Welcome to a pair of bookends, the book Club You Can Carry Anywhere.

I'm your host Hannah mat Donald and are we bookending the conversation with some of the most exciting voices from the bookish world.

Welcome to another episode in our debut Spotlight series, where we shine a light on the freshest authors and their work.

Today, that spotlight is on Viola v Andersan and her debut novel, The Dinner Party.

The Dinner Party is a confronting and propulsive novel that we'ves together, passed and present from a tense dinner party to the explosive events of that evening being picked apart between a woman and her therapist.

This is an unput downable read that is raw and intimate and in my opinion, perfect for fans of Conversations with Friends by Sally Rooney and Assembly by Natasha Brown.

Links to grab your copies or in the show notes.

Author of The Dinner Party, the elv Andersan is a writer based in the Netherlands.

She holds degrees in journalism, comparative literature and English literature from King's College, London.

A draft of her previous novel was longested in the twenty nineteen Miss Lexia Novel competition.

Author of the lamb Lucy Rose, describes Viella's debut as a profoundly confronting novel which consumed me whole tender, astonishing, and unflinching, and I couldn't agree more.

Here to chat all about it.

Welcome Viola to a pair of booke nds.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for coming on.

I'm so excited to chat to you all about your amazing novel.

But before we dive into you and your work, I would love to ask what you're currently reading.

So I just finished, literally finished All Fools by Miranda July.

What did you think?

I loved it.

I remember reading her previous novel a while back, I think when I just started writing longer fiction, and I was very impressed, kind of yeah, inspired, but also felt very small when I read her first novel.

I haven't read her first novel, but yeah, I must get to.

Is it got the first the first bad man?

Or that might be a story?

Oh?

Is that one?

Okay?

Yeah?

Yeah, so that kind of for me was like the beginning of my writing career.

I love that she's She's amazing.

I mean her writing is it's just such a unique style, and I think she's just so funny as well.

And it just felt like a complete rollercoaster reading.

What I loved about Old Force was that it seemingly starts with a very simple premise and then it just gets completely not really out of hand, but it grows into something very unexpected.

Just more and more chaotic.

Yeah, and kind of sort of absurd, but also makes you question.

How to live your life.

And yeah, anyway you want to do that, it's fine, even if it looks like you know something nobody else around you has ever done.

Yeah, it's still a very valid way of living your life.

I love that it's about all work.

Yeah, absolutely.

I remember reading it and I often think about, you know, we're speaking before about me being an actor, so I'm always thinking about, you know, books being adapted and how great things would look on screen.

But I kept thinking when I was reading All Fours, how great it would be as a theater piece.

I just thought like, oh my gosh, it would be so I think you just be on the edge of your seat and I would want her to play that.

I just think it's amazing.

So, yeah, that is a great recommendation.

Now, I would love to chat to you about your novel, that is what you're here to do.

But I also love to chat to debut authors about their journey as a debut author and how you know this book has made its way out into the world, because it's not It's not easy, is it.

No, And it takes a long time for me at least.

I heard people saying, you know, they wrote their first novel and they got the agent, they got the publisher, they got the big success, you know, at least in sales numbers.

I guess, yeah, but no, it took It took a little while longer for me for sure.

So there was a previous novel before this one that didn't make it out, is that right?

Yeah?

Yeah, I've started.

I started writing in July twenty fourteen, I remember, and I think to Dinner Party is my fourth novel.

Oh wow, yeah, And all the others haven't gone, you know, have gone unpublished, so to say.

I think the first one, are they.

Books that are sitting in a drawer and you might return to them or are you kind of done with those now?

The first one very much done because I wrote that in like a month at least the first draft, just to get myself over that hurdle of daring to imagine that, you know, my words can be of any interest to anyone.

So that was felt like a big step for me.

Yeah, and I think it is for many women in particular.

Yeah, female writers that you know, just daring to imagine that you can have this kind of life and your opinions, your words, your imagination is of value to someone else.

That felt like a big step.

So I wrote that first draft in thirty days and it was really bad.

And I've learned a lot since then, so I wouldn't like I like the idea of that very first one, but no, but the other two or three, yeah, I very much go back to them and redo them, improve them.

Well, I'm ready for more of your words, So.

Thank you very much.

No, I absolutely loved the Dinner Party, and I'm so glad that it's made its way out into the world.

And by the time this episode comes out, it will be out in the UK and the US, which is so exciting.

Do you think that you had ever imagined getting to this point, I dare to hope.

Yeah.

But for me, I kind of grew up in an environment books and literature and art in general didn't really play a big part of daily life.

And I had a lot of support from my parents and from my mentor, Jill Dawson, who I'm sure I'm mentioning again because she's brilliant.

But so I had lots of support.

But you know, it wasn't really seen wanting to be a writer wasn't seen as an adult pursuit, an adult dream, like were seen as a kind of child.

There's things you want to do.

It's amazing that you have support, and you know, I certainly have a supportive family, but my family don't really understand what it is that I do.

They don't because none of them are creative, so it's very kind of a foreign world to them.

And I think it's really difficult when, yes, you might have people that are being very supportive, but when they don't have that understanding, there's no kind of you know, it's not as easy as somebody that might have a family that have those kind of connections, which incredibly useful.

But yeah, I am glad that you kept going.

What would you say is the thing that kepts you going?

You know through the rejections.

For me, it was I used to speak about this like an inner conviction to kind of decide, at least now, the conviction that wanting to be a writer is a valid pursuit.

And I believe that, and I.

Always believe that, but somehow, you know, I mean, there's still days where I don't feel confident about my writing and I'm not sure what I'm doing.

And I think that's fine, you know.

I think we'll have that at some point or many many different points in our lives.

But I did decide.

I decided, not just believed it, but I decided that this was worthwhile, and that's a vital difference for me, even if I didn't feel it, Like you're pursuing the arts, and for me, being a writer is a valid and credible thing to do.

And getting published, for sure, that's kind of the outer layer of success, you know, because I get money now and no one has.

To catch me anymore.

But just the fact actor, you know, I know that this is a valid thing to do, even if I sometimes feel very badly I'm unsure about it, And just making that decision every time that's very helpful.

Yeah, very easy sometimes, but yeah, it's a decision.

This is a valid, incredible way to live my life, even if not many people around me are doing the same thing.

It's okay.

Yeah, I think a lot of writers listening will be needing to hear that, because, you know, when you're not making money in your creative career, it's very easy to kind of talk yourself out of it and go, oh, but I should probably do the responsible thing that's gonna you know, help me buy a house, or help me to achieve X y Z.

You know, it's you know, we really do.

A lot of us do equate in modern society wealth with success, and that's not always the case, and I think it's extra difficult for creatives.

But you have produced this book and it is out in the world now, which is so exciting and I'd really love to get into it.

It is told from the perspective of Franka, a woman who is sort of feeling quite lost at this point in her life.

You know, there's a lot of things that she's been through that she's kind of not processed yet, and I think that's preventing her from moving forward.

Let's say, I think in some ways she's maybe slightly become detached from reality.

But where did Franka come from?

I think some themes in her life are similar to mine, thankfully not her story so but definitely I think this is a book about about four young women in the same position as Franka is, which is a young women stepping into themselves, not needing to be caught or rescued, and going through that kind of transition where, you know, the kind of transition from a child into a person of their own right, no matter how they want to do that.

Yeah, and she is a brilliant character.

And in this novel, you go between and as I said in the intro, you go between conversations between Franka and her therapist Stella and the events of a dinner party that Stella is encouraging Franka to write about and to kind of come to terms with what happened.

What is it about a relationship between a person and a therapist that you were so eager to explore.

I think it's one of the only kinds of relationships you can have where it really pays off to be entirely honest.

I mean, I know that you're supposed to do that, and you know, on certain levels we all try to be honest with the people we love, but especially a therapist put it all out there, otherwise it won't work.

So it feels very exciting to me to put in conversations with a therapist because also the thing about therapists is that they never answer questions directly.

Is this asking more questions and that's kind of delicious, right, Yeah, yeah it is.

And I think because it's such an interesting dynamic, isn't it, because they know so much about you but you know next to nothing about that.

Yeah, yeah, it was.

It was kind of tricky because I think that often in movies on TV, especially, conversations with the therapists are kind of made to explain and to lay out and just to tell instead of show, you know, yeah, so's there's kind of that.

I didn't want them to do that.

Yeah.

I didn't want to just explain and let someone else explain to her what she's feeling, what she's going through, or explain to the reader or even what's happening, because I feel that's often a thing and TV and in movies.

Yeah, definitely.

I found it really interested in the book that there are these incredibly graphic scenes that are kind of moments where as the reader we're unsure if what's happening is actually happening.

And I think even Franka for herself at times is quite taken aback by these moments and feels like something's happened, but it's not necessarily happened.

And I was really curious about, you know what, interested you in these sort of blurred lines that she has with memory but also with the reality that she's currently living through.

I like that the lines are blurred and she can't tell the difference.

I try to, I try to give some kind of resolution to the reader fairly quickly, not immediately, but fairly quickly.

Yeah.

So it's not justicking.

Yeah, I think what's what she's going through is the body keeps the score.

Yes, so there's certain trauma and memories and experiences, especially early in life, but also at the beginning of that dinner party, of that evening that can't be pushed away or kept down, like it sort of gets stored in the body and it comes out at very inconvenient moments in very you know, very different ways, like and I think for her it's a lot of anger, a lot of anxiety, of course, but also a lot of anger that's finally allowed to come out.

Yeah, yeah, definitely, I do want to return to some of the things that we've just spoken about.

We've got to be very careful here with not giving any spoilers.

But one thing that I want to ask about is there is a cat that often features in the book.

And this cat, you know, lives in the house with Franka and her partner Andrew, and Frank's feeling you know, a lot of kind of maybe resentment or irritation towards the cat.

It's always sort of in the way.

And I'd love to know what you felt that the cat represents.

For me.

The cat is Andrew's expectations and the kind of life he's not really forced, sort of forced Franka into.

So it's a very gendered role and gendered.

Life she's having, And the cat kind of represents that Andrew bought the cat for Franka without telling her, you know, just to keep her busy somehow.

Like, yeah, feels very very toxic to me.

It's not the cat's full don't worry about you know, there's nothing wrong with cats in general.

No, I was holding my cats close whilst reading this one.

It's not really about the cats.

Yeah, yeah, it's not.

No, But Andrew is a really interesting character because he is more than what meets the eye.

And I think, you know, you might at times think that they've got this very kind of loving relationship, but then you kind of look a bit deeper and you're like, what is it though?

And I think that's another thing about blurred lines that is really interesting to me.

You know, you might see something like him buying her address, let's say, as a thoughtful act, but then you look a bit deeper and you go, but is there an element of control within that act?

Could you tell us a little bit about developing Andrew's character in their dynamic?

Yeah, I didn't want to.

I didn't want to write villains.

Yeah, I don't believe in in them in general.

There are exceptions, for sure, let's not start.

But yeah, so Andrew for me is both charm and horror.

And I think, you know, the example you gave about the dress, I think it can be both.

And I know that's a boring answer, but I believe it's both.

You know, it's a nice gesture, it's kind of controlling, and that's not by far the most problematic thing he does.

But yeah, it's just another example of and I did try to put that into all my characters.

Also in Francas, he's not all good or all bad.

None of them are, you know, I don't believe any real people are all bad.

And it kind of ties into the theme of sexual assault, which is a big theme in the book, and it happens fairly early in the novel.

And these are also blood lines.

Yeah, and you know, I was very conscious of doing that because I, well, first of all, it's I don't think it's helpful.

I think it's very problematic to discuss sexual assault in a detailed way.

Yeah, there's no, you know, no value to that for me.

And also because because it's never entirely clear what really happens and what didn't, it kind of at least it made me think, like what counts and what doesn't count as sexual assault?

And you know who says what counts and who decides that is that Andrews that Franka is that the therapist Stella, Like who gets to say and who knows?

Well.

I was really reluctant to bring that up because I was worried that I was going to spoil something by saying that.

But I think you've spoken about it in the perfect way because you've not really spoilt it.

There, and I think it is such an important theme in the book that it's really hard to discuss this book without mentioning, you know, that trauma and the affect that it has on a person.

I think it's a really important topic to speak about.

And I think, as you were saying earlier, you know, the body keeps the score.

It's you know, our body holds on too, certain things that happen.

And I think it's so interesting to read about this person that's been through an experience and is kind of navigating, oh what did that mean and kind of not being able to share that with somebody or being on shore, and I just think it's it was really fascinating to read about that.

And there is a moment much much later in the book.

I think it's actually right at the end where you write about how those things are represented on screen and how there's a very it's always very telling when a man has written about these things, because it's always represented in a specific kind of way, and that the only way that a woman could possibly deal with that type of trauma is by reacting with rage or violence, and actually that's not a universal reaction to that acts.

Could you tell us a little bit about that we're going to have to be carefully spoilers.

But yeah, this is very annoying to me that you see in so many I don't know about books, but at least for sure in TV and movies definitely that a woman gets raped and she kills her rapist and that makes it all right somehow, like that solves the problem, which is absurd.

It's absurd to me.

And while I wrote that section, I was very much influenced by Hermione Lee's biography of Virginia Wolf, especially the section in which she deals with the speculation.

Let's say that she was abused by her half brothers, so by family members, and we don't really know what happened, and it's a very long time ago, and the accounts are murky of course, and Hermione Lee at one point says, you know, it doesn't really matter what happened.

What matters is what she, Virginia Wolf, herself made of that, Howard influenced her life, how it affected her, and that's what the trying.

Yeah, when I'm trying to say it doesn't to put it bluntly, it doesn't matter who put what we're like, what we talked about earlier, what counts and what doesn't, and who gets to determine that it doesn't matter to me at least who put what we're How does it affect your life?

Yeah, definitely.

And I think you write about something that is incredibly traumatic, you write about it in a really thoughtful and considerate way, and I really like that you weren't.

There are scenes in the book that are incredibly graphic, but that to me didn't necessarily feel as graphic, if that makes sense.

Yes, we understand what is happening, but the things that you focus on are things in her surroundings that she's observing while the act is happening.

And for some reason, that is more impactful and powerful to me and makes me want to continue reading.

I think if something is too graphic and traumatic, you almost kind of need a moment to be like, no, I don't know if I can deal with that right now.

I can't read that now watch stuff like that?

Yeah, me too, So I think, Yeah, the way that you wrote about it was really yeah powerful.

I don't really know how else to describe it, but I thought you handled that with great care, and as a reader, I really appreciated that.

Is what I'm trying to.

Say thank you so much.

I want to ask about a different character in the book, which is Harry.

And Harry is a friend that Fran met on a comparative literature course at UNI, and it's something that you've also studied, I believe, first of all, before we get into Harry, what interests you in that subject in literature comparably, like, what is comparative literature?

What's the sort of difference.

Oh, that's that's difficult.

I studied comparative literature in Itacht, and the way it was explained to me, it's very telling that I still can't really explain it fully, is that it looks at trans and themes and ways of writing cross the world and then cross genres, interesting and languages.

So it's comparative.

Yeah, with you.

That was the difference between comparative literature what I did, and then just literature, you know, loosely translated, that was Dutch literature, right, okay, like just Dutch and much more linguistic and focus, I think, okay, very you know, much more international.

Yeah.

Yeah, I've never heard of comparative literature.

But I just don't know if that's because I didn't specifically study it, so maybe I you know, haven't come across it before, but it was really interesting in hearing them speak about it and here other people react to their chosen subject.

Was very relatable as somebody that has been in the arts, you know, other people thinking, as we've said before, that it's not it's not because it did a real.

Job, not an adult pursuit.

It's not an adult Yeah, that's exactly it.

But on Harry, what do you do you think it is that keeps Harry and Franka tethered to one another.

Yeah, I think it's a shared appreciation for the art and literature and even brother than that, for other ways to live your life, and for kind of you know, Harry has failed and Franka has a way too in life.

So did they kind of.

They kind of allow that for each other to be okay, Yeah, it's okay to do things differently.

It's okay to take another another course, to.

Have another career letter on no letter at all, or to take your time, you know, to take longer for things to develop and mature.

It feels like they understand each other on a very different level to everyone else.

You know, It's not a surface level relationship by any means it's much deeper than that, and there's no kind of judgment in their relationship either, you know, they don't judge each other's choices, and there's a lot of kind of compassion and sort of you know, not necessarily needing to say things for the other person to understand it, and being seen by the other person, which I think is we all need that person that really sees us for us, and you can't kind of you can't kind of hide when you have somebody like that, can you.

I think they kind of both know that they don't have all the answers and they don't know how life is to be lived.

And I think someone like Andrew, especially, you know, is very sure of the proper way to live life, and both Harry and Frank are both realize that that's not necessarily true, and they see that in each other.

Yeah, definitely.

I was really interested in the class aspects of the class exploration in this book because where Fran comes from, class isn't as much of a class system as it is in the UK, and it's something that she really notices when she moves to the UK with Andrew, her partner, and she kind of gains in your awareness of it, and she understands that she's come from her own sort of wealth and privileges.

But it's very different in terms of the structure in the UK, and I think she maybe has more awareness than Andrew and his colleagues, who are actually from much more privileged backgrounds.

Would you agree, yeah, I'd add that all of them are very privileged.

Yeah, in certain ways and other very important ways.

And to be clear, the Netherlands very much is also based on class.

It's just okay, yeah, yeah, we are not like the equal society.

That's you know, that's some of the right we like to say, especially to people from other countries.

Oh, we're very equalitarian.

Egalitarian.

Sorry, we're very you know, we allow all kinds.

That's not true, okay, just read the news and you see it's not true.

So there's very much a class system here as well.

But what always surprised me in the UK was how much of a vocabulary there is.

And I'm not saying that's a that's a reverse thing.

We just kind of talk about it less.

I think we're just starting to realize this.

I think in the Netherlands and in the UK, it's very much you know, there's even an upper middle class, Like, what is that an upper middle class?

Yeah?

Yeah, I've grown up with that.

I mean there's tears here as well.

I'm not saying that, you know, the Dutch are better than the English or the British, not at all, but there's much more of a rank level that's at least that's there's more of a ranking that's pronounced.

Yeah, it's it's crazy because I'm working class, but then there's people that are sort of lower working class, and then there's people that are kind of working class, but then they're edging towards middle class.

And then yeah, there's levels exactly, so confusing exactly.

I want to heard a I think a few months ago, a podcast I think from the Guardian.

It was with a journalist at the Guardian, and he'd grown.

Up i think, in a lower class family, but then his mom had remarried I think, and her husband was a middle class, upper class and then he writes for the Guardian, so that's you know, that's also and he taught basically I'm sorry if I got any of the details wrong, but basically he was saying that I don't know what class I'm in.

It put him in some it gave him some problems earlier in life, and still I think he had he had issues with that.

Yeah.

Yeah, it can cause like an identity crisis if you've you know, if who you surround yourself with, then who you've grown up around, and then suddenly you kind of move upper classes.

Yeah, it's yeah, it must be very confusing.

I mean, I don't think i'd be mad if I was if I suddenly became a class I don't know, I don't know.

I might change my mind on that was.

I want to ask you about grief because it is a big theme in the book, and I don't know why I always do this.

I'm always laughing about something and then I immediately go on to talking about a serious subject and my face immediately drops.

And I don't even intend to do it, It just happens.

I'm very aware of that.

But as a result of grief, Fran becomes quite self destructive early on in her life, and she gets into these habits of drinking and sort of you know, self harm as kind of coping mechanisms.

And she says about herself, I didn't know myself and felt like a stranger always, which I think is such a fascinating observation for a character to make about themselves, and I think her behavior can be quite difficult to read at times.

Was it important to you to write about those things in a very unfiltered way?

How do you mean unfiltered?

Like?

It feels very like raw and intimate.

You know, it doesn't feel like you'll shine away from the difficult things that she experiences.

Does that make sense?

Yeah?

Yeah, I try to do that because I think that's where the treasure lies.

When you're afraid to go somewhere as a writer, or when it's difficult or slightly uncomfortable and you're not sure, you're not sure you want to go there.

I think that's where the good writing is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did.

And I think it was really fascinating to read from that perspective because you really get into the nitty gritty of it, and I think if you've been through something similar yourself, it's hard to understand it from an outside perspective.

It's very different to read about it and go, oh, like, you know the elements of this that I really connect with.

But I wouldn't have necessarily understood that that's how it looked to an outside eye.

No.

I've mentioned that she had a difficult adolescence and her father died when she was quite young.

I think she's about twelve when he dies, and she felt almost I don't want to say rejected by her mom, but there's definitely a lot of distance there, and her mom went very quiet with her in the year following her dad's passing.

Did you feel that that grief had fractured their dynamic or do you think that they just didn't have that connection in the first place.

I think what Franka struggles with was and is that silence that not talking.

But we were talking about earlier, the body keeps the school.

She's kept all.

That in because there was no place for it to go now.

And again, her mother is not a villain either.

She's not entirely good non entirely bad.

So she coped with that situation the best she could.

But you know, to barely ever speak to a child for a year, that will definitely have a big influence on how you handle big life events and emotions later on.

Yeah, I mean there's a lot of things that happened that her mom doesn't handle very well.

You know, There's things like I'm not going to give spoilers, but you know, sharing news with her too close to the event and it's you know, it really throws Franka.

She's a really interesting character.

And I think they're dynamic.

I mean, I love reading about mother daughter dynamics.

I think there's something so unique about them, and that was definitely the case with this book.

You know, they have such Yeah, there's such an interesting dynamic there.

I don't really know how else to phrase it, but I was really fascinated reading about them.

I would love to ask you about the dinner party aspect.

You know, it's called the dinner party.

We're exploring the course of one night that set around a dinner party.

Our dinner parties and something that you enjoy reading about watching.

Is it something that was very specific to wanting to write about for this book.

I'd love to know where that aspect came from.

I am very much afraid of dinner parties in real life that they stressed me out on'y No, there's too much happening many people.

No, I'm responsible for everyone having fun or having a good meal.

Do you feel like that about attending dinner parties as well or just about hosting hosting?

Is I try never to do that.

Yeah, I try never, hope.

I think attending is slightly better, but I'd still go to the toilet like every half an hour, just too.

But I'm a very shy, interverted person, so I think that's that's fine.

You know.

Do you think you'd be hiding in the kitchen like FRANKEA.

Yeah, definitely.

Well, I'd never have gotten into the position of having to stuff at chicken or something like that.

No, do you cook for the people or no?

If no, no, I can cook.

I'm an okay cook.

I don't spend that much time on it, but just yeah, no, there's too much pressure.

It fills me with anxiety a party, but I love I love watching them, especially on TV.

Have you got any favorite dinner party scenes that you can think of?

Yeah, so there's a whole film The Party.

I think it was twenty seventeen.

Yeah, yeah, yah, twenty seventeen with Patricia Clarkson and Kristen Scott Thomas.

I haven't watched this.

You should in some black and white, Oh my gosh.

And it's so much fun.

And I still it's only after I'd written the first two drafts of the Dinner Party, so it wasn't really an influence as such, But I love that kind of thing, yeah, because it descends into chaos and there's all these interpersonal relationships going on and tensions and you're only aware of like twenty percent of them, and all these people doing.

The room things.

It's absurd and very stressful.

I love that.

I think dinner parties are a brilliant way of building tension, and I think you do that masterfully in this book.

But have you watched The Bear?

No, No, I watched like half an hour of the first episode.

It's very intense, so I understand if you but if you get to watch, if you just search out the dinner party scene in The Bear, there's a Christmas dinner party scene and it's another one of those where it just descends into chaos.

I love that, Yeah, And it's so the building.

That whole episode is one of the most perfect episodes of television I've ever watched.

It's so powerful and.

I will Yeah.

So I feel the same way about Fleabagy's the first episode of the second series, and that just delights me, especially how it ends.

Leading That's just I don't know why I'd love that.

I just I wouldn't.

Yeah, I would be very anxious in real life, but like in art, I.

Had completely forgotten about that one.

But that is an incredible scene.

You're right, I absolutely love that, and I really love I always forget that Olivia Coleman was in Fleabag and she's.

Such a great character.

Oh god, honestly, it's one of my favorite roles I've seen her in, and I always forget that because it's so different to who she is in real life.

It's so funny to watch her in that.

Before I finish off by asking you for a recommendation, Viola, I would love to know what is next for you.

So I have written the next one, and I'm not sure I wanted to be the published next one, okay, because it's a tricky story and I think I really like it and I think it asks important questions and tries to answer them.

But I'm not sure it's the right one for the various seasons.

So I'm sorry for slightly yeah, a letdown of an answer.

No, not at all.

I'm excited for whatever comes next from you.

But hopefully there'll be something at some point that we can look forward to.

I'd like to keep doing this as long as I can.

For sure, I.

Would like you to keep doing this.

I would also love somebody to adapt to The Dinner Party.

I'd love to see this on screen, and I think as an actor it would be Franco would be a dream role.

I think she's such a great character.

So yeah, you've written an incredible character there.

For our listeners.

The Dinner Party is out now in the UK and the US.

I will be popping links in the show notes to grab yourself a copy.

But before I let you go, of Viola, I do like to finish by asking for a recommendation.

So what would you like to recommend to the listeners.

I'd like to recommend It's a Dry Heart by Italian Ginsburg.

Yes I have.

I've only read one of Italian Ginsburg, but that's not the one i've read.

I can't remember what it's called.

Well, it's very sparse and very concentrated and stylistic.

I guess this is the word, which is something I would inspire aspire to write very much.

I love you, yeah, I love I love her style.

She's a fantastic writer.

I'd love to read in Italian if I could, but I can't read Italian.

No, me too.

It's such a gorgeous language.

I'd love to be able to speaking.

But yeah, thank you so much for coming on a pair of bookends.

Thank you for having me.

It's enjoy Thank you.

And where can the listeners find you online?

If anywhere?

I am on Instagram for Amazon whole name.

Yeah, perfect, So listeners, go give Vela a follow, go buy her book.

And if you enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to write review and subscribe.

And if you want to follow us, you can find us for more content over on Patreon and for the rest of the time over on Instagram at pair of blekens pod and on Twitter and TikTok at a pair of bookends.

That is all we've got time for.

Thank you so much for listening, and goodbye.