole like, you know, economic conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Totally at different topic, but like it feels down like if I don't do the right things right now, even though they're elementary school age.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, then they're not going to be set up for the right things to do in middle school and high school and then I'm going to get into the right colleges and like it already feels like that that it's just like, well, and can I opt out, can I opt out, can I?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's for like the low, the like low maintenance version of this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, there is one, I mean, there is obviously, but like it doesn't feel that way.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, it doesn't, and I think that that's also why it makes it so hard on parents.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I do wonder if some of people are.

[SPEAKER_00]: get into this cycle of like, well, but it's so fulfilling and it's more that they're trying to convince themselves of, it's so hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to talk about how it's so hard, but also I'm going to remind myself, but I love it and all of these things and it's like, [SPEAKER_00]: are you just, you're trying to make yourself believe that and say it enough times?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, maybe.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, walk on actual psychological thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: That like, if we do something like, there's the whole thing, this is a little bit different, but there's the whole thing about how if you do someone a favor, you then see that person more favorably, because in your brain, you're like, well, I did something nice for them, so I must like them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a similar psychological thing that can be a play.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I chose to do this really hard thing, and it's taking up so much of my time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course it must be fulfilling.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: What am I doing?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's probably part of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, now, post divorce, as I said, like, I'm...

[SPEAKER_00]: in this place I have my kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not moving anywhere like I and I love the place I live, but there definitely if I was totally, if I had no ties, I would bake some different choices.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's been interesting to sort of way back into dating.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, quickly learned if somebody says that they want kids, they want their own kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would imagine most of the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's probably people who are open to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is going to be making a stereotype, but I would imagine and also just based on conversations I've had in dating coaching.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think more women would be open to men with kids than the rumors.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's probably true.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then, you know, for people that are [SPEAKER_00]: say that they're open to kids, then I think that that's sort of their game for people that say they don't want kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, well, is that mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't want kids at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't want kids of your own.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you want kids in your life?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think there are just a lot more shades of gray in that when you have kids of your own that you have to wait through.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's like, well, you know, thinking through, [SPEAKER_00]: Well, how much do you want to be in their life?

[SPEAKER_00]: And how much do I feel comfortable having you in their lives and like, what is right for me?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's certainly not date five, but like, you know, down the road.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I got serious with someone like, could I imagine then moving into my house with my kids?

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: That would be a huge change for everybody.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's been interesting to sort of think through what are the things that I want now [SPEAKER_00]: sort of the things that I would like to have happen with what is right for my kids and sort of this sort of set up now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, going back to kind of working through this and you're like at the time marriage, we're you guys talking at all about how you were finding parenthood or how you work experiencing parenthood.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're talking about how hard it was.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think we were talking about how we can help each other.

[SPEAKER_02]: So what might that have looked like differently?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I don't want to get to.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were not great communicators.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I [SPEAKER_00]: ended up taking on a lot more of things and I don't think that, you know, emotional labor, like admin stuff, like all of those things and because he wasn't a baby person, a lot of things defaulted to me and but I don't think he saw it as much as I was doing and it was very hard for me to communicate right.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was very hard for me to communicate how much I was doing and why I was so exhausted.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that, I mean, that extended into toddler, like, you know, everybody talks about how difficult the baby phases and there are a lot of things that are difficult, but when you get into the toddler phase, there's still a lot of things, you know, like [SPEAKER_00]: getting them ready for daycare.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, I would just, with kids, there's just so many ancillary things of taking care of someone else, which should seem obvious, but I would say, and I don't want to stereotype all men, but I would say a lot of men, don't think about, oh, do they need clothes in a larger size?

[SPEAKER_00]: And our clothes packed for daycare or than they need to make sure in case they have a blowout.

[SPEAKER_00]: And do they have diapers at daycare or wherever?

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's the diaper bag pack, like they just, [SPEAKER_00]: I would say aren't trained necessarily to do that as naturally as a woman especially because of the way I leave works in our country and maternity leave is the default that they're the ones doing that day to day they get in the habit of doing it and unless you're lucky enough that your partner has a lot of paternity leave and can take that and be there in the trenches with you a lot of it ends up defaulting so the woman because she did it from the beginning.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And even places that offer good paternity leave, people that I've talked to and there has been, their spouses or partners, like it isn't always as taken.

[SPEAKER_02]: Men are not taking advantage of it in a way that it feels not socially acceptable within the workplace in a lot of places that I've seen.

[SPEAKER_00]: And often it's a lot shorter, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so if let's say you're lucky enough you get three months of even just FOMLA that a woman gets a man might get four weeks, maybe two weeks.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, so even if he's there, let's say at the beginning or at the end, he's not necessarily doing all the things because she's the expert.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's there the whole time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that, I would imagine is really difficult to explain when it's like, like you said, it's invisible labor a lot of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's not, it's not something you can really like write down everything of and like really explain it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I think for us, because [SPEAKER_00]: he was very much not a baby person and like had trouble with babies.

[SPEAKER_00]: I maybe falsely expected that like, oh well then when they're toddlers and they're moving around and they can actually talk like things will ease up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's never a good transition point to be like, okay, I'm not doing this anymore now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, so it's on you.

[SPEAKER_00]: No more babies, like grand.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's also gradual and day-to-day.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like I said, our communication wasn't great.

[SPEAKER_00]: more and like I would have to assign tasks to be get them done and then I'm managing all of those things and you know or I would say early on with both of my kids like around the year 18 month mark.

[SPEAKER_00]: at each of those stages for them, I left the job I was currently in because I was like, I can't manage all of the things.

[SPEAKER_00]: And with all of the kids stuff and all of that admin and then work on top of that, like I moved into roles that were less demanding or even just different.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I needed something different because I couldn't keep going with what I was doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like thankfully that worked out my career spine, [SPEAKER_02]: could have gone a different way.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was gonna ask, like, do you think that that impacted your career trajectory?

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's certainly impacted it, but do you think it like, in a way that you wish it had?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think, I mean, thankfully, I got lucky and everything has sort of come together, even though it was kind of a winding path, but awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: It certainly could have been a much worse situation.

[SPEAKER_00]: And even once they get into, there's just so many things, [SPEAKER_00]: I imagine people start to understand, you know, kids are in activities and you hear all of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like you hear this stuff on social media, the jokes about how many apps there are for school is like you look like they're not, it's not a joke.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are so many apps for schools, there's so many different platforms.

[SPEAKER_00]: and whoever filled out the form to begin with, usually the mom who read the kid is the default person who's getting the notifications and getting all the things and like even though we're divorced and we're both on all of the stuff somehow I'm still a facilitator to make sure that we're signed up for you know instrumental music and we're gonna play soccer and like all of the [SPEAKER_00]: You know, even it's your basically like the COO of the household, even now, even divorced.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would say I'm still COO of my kids' lives and the one that's making sure everything's happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's still, if I want things to be offloaded, it's assigning the task.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure that there are partners that [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my ex once is an active dad, he does a lot of things with them, like I give him all the credit for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's super involved and I think he is enjoying being a dad, especially to this elementary school age a lot, but I think even partners that really want to be involved, like, [SPEAKER_00]: You have to be so active and you have to have such good communication and you have to really have someone who is going to try to go above and beyond so that they can maybe just get to 50% because otherwise it's it's a lot of it just defaults to mom.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and we talked about this with Kelty, but like even even in the most equitable partnership, you're still going to have, like you said, whoever filled out the form, the school's going to call mom or this, you know, the doctor's going to defer to mom, like there's going to be so many places where even if your partner is doing literally everything they can do, society is going to look to mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, I have friends who have said, [SPEAKER_00]: like they will go to the school and say, do not call a mom, dad is that, dad is the one that is home or dad is that, you know, has the more flexible job you need to call that, they still call mom, like, it's like, and so that definitely contributes to sort of how I feel, like the overall societal pressure on moms and us being the default parent, regardless of how you set it up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, man, I would love to have a mom, [SPEAKER_00]: I would love to have a COO of my life.

[SPEAKER_02]: I afraid that would be fantastic.

[SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, I could just sit by your relax.

[SPEAKER_02]: I, one of my friends, visited her sister a couple of weeks ago for a week, and her sister has two kids around the same age, like elementary school, maybe middle school.

[SPEAKER_02]: My friend was texting me the whole time, being like, we're so busy, we're so busy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I have gotten one hour to sit in a week.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's crazy, the schedules and like you said, all the things you're struggling.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'm sure that there are people that love going to all the sports games, love going to the first day parties.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not great at talking to other parents.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, so it just makes me anxious.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in this room with all these people that they seem to maybe kind of know each other, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, feel comfortable in the social situations.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just like, how long do I have to stay?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that actually I was going to ask you about your, like you, Sarah, in this whole situation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like how have you felt like your personhood has evolved, like in becoming a mom and kind of that social aspect of it and now even, you know, with the shared custody.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, for me, getting divorced was a game changer in the best way because now I have 50% of my time free.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, that was...

[SPEAKER_00]: a huge opportunity for me to figure things out and I did take a lot of time to be like, you know, to do some soul searching that I never really did before kids or even before getting married, I was like, how do I wanna structure my life?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are certainly parameters like there are things that I can't hang in at change, but how do I wanna spend my time?

[SPEAKER_00]: How do I wanna, [SPEAKER_00]: If I don't have to pick up anybody, like, what does after work look like?

[SPEAKER_00]: What does this Saturday look like if I'm totally free?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I [SPEAKER_00]: I did a lot of thinking and reading and talking to people about that and trying things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, I spend a lot of time trying new things to figure out like, what do I even like?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because people do talk about especially moms, sort of losing themselves in parenthood.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that is absolutely true.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's hard if, like, in some ways I'm a proponent of divorce, 50, 50 because she's great.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have all this free time, like I don't know that I would have been able to do any of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even if I had, you know, the best partner who wanted to give me that space, like I would not have had the freedom to spend as much time figuring out how I wanted to spend, how to structure my life and like, what are the things that are important to me?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I wouldn't have gotten 100% at the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd also need to compromise and like figure out like now I'm the head of my own household.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I can decide how I want to, you know, I'm more control over how I want to spend my money.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the causes I want to support in the organizations I want to be involved in in the 50% of time that I have.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that gets lost a lot in conversation about that time to continue to do things that you want to do and also just it sounds like at least like the last time that you had that time for yourself was a long time ago and you're a totally different person now 10 years later, however long to figure out, okay, who am I now yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: young kids or considering this, I think, especially if you feel really good about sort of who you are and where you are and you feel like you've thought about this, I think you can end up in a very different place and for people that have young children like.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very hard with young children but carving out some standard time to do something that makes you feel like you not just the parent, but the you and it is it's so hard like I know for some folks if they're in the trenches, probably sounds impossible, but I do think even if it's just.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, an hour and a half a week that I'm going to go to this one exercise class a week because I love it or I'm going to go for a walk with a friend like having it weekly to remind yourself of the things that you care about is really important and I think has helped me find a better balance between parenthood and the rest of my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm laughing because most of my friends are married with kids still.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm more vocal and I think I've surprised some of them by voicing some of this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially when they're like, oh, I love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so fulfilling.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, that's great.

[SPEAKER_00]: That hasn't always been my experience or that's not how I feel about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I thankfully, I love my friends.

[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't gotten any negative reactions to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's mostly been curiosity and like good.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in some instances, I would say they identify it with about particular either parenting tasks or phases of their kids if they don't necessarily feel the same all the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so they're able to kind of be there with you in parts at least.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and I try not to scare off my friends that don't have kids that are thinking about it, I mean, like, oh, um, maybe you should think about that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that was me.

[SPEAKER_02]: My next question is like, if someone listening or maybe someone that you're talking to is on the fence about having kids, like, what, what mean take away?

[SPEAKER_02]: Would you want them to hear from your experience?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think, I mean, as much as you can, having conversations about, [SPEAKER_00]: What you want your life to look like with and without kids and if and when you dig into the with kids part like how are you going to make sure that both you and your partner have their own time.

[SPEAKER_00]: to feel like themselves and also time for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know everybody preaches the like time for you as a couple.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's important, but I think it's also the singular time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know the whole set up for this is like, I would probably not do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, if I were to go back in time and make different decisions, I don't think you can make a wrong choice.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you choose your choice, if you thought about it and you feel strongly about it, I don't...

[SPEAKER_00]: It's all phases of our life, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is a long phase.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not as short as some of the other phases, but you're not in the trenches forever and finding a way to balance the things that are harder or maybe less fulfilling with things that are fulfilling.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I think that's true about jobs and relationships and with all of the things, like making sure you're finding that balance.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's harder with kids, but I think if you're, [SPEAKER_00]: able to prioritize the things that you feel fulfillment from.

[SPEAKER_00]: as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: And balance that as much as you can.

[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter the choice that you make.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's such a good advice.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in the lead-in portion, I talked to the listeners about this account that I follow who actually does get really real about how she doesn't always like being a mom and it's extremely brave because it is so public.

[SPEAKER_02]: She also, she does talk obviously, she does the caveat about how she loves her kids and like she's glad that she did it and like she [SPEAKER_02]: but she talks a lot about what you're saying about like finding herself and also figuring out ways to be a great mom that also work for her because doing things that are more fulfilling to her in motherhood is going to make her a better mom.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And feeling like a fulfilled person and yeah, [SPEAKER_00]: I probably eventually will have this conversation with my kids when they're much older, of not explicitly the lack of fulfillment.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the parenthood isn't necessarily what you think it's going to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you need to really know yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: sort of communicate well with your partner to find the way through that whether you choose to have kids or not.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's good, just good relationship and advice and I would hope that I can these coach them to be a little think a little bit more critically about the happens that they're making to have a be an if and not just a when.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think we're getting there more and more as society too.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think conversations [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I hope this has been helpful for the listeners.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, so as a parting words, if there's a listener out there right now, I know that there are who maybe feels the way that you do in parenthood and is struggling with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: What would you say to them?

[SPEAKER_00]: I would say, I mean, you're not alone and I imagine that there are more of us out there than it feels like.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I think you can still be a great parent and still bring your kids a ton of joy and make them feel loved without it being the be all and all of your life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think just remembering that part, you know, my goal is [SPEAKER_00]: to make my kids feel loved and treasured and that doesn't have to be because I went above and beyond and planned a crazy birthday party and like, you know, created a scavenger hunter.

[SPEAKER_00]: Any of those like Instagram things, the Pinterest things that people do, like I can do that in ways that feel more sustainable to me and not burn myself out and you know, give, still give them a lovely childhood.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that, and I think it's so true.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as we were talking, I was thinking to myself, I don't know if she'll do it, but I want to ask my mom if she'll come on and talk about this because I think I don't think she would say that she would have made a different decision, but I do know for a fact that she does not feel like being a mom was her defining thing of her life.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I don't have the most people I don't think had been that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you know, I think [SPEAKER_02]: Especially hearing if she's willing to do that hearing from the other side of the like your kids are a grown and you can You have the full breadth and you can reflect on yeah, there are parts that they're really sucks Yeah, and she went and and from my perspective, she was a great mom and like that's and so yeah from the other side of me being like I'm fine Like she she was a great mom and I I know felt that way [SPEAKER_02]: So I just thank the more conversations like this we can have.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just I so appreciate you being so vulnerable and sharing this story because I think it is not talked about enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you again.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And for all the listeners, I'll talk to you next week.

[SPEAKER_02]: Bye.