You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones.

From relationships, career choices, finances to faux fur jackets and chaos movies.

Every moment of every day, we're making decisions.

Let's make them good ones.

I'm your host, Annie McCubbin, and as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions.

Not my husband.

I don't make him, but I did go through some shocks to find him.

And I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself.

This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind.

I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording, and you are listening on this day.

Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land.

Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the Why Smart Women Podcast.

Today I am broadcasting from the Northern Beaches in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia.

It is a funny old grey spring day.

This morning I picked our daughter up from the airport, and she had just got back from South Korea.

And she remarked the weather was about the same.

She liked Korea.

Did I tell you that, David?

She quite liked South Korea.

Yes.

She enjoyed it.

It was really cool.

Anyway, that's not what we're talking about today.

So two things have happened to me over the last 24 hours, which were relevant.

And the first one was that I came across yesterday, I was having a lovely time down in DY at the beach.

It was hot yesterday, it was like 30 degrees, it was gorgeous.

And um, I was having a nice coffee with my friend Judy, and I chanced upon the Forest of the Fallen, which is an installation that is put up by the local anti-vaxxers.

And what they do, I've spoken about this before on the podcast.

It's deeply infuriating.

But anyway, they laminate pictures of people that have purported to have died from vaccine injuries.

But upon investigation by people like the Snakey Gherkin, they have discovered that they had not died from vaccine injury.

In fact, sometimes they'd had the vaccine in March and they'd died in December in a car accident, which is not really causative, is it?

And other people were still alive.

So this big sort of lie where what they do is they stick these laminated pictures in the ground on sticks, and then they encourage people to come over and ask them.

And people go, What happened?

And they go, Well, this is what happens if you take the highly dangerous vaccine.

So um I wandered over and took pictures so I could give it to the Snake Gherkin, who's my um my chief debunker.

And I said to them, You shouldn't be doing this.

This is spreading dangerous lies.

And they got very upset with me and started screaming at me that I was a homicidal maniac and a murderer.

Um, anyway, I left them alone.

What what you you're you were expecting them to be grateful for your your your performance feedback?

Yeah, I thought maybe they might like to hear from me.

They might they might take up their little laminated photographs on sticks and and and put them away because because you have emerged from the the DY crowd and told them that they shouldn't be doing it.

That's right.

Okay.

And it didn't happen.

Amazing, isn't it?

Yeah.

Anyway, that happened.

If they knew you like I knew you.

That oh, that's my phone.

That could be one of them now, messaging me going, Annie.

We've changed our mind.

You're you're so right.

God, if only we'd spoken to you before we laminated the pictures of the non-dead people.

Anyway, so that was yesterday.

Some of the some of them, some of them, isn't it?

Are dead.

Are dead, aren't they?

I mean, so some of them, you know.

But it's it's it's they're spuriously um some of them are dead, but that it has spuriously been definitely related to vaccine injury, but there's no evidence for that.

So so so so they're actually misrepresenting the entire reality, even though there are there are kernels of truth, snapshots of truth through all the.

No, there's not snapshots of truth.

There's just some dead people and also some alive people.

Many.

What?

Well, you you know, if they're that if they're dead, you know.

Yeah, but there's the the fa the families have complained.

They've gone, do not use my husband.

My husband's picture in your ridiculous Forest of the Fallen.

He died of a stroke.

It had nothing to do with the body.

Oh, right, that's it.

Okay, so that's a that's a that's a grubby act.

That's that that's definitely distorting the truth.

It's a grubby act.

Yeah, yeah.

Then I get over that.

Right.

I managed to get over that.

You did you didn't read today's Sydney Morning Herald, did you?

Yes, I did.

The Fitzfilza Oh I know it's I know it's got you cross.

Yes, I did in fact read the Sydney Morning Herald.

Now, for some of the younger people who may be listening to this highly informative, interesting podcast Like Harry.

Like Harrison.

Yeah, Harrison.

He has to listen.

David, I haven't in I haven't invited you to to actually contribute yet.

Okay, sorry.

Please be quiet.

Thank you.

Um there was I'm about to invite you though.

Oh.

Okay.

There was a mini-series um back in 1982, 83.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Called The Thornbirds.

The Thornbirds.

I love the Thornbirds.

Oh, well, I mean, uh The Thornbirds was um was that you know, that that that that great sprawling Australian novel.

It was like dynasty set in Australia.

And um, you know, yeah, who wrote it?

Colin McCulloch.

Oh, well done.

Was w was the Thornbirds.

I've had less sleep than you, that's why I'm not really on the board.

And I r I remember the moment the most beautiful woman in the world appeared at the top of the staircase.

Um not Mrs.

Danvers.

No, no.

No, no, that was another book altogether.

No, I I I I I I can remember the moment, you know?

Uh and and and and she literally was the most beautiful woman that I had ever seen on television.

Yeah.

And her name, the actor, was Rachel Ward.

What was the character?

The character?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, she was the she was the femme fatale in the Thornbirds.

She was the um, you know, she was the one that was the the sexy love interest.

Yeah, the Brian Brown character Brian Brown's character fell in love with her.

What?

What about Richard Chamberlain?

Richard Chamberlain.

Richard Chamberlain was the lead in it.

Yes.

Was he a priest?

I've really I'm really foggy on the details.

Yes.

Who fell in love with her?

Wasn't it was it wasn't it Brian Brown?

But what about Richard Chamberlain?

Wasn't he the wasn't that the big love interest?

I look i I was I was very young at the time.

Oh shut up.

Oh my gosh.

So she Yeah.

We we will get together the s details between our three.

Because it's so important.

Well, it is sort of anyway.

So she there was Rachel Ward, and she was called at the time one of the most um beautiful women in the world.

I think one of the top ten.

She was a model, she was astonishingly beautiful.

Let's have a look.

The Thornbird.

See, there's the picture where now David's pulled it up.

So the whole thing was it was this incredibly sort of fabulous, sexy story about the forbidden love between uh Maggie Cleary and the family's priest, father Ralph De Bricasart, played by Richard Chamberlain.

So it's this very, very sexy story, and she was extraordinarily sexy and gorgeous, and that's where she met her current husband.

Anyway, so this morning I open up the Sydney Morning Herald, and there's an interview between Peter Fitzsimon, who I really do admire, and Rachel Ward.

And she's um doing something really positive with cows and poo, cow poo.

She's a farmer now.

She's she's a farmer.

Okay.

And she's doing this, you know, I think probably very helpful for its environment, this way of raising and breeding cattle that is good for the cattle and good for the environment.

All fine so far.

That's tremendous.

She's pretty.

She's been married for 40 years to Brian Brown.

Brian Brown's an Australian actor, we talked like that.

Brian Brown.

Brian Brown.

Brian Brown.

Um, and she's now doing something that's ecologically positive.

Admirable.

All good.

But why are you mad?

I am mad because she has come out today in print and has stated some untruths about vaccine and the link between vaccines and autism.

And I'm furious about it.

Well, didn't it just sort of arise in the in the interview with Fitz?

And she just kind of said, yeah, she had her doubts and, you know, thinks that it should be organized differently because the way that it's being done is.

What do you think?

Why are you using that sort of ameliorating tone?

Well, I'm really annoying because she thinks she's still pretty.

I'm just I'm I'm I'm trying to be even-handed and represent what was actually what what was actually articulated.

All right.

Well, I'll tell you what was articulated.

Hang on a sec.

He asked her if she was anti-vax, and she apparently took a really long considered pause and then said that she thought that the vaccine schedule was um, you know, there was sort of too many vaccines being shoveled into babies in too short a period of time.

And that What's the danger of that?

What's her concern that the danger of it overwhelms her immune system or something that is completely d do you know something about that?

No, I've uh um no, I do know something about that.

Well I is that rubbish?

It's rubbish as it's I I I do know that babies have incredible immune systems when they're born.

Um and does it hurt them having a whole lot of vaccines?

Well, it I think that if you have a properly sort of you know administered um uh schedule of vaccines as as as suggested by the um the medical profession.

Yes.

Then it's a good thing.

Of course it's a good thing.

It stimulates the immune system.

Yeah it's ridiculous.

Anyway, she said something because she's had this background where she mixed with the rich and famous, right?

Yeah.

Right.

So she had met um RFK's son and actually dated him for a bit.

Oh, did she?

Apparently.

Rachel Ward?

Yeah.

What before Brian Brown?

Brian Brown.

Yeah.

But I mean, she's been with Brian for so many years.

This was this wasn't this wasn't a dalliance, was it?

This wasn't a sort of a post-Brian dalliance.

No, no, no, no, no, it's long, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Oh, this was before that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anyway, so then she praised, she said to Fitz how great she thought RFK was.

Right.

And then She must have her reasons.

Um And then she said that she sort of inferred that vaccines caused autism and he and she said, Are you telling me, Fitz, that you don't agree with this?

And Fitz said quite sensibly, I certainly do not.

Don't tell me you do, and she uttered these words.

She said this.

Well, where else is it coming from?

What's wrong with really looking at where it's come from?

Holy moly, how many times do we have to debunk the myth that vaccines cause autism?

It is in the gene.

It's in the gene, it's got absolutely nothing to do with the vaccines.

And then he says, please tell me an anti-vaxxer.

And she said, after a lot, I like the way they write long silence in print, as if the person is giving a really considered answer and just being really sensible and and sort of um, you know, considered.

And she said, I was vaccinated, but I certainly question the whole way it was done.

Do you, Rachel?

I question the necessary, the lockdowns, and all of that.

Do you?

Okay.

And I'm definitely in tune with the people who question it all and still protest against it.

Which says to me, she was in tune with those people yesterday that called me a homicidal maniac and a murderer because I had questioned their fake forest of the fallen laminated pictures.

That is who she's supporting.

And those are the people that are spreading the misinformation, the disinformation.

But someone like Rachel Ward, who's famous and really pretty and married to somebody really famous, her word really, really counts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's a um it's a kind of let them eat cake moment, isn't it?

Yeah.

You know, um Yeah.

Yeah, I like that.

People are unhappy about this, so uh, you know, if they're h if they can't get bread, let them eat cake.

Yeah.

Um it's it's the um it's when someone's got a a a degree of celebrity they are probably reasonably wealthy and reasonably set up.

And I think that we know that one of the unfortunate things that happen when people have it too easily, they start to think that they're entitled for that to continue.

I'm wealthy, I've got lots of money, there's lots of people trying to please me.

So really my life should turn out the way I want it to.

But the funny thing about life, the thun funny thing about nature is that sometimes we we don't lose lose the gen uh we don't win the genetic lottery, and there are forces that are beyond our control.

And unfortunately, if if you know you may be born with uh uh y your your child may be born with a susceptibility for any kind of disease.

Um and uh and I think that that the the wealthy celebrity finds it difficult to understand that sometimes life is just pretty shitty, and they, like the rest of the people on the planet, are subject to that reality, and they don't like it.

So they have to find something causative that they can blame.

And so they go in search for a reason why my life, why my child, is not perfect, and they find one.

And I I tend to think that that's that's kind of at the heart of it.

I mean, you've got your Rachel Ward, we've also got your gentleman.

They don't have an autistic child, Rachel Ward and Brian Brown.

Yeah, but um but they don't like to live in a universe where bad things can happen to to famous celebrities, and so she feels for the people um who feel aggrieved by the fact that their agency has been eroded by a government that wants to keep everybody alive by vaccinating them.

So she feels for them.

I didn't understand that last point.

Can you say that again?

Yeah, sure.

Um okay.

Uh well.

What I'm saying is I think she's caught up in the appeal to nature bullshit.

That's what I think is going on.

I think she's doing some fabulous or or organic farming and patting cows and living on the land, and she's removed herself from the the vagaries and the you know the tinsel environment of Hollywood.

She's removed herself, so she's now close to nature, she's with the cows, and she's on and off a tractor.

Which is wonderfully self-deterministic.

It's self-deterministic and it's close to nature.

Yeah, yeah.

And what happens when we start thinking that nature is providing us with everything?

It's an appeal to nature bias.

Yeah, exactly.

So so don't interfere with nature by putting pesticides into the environment.

That's right.

Or putting vaccines into the bloodstreams of those little babies.

Tiny babies.

Forgetting that.

Forgetting that, um, you know, people used to have, you know, six, seven children because five died of things that we have eradicated.

This debate is not a both sides have a point, right?

This is people like Rachel Ward, celebrities with platforms spreading lies that have literally killed children and are bringing back diseases that we've eliminated.

What's going on with measles?

Oh my voice is so high.

What's going on with measles and hooping cough at the moment?

Do you know?

Well, I do know that we've got measles and hooping cough happening in places where it shouldn't be happening.

Yeah, exactly.

And why is that?

If it was eradicated, what on earth has brought it back?

That's the other thing, is that is that the the pro-nature crowd think that measles are, you know, perfectly benign.

It's just another little virus.

Oh, yeah, nice if you haven't got got the measles to say that it's benign.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I it's it's it's really quite extraordinary that um that measles around the planet is having a um a resurgence?

Look, uh a comeback.

Um you know, like a like a like a like a 1980s rock band.

Yeah, they're coming back.

Um I've got a stat for you.

As of November the twelfth, two thousand and twenty-five, a total of one thousand seven hundred and twenty-three confirmed measle cases were reported in the US.

Now let's remember it was previously eradicated, right?

Yeah.

The measles vaccine compped a lot of bad press.

Um I I know I know that you don't want to go tremendously into the bad work of Andrew Wakefield.

I don't mind.

Okay.

So um uh look, Andrew Wakefield, you know, celebrity anti-vaxxer.

Um, you know Do you reckon he sort of started the whole thing?

Wake Wakefield?

So do you want me to fill in the the the blanks about Andrew Wakefield for perhaps those who don't know?

Yeah.

Okay.

So he's still quoted, right?

Oh, definitely.

And and and and and certainly the damage that Wakefield has done um continues.

So, you know, he he was one that that that that really kicked off the vaccine causes autism um story.

Um the the thing about Andrew Wakefield is he has been you know completely debunked and and um it's clear that his motivation for taking this position was actually commercially driven.

Um he was being paid, he was being personally paid by lawyers who were preparing a lawsuit against the manufacturers of the vaccine.

I did not know that.

Yeah.

Oh my god.

Yeah, so I mean he was paid like about half a million pounds in in today's money.

He was paid by the lawyers who were preparing the the lawsuit against the MMR.

Yeah, that's right.

This vast amount of money.

This is Mum's Rebella, right?

He he he disguised absolutely nothing, didn't tell anybody.

In unethical.

That's right.

And he was being paid by this firm two years before he published uh a paper in the Lancet uh um uh attempting to um to to vilify MMR vaccines.

And he wasn't just working for the lawyers, he had his own business plan.

He'd filed a patent for a rival measles vaccine before he launched his campaign against the MMR.

He was trying to destroy confidence in the existing vaccine so he could sell his own.

Can you say that again?

Because that is really that is really major.

So he was actually developing a vaccine.

A rival vaccine.

He had he had filed a patent for a rival vaccine.

Um and so, yes, he would he he he he wanted the MMR vaccine, completely vilified, destroy the confidence in that so that he could sell his own.

And it gets darker.

It's it's worked as well.

It is actually he's done it, he's done it.

One man, go keep going.

So it gets even worse than that.

Gets darker than that.

Wakefield was involved in a venture to market diagnostic test kits for autistic enterocolitis.

Which is a made-up thing, right?

Well, him, yeah, that's right.

That was that was the condition that he invented.

So you know he invents a condition.

And then here's a diagnostic test that'll prove whether you got it or not.

Oh my god.

And the reports tell us that he predicted he would make more than 43 million a year from these kits.

And one of the companies that he planned to launch was was called Carmel Healthcare.

Oh, that's nice.

Limited.

And that was his wife at the time.

He was married to Carmel.

Oh my god.

Yep.

So he actually named his fraudulent company, right?

After his wife.

After his wife.

And and it and it's really clear that it was just a con.

But you see, this kind of grift didn't end with him.

Yeah.

The modern anti-vaccine movement has professionalized it.

So now we've got.

So this is where we have RFK Jr., that's right, who Rachel Ward has just lionized for being such a great guy because he's come out going, you know, st stop l stop hurting our children.

Stop hurting our children with all these vaccines.

Well, I mean, yeah, RFK chairs an organization called the Children's Health Defence.

Which is ironic, right?

Well, it sounds like a benign children's charity, but it's not.

It's one of the most prolific sources of vaccine misinformation in the world.

And so, okay, what do they do?

Well, they press is this with Joe McColler?

I think this is with Joe McColler.

He he's he's he he he's he's one of the contributors for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They produce these very slick medical, you know, professional-looking content that spreads information that's already been debunked, but it spreads fear.

They file lawsuits against vaccine mandates, they lobby politicians, and importantly, they fundraise, they raise money.

The Children's Health Defense is a multi-million dollar organization.

Wow.

And so he's banging on, right?

RFK bangs on about big pharma profits, right?

Yep.

But at simultaneously at the same time, he's running a hugely profitable anti-vaccine business, right?

Spreading vaccine information.

That's right.

Um, and children's health defense is a multi-million dollar organization.

So, how much money are we talking if it's a multi-million dollar organization?

Okay, look, um Is it just to defend poor little children?

Possibly not.

Well, possibly not.

Um in 2021, they had reported revenues of over seven million dollars, and and RFK himself took a salary of over$350,000 from the organization.

So, you know, pedal anti-vax information and get a big fat salary while you're doing it.

And it would have been only one of his many sources of in of uh of revenue.

So while he's banging on about big pharma profits, he's running a profitable anti-vaccine b business.

He's written books, he's he he he he's delivered countless paid speeches, and he's he's basically built a career on fear.

And the thing is that his own family, right, have repudiated him.

He's an embarrassment.

Yeah, yeah, because I mean that they're not they're not stupid.

They can see what he's doing, and it's not just about the money that he's making, even though that's obscene, that he's making money from this.

It's actually the real-world harm that he does.

All right, so let's let's actually unpack the harm because it's it's really important for anybody that's listening to this podcast to understand that what David and I are talking about here is not theoretical.

These it's it's not just us, you know, having a go at these elites who are making lots of money.

No, it's about the fact that vulnerable people, vulnerable children, vulnerable adults who are at the behest of this false information are dying.

It really matters.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

I mean, look, after after Wakefield's, you know, um uh 15 minutes of fame or his time in the in in the sun when he took the you know took the sledgehammer to to to vaccine policy, MMR vaccination rates fell in the in the UK from ninety-two per cent to as low as seventy-three percent.

Nearly twenty percent.

Yeah, and look, some parts of London it it dropped to fifty per cent, which is below the threshold for herd immunity.

Which means that even the vaccinated children are at risk, right?

That's right.

And and the consequence of that, measles came roaring back.

By by by 2008, um, the UK had its first measles death in 14 years.

And and in the US, which had been you know measles-free, yeah, they're getting they were getting outbreaks again.

Yeah.

But now that RFK is the health secretary.

Can you believe that happened?

Can you believe that you've got a grifter of that magnitude as the health secretary of the United States?

Oh my god.

He's making money, he's making policy that can can help him continue to make money.

Last year, the United States saw a significant measles resurgence.

You know, it it it it was it used to be wiped out, but now there were multiple outbreaks, primarily in communities with low vaccination rates, and we're seeing the same pattern with hooping cough.

So, what's happened with hooping cough?

It was a disaster for small babies, right?

Yeah, absolute disaster.

So we used to vaccine.

Um, in 2024, hooping cough cases in the US surged to levels not seen in over a decade.

Over 32,000 cases were reported, more than six times the number from the previous year.

And of course, it's infants who are particularly vulnerable.

And as we know, hooping cough can be fatal for babies that are too young to be vaccinated.

So this is where the herd immunity thing is a is a is a major thing.

So if you get it, you you it's very, very dangerous.

And the the thing the thing that's got me so riled up today is all these diseases were completely eradicated.

Look, they were eradicated, and it wasn't just because the the vaccines existed, they did have to be administered properly.

And um, I mean, if the story of what happened in in Samoa is just is manifestly tragic.

Um so two babies in Samoa died from an MMR vaccine.

But this w happened because it was incorrectly prepared by the nurses.

They mixed it up with expired anesthetic instead of water, and it was a tragic preventable error.

But of course, the government, you know, worried they suspended the vaccination program for 10 months while they investigated what's not unreasonable.

It is not unreasonable, but the anti-vaccine activists saw an opportunity, and what they did was they flooded Samoan social media with misinformation, exploiting the tragedy to spread fear, um, and that's where it connects to our current celebrities.

One of the influencers who was active in Samoa's anti-vaccine community promoted content from the Children's Health Defense RFK's organization.

The vaccine rate collapsed from 72% to just above 30%.

And then when a traveller brought measles to the island, in a population of only about 200,000 people, there were over 5,700 cases and 83 people died.

Most of them influence young children.

Um, the Samoan government realized the mistake, they declared a state of emergency, they went from door to door mandating vaccination, but at that stage the damage was done.

So let's just really, you know, underline that.

Now they're you know, in charge of the health ministry in America, and this lie is now spread by celebrities like Rachel Ward, who think that because they have a um a platform, they have a right to comment on matters that should belong in the scientific community.

Wow.

You know, when Rachel Ward or any other celebrity talks about doing their own research or following the money, this is where it leads.

Dead children.

Honestly, this is where it leads.

I mean, one of the um one of the one of the arguments that you do hear from smart, well meaning parents is they'll say, Look, I'm not anti vaxx, but I just think that the schedule's too aggressive.

You know, too many vaccines too soon.

You know, can can we space them out?

You know?

Which of course, you know, if you think about that and you you know, you're sitting around and you're you're having a bit of a I don't know, a Saturday night margarita with uh the other parents of your five months, you know, perhaps you're in a a mother's group, right?

Having a bit of a drink.

Having having having margaritas with the mother's group.

Yeah, sure.

Well I did.

Okay, yeah.

I was bottle feeding at that point.

Um, you know, and you're having a little chat about it and everyone's sort of in this tacit agreement that it's all a bit much, right?

Your baby's only twelve twelve weeks old or sixteen weeks old.

Why don't we spread them out?

I mean it sounds reasonable, does it not?

Yeah, look, it it it it sounds reasonable to somebody who's not an epidemiologist, you know, who's not a doctor, who doesn't understand the baby's immune system and when they need to be uh and when they need to be vaccinated.

Yeah.

It sounds fair enough.

Yep.

And but all it takes is that one decision to delay something, and then what have you got?

You've got measles, or have you got hooping cough?

Oh, so actually what you're saying is um in people's efforts to protect their children, to spread the vaccines out so they don't overwhelm the child.

We'll talk about the notion of overwhelming the child's immune system in a minute.

I know I mentioned it before, but we can unpack that a bit more.

They're actually endangering their children because a sneaky virus can get in, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Children's immune systems are actually extraordinarily powerful from the moment of birth.

Babies are exposed to thousands of bacteria, viruses, and other antigens every single day, you know, when they put their hands in their mouths, when they put their toys in their mouths, when they breathe, when they read.

They're they're encountering far more immune challenges than any individual vaccine presents.

So you're saying a baby just going through the course of their day, sticking their hands in their mouths, or, I don't know, breathe they might go out on the street and they could breathe in a virus or something.

Oh, of course, you know, they're they're everywhere all the time.

And the natural immune system can handle those things, and so a vaccine, small dose of the of the thing that we're wanting to protect ourselves again, it doesn't overwhelm.

It cannot overwhelm.

It's uh it's a it's a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the immune system works.

So that I mean, the immunological components of the entire vaccine schedule, say all the vaccines combined, right?

If you think about all of them, contain about 200 antigens total.

Right.

Which, you know, sounds like a lot you're a mum, you're a mum or you're a dad and you want to protect your baby's little immune system.

Poor little baby.

Until you realise that a single natural occur naturally occurring infection can expose a child to thousands of antigens.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I can remember when we when we were young parents, I can remember having the same thoughts, can you, that it was all a bit much.

It's all a bit I distinctly remember.

Yes.

Um and weren't and weren't we qualified to make the decision about it.

And I also remember when I was in hospital and I'd had Lily, um they came in to give me the vitamin K injection, and I said, Oh, do I need that?

And and the obstetrician said, Don't be ridiculous, just have it.

And I went, they're right.

Yeah.

So I mean it's I guess that's I don't know, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of how the immune systems work, right?

Yeah, the the vaccine schedule has been designed by experts.

It's been tested, you know, they've they've refined it so that we protect children when they are most vulnerable.

I mean, you know, uh uh m meas measles doesn't wait until it's convenient.

You know, whooping cough doesn't care that, you know.

Hooping.

Whooping?

Hooping.

Hooping cough doesn't care how it's pronounced.

Um terrible.

Yeah, well you know, the the these things don't uh don't care.

Um and so you know, why why why would you be claiming expertise in an area that is so complicated and so out of your control, um, leaving your children vulnerable to to during the exact period when the diseases are most dangerous?

Okay.

Infants can't get the MMR vaccine until they're 12 months old.

And so until then MMR, remember, is measles, mumps, rebella.

Rebella, yeah.

So what we're relying on is herd immunity, correct?

Yep, yep.

And and when parents skip or delay vaccines, they're not just risking their own children, they're putting babies too young to be vaccinated at risk.

And we're seeing the consequences right now in America.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, hooping cough, patussis, as we've already said, it's very, very dangerous.

Yep.

Um well, 2024 the US saw 32,000 cases of hooping cough.

That's a 557% increase from the year before.

That is nuts.

That is a nuts stat.

And that's because parents are delaying vaccine vaccines.

Oh my god.

Because vaccination rates have dropped in communities influenced by anti-vaccine rhetoric.

Uh, you know, the the diseases are as dangerous as they ever were.

Uh but what has changed in these areas is the protection.

And and you know, there's the the notion of personal choice, right?

Yeah, I mean it's not really personal choice.

It it's not personal choice when your choice affects other people's children.

And you know, this was seen vividly in the US when with uh they had uh they had a measles outbreak at Disneyland.

Oh right, 2015, yeah.

Yeah.

One one unvaccinated person spread it to one hundred and forty-seven people across eight states.

And the outbreak the outbreak traced directly to pockets of vaccine refusal.

Yeah.

And we're seeing it again now, 2024, measles outbreaks in multiple states, in Oregon, Washington, Pennsylvania, Virginia.

In every case, the index patient, the first patient, was unvaccinated.

And the spread occurred in communities with lower than average vaccination rates.

Okay, just to I don't know, maybe they're just poor families and they haven't got access to healthcare.

Well, no, no, no.

This was concentrated actually in wealthy, educated communities.

You know.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Where we're where parents can afford to hire a vaccine-friendly pediatrician who will help them create an alternative schedule.

You know, places where you know places where some private schools had vaccination rates lower than South Sudan.

Oh, South Sudan Sudan's a disastrous.

Let's not go there.

It's awful.

So, alright.

Um, look, I think we've made our point, have we not?

Well, that you're right to be cross with Rachel Ward this morning.

I'm really cranky about it.

Because there's the, you know, the Looney Tunes that are wandering around um DY with their laminated pictures, right?

And, you know, their their influence is probably not that great.

But someone like Rachel Ward, who takes a considered sounding pause when asked a question by someone who has the credibility of Peter Fitzsimon, and then you've got a really big problem.

And our voices, the voices of reason, and our voices that we spend so much time trying to debunk this disinformation.

And you just need Rachel Ward up there on her special cow farm blathering on about autism, and we're back to where we started.

It's so frustrating.

Yep.

And and and I think what's what's um what's what's galling is that they kind of present themselves as a bit kind of heroic.

You know, I'm I'm heroic because I'm I'm prepared to, you know, take on Big Pharma and and be brave, but the fact is they're not being brave.

They're they're they're wealthy enough to insulate themselves from the consequences of their beliefs.

That's right.

You know, RFK Jr.'s own children were vaccinated by his ex-wife's admission.

He benefited from the protection vaccines gave to his family while building a career, telling other parents not to vaccinate, you know, the children in Samoa, babies dying of whooping cough in the United States.

Whooping cough.

Yeah.

You know, families in the measles outbreaks.

You know, these are the people who actually bear the costs, while the RFKs and the Andrew Wakefields and, you know, and perhaps the Rachel Wards benefit from their um, you know, their brave and counterculture stance.

Appeal to nature.

Nature will take care of you, except it won't.

Um, well, I'm very um yeah, look, I think, you know, all I can say is that if any of our listeners have, you know, tiny children and they're thinking about spacing out vaccines or skipping something, you're not being cautious.

You're gambling with your child's health based on the advice of clueless celebrities who have no medical training and they are following a script written by a fraud.

The science is 100% unambiguous.

The schedule is safe, these diseases are deadly dangerous, and they are roaring back.

Yeah, measles is one of the most contagious viruses known to humanity.

If one person with measles walks into a room with unvaccinated people, 90% of them will get sick.

It can cause brain damage, it can cause death.

We had it eliminated in the United States, uh, in Australia, eliminated, and now it's back because of vaccine hesitancy.

Don't.

Don't Google, don't listen to any of the influences, don't listen to anybody on Instagram, don't listen to Rachel Ward with her interesting sounding pause.

Don't listen to Jay to RFK Jr.

Talk to your family's pediatrician because they are steeped in knowledge and they have actually trained in medicine and some immunology.

Yeah, the pediatrician just wants what you want, a healthy child.

They're not part of a conspiracy, they're trying to protect your family from diseases that kill.

Yeah, and you know, I think we get into this thing about you know, mothers, mothers are just really instinctive, and mothers always know what's best for their children.

No, they don't.

You're a mother, not a doctor.

If you want advice on your child's health, go to someone who's medically trained, and yes, unless you yourself are medically trained, in which case you may give yourself advice.

So you're difficult to argue when you're in this particular mood.

What about when someone just says I'm asking questions?

You know, like I'm just a con concerned parent.

You know, why can't we have a conversation about this?

You know, why why why can't we have a conversation?

Oh, I don't know.

Why can't you what do you mean?

Like what what are they what what?

It's a rhetorical tactic, isn't it?

Why can't we have a conversation?

It's it's rhetorical tact, it's a rhetorical tactic.

You know, you you can package any sort of wacky um conspiracy theory as an innocent inquiry to avoid accountability.

Like well, well, uh, you know, I'm not saying vaccines cause autism.

I'm just asking, you know, why has autism increased as we've added more vaccines?

Sort of sounds fair, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's causation and correlation, isn't it?

It's also not true.

Vaccine autism has not increased.

It's not true.

It's just it's just that suddenly it used to be, you know, strange Uncle Cyril that was, you know, spent 16 hours a day in his lab, and we can now go, well, strange Uncle Cyril was actually a genius and he was on the autistic spectrum.

We just can identify it better now.

Yeah.

So so so so the problem is when people frame themselves as a vaccine safety accident uh uh a vaccine safety advocate, like the vaccination station, isn't it?

And not an anti-vaxxer.

That's that's that's the vaccination station is provax.

Yeah, I oh the vaccination station is provax.

100%.

What what what is it the vaccination network that I know it's the uh it's the vaccination network.

Okay, yeah, okay.

So the vaccination network frame themselves as vaccine safety advocates.

Vestigans just asking questions.

Yeah.

Um I just want them to be a safer, but then they oppose every vaccine, they spread information about vaccine ingredients, and they promote this completely debunked autism link.

And also they always I'm not going to mention the woman that runs that network because she's litigious, but they're all constantly talking about how well they are and how well their children are, these anti-vaxxers, and as far as I can see, they're always sick.

Anyway.

How do you know they're sick?

Because you can hear it when they talk.

They've got they sound like that because they probably got COVID while saying it's from the Keb trails.

Yeah, okay.

So their goal isn't about the truth, it's about avoiding the truth while appearing to be reasonable.

Um and like all of them, they they're basically promoting dangerous disprovement disproven treatments.

Um and um and look, you know, if you were to confront confront Rachel Ward, you know, are you an anti-vaxxer?

Long pause, she would say something like long, interesting pause, not anti-vaxx.

I just think parents should have more information.

But the information she's spreading is misinformation.

That's right.

So I think we've had we I think we've really hammered this point home for you today.

Do you agree, David?

I think we have.

Anything else you want to say before we wrap it up?

I'm still pretty cranky.

Well well, I I mean I think I think the thing that we can learn from this one that goes beyond the the specifics of just this particular topic, vaccinations and um and what they do.

Um it's a it's a it's a it's a great reminder of how cautious we have to be when it comes to celebrity um.

Endorsements.

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

And and and they come on both sides of politics.

I mean, also when they're attractive, it makes it even harder for us to actually hold our ground.

We're very attracted to charismatic people.

Yeah.

And actually we can suspend our.

Do you find RFK Jr.

attractive?

No, I think he's disgusting.

Really?

Yeah, do you?

Yeah, but he's sort of you know rugged and he's not rugged, he's the ex-heron addict.

Watching his weight, you know, he's not too not too fat.

He's not fat.

Yeah.

So, you know, maybe maybe he knows what he's talking about.

Go on.

Can we finish now?

Yeah, sure then.

Okay.

All right, we've demolished the claims, we've shown the fraud, we've exposed RFK Junior's grift.

We've counted the bodies.

83 tiny, innocent children in Samoa and infants dying of the completely preventable hooping cough in America, measles outbreak spreading again.

So let's end on something actionable.

David, what do we do when it comes to vaccines?

Well, first trust expertise.

Your child's pediatrician spent years in medical school, years in residency, and dedicates their career to child's health.

They know more than than Google and ChatGPT, they know more than the celebrities.

They know more than Robert F.

Kennedy Jr.

And if you have concerns, start there.

Start with your pediatrician.

Second, understand that skepticism is healthy, but it needs to be informed skepticism.

Real critical thinking means examining the quality of the evidence, not just collecting opinions that confirm what you already believe.

So, I mean, the whole thing about evaluate, people are constantly saying to me, you can't believe anything that's not true.

Um, the way you evaluate evidence is look at the source.

You know, is it a peer-reviewed study published in a reputable journal who funded the research?

Is there a conflict of interest?

Um, and has the study been replicated by other independent researchers?

Um, the the evidence for vaccines is overwhelming.

So no matter how many anti-vaxxers you listen to that tell you that the CDC and the and the WHO are corrupt, it's rubbish.

Um, they all, these major medical organizations all agree vaccines are safe and effective.

Um, so yeah, just you know, spot the grift.

There's grift out there.

Somebody is making money from selling supplements instead of you using a perfectly safe vaccine.

But you know, what happens with if one of your family members is actually falling for it?

What would you do?

I don't know, I'm I'd be too cranky at the moment.

Yeah.

You what would you do?

Be quick, hurry up.

Okay.

Um look, facts, as we've said, don't necessarily work, but you can try a few approaches.

You know, you could start with your shared values.

I know you love your kids, you want to protect them, so do I.

So let's look at the actual risk data together.

Um you can ask about their sources, you know, where did you where did you see it?

Can we look at it together?

Yeah, making them wrong doesn't work, right?

Making them wrong doesn't work.

Yeah.

Um and and look, if they won't listen, then protect your own family.

You know, just make sure your own kids are vaccinated on schedule, advocate for school vaccine requirements, support evidence-based health policy.

And if you have a child who's too young to be vaccinated, it limits their exposure to unvaccinated children.

So there we have it.

Uh listeners, um, thank you very much for listening to us today.

I hope, I really hope that this message is being disseminated to all the countries that listen to this podcast.

I mean, this is just a, you know, some countries, it's just two or three people that listen to me.

But please, you know, take the time to spread the news that vaccines are safe and not to listen to influencers, because it really is.

We are at the absolute coal face of trying to turn this disastrous disinformation around.

So thank you so much for tuning in.

Thank you, David.

Yes, I'm off to get a shingled shot.

Are you?

Yeah, you should.

I had one, and apparently it's protective against dementia.

Oh.

It's got an added benefit.

Vaccine bonus.

Vaccine bonus.

So thank you so much for tuning in, listeners.

And as always, stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hat on, and see you later.

Bye.

Thanks for tuning in to Why Smart Women with me, Annie McCubbin.

I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style.

Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day.

Remember, intelligence isn't enough.

You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think.

And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut.

If you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, work, car park, in a bar, or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling.

Staying safe needs to be our primary objective.

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Together we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions.

So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy, and keep your critical thinking at shiny.

This is Annie McCubbin signing off from White Smart Women.

See you later.

This episode was produced by Harrison Hest.

It was executive produced and written by me, Annie McCubbin.