Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the Why Smart Women Podcast.

A week or so ago, I did a recording of the podcast in conjunction with Richard Saunders from The Australian Skeptics.

So he has the Skeptic Zone podcast and I have this pod podcast.

And we got together and we did a live recording of our melded podcast, and it went very, very well, and it was awesome.

And we had a really good response from the um from the audience, and I'm about to play that for you.

But before I do, at the end of the um of the the panel discussion, which was mainly around um alternate medicine and the issues of misinformation being promulgated to the public, um Lara Bennham, who was convening the evening, asked her questions.

Um and what I'm about to play you is and she very specifically said, no statements, please, but what I'm about to play you is a response from a very um angry woman that had attended the evening in the Occidental Hotel in Winiard in Sydney.

So I'm gonna play you her response to our our panel discussion.

Here we go.

Enjoy.

Yeah, so it is getting a little bit late, but we do have time for a few questions if anyone has any.

If we can please keep it to actual questions, I'm sure people will be happy to talk to you afterwards if you have statements.

Hi, you mentioned um not wanting to give statements to the media to, you know, deny the other side a platform, and that you thought the media was getting the idea that um anti-vaxxers were all crazy.

And you used the word corker at one point.

Um, well, I used to work at Daily Mail, and our editor did in fact tell all the people at Daily Mail make anybody who brings anti-vax stories to our newspaper sound crazy.

And it was caught on video and it was released.

And I'd like to say that just like every other journalist, I always had the assumption that people who were um complaining about vaccines were also, you know, a bit crazy and they're a miracle of science.

But don't you think you should also question your assumptions?

Because that was tested for 2.5 months.

It's a medical product just like any other.

And because we all had that assumption, we silenced and censored the voices of people who are actually injured by mRNA and DNA-based genetic vaccines.

And as a result of that assumption, a lot of people were injured and some people actually die.

So I think for you to sit up there and be very self-satisfied about crashing out the other side.

The basis of science is to question assumptions and to base your opinions on evidence.

It's not to silence the other side.

What's your question?

A lot of people were vaccine injured because of that assumption, because media houses it's actually what you said.

Do you think that's a good idea?

Are you gonna do that in the future?

Make sure that you crush out the other side, you never examine your assumptions.

Did you ever examine your assumptions?

Did you ever read RFK's book?

Did you ever say nothing?

Because of that vaccine.

A lot of people died because of the mRNA and DNA genetic vaccine that were repurposed genetic therapies if you bothered to research it.

If you obviously haven't run the mic, you don't have to yell, it's all right.

Well, there's a doctor maybe just up the road, Professor Robert Clancy, and he's just published a book on it, and he pioneered immunology in Australia.

He's an emeritus professor from Newcastle University, he knows a bit about immunology, and he's written about how the mRNA vaccines have caused popularity.

Do you have a question?

Because you're making a why are you so self-satisfied?

Why do you call other people cookers?

Why do you de-platform people?

This is not science.

You are a shame on skepticism.

You're not real skeptics.

I'm not sure.

And you know what?

I I crisp once we wipe T.

Carroll with the skeptic dictionary in the 90s.

I blocked up my two picture with Richard Dawkins, so I won't be told I'm a cooker by people like you.

You're a bloody disgrace to skepticism.

I've been called worse.

Thank you.

Uh, the worst I was called was an asshole on the pimple of time, once a correspondent.

Any other questions?

Where we're at answer the question.

Uh the the the the answer to the question is there are some people out there in the anti-vaccination brigade.

It's we struggle, earnestly struggle to understand their thinking.

It is often based on arrant, nonsense, magical thinking, whimsy vaccines are a product, they're not a miracle.

Okay, they're a product like a car is a product or a bus is a product.

You're the magical thinker.

You think nothing can be wrong with it because it's got the magical word vaccines.

The genetic vaccines were pre-purpose gene therapies, and they never think he can talk about You're the reason my name is a stink can't play sport because he's got a damaged heart.

I'm the reason why your attitude got into my news and we didn't know.

Uh yeah, in a minute.

Please use it.

Please feel free to use it.

I'm sure there's a podcast that we'd love to hear from you.

Yeah, there will be a lot of things.

Any other questions?

Any other questions that are actually questions?

Well, I hope you enjoyed that.

Um my favourite parts were where it was um our fault that her neighbour's child could no longer um play sport because of the vaccine.

That's our fault.

Um, the other thing I enjoyed was that uh we live in Australia, not the United States, but she'd asked if we had read RFK's book.

Uh we have.

I wish I hadn't.

Um, but there seems to be um a positive understanding from the people that promulgate these ideas that that people like RFK um, whilst denigrating vaccines, are actively um selling and promoting their own vitamins and minerals.

So there's always this a sort of underside to these so-called um people that just deeply care about the health of um of us and our children.

And the other thing that I really enjoyed was the fact that she'd apparently climbed Machu Picchu with Richard Dawkins, and to the best of our knowledge, uh, we can't find any record of that.

Anywho.

So that was that.

It's always interesting um to hear the voices of people who were virulently um anti-vax and very angry.

And my um son, who is uh a social justice lawyer, did attempt to sit down with her and have a chat and um tried to sort of understand where she was coming from because it is important that we try and find some commonality, and um nothing really was resolved by that.

Anyway, um, so you've heard that, and here now is Richard Saunders, um, myself, Jessica Singer, Kate Thompson, and Lara Benham on the Skeptic Zone Why Smart Women Amalgamated Podcast.

Enjoy.

Respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples with us today.

Before the formalities, uh a little bit of housekeeping, we have a whole stack of skeptic magazines over there by the bar.

They are free.

Please help yourself, please distribute them to people.

Um, we are good we are recording this for the podcasts.

So when I say things, it would be nice if people reacted appropriately.

Um, but yeah, just give it your best shot.

Yay!

Yay, Lara!

Woo!

Wait a minute, hold that, hold that's all.

Um welcome.

Welcome to the Occidental Hotel here in the heart of downtown Sydney, Australia, for a live podcast recording in front of a studio audience.

Woo!

I'm Lara Benham, and tonight we present not one, but two of Australia's most popular podcasts together on stage for the first time.

No, it's always always one in every audience.

Yes, yes, it's the Why Smart Woman Zone.

Please welcome from the Why Smart Woman podcast, Annie McCubbick.

Woo!

Thank you.

I probably shouldn't really cheer myself, should I?

Absolutely, you should cheer yourself.

Okay.

And from the skeptic zone, Richard Saunders.

Cheer yourself.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Yes, yes.

Hello, Richard.

Hello.

Hello, great to see you here.

We should be doing this woman.

Okay, yeah, okay.

I'll try that again, shall I?

Hello, Richard.

Can you hear us through that?

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Actually, can you hear us anyway because of my actor's voice?

That's right.

Okay, good.

Do we need this?

Do we need it or can you just hear her?

Or is that better?

If you're not out of anyone online, be on.

Yes.

Yes.

But this is just especially for you people, because we love you.

You can always you can always yell out if if that's not uh appropriate.

Hello, our Annie.

Great to see you here at the Occidental Hotel for the live podcast recording.

Let's start off with Why Smart Women.

What's it all about?

Why Smart Women is a podcast that I created because I was cranky.

Yes.

And that's pretty much it.

That's a good reason.

Yeah.

I was cranky at the misinformation and the general crappy marketing that's pushed at women, um, that is not only expensive but dangerous.

Ooh.

So I'd already written a couple of books.

I'm going to plug my books now.

I'd already written a couple of books on critical thinking, um, which I thought I had to make critical thinking funny because most critical thinking books are written by men.

Nothing, you know, not casting aspersions on you.

I've written books, you know.

Okay.

All right, Richard.

He's written books.

Here we go.

Origami.

He's written books on origami.

All right, okay.

And anyway, uh as an a sort of an addendum to that, I thought I'm going to do a podcast that is also countering the tsunami of misinformation that is information.

That is aimed at women.

That makes sense.

That'd be a good name for a podcast, wouldn't it?

The tsunami of misinformation.

Should I change the name?

You should.

You should.

And you said you're telling me that you're uh you you're almost at 100 episodes.

I am at 100 episodes.

I'm actually I'm at actually the 102.

And and today I interviewed the Snake Gherkin, who is a very good debunker of all things pseudoscientific and Nazi.

We now have to include the fact that there's a Nazi presence that's infiltrating the Cooker movement.

So yeah, that's me.

What about you, Richard?

The Skeptic Zone podcast is well, let's see.

How long now?

Uh 896 episodes.

Good Lord.

809.

And have you been at the helm of all of those 896?

I've been uh uh the early episodes had a co-host, but I've always been the host and producer of the show.

But you produce it yourself, whereas I have Harrison to produce for me.

Ah, I guess I I'm useless technically.

Um Well, but I came up to your uh studio not long ago, about a month or two ago.

Yes.

Had a very nice recording session there.

Yes, but I wasn't in charge of the recording, you note.

Yes, that's right.

So what prompted you to start the podcast?

Crankiness or something else?

Uh fame, glory, of course, money.

Money, money.

Yeah, right.

Uh no, I I have been working on other little things like I did a video vodcast for a while, was about skepticism, which was like making a half-hour TV show every week.

That was just too much work.

And by the time I got to into it seriously, it was when podcasts were really just taking off.

Yeah, yeah, you you were a forerunner of the whole podcasting experience, weren't you?

It's interesting, interesting to note that um there are four big skeptical podcasts by why that I mean have longevity.

The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe, Skeptoid, uh, the Geologic Podcast are all older than mine and have more episodes.

Wow.

So I'm the fourth in that that list.

But we're all within about a year or so of the episode.

And for my listeners, can you just I'm sorry about the jingling.

That the issue is I have ears on.

She's wearing ears, yes.

Wearing ears, and I'm I'm sorry about the jingling.

I'm wearing antlers.

Anyway, Christmas antlers, because I'm in the spirit, sorry about the table.

Can you please unpack the notion of scepticism?

Because I think it gets co-opted and repackaged for for um evil.

For evil.

Evil ends.

Evil.

Sorry?

Re-packages cynicism.

Yes, cynicism.

Exactly.

People can't somebody asked me once if I went to skeptical um conferences and just sat around being sarcastic.

I was like, yeah, that and I said, that's Tim Mendham.

That's Tim Mendem.

You've confused me for Tim Mendem.

Skepticism is an open inquiry into, in our case, it's its claims of the paranormal, the supernatural things that are beyond the known laws of physics.

Uh that they're investigated with an open mind.

Does this claim stack up?

Now, after 25 years, personally, after 25 years, I I've reached, you know, what I think are pretty firm conclusions about various claims.

Like my experience.

Like what?

Anything to do with psychics, for example.

That's my special special.

We don't like psychics.

Uh so and you and people say, Oh, you bloody armchair skeptics.

Well, okay, I've seen dozens of them in action.

I analyze their readings.

I'm in the middle of analysing uh uh hours of readings right now.

So I sort of know what I'm talking about.

You do know what you're talking about when it comes to this, and other people in the movement have their special fields.

We have people like uh Ian Bryce, who's here tonight, who specializes in the physics.

So if someone comes along with an engine that says runs on water or hot air or whatever, he can analyse the physics.

That's his special we have uh Steve there.

Hi Steve!

Hello, Steve.

Steve Roberts from Melbourne.

Steve Roberts uh specializes in UFOs, for example.

He knows a lot about UFOs.

You fly one yourself or yeah.

Uh and and so people come to us and say, well, what about this?

And we can say, well, from our long experience, and the money on it on offer.

That's the UFO.

That's the bar, isn't it?

That's the bar.

The money on offer has been on offer in one form or another.

What do you mean by the money?

Can you explain for this now?

If someone can in fact that there are checks flying around, I think, on at the bar.

We have a hundred thousand dollar prize to anyone who can prove a paranormal or supernatural claim.

But James Randy, the year I was born, started this whole idea of offering money.

And that was 60 years ago.

So we we we have reached certain conclusions based on just lots of evidence, not based on us thinking, oh, I don't want psychics to be real, go away.

So why do you think in in the face of this you know clear mountain of evidence that, for instance, psychics are a bunk, why do you think they are so enduring?

Because I have friends that go to them constantly and I want to actually lie down and die when I'm gonna do it.

It's a very thing, it's a it's hard to explain very quickly, but unless the best analogy I can make is if you know how a magician does a coin vanish or something or pulls a rabbit out of the hat.

If you know how it's done, then you're not tricked, right?

If you don't know how it's done, you don't know the trickery, you can be completely fooled and think, did I just sit what's going on?

I don't know what's going on.

The same thing with psychic reading.

You need to know the psychology, you need to know the tricks, you need to know the interplates, the hot reading, the cold reading.

Hot reading, the cold reading, uh what Susan Gerbeck in the United States called motivated sitters.

Yeah, of course.

And we, of course, use motivated reasoning and confirmation bias.

So there's a lot to it.

There's a lot to it.

But that in a nutshell is, yeah.

Okay, okay.

Interesting, interesting.

All right, so are we going to introduce I think so?

It's uh it's bringing on, Lara.

Here's she, yes.

Okay.

So it is time to introduce our first guest for tonight.

It is pharmacist and skeptic zone reporter Kate Thomas.

And we should add in to the um skeptical inquiry that we are now involved in is what Kate is currently doing.

Yes?

Yes.

Hello, Kate.

Now let's she's let's sit around closer to this one.

She's tossing her Santa hat around.

Yeah.

Can you sit up?

In a very fetching manner.

There we go.

So you have to speak into that end that's okay.

I'm ready.

Okay.

Hello.

Hello, Kate.

Yes, okay.

Hello, Kate.

How are you?

I'm well, thanks.

How are you?

It is good to see you.

It's nice for skeptics.

What what what's the what's the Kate Thomas story?

Yeah, in a nutshell.

Be quick, interesting, and funny.

Right.

I'm a pharmacist, and I took to TikTok about four months ago because I was amazed by the very sincere group of people on TikTok telling me how I can cleanse myself of parasites or um detoxed from heavy metals or just things that I never really knew I needed.

And and would just say them with such conviction.

Um, and a little bit like Annie, I just got a little bit cranky, and did a debunking video and it gained some traction, and there's nothing like positive information to absolutely.

What was the debunking video on specifically?

It was um our favorite Barbara O'Neill who I she's she's my favorite.

She just gives and gives that woman.

Um she was telling me how I could cure my sore throat by placing a raw onion on my.

Oh, onions!

They're very onions are like the cure for everything, but don't eat them apparently.

Don't eat them.

No, you just place them on the on the place.

And I I just my logical mind just went, but there's so much between where the onion is and the actual sore bit, which is like back here.

And anyway, so I I did a video and gained some traction and yeah.

But but she she has come up with extraordinary claims.

Okay, so if your child happens to be running across the fields and having some fun and accidentally treads on a rusty nail.

Fine.

Don't worry about that.

Tetanus.

Well.

No.

Oh no, you have to worry about tetanus, but you don't go to the doctor.

You put potatoes on their feet.

Oh, yes.

So vegetables are very key.

Vegetables are good, actually, yeah.

Only estuples.

She's got a great, I mean, she's the she's the K and Pepper cures everything.

You know, you're having a heart attack, you've got no pulse, you're not breathing, K and Pepper.

Not not chest compressions.

I hear the emergency physician laughing over here.

Not chest compressions, K and Pepper.

Anyway, so she launched my debunking career.

And I think um because I do follow you now and say nice things and like you.

I am quite busy though, so I can't follow you all the time.

I know.

So don't take a person like that.

I call it stalking.

It's not stalking, Richard.

Um, so I really like this idea because it's one of my um um things that I bang on about a lot on the podcast, which is the notion of wellness.

And that wellness has been co-opted by alternative medicine.

And I liked what you said specifically about time.

If you can just maybe unpack that a bit because it's a very interesting and salient point, I think, about this is one of one of your recent TikToks, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Yes, I think what you're referring to might be I did a uh debunking video on um a naturopath who was um who was claiming to be able to balance your hormones through her services and was, um, to your point, Annie, which was peddling this message to women that their hormones should be balanced throughout their lives and that if your hormones aren't balanced, then you can suffer a range of different um because they love the word balance.

They love the word balance.

Balance is very, very prevalent in the bump, right?

It's ve they love the word hormones.

Balance, balance, energy, energy, frequency, wellness.

You can just generally sort of see how though that kind of language would gain traction with people who I guess are looking for a fix to a really complicated problem.

Correct.

And I think that the the part that the nuance that medicine misses is it's it's the language.

So medicine saying you're really complicated and it's really nuanced, and you know, common things happen commonly, so we're gonna start here and then move forward in this way.

Whereas the wellness industry uses really black and white language that's really captivating to people who perhaps don't want to hear, oh, that sounds really complicated, let's try this.

It's like, no, no, I can fix your problems by managing your gut biome or I mean something like that.

Yeah.

And I think there's so much promise.

There's a lot of promise.

There's a lot of promise.

And if I've got an issue and I don't feel well, and someone's telling me that's because my hormones are unbalanced and they can fix my energy levels and they know what it is.

And I think the other very difficult thing that happens in social media is that the um because we take a lot of our cues socially from America, and America, I mean, they're they're crazy to me.

I mean, in America, basically anybody can call themselves a doctor, insofar as that you can be a doctor of chiropractic or you can be one here, can you?

Can you do it?

Can you be a DC here?

Yep, yeah.

Getting not a good idea.

So they're calling themselves doctors on social media and speaking in this, in this way, um, it really draws people in.

And I and I I guess it doesn't sit well with me that they are they clearly understand that doctor is a very well-respected title.

Well, it's argument from authority.

So as soon as the brain hears the word doctor, then it switches on, which this person knows what they're talking about and they're going to fix me, right?

That's right.

And and the other thing that people don't seem so the debunking video I did on this naturopath, I had I always get a number of comments from either side.

So there's a whole bunch of people saying, Thank goodness you're finally calling these people out.

I'm sick of all this rubbish.

And then there's a whole other bunch of people who pile on and say, health professionals don't well, no, health professionals don't get on social media and rubbish other health professionals.

And I'm there going, Oh, false equivalents.

But also, so you so she's not a health professional.

I'm a health professional.

She's not a health professional.

She just made vague, weird promises about onions.

But people don't.

I think people don't about onions.

People, the general population don't understand that naturopaths aren't registered.

There's no governing body, there's no standard of education, there's no Well, they're also in chemists.

I I can you my local chemist?

There is a naturopath.

There can be, yes.

There's a naturopath waiting to talk to me about my microbiome or something.

No wonder that I mean no wonder people are confused.

Of course they're confused.

And you could, I mean, I guess you could easily also say, I mean, it'd be fine if they stayed in their lane.

But my my my question to you would be, then what lane is that exactly?

So if we've got if they're staying in their lane and their lane is wellness and they're talking to you about lifestyle, well, we've already got registered dietitians who can talk to you about that.

We've got physiotherapists who can talk to you about physical things.

We've got doctors who can talk to you about diagnosing medical issues, we've got pharmacists who can do it.

So what lane is that?

What lane are you in if you're a naturalist?

That's the certainty lane.

So don't be on that lane.

They're in the certainty lane.

You make a good point because they're all over TikTok.

And they're all so Certain.

Certain.

And medicine, you go to a doctor and you say, I don't feel well.

And so they they will then look at you and go, Well, at this point, I don't know what's wrong with you, but I'm going to run some tests.

I'm going to run some tests, and maybe the tests come back, and they're still not sure.

So you're left in this sort of uncertain place, which is discomforting.

It is.

You go to a naturopath or some person, I don't know, whatever they do, fix your energy or something with some machine, and they go, Oh, I know what's wrong with you.

You've got an imbalance.

A kinesiologist.

An applied kinesiologist.

An applied kinesiologist.

It's different, Kate, get with the program.

Oh my god, what's wrong with you?

Call yourself a professional.

Um so then I walk into the applied kinesiologist or the whatever, and they go, and they're nice, and they're probably warm, and they're going to spend time with me.

Yeah.

And they're going to make a promise, and they're certain.

And the human brain, it loves certainty.

And it also loves people love it, they love connection.

They also love time spent because nobody loves a topic more than talking about themselves.

They love it.

We all love it.

The poor old GPs are trying to fit all of this.

No, because I'm I've got the microphone and I'm talking about myself.

But GPs are trying to fit all of this into a 15-minute Medicare rebated appointment.

Whereas your naturopath can spend hours and hours with Hours.

Hours with under cost.

Yeah.

At a cost.

And the no gluten and the supplements and the no dairy.

Supplements that the the I think the naturopath you were referring to earlier, and forgive me if I face this way because I'm uh trying to project into this one.

Uh there's a naturopath online who gives this advice, and she's sitting there in her office and behind her books.

Uh no, bottles.

Bottles.

So bottles.

Endless bottles of who knows what, eye of newton, toad of frog, and what is whatever it is.

And you made the great point on your uh TikTok, but they not only can tell you what's wrong with you, but they can prescribe on the spot and sell you the fish.

Yeah, they can sell you the fish.

Which is appealing.

Right?

If you don't feel well.

Well, is it though?

So we we've spent a really, really long time in this country separating the fact that doctors can prescribe something but can't get any kickback from any kind of treatment that they're prescribing.

That's right.

However, however, but if if for somebody who is ill who is not exposed to any of the sort of debunking, you walk in and they say to you you're gonna feel better.

And of course it's all any health is scary.

Yeah, and people I think are genuinely trying to do the that people are trying to do the best for themselves.

People are trying to do their best, they're just vulnerable.

Very vulnerable.

And then are to my mind being taken advantage of.

Well, they are.

So have you had uh apart from the comments, and I've seen those comments uh about when you were talking about the naturopath, have you had much um negative uh blowback?

So I would say overwhelmingly people are very positive to me.

And I wonder if it's because you tend to engage with things that um confirm what you like and what you know, and you find your own people on the internet.

So I wonder if it's people people see me now and they go, Oh, that's right, I don't agree with her.

I I don't even I'm not I'm not bothered to it.

So she's in the algorithm bubble.

Is that what is that possible?

Is that what that is?

I don't know.

Possibly.

Because I would I would say mostly either that or I'm just not aware enough to notice all these negative comments.

But um I would say overwhelmingly people have been very positive towards the.

Well, there's that's nothing to be ashamed about, but you certainly know when you've hit a nerve.

Yeah, well and I s and I hit a nerve with that um with the one.

I'm blaming you, Richard.

You set me up for that.

Thanks a lot.

Setting her up.

I set her up.

I did.

I I I I forwarded to Kate this naturopath on TikTok and let the release the crack.

You didn't even he didn't even say anything.

He just dropped it like like a Have a look at this.

That's what I mean.

I'm just gonna leave this here.

That's it.

I think the the thing that we take away from it is there's still so much work.

There's a lot of work that we in this space have to do because the cut it's really hard to get cut through.

I have had a number of people though say, um, especially on the Barbara O'Neill videos.

Just maybe then just explain to all the listeners who Barbara O'Neill is.

So Barbara O'Neill is an Australian from the 70s.

She's been at this.

She looks like she's from the 40s.

She is.

And she um I think she started a nursing degree but didn't finish it.

So she actually has no qualifications whatsoever, but has been prolific in this herbal wellness space to the point where the HCC have put a ban on her speaking about anything to do with healthcare in this country, which is why she now practices overseas, it appears more from Romania.

So how come we get all the how come we get all the TikToks and everything from her then if she's banned?

Because the internet is global.

Global, yeah.

Now she also won this year's Ben Spoon Award, Barbara O'Neill.

Bless Barbara.

Bless Barbara.

That's beautiful.

But I mean when you I mean Yay Barbara.

But when we're talking about this sort of reach, I I'm just using TikTok as the prime example.

Because it's, you know, a lot of people are now on TikTok until they're not, until the next best thing comes along.

But if unfortunately, I I've started to comment on on things that I think are a bit dodgy.

So what's my TikTok feed full of things that I find dodgy?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a I I just we there's a lot of work to do.

There is, but we have to keep doing it.

Yeah.

And I hope you get your own podcast up because your voice is very important.

Oh, thanks.

I I don't.

She's our latest reporter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right.

Get lost, Tate.

Oh, thanks for having me.

That's our pleasure.

It's our absolute pleasure.

All right.

Well, for the for for right now, ladies and gentlemen.

It is now time to introduce our next guest for the evening.

It is Skeptic and Emergency Physician Sue Durant.

Yay!

For those of you listening, this is quite a feat to get up to the stage and I've um just done some contortions to follow my way to the mic.

Well done.

And you've got a very fetching Christmas hat on.

I have a Christmas hat that works really well on podcasts.

Now, Kate, uh, if you want to chip in and chime in, you can direct your comments into the blue microphone over there.

That'll be great.

Hello, Sue.

Hello, Richard.

It's nice to have you.

Hi, Annie.

Hello, Sue.

And in fact, you and I, Annie, were uh going to chat.

We sort of ran out of time at the top of the show about Mind Body Wallet.

Yes, I have been have made the odd appearance there.

So the my um what Richard is disparagingly referring to as the Mind Body Wallet Festival is the Mind Body Spirit Festival, um, which I was dragged along to um by Richard and and um Kate recently, and it was d devastatingly tiring, and I had to be scraped up off the floor after about 20 minutes from the shop.

But we we scraped you off the floor and you kept going.

I did.

I'm a heroic.

Yes.

I'm absolutely heroic.

But apparently Sue ghosts them a lot.

I've only been twice.

Can you explain what they are?

A Mind Body Spirit Festival?

They're basically trade shows for woo-woo.

And what makes them entertaining for me is that there is a mixture of um pseudoscientific products and pseudo healthcare and pseudo-psychics, but there's also an interesting amount of um art and craft and clothing, which always keeps me interested.

Well, we took Kate along with us to the last one, and and she was given the that's very attractive.

She's wearing a t-shirt that says heavily meditated.

Anyway, I'll leave you with that.

You should be so um Medicated.

It's a joke.

I know it's a oh thanks, Richard.

I can't work under these conditions.

No, you don't, you shouldn't have to.

Um should I tell the adventure that we had?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I do, but I just want to, before you do that, if I can just um revisit the moment where Kate was told with great confidence and certainty that she had no stem cells.

And that was very problematic.

She's too sad to talk now, look at that.

Yeah, just I couldn't believe it.

He looked at me and he looked at me and said, I can tell you've got no stem cells.

Yeah, you could tell as soon as I met you, I knew that.

It's a bit rude.

It's just I thought you just read it on the front of a t-shirt.

And and but there uh fortunately there was something that he could sell you that would ameliorate the lack of stem cell issue.

There was a there was a patch.

Wasn't that a coincidence that he could both diagnose and sell the patch?

And so quickly.

And so quickly, yes.

So quickly.

And so quickly.

So sorry, Sue, I've interrupted with my own.

Well, there was an adventure on um the day that I attended the festival.

A young woman who was touring the festival with her mother collapsed to the ground.

In the in front of all the cells.

No stem cells or no stem cells.

In front of all the alternative healers.

Is that true?

Who do you think they called for?

Okay.

Is that actually they actually went running to look for a doctor?

Yeah.

Well, so so uh I was uh with Sue and our friend Tim Ferguson, and we were looking around.

Uh Sue went off uh to look at a uh a magic wand, or I don't know what you're looking at, and I was there chatting to somebody, and suddenly out of the corner of my eye, there was a commotion.

I went over, and this poor young lady was on the ground, sort of not knowing where she was, and people were worried.

And I said to somebody, Would you like me to get a doctor?

Or a homeopath.

And they said to me, Yes, yes, and I ran and Sue, I dragged, come back, and I said the irony is in a room full of homeopaths, Reiki healers, mystics, aura manipulators, they needed patches patches.

They needed a doctor.

They needed a doctor.

Yeah.

And do you think that irony actually was lost on them?

I don't think it landed.

Yeah.

It um it's only a couple of us who found it amusing.

What did you have to do for her?

Reassure her and help her to get up without people making too much fuss.

Right.

Yeah.

What she was uh he she was.

I think she ate a crystal or something, my penny.

I think she her frequencies were unbalanced.

Yeah, I thought that.

Yeah.

That will do it every time.

Yeah, every time if you're not.

That's why you've got no stem cells.

Your frequencies are unbalanced.

Yeah, there's a patch for that.

It's okay, relax.

Now let's uh quickly, there's a talking point that I I put in the running order here, which was really interesting.

There was a news item the other day, uh, and I I I assume you would have seen that one.

About uh no women aged under 25 were diagnosed with cervical cancer in Australia in 2021.

Which means the Gardasil vaccine is spectacularly successful.

Uh, but there are still people out there claiming it it is uh an agent of evil, it is killing people.

But look at the results.

Yeah, it's a style of circular.

And this is an area of real interest to me because it was originally the anti-vax organization, the AVN, that got me interested in countering anti-vax information and got me into this community area.

So just to explain, the AVN um is the um misnamed.

Australian Vaccination Network.

Now they call themselves the Australian Vaccination Risks Network for a while.

They they really hated us, the Australian skeptics, so they called themselves the Australian Vaccination Skeptics Network for a while.

Whoa.

Whoa.

Come on, what's it?

And what they do is they they promulgate these um very serious anti-vax messages, do they not?

As soon as this this came up on the media about the eradication of cervical cancer, somebody just put lies.

Uh lies, yeah.

Well, it it's interesting that because that was my first entry into this world, I've kept a close eye on anti-vaccination culture all around the world for quite a few years now.

And Gardasil was a very interesting situation in that it was about young women and promiscuity.

And so there was this whole moral outrage that surrounded the vaccine.

And I don't know how many people have seen the YouTubes of very weird reactions in young American women who started to walk backwards or shake one arm, or there were very bizarre psychologically mediated responses in a lot of young women.

Walking backwards.

That was a famous example, yes.

Until the person was found at the shopping centre actually walking back, walking forwards.

Ordering a latte.

It's like the people who claim that they could live on only air being caught coming out of McDonald's.

That's right.

Exactly.

So one of the other great things about HPV vaccine is it's an Aussie vaccine.

It was our own um scientist who developed it.

And Australian teenagers are way too savvy to go fainting and walking backwards.

In fact, most Australian teenagers have taken HPV vaccine without turning a hair.

What about the boys?

Well, it obviously the boys are the vector of transmission.

So um Australia decided fairly early on that all teenagers now, including boys, are vaccinated.

Great idea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well the proof is in the results.

That's right.

Absolutely, yeah.

So that's it is a real achievement.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And it's interesting that of course it's going to be the right, you know, the right of politics that is going to resist these things because what they want is virginal pure girls, right?

And that's why the moral outrage was particularly strong in the States, because they've got that conservative religious culture.

Yeah, we have Australians being so much more pragmatic.

Yeah.

We have a little of it, but I don't think it's as exaggerated.

Now the other the other point, and uh Kate, please ch chime in on this one too, is just for our audience, an understanding.

We hear this all the time from the Alt Med practitioners, especially the naturopaths.

They say they are holistic uh healers.

They look at the whole body, not just the symptoms.

And I know you've had a uh TikTok on this the other day, I think.

Ah, I did a TikTok on it because I was really just saying that I think that GPs were the pioneers of holistic care, really.

They're the ones that know your pet's name and your allergies and your blood pressure and your you know, they they really are looking at the whole person, and I'm just not sure how that messaging hasn't stuck there, but has been absolutely co-opted by this wellness space.

And the other point that really occurred to me the other day is that I've heard so many times, well uh Western medicine, they call it, it's not Western, it's science-based medicine, is only really good at um surgical conditions and acute emergencies.

And my response to that is if all the alternatives are so good, why are they so hopeless at surgical procedures and emergencies?

Yes, it's so.

How can you have a system of medicine that can't actually cope with the most life-threatening things?

Yeah, yeah.

It's also wrapped up, isn't it, in the appeal to nature bias.

Yeah, the the word itself, you know, where natural, natural naturopath, natural path, you know, the notion that just onions, as long as you don't eat them, can cure things.

It's like, you know, things out of the ground.

It's all this very natural, um except weirdly, um, which is not natural, but they all want to seem to take horse horse paste.

Yes.

Right?

The the ivermectin thing really confused me.

Like, what's with it?

It's like they're still talking about the fact that ivermectin, which is it's to it's for horses, isn't it?

Horse de worm.

It's a human drug, but it's an anti-helmet or worm medication or severe scabies.

But that's not natural.

It's not it's not natural.

So how come it got a special?

It's a pharma product.

Yeah.

Well, I I think it so I don't know.

So you you may you may have an opinion on this, but I think what happened was you're so desperate when you get a cancer diagnosis, right?

You're you're so desperate.

And then there have been these anecdotes of people trying different things and self-umoting their healing journey, and people have just latched onto it.

And so And then it spread, do you think, through the community, the Ivan?

And then COVID.

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

I think really heightened the um the skepticism of um Western medicine and because that was like a crisis in real time, wasn't it?

That was the world dealing with a crisis in real time.

And and then Ivermectin and and it just really came to the fore.

And now it's really popular, it seems.

Really popular.

Yeah.

Still, it is still really popular.

Every cooker post, someone is recommending in the comments that the person wraps their feet seriously in onions and has ivermectin for everything.

Yeah, for essentially any condition.

For absolutely conditions.

I also see it as part of the rebellion against big pharma and the man, which is ironic because it is big a big pharma product.

What was it, Kate?

The the the uh big wellness is far more lucrative than way.

Well, I think I I I think I said last time that it was big big wellness has has got the the earning capacity of big pharma and the GDP of Japan.

Wow.

That's how that's how much bigger it is than without the RD of big pharma.

Without the R D.

And that's the other thing.

The appeal to nature bias then masks the the reality that a lot of these untested vitamins and supplements that can actually be quite dangerous, yes?

Can be quite dangerous.

I mean the the the TGA has just last week put a uh a warning on vitamin B6.

Yep.

Um and but I think also people fail to I mean, people are always saying that Big Pharma make so much money because, I don't know, whatever tablets cost zero cents to make, but they sell them at large profits.

And of course that's that's partly true, but the first tablet cost them hundreds and millions and millions and millions of dollars.

I mean, the second tablet might have cost them 20 cents.

That is such a good frame-up.

The first tablet, for all the research and all the work, cost them millions.

Millions millions.

Such a fantastic I like that frame-up.

And by the time they get to be using that, when they get to the successful one, they've already tested 20 others that didn't make it to market because they didn't work.

Yep.

All right.

Well, for the for the moment, for this section of the show, thank you, Sue.

You're right.

Thank you, Sue.

Yay.

Is everybody ready?

Welcome back to the Occidental Hotel for part two of the live recording of the Why Smart Women Zone.

Woo!

Now it is time to introduce our third guest for tonight.

It is the president of Australian Skeptics, Jessica Singer.

Woo!

Jessica!

Tim Mendem.

Tim Mendem, heckling in the audience.

Good Lord.

You'll get yours, mate.

You just will.

We will.

Hello.

Thank you, Lara.

Thank you, Lara.

Hello, Jessica.

Hello, Jessica.

Richard, and hello Annie.

Hello, it's exciting.

It's exciting.

It's lovely to be here.

Whose hat is that, by the way?

Oh, yeah.

Put it.

Kate.

Put your hat.

Kate took a Santa hat off.

It's illegal.

It's close to Christmas.

Good lord.

Do go on.

Sorry to Kate.

Kate really threw us all by the Santa hat issue, but we're over that now.

Jessica, the president of Australian Skeptics for four or five years.

I can't remember.

I'd like to know how you got that position.

Was there greasing of palms or oh just just just said no?

Look, just just absolute corruption.

Yeah, good.

Totally.

That's good.

Absolutely.

And I have said Richard has been president twice.

Have you, Richard?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Good lord.

He he uh he greased a few palms.

Yeah, yeah, clearly.

Clearly.

But it's it's it's uh an interesting job to be the president.

Uh there's a lot of like any committee, you have a lot of committee things to deal with and to think about.

Are people annoying on the committee?

Because I hate committees because of that.

Tim, oh yeah, did you want to say that?

Tim's raising his hand.

Tim's volunteering for the chief annoyance officer.

He's the annoyance officer in the committee.

He annoys this all the time.

That's right.

I think yeah.

Our committee's pretty good.

Pretty good.

Pretty good, really.

Pretty good.

Um, I think uh partly because it's um by invitation only.

And before getting invited to join, people have to have to prove themselves.

Um because it's it's a committee can be really ruined by conflict and and eccentricity.

So so we don't mind.

I think agendas, I think unspoken agendas are mainly what ruin collaborative enterprise, don't you think?

Yes, yes.

And and uh not forgetting uh the legalities of it, we are an incorporated association, we have a constitution.

Um people have to really put their agendas and their egos aside and think about what is best for the organization.

Uh, because at law, when you join a committee, uh there is a contract between every committee and the organization, and you have certain um duties to fulfill.

And there are legal requirements you have to have as a uh a body doing things, especially when you have balances and bank accounts and this and that.

So there's a lot more to it.

So I wonder if this sort of collegial atmosphere that you seem to have, that you know, because honestly, I I w I've spent a lot of time working in the corporate sector and trying to help people have more functional teams, and it's very, very difficult.

Oh yeah, right, right, right.

I know, because people are people.

But I wonder if perhaps your purpose, the sense that you're very purposeful, has perhaps ameliorated some of that conflict.

I don't know, it's interesting.

I think so, because it's not it's not a job, it's not a an employment situation in a company.

Um, people are there because they um they're they believe in what we do.

So that people are self-selecting.

And what do you do?

What do the what do the Australian skeptics do?

Barbecues.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've been to one recently.

You have?

Yeah, yeah.

It was like drinking, yeah.

Getting thrown out of mind body wallet.

Thank you, Ian.

You're here.

Yes.

Yes.

Escorted, escorted out of the venue by security.

Simply for simply for asking questions.

Questions.

Simply for doing.

I'm not allowed to question things at mind body wallet.

No.

Kate, next year you and I can aim to be thrown out, huh?

All right.

Game one.

What about me?

Well, come on, I'm getting left out of the throwing out experience.

You were in a puddle.

Because you're in the I can't do it again.

Yeah.

I can't do it again.

I'm sorry.

But back to what the Australian do.

Australian skeptics.

So we, as I think Richard said earlier, we uh investigate uh pseudoscientific and paranormal claims from an evidence-based scientific perspective.

Unpack that.

What does that mean for people that have maybe never had any experience with the sceptical organization?

Oh, I I like I like Tim Mendham's example.

If somebody says, I can fly, we say, show me.

Show me.

Prove it.

Prove it.

So I'm a psychic, I know what's going to happen in your future, right?

For instance.

Well, that's pretty testable.

Because I have a hopefully have a future.

So if you want to write down your predictions, we can see whether they come whether they come true.

Or you have better than uh better than probability.

But we're also there as a general committee to chat to the general public and the media.

The media come to us every now and then for comment.

About what?

Well, anything from the latest psychic to the latest UFO fad flap, sometimes about alternative medicine.

And it's good to know that there is a at least people of our way of thinking, scientific, rational people who are there ready to offer an opinion.

And not just, oh, I think this is the case, an opinion based on lots of research and sound science.

Although you do, I mean, w we do have to be fairly tactical about it.

I remember um what, 10, 15 years ago, um when the uh AVN was at its height.

So just for just to remind everyone that's listening, the AVN is the Australian vaccination network.

Misnamed, they were actually the anti-vaxxers.

Yes.

But um it was a very considered decision because also in the media at that time, uh there was this focus on oh, the media, we need to get balance, balance, balance in all our stories.

So if they had an anti va if they had an anti-vaxxer on, they would invite us on to provide balance.

And at at the time we made the decision, no, we are not going to go on and give these people credit and credibility by um debating them because they'd get five minutes, we'd get 30 seconds.

F false equivalent, false equivalence is just the most damaging principle, is it not?

Yeah, and slowly but surely the the message got through to the media not to give these people airtime.

And a c a couple of journalists were Sky News, right?

Oh, yeah.

So I mean a couple of journals were really helpful.

I think Steve Canaan.

Yes, very he's awesome, Steve Canaan.

Yeah, he's awesome.

Yeah.

So so yes, we um we do provide media commentary, um, but uh in a very considered way.

Yeah.

And of course, the the the thing about a considered response in terms of that false equivalence, it's often not as interesting as some sort of febrile narrative, right?

That just with full of promise and magic and I don't know, patches.

Absolutely.

I mean it's it's it's it's dead boring being being scientific and commonsensical.

And is that part of the problem, Jessica?

Possibly.

I mean, I think it's fun, but then hey, I'm you're a lawyer.

I'm a lawyer.

That's right.

That's that's why my my partner, who many of you good old hatters, um you'll remember.

Lovely partner um lovely, lovely chat.

My partner and I, we got involved in skepticism uh partly because it had nothing to do with law.

Is that right?

Is that partially what motivated you?

It was it was something different for both of us.

And um uh Martin Heard um, this was back in the early 90s and because he was very present and very a very big part of the committee.

Oh, Teddy, he was he was um He was also president.

He he he actually occupied every single office on the committee at one stage.

He started out as secretary, then he was president, and then he moved over to treasurers.

So he was um yeah, he was a a mainstay of the organization for for many years and uh a great uh sounding board.

Sounding board.

Yeah.

And what do you think as you sort of look into the future, what what do you think are the really important things that the sceptics have to start to get a handle on, grapple with, encounter?

Oh, look, I think and Is that a horrible question?

Should I should I've given that to it?

Yeah.

It's it's a hard question because I think we are in a stage where we have to really, really look at that.

Um we've had a big, big changes this year with with Tim, our editor and executive officer retiring.

Stop talking about Tim.

Tim was all about Tim.

Tim Tim Times.

He can barely get out the door.

My goodness.

Good Lord.

Go on.

And the the very difficult and and quite sad decision to stop publishing the uh hard copy of the magazine.

I love the magazine, Tim.

Such a great, great resource, great, great product, such a um great example of what we're all about.

And um show them.

It uh it's a it's a podcast, Sue.

No, I I thought that was a fire that that was a fire alarm.

Bless you, Sue.

Somebody's dinner was ready for that.

Sue's got a whole lot of magazines on her lap and she's desperate to show them on the podcast.

Yes, but even even though you can't subscribe to the hard copies anymore, they are all online.

All online listeners.

That's right.

And and we have a uh we have a storage room full of the full of them.

So the future is what?

The future is what?

The future is um firstly putting out more online content because that's where it is.

Yep.

And um the future is keep going.

Yeah, agree.

Yeah, agree.

There what we do is definitely necessary, critical, critical, important, relevant.

Um we are we have the challenges of the fact that information these days, thanks to the internet, is so dispersed into different groups, it's really hard.

I mean, again, when when Martin and I originally joined The Skeptics, it was all mainstream media.

There was no internet.

It was whereas things are so dispersed and fractured into different groups these days.

It it I and I think you know, from what Sue said, particularly in Australia, Australians are pretty pragmatic, and I think they'd consider themselves pretty skeptical naturally, and don't naturally gravitate to Do you think there's a difference between the Australian Australian cultural psych psyche and the Americans?

Oh, definitely.

Definitely.

Thank God for that, right.

Right.

Well, I mean I was I've been I've been thinking about this for the last couple of weeks and been actually quite heartened how on again, mainstream radio, we'll put Sky News aside, um, but mainstream radio, how many science-based and sceptical topics are dealt with?

I mean, to uh Nicole Rogerson um talking about autism and the importance of evidence-based autism.

Are you saying it's not caused by Tylenol?

Jessica, please.

Uh you could be right.

I it's right, I'm definitely right.

If I had uh Michael Marshall on Marsh, yes.

Yes, who's who's from the Merseyside schedule.

Merseyside, yeah.

And he just to go back to your point about um the spreading information in the information uh in the internet age, and he was saying if you went into the pub 25 years ago and said the moon landing didn't happen, vaccines cause autism or whatever, right?

Someone would go, you know, give it a rest, John.

Right?

Donald Trump will be president.

That's right.

That's right.

You know, nobody would believe.

And it would get counted and you'd look like an idiot, you'd stumble out and you know, fall in the snow and die.

I don't know if it's gonna happen to you.

That's probably a little bit dark, but anyway.

Um, but now, of course, you say that.

Sorry, I keep hitting my hands on the table and I do apologize.

Um now what happens is you feel Find your your little group online that goes yet so true about the no moon landing thing.

Right.

So it's different now.

So I think our job is harder.

Our job is harder.

And also it's it's so hard to gauge um how large these little factions are and whether they matter.

I mean, obviously what we've seen in the States is is these relatively small, you know, ideologies take hold of the majority of the country.

It's really scary.

I wouldn't have thought.

RFK.

Who knew?

Who knew?

He knew.

He knew.

Sadly.

Well, thank you, Jessica, for the moment.

Oh thank you.

Thank you.

Oh, thank you.

Indeed.

But there's something else we should mention, I think, just like that.

What is it, Richard?

Something we should mention.

Something we should mention.

It's very exciting.

Yes.

Do do you think you can mention that?

Oh, I would mention that.

I mentioned the thing, right?

It's a thing.

It's a thing.

Wow.

Well, I I mentioned earlier our uh former editor and executive officer Tim.

Oh, him again.

He's frowning at me.

He retired this year.

And uh at our annual convention, which was in Melbourne this year in October, we uh awarded Tim not only life membership for his um wonderful, wonderful work, his fantastic professional job, editing the skeptic, dealing with the skeptics committee, which must have driven him insane.

It did.

It did.

Um yeah, he's he's going going off for a rescue now.

And uh and we also uh honoured his lovely wife, Hilda.

Hilda, everybody.

Hilda.

Hey Hilda, who for so many years did the design and layout of our magazine for free uh and uh made it into something of which we could be truly, truly proud.

A very good, very good design.

Fantastic.

Yeah, excellent.

Fantastic.

So not only did we give Tim life membership, or is it a life sentence?

Um not forgetting he he ran away from home at the age of four to join the skeptics.

That's right, he did.

Very young.

Then he had a short hiatus and came back, and he he's been in his current position for 18 years, is it?

Almost.

Almost 18 years.

But we also, in recognition of Tim's contribution to the skeptical movement, gave him a lifetime achievement.

The rest of the life.

So, because I didn't take this down to Melbourne, but we've actually now organized this trophy for him.

Tim.

Oh, it's one.

Okay, so because it's a podcast and we can't see this.

Please describe it.

Please describe it.

It's an orgon pyramid.

To be inserted.

The being oh, I feel the energy.

I feel better.

See, I can see on the wonderful base there's a little picture on the other side, Tim.

It's you.

Yeah.

And I thought I used to.

Yeah, and I think I think did we put the picture there so that we didn't have to worry about misspelling your name?

So I knew who it was.

So, ladies and gentlemen, uh a warm applaud for Tim Mendham, who did a sterling job.

Thank you, Tim.

Awesome, Tim.

It's enough about you now, Tim.

Off you go.

Bye-bye then.

It's been really great.

Uh when when Barry Williams retired, uh and then shortly thereafter, it wasn't too long, uh some months after uh Tim came along, and he was just the right person at the right time.

Not only was he a a good editor, and I've written a lot for the magazine, but I couldn't have done it without Tim editing what the rubbish I wrote and turning it into something, but he also is that rare fellow in the skeptical movement or the rare person who has the skeptical knowledge of all sorts of topics.

And so when the press ring up and say anything from Bigfoot to UFOs to how does this psychic do it, Tim could answer them on the spot.

And that is a rare thing indeed.

So well done.

I might get up.

You make it up.

We knew you did.

Alright.

Yes, yes.

So you have been listening to the Why Smart Women's Own podcast.

Thank you to our guests and live audience here at Sydney Skeptics in the pub.

You can find out more about this and future events at meetup.com forward slash ost skeptics.

I'm Lara Benham, and for now it is good night from the Occidental Hotel.

Yay!

Beautiful.

So there you go.

That was us.

It was really awesome.

We had a few very nice glasses of wine afterwards, and I had a chicken burger.

It was terrific.

Um, I hope you enjoyed it.

We certainly enjoyed it.

And wherever you are, stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hats on.

See you later.

Bye.