Welcome to a pair of bookends, the book Club you can Carry Anywhere.

I'm your host, Hannah Matt Donald and all we bookend in the conversation with some of the most exciting voices from the bookish world.

On today's episode, I'm thrilled to be diving back into the world of romance and romanticy with author Iman Hiririkia.

Her latest novel, Female Fantasy, is just the tonic to pull us out of our seasonal depression.

It's fun, it's sexy, it's empowering and heartwarming, and I absolutely gobbled it up.

Previous guest of the pod, the iconic BK.

Borison that calls female fantasy decaden and dreamy.

This one is for the romantics, and she's not wrong.

Author of Female Fantasy, Ammon Hirikia is a writer and award winning journalist Born and raised in New York City.

Imman writes about sex, relationship, identity, and adolescents, and her work has appeared in Vogue, New York magazines, The Court, top As, Bizarre, and Cosmopolitan, to name a few Emmon is also a Forbes thirty Under thirty on Arae and is the best selling author of two previous novels, a hundred other girls, and the most famous girl in the world hates Chat all about her new novel, Female Fanta say, welcome in mom to a fair Offucans.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so excited to chat.

I always blush when I hear that quote from Eggs because dreamy and decadent.

It sounds like she's describing the most delicious slice of cake you've ever had, you know, and who doesn't want the bookish equivalent of a slice of like chocolate exactly exactly.

I feel like this book is exactly that I like I said, I gobbled it up, I loved it, and I am not you know, I kind of stair towards literary fiction and contemporary fix like that's very much my bag.

But you know, thanks to the podcast, I get to broaden my horizons and try outloads different genres.

And I have really been dipping into romance and.

Romancey in the last year and I've been having so much fun with it and just absolutely loving it.

And I have so many questions for you.

But before we get into your book, I do like to stop by asking what you're currently reading.

Okay, first of all thank you so much.

Like I know a lot of authors like to play it cool, I've never played it cool in my life, so really think I.

Really appreciate the kind words.

I love this book so much.

I never gets old getting to talk about it with.

Other people, So I really appreciate it truly.

And yeah, it's funny because I'm a huge romance reader.

I talk about that in my author's now also, I'm a big reader period.

I read a ton of literary fiction and I and this is going to make me sound like the corniest, cheesiest salesman of I am.

But I actually like to tell people that even though this is obviously the novel for the romantics, as Beck said, I do think that if you are not formally a romance reader, you will get a lot from this book because what it does is because the meta narrative, it makes the case for why romance is so critically important while simultaneously tricking you into experiencing two different story lines, so it works.

On multi levels.

It works for you are a diehard romance reader and a romance skeptic.

In my opinion, what am I I'm like, So, now that I've said that, what am I currently reading.

So I am right now rereading Quicksilver by Kellie Hart, which was a huge romanticy novel of last year.

I believe it was originally self published big book talk sensation, and then the it was purchased and then reprinted by a traditional publisher.

Sure, and I'm reading the reprint right.

Now because the sequel, Brimstone, came out last week and I was so excited and I went in so hot and realized immediately that I forgot all six hundred pages of this book.

Which.

Fantasy readers will feel my pain, that first one hundred pages where they might as well be speaking.

Latin, you have no idea what.

Anyone is talking about.

I felt that to my core.

So I'm in the middle of my reread.

I'm having so much fun.

And it's been a while since I read like an epic fantasy, so it's been nice to I don't know, go back to my roots, in touch with my inner child, write in time for I am in the States, so write in time for Thanksgiving, one of our national holidays.

But yeah, I'm super it's I'm having so much fun with it, and it's the perfect thing to subsequent my last week reads, which I had a huge, huge, huge reread week last week.

I read I reread.

Five of like my favorite rom coms of the last few years.

I reread two Alie Hazelwoods, Check and Mate and Love Theoretically, which are I think my two favorites.

I reread You Again by Kate Goldbeck, which is a When Harry Met Sally Retelling, but it's a lot like snarkier and very bisexual, which we love.

I did not know this, and I'm such a fan of When Harry Met Sally, so.

I gotta check out book two.

There are two books I always recommend for fans of When Harry Met Sally.

One is You Again, which is just like It's Chef's Kiss in terms of if you love like a Morley Gray like slightly unlikable not only actually female main character, but also male main character, a few people that you just have such good chemistry and you genuinely don't know how they're going to make it work.

You've got to check this out and then exit lay In, which came out two months ago.

It's a novella published with eight three one stories that's also When Harry Met Sali Retelling, only like one hundred and fifty pages.

That one is totally a little bit different, like we're talking Golden Retriever MMC devastating subplot that like I came totally blindsided me.

So definitely check that out.

And then I said, I reread five Oh Ready or Not by Carabaestone, so good, the first book that made me realize, actually, don't hate accidental pregnancy trope.

This is the first book, honestly to make me think that if I were to accidentally get pregnant tomorrow, maybe it would all be okay, gorgeous New York.

Novel, really funny.

And then I, oh, I reread Heated Rivalry because it's a mm hockey romance and.

One of the OG's.

I know that hockey romance has become the most popular sports romance sub genre, but I love this book and I'm so excited that its adaptation is dropping this week.

In the States, it's going to be on HBO.

I know in Canada it's going to be on Crave.

I'm not sure the UK, but I think that this show is going to be huge.

I think the edits are going to sweep.

I think it's going to be all anyone's talking about.

So anyway, big reread week for me.

As you can see I read.

I love this.

The more book recommendations the better.

And I love that you've brought up an adaptation because I'm about to start a mini series on the Pod that is dedicated to booked screen adaptations.

So I'm inviting guests on to to read and watch with me.

And you know, yes, please come back, come back and do that with me.

I would love that.

That would be amazing.

I mean, you listened a couple of authors there that I've not got to yet.

I know it is almost blasphemous now to say that I haven't read in Alie Hazelwood.

Yeah, yeah, I haven't.

I've got but it's impressive because she publishes like every week.

Yeah, good job of how it's like whack them all?

How did you know?

I know it's so bad.

I have got deep end.

I haven't got any of the others.

So I feel like I need to try that out first, because it's the one that's been stut on my TBR.

My cousin was like, how have you not read this yet?

Like?

How have you not read it?

Please take this off me.

So I've took that off my cousin.

But then once I've read that, I'll try the ones that you said.

Okay, so Deep End, I feel like you should know deepend is probably Ali's kinkiest love.

But I will say that, like if.

You read a lot of erotic romance, it's not that kinky, Like, oh, okay.

I think that there are two groups of people.

Groups of people that were used to Ali's previous work that were shocked by the spice in it, and then people that are used to reading like QB.

Tyler erotica.

Who were you know, unimpressed by spicy?

It was me.

I thought it was perfect, and I actually I so funny enough.

I read Deep End on a flight to London, start to finish and going.

To surprise my best friend from university for her thirtieth birthday.

And what a first of all, what a book to read on a plane.

I was going to the bathroom every five minutes second.

I literally downloaded Wi Fi and texted my husband being like, I really think you should read this book.

It does such a good job of demonstrating how like communication can be used to discuss like boundaries during like exploration of BDSM and subdom relationships, and he he was like, Hi, are you are you in the air, But I really truly like that's how excited I got reading it, So definitely check it out.

Let me know what I will.

I'm just gonna get a message late one night.

Yeah, if you ever just you're ever just in the mood to dedicate like three to five hours of your.

Life in one go to something, make it.

Make it a deep end read in February.

Do it when it's getting dark at two pm, you.

Know, yeah, I mean it's perfect time.

Yeah, I can get a little glass of red wine.

I can get there.

I love that we're on question number one by the way, Like I'm I know, I know, you don't need questions.

I'm not even started.

I'm so excited for.

All these book recommendations from you, and I am just thinking now about the show notes afterwards are just going to be like I have had it before.

I have had it before where somebody's given that many recommendations that it caught them off on Apple podcasts, and I feel like that's going to happen with you.

I mean, it's my fault.

It's honestly my fault.

I read too much and I get too excited.

You know.

My biggest problem is that I am better at selling other people's books than my own.

On my own tour, I would sell copies of me.

I was reading kiss Bathlets, which if you're not a romance reader, you're not ready to hear about kissing the Batlos, and people were listening to me, you like, shout about this and they bring up and wait, And it.

Was, honestly like I felt like I was preaching to.

A captive audience.

I just I get too excited.

But Kierre, I'm going to do this for you.

Connected to female fantasy, I am such a fangirl that, like I can't help it.

Like when I love something, I love something so enthusiastically that I can't pull myself back.

I love this.

Enthusiasm is absolutely everything.

And I do feel like this novel is very much a love letter to the romance community, both read and writers alike.

It definitely feels like that.

But I mean, I was gonna ask you what got you into romance?

And I feel like this is just going to set you off in a hole.

I know now it's dangerous.

No, I'll make I'll make it quick for you.

Honestly, I think you take it back to the Scholastic Fair Honestly, when I was probably theter nine, I started reading the Princess Diaries book series, which a lot of people are unfamiliar with the books because they've seen the movie.

But I'll have you know that Meg.

Cabot, the author of The Princess Diaries, is my queen, and I've read everything by her and she if you pick up a Meg Cabot book, you're gonna say, oh my god, that's where Emon got her voice from, because it was.

It was one of the first real, you know, pieces of literature that I connected with on a fundamental level, and I really felt raised by the characters in her books.

But I picked up the second Princess Diary's book because I had already seen the movie.

I thought I didn't need to read the first.

I was wrong.

I went back and read the first and.

Just fell so deeply in love with Michael and Mia, who if you have read the books, Michael makes it to the second book.

In fact, he makes it to all the books.

There is no prince from a far away land in Genovia in the books, and it is like really a true epic Ya romance, and just made me giggle and want to hide under my covers and clap my hands and curl my toes and all the good stuff.

But more than that, more.

Than I was connected to the love story, I felt like the strong female character healed something inside of me, Like at that point in my life.

I was feeling very, very lost.

I grew up first gen Middle Eastern American in New York.

I always felt like my identity.

Was a little bit fragmented between the two different worlds that I came from.

And I really used the character of Mia Thrumophilus as a roadmap for what it was like to.

Be an American teenager.

I ate up every single pop culture reference and then would go and research it and watch it.

And I felt like the slang and the colloquialism she used I tried to adopt in my own language, and it was like I had a big sister telling me everything from how to insert a tampon, who to vote for, and the love displayed in that series, not just romantic love, but also self love and familial love and you know, platonic love.

It really gave me.

Hope that things are going to get better.

Of course, so many of the adults in my life condescended towards me and told me that I should be reading books that are considered more serious and prestigious.

And thus came my.

Indignation and my stubborn nature kicked in, and I doubled down so hard and said, I, you know, I don't, in fact, I want to read commercial fiction for the rest of my life.

I'm never going to be guilty about the guilty pleasure reading that you.

Tell me I shouldn't do.

And so it's all deeply connected, truly incredible.

No, No, I love you hearing about all of that, and I think it's so important, and I really really loved your author's No.

I thought it was just so amazing and so beautifully articulated.

And it really irritates me that somebody had the audacity to, you know, like it was a teacher that kind of put you down and said, no, you can't, you shouldn't write about that, or it's silly or frivolous or whatever, you know, whatever words they kind of use.

It's just very dismissive, and I don't like that.

I think any kind of reading and love of books is a really positive thing that should absolutely be encouraged.

And I loved it.

At one point in the novel.

I think you describe it as as romance being like women literally, Oh my gosh, how do you word it?

Now, it's going to really irritate me.

Like handhold, how holding.

Giving women giving other women a literal helping helping hand.

That's it, that's the bit.

Yes, I thought that was such a beautiful way to show like how much we can learn from from romance books.

And it is exactly that.

It's it is a whole community in and of itself, and it's actually really empowered women, whether that be sexually or in romantic relationships.

And I think that's a really incredible thing I'm getting on myself.

My my big red flag as a person is that I think all systemic issues, at least in the United States can be traced back to our puritanical roots and how messed up our sex education system.

Yes, I think that from the time we were young women in marginalized people are systemically disenfranchised by withholding knowledge about their bodies and their feelings and their urges and their wants and their needs.

While cis straight men are empowered to take to you know, to pleasure themselves, to seek out more power through sex, and it just it both like baffles me, but at the same and I was going to say it both baffles and saddens me.

But through writing this and through.

Researching for this, and of course I have my background in sex and relationships also informing a lot of this, a lot of this writing, I realize that it's actually not so surprising, because ultimately it's a method for keeping us confined to a patriarchal framework.

Because if we're all ashamed and scared to talk to each other, to form community, to coalesce, to come together, and to fight the system that like benefits from ving us quiet and oppressing.

Us, then nothing ever changes.

So even the teacher that spoke down to me from a young age, like she is a part of this system, like she is also being oppressed by the system in the same way that women that slept shame each other are pointing the finger because they think that if they divert attention away from their themselves and show other women as you know, sexually promiscuous, that no one's going to notice that they are googling things at two in the morning that they shouldn't be.

And that's because.

Like women are taught that like curiosity is a slippery slope, whereas, of course we're curious, no one is giving us access to any information, and the only way that we can empower ourselves is by arming ourselves with our own research.

And what is the oldest way that.

Women were able to conduct this research?

And I'm not talking decades, I'm talking centuries.

It's always been the written word.

Yes, print magazines and romance novels, but I'm talking about bodice rippers, harlequin novels, the books that are at the bottom of the grocery store that people like to stick their noses up at.

But not just that.

Letter writing diaries, women's accounts of their own sexual curiosity and adventures, you know, sex written from the female perspective for other women.

The female gaze.

And this is always how.

Women have sort of started to feel like they're allowed to not take what they want, but to look inside themselves and then act on what they already need.

And it really touched me when I realized that the only thing that this is like an age's old practice, and the only thing that's really changed in the last five to ten years that has started to flip the script is that because of online spaces, we have finally started to fight back by being loud and proud about the source material about books that we found that have helped heal us, books that have found that have helped us explore like kink and pleasure, and you know, books that we have found that have helped us understand our boundaries and also set standards for what we should expect out of relationships.

And the ripple effect has been unbelievable through the outward expression of these resources, the chipping away at propaganda.

We've formed book clubs, We've formed romance only bookstores, we have formed you know, romance podcasts.

It's like it's for the first time ever we are taking back our power through members and you know, try as they might, people can't hack this one.

Like it's very, very difficult to game the system.

It's just true.

Publishing is trying their best.

But ultimately, romance is a billion dollar industry that has like existed for a very long time, and we won't be told like what we should read and like what.

We do connect with.

And I find that to be so unbelievably cool.

And yeah, I think it's it's funny working and publishing.

I really thought that I would finally be like joining a group of like minded people who were dedicated to fighting these power imbalances.

But the same prejudices exist inside the industry.

So I think that female fantasy, in a lot of ways was expressed as you know, a defiant It's a it's a real it's a celebration and a love letter, yes, but it's also a middle finger.

It's a show of defiance to these critics, to the people that still are so quick to dismiss romance readers as lesser than or as delusional or as perverted.

Because it really does make me sad that an entire genre of literature can be looked at as escapist when the very act of picking up a book is inherently political and there's no.

Way of it.

Yeah, that's absolutely right, And I mean you've articulated that better than I ever could.

And I think you're so right in everything you've just said.

And I think your your protagonist and Juni is that how I say your name?

Juni?

Yeah, she's amazing, and she is absolutely a spokesperson for why we should be reading romance books.

You know, she's telling the men in her life that these books are important and they should be recognized as such.

Thank you, I thank you so much.

I love Junie.

She's my lover girl, She's my fangirl.

And my favorite thing about Juni, honestly is that she says what all of us wishes you could say.

I think, even if you're not a big romance reader, how many people have experienced their young being yucked?

How many women, especially have been teased or made fun of for liking something that connected with them and anything, any, any phenomena that is popularized by women is often dismissed as being basic or cringe, which is so frustrating, and obviously, you know it's a part of the same patriarchal framework.

And how many times have you been subtly condescended to or teased or flat out made fun of for liking something and you take it because you just don't know what to say, and then two hours later you're you're just sitting at home and all of a sudden, that would have been the perfect comeback.

I wish I could go back and say that she.

Be in.

Exactly the shower that hits you and you're like, fuck no.

And that's what I love about Juni is that she does that in the moment.

Yeah.

Throughout this book, people challenge her, people try to make her feel bad about herself, and she stares them down and fights back, and oftentimes they walk.

Away stuttering, staggering.

They apologize because they're shocked because they don't expect her to stand her ground.

And that's what I mean by she's an unapologetic fan girl.

And she refuses to let anyone make her feel small for you know, believing in love, for getting comfort from happily ever afters, because she's experienced that in the past and she survived it and she came out stronger on the.

Other side because of that.

She's decided that no one is going to dull her shine or you know, sink her optimism.

And I appreciate that so much.

That's why she's that's my that's my girl.

She's amazing.

And there's a line, there's a line that I note it down where she says the implication that I can't distinguish fact from fiction is both misogynistic and idiotic.

And I was just like, yes, that was so many lines of you know, have thoughts that I was noting down like I wish I you know, was brave enough to just say this to somebody.

It brind's my ears so much that men especially think that because women are read so much romance, they now have these diluted, unrealistic expectations for what life looks like, just because all of a sudden they are untapping these these sources inside of themselves about what it would look like to you know, be loved, to be respected, to be appreciated, that they truly expect for a six' five shadow ed addy to like knock on their door on A.

Sunday i'm sorry, you just because you Worship doune doesn't mean that we think that you expect sandworms to be discovered in the.

Desert oh my, god the double.

Standard it's.

Crazy not the sun.

Words you all.

Know we all know that.

Guy, hello it just it's.

Again but once you step back and take in the full, picture you realize that all of these smaller, conversations these snide, remarks they all contribute to a larger, agenda and most of the time people don't even realize that they are a cog in like a much larger.

Machine, yeah so shout Out junie for doing the.

Worst shout Out.

Junie the only way to fight back if it's if it's small comments that create this death by a thousand cuts, effect then it will be small.

Retributions, yes the fight fight on our.

Behalf, Absolutely and she she has had a really difficult, past you, know to get to the point where she's able to step into a power to speak up for, herself to know the standards that she holds the people, to and to want better for.

Herself could she tell us a little bit about her?

Past and, ACTUALLY i Know i'm reading out lots of your own quotes back to, you but this quote was really important to.

Me and she, says it's.

FUNNY i now recognize she's, sorry she's talking about a past.

Relationship she, says it's.

FUNNY i now recognize his behavior as emotional.

Abuse BUT i couldn't tell how bad it, was how bad it truly, was UNTIL i had some distance from the.

RELATIONSHIP i had never wanted to call it THE a, word to admit How i'd allowed him to treat.

Me and that just really resonated with.

Me And i'm not going to get into, it BUT i had similar experiences and that whole you, know not maybe recognizing something as it is while you're in, it not maybe wanting to put that label on, it feeling, like, oh, well you, Know i've not seen this representation of abuse, before so how can that possibly be What i've?

EXPERIENCED i think It's, again it's another thing that there's a person out there that might read that and underst and that behavior to be what it, is and that will help.

Them so, Yeah i'd love it if you could tell me a bit About junie's background and how she's got to kind of where she is when we meet.

Her, well first of, all sending, Love i'm so sorry that happened to.

You it has happened to so, more so many.

More women than we, realize so many more people than we, realize because oftentimes abuse doesn't look like what we've been made to think that it looks, Like, yeah popular, media we retroactively realize that it's abuse years, out or sometimes even before it's too.

Late and, AGAIN i had spoken to and worked with a lot of writers and interviewed a lot of women in similar kind of domestic abusive relationships in my sex and relationship, days and became very clear to me that, there's you, know this idea that abuse starts out with the, bang but it's actually much more of a quiet.

Deutent SO i really wanted to demonstrate that.

Here juni is someone who grew up as a person of color in a very, small very homogenous.

Town she as a result of, that deals with a lot of, microaggressive you, know xenophobic remarks and also just some flat out racism.

And bigotry when she's.

Young for the most part because of her, optimism because she has this unflailing faith and happily ever, after is in, love she is able to hold on to a part of.

Herself but she also starts to use love a bit as a, crutch this idea that it it doesn't matter how many people hurt, me because there's going to be someone.

Out there who will love and accept.

Me but then something.

Traumatic happens to her towards the end of her high school, days and when she goes off to, college she has this idea that maybe in order to be loved the Way i've always dreamt of being, LOVED.

I need to.

CONFORM i need to.

ASSIMILATE i need to dull my.

SHINE i need to darken the color in my, world AND.

I need to sort of make myself.

Smaller and something very sad.

Happens when she does, this she's immediately rewarded for it by someone who claims to love her but is taking advantage of her both her trusting, nature but the fact that she is using love as this sort of belief, system as this source of, faith as a.

Crutch he immediately sees this in, her and he gives her everything that she thinks she wants at, first and then, slowly little by, little.

Starts to take it.

Away and because she spent her entire you, know, childhood holding onto this hope that all of the hardship she's experienced will be worth.

It when she finally finds this like epic true, love it takes her a really long time to realize what's happening to.

Her and you, Know i've previously said that like it takes, her you, know years.

Before if she feels brave enough to, leave that's not the, truth because.

You, know a lot of people can't leave when they want.

To is the is the.

Is the truth of, It and a lot of people's rock bottom is it necessarily the end because they're not in a safe.

Environment but When juny does finally get out of this, relationship she's feeling really lost she's.

Feeling, really she's in a dark, place AND i think part of that is because you, know we all have different like belief systems that we live our life according, to and with hers stolen, away she doesn't have a north star.

Anymore and it is at this moment that she stumbles into a bookstore and finds this book series that resonates so deeply with.

Her and not only does the love story and the relationship make her realize that true love looks like more than a hot body and flirty, comments it looks like true agency and, Respect but there's something about the main character's journey that she she realizes that another big part of true love is first loving yourself and finding that inner strength.

And being willing to fight for.

Yourself so it's, yes she falls deeply in love with this fictional, character but she also sees herself in the heroine's, journey and little by, little this book series pulls her out of her depressive, state and she starts to get back in touch with the parts of her that she made small in order to appease this.

Man and she.

Starts to find community and talk to other people who have had similar, experiences and she starts to write, again and a mass you, know it's exactly WHAT i was talking about, before real power and.

Numbers and over time she not only like finds herself, again but she has faith.

Again and although you'll see see in some, ways she hides behind this new found this new found source of inspiration For rappily Ever, after and uses it as a tool to keep herself from getting too close to anyone again because of how deeply she's been.

Hurt she also realizes something very, important which is that she's never ever going to let anyone make her feel like she should shrink herself to allow them to feel big ever.

Again and that's.

Where her you, know her absolute which like her absolute reverence for, romance her absolute indignation when it comes to the defense of the, genre and her unapologetic love of fandom comes.

From that's why she's making these that's why she's doubling, Down that's why she's fighting back against.

Critics it's because she's already experienced the worst.

Of it and she's come out stronger on the other.

Side AND i know THAT i can really relate to parts of her.

Journey i've spoken to a lot of readers who can relate to her her.

Journey and my hope is that if someone is maybe in the earlier phases of her journey and they read and connect with her, character that they will know that it's okay to reach out for help and it's okay to form that.

Community so that's my that was my intention with her.

BACKSTORY i am grateful that you connected with.

It, OH i absolutely.

DID i think it, was you, know really wonderfully.

Represented AND i think you know you you wrote about it so well THAT i know you said that you you know you had sensitivity.

READERS i think that's what you call.

It and you you can really tell that you took the time and the care with that, storyline which always means a lot as a.

Reader AND i want to ask you the she stumbles into this, bookshop as you, said and she meets this bookseller called is It Rona?

Rona And rona is the one that gives her this gift of this book that's going to change her.

Life AND i was really curious if you had A rona that has given you a book that's that's changed your life or that has you, know really meant a lot to.

YOU i had a wonderful high school librarian WHO i really.

Loved shout Out Miss, crowe who really.

HELPED i think she saw THAT i loved, reading regardless of whether it was academic or, literary and encouraged me to keep, going WHICH i really.

Appreciated AND i also had other teachers other.

Than the one THAT i slander in this, Book Miss.

Nas it was, yeah really?

Agree sorry NO i in The, okay in the, ACKNOWLEDGMENTS i, say let's you, know let's call it even who really encouraged.

Me to keep writing and keep.

Reading one specific teacher named Missus lem really comes to.

Mind i've had many incredible relationships with independent booksellers who are my favorite independent booksellers and library, ooh best people you meet.

In the, world BUT i never had WHEN i was.

YOUNG i feel like a almost like a fairy godmother of a fella similar To.

Rona BUT i will say That i'll give you a little tea right.

Here rona is named for.

A i was a songwriter WHEN i was, younger AND i had a vocal teacher Named rona who was in a lot of ways like an adult THAT i trusted WHEN i was young and, vulnerable who helped me feel seen and.

Heard so ALTHOUGH i haven't seen or spoken to her in a very long, TIME i Named rona for.

HER i love thank.

You so the fun thing about writing books is that you get to make little inside dukes with yourself and leave yourself little easter eggs everywhere and no one gets but.

You AND i do that to keep myself thoroughly.

Entertained and that's Where rona came.

From and then Ends Will books is a fictionalized version of a real life independent.

Bookstore one of my favorites In mystic is Called Bank Square books And Bank Square.

Books it's insignia is a.

Whale there's like a big whale tail outside of the.

Store AND i love this, book love this, store AND i do have friendships with.

A lot of the booksellers that work.

There shout Out, isabelle And isabelle like, SHE i, mean she was gonna come back To mystic to interview me for WHEN i was on tour For Female.

Fantasy she's been such a wonderful support to.

Me so, honestly like the mishmash.

Of Bank square And rona created this big ultimate.

Moment BUT i also thought of it as, again this is a book that like very reverently parodies.

Fantasy, yes how many people can.

Recognize the trope of like the oracle having a prophecy and the stowing it upon our mighty warrior before they go up on their.

Quest LIKE i wanted to create a moment, where almost in a mystical, way this woman came out of the stats and the light shone and the angel chorus, saying.

And she, said this is for, you go.

Forth and in that way there's there's a little bit of a wink and a, nod a little bit of a satirical comedic moment as.

Well SO i, MEAN i loved the satire of this and how you parady it kind of feels like a negative.

TERM i don't know.

Why it feels like that the way for.

Me but it's not.

Let's say homage image to.

A man to, say perfect great word that that is what you do in this.

Book so the book is sort OF i don't want to say too, hard but it kind of alternates and, sections doesn't It between the book that has meant the most To, juny her favorite, book which is A tale Of saltwater And.

Secrets is that?

Right?

Yes?

Yeah out of that How how.

Did your, editors your, age and your publisher feel when you came to them and, said, Listen i'm doing two books in.

One, HONESTLY i don't think they realized how EXTENSIVELY i was going to write a tale Of saltwater in secrets you would not messing.

About.

YEAH i always kind of knew WHAT i was going to, do If i'm being honest with.

You BUT i do, think like now THAT i look back on my, PROPOSAL i do THINK i made it sound like the excerpts were going to be a lot, shorter whereas in, reality this this really is two halves of one of.

Whole this is sort of like fifty.

Percent this can't be mare, romanticy it's fifty percent this like.

CONTEMPORARY i like to call it a Romp, colm but it's one hundred.

Percent these two stories.

Slowly weave in and out of one, another then come together and build and build and, build then literally climax at the same.

Time they do they, do AND i think that and they really inform one.

Another SO i do think that there are two house of, this one whole wholehearted love letter.

To, romance to genre and to.

Vandoms so, YEAH i don't.

Know IF i don't know if tricked is the right, word BUT i definitely feel LIKE i underplayed the extent to WHICH i was going to literally write the.

ROMANTASY i, MEAN i.

Don't know how you made that.

Work it worked so, well AND i felt like you gavels BECAUSE i was thinking, like, oh are we not going to get enough of each each part of the, Story and actually it was perfect the amount that you gave.

Ols the only thing THAT i WISH i got an insight too was the tail.

Play, Yeah i've heard a lot of people talk about.

That All i'm going to say, is if you want to write.

A little you'll pay fan fiction and put it ON ao.

THREE i would love.

THAT i would absolutely love.

That so, YEAH i mean pretty pretty.

Hilarious but, YEAH i, mean, look here's the.

THING i am a reverent lover Of i've used the word reverent.

Way too much in this, interview but it really is the perfect.

Word i'll, say, LIKE i am a passionate lover Of mermaids and mermaid and sire and, lore And i've been trying so hard to Get mermaids back into popular pop culturals Like geist because we had a really gorgeous golden era of, mermaids and like when we Had hto And.

Aquamarine on the makes and then they kind of.

Disappeared they trickled out of the conversation in lou Of Twilight mania and were rolls, fires and it's, like where are the?

Mermaids like?

Please because WHAT i love about.

Mermaids specifically is you get the juxtaposition of like whimsy and then like dark seductive atter because the mermaids are all light in air and, water and then you've got the, dark sinister vies of the, sirens like Sexy, yorks like the deep deep, Sea so, like where did they?

Go we need them?

Back and THEN i realized when writing This, hannah that it's because it is so hard to figure out how mermaids, fuck and that's, why and that's why that we're not having this.

Breakthrough they have to shipped otherwise it's just not, Sexy like it doesn't, work it's so.

Annoying but we don't have those issues with.

Mermaids with us were wolves and.

Vampires their anatomy is.

Safe it.

Works you made it, work so you made it.

Work but, honestly if, okay maybe if enough people buy this, book my publisher will let me.

Do like a bonus.

Scene.

AMAZING i would love to do.

That it would be day.

Day.

Now you just MENTIONED ao three And juny is a copyriter by, day fun fiction writer by, night and this, community as you've, said is hugely important to.

Her was this sort of not to the fun fiction.

Community is that something that you've been involved with, yourself or is was this just kind of a nod to the bookish community as a.

Whole, No I'm i'm a huge.

FANFIC i love thing.

Girl.

Yeah, no definitely from, experience and it's been nice hearing that it was fun for other fanfic community members to feel like there is a book that both like got, it like was in on the joke that laughed with them instead of laughing at, them which is one hundred percent my, intention but also really celebrated the parts of fanfic that are so, special which is that fan fiction is a community that, was you, know championed mainly by marginalized, people especially members of the queer, community and the purpose of fan fiction is to put people back into the narrative that don't formally see themselves in popular.

Storytelling IN au, writing you, know anything can.

Happen you, know two characters of the same gender can fall in love that would never fall in love on the, Page and SO i really adored having the opportunity to talk about why and how that's so special and like the band of misfits that find each other in the Assass hive are salty.

Girls and, YEAH i MEAN i felt the same way in high.

School in middle, school, honestly LIKE i, WAS i was up ON ao three and fanfiction dot, net and still to this, DAY i love to supplement my traditional my my very very SERIOUS tbr with long epic works of fanfic and short one shots.

Like love are you allowed to?

Say do you want to?

Say what kind of fun?

Fiction?

Oh, yeah, Yeah i've talked a lot about.

THIS i got my start and.

Fiction, actually it all comes back to my cabot in The buffy The Vampires Layer.

PHANTOM i was a Huge buffy, fan.

AND i Discovered buffy through my cabot Because Princess mia' is a Huge buffy.

Fan, yes AND i was a member of The buffy, community which Is spike And buffy very problematic, community but also one of the og blueprints for like real enemies to lovers, yea and very much informed my taste.

In romanticy moving.

Forward BUT i love being a part of that community and it was definitely like my gateway into reading other fics and now to this, day like IF i read a series and love, IT i immediately the first Thing i'm doing is checking to see if there's been fan fiction written about.

It it's.

Obsessed i'm absolutely.

OBSESSED i will just take a couple more minutes BECAUSE i have to ask About.

NIKO i feel like it would be remiss of me to not mention.

Him he Is juny's brother's best.

Friends there's a road trip that they embark on where all manners of chaos is?

You, yes where did that come?

From?

WELL i am a child of, chaos LIKE i am known if.

NOT i love writing chaotic, fiction and if you've read my previous, WORK i always.

Kind of chaos dump in my.

WRITING i JUST i.

LOVE i love a book where everything goes.

WRONG i find it incredibly entertaining and.

Funny AND i don't like to take myself too seriously When i'm writing.

FICTION i think that there's a time and place for.

That BUT i am on a personal mission to make fiction as fun as.

Possible but the idea for the road, trips specifically where everything goes wrong IS i wanted the events of the contemporary story and as can't be away as, possible to mimic the events of our romanticy.

STORY i wanted to give our beautiful Heroine judy and her noble Steed, neco a worthy opponent and a battle battle, wills and also a physical battle to.

Fight AND i ALSO i feel like any great hero's journey involves trials and tribulations and, tests and it is only when you have triumphed over all of these complications and adversaries that you can then feel like the.

Conquest has been.

Earned you get to the end of the, road you reach your pot of, gold and it feels like a worthy.

Win you slay the, dragon and then finally you get the.

Princess all of the hilarious tropes that exist in fairy.

Tales and lore and, fantasy SO.

I wanted to create a, similar, chaotic, campy hilarious journey For juni And nico to go.

On BUT i had only two goals for this for this.

Trip one goal cram as many recognizable romance tropes and romance of genres into this road, trip which was the most fun thing.

Ever and then two Whenever juny had to fight her way out of the situation or you, know get closer to her, destination she had to use skills that she had specifically used to learn sorry from READING A tale Of saltwater In.

Secrets to do.

It and my hope, was because you're reading the excerpts OF A tail Of saltwater And secrets along With, nico you will recognize that decisions and actions and conversations that happen in the fantasy book then in act and inform and influence the, actions conversations decisions made By junie in the Contemporary so we the reader understand what's, happening and we're so much so in on her thought, process WHICH i thought was really cool and also what an incredible way to underline the point that she makes To niko right before that everything starts going, wrong which is that romanticy books are so much more than happily ever.

After, yes they're a happily ever, after but you can learn so much from reading.

ROMANCE i tell people all the, Time i'm a romance.

Reader tell me, Why LIKE i speak a Little russian could explain the difference to you between theoretical and experimental.

PHYSICS i know the rules of.

HOCKEY i could tell you how like the rodeo system, works like all stuff That i've learned from reading.

Romance so IF i want to do, yeah.

EXACTLY i wanted to both like celebrate and acknowledge.

THAT i love that and, yeah like you, said she gets me co read in, romance which is the.

GOAL i would love to find out what is next for you BEFORE i finish off with a.

RECOMMENDATION i really appreciate also this conversation with Super.

Fun i've hopely so.

Much thanks for having, Me thank, you thank you for loving on female.

FANTASY i JUST i poured so much joy into these.

Pages so and.

You really feel, that you really feel that as the, Reader yeah for.

Sure.

Yeah it was just it was Very it was healing for me to write so's it's nice to hear that people were able to experience that alongside.

Me what's?

NEXT i am currently wrapping up edits for my fourth, novel which knock On, wood will be coming out next year around the same.

Time it is such it is so much.

Fun it IS i have been telling people that all of my books are getting more and more and more, romantic AND i think that the next, one in some ways is even a truer romance Than Female.

Fantasy it, is as are all my, books a total chaotic rollercoaster, ride very funny and full of, heart and will have a strain of social commentary running through.

It AND i.

Don't know how MUCH i can, say BUT i feel LIKE i can tell you one thing about.

It it is a time loop.

Novel so you're a fan Of Groundhog day And Palm, springs you are going to love this unbelievably can't be chaotic like rollercoaster ride of a time loop.

Novel two, yeah two unlikely people that find themselves in, it so very excited about.

It and ALSO i will say that if you are missing some of the characters In Female, fantasy and even further back some of the characters in my last two, books you will definitely notice some familiar names and in some cases faces that pop.

Up oh my.

Gosh definitely check it.

Out AND i can't wait to be able to share more about.

IT i finally got to that place and edits where everything is starting to click and sing and makes sense And i'm getting really excited about.

It it's a special one for.

Sure oh that so.

EXCITING i actually can't wait to read.

That and we will have to find a way to get you back to chat about that one when it comes.

Out, Lastly i'm on BEFORE i let you go and thank you so much for.

THIS i do like to finish by asking for a.

Recommendation so is there anything that you haven't already recommended that you would like to recommend for the?

Listeners?

Yeah absolutely, WELL i feel LIKE i recommended many books, Already BUT i will, say.

Is this going to come out before the?

Holidays?

Yes, okay it's holiday, season so got to shout out Good spirits by.

B K.

BORSON i THINK i really want to read this of the.

Season and if it's if there's still foliage where you are and you are looking for a late a tumbnel, READ i will shout Out Josh.

RICHARDS i think it's Called It's different this.

Time it's a debut, novel really special second chance.

Romance i'm set.

In New york in the, fall and if it makes you, Happy, JULIE i Think olivia is her, Name and this is sort of like a Nineties Gilmore Girls Vibe fall Rom com so those two got to give cred where credit is due for.

Watching i'm really excited For Heated, rivalry which drops next.

Week i've been.

Watching i've been Watching Maxton, hall Which i've really been loving as, well Very Soaphy German The World Will Divide Us Forever rivals.

To lovers, show And i'm really.

Excited For Love hypothesis adaptation next year and The Every Summer after adaptation next.

Year so MAYBE i can steal you bock one of.

Those and albums of The.

Year Lily Allen's West End girl And So Good Audrey Hobert's who's The clown are the two That i've been listening to the most.

Amazing i'm obsessed with.

THAT i Love lily and your.

ALBUM i can't stop.

LISTENING i am obsessed With Pussy palace And modeline AND i just can't get enough of.

It have you got a favorite?

TRACK I, SO i literally just had my husband listen to the whole album in order BECAUSE i needed to freak out with someone about.

This AND i think That Pussy palace is the.

Standout BUT i think my favorites right now Are Dallas major and.

TENNIS i think are my two's?

Amazing?

Great?

Great so the whole thing is so.

Good you got to listen to it in.

Order, yeah it tells us such a comprehensive.

Story, yeah so.

Good i'm just so imatchining you telling your boyfriend About you need to listen to this.

Properly now understand it's Good on.

POLLS i explained the whole.

THING i actually, LIKE i dictated the whole.

THING i was, like, yeah here he says that he might need to get a, vasectomy so we are we safe to assume that he might have accidentally gotten And god, pregnant which was not in the terms of their.

Agreement and he was.

Like did you study?

This did?

You?

Like how do?

You how do you know so much about?

That i'm, LIKE i have no, LIFE i have no.

Life it's really.

Important, yeah like what else WOULD i be doing with my?

Time of COURSE i?

Know andm, on thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Today i've absolutely loved this chat AND i absolutely loved Female.

Fantasy for our listeners links to grubbyselves a copy or in the show, notes please go and buy yourselves, one AND i will also be popping links to all the money, Books ione's recommended today and her previous novels as.

Well thank you so.

Much, yeah thank you so, much.

GUYS i really appreciate all the support AND i hope you have a very happy.

Holidays, yeah it's happy holidays.

Everybody thank you so, Much and if you enjoyed this, episode please don't forget to review and, subscribe And i'll put up in links to follow im on in the show notes and you can also follow us at.

Pepaple Kens pod On instagram and At Purple kens On twitter and.

TikTok that's all we've got time.

For thanks so much for, Listening thank you againing on and.

Goodbye there was so much.

Fun