Welcome to Bon Jola, a podcast about two women, Aimee and Rebecca, who each move from the United States to Europe to become expats.

Aimee to Spain and Rebecca to France.

We're here to share the highs, the lows, and the logistics of this adventure.

Encourage you to follow your own, move abroad dreams, and remind you that you're not alone when the going gets tough.

Enjoy.

Bon Jola, Rebecca, can I just say that I have missed you in the like six or seven days?

I haven't seen you.

Well, that's actually really adorable because for people listening, they may not know that we got to spend a lot of human form time together because we did our Camino walk.

We did.

expect you to miss me afterwards.

Given that you got a healthy dose of Rebecca.

I.

I did.

I gotta see most sides of Rebecca.

do we wanna

I.

with the moods of the Camino or shall we give people an overview of what the heck it is?

Yeah, why don't we, why don't we get everyone up to speed and then we can talk about it from there.

Alright, well here's my, here's how I would describe the Camino.

The Camino is a very long pilgrimage walk that people have been doing for many hundreds of years.

It has many routes, so it's not just one path.

So Aimee and I took one of the paths, I believe, Aimee, that we were on the French route.

Yes, we did the last, the last 113 kilometers of the French route.

And that number is important because in order to get a fun certificate at the end from the church saying you did it, you

In Latin.

in Latin no less, you have to do at least a hundred kilometers and you have to do the final leg of whatever route you're on.

So we did.

Just over a hundred kilometers of the final leg of the French route, leading into Santiago de Compostela where there is a massive church just waiting cathedral.

I mean, it's not even worth it to call it a church.

It is this massive cathedral waiting to greet tired pilgrims.

Is that a pretty

Yeah,

summary?

I think that's a decent summary, although the pilgrimage has been going on.

So Alfonso ii, the King of Astoria was the first person to make the pilgrimage to confirm that the, that the tomb of St.

James the apostle was real.

That was more than a thousand years ago.

I believe'cause they discovered, they discovered his tomb sometime in the eight hundreds.

Some guy discovered it, you know, another one of those Catholic miracles of lights emanating from the ground.

So mysterious, they found the tomb.

The guy ran to the bishop.

The bishop was like WTF, and then ran back and confirmed it and then went and told the king of odious, which actually isn't odious is not the province where the.

That's Gia.

Um, but maybe Gia didn't have a king or something.

I don't know.

Or it wasn't its own province.

I don't know.

That bit of history is unknown to me.

And then King Alfonso, the second walked that first pilgrimage, which is known as the primitive route.

That was the, like the og G route confirmed it.

Word spread like wildfire.

People have been walking from all over.

Over Europe, like all over the Christian world to northern Spain to pay homage to what is believed, to be the remains of the Apostle James.

And what I didn't realize geographically before we started was how far West we would be.

So end part end point is right above Portugal,

Mm-hmm.

falling off the continent back into the Atlantic Ocean.

Um, you don't get all the way there unless you take this extra bit of the root to fiera, which I also realized means end of the earth ness era.

Dunno how I didn't put that together without being told by our guide.

Um, but it's really remote, which I really love that aspect.

Like, you're coming here just like all these people have for apparently a thousand years

Yeah.

specific.

Communal reason, and that felt really exciting to me.

So we had expectations.

How did it go, Aimee?

Better than expected.

I expected, um, pain and it was pretty minimal for me.

I expected blisters.

There were zero I.

Uh, I expected rain.

There was none.

I also expected heat.

There was none.

It was the most perfect weather, we could have hoped for because the rains that have been happening all spring stopped like a day or two before we started our route.

And then the day after we finished it, the temperature spiked up like 10 to 15 degrees.

So we were really damn lucky.

It was like walking inside.

Of a bubble, an impossible bubble in

Yeah,

everything.

The weather, our physicality, our bodies.

Not everybody on our, in our group was as lucky.

true.

We had several people who seemed to have picked up a pretty good virus on the flight over.

They were walking with pneumonia.

Yeah.

big shout out to our compatriots who didn't have as easy walk as we did, and a couple people got some of those serious blisters that you would

Yep.

Yeah.

I think Aimee would agree that don't feel like I got tested on the route.

I felt like I was given a gift on this walk.

Yeah.

I didn't feel tested either.

Um, which is amusing'cause I am.

In that regard, I'm a little disappointed.

Like I feel like, oh, I wish I had three to five more days to walk, so that way I could feel like I accomplished something, you know, which is this.

I guess that sort of reveals this layer of masochism that's inherent to my personality that I can't just be like, yay, that was easier than I thought.

How lucky am I?

But be like, gosh, I.

You know, don't people do this to like bleed and suffer?

Why am I not bleeding and suffering?

Yeah,

Oh, you know what?

That's probably That's probably the Catholic in me.

That's probably like Catholic DNA coming out.

If I didn't.

sounds like, it

It does, doesn't it?

I didn't realize that was still there.

It needs to be exercised

sounds like you have to do another walk.

evidently.

Yes.

But a huge shout out to Gabby, who was our Chief Experience Officer.

'cause we did a tour through G Adventures and she was there by our side, the whole trip, uh, hurting 16 people and keeping us all on track.

And

for Nima who.

except for one of our team, team members who did wander off, but much to my, oh, what do I wanna say?

I resisted the fact that she made us stop and she made us rest and I did not like it.

And I would say that several other group members had that same American mentality of wanting to push through and feel the pain, and because she showed us how to rest.

It was easier than it would've been if I had, I'd been left to my own devices and I feel like there's a lesson there that I'm supposed to embrace, but I'm still resisting it.

Oh, you're still resisting it.

That's funny.

'cause I've been sad that I don't have the, I.

Structure set in place for me to stop whatever's going on at like 11 o'clock and go out and sit at a cafe for 30 or 45 minutes and have a coffee and then, you know, do the two hour lunches, right?

Like that was just, it was so Spanish, but I loved it.

I absolutely loved it.

And I know too, like one of the reasons why it was so.

Um, why it wasn't as challenge?

I won't, I can't really say it was easy.

There was definitely, you know, my calves, my calves were tight.

There was one, one day where I was, feeling a lot of tightness and achiness in my calves and my feet, and I, I realized that was because I was being stingy with my electrolytes, which was stupid because I did bring enough for.

The trip, but I was being really stingy with them.

and you know, as soon as I started putting electrolytes in my water, it was totally fine.

But my impulse, you know, at the onset also would've been just walk 22 kilometers.

If you can walk 22 kilometers and if you need to rest to eat, do that.

Otherwise just eat the jerky and snacks in your bag and.

Hurry up and get there.

And one of the things that I really, really appreciate about Gabriela was that she set that expectation at the onset.

The very first day she was like, here's the deal, where we're going are are villages, some of them are towns.

There's not gonna be much to do, so don't rush to get there'cause there's nothing going on.

And it's not like if you get there early.

You can check into the hotel immediately.

'cause we couldn't do that till three.

Right.

So there's no benefit to rushing through it.

And setting that expectation immediately was so helpful for me to just be like, right, this is not a marathon that you've signed up for.

This isn't a race.

This is just a.

Experience that you get to have with your friend and 15 strangers that you know, many of whom became friends at the end of the week.

She did such an amazing job setting expectations, and it's something that I pay so such close attention to when I'm coaching because if as interior designers, if we don't set the right expectations, things just crash and burn so fast.

And one of the things Gabby did on like the very first day, she's like.

This place where we're staying in Madrid is a hotel on the road.

They are accommodations and she made'em sound like they were gonna be hovels, like I

Right

you know, be, be there with the cockroaches, whatever this meant.

I didn't know

squeaky twin beds with, you know, the springs poking in your back and

but it wasn't that at all.

They

no.

clean, they were very well tended.

I felt very safe.

I mean, you know, was it fancy?

but she, she did such a great job of making sure that our expectations were appropriate, that, that she ended up exceeding our expectations and it just eased the friction it every single step, and it allowed us, I mean, it allowed me to just kind of relax into the experience and

Yeah.

have to make it be something other than what it was.

And not having anything to do other than walk was so relaxing.

You did not look relaxed.

You looked like a caffeinated puppy in the toy section of Petco.

I mean.

that is my version of relaxed.

But yeah, you would think.

I was like a cartoon character.

I was

She totally was.

out there.

I, I mean, I was literally skipping on the trail and I would catch myself doing it and not realize I had started.

I.

Oh, funny.

Oh yeah, half the times you saw me doing that.

I would.

I would.

I just was doing it.

I was like a golden retriever out there.

because I was finally surrounded by forest and I

Yeah.

by forest since a long time, but partly because there was no on me, nothing.

I had to get there and do.

Except for that one class that I double booked myself for at the very end of the trail.

But even that was very much a giving over to the Camino, saying the wifi will be there or it won't.

I've done what I can do and letting Gabby know that I need it.

She has talked to the hotel.

There is literally nothing else I can do to control this, and I was able to let it go and it.

That's awesome.

And the hotel really went above and beyond to make sure that you could get connected to their wifi.

He ran an entire ethernet line, and of course I use a Mac computer, so they don't even have those ports, but they ran an entire ethernet line to our room in this medieval building where we were staying in the ground level.

So you could see the foundation walls were like two feet thick, where our windows were inserted.

And it was the old brick wall of the building that was the sides of our hotel room.

We had at least two places like that.

Yeah.

Oh, the intersection of history and, and just knowing how many people had walked in the places we were stepping.

You guys gotta do it.

If it's on your bucket list, you have to do this.

It is amazing.

And we cannot recommend our guide Gabriela, highly enough.

Truly.

I did not think, you know, my expectation, my thought was that our guide was going to show up at the end, you know, and make sure that we were checked in, take care of us, you know, make some recommendations for dinner, what have you.

Uh, but that we would be, you know, doing the Camino solo and, you know, she walked it with us and she walks with groups five times a year, which is both awesome and mind blowing.

I'm like, that's a great job.

That sounds incredible.

How do I get to be a guy doing that?

And also like, wow.

And she's so normal.

Yeah.

you know, you kind of picture like people are probably picturing some sort of like Iron Man triathlete or something.

She's just a human and, and

She is normal.

feel so accessible.

She does not look like she is a winner of the amazing race.

She's, she is not a gladiator.

Just a human.

She is just a fantastic.

Woman who is so friendly, so welcoming, so good at making sure everyone is okay and that their needs are met.

And for those in the group who resist anybody helping out and who are fiercely independent and reject help, she just gave zero F's about that and was like, well.

I'm gonna help you anyway.

Yeah.

And her sense of humor was fantastic.

Yeah.

Um, you know, one thing I wasn't sure about before we went on the trail was how social it would or wouldn't be,

Yeah.

You were worried about that.

I.

Well, aware of it because I'm not super into humans.

Um, I found that there were two aspects to being social.

One was the dynamics within our group, and the other was the dynamics with random humans walking on the trail.

would you like to speak to either of those social dynamics?

Yeah, the random humans on the trail, I.

I only had two interactions really with random people on the trail, which I'm kind of bummed about.

I would've liked to hear more stories, more experiences especially, but I, I will say like both people that I talked to on the trail had been on the trail for more than a month, had started in the Pyrenees.

one of them who is this?

Um.

He, he was a total boomer.

He was such a boomer.

And I say that because he was of the age where, you know, his glory days were the mad men days.

And so he talked to women a certain way, referred to women in a certain way that was antiquated.

And, um.

Because I'm of a certain RA age and not especially s flaky, I could kinda laugh it off and be like, oh, oh, you're okay.

I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dump you in like my grandfather cate, like grandfather category of like, you know, low key, well, not even really low key, but just sort of, you know.

Sort of

Objectification happening, but he was, you know, in his own way, in his own, in his own boomer way, he was super charming.

And he had been, he had been on the trails since, um, April 9th is when he started and got caught in a snowstorm in the French Pyrenees.

Wow.

Yeah.

And he was like, you know, I spent some time in Utah, so for me it wasn't really a big deal, but some people were super ill-equipped and unprepared to handle something like that.

And, and he had said how the, the people in that area when the snowstorm came were making like makeshift shelters for the pilgrims who got trapped in the snowstorm so that they could kind of shelter in place until, until things settled down and they could keep moving, but.

When we were walking, the temperatures were in in the seventies you know, Fahrenheit and I'm, you know, it's hard for me to think about that situation where you're crossing the Pyrenees and you have to be prepared for cold weather as well as hot weather on this trip.

And that's a lot to pack.

And some people do this without having their luggage transferred from.

Hotel to hotel or hostile to host carrying everything.

'cause

Yeah,

things that G Adventures did for us is our big bag was shuttled to our next hotel each night.

So we only had to carry a day pack.

right.

So, yeah, exactly.

I had a first aid kit, snacks and water on me, and that's all I carried.

But you know, if, if you're going to, to do this without that luxury, then.

Everything that you need, you need to carry on your back if you're going to be prepared.

Otherwise, you know, you can hope that you'll find it if you need it.

If something unexpected happens and there is a saying, you know, the, the, the Camino will provide.

But you do need to at least mentally prepare.

Pair for all four seasons, because all four seasons can happen to you on this trail,

Yeah.

If in, if you're doing it in spring.

Mm-hmm.

I'm my, the two stories that really struck me were not people that I met, but it was people in our group who met the couple that had been walking together since the Pyrenees.

They were in their

Yeah.

seventies.

And then another couple who were in their eighties, and I don't know how long they had been traveling, but I know that they did one of our one day legs and it took'em three days.

the stories like that reminded me that all things are possible.

You might have to change your pace or your expectations, that.

Everything is possible, and that's so exciting for me going into my fifties and, and remembering that you get to live your older years like you lived your younger years.

There's no end to the race.

You

Right.

to walk it a little slower.

Right, exactly.

I can't think of anyone state side who would, I mean, there are always exceptions, right?

But aside from individuals who have been active their entire adult life and strongly identify as an active person, most of our retirees who are.

Certainly above 70.

Don't even think it is.

It's not even on their scope of reality to do something like that.

And you know, and I think it is probably because we do have such a mentality of go big or go home.

And so most of us just go home, right?

But that couple, that 80-year-old couple, they were doing, three to five KA day.

They didn't have to go back to work.

So if it took them a month to walk a hundred kilometers, so be it.

That's how they were spending their time together and yeah, it's fantastic.

It's fantastic.

You know, speaking of the trail itself and, uh, the, the trail providing, there are a lot of towns, so I was actually surprised by how regularly we could access a bathroom.

That was actually really surprising to me.

the stretches, some of them can get a little bit long if you have an very active bladder, but was a lot more than I expected.

And then there's.

Such charming little surprises along the path, like bagpipers or people that will put a wax seal stamp in your little passport.

Yeah,

of your favorite moments like that?

I was surprised about the bagpipes.

I did not know that bagpipes made it down to Galicia and are in fact a gian music form.

Um, that was quite a surprise.

And, uh.

Yeah, the bagpipes are very encouraging when you're, when you're walking and then you're in the middle of the forest and all of a sudden you hear bagpipe music and it's like, wait a minute.

Oh, but that reminds me, do you remember that one gift shop where it was like eighties music and everybody was like dancing their way

Oh, that was fantastic.

That was great.

Yeah.

Little things like that to just kind of pep you up and, um, break through, you know, whatever zone or, or you know, if it's feeling monotonous and long to you, those things just kind of pull you out and, and get you back to the present and give you a nice, solid dose of dopamine to, to enjoy.

Um, speaking of doses, what about the food?

I was definitely, yeah, that's funny.

'cause by the end of it I was really happy not to have gian food, like all Spanish food.

It is simple.

Simply prepared without a lot of seasoning and so many potatoes.

So many potatoes.

And a surprising amount of octopus, which I

Yeah.

That didn't surprise me.

That didn't surprise me at all, but yeah.

Yeah, lots, lots of potatoes, lots of, there's lots of octopus available.

Scallops also on all the menus.

Um,

different from the how they are in the United States.

They

yes.

bright orange like appendage, which all scallops do.

But in the United States, that part is usually cut off and we're talking like post-it note orange.

The thing is bright orange next to that little white scallop and, um.

So yes, you can eat it in case you find yourself here.

That is edible.

It's part of the scallop.

It

Yep.

the scallop.

You don't have to freak out.

Do not have to freak out.

No.

Yeah.

Um, so the amusing thing is that when I got back to Jerome and got back into my kitchen, I.

All I've been wanting to do is use the ingredients from the foods that we were eating in Galicia, like I've been making tomato salads and putting some lentils in there.

Um, it's so funny.

Well, I'm delighted to hear you say that because I found the same thing like when we were on the Camino.

I'm like really looking forward to getting back to really flavorful, layered food.

ever since I've been back, I have been craving the tuna salad mixa, which is what I mostly had for lunches.

It's so simple.

It's so weird I can't explain it.

but I think it's so interesting that you had the same response.

yeah.

I'm putting my own spin on it.

Um, you know, I'm using spinach instead of leaf lettuce.

For the tomato salad.

But you know, I've started adding thinly sliced red onions to it and then I threw the lentils in'cause it's just a little bit too warm for a lentil soup.

so I added that into the salad and just put lemon juice and olive oil on it and a little salt and that's it.

And that's just not how I typically cook.

It's

So.

It is so weird and my kid is loving it.

Like, he's like, oh mom, this salad is great.

I'm like, cool,

Nice.

make it again.

Now, the one place where food was not simple, and was exquisite is in at the end place.

It's sent at, what's it called?

And Santiago, the compost.

Yeah.

So what she, what Gabby told us is that there are, I think 14 Michelin rated restaurants in I think two of which you guys all have to check my numbers and they'll change anyway, but I think two of which are in Santiago and those restaurants have raised the bar for all of the restaurants in Santiago.

Oh,

And so

missed this conversation.

well, with Damien being a chef and all, of course I'm always paying attention to where to eat.

We didn't eat at a Michelin restaurant for our final celebration dinner, but it was definitely a place where you can see that influence of chefs who really care about their craft and the scallops.

We had that night,

Oh, so good.

but that one was off the charts delicious

Yeah.

and still simple.

They didn't make the ingredients fussy, but they just, they did elevate them.

Mm So, okay, we talked about, oh, so what about the traveling with a group?

You had never taken a tour of any kind, as I recall, right?

So you

Yes,

a tour

the.

The Australian family was stunned that I had never done a group tour before.

They were like, what?

I was like, yeah, I just, I've never, never done that.

And, they had actually done a couple, I think, with G Adventures before and had always had a great experience.

So that was really good to hear that.

You know, what we ended up doing was, was not the outlier in terms of excellence, but.

Actually is something that could be expected if you do a tour with them.

yeah.

It was my first group tour.

I didn't really know what to expect and I didn't think, I didn't even think about it until Gabby had said at that celebration dinner at the end, that when she'd gotten the roster of everyone who was enrolled and she saw that there were 13 women in the group, that she was.

She was like, I better pray.

I better pray And I was like, oh my God.

That's right.

That's a lot of estrogen doing like a hard thing together.

It could be a total disaster.

And it was quite the opposite.

It was, it was fantastic and amazing and we were so good together as a group.

I think one of the big takeaways that I got from the Camino was remembering that.

That tribe of sisterhood that I've not experienced in a really long time, that when, gosh, when women come together and they're not trying to tear each other down, and they are self aware and self composed enough to recognize and deal with their own stuff when it comes up.

It's so, it's just so good and so nourishing to hang out with women who are in that place in life and who, who you can actually just be real with rather than play all the stupid petty little social games that we are coerced into playing because of, you know, society.

Um, I mean, I certainly haven't had an experience like that in a good 15 years.

So it's, you know, it's very uncommon and it was something that I never expected to experience again.

So it was really beautiful for me to remember that.

I guess remember that something like that can still happen, even though.

Everything is different about my life than it was, you know, when I experienced it before.

That's gorgeous.

And I think for me, part of why it worked so well is that a certain kind of person would self-select to do a trail like this.

You

Hmm.

a person who is willing to challenge themselves is willing to.

Be dirty and you know not.

Be preening themselves constantly, you know,'cause the trail's not built for that.

and so immediately I was attracted to these people.

And when you already kind of set the expectation that you have something in common, that's a great icebreaker.

I think it's why groups like Meetup can work so well because you're

Right.

together and walking a mountain with your golden retrievers.

Like you have something to break the ice, but.

I also kind of feel like it was part of that rosy otherworldly perfection that we experienced, that everybody just clicked.

It was part of that gift from the universe on this

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, okay,

Are there are, there are many opportunities on the Camino for things to go sideways and for, you know, people to behave badly, right?

even if you have that shared commonality going into it and that thing that can unite you.

When you're, well, for instance, when you're sick and you feel like crap and the inflammation has crossed the blood brain barrier and is affecting your mood, not everybody can possess the self-control, not to lash out at others, right.

Um, when you're.

When you don't get food when you need it, that can be a huge liability for some personalities that can impact other people.

And we all, you know, I think everybody had moments where they were really challenged, but, but everyone handled it.

It wasn't, they didn't put the responsibility to deal with it on somebody else.

They didn't deny that it was happening and lash out, right?

Like everyone stayed self-regulated and aware enough that no one else in the group was negatively affected if they were having a moment.

And those of us who knew this person was having a moment, I think by and large, we all kind of knew.

How much to check in, how much to pull away.

Like it was the communication and the energy bet within and between people, from my perception and my experience was very clear and easy to navigate.

And it was, it felt very sincere

Yeah.

and like there were no apologies.

Needed for whatever you were experiencing in the moment.

I remember.

Right.

We were walking past one of our compatriots and nude said something to her, she had her earbuds in, and she goes, you know, I'd like some time to myself.

it didn't feel like a rejection.

It just felt like a statement of fact.

And we all had been in that place.

And so giving that to the person asking for it easy, for that is a really big deal.

It's something we're not good at in our regular lives to be able to say, you know, what I need right now is X, Y, or z.

Yeah.

That was one of the gifts that I got on the trail as you watched me navigate what hunger actually looks like being on the trail.

Takes a lot of the variables away.

In my regular life, I've got a lot of different sources of potential stress.

Will I get my Visa?

Is my husband being exactly the way I want him to be?

all of these things, these emails that I need to answer.

And so when I get frustrated and cranky feeling, I can't always isolate what's going on

Yeah.

on the trail.

I.

There were only a few things going on, it was really easy to identify, oh, Rebecca, you're feeling, as we talked about a little stabby, a little murdery, maybe that's hunger.

And to reconnect with my body in a way that was free of all of the other inputs was really nice.

Yeah, I can see how like removing the layers of everything else in your life would really highlight that for you and allow you to get in touch with, with, with what your body needs.

I was just super excited to witness it all.

I was like, oh, look, look, look.

This is so great

Food is a positive thing to put in your face.

I don't feel you've ever not felt that.

You've just prioritized other things.

I've, no, it's been an up and down relationship with me for food.

Hmm.

I spent decades emotionally eating and, know, twice that made me gain 30 pounds over the course of three months.

And.

I.

I've worked really hard to separate my emotions from my eating, but there are times when I kind of take that, let that go too far and I'm like, oh, I must just be feeling feelings.

Uh,

out sometimes the feeling you're feeling is hunger, and that's what I hadn't had a moment to kind of

right.

That homicidal irritation is actually sometimes the hunger cue rather than a grumbling stomach.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So in the wrap up, I immediately left and

Mm-hmm.

Paris.

You had an extra day and then you went to Madrid and hung out with the boys.

How do you feel about your choices about how to end it and what advice would you

Mm-hmm.

I loved the extra day in Santiago.

That was really nice.

To meander a little bit to go into some of the shops for those who also stayed an extra day.

We, we had lunch together.

We, you know, same as the Camino, right?

We came together if we wanted to separate, we separated.

And I also had, a good long stretch in the afternoon completely by myself in the hotel room, which once I was sitting in this stone walled tomb of silence, I was like, oh yeah.

I needed that.

That's really good.

and you know, after about four or five hours I was like, okay, let's, I'm ready to see if anybody wants to do dinner.

Um, Madrid, going back to Madrid, summer showed up, you know, right after we finished the Camino.

So Madrid was in the nineties.

It's a big city.

There's not a lot of nature.

Didn't really need that.

Three days in Madrid, I was super ready.

The best part about Madrid was how ready I was to come back to Gerona and how just having that anticipation was really, really nice.

even in Santiago, as wonderful as Santiago is, I was like, yeah, it's not, it's not J it just doesn't, there's something about this.

Town of mine that has completely and utterly like just I'm godsmack.

I I love it here.

I, this feels like where I want to be.

That's beautiful.

Yeah, it's really nice.

And who, like, it's still such a crazy miracle that, we're, we did not research this town at all.

We just decided to come here because the school looked great and we're like, well, we'll figure out if the town is worthwhile or not.

Barcelona is close by, so, um, you know, it was just kind of knowing it wouldn't be as bad as.

Commuting from South Everett no matter what.

Um, and for those of you who aren't from the Seattle area, that's basically, having to get in the car and drive, you know, 20 minutes to do anything reasonable, or an hour or two, two hours to get into Seattle.

You know, I knew it wouldn't be that bad, but I just didn't think that it would be such a perfectly charming and wonderful place to be.

I'm glad you feel like you're.

Home again.

Yeah.

I think the biggest surprise for me on the trip was that it was very social.

Like even if we weren't engaging with people, people were always around and it's one of the things Gabby, I.

Asked of us is at least have a partner so that if you get lost, you don't freak out and you can be safe.

Um, so you're never ever alone on the Camino, which I think is a positive, but if you're looking for a really isolated permit experience, that's not where I would go looking to find it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think there were certainly people who were traveling the Camino alone and were,, just kind of.

Putting on their, I'm solo and I wanna stay that way, vibe as they were walking.

But yeah, certainly if you don't wanna be around any humans at all, a I don't, it's, it's way too popular a pilgrimage to, to take in that situation.

Particularly the closer that you get to, to Santiago where all of the routes meet.

'cause they're like five or six different routes.

through Europe, when they, they all converge then, then it gets crowded.

That said, it wasn't as crowded as I expected.

Agree, yes.

And I think, again, Gabby's expectation building, right?

She wanted to warn us, I guess, like we're all coming together.

I was expecting swarms of people

Yeah.

wasn't

Like concert, going to a concert kind of thing.

I thought that the plaza in front of Santiago would be filled with people.

Yeah, no, not at all.

And I did not go into the church, so I guess we should have you speak to that part too.

Yeah.

Like every great church built during Spanish Empire's, heights, it is glorious.

It's

Lots of, it's huge.

Yes, it's huge.

It's got, um.

There's a lot of gold on the altar.

I didn't, you know, there's an opportunity to like, go underneath the underneath, I think an, an altar and like hug a statue of St.

James or something.

I didn't do that'cause I was like, yeah, I'm not, I'm not feeling that yeah, didn't, didn't feel the need to do that.

I didn't stay for the pilgrims mass because I, that was when I was like, yeah, actually I just need to be, I need to go rest and lay down and be by myself.

So I left instead of doing the pilgrim mass.

we did tour the museum though.

Gabby took us on a tour of the museum.

Utterly fantastic.

Amazing.

and then I did a tower tour the following day.

I didn't realize.

That takes you up onto the roof of St.

James.

And so you can see these just wonderful views of the city and get a much closer look at the architectural work that goes into the cathedral from, you know, of the towers itself and just fantastic.

Highly recommend that.

So detailed.

I highly recommend that tour.

If you ever happen to be in the area, it is worth seeing the museum and the relics, throughout the ages that are, that they keep there.

And it's definitely worth taking.

The tower tour.

I also did the Portico tour, which is the old, the old facade that was the front of the cathedral and that was, you know, it was okay, but that didn't really, didn't really, um.

Excite me as much as the museum and the towers did.

So big picture, would you do it again?

Yeah.

Next week are you free?

I know I would too.

We are talking about, Damien and I talking about maybe doing the north route.

So that would

Nice.

on the

I.

of Spain, hitting a lot of the little seaside towns.

But if we do, it's gonna be at least a year.

'cause diving back into school for Damien and so

Right, right.

How long is that route?

I believe to do the whole route takes about a month.

Okay.

Yeah.

How long do you think you would, how long do you think you would go out.

I feel, so this was only six days of walking and a total of about 72 ish miles.

I would like to double that.

I

Yeah.

ready to do more than double, especially because was such perfect weather and perfect conditions that I think diving being like, oh, I could do a month of that.

It's not going to be that.

And

Yes.

careful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel, I feel like doubling it is, is about right for me as well.

I knew, I knew I could easily do three more days after we finished our six and, but five days seemed like the, the cha an additional five days seemed like the challenge that I think would intuitively, that I think would kind of give me that, that feeling of.

Um, accomplishment that, and also leave me more, more ready, more complete, like more emotionally complete.

But you know, as Shane says, it's like the best, the best amount of time to have an experience is one where you leave before you're ready to be, for it to be over.

Right.

And realize how much my golden retriever energy was actually wearing me out.

Upon returning to Paris, I did collapse and I.

Was like, and I, I had some things scheduled that I had to do socially,

Mm.

um, in French, and those were terrible choices that I made, which did lead to big old emotional crying moment, which I would like to partly blame on what I believe is perimenopause.

But I also may have just worn myself out.

Yeah, it could be both.

It could be both.

Yeah, I, you know, once Gabby wasn't by my side though, I forgot how to pace myself.

It's definitely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's so good at that.

Yeah, I think that would be, you know, for anyone who does do this, that would be a recommendation that I would have is after the Camino, don't just jump back into your normal life.

depending on how long you're out there, give yourself at least a couple of days to decompress in a relaxing environment.

Um.

Don't, don't rush onto the next thing because it's, there's a, there's a reintegration process I think that needs to happen after, after you finish something like that.

Yeah, whether or not this is a spiritual route or just a physical route, actually have little books about, you know, how to bring the Camino home.

So this isn't

Hmm.

only you and I are talking about.

It's did you discover and learn on the path, and then how do you integrate that into your life?

And if you don't, give yourself a moment.

To, to let things gel.

I think you, I think we missed the opportunity to the whole gift that was waiting for us,

Yeah.

um, and that for me, ironically, that gift was, Hey, Rebecca, you need time after these adventures, stop doing this to yourself.

Stop thinking that you can go from one marathon right into the next marathon.

You need recovery time.

There was a very perceptible change in you the minute we landed in Santiago and you were thinking about work.

There was a switch that happened and like, like it was just door shut, start round two or start the next thing, go and then, and you were done.

From what it looked like.

It was like, oh, you were done.

Okay, I've got this meeting tonight.

And then, and it was just work mode.

Boom.

And then you were gone.

Um, which was really interesting to see that because it was like a switch flipped.

Yeah, and I, you know, sometimes you, you have talked about disassociation when you're like, well, I'll just deal with that feeling separately.

Yeah.

know if that's what I am experiencing, but I definitely have mode and it's because I feel a strong sense of responsibility to my clients and my students.

Yeah.

To show up like 110%.

I don't think it's a bad thing.

don't like that I had to do it on the very final day of walking the Camino de Santiago, but I'm okay with it as well.

It's more the lesson of, well, actually, all right, really is when I saw that I had double booked myself, have taken the meeting off the calendar.

I didn't, because I have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility, like if I promise something and then unpro it, that somehow bad things will happen, and I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that I have enough to avoid this in the future.

But I am aware that I had choices and I made that choice.

that's good.

Yeah.

I think embracing it and owning it was part of my responsibility.

But the other part was once I embraced it and owned it, told Gabby that I needed wifi let it go.

And that's, I think maybe the part that I'm most proud of is that I didn't hold onto that stress

Right.

that worry during the five other days of walking.

And

Yeah.

accomplishment for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

'cause you very easily could have kept your mind in Santiago wondering what the wifi situation was going to be.

Yeah, and I'm really trying hard to live now.

Yeah.

Not yesterday, and I'm still working on that.

But being in Europe and being on the trail are both big helpers in this journey for me.

Oh, a hundred percent.

I mean, I, if you hadn't had.

This past year in France and, and dealing with the bureaucracy of trying to get something done in Europe,

Or just waiting for your lunch bill, like I was so mealtime.

Who am I?

right?

it in some of our compatriots, kind of the toe tapping, are we ever going to get out of here?

And I was just like, you gotta let that go.

Yeah.

This is Europe, my friend, and not only is this Europe, this is Spain where the ESA after lunch lasts twice as long as lunch itself.

Yep.

And I loved it, but

yeah.

my gosh, me a year ago would have been struggling.

Totally.

We've been talking about the Camino for a while.

Is there

Yes.

like to leave our listeners with today?

No, I don't think so.

I mean, just, um, if you've ever considered it, it's absolutely worth doing, I think.

It's a beautiful experience.

Yeah.

Yeah, I would encourage you, whatever the dream is, go put it on the calendar'cause it's worth pursuing.

And we'll put a link to the travel agency that we used, or the, the tour group that we used, as well as the website for our tour guide, Gabriela.

so that way if you want to reach out to either, it's available to you.

And there's so many things we didn't tell you, like what did we choose for our shoes and stuff like that.

So if you guys have any questions for us, you know, we're always, always, always inviting you to just drop us a message.

Happy to answer your questions.

Until next time folks ask the.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Banla.

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