Welcome to a pair of bookends, the book Club You Can Carry Anywhere.

I'm your host Hannah Matt Donald and are we bookending the conversation with some of the most exciting voices from the bookish world.

Welcome to another episode in our debut Spotlight series, where we shine a light on the freshest authors and their work.

Today.

That spotlight is on ba Pepper and her debut novel, Daughter of Stone, which is out now and links to grab your copy are in the show notes.

Daughter of Stone is an epic tale of witches, wielders, trials and magic, populated by an incredible diverse cast of characters and rich with Welsh mythology and culture.

It is bound to be your latest romanticy obsession.

Author of Daughter of Stone is the brilliant Va Pepper.

She started writing fantasy through Lord of the Ring fan fiction many years ago.

She then made the decision to take her writing seriously and studied creative writing at Swansea University.

B then went on to focus on a career in clinical research and after eight years, returned to the world of books, starting the really amazing popular Romanticy podcast, A pod of Smart and Wingspan with her best friend Sam.

Here you can find them chatting all things romand to say, books, smart, and more, alongside some of the biggest authors writing in the romanty sphere.

Hits all about her debut novel, Welcome be to a pair of bookends.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so excited.

I am so excited to have you on.

I feel like we've wanted this to happen for ages.

I think I found a message between you, me and Sam a maybe ever a year ago, being like we need to make something happen, and we just haven't managed to.

So I'm so happy this is happening.

I think it's hard because you guys are obviously so in the romanticy sphere and I am not really a romanticy girlie, so it's like where can you put me?

Yeah, and we we've like we talk about this all the time, but like I feel like the last year, the next sort of last year, in the next twelve months for us have been like just I just feel like the year's gone from underneath us.

Like I started seating to him.

Yeah, we started season two and March and now I'm like, since when was it October?

And then Sam said the idea or recorded up until Christmas.

I'm like what, I'm like, what's going on?

It's actually insane, isn't it.

When you realize that you've like booked to that point, You're like, how the fuck?

It's crazy?

Like when I had to start like putting in like automatic responses on emails being like full until twenty twenty six, I was like, how how is this happening?

How does it?

I know completely, Yeah, it's crazy, SOMs surreal, but I'm so glad I'm finally here.

I'm so excited to chat to you before we dive into you and your book.

I do always like to start by asking what you're currently reading, so could you tell us?

So I'm always a physic.

I'm like a physical reader, the kindle or physical and then I always have an audiobook, so I'm always at least doing two on the go.

So I'm currently physically reading Bonded by Thorns, which is the first book in the Beast of the Brier series, and it's by Elizabeth Helen.

That are sisters that write, and it's a super popular romant to see.

I think there's like I'm looking, I think there's four books out at the moment, but I'm on the first one, so it's like a Beauty and the Beast kind of retelling.

But it's why Choose.

And I'm only just like a few pages in, but I'm really enjoying it.

And I just started audiobooking the last book in the Bridge Kingdom series by Danielle Jensen, because they come out on audiobook before the physical releases.

Yeah, so the way she did her deals is that the audiobook has got different rites and they decide when they release.

So the last two, the audiobook is released before the physical copy.

The audiobooks are ten ten and the voice actors are so good.

So the Tempest Blade is the final book in the series, and I just started that and I am to say I'm obsessed with that is an understatement.

I'm obsessed with her and I'm loving it like I'm just eating it up.

So that's what I'm currently reading.

I love that.

I feel like I've heard you both speak about Danielle Johnsen on the podcasts.

I bowed to the greatness that is daniel Jensen.

We got to cheer for her when she did a curse carved read the series a kiss Carved in Bone, which is a like Viking romanticy and when she came to Cardiff, they asked a kid for her and literally like my hand was shaking, like going to shake.

And I love a kiss carved in bone.

There's a duology that's great.

But her Bridge Kingdom series is ten times so good.

What do you think it is that start?

Like?

Where at what point did this obsession with this genre start?

So for me, the way your eyes just went so wide.

It is because I'm like, I love telling the story, but I feel like I've told it a million times.

We're probably probably not definitely not on here, but I so I was a reader growing up.

I went to Welsh language school but didn't come from a Welsh language speaking family, which is quite common in Wales that the parents send their children to Welsh speaking school.

And I don't know what it was, but some whis in my brain got crossed and it isn't.

I don't want this to be like a bad representation of tending children to Welsh school, because it's a very good thing.

It's just my brain just didn't compute.

And although I am fluent in Welsh and I picked it up so quickly in Welsh, everything's phonetic.

Everything in English is not, so my brain got really confused and my English, like spelling, took a real nose dive to the point where like they wanted to hold me back a year in school.

It was like a whole thing.

But my head teacher of my school, because it was like fifty of us in my primary school, it was tiny, started encouraging me to read to try and improve my English and my spelling, because the more you read, the more you see it, the best, you know, the quicker at six in your brain.

And I just fell in love with fantasy, you know, from a young age.

And you know, I was the generation in my teens of you know, Twilight and the Hunger Games, and it was just I was obsessed.

Like I used to paint myself with glitter when I was in high school, like I was that kid.

And then I just got some really amazing English teachers and decided, do you know what, I'm going to go study this in it in a fashion in Uni.

So I did.

My actual degree was American Studies, which is like politics, literature, and history, but I took a load of creative writing classes.

I loved writing, but then unfortunately doing a degree really like tuck it out of me, because I think having to study not fantasy and do all like the classics and tested the Deerbervilles and stuff like that, and I know some people love that kind of stuff, but it just it just wasn't for me.

And so I finished UNI and I was like, this is just I did not pick up a book for eight years.

I didn't.

I didn't read a single book.

I couldn't do it, and I didn't.

I just completely fell out of it.

Stop writing, stop reading.

And then it was only after my daughter was born in twenty twenty two and I was in like really bad throes of post natal anxiety, which I feel like there's a lot of focus on postnal depression, but I'd never really heard a posting anxiety.

And I was like Apple Night couldn't sleep even though she was sleeping, surprisingly, and I was like, I need to do something with this time.

If I cannot sit and scroll on the internet and doom scroll about all these like scary new one baby things, I need to do something.

And I don't know what it was, but something came up on my social media about somebody posting about a book called The Courthorns and Roses.

I knew nothing about it.

I didn't know that it was fantasy.

I knew nothing, but it was something about the cover that I was like, I think I'm going to read that, like I don't know what it was.

And so my husband went and fished out a kindle from our garage that was probably like twenty years old, and I downloaded it and I read it, and I really enjoyed it, and I was like, Okay, I'll read the next one.

And that is where I mean a Court miss and Fury to this day is my favorite book of all time.

It has it has such a like I think it's like an emotional connection to me because it was like my first and then that year I read one hundred and ten books.

Oh my god.

Yeah.

I mean I was on maternity, so I had a lot.

Of time to do it, but even so, like that's a lot.

Yeah, And just fell into book talk because like obviously my phone was listening to me and you know, hearing all about the algorithm and was giving me back book talk, and you know, I found authors that Chris Broadbent, Door of No Worlds was probably the next series I read from book talk, Daniel Jensen and I just completely fell into the genre, and I think it gave me.

I always loved fantasy, but I did feel like sometimes really really high fantasy I would struggle with.

And I think the romanticy combination for me was really like it was like, oh my gosh, this is what I've been missing all these years.

And then and then I was like, and it was because of authors like christ of Roadbent that at the time she was still indie public, self published.

I don't even think Serpent had come out.

I think she just endaugh of No World, and I don't think she was a mum at that point, but like she was still working her day job, like she just did this as like a side thing, and I was like, why can't I do that, you know, like maybe I could do that.

And I was writing but purely for like a mental health thing, not not to take it seriously.

And then that's that's sort of what happened.

And then a few months after I dragged Sam in could get.

And Scream, and that's how the podcast was born.

Yeah, I mean Sam has always been much more of a reader.

So we've been friends for a very long time.

We've been friends since twenty seventeen.

We met in our day jobs in a completely different industry.

And Sam has always been more of a reader, so she'd read like the occasional thriller, like you know, kind of like your big you know fiction, like you know, best sellers sort of type books, but maybe like five to ten bucks a year if that, like not many.

But she's a huge Disney adult.

And so when I was reading Akata and it's essentially abut in the Beast retal in, I was like, you need to read this book.

I need a friend that in real life that is in on this like basically cult with me.

I need you to join it.

And she bought Akata and basically in thirty one days read all of Sarah J.

Mass's catalogs so like nineteen BOD and she's just as crazy and she's got like the same kind of observative personality that I have.

And then she basically read my whole TBR and then yeah, it was kind of the beginning of the following year that I was I think we should do a podcast because we sit down and talk about these books for so long.

I think we should record it.

And she was like, no, like I'm not doing it, really, I think we're just although we are, I think we come off quite confident.

Yeah, with both really anxious people in real life, Like we're the most anxious people irl that you'll ever meet.

We get so whiped up by what people think about us, which is silly really, and we were so scared, like so scared to put ourselves out there.

But in hindsight it was a very good thing.

But absolutely it's been so successful, and you're like, obviously I check where my podcast sits in the UK top the UNI, get to see the top two hundred charts on Apple Podcasts, and I'm always checking the books podcasting.

You guys are always in the top two hundred, Like it's if not the top hundred, you know, you're always in there.

And yeah, you've been so successful.

You seem to have like a really great audience that you know, really care about what you're putting out there.

And I think you know, whilst you are both really anxious people and like I have anxiety as well, so I completely get it, but you both come across so well and so relatable and lovable, and yeah, I just absolutely love listening to you both.

So yeah, I think you've both smashed it.

Thank you.

That was a really long winded answer, but that's so typically.

I love hearing about this stuff, and I think this is a probably good place for us to dive into your journey as a debut author.

And in your acknowledgments you do also thanks Sam.

You say without you, this book would still be a secret.

In what way has Sam sort of encouraged you to share your book.

With the world.

So kind of as I said, when I started back on this, like rereading journey and rewriting journey, that I kind of came back to you.

In twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, after my daughter was born, I started reading again, but I started writing again, and Daughter of Stone started as a university project when I was eighteen, a part of a creative writing class.

It was like a prompt something like, oh, write the first thousand words of a story that essentially gives the basic plot of the story in the first thousand words kind of thing.

And I just loved the idea of a Welsh witch that came from a long family of witches that had no magic.

That was just the basic premise in my brain.

And so when I started reading again, I started writing.

When I was on maternity again purely for just like mental health, like you know, getting me into routine doing something creative.

And I was writing and it was always going to be this story because I you know, I just it was like an itch I couldn't scratch in the back of my brain for so long, but with no intention of it ever going anyway, Like it was purely just for that reason.

And I've kind of been writing it for a while and then the podcast happened, and you know, we were doing that, and then just one day I just like said to Sam, like, look, nobody but my husband knows this, but I've actually been writing again for probably nearly a year at that point, and I was like, I don't think I'm going to do anything with it, and if I do, I'm going to publish it under like not just like a pen name, but like a faceless pen name, like I'm just going to put it out there.

Maybe I don't know.

And she was like absolutely not, Like no way.

She was like like you need to write the story.

You need to get it out there, people need to read it, and like I need to read it.

And so yeah, she was really the person that lit the fire under my ass to put it, and then it was probably at the end then the end of twenty twenty four, So last year, I said, because every year would come and I'd get gutted that it wasn't the year that I was publishing, and I'd be like, oh, I really wanted to do it, but I'm not, like, I'm not like locking in.

And then the end of last year, I was like, right, I am not allowing twenty twenty five to go by and it'd be another year that I have not published this book.

And yeah, Sam, you know, she's my biggest cheerleader.

She beta alpha reads everything.

I wouldn't even see beta reads because she reads everything the second it gets written.

And yeah, she's I mean if I was your.

Friend, i'd be like too impatient.

I'd be like passing over now.

Yeah, and I mean, yeah, so she got it.

She read it, and she read it in like less than twenty four hours.

She's crazy.

Yeah she's yeah, I love her and yeah, and it would still just be a secret, and she'd start talking about it on like TikTok Lives and she'd tell our listeners and so, you know, a few weeks later they'd message like, oh, so is what's happening, like, are you writing this book?

And I'm like, oh, maybe, I guess so.

Yeah.

So if it weren't for her, this book would never have seen the light of day.

Oh my god.

I love that.

And I'm not even surprised that she finished this in twenty four hours.

It is such a gripping book and I was flying through it and yeah, I finished it like one in the morning, and I was like, I can't, I can't message you now, but I was like obsessed.

I was like, how have you left us here?

Yeah?

I said, I wasn't gonna give any spoilers, But is it a spoiler to say that's a cliffhanger?

No, I am a I will always say that I am a lover of cliffhangers, and I am a writer of cliffhangers.

And this is not the first and it will not be the last.

Oh no, don't tell me that.

Sorry, no, But I'm already.

I'm ready.

I'm ready for book two.

Whenever you want to give us book two, I'm ready for it.

I think we should dive into your main characters, Dylan and Non.

Is that how it's your name?

Yeah?

Yes, None is feisty.

She's fearless and she takes no shit.

And Dylan, I.

Would say, is fierce, He's protective, and he's complicated.

What was important to you when you were creating your cast of characters?

So I think for None, it was, you know, I wanted to have this main character, you know, the one that I as a reader would like, want to read and want to root for.

But also I think when we first find None that the first couple of chapters, like she's not in a good place, like she's not having a good time, Like she's really in the throes of like you know, depression and grief.

And for me, I think I tend to connect with those characters the most.

I say, I like it.

That sounds quite sadistic, but like I like it when characters are not necessarily like living their best life a princess in a castle, you know, straight away.

I like the struggle, and we love a flawed character as well.

Yeah, and None is so flawed, and I wanted her to be like that.

I wanted it to be that there were times that the reader actually might not even like her sometimes because I think in you know, the throes of depression and grief, you don't like yourself at times, and there's things that those illnesses can make you do or changes a person that yeah, it's you're not always a likable person.

And I wanted that for her.

I wanted the reader to like be in that mindset with her.

And yeah, and I think, like, you know, just her backstory, like she's had such a time of it.

I just think, why wouldn't she be like, why wouldn't she be a bit at times because you know, her family, like, and she's had a real rough time of it.

And I think as well, because this is like I don't ever use the word urban because I don't feel like it fits the book properly, but like technically it is set in like an adjacent real world, I guess in the same sense of like, and I'm not comparing the books, but like Cassandra Clear's like Mortal Instruments is so like magic exists, but we still have like you know, the UK and Wales and city and cardiffs that exist.

So again, you know, she's living a normal life, you know, in a little village in Wales.

And that's what I felt, you know, somebody who was in their twenties, who'd lost somebody so close to them had such a bad experience with their family, that's kind of the situation she would be in.

So with None, that was definitely like my goal was to make this like flawed character one hundred percent.

With Dylan, it's I mean, from anyone who reads it, his chapters are very Cloak and Dagger.

We get a little bit of insight, and obviously we know as readers because we're reading his povs, but there's definitely more going on to his story than even None realizes because we know it as readers, but None doesn't necessarily know it.

But I yeah, with him, he definitely presents himself as one way in book one.

And when I first drafted it, there was actually very few Dylan chapters.

There was literally only like four or five, I want to say, And I had no intention of this ever being due a pov.

It just got to the point where I felt like I had to write his chapters to, like, I guess, continue the story and continue like the intrigue.

But my editor after the first draft was like, I love his povs, but you either need to get rid of them or put more of them in because it's almost two like Cloak and Dagger, but it's hard when you've got a character like Dylan who has so many secrets and it's from first person POV.

So yes, I will say his I wouldn't say they were a challenge in the sense like I love writing him, but he definitely presents himself as one way is all I can say.

How do you find it?

They were like only revealing certain aspects of a character, like do you just have the urge to be like, oh, shut to tell everyone everything, or you like, no, I really want to hold back, And.

I'm the other way.

I'm the other way.

I hold like I mean, I'm currently writing book two.

It's all outlined and my edit has worked on the outline with me, and there's you know things that like obviously there are a lot of questions and answered in book one, and I that was one hundred percent intentional because you know, non totally experiences.

She's literally thrown into this world she doesn't really know much about.

And again, I wanted it to be confusing because if you were experiencing that, you wouldn't know everything that's going on.

You're not suddenly going to fully understand like political systems, you know, within weeks of being somewhere, but I knew that I I'm definitely in books two would definitely get a lot of those questions answered.

But there was definitely things that my editor was like, you're really making people wait for that answer, and I'm like yeah, And as I'm writing it now, I'm like, there's one big one that I think, like for me, I'd initially splotted in that it's right at the end of book two, but I am starting to think now, I'm like, am I almost like to put it rudely like edge and people a bit too?

And do I need to give it a little bit sooner because I've made people wait a whole first book, let alone the second book.

But I'm actually the other way.

I like to keep all my secrets, like I like to draw things out.

I'm an overwriter for sure.

Like that's you're very good at building tension.

I will say that, oh thank you, Yeah, I mean I that final scene is so cinematic that I was like, this has to be adapted one day because it is just so like you can literally like visualize everything and it just yeah, there's no other way to describe it than cinematic.

It was just so powerful and incredible and I was like looking at the page numbers go down.

As I was reading it, I was having to read it on my phone, and while I was reading it, I was.

Watching the page and I was like, there's no way that this is about to finish.

I was like, how are we going to do this?

And then I read the last page and I was like, oh my god.

I literally turned over to my boyfriend.

He was trying to go to sleep, and I was like, they listen, like it's just finished, and it's like chaos.

It's your chaos.

So I was like, I don't understand, Like I need to know what the next the next book is.

I need to know what's going to happen.

He was like, so again, like in the initial first draft, the first decent draft that, like Sam read, the ending was always the ending.

I've always like, it's always going to be a trilogy.

In my brain, I've always known the overarching beginning, middle, and end in terms of like the trilogy, and also the beginning, middle, and end of book one.

And I always knew that Book one would end the way it did.

But I actually, and this is one thing I'm so bad as an author.

I get in my own head terribly, and when I was draft in book one, without saying too many spoilers, the kind of person who turns out to be not what you think it is, I think they are at the end and kind of, yeah, betrayal is definitely the word that was always going to be the person, and I'd set it up in my head in the plot like that, there was these little things that kind of like they're happening and they're very suspicious, but I'm purposely using another character as like the bigger, almost too obvious alarm to draw the reader's attention away from this other character that's been a little bit shifty the whole time.

But I actually changed it and it wasn't that character that does that at the end.

I changed it to somebody really like I guess predictable that we would do something like that, And I gave it to Sam and she loved it.

But I was like, but this was my original ending, and she was like, and she was like, put it back in.

I was like, really, because I feel like it's almost too The readers are going to be like, what, like that's you know, since when were they going to be like that?

And Sam was like, no, no, put it back in, and I'm so glad I did, because that's the reaction I've gotten so far, is like people are like, oh my gosh, that ending, And I'm glad she convinced me to stick with my original gut because I sometimes get in my own head about things.

I mean, you're sending your readers out with the bank, like it is such a powerful ending, and I was just I just did to take a sec.

I was like, what the fuck has happened?

Yeah, it's like mine literally blown.

But no, I think it is the perfect ending.

And I do want to return to talking about None because I absolutely loved her and I loved everything you were saying about writing that character.

I do think she's so relatable and it's so nice to read about a character that has these flaws and also the background that she comes from, you know, it's sort of like humble beginning sort of thing, and you know, reading the scenes of her working in the pub I thought was so refreshing to read.

You know, I read a lot of lyricly fiction, as I've told you, and a lot of the characters that I read have these like really fancy jobs, and it's just so nice to read somebody that just works in a.

P Yeah, and yeah, again, I think it's like that transition of like from real world to like magical world.

But I think I really wanted it to seem distinctive.

And it isn't that she doesn't I mean, she has struggles in the magical world.

Like for sure.

It's not that like she you know, falls into the magical world and then everything's great and dandy for her.

But yeah, I just you know, it's like, what would a twenty something year old who you know, has lost their best friend, is in the throes of grief, is struggling with substance abuse and depression, you know, trying to support a really you know, a sick mother essentially is a career for him.

Her you know, her affluent side of the family want nothing to do with her and haven't wanted nothing to do with her for a long time.

You know, how would she be doing?

You know?

And again it was like it's I kind of wanted it to be this representation of like, you know, she is in her mid to late twenties and she doesn't have it all figured out, and that's okay.

You know, again, I didn't, like you said, I kind of didn't want it to be.

And I love reading like I love reading like a princess in a castle, romanticy, you know, I rule the Kingdom trope like I love it, But it just didn't feel right for her.

You know, she's messy, she's foul mouthed, and it just didn't feel like the right setting and background for her to turn out the way that she does.

So, yeah, you know, her working, her working in the Pig and Poodle, which is the pub that she works in, was there was actually a lot more scenes in the real world in the original drafts, and I had to cut so much of it because I was it doesn't it needs to get going quicker, like we're like, you know, when I was looking at the percentage, I was like, way way too far in and we're not We're not like cooking if you go on.

I love that.

But I know I did love those scenes, and you know, I really loved there's like moments where this like regular is just being a bit of a dick and she's just like, oh my god, shure, and it's just moments like that that just kind of really get you on side with that character.

And yeah, I just I just really love her.

I want to talk about the grief aspect, which you have briefly mentioned.

It is a theme that runs throughout this book and she is learning to kind of live alongside grief, and as you said, she's lost her best friend.

And there is a really beautiful I'm going to be really careful about spoilers, but there is a really beautiful way later on in the book where people honor their dead, and it's a really beautiful way to do that.

I hope that's not a spoiler, but I wasn't sure if that was based on a real thing.

The way that they honor their dead.

Is that based on a real thing?

Or is that so?

Like yes, no, So Norse callan gay have is like you know, it's essentially like it's the night before Halloween in Wales, but like you know, kalan gay is the is the Welsh term for Halloween for once a back term.

And I'm certainly no expert in Welsh history and mythology, but I am obsessed with it.

If that kind of makes sense, And a huge inspiration for me is the Mabinogion, which is a collection of Welsh folk tales that you know, were originally just told the word of Mouth for thousands of years and eventually, and I think the early nineteen I want to say, the nineteen hundreds, somebody sat down and translated them and wrote them down and subsequently have been kind of adapted and rewritten and various versions.

But it's essentially a collection of four smaller books, and they call them triads or triads, and you know, you have like King Arthur features heavily in them.

You know, there's kind of you know, giants and you know, beasts and princesses and all these things, and it's like the perfect fairy tale collection, I guess, and Norse Kal and gay I have mentioned in that as like the thinning of the veil when it's at its thinnest.

So in terms of like Welsh tradition, from what I've experience, it isn't necessarily something that I my family or people that I know celebrated in that specific way where you know, you place things on an altar.

But I'm also somebody who practices witchcraft, so I guess I kind of took it from that aspect of like honoring somebody an altar, placing things that mean things to you, And it kind of made sense to do it on a night that traditionally is celebrated as the thinning of the veil, because you know, what better way to speak or for them to hear you than that kind of event.

So it was kind of like a hodgepodge of two of two sort of like cultural things I sort of like smushed together.

But I mean, yeah, it felt like the appropriate time to loop background.

You know, again not a spoiler because it's right at the beginning, but you know, her best friend has passed away, and it felt like the appropriate time to loop that background and also show showing on you know, she's so vulnerable.

It's such a raw thing, even though it didn't happen that long ago, but it did happen that long ago for her.

And it also then, you know, kind of in like a plot way, gave up tunity to reveal things about other characters that you know, a good like sort of little easter eggs are put in for further box.

I guess, yeah, And.

I think you know through her it's caturing, isn't it.

Yeah, Katrin is a friend that she's lost, and I think we definitely see in this book how important friendship is to to non And I think She describes Katrin at one point as her platonic soul mate.

Would that be about right?

Yeah?

Yeah, which was really moving.

And I've definitely had friends that feel like that to me, and I'm sure you have even just listened to you and Sam, I'm like, you've got that kind of connection, do you know what I mean?

But yeah, it's catern.

Is obviously somebody that's been such a big part of her life.

And then when she meets Jazz, I feel like Jazz is a friend that Non also develops this amazing connection with.

Do you want to talk a little bit.

About the friends that None makes along the way and and why friendship is so important to her?

Yeah, I think you know, when None comes to going On, which is like her family's ancestral home that she never knew that they had, and it's this big, massive fuck off castle, you know, she's lost her best friend and she talks about it.

You know, she's one of these people that like found her patonic soulme at a young age.

They locked in and that was them like set for life.

And you know she would kind of get a bit bullied sometimes as people would think that she was like obsessed with her but for them, it was always patonic and you know, they had such a deep love.

So I think when she comes to going on, she's very much not wanting to find that again.

I don't feel like she's looking for friendship ever.

But Jazz was a character that I as long as there's been Non and Dylan, there's been Jazz Like Jazz was for me.

I always say, like the I guess in a way a main character that I never intended.

And I worried again writing Non in Jazz's relationship because it is very flirty in the beginning, and I and I that was again not intentional.

It's just Jazz is just the type of character that, like when you write them, they just write themselves.

And I worried again that that was confusing for people.

But also like know, I was like, they're young, like Jazz is hot, Non's heart, like why why wouldn't they you know?

But I think sometimes they can be a relationship can start like that but still developed platonically as well, And I wanted that, but Jazz to kind of tread that sort of like line I guess with Non because I think for me, maybe this is just me, but it's almost like a familiarity thing as well, that None feels comfortable enough with them that they can be like that and you know, flirt a bit.

She's kind of in like a fucking era, so I guess, like you know, but yeah, the friendships I think are very much.

I feel like None is reluctant, but I think the characters that she meets, particularly Jazz and Jazz's two friends Adde an Allou, just the type of characters that like worm their way into your heart's particularly Adde like he was just like, oh, like, there's just no way you can't not love him, you know, like he's literally a golden Retriever.

And even Non with her hardened heart and her like you know, armor up is like I can't not like you, like you're too You're too much fun.

So yeah, it was very much.

I guess like None does form these bonds, but she's reluctant because she's very got his guard deep and rightly.

So I mean, yeah, fair Goud, there is so much that I want to speak to you about, but I really want to talk to you about the fact that the very essence of your book is Welsh, and it's full of the Welsh language and mythology, as you've mentioned, and I loved seeing it on the page.

My granddad, who pass last year was Welsh, and he would do this really annoying thing where he would just sometimes sit in his armchair and just like rattle off like Welsh phrases or words, knowing that I wouldn't understand.

What he was saying, and he.

Would refuse to translate it to me.

He would just say it and be like, I'd like, right, okay, cool.

So it was really nice just to see those words again, because obviously I don't hear him say those things anymore.

And there was a really beautiful word and I can't pronounce it.

It's okay, great my appenunciation shit, sorry, but I believe it's the definition.

Sorry, you wrote in the book.

It's definition is the feeling of homesickness for Wales, and you write a teacher once told me about droves of people emigrating back to Wales during the turn of the century, claiming it was due to their yearning for the homeland, which I just thought was a really really beautiful thing to just learn.

And I'd love to know if there's actually any other Welsh words that are really special to you.

Yeah, I mean hit, I was like, it had to be in there.

It's actually quite used a lot in like general culture.

People tend to like use it, but they'll sort of use it.

It does specifically and again like I hope I'm quoting my Welsh history right, but it does specifically reference a yearning or a longing for Wales as your homeland.

So I think sometimes people use it as like just a longing for some way, but I do feel like in my inse definition specifically, yeah, Whales, So that had to be in there, and that is true.

That is actually a thing that there was a huge, a huge tune of the century push for people coming back to Wales.

And that's what some people, you know, put it down to.

Whether it was more for like you know, economy and industrialization, I'm not sure, but oh gosh, are there any other words?

I mean, I so I loved it's one us.

It's probably the most common useme.

But I loved carryad, i''s gorgeous.

Yeah, I'm not again in Romand to see you see a lot of like pet names and I'm not.

I'm never here to poopu it, I'm never here to yuck.

Anyone's yum.

It's not always something for me.

I don't mind it when they're words that make sense.

So I guess, like you know, if we're talking akatar darling, so it is like a natural term of endearment.

I'm not always a lover of nicknames.

But I needed something, like I needed something for him to call her, and I went back and forth with so many different ones, and I because again to me, like because I understand the word carryad like after a while as difficult.

It is like Welsh just start to sound not overdone.

But you know, in the UK, like if you were to call someone love, it isn't like I always say this, like you get in a lot of Roman to see box where they call each other love.

But to somebody from the UK you just hear it as like a sort of like derogatory term white love, you know, like you're okayly love.

So I have to like flat so it down.

Yes, So that was the because to me, that was my concern.

So but then when I went with it, and I was like, we're going with it.

This is what it is, and I'm so glad I did because so many people have said how much they love it.

So kaya is when I'm trying to think of like another.

I really so they're not so much like words that necessarily mean something.

But the odd one and the odd V, which is kind of too like, you know, like powerful beings that have been missing or long gone.

In this story again originate from the mabin Argy.

The actually two witches that are referred to as the odd word and the odd V that I think King Arthur fights at one point.

But I love that because odd V and so thee and when in Welsh the is black and when is white.

So I love that.

It's like a short little term that says everything it needs to say.

Again, might not mean anything to anybody doesn't speak language, but I just loved the snappiness of them.

When I read it in the Mabinogul, I was like, yes, using.

That, you know, it was just so nice to read it on the page and carry I can't even pronounce it right, so.

That was sent.

Thank you.

I just love that term of endemon.

And I'm the same as you, like I don't like it just being used for the sake of it.

And I say this, but me and my boyfriend like we don't even use each of those names anymore, like we just shout babe, and hopefully the other one will hear it.

So even though that's like like our friends find that really cringe and we're like, we're not trying to say it in a cringy way, it's.

Just we've always used that word.

But yeah, when I read it in books and it's there's just kind of not a point to it, I'm like, oh, but that made so much sense to me, And yeah, I just thought it really added something special to.

This book in terms of their romance.

What would you say are the tropes that you love that were kind of non negotiables for you?

So I feel like I don't think any writer ever writes to trope.

So when like we think of ideas, I'm not thinking I want to write this like an enemy to Lovers, So I'm going to write this type of story.

I think, you know, the story happens and then these tropes naturally like happen.

So for me, it never felt right that Non and Dylan's story, particularly in this book, wouver.

As much as I'm a lover of Enemy to Lovers and I know it's such a loved trope in the romanticy genre, it just didn't feel right in this book because they just didn't feel like enough none coming into a world that she knows nothing about to then have an enemy kind of didn't it Just the pacein like it didn't feel genuine because you know, unless it was like you know, her grandmother, you know that that I think is safe to say like that an enemy situation.

She doesn't have any relationships with anybody outside so within that world.

So as why I always say like Rivals to Lovers for this book one hundred percent, But I actually love it because I do feel like it's an accurate explanation of their relationship.

And I don't want people to go into this thinking that they're going to get enemy to lovers because that just isn't not the case.

I you know, without giving too much away, Book two is a different story, but I think you know, once you've got to the end of this, you'll understand why.

But it felt like I knew it was coming, but I just felt like doing it in book one was just too We just didn't have the time for them to hate.

I mean, she's annoyed by him and like, you know, like he gets on in nerves, but she certainly doesn't hate him by any.

Means she just tries to like she tries to hold back, that doesn't show.

She tries to like not give in to whatever this connection could be one percent.

Yeah, And I mean and he does, you know, like the carrier thing as much as like he does use it genuinely, he does it as well to occur one hundred percent, like it's one hundred percent to like wind her up without a doubt.

And she says at one point like stop calling, I mean love like stop it, like use my name and whatever.

Ones.

I guess trials is a trope and I'm a lover of trials.

I think people always say it's a very very done thing in Romanticy, but I don't care.

I will read it forever because I think it's got framework, but it can be so different.

I think it'd be so vastly different.

So again, when I always knew I wanted Trials in the first book, but I wasn't going to do it because I was so worried that it was overdone.

And then I was like, no, I'm going to stick to my guns, and I'm so glad I did, because I think it was a way to incorporate Welsh, you know, creatures and mythology and more into the Trials, which I'd like to think gives it a bit of like a fresher take, but it's still, you know, like a an arc and a familiar type of story for romanticy readers to Still it's that balance of like new and something that's comfortable because I you know, I, as a romantic reader, love a bit of both.

So I think Trials was probably the other thing that I loved about this.

I love that.

I mean, the Trials are so kind of epic, and I think one of the most challenging things for a fantasy romanticy writer is creating the world of your novel and creating those magic systems, I think is something that you have to put a lot of kind of time into and I imagine a lot of writing outside the actual story on the page.

You're having to like, you know, make sure that everything sort of mapped out and works.

And I'd love to hear about what it was like for you creating your magic system and sort of world of your novel.

Was it that your magic system was inspired by a lot of like wealth mythology or did it kind of stem from other things?

Yeah, kind of a bit of everything.

So I you know, in my prep for when I actually locked in and started drafting Door of Stone, I reread the mabinarchy On a few times, so like I pull elements from there, like you know, the Oddmen and the Oddy that I mentioned, I loved them as being like these sort of figures within this world that were not gods, but like the closest thing to a god in this world.

The pantheon of God's which is only brief and not everyone is mentioned.

The Glossary does reference everyone, but you know, the only a few are mentioned in book one, almost all of them from the Mabinogion as figures, not necessarily gods, but as figures.

And you know, the Mabinogion does have these two warring families of Dawn and Cleared.

Most of the people that are noted as like God's children of Dawn were actually you know, children Adorn in the mabinog On the same clear there's a few that I've added.

And if anybody is like a die hard like Mabinogion fan, like I was going to put a forward to say, I know I've changed things, like I'm not so I didn't like misread my Welsh mythology, Like anything that's changed is purely for plot reasons because I had to because in the Mabinogion, Dawn and He'd only have like two to three children each and it just didn't feel epic enough for like this pantheon of gods.

So a lot of it, a lot of it was that, and then also things within the vassal side of it.

I'm actually a massive anime fan, like a die hard ani made.

Yeah, I'm a huge studio ghibli fan.

And in the last of two years, my husband, who's a massive anime fan, has got me into an anime called One Piece, which is like the biggest anime of all time.

It's been going since like ninety ninety seven, and in the last two years, I've watched every episode released since ninety seven to it's like over a thousand.

They're only like twenty minutes each, but yeah, and there's a big they call them arcs like series I guess us story arcs in there, and there's a big arc where like a shogun has vassals, and I just love that.

So they're like people who are like followers of this of this you know, King I guess or emperor, and they call themselves vassals, and I was like, I like that.

I was like, I really like that.

So I was like, when I researched the words and understood the definition and it made sense, I was like, I really like the idea of you know, not just having light and dark magic, but I also like that each character can have like a version of that.

So because they get chosen by a specific god as a vassal within those pantheons, it gives each character like a uniqueness.

And it isn't so much explained in this book, but it is something that I am explaining more much more in book to and it's not a spoiler, but multiple people can be chosen by the same god, so you can have three or four people chosen by the same god.

We don't have that in book one just yet.

But the power can look different in every person, I guess, the same way that you know every person's individual.

So I just like the idea of it gave me, you know, light and dark magic, which I love.

I mean as a fantasy reader, it's it's such a you know, a favorite for everyone.

But then it's still allowed me to add in this Welsh aspect of like the Welsh gods and make each person's magic unique.

But I will say I worried about it being two I guess like structured and too.

I don't want to say complicated, but like faffy.

Maybe it's the word for the readers or yeah, yeah, no for the readers, because to me it makes perfect sense right in my brain.

But for the reader, I was so worried because we have, you know, witches and wielders.

Wielders were previously known as witches, but they call themselves something else.

Now you have Dawn and here, which separate the witches and wilders, and then within that you have people that are chosen by the gods as vassals, so you have like a kind of like sub genres within each of them.

And then you have people like again not a spoiler who And then we have covens.

So then different covens tend to have a majority of the type of you know, magic that they are.

And then you have the Western coven, which is predominantly witches, but didn't isn't.

So again it was a bit like you know, I was worried you got a bit like convolare.

With all the layers.

I think you don't need to understand everything about every book, though.

I think the way that you've written this book is it feels very accessible to me as somebody that doesn't read a lot of romancy or fantasy.

It felt like, you know, I was aware that this was a very layered sort of world, but I really enjoyed just kind of handing myself over to you and letting you take over.

And I think that the story is so gripping and enjoyable to read that it kind of the stuff I don't understand, it didn't really matter.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, it's one hundred percent.

And that's something I've learned is to like trust your readers because I am an over explainer.

So that was my editor my idea.

It was like, you need to trust people.

And also, like you said, it doesn't matter that you don't every single aspect of it, just that you enjoy it.

Yeah, enjoy it.

I did.

I am very aware of time, and I could genuinely talk to you all day, and I'm so sorry that I've gone way over the amount of time.

I said.

I was certified yapper.

It's fine me too.

I really really want to quickly talk to you before I ask you for some recommendations.

I really want to quickly talk about these spice aspects in this book because you make us wait, you make us wait for it, and it is worth they and I don't really know what we can say without giving spoilers, and I don't want to take that experience away from another reader.

But how did you find right in those scenes?

So you'd think of somebody who reads as much smart as I do, that that would be like, you know, like the easy, but it actually was probably the hardest chapter to write.

And I think for me again, you know, I don't like waiting too much, like for my first kisses, and I don't feel like I make the reader wait too much for this.

No, I didn't feel like you made us wait for the kisses.

I'm talking the yeah yeah.

So I didn't want to rush it.

I didn't want it to be too soon, but I also wanted to give the reader something in book one because I like a sloburn.

But it didn't feel right for Non and Dylan in this book because without giving too much away, like you know, he has his motives is all I can say, and it certainly isn't disingenuous like he feels.

What he feels is genuine.

There's no like cloak and dagger about that.

But it is a very and some readers have said it's quite insolus, and I'm fine with that because like he's hot, she's hot.

They're both single, Like she's having a time, like why wouldn't she?

You know, Like again that's always my thing of like why wouldn't she?

So, Yeah, writing it was really hard.

It was one of the last chapters I wrote because I wrote this chronologically, so with it being towards the end, it was one of the last chapters that I wrote.

Yeah, it's difficult because, as somebody reads it so much, you think it would come easy, but actually didn't.

I wrote it shut my laptop and walked away, like I could not go back, and I just like shut it, stepped away and was like I need a break.

I actually edited that.

There wasn't much edit in that at all, not necessarily because I think, oh, like I was doing so well and it was so good, but I just couldn't bring myself to keep going back.

But that's so fair.

I think it it is it needed to be, like it is what it is.

I actually do really enjoy it.

And I love it and I'm really happy with it.

Is like I just you know, put it in there and like that'll do.

I always knew that it was going to happen the way it did.

I wanted it to feel like this just building so much that it kind of isn't like a you know, there's not much talking, I guess is the way to say that they're both so pent up and not just actually but like just emotions are so high, tension so high that they just needed it, you know, they like they needed the distraction and that was yeah, and that was it, and you know, incorporating the things that I do two things, particularly without giving too much of a spoiler, one of them actually know I can say this because I say this out loud, like I say this on social media, like this magic involved, and that was like a given.

I knew that that had to be involved.

But then the other sort of thing that's involved, I knew that it would be really contested.

Some of my beta readers were like, or don't know I feel about this.

I don't know how I feel about that.

Is it a bit not necessarily cringey, but just like there's a lot of logistical things and I'm like, at the end of the day, guys, it's fantasy, right again.

I wanted to read the book I wanted to, so I wanted to write the book that I wanted to read.

So I stuck with it and I really love it.

People might think it's a little in celestie, but I mean, if there was like a seven foot redhead tattooed whitch in front of me, what else are you going to do?

What are you going to do?

I was listening to one of yours and Sam's episodes and you were talking about I don't know which book or sort of that you were speaking about, but it was you were basically talking about the fact that they just have sex all the time, and it's because they're battling and it just makes them really horny and they just end up like going off the battlefield and like doing that.

And I think when you're in this sort of high tension situation all the time, you're bound.

To read to release.

Yeah.

I don't I can't remember what that is.

The only one that comes to mind is from Blood and Ash by Jennifer arm and Trout, and in the second book, not a spoiler, but there's like a battle scene and then they like, like, we need to do it quick in the middle's batsy and they go into an abandoned carriage.

Yeah, it's the second fucking from Blood Nash.

I love it because I don't know what I just I think sometimes people, particularly in fantasy, as much as I like there to be realistic things that you can relate to, I think sometimes people do try and put too much real world logic behind it.

And the reason why I read fantasy and I seldom read anything else.

I've read like three contemporaries in the last year, and that is it.

Like I'm a fantasy reader.

Do I want to forget?

Like I want to forget the world around me?

I want to immerse myself in this book.

So no, of course that isn't something you're going to do, Like if you just had a massive argument with your family, You're not going to find your partner and be like, do you want to you in the bathroom?

But why can't you in a wield with his drive?

Exactly way, it's good escapism exactly and that that scene specifically is very satisfying to read.

I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I thoroughly enjoyed the use of magic in that, and I'm really excited for more from you before we dive into some quick fire recommendations from you.

And what do we have to look forward to with book two?

Or you're giving us nothing?

I can give you a little bit of something.

I mean, I'm in the throes of writing it, so it isn't finish.

However, it is pretty much outline provides and I don't decide to go off on something crazy, and you know, my head is still be like, what are you doing?

What can we.

Expect from book to you?

I can say without too much.

I mean, again, if you've read book when, it probably doesn't come a surprise.

But Book two is one hundreds and Enemies to Lovers.

I mean, I feel like I can say that it's definitely you know, whether that means it's for non and Dylan, I can't say.

But I can say that enemy still Lovers is very much a big feature in it.

What else can I say about Book two?

I think we do get a lot of answers.

There's also a lot more heartbreak.

And all I can say is if Book one's cliffhanger felt like, oh my gosh, I need the next book, then I think Book two is gonna, I think, for me, surpasses it.

Oh my god.

Yeah, I've always known the ending of each book, like the beginning and end of each book has always been in my brain.

And the ending of book two again, it's one of those ones that my editor was like, okay, you know, and I feel like I went with my gut in book one.

I'm going with my gut in book two.

And all I can say is just be prepared.

Oh my god, I cannot wait.

I'm so excited.

I have absolutely loved chatting to you today, Bay, But before I let you go, I'd love to get some recommendations from you, because you are are to see experts.

What have you got for us?

Oh?

I mean obviously Akatar.

I mean everyone talks about it, and I know it's very over recommended, but like, I think, for me, what I love about it is it's the for people who maybe loved reading when they were in their teens and then kind of like I want say, fell out of love with it, but like was struggling to find books that gave them the same emotional feeling that some of like the Ya Fantasy did.

I think Akatar is the perfect balance for anyone wanting to consider fantasy without getting too overwhelmed by it, because it's a very soft magic system.

It's a lot more romance heavy without people maybe realizing, you know, the court system is robust but not over complicated.

It's got some phenomenal character acts in there.

I mean Nasa Archeran's character Arct to this day is my my all time favorite as a Nesta Gurley.

Like you know, so I always recommend Akatar.

I mean Daughter of No Wheels by Chris A.

Broadbent is like a lot of people, you know, surp Into the Wings and I love Serpent.

I love those books.

But Daughter of No Wheel's trilogy or the War of Lost Hearts trilogy is like Chef's Kiss Fantasy high.

Read this, my god, this is so good.

The MMC in that Max is in my top five MMCs of all time.

Start outstanding.

Well.

Also, I'm looking at my shelves.

Oh, Penn Call Spark of the Ever Flame, the Kindri Kuer Saga a delight.

If you've just finished a guitar and you're like, what do I read next?

Read Penn Call Raven Kennedy plated Prisoner series.

It's a finished series, six books, king my just retelling Chef's Kiss so good.

The Sacred Stones trilogy by Kate Golden so A Dawn of Onyx, a Promised Perado, and a Ragin of Rows completed trilogy so good.

And I do sometimes like dabble in a bit of ya.

I'm a huge fan of Holly Black, so I love the cool Print series.

I'm actually going to a sign in next week.

I'm so freaking excited.

I know.

And The six of Crows by Lee Bardugo six a Crow's Cookie Kingdom.

I've not read the first threes.

You don't need to read the Shadow and Bone trilogy, but the Sixer Crow's Crooker Kingdom duology is just so good.

I mean, I've literally got like a thousand years so I could go on, but.

I'm genuinely obsessed.

These are such great recommendations.

I haven't read, is it Lee bard Do go lebar Do go.

Yeah.

And I've heard so many good things.

I feel like it's just a name that keeps propping up.

So I definitely need to get to those books.

I'm lacking very much, Bae.

That's okay, because there's so much for you to read.

I could go on.

I mean I'm looking at my I trying to turn this without like showing all my Oh, I'm going to show my awful bags in the background I do washing those chelseas that die for I mean, that's only like one corner of it, and I'm in the middle of the redoing my office.

It's just like a bomb sighted the moment, and bags and stuff gorgeous.

We've got recommendations for days of that.

No, You've given us so many good recommendations.

And think for sure if people want more recommendations from you, they can absolutely head on over to yours and Sam's podcast because there are so many recommendations.

I don't think they're gonna like you both for how big their TBR piles are going to be.

They're not going to be thank you for that, sorry.

They are going to fall completely in love with you both because you're both so brilliant together and so funny.

So I will pop a link in the show notes to head on over to being Sam's podcast, which is a pod of smart and Wingspan.

Is that right?

Yeah?

Oh my god, Oh my god.

I was panicking then that was getting wrong.

Okay, a pond of smart Wingspan, and I will also pop a link of the show notes to grab yourself as a copy.

Listeners of Doors sort of Stone, which is such an incredible, gripping, epic book and you're gonna love it, Please come and let me know once you've read it, because I'm just really excited to chat to more people about it.

B where can they find you on socials?

I am on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, B dot a Dot Pepper author and yeah, that's me amazing.

Thank you so much, Faith for coming on the podcast.

No, thank you for having me.

It's been the best.

Thank you so much.

And for our listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, please don't forget to review and subscribe, And if you want to give us a follow, you can do so at a pair of bookends pod and Instagram, and at a pair of bookends on Twitter from TikTok.

That is all we've got time for.

Thank you so much for listening.

Thank you again to day and goodbye,