That Hoarder: So I am here with Dr. Jan Eppingstall. a counsellor in Melbourne, Australia who specialises in working with people who hoard. She also has a PhD in hoarding. Jan, how are you? Dr Jan Eppingstall: Excellent. Thank you very much. What's happening in your part of the world? TH: It is very suddenly autumn! We went from abnormally hot to, overnight, grey skies, rain. Definite September vibes here now. JE: So we’re the exact opposite of that. And it has suddenly got very warm, but it is flitting between very warm and very cold each day. Yeah, so typical Melbourne weather. TH: So in Jan's last episode, we talked about things that might look like hoarding but are actually something else. Some of the differential diagnoses that we talked about included things that had a common theme, which is executive dysfunction. So today, we're going to talk about that. So Jan, first of all, can you explain what executive function is so that we can then go on to understand executive DYSfunction? JE: Yes, exactly. So executive functions are the command-and-control processes of the brain that allow us to perform goal-directed behaviours. And it's basically like a conductor of all the cognitive skills and mental skills that allow us to play with ideas, think before we act, resist temptation, stay focused and flexible and flexibly adapt to changing circumstances. That said, in a nutshell, they can then be divided into two groups. So you have the organisation, gathering of information and structuring it for evaluation and then regulation. So taking stock of your surroundings, changing your behaviour in response to it. And these higher order brain functions are in our prefrontal cortex. So in the frontal lobe of the brain, thus, the most developed part of our mental capacity is in the prefrontal cortex. TH: So a site called understood.org says that executive function is responsible for many skills, including paying attention, organising, planning, prioritising starting tasks, and staying focused on them to completion, understanding different points of view, regulating emotions and self-monitoring, which is keeping track of what you're doing. Now, even just reading that list, it becomes clear that there are themes that are very relevant to hoarding. And while you might hear about executive dysfunction mostly in the context of autism and ADHD, you don't have to have either of those things to struggle with these things, right? JE: No, certainly not. And in autism and ADHD, the brain is wired differently. I mean, many see this is a disability. And I guess it is in a neurotypical world but in actual fact, it's merely a difference. But also traumatic brain injury, stroke or dementia can significantly impact the executive functions. And in these cases, there is an organic difference in the person's brain. But many, many other environmental reasons can lead to executive dysfunction. Like if you suffer from depression, this can impact your ability to organise and execute plans. So many of us struggle with that if we have suffered from depression. Recently, many, many, many people many friends and people I know have been describing brain fog in relation to things like long COVID. But we often hear of those with autoimmune diseases like lupus, arthritis, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis, MS, reporting those persistent difficulties with concentration and focus, memory and clock mental clarity. So there's just a whole raft of things that could be impacting and not allowing us to use our executive function in the way we'd like. But also, our executive functioning can be dulled as a result of poor sleep hygiene, stress, medications, vitamin deficiencies, hormonal changes, or diet. It's just such a difficult thing to pinpoint why that part of your brain is really not working how you'd like it to. TH: And that leads nicely to my next question, actually, which is: do we know what's going on when we have what is commonly referred to as an executive function fail? Is it something cognitive, is it structurally in our brains or learnt, or something we never learned to do is situational. I start off with the easy questions. JE: And I say it could be all of the above, could be all of the above. Look, the truth is executive dysfunction can only really be measured by standardised testing to see how well our executive function works at a single point in time. So right now, fMRI tech is not widely available to actually look at the blood flow that occurs within brain regions, and to see the activity of which part of the brain's handling these critical functions. And studies really are limited in what they can tell us about what specifically going on. I wouldn't put it past the billionaire's boys club to include some sort of an fMRI in our next smartphone update. But even if we did, they don't allow us to draw conclusions about any individual's brain because the level of activity, it's never the same twice. Like, you could measure it now and then measure it in an hour or measure it tomorrow, and it will be different, because of all these other factors, all these other variables. fMRI studies are pumped up as being this gold standard. And that's wonderful, we can see all these things going on in the brain. But a task-based fMRI as they currently use it, can't actually tell you what an individual's brain activation will look like. Like we can't predict anything from one test we can't predict anything from the FMRI. And it just doesn't tell us why, it doesn't tell us is it situational? Is it because you're tired? Is it because some trauma’s happened to you, all that sort of stuff. Is it structural? We can't tell from that. So maybe we just haven't ever really learned how to use our executive functions in the most effective way. It could be all of the above. It might be a combination of those, or it could be more one than the other. But we just can't really tell why it's happened. We kind of know it has happened, because we haven't been able to manage a particular situation well, but we can't know why at the moment. TH: And fMRI just to be clear, is functional magnetic resonance imaging, it sees what's going on in your brain as it happens. JE: Yeah, so basically, it's about the blood flow. And I don't know exactly how it works. So I'll just say that it does show you where the blood’s flowing. So that the idea is that's where the activity is occurring in the brain at that time. And we keep coming back to that in research, but we cannot tease out what it is that is causing that activity to happen in that person's brain at that time. TH: And if we find we do struggle with executive dysfunction, is this something we can change and improve in ourselves? JE: Definitely. Executive functioning can actually be improved through targeted practice, we need to practice it. And we need to challenge it, not just use it. I think that's key as well. But the interesting thing is, and I discussed this in my thesis chapter on cognitive performance in hoarding, things like mood and stress are likely to impair anyone's executive function TH: It's why, when someone’s got a new baby, they can't make a decision because they haven't slept for a week, regardless of their normal state of mental health, or their normal state of neuro divergence. JE: Exactly. If we're stressed or depressed, especially if we've just had a baby, and all of those sorts of things, or someone's passed away in our life or any sort of stressor like that, our inability to get it together - because we do we feel like that, ‘I just can't get it together’, that's how we describe it, when we can't use our executive function, it's like, I can't get it together. If we're stressed, then we are likely to fulfil the prophecy. We need to increase our awareness of how we work as well. So knowing more about those internal workings of our executive function is worth tapping into and looking at. Observe and take note of your tendencies. And when you find it more difficult to maintain focus or when you become hyper focused. Or when you act before you think about the consequences. We're not saying none of us do that. But if you reflect back on it, you can use that information to inform future behaviours. And also, we can identify our strengths and weaknesses, and then lean into our strengths rather than just focus on what we're not so good at. But what I think is really exciting is that there's a lot of activities that we can do to improve all executive functions, like the whole bunch. So music, dance, theatre, sports, like soccer or basketball, if you like team sports, are really good at assisting with your executive function. Traditional martial arts like taekwondo are really, really great. There was a huge systematic review done a couple of years back that found that mindful movement activities like martial arts, again, and Qigong and Tai Chi, show the very best results for improving your executive function. So I can't stop hearing people talk on and on about Qigong, I haven't tried it but I've heard it is amazing. So have a look, see if there's a local Qigong class, you could go to or a Tai Chi class. But it really does help with improving your management, frontal lobe activity. But also things like caring for an animal or cooking or wood work or sewing, they all require planning and flexibility and stick-to-it-iveness, creative problem solving. Those are the types of things, particularly things that use the physical and the mental combined, are really good for strengthening that part of your mental functioning. TH: I did Tai Chi for a while. I used to have a neighbour and we were both really bad insomniacs. So I would quite often be round at his or he'd be around at mine at about two o'clock in the morning, just chatting. And there was like a 3am, 15-minute TV programme where you could watch and do Tai Chi, and we started doing it, partly not taking it very seriously. But we both got quite into it. And then it was like, if you're going to be up at 3am and talking nonsense with the guy down the road, it's quite a nice way to spend that time. JE: Yeah, and Qigong is similar, I hear it's similar in that mindfulness, it's mindful movement, isn't it, which can really be helpful. But I swear, about a dozen people have told me I need to try Qigong. So I think I eventually I will, I promise and I will report back. TH: We know now how to create habits. So yes, that can become your next habit to create. JE: I just crossed my fingers. Hopefully! TH: We're going to look now at some of the ways executive dysfunction and hoarding can go hand in hand, including tips to manage this stuff better. And one big one that comes up a lot involves a word that I can't say very well, which is task initiation, which is getting moving, getting started. And this is huge for me. And people often think that it's that you can't get started on a task that you're dreading. But sometimes it's a task you want to do, you just still can't get going. What is going on when we can't initiate a task? JE: This is so interesting. Because it's a question I constantly ask: why can't you just get out of the chair, complete the task, even something I really want to? Like I really, really want to do this thing I really need to do. But I think the answer is really idiosyncratic and context specific. So each of us has our blocks, things that block us off from being unable to initiate something as a result of perceiving we have a lack of self-efficacy, we just don't think we know how to do the task. So we put it off. Even if it's something we really want, if we don't actually know how to go about it, then chances are, we think we're better off to not try than try and fail. We avoid taking that first step because we don't know where to get started. That's a big one. We know what we want. We know the outcome. But we can't work out where to start. The task just seems unclear. Again, like we sort of know but we're not quite sure. And that's easy for us to push aside and just think, I'll just stay sitting here until I feel the urge and I have that overwhelming motivation, which never comes and just it feels too big and complex. But I think also some of us, our nervous system might be in shutdown. Sometimes we’re really in that turtle mode, moving in any way for any reason seems impossible. Maybe something triggered dissociation and all you can do tonight is just sit and watch reruns of Kath and Kim lying on the couch. That's all you physically can do. There could very well be something that's triggered it. So I guess what we can do is notice, when that happens, what happened before, and come up with a way to circumvent or deal with that to stop it happening again. Or allowing it to happen and decide that you'll talk to yourself with self-compassion, with that compassionate voice when it happens next time so you can keep the stress reduced, because that's part of it, isn't it? As soon as you don't speak with a compassionate voice to yourself, you get stressed, which means you're even less likely to initiate the task. TH: That feels like it ties into something that changed a lot for me when I was doing CBT, which is when you can't, I can't I can't I can't, I would pre-CBT just go, I can't, full stop, leave the room. And what one of the things that CBT taught me that was so valuable was to question it further. Why can't I? And that will highlight a lot of those things you've just brought up. Okay, the task is too big. Okay, well, okay, I know how to deal with that particular problem. I know that the solution to that is make it a smaller task, break it down, or whatever. Or if it's, I'm not fully sure what I meant to be doing… I sometimes have that at work. If there's something I'm meant to be doing and I feel like, I'm not entirely sure, then rather than clarify, I will just panic. And not, you know, ask. And if there is a block, and you can work out which block it is, you're in a much better position to go, Okay. I know the solution to that. But if you stop at No... JE: Yeah, exactly. It's that curiosity of exactly why is it that I can't do that? And I can't yet or I can't right now, or I can't, you know, and why is it not something you can do right now? So that is definitely something we can all do more of that. Rather than taking our word for it, our own word for it, we should just drill down a little bit more. Because we wouldn't accept that from someone else. You know, I wouldn't accept that from one of my children, if they said, “I can’t, blah blah” TH: Yes! “Will you make me a cup of tea?” “No!”. JE: What do you mean, no? Yes, you can, you don't want to! And then it's that whole questioning. Yeah. And CBT is really good at that. CBT is really good for that sort of thing. For sure. TH: I always say it's not a complete solution. But what it does, it does very well. So recently, I needed to leave the house to post a parcel I sold an old phone on eBay, 400 pounds! JE: £400? That’s unbelievable, that’s like $800. TH: I know! I was very pleased with that. So while I do not advocate selling everything, because that trips you up and slows you down and all of that, the odd time you get 400 quid for a phone that you weren't going to use anymore... So I needed to leave the house to post the parcel. But because I didn't have a deadline, like a time I was meeting someone or an appointment, I could not get myself moving. Like if I'm meeting Jan for lunch at one o'clock, I know that I have to leave at half 12 And I can do that. But if it's just like ‘sometime this afternoon, I have to go to the post office’, it’s torture. I just cannot move. But what I did, and I don't think this would work every time but what I did was I texted my best friend, and because she knows me so well. I didn't need to explain. I said I need to leave the house. I don't have a deadline. Can I text you when I'm out? And that will be by 3pm. And she was like yeah, like there's no further explanation needed. Yeah. Sure. And as it was getting closer to 3pm I was like, I said I would, so I will. And it got me moving and I texted her at three minutes past three outside going, yay, I've done it! And I don't know whether that's accountability or if it's like externalising the deadline. But could that trick work with hoarding stuff as well? JE: Definitely. This is a combination of things that could help, right? So it's both that externalising and accountability. I think it's an excellent strategy. What I think is most powerful is your flexibility to try something new. Using that creative problem solving to tailor a method just for you. I think that is the most powerful part. Many, me included, many of us are ready to rationalise why a strategy won't work for us. But we don't actually test it. It's like, oh, no, that won’t work for me for these reasons. I haven’t tried that, but I just know, I just know, I don't need to try it. And we don't use that idea for that strategy and then make it work for us. We’re just immediately saying something work that won't work for me. If I had a dollar, seriously, for every time, someone said, Oh, that won't work for me. TH: I'm more open to testing things than I ever used to be. JE: Yeah, that being curious and experimenting, it really does help. It really, really does. I also think that grouping tasks can help you get moving. Just going to the post office might not be enough to get you showered, dressed and in the car. That's especially if you're working from home, and you haven't got any appointments or anything that day, perhaps organising to catch up with someone for a quick coffee that day can help. Even if they beg off, chances are you're still dressed. So you're going to have one less excuse to head out. But trying to group those things together and having more than just one thing to do, especially if you're accountable to someone else, I'm meeting someone else or I've told someone I will post it at that time, on that day, as well, that could help, just saying to the person who's purchased it, I'm going to post it, and you will get it by… Yeah, that could be enough. TH: Because I know I'm so deadline oriented in all my life, I know that if at work, I'm discussing a task with somebody. I know that if they don't say, can you do it by Friday, I say I'll get it to you by Friday, because I need there to be a deadline. And I know that giving myself a deadline in my own head does very little. Some people can set incremental deadlines and do it because they set the deadline. That doesn't do it for me. But if I've said to somebody else, I'll do this. And I don't want to let them down, I want to save face, all of that. So part of it is about knowing your own weaknesses or patterns or, or whatever, isn't it? JE: Exactly. And the other thing is, I was talking with a client about this the other day, and I couldn’t remember the word for it, but it's Parkinson's Law, which is the activity will take up as much time… TH: Expand or shrink… JE: Expand or shrink, right. So that definitely happens to me. If you want something done, who do you give it to? The busiest person, it's all that sort of stuff. Because the longer I’ve had to do something, the less likely I am to get off my butt and do it. So you know, when you're busy, man, can really, really be effective. TH: Whereas if you've got one thing to do all day, absolutely hopeless. I know a friend recently went back to work after maternity leave. And she's now doing three days a week instead of five. And she’s self-employed so she was worried about the impact on her income, but because she knows she's only got three days. She's actually nailing every minute of those three days. Because there's less time to do it. Yeah. JE: I'm just going this four-day week thing. Like really, we should all just be doing that, gunning for that ourselves, because you really do eke out every minute if you've got less time. You really do. And if you’ve got a child at home waiting… TH: Yeah, and whenever it's tested out, productivity goes up, not down when people do four days, every time. JE: I know, I know. TH: So another thing I've done when I can't get started is to almost trick myself into it. By telling myself I'm actually doing something else. If I can't get bags to the bin, I tell myself, I'm not taking the bags to the bin, I'm just going to put them outside the front door. That's all I'm doing. And then when it comes to it, I'm there in the open front door with the bags, like just think, Oh, I may as well take them out to the bin. And, you don't need to get up and go into the other room, which you've been trying to do for three quarters of an hour. But get up and have a bit of a dance around. And then once I get up and having a bit of a dance around, I could just go into the next room. Right? Why is that helpful? And are there good tips we could learn from that for hoarding and acquiring? JE: Oh, look, I think it works because you've removed the pressure, or the pain of having to do something, you just want to feel good. And you want to avoid pain. So usually we're avoiding something that we perceive as extremely difficult or boring. And when we tell ourselves, we just need to get the bag outside the front door, we feel good, a little dopamine, we feel even better when we actually put it in the bin, take that extra step. So it's like, I did more than enough! Again, remember that the size of the behaviour doesn't matter to your brain. We talked about that in the podcast we did about habits, it's our judgement that impacts our sense of achievement. Could be that to wiggle your big toe would be enough. And it's also compassionate to do that. It's allowing you… that self-compassion allows you to try and fail and it gives you room to be yourself and be enough. Well, I only need to get it that far. Rather than are you lazy? TH: Yeah, yeah, that's really true. Yeah. JE: For God's sake, you tell yourself, you say that stuff to yourself? Come on! Wow! Are you that lazy? If a family member or a partner or something said that to you, you certainly wouldn't be getting up out of the chair. You would be stuck to that chair. You'd be adamant. No. TH: Yeah. And the next step, after starting something, is being able to stick with it, which is another area where people who struggle with executive function can get stuck. I find that sometimes I am single minded, I am hyper focused on what I'm doing. An earthquake wouldn't stop me. Other times, I'm flitting from one thing to another to another to another, and unable to settle on anything. And I think that's quite human, but it can get in the way, when I'm trying to dehoard in particular. So how can we improve our focus or our ability to stick with things we've started? JE: Ah, this is so super interesting. This idea of hyper focus and distractibility. I recently came across a book that I mentioned in the last podcast, Ed Halliwell and John Ratey have written, ADHD 2.0. And they've summarised in the book some emerging evidence around this topic, and it links in with what we talked about before about movement, which I think is really fascinating. And it may or may not be relevant for everybody. But you might find that sometimes you're forced into hyper focus when you don't want to be, or you can't switch out of distractibility when you want to do that deep work. Is that what you mean, like it's sometimes your hyper focus, but you're really like, I need to stop doing this now. But you can't seem to stop. TH: Yeah. Someone said to me once that with ADHD, it's not that you can't focus, it's that you can't choose what you focus on. And, again, as we talked about in the previous episode, I don't know if I have ADHD or not, but nobody would be surprised if I did. Ditto autism. JE: Exactly, exactly. And if it helps, if it describes something that you experience, who you are you hurting by using some of the tips and tricks? So this is super, super interesting. I was super interested to read this, it gave me a little bit of an insight. And I'm thinking, Oh, okay, this could help people. So when you're engaged in a task, there's various clumps of neurons that work together, in what is known as the task positive network, or the TPN. This is when you're engaged in a task, when you're not conscious of whether you're happy or not, you can become frustrated at times, but then you'll keep on task and those moments pass and you keep going. It's essentially a flow state. But you can get stuck in this state, like scrolling on social media, going down an internet rabbit hole, they're all downsides of that hyperfocus. Most of us these days, are not focusing long enough on tasks that require cognitive attention, like cooking or reading a book, we’re passively consuming, like 30-second videos on Tiktok, or Instagram ad nauseam. And because the TPN is like a muscle, many of us are not exercising it enough and it atrophies. But when you allow your mind to wander from a task, or you pause long enough between a task, your brain actually flips into a different mode and uses a different branch of neurons called the default mode network, or the DMN. This is a brain state that allows for creativity, expansive thinking, daydreaming. It's like when you're daydreaming, and you walk into a power pole or something or you miss your train stop. It's that really sort of daydreaming state. And it's the way that we can solve crossword puzzles or come up with big new ideas for projects. That's the default mode network. It's also where we go to self-reflect and navel gaze. So it's where we're in our heads, right? And we're wishing and imagining these things. And for people who hoard who are often, in my experience, highly imaginative and creative people, they can often get stuck in that DMN, unable to switch out of it and get into deep work, right? And on that default mode network is a chatterbox. And it tends to be a mix of good and bad stuff. But it's often tuned into radio doom and gloom, talking about all our lifetimes of frustrations and disappointments and shame and all that sort of stuff. Now, what the research has found is that neurotypical brains are either in TPN, or DMN at any one time. But interestingly, those who suffer from ADHD, which is many people who hoard and who may be listening, both of those networks are online at the same time. So it's like the switch is sticky. So they're competing. The toggle switch is just not connected in ADHD. So the creative and imaginative person is flipping constantly from building something beautiful and amazing, to the depressive internalised sniping. Oh, that's ugly. God, you failed again, like the tortured artist, right? So we're battling in our mind. So what do we do to stop those two things competing? We know that neurons that fire together, wire together and we can take advantage of the fact that the default mode network can actually jump tracks and use that for good. So practice making that toggle switch move. So the minute you start shifting into that radio doom and gloom and castigating yourself, look elsewhere, do anything, walk around, do star jumps, feed the dog, sing a song. Some action. Zeroing in on your breathing or whatever. Use that 6-3-8-3 pattern of breathing. Basically, do anything to externalise yourself, to shift yourself out of that navel gazing state, something active. And then this will allow you to engage the task positive network and focus on the project at hand. So anytime you go off into that navel gaze, stretch, go oh, yep, whatever, sing a song, dance, and then you can breathe. And the more you practice that, the more you'll be able to actually shift it when you want to. You won't have to worry about it doing it without your consent. And so anytime it pops up, okay, what can I do now? I can turn my head, I can bob around, I can dance, whatever. It's about that movement. And that, I think, is what we talked about before. About task initiation, getting up off the chair, can help to get you out of your head and into your body. TH: I find sometimes even just saying out loud, stop it, it's like it wakes me up. And I go, okay, come on, do what you do. JE: Yeah. Sometimes I'll say to myself, when did you go? Where did you go? Like you almost want to slap yourself back into your own body, rather than being in your mind up in your head, because you really are ruminating. TH: Yeah. Yeah. And I think with sticking with tasks as well, this, they can be a real issue of a constant desire for novelty and newness. And I think that's certainly why I acquire sometimes I want and also why, say, shampoo, I want to try the new shampoo, I want to try the new shampoo. And then I buy the new shampoo. And I don't finish the old shampoo, because I need the new. And so I've got eight shampoos lined up that are a third used. And I think that with sticking with a task, it can be the same thing. Okay, I've started on the books, but look over there, there's this. And for me, just clocking that can be helpful. If I'm in the shop and there's a new variety of something, sometimes just going oh, that’s that desire for novelty again, can be enough to calm down the urgency of needing the new smelling shampoo. JE: The shampoo, exactly. Or the other thing that might work is just saying, oh, we'll be here next time. It'll be here when I come back. You know, it'll still be here. I won't miss out. Because that I think we talked about that. We've talked about that previously with the whole idea of scarcity like, I won't miss out, it's okay. It's okay. And if I do, would it really be that bad? Probably not. Probably not. And knowing that those are the marketing tools they're using going, oh, this is a brand new hair shampoo, chances are it's the same hair shampoo. TH: Yeah. I'm currently trying to work through some of my backlog of tinned food on the grounds that there's only so many spares a person needs and if I keep buying spares and never use them because they're spares, then I end up with what I've got, which is cupboards that are full and there's still more tins. And so I am testing doing fewer food shops and, when I do, strictly only buying fresh things like veg, basically, and making myself use what's in the cupboards. And it's an interesting exercise in challenging my fear of scarcity. There is plenty of food in the cupboards and yet in the shop, there's always like, Ah, I do like ratatouille. And it's testing my… I don't know… my resolve, or my anxiety levels or a combination of the two. But when I then don't buy new tinned stuff and shop my own tins in my own cupboards, I'm coming up with creative meals, because I have less fresh stuff deliberately in order to try and use this. And there isn't always what I would most want, but that doesn't have to mean that this doesn't work. I can just make something that isn't quite what I had in mind, but will be as good or will be nearly as good. And that that is fine. But it's work. My brain is working on this! JE: Yeah, exactly. It takes a lot. And we often just want the easy way out, don't we? To just go, Oh, God, all these other stresses in our lives just layer on top of us. Oh my god, I just want to get pizza from the shop or I just want to heat up some soup or I just… and that's the hardest. One thing I've done before, and it does work, I'll just type into a search engine the three ingredients I've got. It’s actually genius! It comes up with so many things and you think, I've got all those things in my pantry. TH: I did that last night! JE: Yes. Yeah. It’s actually genius. TH: I Googled how can you make jacket potato and baked beans more interesting. [Google Assistant interrupts] TH: Did you hear? She answered! JE: She answered! She’s nosy! TH: Yeah, and it's challenging my ‘things have to be just so’, it's challenging my over planning. It's challenging my ‘it will be a disaster if I want tomatoes on toast and there's no tomatoes’, you know? And it feels like important work that a lot of people wouldn't even think about, but that is challenging a lot of my touch points. JE: And it's just challenging enough. It's not over taxing, it’s just enough. Yeah. TH: Yes. I still have fresh veg, which is the most important fresh bit to me. Everything else, I'm working out. JE: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And that's a bit of pride there, going that was really good! I enjoyed that meal. TH: Yeah, I'm going to have that again. That's great. JE: And I shopped my own pantry and I'm working on these things that I've been struggling to change over the years. Because it's never going to happen in an instant. All of this stuff just takes practice. And it is work. It is actually wor,k that problem solving and trying and being creative. Even with something like food. It's very easy these days to just give up and get a takeaway. TH: Yeah, yeah. So prioritising is also a skill that can be compromised by executive dysfunction. And this felt to me really relevant to hoarding in two ways, actually. One is prioritising tasks. I think we can be quite prone to spending hours and hours on an area that's not that bad or not that important. And the other is prioritising what to keep. We struggle to work out what's important and what should be kept, so we keep it all. Or we don't know which bits to acquire, so we acquire them all. I don't know what colour I like, I'll buy both. So with executive dysfunction in mind, how can we improve our prioritisation skills? JE: Yeah, so you're just describing that whole thing where you engage in busy work. And you never seem to make headway on those important goals. Procrastivity, people are calling it, procrastination and activity combined. And often the low-priority tasks are physical and less cognitively taxing, right? So, laundry on autopilot. I'll quickly do a load of laundry, when our income tax is sitting there, needs to be done and it's overdue. It's a difficult multi-step project, it seems nebulous and scary. So you go, Okay, I know I can do the washing right now, it's better than doing nothing and just sitting in front of the computer. And we often tackle the tasks that are usually on the to-do list. So it's that habitual. Mindlessly slipping into our inbox. Like, I know I do that. And I spend the first hour of the day, when I tend to be more productive, faffing about with deleting marketing emails rather than working on my resume, or building a new website, or whatever it might be. And I think this is because there's clear delineations with timeframes, we feel comfortable doing those things. Because there's a beginning, middle and end of the task. It's kind of, okay, it's a physical task, I know how long it's going to take me, roughly, I feel comfortable doing it. And I know I can make decisions. And I know I have to do it anyway, it has to get done at some point. So that's our get out of jail free card. I know I have to do the washing at some point. So I may as well do it now. And avoiding all of those things that actually move you forward in areas where you want to. With bigger projects, we just can't understand what needs to be done and where to start. It's the same with task initiation, or procrastination, and what can we do to improve this. I guess we need to change our behaviours of how we set the scene for taking action with the goals that we want to achieve, and that and the things that will move our life forward. So first of all, we need to decide on what projects will move us in the direction of our values and limit the number we work on at one time to three, you just want three things. You can't have dozens. You might have dozens and dozens of wonderful ideas for projects that you might want to do, or you definitely want to do. Write those down. There's nothing wrong with writing down a big master project list with everything in your current notebook, just write them down. TH: Yeah, get it out of your brain. JE: Get it out of your brain and on there, because otherwise, you will be tossing those around in your mind for weeks. And add to the list every time you come up with it, because a lot of people when they go into that default mode network, all these amazing ideas pop up. And they feel like if they don't start them, or they don't do some action towards them, they'll lose it. Writing it down is enough. Write down in as much detail as you need, so you can come back to it. That’s all you need to do, in a reliable system that you know where to find it. TH: Not the back of a receipt. JE: Not the back of an envelope, or a back of a receipt or on a post it note because you're too perfectionistic to write it in a notebook because you might your handwriting might not be very neat. Write it in a notebook, it doesn't matter if it's messy. I'm telling myself that does not matter if it's messy. TH: And I've seen your handwriting on Instagram and it's not messy. JE: Oh! Oh! TH: But even if it was… I feel like our generation… I know we’re a similar… I’m a bit… JE: You're younger than me. TH: But I feel like my niblings’ generation has lost… I could, and still can, recognise handwriting on an envelope and have been fascinated by handwriting since I was a child. I handwrite letters. I love getting handwritten letters. And I remember you'd get birthday cards and Christmas cards and would know from the handwriting who it was from. And so I do clock handwriting. And so I noticed that yours is very neat. But even if it wasn't neat, or even if you get a word wrong and have to cross it out, or anything like that, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. When you're on your deathbed, you're not going to be going. And in 2023, I spelled a word wrong on my to-do list. And that is my greatest regret. JE: I think you would regret more likely not writing down, however messy, those amazing ideas that were going to change the world. But if you're worried about your handwriting practice, like I do, I practice my handwriting often. I use it as a mindfulness exercise. If you really are that worried, if that's important to you, which it is important to me. I enjoy writing. It's self-care for me, something I do that's relaxing. But writing it down just does get it out of your brain and onto the paper. In a reliable system. That's the most important thing. But next what we need to do is decide what three goals we can take action on, each and every day, that will move us forward. I encourage clients to prioritise actions that will improve their functioning, firstly, like one goal that's going to improve the physical functioning in the home. One goal around self-care or one action around self-care a day. And one action around connection. So every night before bed, write down one action related to a functioning goal, one action of self-care and one action of connection that you can do tomorrow. Small steps, set the bar really low. On progress, like we've talked before about tiny habits, the same with this, decide what time, you'll be able to do those actions tomorrow and set the alarm or externalise it and get a friend to text you like you've been doing. Set a timer, when you actually come to it, set a timer for each one. So you can even estimate a time the night before that'll take 10 minutes that or whatever, it will take 20 minutes, according to your energy level. So you might wake up and feel amazing and be able to work for like 25 minutes on your functional goal of clearing the kitchen bench. And then you take 15 minutes to drink a cup or in the sunshine or whatever and call a friend for a short chat. But if you're not feeling so crash hot, 10 minutes on the kitchen, take a midday nap of 90 minutes whatever it is that's going to, that you need for self care and cuddle your pet for half an hour. So you've done those you feel that you've connected with someone or something, you've done something for yourself, and you've made your space functional, because I think often what we do, we all do it, we're all guilty of it. We work on one part of our lives. So hard, we go so hard we go we've got to do this and I'm going to spend eight hours a day organising my space and, and then everything else just falls apart. So if we can kind of consciously do those things of self care and connection, even if it's sending a quick text to a family member or whatever, or just you know, I don't know anything like that. Walk outside and say hello to a neighbour. It doesn't have to be anything wildly crazy. It just it just does bring joy to your life and gratitude. I think that I think those things prioritising is really about understanding what will move you forward on the things that are important. That's what's hard. And I find it hard. But I try every single day to write three things down. And if I can take those three things off in those areas of self care activity, a connection activity and a function moving towards a front, whatever it is for me. I know that that's been a successful day. TH: Yeah, yeah. So mental flexibility is another aspect of executive function. And I can see that coming into play with hoarding in the sense that we can be very rigid in our thinking, getting set on a course of action and struggling to change that or struggling to do a range of tasks in one go. Probably the thing that did most to make me make a concerted effort to be more flexible in my approach to life was when we did the episode on perfectionism. And you described it as a form of rigidity. And I remember in that moment thinking, it's not that I think perfectionism is something to be proud of. But I don't think it's shameful to admit, but I hate the thought that I am rigid in my thinking, and yet, I instantly knew I was, but I didn't like it in myself. I've been trying really hard ever since. It's funny how what like one sentence can really, you did that? So thank you, Jan. JE: Okay, my pleasure. TH: I tried really hard since that moment of that episode, to spot when it happens, and go, Yeah, you're being rigid, chill out a bit. But if that's not enough for most people to just think you're being rigid. I don't like that. Because if somebody isn't that, appalled by the idea of being rigid, like I was, I was instantly repulsed, that that was one of my characteristics. Can we become more mentally flexible, particularly in relation to hoarding and acquiring? JE: Now, it's really hard for so many of us, particularly as we get older. Now, ways that we are ways of thinking and being and doing, we're just not like, we're not learning as much if we don't put ourselves out there, we're not really learning as much we could just keep going on as we always have. That being cognitively reflect flexible, includes like the ability to see an issue or a situation from a different perspective, right and think about something in a new, new way. It's also about taking opportunities, taking advantage of like opportunities that pop up, being able to be flexible enough to take that on, and adjust and change if something unexpected happens, which is a really tough one, I think that's a really hard one for people. And it's also the ability to admit when you're wrong when you've received new information, and find ways to succeed, even when there's unexpected barriers or problems. And those are a couple of the things that I think can be difficult for people who hold that whole idea to admit that what you thought could go in the recycling, can't go in the recycling. And the result is that you keep putting it you can't take that information on. So you keep doing that and things like that. TH: Will you keep buying batteries, even though you know, your battery stash will keep you going through several apocalypses you something in you says no, I know, keeping batteries getting new batteries is the right thing to do. And shifting off track course. It's really an awesome. JE: And what about when someone like me comes along and says, I used to work for a battery company. And I know that if the battery part if the if they're touching one another, then they drain? And people go what? Let's see you not going to put them standing up? No. So all these things that I tell people when they go, they can't like that? No, that doesn't happen. Like, yeah, that's happened, it does happen. So just being able to kind of, you know, absorb that information and and take that on board and then grow or change or flexibly ADAPT is really hard. I mean, people who hoard a very creative in taking new perspectives in relation to the use for everyday objects, right like that comes really naturally there. Just to find keeping or acquiring things is second nature as well. So you're cognitively flexible, but in a a really narrow way. So you're flexible in a really inflexible way. It's so when you're in the shop looking at the latest who daddy thingamajig you know, maybe think about thinking, maybe stopping and thinking well, is there another object that I already own that can do that job? Rather than thinking Ah, I need that Brand new, fancy, shiny, who's nothing? using that time to problem solve in the store, it's a little bit of a cognitive exercise just a bit of fun I'll experiment see what I can think of what might come up. Ah, yes, I can use five different things that I've got at home to do that job. I guess when you begin coming up with creative ways to use things that you want to keep, maybe consider whether your usual thoughts help or hinder you admitting that you didn't use or like this is the hole and admitting you're wrong when you receive new information, right. So admitting that you didn't use all of those toilet rolls for craft is actually okay. Because now you know that you won't use them ever. And that's okay, just to now say, I know now that that's not going to, that's not going to happen. And I can let those go. I think those are the things that's adapting to new information. That's fine finding ways to sort of succeed when there's problems or unexpected barriers or whatever. So those are the things that you want to try and practice because you already are cognitively flexible with your creative thoughts around how things can be used and what can be repurposed. It's just about pivoting that to something. Something else, TH: I think, with approach to dehoarding as well, especially if there's a lot of like, logistics, I know, we've talked before about how I used to feel like I had to plan out exactly how I would work on a particular area. And then I would start working on that particular area, and it wouldn't quite go to plan. So I would retreat, and have to start my whole big plan again. And it would never be quite right. And so I'd have to stop. And it took a while for me to go. Or you could go Okay, that's interesting. That bit works. And that bit didn't. So if I just shift slightly to the right, or if I just do this slightly differently, and adapt and learn and adapt and learn was a shift. And what's interesting is that as I've been doing that, with de hoarding, in particular, I'm doing it more in my life as well, in the rest of my life. There is some changes going on at work, and I keep feeling myself dig my heels in, and then going, Oh, that's that thing you do? Maybe recognise that? Drop your shoulders a bit, take it in? Don't go no, this is how we do it. And so it's applying across my life, the better I get at it. JE: Exactly. And that and there it is. It's like it that muscles in it. It's just that muscle. The more you the more you use it, the more and the more it generalises across all areas of your life. It really does. Because it is it is it is this cognitive flexibility that yeah, it's a function. It's a function that you need in all parts of your life. And that's excellent. That's amazing. Well done. TH: Thank you very much. So executive function. So executive dysfunction can make it harder for people to organise their stuff. And obviously, that's relevant to nearly everybody listening. I do have a note of caution about this particular bit, which is it's easy to say, I can't organise my stuff because of executive dysfunction, or I can't organise my stuff and that's why I'm messy. But I have come to realise that a good chunk of why I've struggled to organise my stuff is that I've been trying to organise a ridiculous amount of stuff. My ex girlfriend used to say to me like where you are organised, you are super organised. It's just that that's 2% of your life and everything else is gay off. And she was right even if I resisted here again at the time. It's just it's the trying to organise. A horde is almost destined to fail. So how do we know if our struggle organising stuff is an executive function thing? Or if it's just that it's virtually impossible to organise eight tonnes have t shirts? JE: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it is super important. Like, this is another flag, it's super important to remember that, we need to give ourselves some slack because organising is a complex process. And this makes it even more difficult by our pore space to start fresh, you just spent too much stuff in this space, it's, it's just makes it exponentially more difficult. But think about what it takes to dehoard We need to categorise our belongings. And this starts with like attending to the task. And then we need to make decisions about keeping or letting it go in a multitude of ways that we've you know, allow us to be true to our values, right, we want to avoid waste and we then have to problem so where items should go, and how best to make them easier to access, and then adapt our plans and strategy. So it's, it's when we find something, there's enough, it's a lot, it's a lot more stuff you've got you know, the more complex the process is, and the more time it takes, takes. So if you worked out how much time it took you to process one object if you wanted to work, work out some, some economics around it time and money it is it takes a long, long time. I think that there's a serious lack of experience in, in making these decisions and using your executive function. And the thing that I find working with people over a number of like, if I've worked for someone over a number of years, over a number of months, the things that start to pop up for them. That this I have to cut some corners, I have to make some decisions around when what what my values are, and how strict they are, or how flexible they are, and how much this is impacting my functioning, and I'm now able to take those cut those corners in order to achieve the result I want. And whether that's putting things that you would normally donate into the rubbish bin, whether it's letting like, letting go of things much more easily to charity, whether it be really limiting the amount of stuff you bring in, which is always a good idea. People over time, realise the experience of doing this just opens your eyes to exactly how difficult this is, once something is in your home. Once you've brought it in through the door. You're, you're you're attached to it before you bring it in. And then as soon as it's in your home, you're immediately you know, the endowment effect immediately makes you want to just keep that thing regardless. So it might not necessarily be executive function, it could just be volume, it could just be way too much stuff and decision fatigue and all those kinds of things. But it is a difficult thing to do organising and de hoarding takes all of those everything. And you can imagine if you're if you're not it may be a few not not not so well yet you suffer from depression. Maybe you have other physical illnesses, disabilities or those types of things. It's going to be even harder. So we need to cut ourselves some slack. TH: And especially if you've lived in happy denial for a long time is not a skill. You've practised for 10 years. Organised anything in your home because it's felt necessary to say to yourself, everything is fine. And so if I find organising or categorising or something like that difficult and my instinct is to avoid it. It does help to say to myself, this is hard, but the only way it stops being hard, is if you keep doing it, then it will be less hard. And that plate I don't want to make mistakes, I don't want to be wrong, I don't want to do it wrong. But the only way I can get to a point where I make fewer mistakes, or where it's easier, is by practising it. JE: Yeah, the only way… TH: The only way out is through. JE: The only way out is through. And that's all I can. That's all I could say. And just the, just the just talking with people that I work with, and how much that shifts over time, like just how, six months ago, I couldn't have done this six months ago, this wouldn't have happened, and it is all them. They do 100% of it, it is them. And their wish and their motivation to change. And then dogged determination and continuing to practice that gets them results. There's no magic bullet. TH: And if you're listening, and you're where I was five years ago, where you're convinced that what you have is an organisation problem and not a volume problem. I need to tell you that you might need to reconsider that as your core truth. Because as Jan was saying, when you have so much stuff and so little space it's unlikely to be an organisation problem solely. JE: Yeah, yeah, unless you've got a massive mansion and, and a team of professional organisers who come in weekly, and that's the only way it's it's purely an organisation problem, to be quite honest. TH: So we also need to talk about working memory, what is our working memory in charge of first of all? JE: Okay, so our working memory is the ability to hold information in our mind and work or playing with it. Right. So that's different to short term memory, short term memory is holding information in the mind without manipulating it. So that's really important to make that distinction. So working memory enables you to, as I said, mentally play with the ideas and relate one idea to another. So make those sort of free associations and things. reflect on the past or consider the future. So we're doing that now working memory, remembering multi step instructions and executing them in logical order. TH: We're going to come on to that. JE: Remember, a question you want to ask as you're listening to an ongoing conversation, so the ability to hold that there while you listen and process that elsewhere. So and making any making sense of anything that unfolds over time, where we need to hold something in our mind that happened earlier and then relate it to what's happening now. So ways we can improve our working memory are things like doing mental maths or playing storytelling memory games, like when one person starts the story and the next person repeats what the other person said, and then add to the story, that type of thing. And genuinely storytelling and getting feedback on how logical the story was to hear is good as well. Because I do find with practice, the more you storytel either in writing or, or verbally, yeah, it does really improve your working memory. So that's what working memory It's about that playing around with things in your mind, it's not for holding that information. So often what we do is we do try to hold that information in working memory where it really should move to short term memory. But we want to have it there, because we're scared that we're going to forget it, TH: Which is why lists are good. JE: Yes. TH: So I know that working memory helps us with planning. And so I can really see how that's another area of executive function that's related to hoarding. I think the logistics of de hoarding are just as tricky as the emotional stuff at times, because that degree of logistics and planning is hard. How can we improve our planning skills, maybe regarding to a schedule for D hoarding, or, like D hoarding over time, or a logistics challenge, like, I need to organise this stuff, but there's no space and that thing? JE: Yeah, so that's the hardest. That's one of the hardest pieces for the people that I work with. And one of the things that really helps is another person's perspective. So having a secondary person come into that space, because you're so used to your space, you're so used to your stuff, that sometimes you don't even recognise that they could be in a different, it could be managed in a different way, it could be stored in a different way, all those types of things. And if you're on say, for example, you're on the spectrum, you might just have a, like, you might have a completely different different way of seeing things and just having someone else come into the space can really help with that. I think planning skills are often you know, what I really feel, what I find most often is, when people hoard, they don't have, they don't have the space to sit down at a table at you know, a clear space to sit down at the table with a notebook and plan, what they, they want to do everything on the fly everything, there's no nowhere to actually do that planning. And then I feel a lot of houses I go to, there is no way there is no table to sit out, there's no way to do that planning. And I feel that because it's a logistics exercise, you really do often need to do it visually. Sit down and even draw the space and think about where things might go. But there's not the physical space to do the planning. So start, maybe start there, you know, start there with making a space so that you know, you can actually do that planning. And, and the logistics, think about having someone with fresh eyes come into the space, someone who's non judgmental, of course, someone who you know, someone who cares, who's compassionate, but it can really make a big difference. And planning. Again, you just have to practice plant you just have to practice you just have to think about what's the very next step, what can I do? What can I do now what if this happens, what will I do then all that thing. But a lot of it is not having the space to plan in the first place and also not having the space to then categorise, organise, sought. I don't know whether this was something that you felt. But I have quite a few clients who said this to me. They can't bear the idea of even moving things. In order to create a space, even even if I say no, we're not letting anything go, nothing will go we're just moving it that is even that is hard. And if you can be flexible in that in that way. Yeah, you actually move things so that you have space to physically do the job. It won't become easier. TH: That's something I'm okay with but that I have heard from other people. I'm also finding for myself, that having in terms of goals, goals is a big word. But I'm finding that having, for me, really big, long term goals are too tenuous. They don't really get me where I want to be. So I'm finding that having a mixture of short term, medium term and long term goals, is is doing it for me at the moment, at the moment, because who knows what my brain will do next week. JE: Exactly, exactly. TH: I've been doing a lot of work in the kitchen, and it's like, I want to be able to, I want to clear that space over there. That's my medium term goal. And then my, then I have to work out okay, to clear that space, I need to make some space here. And so that's my short term goal. I need to do this to do that. That, and that's working for me better than when the house is fine. Exactly to, to yet to long term is to overthink key as well. Whereas if it's very much, okay, by the end of the week, I want to be able to do that I want to be able to use my kitchen table, or I want to be able to use my bath for whatever your situation is. That for me is what I'm considering my medium term goal. And then my short term goals are the bits I need to do to make that happen JE: To make that happen. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think that is a really excellent point, having those short, medium long term goals, because you're right, it is I was I want to say it's like Tetris, but it's not like Tetris, it's like that game where you've got the little cubes. And there's one space free. And you have to try and make the picture. That is what it is, I don't know what those damn things are called, if it was touch, if it had a single word that it'd be brilliant, it'd be a brilliant analogy. So if anyone knows what those things are called, please tell me but it that is what it's all about. And it's being able to use your you know, your frontal, your prefrontal cortex, your executive function, to actually imagine and split and do that in your mind. And plan how that could happen. That is where you know, practising that and doing that again, and again, and again, you will just get better and better. And we've never done it before, chances are, you've never probably done it. TH: And with a bit of I don't know precisely how that middle bit will work, but I'll work it out, sprinkled in as well. JE: Exactly. TH: So again, on working memory, I get very stressed when I have to do a series of tasks. If I go out knowing I've got to get petrol I've got to buy lentils, I've got to post a letter, I've got to pick up a prescription. It just my anxiety gets overwhelming. I'm convinced I can't keep that series of things in my head. Is that I mean, I think that is a working memory issue from what you said earlier. Would you say? JE: Yeah, yeah, it is. And I want I want this is what I this is what I think I think you're you're using, you're using your working memory for something that should be in any in your short term memory or written down on the list. Right? So thinking that you can keep all of that in your head when you've got other stresses and things your chances are you will forget something you'll fail you won't be able to do all of those things at once. As you're trying to decide on which is the most efficient way to do each task in your Yeah, what order to do them right. So I wouldn't So write it down in a list and then take five minutes to plan your strategy of where you will go. Because that five minutes I mean, it could save a lot of time. And a lot of you know self flagellation when you don't get the lentils or whatever it might be you know, it's okay we can relax even if it isn't the perfect shopping trip and just have a cup of tea. TH: I really like lentils. I will survive if I go a week without them. JE: I do really like there's something about that. If you haven't got that, and I know when I haven't got a lot of time, I'm much better at writing down the list and planning planning the journey. Because I haven't I haven't got that the luxury of an hour, two hours, I know, I need to get something done in a very short period of time. So I will write it down, or I'll say it aloud. I'm going to go here, here and here. And if somebody else hears me and says, Oh, but that's that straits blocked off, because they're doing that sort of stuff. You know, if I say it aloud, but just writing down the list, and then numbering them even is enough for you know, something like that. But you do really, I, I do think that unless your mind is relatively empty, at the time, you will probably forget something. TH: Yeah. I got some slack. Yeah when you're going from one room to another, and you know, you'll forget the thing you're going for. I quite often say that thing out loud on my way there. So, but it's hard to do that in the supermarket. Paying attention, walking. JE: The doorway effect, like when you go through doorways, or when you open the fridge or whatever, it wipes here. TH: That's why I say it out loud. Because every Yeah, even if I can't remember what I was planning, I can almost remember myself saying it. It's like a different bit of my memory somehow. Yes, yeah. Like that thing where you're not listening in school. And your teacher says, What did I just say? And you can say what she just said, even though you weren't listening? It's that one bit of my memory rather than the Yeah. So frequently losing things can be put down to certain executive functions as well. And it struck me that it's not so much that losing things is a problem with hoarding, necessarily. I mean, it is, but it's that's often more clutter related than executive function related. It's more that within holding the fear of losing or forgetting things, can make us feel that we have to have everything visible or within reach, which, by definition worsens our surroundings. I don't know if that's working memory or just general memory. But is there a way of reassuring ourselves that we won't lose or forget everything if we dare to put it away? JE: That's a very big question. And this is something that the research has not like that this is something that was pointed out in the very first studies that I need to have everything visible, I need to keep things within reach, I need to put the important things on top of the pile, but then more important things go on top of the pile, and then it's no longer top of top of mind or in in the line of sight, and then the unknown reliever and exactly, and then everything's all just disorganised again anyway. And there's no one has really picked this apart. No one has really worked out what is exactly happening. I think that the hardest thing about this is that when we hold we just have so there is no way for our brain to remember all the stuff we've got it's like wanting to put the Internet if you're praying you have to externalise that some out. You know, you need a second, you need to build a second brain stuff, we say that you can access information. And it's the same with our possessions. You know, if we've got hundreds of 1000s of objects, just thinking that we can remember where everything is, unless you have a particularly strong visual visual Visio spatial, some people do, right. So you'll know people will discuss the the lawyer who has piles of paper in their office and can go you want that deposition. And they pull it out, right because they've got Yeah, but not all of us. TH: I tend to know like the quarter of the room. It's in. Yes, somewhere over there. JE: Somewhere over there. Exactly. I think that one of the ways to if you really do have problems, forgetting where things are. I mean, a lot of people just take the doors off stuff you know, like have open open, open cabinets have a lot of people have cupboards with nothing in them and everything is outside. I have a lot of you know, I've had lots of clients like that where there's nothing in the drawers, nothing in the cabinets, because they need everything inside. And if that is the way you know if that is the way you need it, work with that. But with volume, you're always going to find it very difficult to find things. That's just the way it is. TH: I think things like see through boxes can help. Yes, labels. I'm one of those people with a label maker who labels everything. Because it's fun. I listened to a podcast about this very thing. But for people with ADHD, we had a professional organiser on it, I will link to it in the show notes. Who works. She's a professional organiser who specialises in working with people with ADHD. And they were talking about this very phenomenon, which is big in ADHD, but the solutions she was proposing. Were great if you Don't hoard really, because one of them was have as little as possible in your line of sight. So that the important stuff is there. And you can whereas if you've got a lot in your line of sight, she talks about like making a Wii with your arms. And can you only see the important bits you need to remember. And obviously in a hoarder at home, no. And so that degree of distraction, just visual distraction, inevitably makes it harder to not just put your hands on things, but to remember what's there. So maybe other another reason to try and improve your surroundings. That could be a motivator. But I think on its own. It's a tactic. That doesn't work for a lot of hoarders. But the other stuff she was saying was like what you were saying? No doors on your cupboards? Putting things labelling every books, even if you think you'll remember. JE: Yeah, yeah. And the other thing that I've done more recently, is I had I have a list in my bullet journal, which says, Where did I put it? So things that I've rarely, like things that are seasonal, things that I don't I write my calligraphy pens, and right where I put them because I don't use them. So I just have this list. And if it's something that I fear that I might not remember where I put it, I'll write it on that list. And so I noted go there. I mean, you could use a spreadsheet, for goodness sake. I mean, genius. TH: I booked tickets for a comedy show last night. And when I added it to my Google Calendar, I put in the notes ticket is in the ticket master app. JE: Right, exactly. TH: And if they'd emailed tickets to me, I would have said tickets are in your email, or if they were coming in the post, I would write down exactly where I put them. JE: Exactly. I think we've just got to take that extra little step because now we're just bombarded with information with possessions with out of so many different locations where things can be. It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. So we need to use strategies that sort of out externalise that stuff. Because we can't keep it all in our brains. We just can't. Our brains are not capable. TH: And we also can't keep it all at the top of the pile. Doesn't work. I have decades of experience to tell you it doesn't work. JE: No. I agree. TH: Because I tried it. JE: You tried it, and it was it was unsuccessful. TH: I continued to try it despite that, but yeah, it feels instinctual. I've got to pay that bill. I'll keep it there. But, it doesn't work. No. So are there any other examples of executive dysfunction issues that seem relevant to hoarders to you? JE: Look, I do the one thing I do want to mention. I think it's important to mention again, We've already discussed it a little bit, is that our state of mind impacts our executive function much more than we realise. So engaging in effective self care, stress reduction activities, is as important as practising and challenging all of these executive function skills. And it's also important to believe in it like, in self we need to have self efficacy, we need to believe that we have the ability to improve it, because we can it's been shown that you can improve it, but we have to believe that that can happen. And most of us have been led to believe that we perform better on cognitive challenges and things when we're a little bit on edge or under a little bit of pressure, right? We're, but the truth, like, the truth is that even mild stress can impair someone's executive function. And dealing with our possessions is really hard. It seems just so overwhelming, even just thinking about dealing with it. And that's enough to impair you know, to get to have your prefrontal cortex go offline. It's just enough, that little bit of thinking of thinking, I'm not sure thinking I don't know, thinking I can't. The so coming back to curiosity and experimentation, as a way to approach the de hoarding project in our lives is really important, I think. And again, if we can come from that place of self compassion, we're more likely to be able to successfully plan and organise all areas of our life. And the less we have, the easier it is. Yeah, the 10 tonnes of T shirts is surplus to requirements. TH: It is almost certainly like 9.8 tonnes of T shirts. Wait, I don't know how many T shirts point to have a tonne is JE: No, but it's a lot. TH: That's brilliant. That's so useful and actionable as well. It's just good to know that you don't have to go oh, this is thing I can't do full stop. You can go this is really hard. Oh, but there are things I can do to make it a bit less hard. JE: A bit less hard. I mean, we may not be able to make it easy. But we can make it a bit less hard. And we can also Yeah, it's purely by doing repetitive eating and doing can help. TH: So Jan, if people want to find you online, where can they do so? JE: They can find me on Instagram. And are we still calling it Twitter? TH: We're calling it Twitter. JE: So Instagram and Twitter at @stuff_ology. On Facebook, Stuffology Consulting, and you can shoot me an email Jan@stuffology.com.au Sign up for my newsletter on the website stuffology.com.au that comes out every Sunday for a few gems, totally for free. And, yeah, I look forward to hearing from you. I love getting emails from people. So don't hesitate. Reach out, reach out. TH: Thank you. Much appreciated. JE: May we take a moment to reflect on the meaning of place and acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we record and listen to this podcast today. I’m speaking on the lands of the Boonwurrung people of the Kulin Nation, and I acknowledge their connection to country, both land and sea and culture. We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. TH: Shout out this week to the Verywell Mind podcast, which I will link to in the show notes. This week’s top tip comes from Amy from the Verywell Mind podcast. Have a listen: A really simple way to express gratitude could involve sending a message of gratitude out every single day. Like you could text a friend and tell them that you were just thinking about something they did in the past that was really kind and how grateful you are to have them in your life, or text a family member just to say you appreciate them. You don't necessarily have to know people personally to thank them, though. Send a social media message to someone you appreciate, like a celebrity or a musician whose work has touched you. Thank them for the work that they do. Challenge yourself to thank one person every day for a month, see what happens to your life. You might find that you feel better and enjoy better connections with other people. I think that’s really nice, sound advice. Have a go. See if it improves your mood. It will definitely improve those other people's moods! Ok, thank you for listening, and I will speak to you next time.