She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood.

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It's the lad Jamie Steadman stetto do.

I call you stetto please do, Tiff, please jetdo.

Welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me back.

If the last time was a wild ride in all the ways, right topics and difficulties with the technology, it was.

I was just telling you that I started, but I didn't get through much of it, but started listening to the last conversation, so I wanted to refresh on what we spoke about and it was good.

It was a range of range of stuff you growing up in a pretty shitty environment with a pretty shitty step father.

And there was one point where you actually made me tear up.

Like listening back to it, I was like, Oh, you got really emotional talking about I mean, you nearly died and you were talking about you couldn't come to terms with Steve Irwin passing away and you not passing away when you got ill, and you got really choked up, and it was so visceral.

I was like, Oh, that's right, Jamie's amazing.

Thanks you you got me.

You've kicked me in the nuts to begin with, so you're welcome.

Thank you.

It.

Look, that is something that is still weirdly prevalent in my head, like how what I keep me around?

When you had this dude who was doing such amazing things?

And I hope that the space I'm in now in men's behavior change is part of that solution or that that answer to that question, I hope.

Do you think about like the legacy we leave?

I think about, you know, like even the short time he was here in the grand scheme of life, a short time, but the legacy he left and the people that he's impacted in ways like you like his existence has had such an impact on you that maybe you go out and have more of an impact because of that.

That drives you.

God, I hope So tif I legacy is not something I aim to leave behind.

But if you're gonna suffer through, and that's a bit broad, but if you're going to suffer through the shitty shitty experiences, surely we should be able to use it for good, right, Yeah, hopefully just to pass on if nothing else, the ability to get through.

I've been I've been really working on that get through rather than get over when it comes to the way we speak about ourselves.

Once I get over this, I'll be okay.

It's like, you know what, Fuck, that's a hard thing to ask of yourself.

How about you just get through it?

Because do we ever get over stuff?

It's a really good point.

Yeah, but we put that pressure on ourselves.

So I've been I don't know why that's been.

I've got to tell you, I've got to feel them.

One of your podcast kicked off that line of thinking a couple of weeks ago, and by the time I'd played with the line of thinking, I had not heard a word of podcasts.

So that's so I'll have to go back.

But that's what podcast was that.

I think it was the one with is it doctor Bruce?

Oh yeah, it's just.

Something he said, and then my brain goes and here we are.

So I just yeah, I've been really trying to work on that, both in the group with the men and people I talk to.

It's like, Hey, the obligation for you to get over something as internal, not external, So what about shifting it from an internal perspective?

If you knew that you had the ability and we all do to get through a hard thing, and perhaps that's all you have to do is get through it.

It's really it's actually really powerful when you start to observe.

Even just this conversation right now is making me observe how we speak of what we're going through or what we're thinking, what we're processing, then how we speak of it in the language that we use in beds.

Are really can in bed a really different story and process.

Like I was just thinking, the idea of getting over something or almost in the back of my mind makes me feel like there's this sense of I've got a rush, push it away, push it down, ignore it.

I mean, I spent thirty years trying to ignore the shit that happened to me.

And it's like, you can't do that.

But we a story unfolds because of these short little terms that we.

Use, and we want the story to have this tidy little ending where it says the end, and that's just not, you know, sensible.

It's like, hang on this, this thing that happened is going to affect every page.

Now, whether I allow it to, I can live because of it or in spite of it.

I still get to choose.

But how about I just remember that I can carry it softly.

I don't have to give it so much pressure, so much bullshit, so much weight.

Just allow it to have heavy days and to know that tomorrow might be a bit lighter.

Yeah, this got dark really quick.

Tif Oh, I'd like to say this got deep really quick.

Okay, deep deep.

Did you feel like when you grow up and you see violence and you see bad stuff and you're at the hands of bad stuff, did you feel like you had to make a choice to not become that Did you feel frightened that you might?

I never felt frightened that I would because from and we talked about it in the last podcast From Such a Long, Such a young age, I knew intrinsically that what was happening was wrong, was not how I understood love to be.

We grow up with We're given Jesus, We're given permission far too much to go.

Oh will tell you knew bullshit right?

I know that if I keep eating pies, mass is going to grow.

Also know the bananas are a better option.

I just decided to choose.

It is not easy, but it is that temple.

And I honestly feel that if you get someone to help you talk to and through your heart rather than the filter of life.

Your heart knows the Guru speaks to you, it will never let you down.

And if I was to look back at a young age and remember some of those things, I remember thinking to myself, I don't know if that's the right way to do.

This didn't mean that I knew what the right way was.

I just think that I had a weird ability as an individual to understand there's a different way, and that I would seek that out and fucked if not perfect, struggling day to day to be a good dad, to be a better partner, to be a good friend and a good work colleague.

But the journey continues, right.

Feel free and not to answer any question to ask, by the way, but what does struggling in those things look and feel like for you?

Well, I've never done it before, So every day is a new day.

So just get the manual out, Just get the manual that it comes with.

I've never been a dad before, I've never been a husband before.

I've never been a fifty three year old man in this current environment before, with new technology and all this other stuff that the kids in our lives have to deal with.

I've never had to talk to my daughter previously about the struggles of been a girl at her age, at six nine years of age, and this pressure that other girls put on them, this bullshit.

Have burned their best mate one week and hate each other the next week, and it's insanity.

It's absolute insanity, and you know the frustration.

But that's never helped anything, believe it or not.

So it's just trying to get down in the mud with her and learn what it is she's dealing with, what she's feeling.

And I fuck it up on a daily basis, I really do, and I try not to the next day, and I try and get her involved in our discussions and how she wants it to look to feel and the structure, and some days she says, I don't want to do this today, and I'm like, I just got to let her sort this out.

And then as a dad and in this DV space, you've got to catch it.

She said a really powerful thing to me the other day that triggered a whole other thought process around instant relationships and where this allowance in particular for the females in our lives to accept breadcrumbs from the men in their lives.

And she said to me with her friend group that she constantly and I believe that a lot of young women anybody might resonate with this, that she felt like she always was tightroping, that one slip meant should be out of the friend group.

And this is a sixteen year old kid articulating this difficulty of life.

And I just said, that doesn't sound like love to me.

It doesn't sound like friendship.

And then I thought to myself, where does that lead a young girl when the boys start snifing around and this tightroping has been accepted just to be a friend with someone, and then this dude comes along and he gives you these fucking andred tape, bullshit, breadcrumbs and you accept that as laugh and where does it lead you?

And it's not your fault, it's not, but the lack of education around what control and course control is and then all of this stuff.

I just blew my mind like that one sentence and I thought, fuck me, the weight of that moving forward into who she accepts and what she accepts in her life.

This is a crucial, crucial moment.

That's massive, you know, you think about it's such a massive issue that and obviously a national conversation, global conversation, but definitely in our country.

And you just mentioned before that's the sixteen days of activism, correct.

Yeah, that's right.

But and like with all big things, my mind always goes far beyond, you know, the initial conversation, so understanding where to start and what shapes it and how do we tackle this?

And you know, you're in it, You're in the space, you're doing the work literally on the ground with the men.

And then you have a conversation with a young girl that a female friendship group and you go, oh, yeah, this is the primer for that.

Here it is right here in front of me.

Yeah, and I'm again I am not saying they're responsible for this, but if you have to tightrope and people can't see me, but I just quote it.

If you have to tightrope, then you're fucking doing it wrong.

Right.

They're not your people.

And I hope, I hope with all hope that those kids find someone in their life that they can trust to point that out to them, that they can just reflect on it and go, shit, this isn't appropriate, this isn't right.

What can I do about that?

I can just stop accepting the less all right.

I don't know what more looks like, but I can certainly stop accepting the fucking very baseline bullshit.

Look, high school's tough kids just want to be recognized and heard.

But what do you have to give up for that to happen?

Big pieces of yourself?

No good?

How did you navigate that conversation?

Haven't yet?

It's a mate and so for her to have that insight and that like it when she said it, she just said it was such a defeatist thing, you know, And I'm like, fuck, how do I how does the big protective dad do that thing?

Protect her and help open her eyes up to You're you're accepting less of you than you would have others.

And that's no good, does she.

You know, our kids just want to be recognized as equals and she's no different.

And my worry or my concern is what are they saying, suggesting doing becoming to be accepted as equal?

Yeah, and that's bloody tough.

And of course now and again I just pointed to the group room because of that work.

Sorry, boss, we with Then this problem exists where these blokes have got my burnfuckwits to be perfectly honest if and I don't not casting as persions, it's not a judgment call, it just is.

There are better choices you can make.

Become aware of what they look like, and go do them, you know, stop pretending, Oh I didn't know any better, bullshit.

You just chose to accept less as enough we talk about these.

There's a really powerful, powerful video I would urge everyone.

It's a British thing hashtag Dear Daddy.

I put it up on my socials the other week.

It's ridiculous and I wish it's shown.

Government would pick it up and run with it.

It just speaks of the misogyny, the acceptance of misogynists and sexist jokes when men bond over the other ring of women, and then the knock on effect that that has.

Right, So there are grown ups who can have those conversations and understand they're just jokes, they're not me equoting again, But there's always someone in that circle who goes that.

They believe that that's validation of conformation that women are less and so that the triggers a series of events, issues, concerns, murders in that all because you thought it was fucking hilarious to speak ill of women when they're not around.

What are we doing right?

And if girls are accepting that as bread crumbing?

And I again I am there's no blame being laid here.

It's just this is new to me and you've got a tight rope around any other human that's not your human.

Makes me.

One of the biggest things I talk about, and I talked about it a lot last week in queens last month in Queensland.

Is like the masks we wear, and I think about it a lot because I think about how long I I don't know how long I lived under the impression of the person I thought I was once putting on a mask and a facade to protect myself.

And you know, it took getting into the boxing ring at thirty to realize, Shit, I am not the way I think I am like I am.

This is a bit of bullshit, Like all of this, all of the perceptions I've made of myself and why I do what I do in the show I put on like that's actually not at all who I am.

I don't even know who I am anymore.

I'm just I'm actually running away.

I'm not tough and independent.

I'm running away.

I'm scared of things, and I'm pretending I'm tough and courageous by doing stupid shit like getting punch in the face, because everyone else is scared of that.

So it makes me feel like I'm not scared, Like I'm thirty years older.

I'm learning that.

And then I think of these young girls and they're they're shaping themselves and putting on masks to fit these This create tiar and or for.

The word of or for the word acceptance.

Yeah, and if how many, how genuinely how many friends of you still got from high school?

Just a very small handful.

And if I asked that question to everyone, they'd probably say more or less the same thing.

Right a few.

It's such a bullshit moment in life that absolutely means less.

If you're a kid listening to this and you're going through your hsc just get through it, because it fucking means nothing.

In the greatest scope of things.

You are not yet who you wish to become.

That journey hasn't even started.

So I thought it was interesting that you said who I was as opposed to who I thought I had to be, because I wonder, at what stage do we do that?

Do we gave?

This is who my circle needs me to be.

This is who I have to be to accepted by those people.

This mask, this is what it looks like.

And I had to do that.

As a prison officer, I thought I had to be big and tough and hard, which would be cool if I was any of those things, But I am not.

I am a big softy.

Don't tell anyone.

Oh I know, mate, I already know, and I'm telling everybody, Jamie, big marshmallow man.

And it's a squishy heart.

You know.

I can be very confrontational given the right circumstances, but I like it.

It doesn't make me feel good to stand there and get up somebody or rip in or just be as smart ass because I can, and I can, I just don't want to.

It's not who I am.

Who I am is this It's still an evolving journey.

If I just want to, can I help you do a thing?

Yep?

Fuck that makes me feel awesome?

That's it.

Connect, help, assist or shut the fuck up and listen whatever you need right hard to pay the bills with that, But we're getting there.

How do you how do you develop that?

How do you develop the ability to be soft and to not put walls up?

Given that really turbulent home environment you were in, the walls.

Were up for a really long time.

I had a I've got a bit of a I guess you could call it a superpower where if a wall is pointed out to me and it's something I really want to let go of, it just crashes down like it's not a gradual thing.

I just kick it over.

Do you know it's up?

Or depit to someone?

Have to point it out often.

It has to be pointed out a little bit often.

And I am getting better at recognizing it or reflecting on it and sometimes even taking out go hit, just going you're right.

I can be a fuck with sometimes my politic the I had a conversation with a really close friend and she just simply said, you don't need to have these walls up.

I see through them, and that version of you the world needs it.

And I was like, okay and done and kind of just pretty much let it go.

From that moment forward, I stopped let a prison officer in place, ambos, any emergency service soldiers, et cetera.

I guess we'll say the same thing.

It's hard to not be that thing all the time.

And of course it took me a little while to work out that not everyone likes to be told to get fucked and so I had to find a different way, right.

And the different way is just getting curious and the more every every day I'm alive.

I want to be more curious than I was yesterday.

And I want to be really kind just of being curious at all times, because curiosity creates clarity with everything.

It's okay, tell me about that.

Why do you think that way?

What has helped you become this or pushed you into that?

Like?

Where did you go?

What brought that about?

I don't understand it, but I'm desperate to hear about it.

Yeah, I just think all of those things.

The more curious we can get as a society, the more the more we connect genuinely instead of this.

You're different to me, so that makes you wrong.

What have you learned working within this space that you maybe didn't expect to learn?

Ah?

Probably how horrific it is to be a victim survivor in this space to have to go to the police and tell them that you've been coercively controlled because it gives you an allowance and the police just look at you and no disregard to the police, but they've been given In New South Wales, coersive control law exists, but haven't been told how to police it yet.

All right, so the government acted, but the police are like, whoa, we don't know what to do with this information.

And I sit on con Proventsing Commity here in Orange as a local counselor and you know, the police will tell us all the stats and in there there's nowherefore do in coursive control because in the heads I've got linked to other things.

Now this happened because of that.

I was like, WHOA, there's just standalone stats.

We've got to get better at recognizing it.

And how I guess how mindlessly from tightroping, coercive control kicks in, how soft it begins, and how if we don't start educating both sexes, then you know we're going to be consistently.

I've said before, if I don't want to work in the reactive space, you know we've got to get out in front of this stuff.

We've got to In this particular instance, prevention is better than the killer.

Can't stop the fuckwits from fuckwitting, but we can.

We can absolutely bring some of those outlies back through education, through a lack of acceptance of shit talk, through having businesses set the standards.

So I want to I love the idea of me as the bottom feeder calling out the boss when I hear the boss say a silly thing.

When that truly kicks in and businesses start going on, wellness is bigger than movement, bigger than mental health, It's all encompassing.

How can we then further educate will start would be a really good idea, And don't do it to tick a box.

Do it because the knock on effect of it is massive.

How many of your staff ah living in a DV relationship and not wanting to share it because they don't either don't know that to embarrass, guilt blah blah blah blah blah blah.

And if you're getting out in front and having those hard conversations and making sure that the standard is driven top down not bottom up, but can be reversed.

So, hey, we had a conversation that we weren't going to do these jokes or whatever, and I think you've dipped into that, and I boss just goes, yep, thank you, move on, educate and move on, not call out, not judge, not blow up at just softly, softly, consistently shift our expectations and behaviors.

Where do.

Where does it begin?

And what do we what do we if?

It would be very nuanced for everybody everywhere?

So this is a tough question from that standpoint.

But what do girls?

What do girls need to know or understand?

And what do boys need to know or understand?

And just what point same thing that this behavior is both unacceptable and inappropriate, right, that this behavior is unacceptable and inappropriate, that you don't have to accept, you know, the boss putting his hand in the smaller of your back, and all these other little things that they can just bet, hey, cool you don't need to touch me.

Well, hey, that joke you just told, old mate, I've neither fucking water cooler.

I've kind of found it a bit offensive considering the conversations we've had, and without fear of repercussion.

That's the hardest part, that is the absolute hardest part.

So I had to chat with a bunch of trades the other week and I asked them if any of their apprentices would call out their shit talk, and mast of them said no.

And I said, is it because I can't recognize it?

Or is it because you haven't made them safe enough to do so?

Now I don't know what the answer is, but I bet the traders do.

So.

If we are making our staff humans safe enough and emotionally intelligent enough to call it out and have a curious conversation about it, what a world right?

Put me out of a job, guys, please?

M hm oh sorry, yeah, just where we go, right?

This is where we go?

Yeah, And it's there is no soft in entitive.

It has to be hard conversations.

We have a lot of these relationship based courses that run through high schools and primary schools, but they protect kids from the language they protect kids from the numbers, and I'm sorry, guys, but we're going to stop protecting them from what's actually happening and just start using the big words.

And they're using somewhere we have not heard of yet, So get amongst it.

You know, the word rape, the word murder.

These are genuine things that need to be brought forward.

I love the idea of parents being really curious about what kids are talking about.

So hey, tell us about that conversation you have with that boy.

And when parents make themselves educate themselves on what types of abuse and course of control looks like, they can perhaps just go, oh, hang on, that sounds a bit similar to this thing.

What do you think that can be enough?

Broh?

Yeah.

I my third so I had my now psychologist, formerly just a podcast guest, now psychologist, doctor Bill, and I had him won three times very early days.

The first couple.

The third conversation was titled why don't we call it rape?

And it was a conversation on exactly that, because my discomfort in sessions with him with that term was palpable, and it was a really confronting conversation.

And it leads into why women don't like it's a really murky there's murky waters around what's you know, what behavior is okay and what's not?

And certainly you know still to one of the things I here see worry about is what was she wearing?

You know, and soone and so forth.

It's fucking intate and calling out stop either victim blaming or service blaming, or that service let that person down and that caused that meant that that bloat could then go murder that person.

That dickhead made a fucking shit choice the end, and there is no there is nothing else attached to it other than him, burnapace ship, There is no there is no blaming of anybody other than the choice that that man made.

There is I know, Oh she deserved it, or she had it coming, or she wore the thing, or she was drunk or s I don't give two fucks.

None of that matters, None of it's relevant.

There's only one thing that definitely happened.

He chose the end.

Stop blaming, and the media are definitely getting better.

But let's highlight, let's really highlight some of this stuff.

How long was coursive control at play before violence started?

What we know from some past victims is there was no violence until the murder happened, but the coercive control had been long and painful and difficult, and the sooner we start jumping up and down about it, like I want women to be able to go to the police and say, every time I look in the revisionary is there as opposed to well, he lives in your town, what do you want him to do?

Do you know what I mean?

And again that's an example that I just made up.

It's not.

But this is how hard this is for victim survivors.

When they go to the post and don't get heard, then they're not reporting.

So our stats are alarming.

Imagine how alarming they would be if all were bone reported.

Oh yeah, I had years and years and years ago.

I had an intervention order against a short relationship I had and he breached it straight away.

And he'd breached it formally for another for his former partners who's already had intervention order, had breached that multiple times, breached mine first up and nothing ever happened.

And you know, I've got a friend who reached out and her friends in WA dealing with a bloke in I want to say New South Wales who's still threatening her via texts, and she's gone to the police in Wa and they have said, well, he's over there worried about I'll slapped the fucking point boys.

He's breaking the law.

He's no different to if he drove at one hundred and five kms an hour in one hundred z go book the dicat and if he's been booked often enough, fuck him off to jail for a while.

See if he likes it there.

It's really hard.

Like think about the media.

The media.

Media don't give a shit.

They're a business, so they their job is to write headlines that piss most of us off enough to click a thing, Like they.

Open an argument.

They know they will get more hits by inflammatory shit in their in their clickbaity titles.

Police.

I mean, I just think they're under so much press pressure and they've got jobs to do, and I just can't see how you wouldn't get desensitized and frustrated.

And I mean when I when I was in a courtroom getting that order, sitting there listening to multiple other people before me, I was astounded and I was just like, Wow, what an awful world this is to live in, And having to look at two people coming in both telling wildly different versions of a story.

And you know, and then like we've seen in the recent days, the the police videos coming out with the Hannah Evans case.

What was his name, Hannah Clark, Hannah Clark, thank you, yes, Rowan Rowan Baxter.

That's it.

I saw those videos.

I don't want to say the funk its name.

The issue here is that she wasn't believed, she wasn't heard enough.

The poor police officer who had befriended her was then told to unbefriend her because it could be seen as collusion and all just so much, and yet none of that pressure was put on him none.

So he and then the police go there and turned off the video.

Like those two blogs, whoever they are, just go hand your badger's back, poys, fuck off.

You should not be police officers.

I don't There is no excuse, and we'll probably cop some backlash over this, but the Blue Brotherhood, you still got to stand fone.

When people do the wrong thing the end.

Yeah, and those two blogs did the wrong thing.

You cannot be coaching somebody on how to get around the system if you think that you're doing that there's a fucking question being asked, why do you think this book notes on coaching.

There's been an accusation.

You idiots the end, go do your job and leave and talk shit, do it amongst yourselves.

Well, better still grow up.

Think about if I don't know what happened, I was the same, I was like, well, I like, I can only hope they haven't enough humanity to have to live with what happened now and realize that they are so responsible for that outcome.

Right, So again we have to be careful here because they are not responsible for the choices of rum backstaff.

Yeah, he is responsible for that.

So you go back into bat for our guys.

One funck.

We made a choice the end.

Okay, However, the services that are there to protect us don't always do that.

That should be the thing they think about the march is who will we protecting?

Because your job is your job, good beat or otherwise.

And if you think again, there's been an accusation made.

I want to coach this guy.

I feel empathy for him, or sympathy for him, there's probably time for you to step back a little bit.

Is it heavy for you working in this space?

Not at all?

No, that's not fair.

Yes, I love the work and hate the job because so much of it is chasing my tail from a data and regulation perspective to make sure we get paid to do it again and again and again, and that means that I can't do the job as thoroughly as I would like.

The current research suggests that people need two hundred plus hours of behavior change stuff for it to kick in, and I get them for forty So not early enough.

Right.

The big the big drama is too when men or anybody really starts to feel supported, then you just cut them off.

Okay, sorry, we're done, and I don't.

We don't have a process for further through care, and I want that.

I would you know, if they let me, I'll start a business and do that.

And we should back.

We should be checking in and giving them men an option.

Hey, i've slipped and I need I need a research suite.

Let's talk about that.

So I guess you were seeing enough positive shift though to feel light about what you're seeing.

And in the middle of all the time, I just think being in the middle of that and seeing the dart like I don't want to have conversations about it, and I see things online and I'm like, if that was my if that was my forty hours a week, I feel like I'd get so angry and I'd feel so defeated.

There are times stiff, no two ways about it, But I hear enough moments of change that I'm driven to keep seeking more.

Yeah, and it happens in such small little spaces, you know, where you just in the room.

You start hearing the men challenge each other.

It's like, Hey, I don't have to do any work.

How good is they're doing it?

That's what we want?

Is curious?

Oh, I want to push back there.

What do you mean by that?

I'm like, yes, this is what we want to talk about.

This is what we've got to do.

They can see it eternally so easily, but when you're in the middle of it, you can't see it right.

There's nothing reflecting, So that can be difficult.

But the more we teach, the more we educate people to pick up on those external things, well hopefully they can call it out in themselves and their mates and god knows who else.

You know, I've got guys in the room variously who are coaching or whatever in different spaces.

So if I'm helping them be better.

I imagine the effect that's having on the greater community.

That's my big hope, that's the big one.

So yeah, we're just I don't know what happens when they leave.

And that's why the process we have is so thorough.

So the victim survivor gets support and often will say that's not what I'm saying, and so we Okay, let's go back in and try and challenge change shift.

Get curious about why you're saying X, but she's not saying it.

To stop telling me your shit, start living it.

What creates a tipping point for them?

What they're turning point?

What do they need to have?

I mean, self awareness isn't easy, especially when you're talking about things like this, where you've got to take extreme ownership about your beliefs and your attitudes and the way that you move through the world.

So many different things if so so nuance so so difficult to even articulate.

Well, there are court mandates.

There are also corrective services mandates, so corrections will talk to the lot of community.

Corrections talk to them.

Says right, Well, part of our process is you go do this, but they can't order them to complete it.

They can only order them to engage.

A magistrate can order a completion.

But we if they're not ready, they're not ready.

So is that girlfriends?

There are a lot of women currently suggesting to their guys, I'm not happy about this.

You need to do some work and this is what it looks like, and the men, to their credit, go, okay.

Lots of blokes self refer, but when we dig in a bit that's normally your self refer.

Yeah, such and such said I needed to okay, So here you are.

Can you be open enough to learn?

That's the big one.

Yeah, it's kind of astounding, though, isn't it to think if they've got to be in that situation in a relationship and have the threat of it being taken from them before they will change the way they are treating another human being that they supposedly love.

Yeah.

Love is a weird thing, right, and do you My big question to the men always is can you love that person so deeply, so well, so completely that she feels safe enough to leave?

Because that's a lot of freedom that is love, right, And if you can't, you haven't got there yet.

You don't love it properly And I'm sorry to dispel any myths, but if you can't love someone so completely that they are safe to leave at any stage, not you're a human.

They gave me goose bumps, because that's.

The big one.

TIF, that's the depth that we need to reach.

I love I love your there's a bit of a quota made up right now.

It's a bit fuck that I'm going to give it to you any love.

These people love your people so well that they know that that is safe enough to leave, love them so hard that they never want to.

M hmm.

Now that's a bit presomptuous.

But that's where we're at right.

I'm writing lots of notes because I love this episode.

I'm like, oh, that's really good.

I hope I hope that made sense.

Yeah.

I just had to send my colleague a quick message because she's offered me pasta for lunch and my bum my bum says no, but my belly says yes.

The best pastor in Australia, best plats in Australia.

So it is really important that we point that out to men.

So there are a lot of men that come through this system to who think that if I do this course, you'll want me back.

And so stage one is this is not a reconciliation course, dude, this is a you fucking sort your shit out course and see what happens.

Oh yeah, so we're going to dispel those myths early doors.

You've got to be quite aware of picking that up in conversations because they don't say it out loud.

You've got to really listen to what's not said.

You've got to listen to that.

Oh you almost went there and stopped yourself.

Look what are you talking about?

So it's it's a crazy, crazy space.

I fucking adore it.

I really do.

Full on, mate, it's full on.

What's what's marriage taught you about you?

That it changes all the time and that two grow together.

You've got to roll with the punches a little bit.

Oh there we go, even do that on Peron.

Yeah.

I like that.

Relationships equal sacrifice to a point, but what that looks like has to be protected, has to be careful and has to have checkings and discussions and hey we're doing not don't fucking checking when it's gone shit, checking when it's gone good, and go, hey we're cruising.

Is there anything you need from me further?

Can we do something different.

Is there something we're not doing that you wish we were doing, or blah blah blah.

So checking at the top, not the bottom.

It's kind of too late, right, yeah, So being able to have those big, open, beautiful conversations that do kick you in the nuts, but for all the right reasons that your ego doesn't get checked that when you take that away and sit it over there, because it's a noisy little shit and just go, it's not about you.

This is about me wanting to grow with this human who I fucking love.

What are we going to do?

How's that going to look?

Hey, i'd rather you didn't wear those bright pink T shirts because your man boobs are sticking out.

That's never happened.

But I just mean I want I want the humans in my life to know that they can at all times come at me with hard stuff.

Would change more getting married or having.

A child, Well, probably the kids.

The marriage is a tough one because you're saying, hey, you'll do forever and she would say the same thing.

And has it always been easy and comfortable?

Shit?

Now?

Are we very very different humans?

Absolutely?

But we're attained.

But the kids, goodness me, how can you produce such different humans in exactly the same way, And that's vastly, vastly different, you know.

And she teaches me more about hard stuff each and every day, and he he just cruises too much.

So I've got to push him out and I've got to hold her back.

And so even you know, even that's like fucking hell, what am I doing?

But none of us know, So you know, we're all guessing.

I'm just hoping some of it rescues them a little bit from that, from from their own expectation.

Yeah, you've got to be It's a hard thing to if you've got to be their safe space and the hard ass all at once.

Yeah.

I always think about that long when I talk to parents who have raised children, you know, and they're into their teens, and we talk about it, and I'm fastned by how how you how do you manage the how do I how do you manage trust enough trust that they will share with you what they need to share, but enough parental authority to parent them right and all the shots.

It's so difficult because because I said so just doesn't wash with the current generation.

Wish I knew that when I was a kid.

Ah, man, imagine pushing back against that when you're I would have got clip clipped proper.

So you have to have a reason.

You have to be able to explain it, and I can't always articulate it as well as i'd like, and I can't always rely on the fact, Oh you'll look back one day and understand, because I want you to get it now.

I want you to understand that this is the hopefully keeping you safe from your own self from those moments where you don't realize you needed to be protected.

Whatever that looks like.

You know, she's desperate to get a license lookout world.

Whereas he, you know, he's confident, not confident, And I love that because he's not racing around like a goose.

Right, sounds like me and my brother.

Sounds like you've got the same dynamics.

I was the rambunctious little shit head and he was, yeah, very sensible.

The really cool part is they give me so much knowledge growth experience that I literally take into the group, like I when I heard her say tightroping boom discussion, so that you know, it's just picking up what they're putting down and going, oh, actually, gez, they know some stuff that I didn't have to worry about when I was sixty.

What a great attitude too, Like to actually view it like that?

Why not?

It's learning everywhere?

Right, My ego is not so big tiff that I'm not prepared to listen.

And you know, I hear a phrase like that, and I just when it comes from her, I felt it like it hit me so hard in the chest, and I'm like, fuck, the kid's been old, not so tight.

Then my brain just goes, what does that mean?

Boom boom in this line of shitty things that she starts accepting because of that tightrope, and that scares the shit ouder.

It really does for all, for all girls, you know.

And then the hedrew Takes of the world come in and say stupid things that boys go, oh yeah, he knows what he's talking about.

Oh it doesn't.

He's a piss her little tiny doodle dickhead.

Reloquent.

I just make just just shut up and go away anyway, world a better place.

What are your plans for the future.

Ah, prevention not reaction.

I don't know what that looks like to if we talked about it before.

Just the more opportunity to get out in front of businesses in particular.

I think businesses and sporting organizations is where the pay is here, and not just talking to men, but talking to both sexes because I want.

I want if I'm having a talk and there's menu in the room and I'm up the front talking and then we both listened to the same stuff and we both agree, Yep, this ship needs to stop.

And then two days later I'm talking rubbish and you go, hey, you were in that seminar.

I was in.

I heard you agree that we weren't going to do this.

What do you do?

Pretty powerful, right, And so obviously it's a bit more nuance of that.

That takes a little bit longer.

But there's an opportunity here for businesses to do this.

Would it be better if it was in high schools?

Look, I'm not convinced high schools the answer.

I think it needs to happen before that because there's so much pressure on the kids to be something, and so you're going to get them in there and carry on like dickheads.

Right, I don't need this shit, whatever the case may be.

But you get them individually, there's no way to hide.

They become different people.

You think about what they say about our beliefs and programming and our first what is it seven years of life or something?

Is that those early years of our life is where so much gets programmed.

Yeah, so yeah, high school's too late.

High school is a bit too late.

I reckon.

I would love for these conversations to be happening.

Is four, five, six, So before you might kick it off, you five, you step it up, you six, you're quite confronting with it.

Just so they've got that knowledge based movement into high school.

So when a teacher or a wellness officer or whatever the fuck they are says, hey, don't do that.

I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, like it can be that simple, right when I have heard that before here Right.

The other big thing is look at to stop expecting the teachers to do it.

I don't think it's fair.

So if I'm a kid and you're my teacher, and I know that you're in this DV space or talking about appropriate relationships and everything, well suddenly I change what I say around you.

So now you don't even see that there's a threat or a problem or an issue.

But if I trained the teacher just to hear it and then refer it and there's some random dude with a big tanty, cool look and beard who's strut around the school for a few days a week.

You've now got someone to go and have a chat, to walk the playground with someone, and so forth.

That's how it's to happen.

Let's wheel you out there steado.

That wouldn't be nice.

I will need wills soon.

Where can people find you?

Will follow you or reach out to you as.

If you know what I heard.

I heard Doctor Bruce was at there mention now other day and he said they can fucking find me.

Say, if you really want to find me, just google my name and you can work it out.

There's nothing hidden, so just just google that and move on.

There's a website.

It's a bit ship and one day it won't be there's all the socials.

Just my name and go from there or done.

If it's okay, definitely do.

And if anyone hasn't heard the first episode with Jamie, it was episode nine three nine and it was brilliant, So go and have a listen.

I gotta go listen to the rest of it now because I've got quite getting into it before I had to log on for this chat.

Thank you so much, like I love the work you're doing, and I think there's such important conversations.

They always make me think really really deeply about the issue.

So thank you.

Thanks Tiff.

I want to say it's probably the first podcast I've been on for a long time where I didn't cry, but you nearly got me early doors, so appreciate it.

I feel like I've let myself down there.

I'll go and have a think about that.

I apologize to my audience.

We've missed an opportunity.

Maybe you're just getting more resilient.

Yeah, maybe the same point.

Thank you.

Thanks everyone.

Hm, she said, it's now never.

I got fighting in my blood.

Gotta to body coast, gotta true, gotta to locusts.

Got it.