Welcome back to the Cultural Lit Podcast.

I'm your host, Octavia Marie, and today I'm excited to be in conversation with future bestselling romance author Tom Vier.

Tom Vier Per Kraft's Indie romance books full of humor.

Too many shenanigans and as she puts it, them good tingles.

What makes Tom B's story so fascinating me is really her dual life by day.

She works in public policy and advocacy in New York State, and by night she writes these very spicy romance novels.

She describes herself as a good girl with kinks and calls herself an extroverted introvert, which I, I don't know about that, but, her romance writing has helped her flip the switch on her, reserved nature.

Tom Vier has a new book coming out next month, July 29th, called Tinder Offer, which is a second chance romance that brings us back to ravenous and gives us Madison's side of the story.

And for those of you who read the seven month Itch, you'll remember Madison wasn't exactly likable, But Tom Vier promises this book brings her full circle.

Welcome to the show, Tom Vier.

Thank you for having me.

as we talked about the upcoming novel is Tender Offer.

This is Madison story.

I first, was introduced her in the seventh month.

It, this was the first book she was introduced in, I think, and we, we weren't exactly feeling her in the second month itch.

very fair to say.

made you, was it always your in intention to write her story or what made you want to kind of tell her story and how do you redeem a character like Madison that we were not feeling in seventh months?

Well, good questions and thanks for having me.

Happy to be here.

So I knew that I wanted to write Madison's story as I was writing the seven month Itch.

I actually wrote the seven Month Itch back in 2021.

So it's been some years now.

And Madison's story, I saw glimpses of it when I was writing the seven Month Itch, but I knew that folks loved Emma and Miles, so I had to get that one out into the world.

I knew it was gonna be a stretch because of how I wrote Madison.

She is, is I, I don't know, I guess we could call her a villain.

but hurt people, hurt people, and I am a strong believer of that.

And I also feel that not everything is what it seems.

And so.

Yeah, the Tinder offer will, will give you a glimpse into Madison.

The, the first few chapters overlap with the seven month itch.

There's a part of the seven month itch where both Preston and Madison come into play.

And, I mean, you don't need to read the seven month itch per se to read Tinder offer, but it might be a good starting point.

but yeah, Madison has layers.

We only saw her from Justice's Vantage point, and so I would be very curious to see what folks think when they read Tender Offer.

And thus far we've had some early readers and the arcs went out already.

And some folks who are in the I Hate Madison Club are converting, which I think speaks to the layers of her character.

And that our concept of second chances doesn't have to be exclusively tied to romance.

It could be a second chance to do better.

Yeah.

When I read the seven month itch, I don't know if I necessarily saw her as a villain.

I saw her as.

Not so much as broken.

Maybe hurt, like I felt like there was a story there.

I felt myself like, Ooh, Madison girl, what are you doing?

oh no girl, no, don't go out like that.

It was more like that.

Like, no, what is her story?

And I kind of got that same vibe, I didn't even get the feeling that she was intentionally trying to set out to take someone's husband or hurt someone.

I just, found her as maybe like this kind of like bird with a broken wing, looking for something that's kind of the vibe I got from her.

So I didn't dislike, I just was like, oh girl, no.

go sit on somebody's couch

Go see that lady.

and you mentioned in the book description, or I, I think in the, in, in some of the previews or maybe in your shenanigans, you are, matter of fact, you are a hoot online.

Don't tell my mama please.

She got the internet, but it ain't that good.

You are a who.

And I, found you online and I hadn't read your books before, and I think it was someone had posted, they were looking for black romance labels with female characters over 40.

And you jumped in and was like, Hey, Ella gets the D and i, the the, I was like, Ooh, Ella gets the, what is that about?

So that's how I got that.

So I, I initially read that book and then I was like, oh, she's a hoot.

Let me go back.

And so then I went back and started and went to.

The seven month it and then miles apart.

your story writing is top tier.

Top tier, but in the book you describe Madison at, or you describe her as having graveyard of disappointment when it comes to dating.

Can you tell us a little bit, without giving too much away about her journey and what makes this second chance romance so compelling?

Yeah, so I think when you are describing her I don't think she's a villain, but some people think she's that in the B word plus some.

It's just what's informing her decisions with how she's showing up.

And so with Tender offer, without giving, um, too much away present day, Madison is over dating.

The, the pool smells like piss.

She wants nothing of it because every guy that she encounters just is not worth her time and might be trying to steal some time on her couch and possibly the change that's in there.

And so she just kind of wipes her hands.

Where there is seven month inch overlap.

And what I don't think is a secret is that Terrance from the seven month itch and Madison were together before Terrance and Justice, who are the main characters in the seven month itch.

In Tinder offer we have flashbacks.

So we're able to go 15 years before present day to see how, you know, cause and effect.

And so Madison was with Terrance, it wasn't anything serious for a couple months and dumps him to go to Paris and that's where she meets Preston.

And so there's some love that happens there.

There's some hurt.

Which we'll see that flashback, um, later on in Tinder offer that sort of, it's what caused it.

It's one of the catalysts that guards her heart.

And so fast forward, homegirl has had 15 years of awful dating situation.

She hasn't found anybody who is worth her time, her energy, or her shadow.

And so because of that, she gets really pissed off.

And one of the things with Madison is that she feels that in order to be worthy of love based on the 15 years of bad dating, you have to have this image.

You have to be the Disney princess or the good girl.

Um, you can't be rough around the edges or basically be outside of a box.

And so because of that, that hardens her, where she shows up in unhealthy ways where she might need to get smacks.

Yeah.

All of that informs her dating.

So homegirl, when we meet her in Tinder offer out the gate, she is over men and she just so happens to run into Preston, who is her ex from 15 years ago, who shows up at her door.

She wants nothing to do with them and she is on her ass.

Yeah.

And I like that though because, he's very intentional.

Once he gets this second opportunity, like I, I refute, he's not letting go.

He's like a pit bull, a kinky pit

A kinky pit.

But, that brings me, you, you and Tinder also mix, like in Miles apart.

We got some like the outrageous between Emma and my, and it's so funny because I think Emma is my favorite female character so far.

And Preston is my favorite male character.

I thought Mild now.

Miles was hilarious.

And I feel like Miles and Preston have some similar traits.

But Miles is just over the top and Preston is just kind of like really smooth with his, but still has that same kind of edge.

Miles just he is, not as refined.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Miles is, I, I describe him all the time as a cinnamon roll with 50 cent audacity.

Miles don't have time to be polished.

He will literally shut the lights off if need be.

'cause he has like hacking tendencies.

And you know, Preston is refined because he grew up in boarding school.

He comes from a billionaire family and he is the CEO of a, a very prestigious brand of hotels and resorts.

So at the core of him, he's polished underneath the tie.

He's nasty and

Very

Yeah.

Yeah.

But he is very tenacious.

He has to be with work and it's how he also shows up with, with love.

tend to offer mixes some humor, kink, some emotional chaos.

How did you balance all that spicy humor?

And so, because there was one scene, I thought, oh no, she not in the, in the office on the deck.

Oh.

Yeah.

well, one, I don't, I don't outline any of my books, so what you see is when I sit down, I also write by hand with composition notebooks.

So that specific scene just, I don't know where it came from, but it's, it's there.

But with the balance, I knew that, in miles apart.

The singles retreat, which overlaps with a seven month itch there in the, in the underbelly of the hotel, was a pop-up play space called Ravenous, where you can let your inner desires and your kinks out.

You had to wear a mask and a cloak, and you only see it in miles apart.

So we got a taste.

Now, since Preston owns the hotels, there's an implication that he is sort of the architect and the godfather of ravenous.

So I knew that the spice level was gonna be different in this book to, to answer to that identity of Preston.

But I also wanted the book to be.

Emotional just because Madison was masking, even though it was spilling out in real time, a lot of hurt.

We saw it in the seven month it, we saw a glimpse of her character arc in Miles apart where she was, you know, being forthcoming with her apologies and how she showed up and how awful that was.

And so she deals with that emotional part on almost like her own journey through Tender Offer and letting go of the things that no longer serve her.

And then I wanted to play around with flashbacks, which is something I haven't done before in this book, with the second chance, so that you can get the emotional investment of them being together 15 years ago and how it blew up in their face, which informs how they're showing up today.

But Preston had to work for it and a lot of the intimacy didn't come from a lot of Sex.

'cause they had to find their way back to each other and almost like reground themselves.

And that took a lot of time.

'cause Madison wasn't, wasn't interested.

So it was a mix.

But when we had fun, we had fun and I wanted to make sure to sprinkle certain parts.

it revs up definitely like throughout the book.

And then we land in in an emotional space.

Uh, in the end that kind of brings it full circle back to their beginning 15 years ago.

Right.

And as you say, you've kind of introduced this ravenous universe in the two books with a taste of exhibitionism, some pop-up play parties.

How did you research, or was it fun to write those scenes and did it push you kind of out of your, a comfort zone?

Because you, you're saying, you say you're an extroverted introvert Now, I, I, I say that about myself, but I don't see.

You'll be going there.

and how did you research some, because some, it, it sounded just believable enough like, oh, I could see some of this happening or going down, especially with people in their level.

but make it so that it's, I hate to put this in these kind of terms because, you know, with everything that's going on with, I don't even wanna mention his name, but how do you, balance those things in these scenes with almost a little bit of, the popup in the play parties, a kind of little bit of, oh, are we talking about that or are people doing this?

And then, you know, did it push you outta your comfort

Yes, yes and yes.

So I, I, I will forever clean.

I am an extroverted introvert when I love being around people, but I also stay in my house.

So if I don't need to go outside, I'm not outside.

And I also get very awkward in real life being online.

I'm like, oh, there's, there's a shield.

so I could be goofy because I don't have to see anybody, um, until I have to see people and it's like, oh hell.

Um, but yeah, so ravenous is definitely taboo, um, especially in this climate and in this country because other countries are more accepting and, and sexually liberated.

For me, I, I am more like justice color code, the underwear, and just vanilla with sprinkles and some caramel on occasion.

And so for me it was exciting to sort of explore that because that's very counter to how I show up.

And I tried to portray an accurate depiction by, um.

I guess checking in with folks who are a part of the culture, but then also acting like if I was gonna, you know, become a member to a place like Raven, this, you know, what, what do the consent forms look like?

where, where would I start?

And so I actually did look at real places, in states where, certain things are, are legal and also out the country, specifically in London, since this takes place there.

And just sort of looked at what was available and the culture and the consent and, and just sort of like the, the safe space that they create to be liberated.

So that was cool.

And then also because it's not me, I could write other characters doing things that like I might be curious about.

So that was fun too.

now you described Preston as sin, a kinky cinnamon roll.

How do you balance that?

You know, sweetness.

'cause I didn't, I don't know if I necessarily saw Preston as a cinnamon roll in the traditional sense.

I think he was just a little bit more undercover maybe, but not necessarily a cinnamon roll.

But how do you balance that kind of sweetness, alpha, beta thing with the kink exploration?

Because it, it, it, it takes skill.

And I think you mastered it with Preston because I, I didn't get cinnamon roll like from him.

I kind of got a little alpha thing going with

But I think both don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Like, uh, for me, you know, cinnamon roll is just an umbrella where a golden retriever, I think that's what folks are, are calling like the happy go lucky and like super energetic people.

Like, to me that's a version of a cinnamon roll.

And one of the things that I love about cinnamon rolls is that at their core, into their partner or partners, if it is a multiple player situation, is that that's who gets the sweet and gushy.

So you can have in different cinnamon rolls, you can have grumpy cinnamon rolls, you can have the overly excited cinnamon rolls, with miles apart, you know, he had the 50 cent audacity, but he was 10 toes down for Emma making sure that she was eating and was wearing the proper footwear when she was on her heels all the time with Preston.

He, so.

Not hard shell, but he has to be very indifferent with his business life.

Also, there's a dynamic with his father where he can't show too much emotion, but with Madison, like he wasn't afraid to beg, ain't too proud to beg when he showed up to her door the first time, calling her by her nickname Puff for her love of Puff pastries, like saying like, please talk to me.

Um, and how he bent backwards to try and, get to her.

So whether it's driving three hours each way to the airport just so that, you know, she can ignore him in the car, but uh, he could be in her presence if it's, you know, cooking for her a homemade meal in an apron that his grandmother is Nona gave him.

There's little touch points that he does that's specifically for her, where like she pulls out his soft spot because she's a safe place for him and he's trying to recreate being a safe place for her.

So I think even though he.

Has a little bit of alpha tendencies or he is not strong handed, but he, um, you know, demands certain things.

At the core, he is sweet and gushy for her, so his cinnamon roll looks a little bit different, but it's

Yeah.

Yeah, because I was like, Hmm, I don't get Santa member, because I'm like, hi Preston.

And when you describe, like, I had been trying to picture him when you first introduced Preston in, the seven month itch.

I have been trying to, picture him.

And then in this book you give, Madison explaining what, who he looks like or what he looks like to her friend.

And I was like, oh yeah, okay.

I get it.

yeah, yeah, because, 'cause Preston, he, he's, he's got melanin in it.

He's melanated, his mama was, black Sicilian, his grandmama looks like Earth Kit and she's black.

Sicilian, his daddy is an asshole and he also happens to be white English, but he is like a melanated, he picks up more of his Italian features.

So he's like a, a melanated Mariano, uh, Deval.

I'm

Mm-hmm.

And when you said him, I was like, okay, I get it now.

Yeah.

But just with a little bit more texture in the hair and more melanin in the skin, but

I immediately got it.

I was like, okay, I get it.

Yeah.

Yes.

know what?

Hell yeah.

Hell yeah.

it.

Y yeah.

And I was like, okay.

And that kind of brings me around.

You were telling me how intentional he was with pursuing Madison.

And it kind of, you, one of the things you list as a trope is, and I say this all the time to women, if he wanted to, he would.

And it's such a powerful concept, especially for women who've experienced disappointment in dating.

And I, I kind of like, you know, um, I talked a little bit, uh, with Danielle Allen recently about this, but the whole struggle, love thing.

And I'm like, no, it's not supposed to be like that.

It's, that's not what it looks like now.

There's a difference between having some, you know, differences of opinion and having to integrate lives and just, you know, emotions and whatever.

But struggle, love is, no, that's not it.

And, how do you think Preston embodies this?

Because I get it.

And, and, you know, and that's the one thing I live by.

I'm like, okay, you, because your actions say it all for me.

And I'm like, okay, well then if you wanted to, you would.

And so when those things are happen, they did checked off and it's kind of like, okay, strike one.

You know?

Oh, okay.

Strike two.

Oh, okay, well, we are here.

You know, and, um, and understanding what those boundaries and what that really means, and that you, you don't have to struggle for somebody's love.

It doesn't, that's not what it looks like.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

order to be worthy of being treated a certain way.

And so that's all be bs.

And at the end of the day, like, and this goes back to Eleg, the D, which was in the dedication, which is to, for us to know our worth and add tax.

Like it's okay for our standards to not be in the basement in order for us to think that we can qualify for somebody's love.

And so with Preston, I wanted to embody and in the book that like you are somebody's choice and not their option.

And.

It's almost like a, A Sierra and a Russell Wilson or even Tiana and a Mufasa.

Like when you, when you are loved.

really called him that man

Yeah, yeah.

Like what is his name?

Aaron something.

Aaron Pierre.

But we like he, he's Forever.

Forever.

Mufasa But like when you are loved, right?

It could be healing, but also you need to heal yourself to determine what are my boundaries?

What am I gonna say Yes or say no to Yeah.

And so I really wanted Preston, he doesn't complete Madison, but Preston is running for his life to show that he can be worthy of loving her.

Right.

The second time around.

And so, you know, the actions speak louder than words.

And even though he knew she wasn't receiving or in a place to receive in the beginning where he wanted to go, it was the continuation of the actions and the dedication to her.

And I don't even wanna say patience, but just like the understanding of where they were and that I, I love you enough to, to continue to show, like I'll fly out to you even if you don't talk to me.

But at the end of the day, if, if a love interest, however that will be for somebody if they wanted to.

Like they would, and you have to decide like if that's good enough or if it's not.

Right, and I think part of the problem is sometimes women don't even know what they want and you know what those boundaries are.

And so when they get into these relationships, they can't answer those questions.

So the communication, there's a lack of communication because if you can't properly communicate what it is you want and look for and need, how does your partner

Yeah.

I can only speak for myself and my journey, but, but I know, I know for me, I felt like I had to fit into a box in order to attract what I wanted.

And sometimes I question like, if I was attracting what I considered the wrong thing, like was it me?

And you know.

I did some self work, and a lot of times it just isn't you, it's just what's in the atmosphere and like, oh, you know, I'm, I'm gonna come to you and will you deal with this bs?

but just being really intentional with yourself, was good.

And then I also took a break too.

Like I told God the next person, and this was years ago.

The next person that I, I would like is my husband.

So I'm just gonna pray.

I didn't have Sierra's prayer, but the next person that I met happened to become my husband.

And it'll be 18 years of togetherness, 13 years,

Amazing.

Yeah.

That's

our little black love story.

But yeah, like knowing you're worth adding tax and that you are the choice and you don't have to be somebody's option.

And I think society puts the, the pressure on, on women specifically where we're always told there's more women than men.

And that obviously, like if you're in a cis hetero, relationship.

But that doesn't mean that we have to be in the harem unless you want to.

Like you could

And or that we have to compromise and settle and accept things that we normally wouldn't accept because you know, society is telling us this and you have to be this, and you have to do this, and you have to wanna do these things.

And I was like, okay.

Those are things like, you know, there was recently something of Keith Sweat.

you know, ignorant anyway, but he says something about.

Quote unquote modern women and quote unquote, modern dating and how women these days don't know how to cook and iron.

And I'm like, you looking for your mama?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, do you not know how to iron your clothes?

You know?

And those are the things that they're expecting.

Like, yeah, you need to go find her then and stop trying to fit all these people into this square peg of what you want in these women.

Okay, well then go find that woman.

ahead.

was gonna say, you know, one of the things, the, the big ugly that's hiding in plain sight that's not being spoken about is the patriarchy.

Like

Yes.

we are not pick me people.

It, you should also be thankful to find a good partner in us, not just the other way around of us finding a good man.

And so I, my female main characters all go through different things, but at the core of themselves is, is strength.

And like they're not gonna run after a man.

And I think that also in this day and age with patriarchy on the, the upteenth audacity, it would behoove men to remember that like, we don't have to tap dance for your love.

Also love should be a partnership.

So if you're approaching it from a certain mentality, you should go sit on that lady's couch because that's not healthy or healing or a safe space for anybody to be in love with.

Exactly.

That kind of brings me to kind of your, your day job.

Because in your day job, it involves very serious policy work.

you know, I you've worked in on criminal justice reform, housing advocacy, Racial justice campaigns, and I see that some of that makes its way into your books, which also leads to, you know, realistic portrayals of life and things that are happening.

How do you switch between that heavy work and then writing, you know, the romance and, and that, but, you know, again, some of that seeps except, I saw it in, Ella against the d I've seen it in, you know, in this book with Preston, even as a billionaire, the issues that he's, campaigning and, Advocating for, how do you kind of switch between and how much of your day makes it into your books and you know, how do you balance those, those things out?

yeah.

Well, the same as with the plot.

I, I don't outline, so there has never been a book where it's like, I wanna talk about this politically focused topic and like embedded.

Into, my books with Ella, she was in, childcare.

And so the lack of appropriations for a, a childcare related issue in DC was a real thing.

And so if I have the platform, then I wanna amplify things that need to be amplified with miles apart.

We, we touched on dark money politics and like a lack of, digital safety when it comes to data security, a tender offer.

I didn't know I was gonna go into climate, but that was on my heart.

And also I wanted to tackle the notion of ethical billionaires or like how, even in the romance genre, we really love billionaires, but they're super problematic because there is no equitable world with them in real life.

And so what does that, how do you contend with that in, in a book?

And so those are some of the ideas that we're, we're stirring in.

My head as I was writing the story.

And what's interesting is, is that, on the climate side, I, I won't give anything away, but some of the things that were mentioned in the epilogue with Madison's niece, ju is actually playing out.

It's based on real life.

It's happening right now.

And I think, Kennedy Ryan talks about this with, social commentary and embedding things.

I think it's, for myself, I only speak for myself important that if I have a platform that's gonna reach people in different demographics and regions, that while they're enjoying the romance and the smut and the shenanigans and the humor, you know, we can also put in some real world things that hopefully make you think a little bit after, after reading.

So.

Right.

I enjoy doing that.

And then outside of that, with my nine to five, which is in policy advocacy, and I am, I'm a co-executive director of a nonprofit that focuses on this.

Writing for me is sort of like my place to just breathe.

And that's one of the things that I love specifically about Black Romance, um, romance in general.

You get happily ever after, but I could literally wrap myself in black love with the stories that I read and also the things that I write.

So it's healing for me dealing with stuff day to day.

Um, and I hope that folks who pick up the nuggets of some of the policy things will chew on them beyond the book.

in your policy work, I'm going back to this, does it also like, 'cause your next book, I can't wait for it.

I'm really, interested in how you do that one because it's out of the ordinary, especially for a black woman to be writing about a rugby romance, and you know, I interestingly got into, rugby overseas, and then of course my favorite team became the All Blacks and the South African team.

And so now, 'cause I'm like, oh, I don't know, I don't think women know about these rugby teams.

Do they know about that over here?

So does any of your policy work and the kinds, does that influence the kinds of love stories you write or who you write them for, or who you write them about?

Kind of going back into your real life, bleeding into your romance stories, d does some of that come up when you're in your policy where you're like, Hmm, I bet he would make a good character for

you know, that governor,

that governor.

interesting enough?

No.

Um, the only, the only time that I thought about it is I would love to eventually do a politically scandal type of, like suspense.

I don't know if it will be romantic.

Yeah.

Like I'll probably step outside the romance genre.

And this is maybe some years for like a suspense.

Series.

Uh,

romantic suspense.

I do plan to do one.

Uh, the seeds, the seeds were in miles apart, but like a full on suspense that is about the policy realm and all of that.

Maybe one day.

But yeah, with the policy, like I, I don't know what I'm gonna infuse until the story starts crafting itself with, with One Night Stand the first of the rugby rom-com books.

I think we're leaning towards food, food policy.

I live in the Buffalo area and we have food deserts, and so that's something that's sort of just like organically coming up.

It's not something I planned, but yeah.

We'll, we'll see.

It, it just, it, it pops up.

And I'm very excited for the rugby because I feel like it's been the, the US just doesn't.

We need to do better with supporting rugby.

I am a rugby wife.

My husband has played for, yeah, my husband started playing when he first, he's from Panama.

And when he came to this country I think when he was like 19 for college or 1819, that's when he started playing rugby.

And then throughout our, I was gonna say our career, throughout our marriage and even before we got married, I was on the pitch on the sidelines watching him.

So it's been a part of our culture.

Uh, he still plays now, I think we're, we're winding it down, but like his local team that he played for actually won a championship

Wow.

Okay.

it's it's been a part of us and so I've been excited to write it from like that vantage point of being amerit to a rug.

Well, I was gonna ask, what inspired you to write a rugby romance?

he did.

So what can we expect from that?

Uh, how do you know how many you're gonna write yet?

Or,

expect?

I, I know you have the, are you finished writing the first one or are you

no, I'm, I'm I'm on chapter 10 and I, I have finish to give it, to give it to the pipeline.

The pipeline it goes through.

Um, I'll, I'll be done writing it by, uh, mid August.

For it to come out, uh, December 18th.

So thus far since I don't, I don't plot it surprisingly, is a, is a friends to lovers story, which I did not expect.

I don't have anything against friends to lovers.

It's just not my go-to trope to read because I'm like, how are y'all good friends for so many years?

And don't nobody say nothing, but then you're gonna date other people.

I don't like that.

In this story, if you read elegance, the d then this is Antonio, the best friend of Preston, which you saw the setup

Yeah, I was just gonna ask, are we gonna see, like, have we seen these characters in any of the other books yet?

You saw both of 'em because in the scene in Ella where after a rugby game, they, they go out and.

Morgan Julian's sister is like, let's go out.

Well, when they're together, when Julian's together with Antonio, Antonio's eyes is on a woman who's there and he says Miriam, and like, oh, she, she doesn't want me.

And Antonio's kind of like a player.

He gets around.

And so those are the two main characters in this book.

So the first three chapters are actually on the same timeline as Ella gets the d where it picks up New Year's Eve on the same timeline as Ella.

And so, Miriam used to babysit Antonio 'cause they, they have a, they have a five,

a little age difference gap too.

little, like a five year, like he used to get into stuff when he was in middle school.

So his parents would call Miriam over.

And so he's always crushed on her like.

His crush was Tatiana Ali.

That's what she looks like, but they never were in the same circles 'cause of their age difference.

And when they were like, Miriam doesn't come outside, she's, she's a book nerd.

She's also into science, an engineer, all of that.

And so, you will see, uh, when I stand gone wrong, she goes out New Year's Eve determined, to have one.

And she runs into him at a bar and he's like, let's go.

They have some chicken, there's some rotisserie chicken involved, and then there is a coming together that ends up with one of them in the hospital with a broken nose.

So nothing ever happens.

But because of that, they've become friends.

write some of the craziest scenes

Yeah.

in these books that have me, like I literally in tender Offer, I laughed so hard.

That, that mortifying family scene.

Yes.

With

And, where I guess Madison meets, Preston's family, or is it, the opposite is, is Preston meets Madison's family and her grandma,

No, her mama.

her mama, and, I mean, let's say in a compromising position, there's cake, there's icing, hand prints, Preston says something like, he's mortified and he holds her tighter.

Like they're not naked and covered in cake.

Like how do you come up with these chaotic situations?

it just, it pops up when I write.

I don't, I didn't,

Like what is,

going on in your head.

I probably wanted a piece of cake at the time that I was writing, and then also because it was a birthday and we, we saw them bring the cake into her room and nobody ate it.

So I'm like, we, we have to use it somehow.

Um, the rotisserie chicken in one night stand, the rugby romance.

Like I was actually eating some chicken when I wrote that, and I'm like, well, they should probably get some protein before they try and do what they're gonna do.

So why not some wings and a rotisserie chicken?

because your, your, your, your comedy in the mix of the steamy scenes are top tier.

I literally had, I had tears like, and I could picture it and poor my mom, you know, I could imagine, you know, mom looking at, you know, she's this Creole mother.

And then, you know, the whole sticky situations before that didn't involve someone's mother like you are, like, I'm, and I, I, I found myself like, where does she get these things?

And it's like, these, these can't be all made up.

I'm like, are these like real life making their way into some, like, is this someone's story is one of her friend's stories?

Like, 'cause it was like these, but I could all, I could see them happening.

So it makes it, like, that's what makes, to me, your stories feel like, like these are, they feel real and authentic 'cause you are like, and, and especially even with Preston because you know it's a billionaire.

And of course when you're writing the billionaire trope, you still wrote him in a way that feels real.

So how do you do that?

And then count a bound, how do you develop his character?

But as a billionaire, but write it in a way that's not like a character drawer.

Yeah.

Well, thank you.

I think what really informed Preston was his mother's side of the family.

'cause his grandmother don't play and we never, we never meet her in this book.

You might see her in a different book.

Oh,

I'm saving

I would love to have seen some of her, his grandmother.

'cause she seems like a hoot too.

Yeah, she's coming 'cause I'm saving, I, I set up the mafia romcom, which will be a standalone that I'm gonna release next year.

And there's, there's some relations, Preston might be related to that, that main character.

But, um, Preston's grandmother and how he grew up.

also him seeing his father and his dynamic bet, the dynamic between his father and his grandfather.

Like they hated each other.

They, I don't wanna say they were Polaris 'cause they were both assholes, but they really despised each other.

And so Preston didn't want to emulate that.

And he also had the love of his grandmother.

'cause this isn't a spoiler in the book, but like, Preston's mother passed away giving birth to him.

It's one of the, the trigger content warnings.

And so we kind of touch on the black, the mortality rate when it comes to black women and childbirth.

And so those things really inform how he moves differently, among the ultra wealthy that normally don't give a damn.

And like he, he picks up in environmentalism because his mother, that was one of her passions before she passed away.

And so a lot of that and the grounding of his grandmother, um, which is more of like the backstory is how he shows up so he knows how to operate.

Also, like Preston went to school, boarding school for middle school and high school and even college here in the States.

So he distanced himself from ultra wealthy people where yeah, he was still around boarding school kids, but he was also around like.

Everyday pockets of society.

And so I think the culmination of that helped him to not become an asshole, but he can still be one when he needs to.

He's just grounded in a way that's different than the people he's around.

How does policy advocacy, how do you, how did you get into romance writing coming from that background?

Is it, you know, something you always wanted to do?

Like how, how does that happen?

therapy is the short, it's, I'm not even lying.

I never saw myself as a writer.

I never read romance outside of like maybe waiting to exhale in another Terry McMillan book, that my mama had.

But like I was, yeah, I was removed, but it was the 2020 uprisings where I'm an empath.

Um, and so things were hitting.

Hard in feeling like I'm outside and I'm trying to do my part, but I know it's not enough because you can't, one person can't change a system and needs all of us, the collective and community.

And I went to a black woman therapist and one of the first things she said to me is, you need to heal yourself.

And so what do I do that's outside of feeding the policy side because I felt like I wasn't deserving to sort of take rest, but rest is a form of joy and it's also a form of resistance.

And I had to learn that.

And so I said, okay.

I was also like finishing up, I was wrapping up graduate school too, which was focused on policy.

And I said, okay, well I'll read for fun.

And she said, okay, well put the Malcolm X autobiography down.

Like don't pick up anything heavy.

And I'm like, well, what's the one thing I could read that isn't heavy?

Well, romance sounds good.

So, um, it was 2020, like December when I started reading romance.

And then I had a month off in January before my final.

Semester of grad school was, and that's when I wrote the seven month itch, a very rough, ugly draft.

And I watched a lot of movies, which is where you'll see like random pop culture movies and, and series embedded.

And, and so ideas came and, and that's how I got into romance.

I was reading, I think in a month's time I probably read like 20 different romance books and I haven't stopped reading since then.

Um, and I've just been writing random stuff that pops up in my head

that's amazing.

but therapy is the, the short answer.

And, and so you've pretty much been like a self-taught, you know, studying the genre.

And, who are some of the authors you admire and what were some, were some of your greatest, I guess, lessons learned in writing Romance?

Lord, we'd be here all

I didn't know.

so, so some of my faves like Kennedy Ryan obviously is, is like, have to, I would also say Jaque Jay

my God.

I just, I am on.

The deepest into her back catalog.

the guts.

Yes.

And it, and it started, it started I think maybe at the top of the year with, I saw someone talking about the 10,000 hours with a menace or a rich menace or something like that.

And I read that book, so I was like, oh, let me go back.

And I was like, oh, wait a minute.

She has.

And so then I was like, well, let me, I started with who she, the books that she said connected with this book.

And so I went back to like Capone and I've just been like deep in my Jaque era for like, since the top of the year.

Like, and I'm like, I'm still going.

And now she has me, like, if she doesn't put this em three out.

Yeah.

And I want goon, like I want, I want, I want Goon Squad merch, and I know, um, Don is coming out.

But yeah, like love letters to Staten Island books one through five.

Like I'm deep, I'm deep in the guts.

Me too.

back in like 2019,

I'm like, so far, like I'm in like, the way she writes, it's not like, I have to try to interview her like I have to like, she sex on my list because I had been so amazed.

And you can see like, you know how she's, you know how she's come along in, in the craft, but like it's so much to go back.

And I'm like, I can't stop reading her books.

And then I was like, okay, I have to put her to the side.

'cause I had plus size player on all these things and your book that's coming in.

I was like, oh my God, it's so much.

Okay, I have to put her down for a minute.

Well, thank you for making some time for me.

But yeah, like Brownsville bullet, like I could talk about J'S books and I actually met her at Black Romance Book Fest 'cause she had, she had mine and like, it took, it took everything in me not to tackle her like a second string linebacker.

'cause I, I adore her.

Um, also, uh, Shavonne Latrice.

Um, I'm probably gonna butcher this name, but like, lady Nisha, like, she writes humor in a way that I'm just like, I just wanna quit.

Don't quit.

Don't

no, no.

Um, oh my gosh.

Like, uh, J Dominique L Case and, uh, uh, JL Segers is another one.

Like, like there's certain authors that I'm like, I, I adore all of 'em, but like, certain ones have specialties with different things, like the world building or even like the dialogue or just how things plot out.

Ae Valdez is another one, fellow Baltimore, uh, girly Natasha Bishop.

And

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

She,

into.

yeah.

black indie authors or black romance authors who have helped to shape how I show up,

Yeah.

And, and you, you have chose, you chose the indie route,

Yes.

you know, how has that experience been?

I mean, I, I, I'm assuming there's some freedom and flexibility in that, but there's also the other side of it.

How has that it experience been for you, especially with marketing and building a readership and you're, you're basically all the things

Yeah.

full-time day

top.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's actually not very unique.

There's so many authors, even traditionally published authors who, who still work, um, full time.

I'm, I'm still learning as I go, I'm a very throw it to the wall and see what sticks type of person.

Um, I do love the creativity and the flexibility to be the, the final decision maker.

I also love the, the equity component where I'm not fighting for percentages because yes, I have to shell out, but I also like get to keep, but the marketing part, Lord, if I ain't have to do that.

Or show my face or do a stupid TikTok or whatever, like I wouldn't, but it's, it's been a good journey.

But I'm still, I'm still finding my footing because I still have the new car smell on me.

'cause my, my debut only came out last year

And that's, that's, I can't believe that.

'cause I'm like, you've written all, you know, the, the ones you've, the elegance of Dee the, so those are all very solid, very well, like I enjoyed every last one of them.

And I

you.

known that the first book was written last year.

yeah, the first, the seven month it, I wrote January, 2021 and I sat on it and my husband was like, okay, well you done wrote this.

So what are we doing?

Um, Ella I started writing in 2023, I got a bill signed into law in New York State.

Then that's when I wrapped it up, like into 2023, early 20, 24 miles.

I wrote, last year and Tinder offer, I started writing, fall of last year and wrapped it up early this year.

So I'm gonna try and average, I was able to sit on books, which made it look like I did more than I did in the year.

But I think moving forward, I will probably aim to release two books a year.

Okay.

Okay.

that's all I got.

And what I like also how you write, you write your work often considers black women in various stages of life.

how important is that representation to you?

Because, I think it's important, you know, as we, you know, we age, you know, things are happening in women's lives and, you know, black women are single longer, and so life doesn't stop at 30.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so I, I love seeing like older, some of the older characters in your books, the 40 and Up.

But they're all, they all seem to be in different stages of life.

Uh, Madison has this very high profile fashion life going on.

She's, a boss in her game.

And I love seeing that, you know, Ella's at a different place where, you know, she's coming out of the, a divorce, but then she's going back into, you know, what she wants to do in her life.

And so, you know, all these different things are happening.

How important is it to you and what do you want readers to take away when they see themselves in your characters?

yeah.

I want readers to take away that there is no such thing as perfection and that everybody has layers.

So, like, justice is probably one of the closest, one of the characters that's most closest to my anxious side in, in real life.

And so at work, she's great.

But she's always like second guessing herself, um, asking if she's enough and she's a flight, not a fight girly.

And so I wanted to mix it up because I didn't want my characters to be very singular without the layers.

But then I also didn't want to be writing the same characters with all the books.

So they're gonna have different jobs, different industries.

Um, they're gonna come from different walks of life.

Um, in one night stand the rugby romance that will come out later this year.

Miriam, you know, has a PhD in mechanical engineering, which is a nod to my husband twice because she's Afro Panamanian like he is.

And she's also an engineer.

He doesn't have a PhD, but he's mastered in engineering.

And I think it's important just to show the layers.

And then also that like we don't all have to have it together and not having it all together.

We'll look differently on different people.

And so I like the dynamic of the layers.

Peeling those back.

And I like having diversity of black women.

Also across the diaspora too, like justice is black American.

Um, Emma is, um, black biracial, or she, she's black presenting identifies as black.

Um, Madison is Creole.

And then we have Miriam who's gonna be, you know, black Panamanian, second generation born here.

And so I love the flavors and I also love the messiness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You love a lot of mess.

Yes.

Okay.

I have some quick fun questions for you.

You write a lot of different tropes.

You write, you'll have a lot of tropes in one book, which I, I like the different tropes in the book.

What is your

favorite?

trope to write?

Can cinnamon roll be a favorite trope?

Um.

absolutely.

Okay.

I think the one that I wanna stop writing after Tinder offer is second chance, but I feel like I'm gonna get bullied into doing a novella for like Morgan and, and Joseph from Ella.

So to be continued.

But I love, I love cinnamon rolls.

it's that be a trope.

you write them well.

Thank you.

your most challenging scene in Tinder offer to write.

I'm trying to like, go through the Rolodex challenging scene.

I would say this is not gonna be juicy, but the, the flashback, the last flashback of The event where Madison and Preston separated, because when I first wrote it, I was like, he can't be too mean to her.

And then my developmental editor was like, but they broke up because of this.

So he needs to be, so I didn't make it irredeemable where like they couldn't come back from it.

But I did have to lean in in a way that I didn't want to.

Um, 'cause then I felt bad and I was like, I'm self-assertive.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, So that, that was challenging.

So Madison has had some of the, the dating experience that a lot of us have had these days, um, in the modern dating scene.

If Madison can give one piece of dating advice, what would it be?

If you see Earl on the streets who clips his toenails and, and moved in with her after a couple of dates run.

Um, but that, but that it's okay to take a break 'cause she, she took herself out the game.

Um, she felt like it was just repeat, awful, awful, awful.

And so she removed herself and she didn't date for close to a year.

And so it's, it's okay to take yourself out the game if you need to.

And, and you've had, like I said, you've, you've wrote some of the funniest scenes in your, your books.

Do you have a funniest scene you've written that you think is like one of your funniest or one of your favorite funny scenes from your books?

Because how do you even keep a straight face when you're writing these?

Because do you know you're writing something that's crazy in the moment?

Or do you go back and read like, okay, this is, this is chaotic, this is crazy.

I've restrained myself, so I haven't been fully unhinged with

Are you kidding me?

No, I'm serious With, with the mafia rom-com.

That will probably be the one that would be, um, most unhinged, but, but my favorite.

Yeah.

And then be like, okay, well put, put that back in the closet.

I think, I think my favorite scene to date that sticks out, the one that's most memorable would be in Ella on the kitchen counter.

Oh,

When, when Julian's there and she doesn't know.

But in Ella, one of my favorite scenes is when, um, Ella's best friend who doesn't know that she's.

Hanging out with her brother in biblical ways when her friend lets herself into Julian's townhouse and doesn't expect to see her.

And Ella and Julian in bed together.

And outta reflex Ella gets scared, and when she gets scared, she throws stuff.

And the first thing that was around was that, colored dildo, which smacks Madison in the head.

That that was a fun one to write.

I don't know what made me think

I was like,

she getting it to the forehead.

like, how did she come up with this?

It was just, it was a reflex.

Maybe people cover themselves.

She just, she tosses fo dinglings.

Um.

not the fold Digga link.

I'm, I'm out done.

See this and this.

These are the shenanigans that you're up to when you are online also.

And I'll, I'll get onto threads and like, did she just freak that?

Ma'am?

Put your, go close out.

Close out and go your phone down.

Yeah.

I'm, I, threads is the one place and I'm making sure nobody else is.

Home Threads is the one place where, um, my father doesn't follow me.

'cause my dad reads all my books and yeah, my family does.

and I'm like, just

What does your

we're not related.

I don't ask him because I don't, I don't

wanna know.

He will say, um, 'cause he read Miles Apart and he was like, so I finished and I'm like, okay.

I didn't ask, how was it?

He was like, it got some shit in it.

'cause my, my dad has similarities to Miles, so.

Um, but yeah, but like my dad's not on threads.

My husband's not on threads.

No, none of my family to my knowledge is on thread.

So I'm like, okay, I could be a little bit uncensored with my shenanigans that pops in my mind here.

Um, 'cause nobody's there.

that's,

that's, I think we can leave it there.

Yeah.

The fold dingling.

We can leave it there.

Um, before we go, where can listeners pre-order Tinder offer and follow your journey?

And you guys have got to follow her on social media.

If nothing else.

If you're not on threads, you have to get on threads just to follow her and get up to the shenanigans that she is up to on Threads please.

Well thank, thank you.

And also, I apologize in advance 'cause I don't sit around and just think about things.

I'm.

It is verbal diary, so I need to like scale it back, but you can pre-order Tinder offer.

The ebook is 3 99.

It's on Kindle.

Um, the paperbacks are coming and there's actually an exclusive, paperback campaign that I'm doing with a Rochester base romance only bookstore called Burn Bright Books.

So if you go to Burn Bright Bookstore, and you can order online and they could ship it, you can get a signed copy of the paperback and then there are.

Three stickers.

I'm trying to think if they're, maybe one or two might not be suitable for work.

And then you'll get like a, a, a bookmark that comes with it.

And then you can also go to the frenchy F-R-E-N-C-H-Y press.com and you could pre-order there.

You'll get an aesthetic postcard, a bookmark, and definitely not suitable for work bookish stickers and assigned paperback that goes there.

And then whatever indie bookstore, stocks it, you can get it from there.

And there you have it.

Thank you Taner for joining me today.

I can't wait for everyone to get their hands on this book, you guys.

It's sexy, it's funny, it's full of heart.

And if you're into second chances with a lot of heat and heroines who don't have it all figured out, please go and pre-order Tinder offer.

It's out July 29th in paperback and on Kindle.

And until next time, keep reading and keep loving like it's a romance novel.

I am going to go order my, so I can get my N-S-F-W-N-S-N-S.

F work.

W you guys get it?

My pre-order and my signed copy, but please, go get yours.

Thank you for stopping it in and talking to me and having this conversation.

I've had so much fun with you.

and we'll see you online.

Thank you.

It was great talking to you.