Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.

I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate about helping you master your animal training skills using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.

Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the vast challenges you encounter in training requires a comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.

It's common to face obstacles and rough patches on your journey that can leave you feeling overwhelmed and stressed.

Therefore, since 2015 we have been on a mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.

We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding their knowledge, boosting their confidence and maximizing their positive impact on all the animal and human learners they work with.

We are excited to do the same for you.

Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant community and geek out with us.

And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this free podcast episode as we explore new ways to help you supercharge your training skills, grow your knowledge and build your confidence so that you can craft a life that positively impacts every learner you encounter.

We will get started on today's episode where I am thrilled to welcome back to the podcast for part two of our conversation, the awesome Adam Scandarani.

And if you haven't listened to the first part of our conversation, you can find it in the previous episode on whatever app you are listening to the show on.

In that episode, we explored Adam's journey and getting started with positive reinforcement animal training and what led her to current work with a flash of brilliance dog training.

And it's definitely worth a listen.

However, if you haven't done so, you are of course welcome to start here with part two.

We are still going to gain a ton of insights to help you grow your skills, knowledge, and confidence in animal training.

So let's dive in.

Adam, welcome back to the show.

We're grateful to have you join us again at Animal Training Academy.

Thank you for being here.

It is my pleasure to be here again.

Thank you for having me back.

My pleasure.

The pleasure is ours, a massive in capital letters.

Thank you.

And in this episode, I'm really looking forward to geeking out on this idea of the art and science of animal training, which for you, the listener, you might've heard mentioned in multiple different areas of our field.

For me this morning, I was reflecting back before we jumped onto record about where I first heard of this concept.

And I think it was, I was telling you, Adam, before we pushed record, I think it was from the US based primarily exotics trainer and head of the fantastic natural encounters incorporated Steve Martin.

And it was in an article from 2006 called the art of training.

And then when I Googled it this morning, trying to remember like where, like who did, where did I hear this from?

The name of an awesome conference also popped up organized by a group of trainers out of the university of North Texas called the art and science of animal training organized by a group called Orca, which I to the best of my knowledge don't think is still ongoing, but it might be wrong.

So when you mentioned this anyway, to me, Adam, in a conversation we had when we caught up last month that you wanted to dive into this, I was all in.

And we at the time threw back and forth a number of ideas.

And this is what you landed on that you most wanted to discuss.

Can you share with the listeners why you thought you wanted to use this opportunity to talk specifically about that?

Yeah, I would love to, I came to this conclusion because over my time as like over the course of my time as a dog trainer, as a professional dog trainer, who is also a millennial and scours the internet for all sorts of drama all of the time.

I love other people's drama.

If I don't have to be involved in it, I just want to consume it.

It's great.

Reality TV was made for me, except that it doesn't entertain me the way Facebook does.

But the point is I've come to learn a lot of opinions while scouring through Facebook groups and everything.

And I have learned that there are quite a few cultural shifts in positive reinforcement training taking place that worry me a little bit.

They are seemingly headed in the right direction.

And yet if you look a little bit closer, we're not seeing all the pieces of the puzzle that needs to be fit into place in order for this to actually be a good shift.

And that shift that I'm looking at specifically is this cultural fog that we have to give like our animals are captive animals and we know that our dogs are captive animals and we know that.

And so therefore we have to give them the best, most enriching life that we can.

And that is very, very true.

And also the ways in which we go about it can accidentally build in behaviors that we don't want.

A good example of how that looks is really, really sloppy positive reinforcement training.

If we don't know what the functional reinforcements at play are, if we don't know what the dog's motivators are, if we don't know what we're doing in terms of timing or if our observation skills aren't quite as high as we need them to be in this particular context in this particular moment.

And so it came to my, it came to me to mind that there is more to positive reinforcement training than just the science behind it, which is what people are trying to apply.

There's also an art to it and learning how to become an artist, I guess, is in and of itself, a journey it's in and of itself, a journey.

And it's in and of itself, what, where you have to go to kind of build in this idea of what we want to do for our captive animals in our care and give them that really good enriching life and give them as much agency as we can and provide them with as many choices as they can possibly handle, et cetera, et cetera.

And so that's kind of where it came to me.

I just really want to be able to give people a different perspective into what training can look like to be kind and effective.

I like reality TV as well, but I don't feel comfortable sharing the programs.

You don't have to, it's okay.

That'll be our little secret.

Me and my wife, sometimes we'll digest a series of something.

However, just I think there's value in discussing the, how do we say it?

The conversations that happen on social media.

I'm kind of like a hundred percent, not kind of like I like just avoid it myself for multiple reasons.

One, like running a business and being a dad, like and working from home a lot of the time, it's so challenging to have clearly defined boundaries for yourself.

And other members of your family.

And it's really blurry about where one stops and one finishes.

So it's challenging to, and there's an art in this as well.

And I think in developing the skills to be physically present as well as mentally present when you're, you know, left the office and that's true as well, if you're working away from home.

But, you know, I want to be like mentally present when I'm with my family.

And so I stay away from drama because I feel like that occupies my mental space for me.

And also like, just time.

It always like when there's like a significant conversation that's happening, a lot of it generally finds its way into Animal Training Academy because people are involved that are in our community or people want to share about it in our community.

So eventually I will listen to it.

But am I understanding that you're a little bit maybe on the other side of the bell curve to me?

You're like quite interested in reading and participating.

I'm not sure if those are two different things because we can have observers and we can have participators.

And there's no right or wrong in terms of who you are, who I am, who you listen to.

I'm just trying to understand, are you kind of like in the trenches?

Yeah.

So I am much more of a listener than I am a participator.

I used to be very big in the participating part back when I did not have as clear defined boundaries as I do now, back when I was younger and much more hotheaded than I am these days.

So yeah, once upon a time I was a participator and nowadays I'm far more an observer and I find it very important to me because it helps me also learn some of my audience.

A lot of these trainer fights that we're seeing on the internet that I label as trainer fights aren't actually happening between professional trainers.

They're happening between hobby trainers, people who are training their first dogs, people who are training their third dogs, but who are not often professional trainers or who are just starting out on their professional journey, much like how I was.

I am not saying that as a way to draw negatively on any of these groups of people.

That is not at all where I'm trying to go with this.

What I'm trying to say is it is often with people who have half the picture, if that makes sense, half of what is going on.

And so we need to have the full story, the full picture to be able to see what's happening.

And as our favorite person to quote, well, my favorite person to quote, Dr.

Susan Friedman says behavior is just a study of one.

And so that's kind of where I'm leaning with this is yes, we want to talk about our knowledge.

We want to talk about what we know and we want to talk about what we think is best for the welfare of the animals in our care.

And also there are different ways to go about it.

And internet fights are not the way I go about it anymore, but I still like to watch them.

I still like to observe them because I like to see where the mood is going with the people who I tend to, who listen to me as my audience, who converse with me as colleagues, who talk to me as clients, who all of these people on the internet are all potential clients for me.

They're all potential colleagues.

They're all potential friends.

They're all potential whatever.

So I would like to see where the mood is going.

It helps me assess where we are talking about in terms of like the big one recently that I was been mulling over is the credentialing bodies, for example, what do we want to do there?

And so I want to hear what people have to say.

I want to know where people are going with their opinions and it helps me understand them a little bit better and understand myself a little bit better.

So that's kind of where I'm going with this.

Yeah, they're all really interesting thoughts that make me, you've just gone, oh man, maybe I should be reading more of this stuff.

I'm not going to in 2025, but like what you said makes a lot of sense to me is what I'm trying to say.

And you used the word cultural fog earlier, which is another Susanism and that I think is an adequate one and a good one, adept, I don't know the word I'm looking for, a good one to describe what's going on online.

Do you want to share with the listeners who might not be familiar with that terminology, what you mean when you say cultural fog?

Yeah.

So a cultural fog is kind of just the culture around experiences going on around us.

So in terms of that, that's just my basic.

I did not look up actually Susan's actual definition of it.

But essentially in the dog world, in the positive reinforcement realm of the world, we have some ideas that we hold really strongly to about what is and is not good dog training.

And some of these things are cultural norms versus scientifically proven, in fact, kind of things.

And those are kind of where the cultural shifts tend to take place and tend to happen.

And those are the cultural fogs in which we have to kind of maneuver and work through to kind of either get out on the other side of or shift if some of them need shifting, things like that.

Awesome.

And I don't know if Susan has a specific article just on that topic or mentioned as part of a large article.

I'll have to revisit that.

But there's a whole suite of articles on Susan's website BehaviourWorks.org if you, the listener, wanted to learn more about that topic and a whole range of other Susanisms.

So we've got science of training and the art of training.

And I think there's different ways to look at the art side.

And when I started recording today, I'm curious if I had kind of a different idea in my head as to what you just described.

So let's check in on that.

And happy to talk about whatever is most valuable.

So you're talking more than just the mechanical application of the skills of training.

So you're talking more than just my timing, my reinforcement systems, understanding motivation, relationships, positive reinforcement, cue delivery, all of that kind of stuff.

You're talking more about being an operator than the industry as a professional trainer.

Am I understanding?

A little bit of both.

So I want to talk a little bit about the mechanics of training, your timing, your observation skills, your cues, all of that, and also how cultural fogs or cultural norms can affect your ability to hone those skills effectively.

So a good example for this would be one of the cultural fogs that I have is I've even heard opinions go as deeply as leashes are bad because they restrict the choices of dogs.

And that is a cultural fog that I have heard multiple times on the Internet.

I don't know people personally who believe in that, but I do know that it is an opinion that is out there.

And you know what?

Let's.

Yeah, yeah.

Leashes do restrict the choices that our dogs can make.

And it's a fact of life that we have to live with, at least in North America.

And to talk about that, like I want my dog to be super comfortable in his own skin and happy enough to be around me.

The fact that he is on a leash is of no consequence.

I do not want that leash to be the tool that keeps my dog with me.

That tool of control over my dog.

I just want it to be on my dog because the law tells me I have to.

And I think that is where artistry comes into it.

If we are stuck with leashes and they are just a fact of life, then what do we do with them?

Do we use them to yank and crank our dogs around?

Or can we just teach our dogs that being around us is enjoyable and give them skills that they need in order to just manage themselves on those on on those leashes that are restricting their choices and their ability to move their bodies freely?

And so that's kind of an example of where we're sorry.

That's one of the examples where we can go from the idea is a cultural norm, an idea that people have and how it can affect your mechanics and your skills and your ability to be an effective, positive reinforcement trainer.

Yeah, this is something that I've been thinking about a lot recently and haven't really contemplated too much.

I think both one in my own life, 41 years of it and in this podcast.

And that is to do that effectively.

I think to be able to navigate cultural fog takes a level of understanding about reasoning.

Your leashes, what was it?

Leashes are bad.

So say that again.

Oh, sorry.

The example that I had used are leashes are bad because they restrict the choices a dog can make or the freedom of movement.

Right.

And so like this, I think as you were talking, forgive me for multitasking, but I was asking my mate Chazza, Chaz GPT like what kind of reasoning this is like leashes are bad because and it came out something called denatalogical rational, which is like ethics based reasoning.

Right.

Like it's I have values and ethics.

And so that I create reasoning based on that.

And then I put that out into the world.

And as the receiver of this information, it can be really hard to.

It's quite, I think, disorientating because like these truths people present truth.

So another one that I was just just contemplating recently is the argument that, oh, punishment and the aversives modifying behavior is just a natural part of what occurs on this planet.

And that being used as a logic to say, therefore, like we should use it, we should have them in our tool belt.

And like like like if you haven't thought about that before or aren't familiar with different types of reasoning, I think that can really disorientate you because you can't you can't really argue with the fact that that that like makes sense.

But then there's another like maybe denatalogical rationale, which we just talked about, or ethics based, where you're like, just because it exists doesn't mean that it's right.

So like it's interesting what you're bringing up.

And I haven't really thought about it before.

So these are all new thoughts to me.

They're not well thought out.

But kind of what is what what I'm thinking that follows from what you're saying is that there's the mechanical side of the art of training.

But then one thing that we need to maybe build skill about is understanding how reasoning works.

Because a lot of what we confront or even does not confront, maybe that's too of a powerful word when we reflect on our work of clients.

Like a lot of it is people logically explaining their own behavior in a way that disorientates us.

Does that make sense?

It makes a little bit of sense.

Yeah.

I think I see where you're going with this.

Let me see if I've got this.

So it almost sounds like you're saying that people would be projecting their own thoughts and belief systems onto almost their their training.

Is that what I'm picking up?

Yes.

And the leashes are bad because they limit control or whatever that was.

The leashes are bad because they restrict the movement of dogs.

Like that's like someone's maybe ethics and values put into logic that in certain contexts is logical and rational.

But it says because it's logical and rational, therefore we shouldn't use leashes.

And then there's like a this equals this statement because of this equals this.

That is, I think, for the user of those types of rationales, something that firstly, one, they probably don't intentionally aim to manipulate others with.

But secondly, it's a reinforcing method of communicating values and ideas.

But it's quite disorienting.

It can be really disorientating, especially if done well to the to the end user.

It absolutely can be.

And I can I can also see this going further into the argument and going, well, if leashes aren't all bad and we have to use them because they're a fact of life, then isn't that the same thing about an e-caller?

Can't we say the same thing about an e-caller?

So like I can see how if we don't, if we are incapable of because this is a learned skill, if we are incapable of holding two seemingly opposing truths in our mind at the same time, then, yeah, that's where this logical statement will take you.

And I think it is true for me to be able to say leashes are just a fact of life and I can work around them.

And also, I don't use e-callers in my training because I believe a certain set of moral and ethical things that lead me to not want to use them.

So I think we can do that.

Yeah, and I think some of you said they really caught my attention.

And that is our ability to hold two truths simultaneously.

So that's a disorientating part, I think, for a lot of people.

It really is.

Like I can respect your experience.

I can respect your perception.

I can expect how you're what you're feeling and your emotional experience around this topic.

And I can also respect it and appreciate my own.

And to have those two things happen simultaneously for me anyway, like I find that hard.

Like and I'm learning to do that better.

I mean, I'm just even learning that it exists, I think.

But I think how that circles back into this conversation is that and tell me if I'm wrong, but that makes me more artful in our industry as an operator.

It sure does, in my opinion.

It sure does.

It's because you, in my opinion, and tell me if this is holding true for you.

But you are a person because of this skill that you are now honing.

You are able to take in someone else's perspective who you're having a conversation with, maybe someone who you don't necessarily 100 percent agree with.

And you are able to truly mull over what they are saying objectively and then find an in to interject your own thoughts and your own opinions, which might not align in a way that can also be received.

Yeah.

And that last part, in a way that can also be received is important.

So I think there's firstly just being able to tease apart the separate components, tease apart.

Like if someone's offering you a type of reasoning that defends is not the right word, that makes their own behavior reasonable and rational.

Man, this is muddy, so bear with me and feed back to me what I'm saying.

It doesn't mean that them offering rationale or communication styles around that matches the motivation for them using those those communication styles like, you know, it does because, you know, because they're a person who doesn't do silly things.

So if they're doing silly things, then they rationale their silly things.

Yeah.

And I see that a lot.

And so then back to what you just said is that that's OK.

But this is your real experience right now.

I want to share that.

I'm not trying to take away from that.

I'm not trying to diminish that in any way.

And I'm hearing it.

And at the same time, here's my perspective.

And to deliver that is skillfully is artful, I would say.

Yeah, I would.

I would agree.

And I would say two main things taught me this, this, this skill, this.

I'm only just starting to put language around it as well.

But it's a skill I've been developing for a number of years.

And the two things that I attribute the skill building to are, number one, like we discussed last week, therapy.

Therapy was very big for me to learn how to discern, hold multiple perspectives in my mind, parse through them, pick them apart a little bit, really helpful there.

And then also Flash.

Flash Gordon taught me a lot about conversing with a being who doesn't speak my language.

And I speak multiple languages fluently.

So I, I and I am really good at picking apart what other people are trying to say, even if we can't speak like I language.

Barriers aren't a barrier for me as much as they could be.

Let's put it that way.

And that is because of my polyglot skills and also because of my skills of learning how to talk to Flash.

I needed him to listen to me and to do the things I needed him to do.

I needed this.

And he needed something from me and he needed this.

And so in order for us to give each other what we needed, we had to learn how to talk to each other.

And we did not have common language.

So I had to learn.

I had to learn how to talk to him.

I had to learn how to say, yes, I understand that you are scared.

And also, I still need you to behave a certain way.

I will.

I had to find a way to tell him, I will still keep you safe, even if you do this thing.

And he struggled with that.

So did I.

So could we refrain?

I mean, based on just where the conversation has gone.

Hmm.

That this is this the science and art of being a professional trainer as opposed to being a trainer, could we, is the question.

And how they fought and safety is such a key reinforcer.

And when if you the listener have read the book, Crucial Conversations, have you read that, Adam?

I've I've read it.

But that's what that whole book is about.

Like safety, like creating safety in conversation so that people can add to the pool of meaning and can contribute from from a space of safety, which is what you talked about with Flash Gordon then.

But then transferring those skills onto human learners when you've thrown the complexity of language and what that provides for us that it doesn't provide for dogs or other species like sarcasm is is one that comes to mind.

Like, you know, like we're not as far as I know, and I could be wrong, getting sarcasm from our non-human learners.

Right.

And language like muddies it so much with the nuances that can it can give humans when they're conversing with each other.

I also have to build on that point.

That's a very excellent point about sarcasm to build on it.

We don't even do sarcasm right as a species, as as people.

Nobody like if we did sarcasm, right, everybody would understand it every single time without without an issue.

But we have so many different neurotypes and we have so many different cultural ideas of what sarcasm looks like.

It looks different for me when I was living in Saudi Arabia than what it looks like now living in the United States.

Sarcasm is a very different thing.

Culturally, so like we can't even do calls like sarcasm.

Right.

And quote unquote.

So if we can't do that, right, how are we going to do these deep, meaningful, understanding, insightful conversations?

Right.

Right.

So then if we if we take it back to the art and science of training, then I don't know the answer to your question.

But what it makes me think about is that what you learn from Flash Gordon or what we learn from any non-human learner.

And then and then we've got the mechanical part of the art of training.

And we haven't really even talked about the science of training, but we've got the observation skills, the delivery, the reinforcement systems, control, motivation, relationships, all of that stuff, which as we develop through experience, our skill and are able to apply those things well and in real time, kind of become or help us become artistic in my personal opinion.

But then another part of this, I think, and it ties it back to what we're talking about now, is that artistry as well.

And then and this is all just atomisms and Ryanisms every one rather than pretty much what we're pulling from the literature, is that cross-species application of the science.

So being a dog trainer and then coming and working with birds or reptiles or something, there's there's there's some artistry in that aspect.

But then the biggest potentially for a lot of people, we're all individuals.

Artistry comes in taking that science and applying it to others, throwing in the murkiness of conversation, language, culture, and also applying it to yourself.

There's a different level of artistry in there.

What are your thoughts?

Absolutely.

I agree.

And I would think that the first level of artistry comes in with understanding the science.

If you understand it really, really, really well.

And if you understand that the science is meant to be descriptive and not prescriptive, especially that I think that is a huge important thing.

So like one of the things like let's go back to to the leash example.

One of the things that I that have helped me teach successfully teach three of my own personal dogs.

I've only had four for for the reference.

So three out of four.

Not bad.

The fourth one is an 11 month old.

I'll take it anyway.

Is my understanding of how the basics of like the basics of how consequences can affect behavior.

So like the quadrants, basically how to lean in on the concepts of reinforcement, how when when you add or take away something that can have an effect on the frequency of a behavior, of making it happen more often.

And if we find the things that of what to add or in some cases what to take away to make a behavior happen more often, then we can start to influence behavior kindly and effectively.

And so we have taken that a lot to mean we add food to make behavior happen.

And then we systematically build up the distractions.

But the problems that we tend to face with our clients, with our own dogs, if we're not careful, is a splitting problem.

And I think the art of the training comes in how we split.

So if we're going to get into the mechanics of it, the first level of artistry, understanding, really, really, really understanding the nitty gritty of it.

Might I plug LLA Learning and Living with Animals, Susan Friedman's course, Dr.

Susan Friedman's course for that.

That'll be a really good resource for a lot of people.

And then the the next level above that is really getting good at splitting behavior.

If you can find a split like Hannah Branigan can find a split, then you're golden.

No one can find a split like Hannah Branigan can find a split.

And I think that right there is where we have to start our artistry journey is first we need to learn.

So like with with what graphic design, it's color theory.

Let's bring in a theory of splitting and science there.

Yeah, lots of examples are coming to mind as you're saying that.

So let's talk about these and see how they fit in.

One's just left my brain, but it'll come back to me.

This one was like, OK, at a wildlife park a few weeks ago and working with their koala team.

And they were doing a specific, they're providing specific antecedents and consequences.

And we had a discussion about how what was being learned and what can be changed.

And I realized just how hard what I was asking of these people was.

Right.

It's like I'm saying to you that you've been doing this certain behavior in this certain context for so long.

The only reason you do that behavior is because there's reinforcement there for you, otherwise you wouldn't do it.

And I'm asking you now to ignore your reinforcement history and what works for you in this context, apart from this conversation, influencing that, doing a whole new behavior in this context.

And that has no reinforcement history and do that.

And I kind of feel like I don't know the best way to describe this, but like your biology is physically going to be fighting you to do that.

And the other one is like, yes, I stole this joke off Susan, and I say it quite a lot.

It's like she's like, I wish like presenter Susan, I wish presenter Ryan, when I'm presenting on Crucial Conversations, could talk to husband Ryan and like apply those skills, like taking those skills that Crucial Conversations teaches us or how to create safety for others in conversations and that I can apply successfully in a work context but applying them in real time in the flux and dynamicness of our house with animals and kids and the chaos.

You know, I suck at generalizing my own behavior, so it just doesn't generalize into that space.

But I like I can see clearly how like shape splitting would would fall into those categories.

But I'd love to hear your perspective.

Absolutely.

That example you gave of you going in and asking these keepers to just ignore everything they've ever done and do something different for zero reinforcement history.

Isn't that kind of what we're asking our dogs to do when we start them on a behavior modification journey?

Isn't that kind of what we're doing?

And so I think it's a very important piece, a split, if you will, that we forget to do often when when training anyone, when working with anyone, but especially with our dogs.

Is this split of first?

Can you do this behavior without any distractions around?

That is that is truly the first split.

And that and a lot of people think or the way they behave tells me that they think that generalizing their behavior in five different locations.

OK, so we did it at home.

We did it at the training center.

We did at the park.

We always go to.

We went to the mall parking lot and we went to insert other location here.

What about when we walk down the street and turn left at the at the corner intersection?

Did you did you practice it there without a dog?

Because that's where the dogs show up that the problems take place.

That doesn't really happen at the mall parking lot.

It doesn't.

So we forget the split between.

OK, now can you do it in context, but without the trigger?

And now can you do it in context, but with a harder, with not a harder, with an easier trigger?

So, for example, can you sit and eat a scatter or lie down and eat a scatter or watch me or do whatever it is that you want your dog to do instead of bark and lunge?

While there is maybe your brother who lives in the same house as you, who you do not have aggression issues with, is walking down the street with another handler.

Can you do that?

That is a split that we don't often think about.

Can you do it with a stuffed dog kind of staring at you from further down the street?

Because those stuffed dogs can look pretty wonky at you and give the hairy eyeball.

Can you do it if you're if you have a toy driven dog?

I have a toy driven dog right now.

My my 11 month old boxer, he's very toy driven.

I am currently teaching him how to stay on a station using a toy.

Like, can you do this while I'm swinging your beloved tuggy around?

No, then there's no way I can ask you to do this with another dog working.

Those are the splits I want to start thinking about outside the box splits of what can you do it around?

What have I tested you doing it around before asking you to do it around your hardest triggers?

I was watching Free Willy last night with my wife, really wanted my daughter to watch it.

And I do what every animal trainer does around, like judging the training as it's happening in the movie.

And to me, my wife's like, you're judging it, aren't you?

I'm like, no, and Free Willy wouldn't perform for the little child, wouldn't do the cute behaviours.

Don't like that word perform, but wouldn't didn't want to offer the cute behaviours in the presence of all of the kids tapping on the the glass.

And Ryan's brain's going, you haven't taught this destruction yet.

OK, back to the keepers.

By the way, like just take this opportunity to share this really cool thing that you can do.

I've been doing recently on these consoles is using your phone to record the whole conversation, taking that transcript, putting it in Chazza, aka ChagPT, coming up with a really detailed transcript of everything you covered.

So we did this.

And I'm glad to say in that we did.

We did say you need to practice this without your koala first.

And with the a peer, a colleague pretending to be a koala or whatever, you need to set that up successfully.

And we teach these guys to teach and they got ways of teaching each other new skills and then all of the stuff to break down as much as we can.

But I'm also aware as part of my art, artistry, my developing artistry that, you know, in 10 years from now, I'm hoping I listen back to me saying that and slap my forehead into my palm and be like, you didn't know what you were talking about back then.

That's that's a sign of growth for me.

But is that I'm aware of my reinforcers.

OK, cool.

I'm going to teach these koala keepers to do this, these things.

And I need management to look at what we're achieving here and thinking that their return on investment for bringing me into the space is going to be something that reinforces that behavior, you know, and and there's all of these.

So as an operator, I've got my own reinforcers in that context and trying to bypass the process that I know we need to take.

Right.

Because there's other reinforcers at play.

But yeah, I think I think you're right.

Hopefully we'll do that.

Time will tell.

We'll talk about it in a future episode.

So let's start, let's stay on this track.

That is the art and science of training and the art and science of being a practitioner.

What is what is this like?

And if I've gone too far off field, tell me.

But what is what is the science part of this thing?

Like, how do we how do we scientifically be a practitioner?

Thoughts are coming to me as I ask that question.

But I want to hear your thoughts by educating ourselves as much as we can, by educating ourselves, being open to that education, being receiving to that education and learning from those who are true artists in our fields, from learning from people who are true scientists in our field.

And I think our bestie, Dr.

Susan Friedman, is both.

I think she embodies what it is to be an artist of a dog trainer, an artist of a practitioner.

And I think starting with a course like Living and Learning with Animals, I think learning what you want to do with certifying through Control Unleashed.

I think certifying with competent bodies that that teach skill, that look at your skill, that's Control Unleashed does that.

KPA, CTP does that.

LLA tests your knowledge, getting your certifications through different things.

Those ways will test your knowledge of the science more than I can.

Things those are the things that I would like people to do to in order to make sure that they have the science down really, really hard.

I am one of those people who I'm really, really good at understanding it.

I'm not very good at regurgitating it.

So that's why I had to learn to become an artist is because all I did was regurgitate facts for a long time and nobody understood anything.

It went over people's heads or I said it wrong or this or that.

And so once I started, things are just falling on me, I guess.

Once I just once I started caring less about making sure I got the words right and caring more that I made sure I got the concept across right.

That's when we started seeing success in both my professional career and also as in my chops as a trainer, as like just a trainer.

So do I really need to know that I am going on a differential reinforcement of other of alternative behaviors journey?

Do I really need to know that?

Yes, yes, I do.

I need to know that.

But does your client need to know that?

Not really.

Things like that.

So you need to know in order to be an artist, you need to know the medium with which you are using and the medium of which you are using is applied behavioral analysis, right?

And then what your what your client needs to know and using applied behavior analysis for me, how this is is making sense is all of this messiness I have around these thoughts.

Some of them that we've shared today in this podcast episode are relatively new to me.

I like meeting and turning into this.

You know, you know, when you get played over different colors and you're like, that's what's happening in my mind right now.

It's like you need you need applied behavior analysis to apply to your non-human learners, to apply to your clients, to apply to yourself.

That's a really exciting journey, I think.

And then another Susanism, and then I'll throw this at you because I want to hear your thoughts on it, that I say, I say a lot.

And I think it's so relevant for what you've said there is learn all of this stuff, learn about what differential reinforcement of different kinds of differential reinforcement means and all of the jargon science, what we can take from the literature, whether you're reading literature or reading textbooks or whatever your sources, living and learning of animals, control, unleashed certification, whatever it is.

I think this skill and I still feel like I'm grasping this and grasping how to best help others take away what I struggle to put into words is taking all of that information, leaving it at the door and then stepping in front of your individual learner to see what they're telling you now.

I can hear my inner Susan coming out when I say that that is that is for me where this ball of playdough in my mind is is landing me towards the end of this conversation.

When I say that to you, what does it make you think?

I think that is a perfect explanation.

I think that is exactly it.

I think in order to become a true artist, you have to practice.

You just have to do it.

You have to leave every preconceived notion when you are practicing, when you are applying your knowledge, when you are honing your skills, take every preconceived notion, leave it at the door and just see what the animal in front of you is telling you.

So you may think you are applying a positive reinforcement strategy for one of your dogs to teach a specific skill, for example.

But then looking back at the video, because we always record everything we do, don't we?

So we can review it all.

So when reviewing that video, you might find that what was happening wasn't, in fact, a positive reinforcement contingency, but rather a negative reinforcement contingency.

I've had that happen recently in a training session with my 11 month old who I was teaching him a kickback stand from a sit.

And he gave me the most perfect offer to kickback stand.

And in the moment, I thought it was the coolest thing in the world until I reviewed the video and I realized I had leaned into him.

And that is when he kickback stand stood.

And I leaned back in order to click and reinforce him and did not realize in that moment what I had done.

And so in that moment, could he have learned?

Yes, obviously he did.

He learned that that was a behavior I was searching for from him.

But in that particular moment, what was the contingency at play?

It was not positive reinforcement, even though I positively reinforced my dog for doing the thing.

It was actually a negative reinforcement contingency.

And so we have to be aware of these things.

Where are we looking?

What are we doing?

What are we accidentally doing?

We have to practice, like you said, without your animals first.

How are you going to practice?

How are you going to get it right with the koalas if you don't practice without the koalas first?

You have to know exactly what you want to do in every moment of every contingency that comes up.

And you can't do that if you haven't first practiced by yourself.

That is a split that most people don't think of.

Yeah, it makes me think about you to know exactly what to do and the situation.

And that's what we we teach with those koala keepers as well via a specific tool that Emily Johnson and Ava Bertelsen taught me called flowcharting.

And I just imagine Ava and Emily's mind has been these flowcharts just happening organically in their mind.

Let's wrap up this conversation.

And if you will, I'll wrap it up with a quote.

And this is from the end of the article, The Art of Training by Steve Martin.

It says the most artistic animal trainers understand their opportunity and obligation to provide the best care and management for the animals in their charge, as well as the opportunities to influence, inspire and empower others.

In this relatively young and limited field, this was 2006, everyone of animal training, we are all artists in our own right.

Our passions, our skills, our knowledge of training and of our animals are gifts that we can share with others.

When we pass them on to other trainers, we can improve their performance and ultimately the lives of the animals in their care.

And for me, that's what it's all about.

What about you, Adam?

I agree.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I could sing that quote from the rooftops.

It's beautiful, isn't it?

I like it.

I read that.

I was like, oh, yeah, let's see if there's an opportunity to include that in the end.

Sadly, though, that does bring us to the end.

I do have one more question for you.

I don't know if I share this with you in advance.

I'm getting bad at remembering to do that.

But that is I just want to hear people's visions for the future.

And we've been asking this now for four, nine years, nine, ten years.

I lose track of how long we've been doing this podcast.

But that question is, what do you want to see happen over the next five, ten years in the animal training world?

And that's why it's cool that we've been asking it for that long now, because what we've found is that no matter where you are in the world, no matter what species you're working with, no matter what industries you're in, we're often always singing the same song.

And in your words, I would like to hear what you would like to see happen over the next five, ten years, Adam.

I would like to see more curiosity take place.

I would like to see more people asking why.

How?

What?

And I really would love to see a shift towards understanding.

The captive animals in our care, and I think that shift has already begun.

We are seeing welfare as this big, important first piece, and I would like to see it continue going in that direction.

I don't want it to be a wave that ebbs out and flows back into the ocean just when it's hitting critical mass.

I want it to keep going.

Ellie Bender and Emily Strong did a podcast episode on curiosity recently.

And when I asked Susan a couple of years ago to do something with us and say, what would you most like to do with our membership?

She said she wanted to do a webinar on critical thinking.

Yes, I love that vision, love curiosity, let's get more curious.

Thanks for sharing everything today with us, Adam.

Could you just remind everyone listening before we wrap up where they can go to find out more about you, what you do and get in touch?

Absolutely.

You can find me on my website, flashofbrilliantstogs .com or you can find me through Facebook.

My name is as it's spelled.

You can find me easily, unfortunately.

And on Instagram at flashofbrilliantstogs.

That's the handle there.

Fantastic.

And we will, of course, link to all of us in the show notes as well.

Adam, this has been so much fun for myself.

And on behalf of everyone listening, we really appreciate you taking the time to come and hang out with us on the show today.

Thank you so much.

It has been my pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

And thank you so much for listening as well.

This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off from this episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast show.

We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.

Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.

Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and keep improving.

And don't forget the path to growing your skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this episode.

Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive membership, where you will find a community of trainers just like you.

Together, we're making a huge positive difference in the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.

Until next time, keep honing your skills.

Stay awesome.

And remember, every interaction with an animal or human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.

We're here cheering you on every step of the way.

See you at the next episode.