Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.

I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate about helping you master your animal training skills using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.

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Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant community and geek out with us.

And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this free podcast episode, as we explore new ways to help you supercharge your training skills, grow your knowledge and build your confidence so that you can craft a life that positively impacts every learner you encounter.

We will start today's episode where I'll be talking to one Adam Scandirani.

Adam is a skilled dog trainer passionate about helping dogs with really big feels.

Whether that's teenagers struggling with the world, dogs experiencing guarding or aggression, or sport dogs battling arousal or shut down.

As a Certified Control Unleashed Instructor and Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner, Adam blends science based training with deep empathy and creativity.

Using reinforcement based methods rooted in understanding each dog's unique needs.

They are also a vocal advocate for inclusion and equity in the dog world, teaching in both Arabic and English and mentoring other trainers and competitors of colour.

With experience across sports, behaviour and collaboration with veterinary professionals, Adam brings a rich multifaceted perspective to every case from competing in nose work and agility to helping reactive dogs thrive in sport.

Adam's work is all about connection, compassion and skill building for both dogs and their humans.

So without further ado, it's my very great pleasure to welcome Adam Scandirani to the show today, who's patiently waiting by.

Adam, thanking you so much for taking the time to come and geek out with us at Animal Training Academy.

Thank you so much, Ryan.

It is my pleasure.

I am so happy to be here today to talk to you and listen and gain some perspective as well.

Let's give some.

So I'm excited for you, the listener, to join us, whatever you're doing when you're listening to this podcast.

One of our community managers said they're going to be listening to the show on a dog walk today.

So I know a lot of you walk your dogs or you're driving your cars to a client's house.

Or if you're like me, you're putting your five year old daughter to sleep.

So whatever you're doing, enjoy the conversation that follows.

Let's dive in, Adam.

And I was hoping I love hearing about people's behavior odysseys, as I like to call them.

So I was hoping that you could share yours with us and take us back to where you first learned about animal training, about positive reinforcement, about behavior science and share some stories with us from your journey.

Absolutely.

I started as a hobby trainer in about 2012, training my first dog.

She was a boxer by the name of Sansa.

She was a pretty little Brindle girl who just came from someone down the street, you know, who was selling puppies.

We didn't know about ethical breeding back then in my family, in my household, and she turned out to be the genetic mess that she was, but her temperament was super solid.

And she was a perfect first dog to learn with.

And so she took me on my journey of learning about dog sports, she took me on the learning journey for behavior as well.

So I started professionally training, I started shadowing a dog trainer at the facility that I was competing and training for agility at and competing in at.

And we started doing puppy classes together.

So I started assisting with puppy classes back in 2014, really.

And I have been growing and learning ever since Flash, Flash Gordon, my second boxer, he is the face of my business than the the name behind it and everything.

He is the reason why I got as nerdy and as deep into behavior as I have.

He just was not answering to any of the the very basic knowledge that I've had learning through Sansa.

And I learned that although Sansa made me a very good, basic trainer, she did not make me as great as I thought she did.

And Flash instead tore me down humbled me and then built me right back up again to where I feel I am in a better position to help people now than I was prior to Flash.

They share with us a little bit about Flash Gordon.

Why were they I mean, you just told us unpack for us a little bit more.

I'd love to hear some stories about why Flash Gordon is the reason that in your words, you got as nerdy as you did about behavior science.

Absolutely.

He is he was, of course, to be reckoned with.

He he recently passed away at almost nine years old.

He had a sponic mass and the quality of life that he had, he just would not be able to sustain with further intervention.

So we decided to euthanize him recently as his quality of life began to decline.

But prior to that, he was my my greatest teacher, my greatest ally, my best friend.

He had all sorts of big feelings as a young dog, an adolescent.

He he embodied the big feels that we were discussing earlier.

And they would come out in very barky, lungy behaviors.

And more often than not, they would come out as redirected barky, lungy behaviors at me.

So there was a lot of body slamming, a lot of clothes tugging, a lot of just aggression in my general direction.

So I became very, very, very good at handling that type of aggression as it manifested.

And I never really quite got as far as I wanted to, again, with you with, you know, the older we're talking about almost 10 years ago, the older school positive reinforcement training that we kind of all grew up with.

Just it never was enough.

And so I needed more, I needed more, I needed deeper knowledge.

And so I sought it out.

And that's where I discovered people like Sarah Strumming, who taught me about behavioral wellness as a holistic picture, that we should really take the welfare of dogs into consideration and the wellness of dogs into consideration, first and foremost, before we start working on training, I discovered the hard way that pain can cause a lot of unwanted behaviors in our dogs.

I learned that when Flash had 13 teeth taken out of his mouth at the age of four, because his mouth was just overcrowded, and he had extra teeth, and just there was not enough room in that mouth.

And so 13 teeth came out, almost all of them on the right side of his mouth.

And within two weeks of recovering from that, he was a different dog.

He all this work that I had put into him all these control unleashed pattern games and protocols, all of these skills, I started to build all of them, just suddenly, he was able to access.

And he was able to just say, Oh, this thing that you wanted me to do for all these years, I can suddenly do that now.

Oh, you didn't want me to bark and lunge at that dog walking by 20 feet away?

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I can eat food instead.

I guess that's fine.

And so that really hit home for me the importance of medical welfare for our clients.

I have a million more stories that I could share.

I have a million more anecdotes that I could share.

But really, he pushed me to learn to view behavior through the context in which it exists, if that makes sense.

At this past year's clicker Expo, Dr.

Susan Friedman said something during her talk that was really profound, and it hit me, even though it shouldn't have.

But anyway, she said, behavior, talking about behavior, without discussing its context, the context in which it in which it exists is meaningless, essentially.

We have to talk about context in order to understand behavior.

It doesn't just pour out of us like a faucet.

And yeah, yeah, exactly.

And so that has allowed me to look back at a lot of flashes behaviors, like hearing that mulling that quote over and everything has allowed me to look back at his behaviors and the context in which they occurred.

And I started to learn that maybe flashes reactivity and his big feelings were not what I always thought they were.

He was not actually an aggressive dog.

He was a super hyper social dog who was not having his social needs needs met in an appropriate outlet, if that makes sense.

And so it wasn't until I mean, I know, I just heard this quote now, but it wasn't until I started years ago, being able to offer him that social outlet that he needed, that he was really, really able to start thriving.

I did not see that as such a need that he needed until I started meeting it.

Every individual is different.

And that seemed to be something really big to him.

And then hearing that quote and going back and mulling over this journey with him, I was really able to see how impactful that was.

Most of his behaviors came from that need.

And as that need became fulfilled, and as we addressed that real pain in his mouth, those two things together, in addition to teaching him all the skills that he knows, or knew, helped really truly heal him of that reactivity that he was experiencing and displaying.

And allowed him to just kind of go, Oh, yeah, there's no big deal.

I don't need to make it known that I like this dog that is in front of me or that I need them to go away, as the, you know, situation told us.

He just was able to just exist calmly in the world.

And I think that was really important for him.

What I love about our behavior odysseys is we unfortunately live longer than a lot of our learning partners and our teachers, our non -human ones.

And so what a great honor to be sat here today, being able to learn from a teacher and a learning partner who are no longer with us.

So let's dedicate this episode to Flash Gordon, and the lessons that you, the listener, are going to benefit from based on the teamwork of Adam and Flash.

I'm interested, I love this talking about behavior without discussing the context that it exists in, is a fruitless endeavor.

Behavior doesn't just sprout from a faucet.

It's something that I talk about a lot when working with green trainers or people a little bit earlier on in their journey, or even people a little bit later on in their journey, because we, I think, can lose, not everyone obviously, but some of us can lose sight of how behavior works adequately.

Sorry, adequately, appropriately, that is the name of Susan's business, behavior works, but we can lose sight of that.

We can lose sight of that because of the industry and conversations that happen within our industry online and in whatever communities we get involved in.

We can lose sight of it because of our own narrative sometimes that we create about the behavior of our learners, about the narratives that we are invited into from our clients about their animals behavior, and it takes discipline, I think, to navigate the complexity of the emotions that come with those narratives, both for ourselves and our clients.

Respect that, allow people to have their space, to honor the experience they're having, but then also simultaneously stand with the science.

Help us understand a little bit why like that, that was that particular Susanism kind of hits you seemingly at the right time, the right information.

I mean, you know, you might go back two years from now, listen to that same talk and take away something completely different, but for now it was that.

Like what was it about that?

Unpack that a little bit more for us.

Yeah, absolutely.

Just like I was there to receive Sarah Strumming's knowledge and experience at that time that I received it, and I was able to help and grow from it.

I got a very, very, very basic understanding and was able to then extrapolate from that and continue on.

When I heard this particular Susanism, I love that term, I'm going to use it, it struck me from that same lens that Sarah kind of instilled in my mind's eye of welfare and the holistic approach.

Because part of the context that we don't often take into consideration is that health component of the dog, like what is going on inside their bodies that is contributing as a distant antecedent towards their behaviors.

And sometimes we can see behavior as seemingly erratic and unpredictable when it makes perfect sense to the dog with what's going on inside a dog's body that we don't often have insight to without doing a lot of invasive tests and diagnostics to find out what's going on.

I just sent a client, a brand new client of mine to their veterinarian so that we could get some extensive x-rays going on and maybe start a pain med trial and things like that.

Because I have some suspicions that we should be looking in this direction.

And after speaking with their vet, they quite agree that this is definitely something we should be looking into.

And that was something that Flash taught me.

He taught me to look here first.

And I do believe that we are staying in our lanes when we are working with the veterinary teams to be able to do this, as long as we are working with veterinary teams to be doing this stuff.

And we are not diagnosing, we are not doing anything.

But it is in fact, within our lane to go within our wheelhouse to go, hey, something doesn't look to be something is not going right in your dog's behavior.

And in my history, in my experience, we have seen this linked to pain.

We know there are studies linking XYZ to pain if there are studies, etc, etc, etc.

To for this particular type of pain, you know, that's what I'm saying.

I know there are studies out there generally and whatnot.

But we and as long as we are working within our wheelhouse to help a veterinarian diagnose something, then yeah, sure, we are we are working within our lane, but it is not our job to do the diagnosing.

It is not our job to do the suspecting, things like that.

But we do have to look into it as a dissent and antecedent.

And so that's kind of where it hit me there of everything has context, including pain that is resultant of potential behavior, sorry, behavior that is resultant on potential pain.

And just for the listeners, whom a large percentage of and not everyone, but you the listener, you might fall into the segment of our animal training can be podcast listenership slice of the pie.

You're out there working with clients and your job, therefore, is to, in the perfect world, I know that before I say that people are living in certain geographical locations where this becomes a little bit harder to do.

And it can take time to build up relationships based on adding people to your air quotes team that not only have the expertise and skill to diagnose something like pain, but also that you as an individual human learner have a relationship, get along well with and can work in an effective collaboration with just because someone's a behavior vet doesn't mean that you and them are a good team in terms of your communication styles, et cetera, et cetera.

And so tell us with a flash of brilliance, Adam, your dog training business, got that right?

Yeah.

Are you out there working with clients with aggression?

I'm working with clients who display aggressive behaviors, like their dogs display aggressive behaviors towards other dogs, and then also dogs who display aggression towards their own owners, though that tends to be my wheelhouse.

And you have this unique position in terms of having gone through what you went through with flash.

I'm assuming things about you, so let's check that my assumptions are correct.

Like you have people in your network, locally behavior vets, veterinarians that you've built these relationships with that you can lean on, that you can ask for help for me.

And so the reason I ask this is because we have a lot of listeners and I make this assumption again, based on our membership and within our membership, excuse me, we have online community and within that online community, people can pose their questions.

And I would say one we get frequently is, you know, I have this behavior issue and I don't know what to do.

And our community, our helpful community members will jump in and say, hey, you should likely talk to a veterinary professional who specializes in behavior.

And the person might say, in my country, that's not something that's easily accessible or we don't have one in our geographical area.

And so one is that and then two, it becomes really hard for the client because the client's like, yo, solve my problem.

And, you know, I've got a high risk situation because this dog is using behaviors that we label as aggression to get what it needs.

But they don't understand the benefit of veterinary behaviorists, they've talked to their vet and their vet's like, nah, it's fine, you know, and no disrespect to those vets, but there's potentially missing that specialization.

What do you have to say to the listeners in terms of navigating this?

You might be in a place where you've got your team, that's great.

But I know that there's a large proportion who haven't built that yet or don't know how to communicate with clients who may put up some resistance to what our listeners can clearly see is a need for that perspective to either rule it in or rule it out.

Absolutely.

So I was once in that position where I didn't know where to go and what to do and how to build this network.

And I leaned really heavily on my network of other really good, competent trainers who know better, who have been doing this longer than me and who also do this type of training, this holistic approach really, really, really, really well.

I lean on them and ask them for their opinions on people.

I have asked Kiki Ablon for information on veterinary behaviorists that she trusts in the Chicagoland area, for example.

I have a veterinary behaviorist in Maine now who I really like to talk to.

I met at a workshop one day and we just got to talking.

And so now I really like who they are as a person.

Our communication styles match up.

I really love their wheelhouse of knowledge and they are really, really well connected with other specialties within the hospitals that they work in and then other places.

So this one veterinary behaviorist is in Maine and I send all my local people here in Massachusetts up there within a three hour driving distance.

I love being able to talk to her.

I like sitting in on these sessions.

If both the veterinary behaviorists and the client allow, I can sit and I can zoom in and listen and hear what is going on.

And if there is something that I can clarify on, I can do that if the time and space allows for it, things like that.

And then I also recommend talking to your own vets as much as possible.

So if you have a problem and you're not quite sure, your vet says everything seems to be fine, things like that, I would maybe send in an email, something that they can take their time to mull over and be like, hey, this is what I'm seeing.

This is why I went to this community of trainers to ask about it.

And this is why they seem to be saying to talk to a veterinarian about it.

This is what we think we're looking for.

What are your thoughts on that?

If this is something you're not comfortable doing, do you have someone you can refer us to so that we can do some of these stuff?

Usually, I have had really, really, really, really good luck with veterinarians, even those who don't always believe in what I have to say.

As long as I am open, kind, making sure that I am staying in my lane and not being pompous about it, things like that, we are asking them to double check their work.

It would behoove us to be kind about it.

It would behoove us to be nice about it.

And it would behoove us to be professional about it as well.

So that is how I have built up my network, is by talking to my veterinarians, seeing what they have to say, listening to other veterinarians in Facebook groups here and there and everywhere, listening to what other trainers in my cabinet, in my list of trusted trainers see who they have worked with and really like, and utilizing my network of people.

So if you don't have a network of people, it's time to build one.

And I will be happy to be part of that network of people.

And one other bit, and I'm thinking of a specific case now, which is why I want to push a little bit more, because I know that the individual I'm thinking of has a network.

I mean, they've got, it's arrogant when I say this, but I don't mean it like that.

They've got me and therefore they've got access to Animal Training Academy and therefore they've got access to community.

And still they're dealing with a client who's, excuse me, is resistant to exactly what we're talking about, getting a pain med trial, for example, going and the individual non-human learner in question might be euthanized because of behavior issues.

And this is a large emotional toll on this trainer.

And we all know that this is a hard industry to navigate in, whether you're a dog trainer, especially if you're a veterinary professional, whether you work in the zoo context, is there's so much more to dog training and animal training than training.

One of those is dealing with situations like the one I've just described.

So that's going to be part of it as well.

Do you have anything to share on that component of this issue we're talking about?

Yeah, I'm curious.

Is it the client themselves that is opposed to checking things out medically or is it their veterinarian?

So that is where I would parse things out a little bit.

My understanding of the situation, which may be wrong, and if you listen to the show and you think, oh, maybe Ryan's talking about me, firstly, appreciate that we have a great relationship and that I can do that.

Secondly, my understanding is that, and I say this, all of that, because maybe I don't have the exact details correct, is that the veterinary has been consulted.

The veterinary is not somebody who, within our New Zealand framework, has that behavioural specialist component of the products that they offer, basically, or the clinic that they work in, whatever it might be for this individual.

And therefore, this person, without having that credential within the New Zealand region, which is different than other parts of the world, has said everything's OK.

And so there's the suggestion that that's great, but there's potential value in bringing in other professionals who do have this credential.

And that's where the friction is.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

And I'm wondering if we can get curious with the veterinarian on hand and ask if they would be willing to do a vet -to-vet consult, for example.

That might be something that we could work on.

And they can communicate with a veterinarian somewhere in the world, over via Zoom, Google Meet, somehow, to just have a discussion about the case about this dog, have a consultation, and just go to town, see what this professional who does have the credentials might show that they need.

Hey, we could be using an X-ray, we could use an MRI, we could use all of this.

And then if that stuff is available for the client or for the veterinarian to help with the client to get, that would be the ideal world.

And sometimes, unfortunately, we just live in situations that aren't the ideal world.

I know I myself will be soon dropping this bombshell on this podcast when I haven't even mentioned it to the world yet.

But I will be myself moving to a country where I will be having very limited health care for my animals.

And I am trying to decide how I am going to handle this in my own mind, because I don't know.

I don't know how I'm going to navigate this new path.

So I will have better personal insight to a question like this in a few months, potentially.

But yeah, bringing in other potential professionals on a call could be helpful, something like that, if we can, if they are open to it.

Yeah, and I just want to, just a thought just crossed my mind, and I think it's an important one to add, and I would invite your perspective or any thoughts you have on this for that individual, or if you're a listener of the show, might find yourself in similar situations.

And I'm sure if you do this long enough, you will find yourself in situations that share at least some similarities with what we've just talked about, the importance of looking after yourself in that space.

So I just wanted to add that and invite any comments from you before we move on, Adam.

Oh, it's so important to take care of yourself.

And that's sometimes half my job.

Have you done a cortisol reset on yourself lately?

I think finding balance is where it's really at.

So I am from the Middle East.

I am a Muslim.

And one of the teachings that we have been raised with, at least that I have been raised with, is that the greatest of two nations is the most moderate between them.

And what that just means is moderation is key, balance is key.

All of that is key, including in all aspects of life.

And so if we are getting to the point where we are burning ourselves out to care for our dog, to the point where we are unable to recover from that, that's not OK either.

So we have to be taking care of ourselves.

We need to fill our own cups before we can fill anyone else's cups.

And I think in this particular, like in a case that is so big and heavy such as this, I really want to prioritize that almost more than anything else.

And so if continuing through is hard, if it's too hard, if it's too much, then the decisions that the owners of these dogs, of this dog, depending on if the decision is euthanasia, then I think that is a very good decision for them, too.

It's so hard to make.

It's so hard to do.

And it's not my place to say one way or the other, obviously.

So, yeah, we have Juliana D Willems on the show.

Nice.

Depending on when they get released, they might be the episodes previous to this or they might be coming out after.

But we talked about therapy and she bravely shared that she went to therapy.

And that just floated into my mind as you were talking then, the benefit of therapy.

I feel like we all need therapy.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Therapy helps me every single day in every aspect of my life.

And I actually speak with someone on a less regular basis now, but for a while there on a fairly regular basis who specializes in dogs and feelings around dogs and stuff like that, her name is Andrea Harrison.

She's based in Canada.

She does a lot of work with kids.

She does a lot of work with people and their feelings.

She does a lot of stuff like that.

And I first took a course with her through Fenzie Dog Sports Academy called Love the One You Are With.

And it was hard.

It was the hardest dog training course I've ever taken.

And it was basically therapy.

And I learned to accept Flash, who is the dog I took it with.

I learned to accept him for who he is and meet him where he's at instead of wishing him into being someone else.

I took the teachings from that course and I passed them along to my clients.

I am a huge fan of the Burnout book by the Nagoski sisters.

That has been a huge help for me.

I also try to implement it with my clients.

I think closing the stress cycle and being aware of those stress cycles and how emotions can run through us is really, really important.

And I think the Nagoski sisters do a really good job of describing those things in very digestible ways for the average person.

So I really lean heavily on that book.

Amazing, I haven't heard of those people in that book before.

So thank you for that.

I want to circle back to, first I just want to acknowledge that in 2025, I think every podcast we do, people mention others whom have been impactful on their work.

If we were to give an award for the most mentions in 2025 so far, I think that would go to Kiki Yblanc.

I think she's mentioned in every episode, so shout out to Kiki, we love her.

Go Kiki!

The other thing you mentioned that was really important that you learned from your time with Flash of the million stories you could tell was meeting his needs in an appropriate context.

Do you want to talk to that a little bit more, what you mean by that and what that specifically looked like, build on what you've already said, what that specifically looked like for Flash?

Yeah, so specifically his social needs, that is something that I spent the longest time parsing through what that looked like for him.

He started his life out, I was a dog walker when he came into my life and I also ran through that same company.

I helped run a playgroup and so it was all our dogs in our own private dog park, like we knew everything that was going on, the ins and outs, it was a pretty well run playgroup with a good ratio.

I really appreciated it.

And he came to work with me almost every day.

And so he got a lot of his big, boisterous boxer adolescent feelings out by playing with all these other big, boisterous adolescent dogs.

Some of them were older and they taught him what's why and he listened.

Boy, did he listen.

He was really good at that.

And he also got to play with a bunch of young dogs just like him.

And he ran and he ran and he played and he never learned what it looked like to just take a break.

And so he was your typical, as they say, daycare dog.

He only knew how to play big and boisterous and he did not understand what calming signals look like.

He did not understand what it was when another dog needed a break from him.

He did not understand how to tell another dog he needed a break.

He lacked all those skills, essentially, that he needed.

And so through the help, like with the help of Sarah Strumming and with the help of other trainers local to me and my network trainers, such as like they're all smaller named trainers than that.

But like people like Connor Kingfisher, people like Ranca, their name is skipping me at this moment.

But anyway, I'll get back to that.

But anyway, through the help of everybody, we were able to kind of remedially socialize Flash.

I think it was Strumming that coined that phrase remedial socialization.

And we essentially taught him through the use, through the use, through the like facilitative learning of older, much more appropriate dogs who were good with other dogs, unbothered by other dogs, appropriate with their communication styles with other dogs.

Using them, we were able to help Flash learn to develop those skills on his own as well.

So first it started out with really, really savvy dogs and their handlers and owners.

And then it turned into as my skills grew and my observation skills and knowledge into me taking out dogs for social outings as well.

So for adventure hikes, things like that.

And I called it a remedial socialization program where I took all these dogs with all these big feelings, learning how to interact with each other and help them learn to interact with each other.

By the end of this, Flash turned into I call him my chief remedial socialization officer.

He he was the dog who if I wanted to know if a dog was going to make it at all in this program, he would be the first dog I introduced them to.

He would tell me this dog has what it takes or not.

And he would tell me pretty immediately.

He was very good at just sizing them up in that moment.

I remember one day I brought a Shiba Inu to our group for the first time ever.

And she was such a kitty cat.

I loved her and he was so excited to meet her because he loved this particular group of dogs.

He loved how boisterous and how energetic they were.

And he ran right over to the Shiba, got right up to her, took one look at her and backed away slowly.

He knew that she did not want to be messed with and he did not bother her.

And he, in fact, helped facilitate other dogs not bothering her.

So if he saw two dogs playing, getting a little too close into our space, he would kind of come in between them a little bit and create space, give her an opportunity to move away.

He did a lot of really good looking out for the group that I didn't know how to do at my on my own.

And it was only through watching him do it that I was able to figure it out for myself and learn how to do it, if that's really cool.

So that's what I mean when I say like he was one of my greatest teachers.

A lot of the stuff that I know is truly just because watching him helped me understand what I was seeing.

It sounds like an amazing journey.

So thank you for allowing us that window into what can't adequately help us understand the journey you guys have been on together.

But give us a small window into it.

In your work now, how much would you say, and I want to talk about this a little bit, and exciting opportunities that are coming up that are linked to this in some capacity.

Your Karen Pryor Academy certified training partner, having been through that program myself, I therefore appreciate the level of skill and competency and knowledge that you have.

You're also a Certified Control Unleashed instructor.

And I say that with great admiration and excitement about that program and wanting to engage in the future myself.

Can you share a little bit with our listeners about what being a Certified Control Unleashed instructor involves?

Absolutely.

So that just means Leslie McDevitt oversaw my work and saw that I know what I'm doing in terms of understanding and teaching the pattern games and other core concepts of Control Unleashed to other people, to a group of people, and also to dogs.

So I was able to demonstrate that for her, for her to certify me as a Control Unleashed instructor.

I'm also one of the TAs for this program.

So I help mentor people who are coming into the program to become certified.

And what that involves is just reviewing video, asking questions, understanding depth of knowledge, sending them in the right direction if they need a little bit more work on this particular thing or another, you know, things like that.

And how this applies in my work is that I, having worked under Leslie and working with her so closely, I work with her on a regular basis.

I am able to take the concepts, ask her the questions.

I'm very glad that I have that, that access to her to ask her, like, what were you thinking when you created this particular thing?

And then I can get the core concepts from those games, the core key components of them and then apply them elsewhere.

So that is how I used Requested Approach Training, RAT, to help Flash navigate the trial environment when he decided that the crating areas were a little too rough on him and it was hard for him to walk that gauntlet of crates barking at him and everything.

So we started using Requested Approach Training.

I had him hold an object in his mouth for as long as he felt comfortable moving through the space.

And if he dropped it or asked me to take it from him, we would either retreat or stay, kind of put where we were if it was safe enough.

But he always knew as long as he was carrying that thing, he was headed to his crate and in his crate was a snuffle mat.

And so he said, I can do that.

And so that's how I started out with Control Unleashed, was using this, at the time, very new concept.

I think this was back in 2019, pretty new concept of Requested Approach Training to do this fairly complex piece of of behavior work with him in terms of the crating areas and trials.

I like using Control Unleashed as both management and a kind of operant counter-conditioning protocol or tool.

I love using them when I am stuck in a, like literally stuck in a place and I cannot move for triggers all around me and my dogs.

I like throwing in an up-down pattern game, for example.

I like throwing in a one-two-three to help dogs get through scary situations.

I have done a webinar twice now for Clean Run called See You and the City, Control Unleashed and the City, and it's all about how I used Control Unleashed to help Flash, who was terrified of the city, learn to feel more comfortable in his own skin.

I never got him to poop in the city, but I got him to pee in the city, and that's a huge accomplishment.

I'm actually going to be, I work so closely with Leslie, I'm going to be working with her in the future again.

I'm currently working with her on a project that we are going to be presenting for everyone at the Aggression and Dogs Conference in Charlotte, North Carolina, later this year in late September.

So I'm very much looking forward to that.

It'll be my first conference of that size for me to speak at.

I am only a little nervous and a whole lot of excited because I know I have Leslie on stage with me and we will, she will cover me, she will cover me where I can't, where I start losing it.

I know that.

But we are excited to bring topics to you that have been near and dear to our heart in this past year.

We will be talking about decompression cues and kind of more functional reinforcement and how to, you know, include Control Unleashed in some of that and how we can make it look a little bit different for different dogs and help them just enter a calmer state of mind.

Well, congratulations on that.

I mean, when you say it'll be my first conference of that size, I would hazard to say it's one of the North America most, well, with regards to our audience, you know, again, this podcast listeners, I hypothesize who you are because I don't know you personally.

I wish I did.

That'd be amazing.

Based on our membership, based on our members, based on what they post in our community.

And I know Michael Shikashio's Aggression in Dogs conference is a big conference, a big event in the calendar year.

So it's your first conference of that size, but what a size.

I mean, what a way to be recognized and appreciated and to do that and to get the and to do that next to Leslie McDivitt.

I mean, that's amazing.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

What even is my life?

And I'm so grateful to Michael Shikashio for giving me this opportunity.

It's going to be it's going to be so cool.

I am so excited.

I just hope I don't have to picture people in their underwear to feel more comfortable.

I've never actually done that.

Have you done that?

I don't think it actually works.

I can't see how it would work.

Like I wouldn't like when I'm presenting, I want to be focused on what I'm presenting.

I just feel like that would make that really challenging.

I don't see how that would help.

That's what I found to help me better is to actually know the material I am speaking on.

Quick note for those who are listening, you might want to go and see you in person at the conference or they might want to watch you online because I know that there's multiple opportunities and ways to attend that event.

Can you remind us when it is?

And you'll just go to the Aggressive Dogs, maybe you'll know more than me, website to find all the links there.

Absolutely.

So if you go to AggressiveDog.com over on the top right corner, it'll say conference and that will give you all the details that you need.

It's going to be in Charlotte, North Carolina, September 26th through the 28th.

So that's a Friday through a Sunday.

And there are two tracks.

There's a live in-person track and then there's also a live stream option.

Both are still available.

But I know Michael was saying that in -person tickets will be selling out soon.

So if you are in the U.S.

or can make it to the conference and want to, I definitely recommend that you go ahead and purchase those tickets as quickly as you can.

And if going in person is not an option, but you still would like access, you can live stream, you get access to the recordings.

I believe it is for a year after the fact.

You are going to hear some pretty awesome speakers such as Kim Brophy, Sarah Fisher, Trish McMillan, Andre Yu is going, Leslie McDevitt as well.

Yeah, amazing.

Well, thank you for sharing so much about that.

Big shout out to Mr.

Shikashi Yo for his ripples.

I think we're nearing the end of people's drives on their way to their consults or the end of their dog walks.

So let's wrap up this for part one of our conversation today.

Adam, we are going to invite Adam back to talk about the art and science of animal training in part two.

But before we officially wrap up, can you just share with everyone where they can go online to find out more about you, what you do and get in touch?

Absolutely.

You can find me at flashofbrilliancedogs.com or you can find me on Facebook looking under Adam Scandarani.

I'm sure we'll link everything in the show notes.

Instagram, you can find me at Flash of Brilliance Dogs.

I am one of those people who has an Instagram page for each of my dogs.

So if you want to follow any specific dog's journey, you are more than welcome to follow one of them.

You can find them from my business Instagram page.

So I have to ask one more thing before we wrap up, Adam, because I can't even manage my own Instagram account, let alone multiple.

What is your secret?

Way more time on my hands than I actually need.

It's all part of, in reality, it's all part of my business marketing stuff.

So if I'm sitting down to do a post for Flash of Brilliance, I'm sitting down to do a post for one of the other dogs too.

Amazing.

Well, I look at people like you and awe and wish that I could have the required variables in my life to make that happen.

But this has been so much fun, Adam, on behalf of myself and everyone listening, we really appreciate you coming on part one of our conversation today.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

It's been a pleasure and I can't wait to be back.

And thank you so much for listening as well.

This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off from this episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast show.

We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.

Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.

Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and keep improving.

And don't forget, the path to growing your skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this episode.

Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive membership where you will find a community of trainers just like you.

Together, we're making a huge positive difference in the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.

Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay awesome and remember every interaction with an animal or human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.

We're here cheering you on every step of the way.

See you at the next episode.