Welcome to Deep Roots, the podcast from Oak Hill College, where we have conversations about theology and ministry.

My name's Jonny Reid.

I'm the director of engagement here at Oak Hill.

I'm also service and elder at Town Church Bicester and FIEC Church in Oxfordshire.

And it's my delight to have with me Reverend Dr.

Andrew Cowan.

I've given him his full title there, our new tutor in Greek and New Testament here at Oak Hill.

And we're chatting about a particular topic.

You've seen it.

You've clicked on this podcast.

You've probably read the title.

Why should we bother with biblical languages?

And you may be listening, going.

that you should bother with them and feeling a bit guilty because you've maybe not kept them going or a bit unsure.

Why should we bother with biblical languages?

Surely we don't need them because we've got translations today and we don't need them.

Here at Oak Hill, you'll hear it come across.

We're passionate about making biblical languages accessible to all who want to be able to take them, keeping people going with them as well.

So that's what we're going to talk about, why we should bother with biblical languages.

Andrew, thanks for joining us.

Let's ask you this first.

When did you first realize the value or maybe more than that, the beauty of studying for you Greek?

Yeah, I think for me that happened kind of organically.

Initially, it was just modeled really well by a pastor I had when I was in my teens who just really cared about getting into the Bible and thinking about it carefully and prized reading in the original languages as part of that process.

And that just seemed to me to have a great deal of integrity about it.

And the text just came alive when he preached.

I went then to study theology as an undergraduate and was forced to do biblical languages as part of that, although I was kind of looking forward to it because of that.

And it just, for me, the text kind of came alive in that process.

And all sorts of things that I just hadn't really thought about before started to kind of come in on me at that point.

We'll get to kind of talking a bit about, for others, why.

But particularly for you, how is studying the Bible in its original languages affected your own spiritual life?

Yeah, I mean, one of the big things is it just makes you slow down and think more carefully about the text.

Like you're looking often word by word.

You're just thinking, how does this fit together?

How does it make sense?

What does it mean?

So there's that side of things.

You just take more care and are getting into the details.

The other side of it is just you appreciate the kind of differences between where we are reading, in my case, English today and somebody in the first century reading Greek or earlier than that in Hebrew.

And the ways in which the languages are just so different.

So English kind of flattens out the differences even between genres, never mind languages.

And you get your Bible and just often it reads kind of the same.

But Greek and Hebrew are very different from each other.

It's a very kind of visceral experience at times reading in like Hebrew and Greek is such a kind of precise and technical thing.

It's just a very different experience.

And it kind of makes the text kind of sparkle with life as you read it.

As I said, we don't really know who's listening to this.

We trust that some people are listening to this, but they'll be coming with different backgrounds to this kind of question of biblical languages.

What are maybe some of the...

the common misconceptions you've come across when people are thinking about biblical languages and the study of them and the point of them and why do we do that today?

Yeah, I guess there are probably four things that come to mind that I suppose are related.

One is it's like maybe there's just too much time investment before you start to see fruit.

And is it worth taking that time to invest, to learn, to memorize all these paradigms and vocab and all that kind of stuff?

One is...

can you ever actually get proficient?

Like, is it impossible to reach that point?

Another is, well, there's so many good translations, good resources these days, so do you need it?

And then finally, some people, it's just a confidence thing.

It's, can I do this?

I just don't think I'm good at languages.

I've got a poor memory, that kind of thing.

Some combination of those factors tend to be what I come across.

Let's take this one by one briefly.

So give us that first one again.

So the first one, first misconception.

Is that it feels like it can take a long time before you start to see any fruit.

So persuade me otherwise.

Well, the answer to that and to all of those issues is kind of yes and no.

Because, yeah, it will take some time.

It will take some effort.

You won't be kind of reading, you know, fluently in a day or even a month or even a year.

But actually, you will start to pick things up quite early on, particularly if your teacher knows, if you're studying in a context where you have a teacher that is, you know, they know that that's why you want to learn, that you want to read scripture in the original language.

And they'll be trying, hopefully, to show you the value of it and show you where it can cash out.

And there are ways often that happens even quite early on in the study of Greek, in my case.

But, you know, it does take a bit of time.

And the question is, is that time investment worth it?

And I would argue that it is.

What was the second misconception then?

One is, well, can you ever actually get proficient?

Yeah.

So it's not just the time, but is it even possible?

Is that a question slightly because we're so far from the time when the original language was there, so it's just do we know enough to ever actually truly know?

Is it partly that?

Partly that, yeah, and partly just it feels like.

It's just such a long journey that people wonder, do you ever get to the end of it?

And again, the answer is, well, yes, I know, because it is a lifelong thing.

I anticipate that if the Lord spares me for another 20 or 30 years, I'll still be learning and hopefully improving.

And it does take a long time.

But actually, that doesn't mean that you're not growing and increasing in understanding and finding all sorts of ways in which it's helpful and encouraging.

bearing fruit in your devotional life, in your ministry, in all sorts of ways.

And you see that with the people, for example, you've run for a number of years and you've started up again at Oak Hill a weekly reading group and you've got a range of people in that group, don't you?

People who really have seen that and have kept it going and people who are kind of, I know I need to.

So you're seeing that differences, aren't you?

Yeah, and it is actually really encouraging when you think about where people start.

I think, you know, you start with no knowledge at all of the language.

Week one, you kind of are learning a new alphabet.

and learning to pronounce words that are unfamiliar to you.

By week two, you're kind of learning that the language has a whole system of cases to show how words function, that verbs encode the person doing the action in the ending.

It's an inflected language.

I mean, these are big things to try and get your head around.

But then you fast forward like a year or two years, and suddenly actually the things that stress you out in week one or two.

are not stressful at all and you've come a long way so you know you know you do make progress and you do learn things and when you see people in groups like that reading group um they're at different stages but you know they're able to read in this this case we're reading second timothy at the minute and you know this this group are by and large able to just read and translate those verses on spec and then talk about how they fit together and what they mean and it's really encouraging you know and so that third misconception was With modern day technology, digital tools, English translations, is it still worth the effort to study in the first hand?

That's right.

And there are probably two factors to think about there.

One is that, first of all, you need to know how to use the tools well.

And it's difficult to do that unless you have some grasp of how the languages work, what the tools are offering.

And actually, the more you know of the language, the more you can use the tools.

really fruitfully um so you might have a digital version of a really big greek lexicon for example a dictionary um unless you know something of the way the language works and the way word studies and lexicography works then you're just going to be looking at words and picking the one that you know you fits your sermon prep best or something like that um you're not really able to adjudicate between options um so that's just one example things like um you know study bibles or you know digital editions that let you kind of hover over words and get get meanings again you need to know what does it mean that this word is an aorist rather than imperfect why is that significant why has the author chosen that word here you don't get that just from being able to you know highlight the word so that's one thing um i said there were two things i can't not remember what the second one was but i'm sure it was very important What was that fourth misconception then?

Oh, just that people think I just can't do languages.

You know, I'm not naturally a linguist.

Which would be interesting because there's a number of our colleagues here at Oak Hill who teach languages.

I think particularly one of the guys doing Greek for 20 or so years, our principal generalist is Hebrew.

Both of them would say they are not natural linguists when you chat to them.

Yeah.

And you're now teaching it now.

So it seems that that seems to maybe that's false humility, but there seems to be a common.

A common thread.

Yeah.

And I would say that of myself as well.

Like I'm not a natural linguist.

I don't have a very good memory.

I have to work hard at that kind of thing.

I mean, maybe that's why in part we've ended up as teachers because we understand a little more the kind of grit that needs to go into it and want to help people who are in a similar position.

And that's often my answer as well.

Like if I can do it, anyone can.

And yeah, it involves some hard work.

It involves, you know, the support of a teacher.

And actually...

you know, friends and colleagues around you who can work.

We encourage our first year Greek students to get a study buddy and they learn things together.

They practice things together.

One of the blessings of being kind of on site in a kind of residential training context is that you can do that very easily.

And the reason why you couldn't do it over Zoom or something as well.

But yeah, anyone can do it.

And one of the things you can say to people is, well, you have learned the language.

So it's clear that that is possible for you.

People have different learning styles.

I think we need to be aware of that.

Some people learn more inductively.

Some people learn more by kind of grammar translation and more old -fashioned sense.

And we want to support people where they're coming from, I guess.

What would you say to somebody who...

It's probably more a question for me.

Are they in danger of knowing just enough Greek or Hebrew to be confident but wrong?

Yeah, I think there are in that...

You need to know how to use the tools responsibly and in a way that is going to help you understand the text and also be edifying for, say, a congregation if you're preaching or a Bible study group if you're leading.

So one is you don't want to give the impression that you're a kind of all -knowing guru and, you know, there's an elite class of people who know the languages.

And in a sense, you don't want, it should be very, very, very rare that you say anything close to the Greek says this.

in a sermon you want people to have confidence in the word of god in their language that they have in front of them um your hard work at the languages should you know impact like impact your sermon inform your reading of the text but not in a way that's going to you know discourage people in front of you the other thing is just being careful so if you know a little bit you can make connections that are maybe less helpful so one example is that the greek word for par is dunamis And it's one of the classic mistakes.

Sorry, for power.

Yeah.

Sorry, just to translate the Northern Irish accent for some people there.

It's important, yeah.

And one of the mistakes people can make is say, well, you know, that word is related to the word dynamite in English.

So therefore, when it comes up in the Greek New Testament, is this the explosive power of God or something like that?

And that's a kind of word fallacy.

It's reading the kind of what the word means in its...

derivation in our language back into the like yes they're related but it's wrong to kind of read the idea of dynamite back into par but it's the sort of thing that's easily done there's a good book that's it's getting a bit old now but it's still brilliant and worth reading called exegetical fallacies by don carson short book and it highlights a lot of these mistakes that we can make grammatical fallacies word study fallacies and many others It's sobering reading if you're a preacher or a teacher because you think, gosh, how many of these have I ticked off?

But actually we need to have the humility to face up to some of these things and then use tools like the languages carefully.

And if you know just enough to make those mistakes, then you need to at least know that those mistakes are a risk, I think.

So if you're a man or woman listening in who teaches in a variety of contexts, what is a bit of your approach?

well enough as you know very well obviously well enough is that like you say it should be very rare that you're standing up in front of the people you're speaking to saying hey by the way this is what the greek says but obviously at a key moment in your process you are doing that and that's that's to get you towards your understanding isn't it yeah yeah exactly and it would rarely come through in like a talk or a sermon or a study unless in some way you just really need to be transparent and show you're working to show people why you think the text is saying what it is so it's it's that's a kind of tool to be used very cautiously is to say oh the greek says this because they'll say well that's what you know just like be rare to say this translation i actually prefer this translation if it's not your normal church translation you've got to be quite careful how you do that yeah i mean even when you do that you could basically be saying well i could just choose my personal preference you know and i could make the bible say what i kind of prefer it to say rather than thinking well what what's the best way to kind of communicate that in a way that people reading in english will understand so it's why the work of bible translation is never going to go away i mean you think english has lots of translations but english is evolving and also our understanding of the languages is evolving as well Keep in some ways persuading the skeptic here.

Not skeptics too hard of a word, but help me see the beauty here.

Is there a particular example you've had in your own ministry or just your own personal life where you've gone, there's a passage where knowing the original language really changed or deepened your understanding or is maybe one you do with your students where you kind of, like you say, you want to get them excited early doors with this has real tangible benefit.

Where are you?

What are some examples of where you're going?

Yeah.

I could give one specific example in the text or maybe two examples in a text and then just some general, like a general list of kind of a grab bag of examples.

A grab bag, right.

But one, I think I've shared this with you before in another context, but Colossians 1, 28 and 29, Paul is writing and saying, we proclaim Christ, kind of warning and teaching everyone.

And it's a great kind of strapline for ministries and student ministries that I've been part of have used it in the past.

And Paul says, you know, we kind of are warning everyone, we're teaching everyone with all wisdom in order that we might present everyone perfect in Christ.

Now, that translation that I've given is roughly what the ESV has.

It has that word everyone three times.

The NIV tries to slightly smooth it out and says everyone twice.

And those are legitimate translations.

They're good translations, both of them.

But if you look at the text, what it actually says is kind of more literally or woodenly, every person.

pantheanthropon three times.

And Paul could have just said, like he could have just said everyone, but he says every person and he repeats that phrase three times.

And I think you're getting something of Paul's heart there.

Every individual, every individual, we're going to warn every individual, we're going to teach every individual, we're going to present every individual perfect.

And you get Paul's pastoral heart for the individual.

And you can say, well, you know, it's kind of there in the ESV and the NIV.

But it's just slightly obscured.

And it's even just little things like that, when Paul's heart comes through in choices that he's made, that I find really encouraging when you see them like, oh, wow, that's what he means.

So things like that.

There are other things like, you know, the kind of, we've all, I guess, had those doorstep conversations with Jehovah Witnesses.

He'll come and say, well.

They won't bring this up usually.

It's usually me who brings it up.

But the idea that Jesus is not God, but perhaps is divine in some way or something like that.

And they'll say, well, you know, look at your Bible.

In the Greek, it really says the word was a God in John 1.

And if you look at your Greek, theos enho logos, the word was a God.

I mean, that is what it says kind of literally.

But a little bit of study of Greek grammar and the way the kind of ordering of words works and the way the article kind of functions soon shows you that that actually is how you would say the word was God.

And that, you know, knowing the Greek helps you engage with those kinds of, I guess, not quite objections, but challenges that can come.

They tend not to come to my door anymore.

I don't know why.

Yeah, so I promised to a couple of specific examples and then some like a grab bag of general ones.

Yeah, a grab bag of favorites.

So, I mean, I was thinking about this.

I mean, there's so many ways the languages can benefit you that you might not even realize.

One is often in our Bibles, we'll see little footnotes that have text critical issues.

So some manuscripts say this, some manuscripts say that.

It's very difficult to have any kind of an opinion on.

the validity of those other readings and what they might mean, unless you have some grasp of the language and can kind of look at it yourself.

Otherwise, it's just an interesting footnote.

What do I do with that?

Or you might see a big bracketed bit at the end of Mark's gospel or in the middle of John that many manuscripts don't have this.

What do I do with that?

Yeah, you could read another book about it, but having the languages will help.

One thing, you miss some of the quirks.

There's a feature called solecism in Greek where a deliberate grammatical mistake.

And often writers in New Testament will kind of do that kind of thing to make a point.

And so one that I quite like is in Revelation where John is saying Jesus is the one who was, who is and is to come.

And he kind of expresses it in a way that is kind of grammatically incorrect, but it's the most kind of efficient way of saying.

You know, he is the, he was, he kind of puts an article with a verb that you just shouldn't really do, a kind of finite verb.

But it gets the point across really well.

And again, our translation will kind of obscure that and it just kind of brings it to life.

You'll often miss the relationship between cognate words.

So words that are from the same root.

So like words like it for us, righteousness, righteous, just, justice.

Those feel like two different word groups.

But in Greek, they're the same word group, the same mystery of like faith and belief.

And some translations will promise that they'll use the same words to translate the same words.

You can see that.

But in practice, they don't deliver.

So you have no way of being certain that that's what's going on unless you can look at it yourself.

So that's another example.

And, you know, just saying wordplay, which...

which, again, is something that kind of brings the text to life.

You think, well, why have they been so careful here?

Why does the writer of the Hebrews so often alliterate, chooses words that begin with the same letter or end with the same letter?

It helps you see structure.

It helps you appreciate the kind of care that the authors have taken and their personalities coming through.

All of which is not to kind of overemphasize the human author of the text against the divine author, but actually this is the way in which God and his sovereignty has worked to bring scripture together.

in this language, in this time for all of us.

As in it's helpful for somebody who's got a bit of a language background but neither in Greek or Hebrew.

I'm sitting here persuaded that there's a benefit, there's a help.

Maybe then as we kind of bring ourselves in a little bit, let's speak to a couple of different audiences.

Let's speak to...

Yeah, maybe people like me who have not done biblical language, who've done a bit of training, maybe done some theology here or there, who've not been able to do languages, haven't had the time to or haven't made the time to probably.

How could we start?

I think if you're listening at this stage, you're hopefully persuaded that you should do.

It would be a benefit of you if you could find some way to do it.

What is some advice you could give?

people who aren't going to come they're not going to come full -time to college or something necessarily there is a tools of the resources which can be really helpful is there advice you could give on how you could even just get started yes yeah i mean there are with with the caveat that i mean there's there's in some way the best way to do it is to be set aside for some time studying in a community that's just the best it's the best way to learn languages um and with the other caveat that you don't want it to kind of take you away from just reading the bible in the form that you have it already because um you know that that can be a danger as well um but yeah we in a sense we live in a kind of golden age of language acquisition so much work has been done in learning styles and how people learn languages and how they kind of grow in knowledge of them like we said already digital resources um are kind of unparalleled at the minute and what you will find on kind of youtube and things like that where you know there's so much if you if you're curious about greek and think that it's a sort of terrifying kind of dead language or something like that and meaning kind of new testament greek obviously um there's a great uh youtube channel called alpha with angela i think and it teaches greek new testament greek inductively just by kind of using objects and stories and cartoons and just you know it would be a very slow way to learn to read, but I think it makes it a lot less intimidating if you've never had any experience with that kind of thing.

You think, oh, this actually was a language that people spoke and interacted with each other.

It's not just a kind of code to get at words on a page.

I think that's really helpful.

But I mean, there are many, many books you could pick up.

There are Greek grammars that are designed for you to kind of work through.

on your own or with a friend or something like that there are places you can go the daily dose of greek um is a great resource that has support for ongoing reading just reading a verse of greek a day in a guided way it also has greek instruction videos and links to various other things so there are lots of resources out there um yeah there's almost too many to even think about no it's really helpful to speak to somebody who knows we'll make sure we put in the show notes some of those links just to guide people in some ways like you say there's i can go to youtube and google teach you biblical greek and there'll be there'll be many options and it's hard to know something will be really good and some of them won't be yeah where do i start and this person is teaching with this textbook and should i listen to that and do i want to do it on my own you know there's so many options and obviously i'm speaking here as the director of engagement at theological college i want to be encouraging people that if you're passionate about this come and study with experts and with teachers and with others that is i think we all kind of we know that is the best way to learn if that is a circumstance you can do it in.

But speak maybe then to somebody who's listening in, maybe they're a graduate here from Oak Hill or from somebody else and they're listening in, they're feeling, yeah, okay, I did it for three years, two years, whatever it is, but I've not managed to keep it going.

How would you...

Well, I think you have encouraged them to keep it going and to pick it back up again.

But is there particular things?

Is it the same things again?

Is it daily dose of Greek?

Is it find a reading group with others maybe?

Is there a number of those around?

Is it those kind of things?

Yeah, I mean, just getting going on something is going to be the most useful thing.

Part is overcoming that barrier of maybe a sense of pride that if I kind of admit how far back I've come, it's just going to be very difficult for me to get it going again.

And I might have to show some weakness to someone else, which we're not very good at typically.

But yeah, I mean, one of the best ways is a reading group because there's some accountability, there's relationship, there's, you know, you can sign up and do it with other people.

The Daily Dosa Greek I've mentioned, you can just sign up and they'll send you an email that just has a two minute video that will give you, you know, a verse a day.

And that's just a little bit of input that just helps you keep it going.

There are a couple of books of devotions from the Greek New Testament where you get a verse or a short passage and there's a...

page and a half that's usually in some way drawn from a grammatical observation but then makes a kind of devotional point you could you could pick up one of those and do that but just getting back into it's like you could if you're a pastor and you're preaching or teaching regularly then just make it your goal whatever sermon you're going to preach just try and work from you know take your passage read the first verse in the original language try to translate it even if it takes you it seems like an awful long time do the first verse every every week for a while do the first two verses and it will get faster over time but you have to get over that sense of you know this this is you know i feel like a beginner again i think you know yeah or it seems inefficient yeah yeah it feels like a bad use of time initially But you have to trust that actually the sooner you get going on it, the more fruit it will bear longer term.

And actually that fruit will probably come sooner than you think if you get stuck into it.

That's really helpful.

Now, you've come into our, where we record these with a couple of books, a couple of giant books and small books.

Tell us a bit about those.

How can they help us think this through?

I thought I'd bring these because this is...

This is one of the most intimidating -looking books.

That's huge.

As in, if you are not watching on YouTube, and you can watch these on YouTube, I'm going to say that's the size of four normal books.

It's 1 ,400 pages, roughly.

It's a good doorstop.

It's a very good doorstop, and this is about 100 years old, and this is a grammar of New Testament Greek, and it's a pretty advanced one.

This is like a reference grammar.

It's not one that you would ever work through in a class, really.

Really, really chunky.

And people think, well, all my worst fears are confirmed.

This is the kind of thing I'm going to be forced to look at.

But the guy who wrote this also wrote this little book, which is, I guess, 100 pages, so a lot shorter, called The Minister and His Greek New Testament.

And it's essentially this Greek grammarian's plea that people should use and keep their Greek in ministry.

And when I was flicking through it, it amazed me that most of his arguments and what he's saying, are not to do with kind of intense academic study.

They're all about preaching and the value of Greek for preaching and how you want the text to come alive for people, how you want to understand it, how rewarding it is for your own devotional life and for your congregation, for the people you're ministering among.

And you can sort of think somebody who would write a massive book like that isn't going to be interested in that kind of thing, and therefore they're not going to understand where I'm coming from, but actually his heart.

is um is in you know preaching to people and teaching people the gospel um and it i guess it's an encouragement that that's where we want to be and the languages can help us to do that they're not like a distraction from that rightly understood if somebody can write an intense 1400 page book like that can keep the main thing the main thing then we should be able to as well probably the final audience of i'm predicting might be listening is somebody who's They're listening to preaching week by week.

They're reading the Bible themselves.

Maybe feeling that languages themselves might not necessarily be something they're able to do right now, maybe in the future.

But is there a way for ordinary believers to cultivate this kind of love for the texture and nuance of scripture, even within translation?

Is there ways you'd recommend that?

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, just reading the Bible and thinking carefully about it are going to be the best ways to do that and paying attention to the differences in genre, paying attention to details, taking your time through the text, reading it slowly and prayerfully and using resources to help you get into that.

All sorts of resources to help you understand how to read different genres and think about them.

And it's not long before you see actually how the languages bear on that.

good study bible and there are many good study bibles out there you'll soon see in the notes that they'll say well this you know this word is also found over here and kind of means this and you'll see connections and word play all over the place and you'll start to see actually the richness of scripture in that sense and it's not you know knowledge of detail for the sake of knowledge it's not just so you can kind of have a lot of information it actually does help you to understand things and love the text and ultimately love the Lord more.

I mean, that's the goal at the end of the day.

It's not worship of the Bible itself, but of the Lord Jesus.

Great.

Just to close, well, to be fair, if somebody's got this far and they've listened to us so far, then it should be very clear.

But if you could summarise then that question right at the start, why is it worth bothering with biblical languages still?

If you could summarise that, what would be your one sentence plea if you were speaking to somebody who just kind of goes, Andrew, come on, it's not really worth it.

Well, ultimately, because the word of God is worth bothering with, God chose to give us his word in these languages.

We have very good translations.

Translations will always need to be revised.

They'll always be imperfect.

And we want to get as close to the word of God as we can.

James, our principal, describes reading Hebrew like versus the English like kissing your bride through a veil.

Or, you know, why not take the veil away, the translation away?

If that's an image that works for you, then great.

But, you know, we want to be in the word of God and God in his divine sovereignty chose to give us words in Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic.

Wonderful.

Andrew, thanks for sharing your wisdom with us.

As we kind of mentioned there, if you are listening in and you want to keep your Greek going, we do have the Greek reading group.

We'll find another time if we fill up on that and try and work out a way.

We have a couple of Hebrew and Greek refresher, kind of 26 hours of, I think we call them retreats.

They're probably quite intense, 26 hours of Greek and Hebrew.

Yeah, but a lot of fun as well, I think.

Here at Oak Hill, food, time together with others.

We're passionate, as we said, about biblical language.

And if you're thinking about studying, if you're thinking about future training for ministry.

We're really passionate.

We'd love to talk to you about biblical languages, about how we teach people.

We've talked about teaching people with different backgrounds and experiences, those maybe with additional needs, those who are coming with a lot of experience.

We're passionate about trying to help anybody who wants to understand and be able to read the biblical languages and make use of them.

So we'd love to talk to you about that.

But that's us for this week.

Thanks for joining us on Deep Roots.

Please do, as always, get in touch.

You can get in touch on social media.

You can get in touch via email to communications at oakhill .ac .uk.

If you've got any questions, topics you want us to cover, things you want us to talk about, any more questions for Andrew, maybe this has really sparked interest in bigger questions, deeper questions, we could ask a number of those as well.

But thanks for listening in.

Thanks for joining us.

And we'll see you again soon.