Case 1: Yeah, let's just.

Let's just do it.

Yeah.

Case: Yeah.

Sam: This will be a short one.

Yeah, yeah, let's just do it.

Case 1: Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Another Pass at Another Pass podcast.

I'm Case Aiken, and you know what?

I often like to take a look down the memory lane with one of my close friends here.

And today that really close friend is my co host, Sam Alicea.

Hi, Sam.

It is wonderful doing these extremely self indulgent podcasts with you, these bonus episodes where of course, on Another Pass at Another Pass, we look at old episodes of Another Pass that might actually be too old for your podcast players to actually register them.

And they are certainly before when Sam joined the show.

Yeah.

So today we are looking at a.

Case 1: At a retrospective movie and we're looking at an episode where I happen to have one of my really good friends with it because today we're looking at the episode where we watched Captain America the First Avenger.

Sam: Yeah.

Yeah, it's a good movie.

Case 1: It's a really good movie.

Sam: I was actually surprised.

I was just like, what?

Why?

Who wanted to talk about this?

This is a very hard movie to critique.

And that holds up in the episode.

You guys have to get very nitpicky.

Case 1: Oh, yeah.

So this is an episode with my best friend, my best man for my wedding, my friend Drew, who is not a podcaster but wanted to talk about the movie.

And I love talking about this movie.

So it didn't take a lot of convincing for me to be like, yeah, we could, we can talk about this movie when in retrospect, I like, the fifth episode concept didn't exist yet, so we couldn't look at like great movies from that lens of like, well, what were the.

What was the chaos behind the scenes?

Sam: Right?

Case 1: So, and not that I know that there was any chaos necessarily for Captain America the First Avenger, but like, you know, at least we.

That, that's the.

That's usually the excuse for why we would talk about a really good movie.

This is trying to polish a gem, like, you know, like polishing it to the sheen where it is bright and blinding everyone around because God damn it, do.

I love this movie.

And Drew loved this movie.

And you love this movie.

Like, it's a good.

It's a good goddamn movie.

I think I make some good points in the episode about it, which we will get into, but let's just rip this band aid off.

Getting into the episode.

I am sorry, folks.

This is probably the worst audio we've had in a while.

Case 1: It's an episode I remember recording, it was at my grandfather's house and it was using the Tascam that I using in the early days.

The one that had like that 15 minute restriction on all my episodes.

So everything was 15 minutes and then 15 minute chunks and then 15 minutes chunks.

And I think that one of the mics was dead.

I think that all of the audio I was getting is from the lav that was one person and it was an omni.

And so one person, me, is sitting a distance away.

And so you can pick him or you can pick me up.

And then coming in very clearly is Drew.

Sam: Yeah.

Case 1: The problem is that means that you can't cut out Drew when I'm talking.

In fact, you have to make it really loud.

And so things like say, Drew drinking a glass with ice in it are really apparent in the whole episode.

So there's that.

And then I sound like I'm in a goddamn echo chamber from way.

Or a wind tunnel at least.

Like I'm so far away from the mic and it's being boosted so much it just, I don't sound great.

I'm sorry, I just, I'm real sorry about that.

Sam: It is, it is.

I want to say this as he apologizes for piercing.

It is not the worst audio we've had so far in our retrospective though.

So it's, it's not an audio files dream but it's not that.

It's, it's not the most horrendous thing that you've heard in this.

Case 1: True.

I am getting better as an audio editor and I'm hoping to clean it up a little bit also when we like actually put it through for like, for the actual recording.

Yeah, but yeah, so that's the big thing on it.

It, it, the episode is, I mean, it's listenable.

Like I, I, I, I don't think I really responded to how bad it was at the time.

Like, it just sounded how all my recordings sounded to me when it was a field recording, as it were.

And this one was recorded with that Tascam.

And that's just the quality I was getting.

Which, you know, we're not at the worst audio quality yet.

I actually looked it up.

We are several episodes away.

In fact, we're seven episodes away from it.

Sam: Oh boy.

The fact that, you know, preparing myself, I'm going to start my countdown.

Case 1: So it's listenable.

I think we actually make some good points in it.

And it's only an hour long so hopefully listeners will enjoy this episode.

And like I said, hopefully I'll be able to clean it up a little bit.

But.

But yeah, this is the episode of another pass on Captain the First Avenger with Drew Lewandowski.

Sam, do you have anything else before we actually play the episode?

Sam: No, let's just do it.

Case 1: All right.

Let's just do.

Case: Foreign.

Drew: Welcome to Certain Point of Views, Another Pass podcast.

Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on itunes.

Just go to certainpov.com.

Case: Thank you for tuning in to another fast podcast.

I'm Case Aiken and today I'm joined by Andrew Lewandowski.

And today we are talking about Captain the First Avenger.

Drew: It's a very good film.

Case: Yes, it is.

That's actually most of my notes about this movie.

So were spitballing and discussing Marvel movies that we thought could use some work and then we have some perspective on.

And this one came up because it's often a movie that kind of is forgotten in the broader context.

It's not Winter Soldier, which everyone really loves and brings up every time they talk about, like, cool darker Marvel movies.

It's not the Avengers.

It's not, you know, it's not Thor Ragnarok, which is funny, or Guardians of the Galaxy, which has this hype.

It's just a solid movie that's in there somewhere.

Drew: Well, it's a basis.

It's a.

It's.

It's basically where everyone's going to have their start off, but they sometimes forget where they come from.

Where you take the Winter Soldier, you've already tied in many characters throughout different films.

This is basically where it all began.

Case: Yeah.

So I have this theory that the Captain America movies are unifying movies, that the reason they called this one the First Avenger is that it is actually a lead in to the Avengers.

It's not just a prequel set in the like in World War II.

And he just happens chronologically to be the first character.

I think that this movie ties together disparate elements that had shown up in other single character movies at that point.

Point.

And then launches us into the plot of the Avengers because we see the tesseract, which is that foreign or that alien kind of super science component.

Drew: Yep.

Case: You know, we.

It was first glimpsed in Thor, but.

But really it has the same sort of look as Thor's hammer and it has the same sort of science and magic kind of blurred lines thing going for it.

Drew: Well, that makes sense.

Yeah.

Case: But it's revealed in this movie that that is actually the basis for the arc reactor technology that Iron man uses.

So that explains how the super science of the energy, like the infinite energy component, goes.

It also highlights a super soldier using genetic engineering or, like, using this program which they talk about incredible Hulk.

So at this point, we've now tied in the three individual character arcs that lead into the Avengers movies with this one character.

He is a figure of super science, of a bioengineering kind of format that is launched into a war against an infinite energy format that is being derived.

Drew: From outer space with a mythical science platform.

Case: Right, Exactly.

And that's why, like the Tesseract, Ben is ultimately the same threat in the actual or the first Avengers movie.

And it's imperative that we have Captain America to understand how all these pieces fit together.

Drew: No, no, it makes sense.

What's nice, though, is that being the first film in his individual franchise for Captain America himself, rather than Iron man or Hulk.

The first film still has an Infinity Stone, which is just a subtle thing that where some of the rest of the characters throughout their films when they had their own startup, not necessarily having that tie in to where we are today with the Marvel movies.

Case: Yeah, I mean, this is the first time we see one of this.

We don't know it, but this is the first time.

And we see that it is possible to use the technology, or rather the crazy mythical nature of the Infinity Stones, in technological ways.

So that's there.

But, I mean, you can see this in other movies.

Winter Soldier is the first one post the original Avengers to tie back in elements of the world.

We have a Bruce Banner cameo and references to the Avengers in Iron Man 3, but it's not really.

And Thor 2 is kind off in its own space.

There's an illusory cameo by Captain America, but that's actually Loki.

They talk about the Avengers, but we don't actually see them.

And they don't play a part in the actual saving the day.

Case: It's Winter Soldier where we see SHIELD Helicarriers, where we see Black Widow as a major character.

It's a little weird that Hawkeye isn't there too, but sure, whatever.

You know, they talk about how Stark's technology is powering the helicarriers.

They talk about Stephen Strange.

They make references to this, like, larger world.

And that's how we get launched into, really, the second wave of Marvel, because the Avengers created the team, and that was the unifying factor.

But that was really the final stand of Phase one, like introducing these elements and putting them together.

Iron Man 3 and Thor 2, I would argue, are kind of epilogues to phase one.

Case: But it's winter Soldier that really launches the next era where HYDRA is a big threat out there, where things that we had been given as information are now being twisted and where they share a universe.

Drew: I think you're also, as you watching the film, you start questioning what you're seeing rather than just taking it for face value.

Where you take Captain America, everything that you see is at face value.

Captain's a good guy, Red Skull's the bad guy, Hydra's bad, and the US Government's good.

Now, as we move on and everything slowly changes over time, you realize that line gets really blurred.

You're not really noticing who's good, who's bad.

You just now have characters that you're following through and that you've now created a relationship with.

So now what is the definition of good and bad?

And now as we get to the Winter Soldier, is Iron man the good guy or is he a bad guy?

He's working for the government, so he's technically good.

Case: I think you mean Civil War or.

Drew: Sorry, Civil War.

Case: Civil War, yeah.

Next big switch.

Because at that point, not only have we revealed that people who have presented themselves as good were actually bad guys there, that there's wolves in sheep's clothing, that in.

In Civil War, we get to the point now where you can actually be a good guy and be opposed to another good guy, which is a thing that we hadn't also really seen because, like in Age of Ultron, while there was some friction with the team and there's like the Hulk being mind controlled to rage out and destroy stuff.

Like once Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, who are theoretically bad guys that have good motives, are shown the virtue of helping people and saving things.

Like, they switch sides.

Case: Like, they're on that side all of a sudden, you know, Civil War is then the point where you can really be on the same side of justice, but be on different sides of the law.

Drew: Yeah, because it all becomes real blurred at that point when you're in the middle of a.

Some sort of attack on a city or there's an interstellar war going on in a major metropolis.

Now it becomes kind of blurred as far as just making sure the safety of one or another is there.

But yeah, on a broader spectrum, you get starts to become real iffy.

Who.

Who's playing who and what role?

Case: And it's perfect that Captain America is that character.

Like, he is an absolute leader.

Like, if this was Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition, I would have him be a warlord.

Like, that's.

He's cool.

Like, it's not about him being the strongest.

Like, you know, the.

The.

The joke in DD is that a barbarian hits you with his ax.

A warlord hits you with his barbarian.

Yeah, like Captain America.

Yeah, sure, he can handle a fight, but the Hulk punches you.

Captain America hits you with his Hulk.

Drew: Yeah, it's true.

Case: It's perfect.

I mean, he's a character that is about teamwork.

Like, even in his own movies, it's always about teamwork.

There's this underlying current through all of his movies about brotherhood and friendship.

You know, like, there's, like, a little bit of a love story in each, but because it's a movie, and they always do some kind of love story, and it's nice and it's fine, but the true story is.

Is about, like, about brotherly love and.

Drew: About a camaraderie that it creates.

Case: Yeah, because, you know, there's the big through line of Bucky, and that's really emphasized in the next two movies, but this movie is where it starts.

And then there is the teamwork aspect.

Like, he has the Howling Commandos.

He has all these comrades that he joins up with.

In fact, one of the few weaknesses that I think this movie really has is the lack of emphasis on a couple of those relationships.

Drew: Oh.

Where they could have focused a little more time with the Commandos.

Where later on, you do have that kind of time that he spent with the Avengers or if he's spending it with, you know, other agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Case: Yeah.

Which we can get to in the sort of the bigger problem area.

But, like, right now, I just kind of want to talk about this movie, because rewatching this for this podcast was the first time I've seen it, I think, since Age of Ultron came out.

And, my God, is this movie a great movie.

No, it's a great movie.

It's fantastic.

Drew: It is one of those problems, though, that because it is a good movie, it's hard to really.

You can nitpick at it, but as a whole, it really is a good film.

Case: It's true.

So, like, over a certain point of view, Ben made a joke about this one being half a good movie.

And I think that he's full shit.

All right.

He.

He stands by the first half as being, like, really strong, and the second half is.

Is being bad, in his opinion.

I think the second half is weaker, but the first half is solid.

Setting up everything, like the conclusion of them, like, freeing all those soldiers and getting away like that and having it be a shot that's almost identical to the shot in the serial or, pardon me, in the montage.

And when he's working on the serial, that's such a perfect conclusion to a story arc.

Drew: Oh, yeah.

Case: If this was a pilot of a TV show, you'd end it right there.

Let's hear it for Captain America.

Drew: Well, he succeeded.

Yeah.

And everyone's happy and gives you that kind of good old fashioned America happy ending, at least to that point, and then you move on.

Case: Yeah, I mean, I will agree that I think the third act is kind of rushed and there's a few things they kind of have to do to make it wrap up neatly.

That, you know, if you had infinite time, if this was a TV show, you could have drawn out and it would have been awesome.

Drew: And that in that sense, that.

That's also one of my issues I had.

I didn't feel like there was enough conflict with the Red Skull in Captain America.

I feel like in this point, yeah, it was sort of rushed where you have these points where they were constantly missing each other.

Where had you gone back and had the time to fully develop this in a series, there would have been multiple interactions where you could see the high points and the low of both foe and your, your fighter kind of going back and forth.

And then the development of their individual characters, as well as, you know, Captain America's group and of course, Hydra.

You could actually have a lot more development within them, which all you have is henchmen and the doctor.

Case: Yeah, I mean, you know, you bring up Hydra, which.

Let's, let's talk about HYDRA for a second because they play a much bigger part in the Marvel universe than anyone realized in this movie.

I remember when the movie came out, Joe Johnston said that he was really excited to use HYDRA as opposed to Nazis because this was a Marvel World War II movie.

It wasn't just a World War II movie.

Drew: Right.

Case: And at the time I was like, okay, I kind of see that.

Like, it's cool.

We get super science Nazis and then we don't have to show as many shots of them looking like just German soldiers.

And yeah, you can make it a little more sanitized for an international audience.

And it made sense.

But then Winter Soldier comes out and all of a sudden you're like, oh, we needed that because we needed HYDRA to be a thing.

Because it's not just like, oh, well, you know, spies have infected the US Government.

Case 1: It's all of the implications of the.

Case: Marvel universe suddenly come to bear.

Drew: And now it's worldwide.

It wasn't something that was a sect anymore or maybe a terrorist group.

This has actually been infiltrated into all major governments at that point.

Case: Right.

Because with HYDRA being a thing that's out there that allows for real supervillains that are.

That allows for a lot of story arcs and rationale for things that we didn't have otherwise.

Like, it allows for justifications of funding and certain weapons or certain projects or.

Or even just certain people moving into certain places that you.

You really wouldn't get, or at least you'd have to scratch your head at if you didn't have that justification.

And I wonder, when they made this movie, did they know that is what they were dealing with?

Hydra.

Drew: That's.

See, that's one of those things where you want to sit there and say, no, it was just a coincidence.

But because of the size of this universe and how well it's been structured with a lot of things, it is possible.

And it's also one of those things that we might not have seen the Last of HYDRA in this sense.

It might be playing off if we have.

Case: I mean, we saw a lot in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

But it's hard to really say if that It's.

That's already kind of dubious canon as it is.

But no matter what, we've seen, like, echoes of HYDRA post.

Well, post both Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron.

You know, in Ant man, we have people who are like, Forma HYDRA people.

And that doesn't really matter if they're active HYDRA agents or just people who.

Drew: Were part of a sect of hydra.

Yeah.

Case: Commissioned by HYDRA to be in existence.

Like, the fact is that hydraulic.

The dangerous part about it is that it sets up malicious people influential positions with a broader plan.

And even if those people go off on their own direction, that doesn't mean that they weren't put into those spots without having that organization to do it.

Drew: But, yeah, that makes sense.

Case: I mean, looking at it now from the lens of someone who's seen Thor, Ragnarok and is anxiously awaiting Black Panther, like, this movie ties in so well to the universe as a whole, however.

Drew: Being still one of the very first films that was coming out.

Case: Yeah.

I mean, the callbacks in it, the.

The cool references, it all works so well.

And you can really feel the world that they're building in this movie in a way that, like, Incredible Hulk didn't have its shit together.

Drew: No, that's Hulk Smash.

You really don't have a whole lot of concept with that.

Case: And where Iron Man 2 is kind of struggling to get its shit together on that.

And like even later movies, even.

Drew: Even Iron Man 3 did not.

That was kind of a pull at that point with certain parts of the character and the development and the relationship and then where he was going with the design of the suits.

Case: Yeah, there's some specific thoughts about Iron Man 3, but I, I feel like that's not.

That gets away from that is one.

So, yeah, this is all sets.

I think that there are strengths that people often see as weaknesses in that movie, but that the larger context wasn't as well put together.

Whereas this movie fits seamlessly in the larger canon of Marvel comics.

Drew: No, it is.

It's.

At the end of the day, it's just a good movie.

Case: Yeah, it's.

It's a great movie.

Drew: A little biased.

Case: Yes, I am kind of a biased viewer on this one.

Okay.

I admit it.

And the nature of the character is very much like one that appeals to me.

Like he's good.

He's not challenged by that point.

Movie Bob, in his initial review of this movie described.

The cool part about it was that his arc happened before the movie even starts.

Like him becoming Captain America isn't about him becoming a good person.

Like that's a go to for a lot of movies.

Like Iron man is about a guy who's a douchebag becoming a good person.

Like seeing the consequences of his actions.

Drew: Right.

Case: Captain America is about a guy who's already a good guy being empowered to take his virtue and bring it to a broader world.

Drew: Correct.

Case: So, yeah, I'm a little biased, but that doesn't mean that there aren't key points here.

I mean, let's talk about that montage sequence, like the musical number.

Drew: Oh, he's going around to sell the war bonds.

Case: Yes.

It's a great sequence and it's a great sequence for some subtle reasons.

For one thing, we get to see him in a true to comics, Captain America outfit.

We get to have like this sort of context of the larger world and why he's so famous to the world.

Like why people know who he is beyond just being a soldier.

Drew: Right.

Case: We also get to see some subtle stuff like the.

We see him do the same routine a couple of times over the course of it.

And we get to see him be much better as a performer from start to finish.

Like in the first one, he has to read the script.

He's not really confident.

He's super strong.

Like he's innately good.

You know, as soon as he gains his super soldier powers.

He rushes in to save the day, stop a Nazi spy.

Like, stop.

You know, this whole, like, calamity run through the streets of Brooklyn, grab a car door to be a shield and.

Drew: Deflect bullets and save kids.

Case: Like, stage fright is a bigger issue for him.

Drew: Well, I mean, it's easy to dodge a bullet.

It's hard to stand in front of a crowd and talk.

Case: Yeah, that is.

And it's a skill he learns by the end of it.

He's very natural at it to the point where when he just, like, shows up to address people.

Like, in the breakout scene that follows immediately after, he's able to confidently be like, oh, yeah, I've knocked out Hitler, like, however many times.

Drew: Yeah.

Case: And this is important because later he is just a natural public speaker.

You know, that is the key thing for Winter Soldier, where he gives that whole speech about freedom and they're like, oh, was that just off the cuff or did you have that prepared?

Like, this is the sequence, probably more so than any other part of the movie, that teaches him to be Captain America.

Like, up until that point, he is a very good person.

And he's been given superpowers, right?

Yeah, sure.

They're meat and potato superpowers.

Like, it's.

I'm very strong.

I'm very fast.

I can heal from a bullet, like, but not, like, I'm invulnerable.

I can fly.

Drew: Yeah, you don't.

It's not one of the.

It's not a.

It's.

It's not a godlike aspect as much as it is a superhuman aspect.

Case: Yes.

I mean, they show some key things, like he picks up a motorcycle, no trouble with people sitting on it.

So we establish how strong he is.

But what we're really doing is showing, oh, yeah, he's a public figure, that the real power of Captain America is what he represents to other people around him.

Drew: Because he can actually set that mindset.

And that's where.

And he creates.

He is part of the populace.

At the end of the day, he is America.

Case: Yeah.

So he's the best of America.

He's the ideals of America.

Drew: Well, at that time, even.

Case: Even now, that's.

That's his contrast.

Like, he's always strongest as a man out of time, reflecting on the best morals.

And it's not that it's devoid of those imperfections at the time.

It's not like the good old days were perfect.

It's just that he represents a very pure version of it that has not been diluted.

Bosed with it because we do have spies in.

In this era.

We do have undercurrents of things.

Like he goes to a neighborhood shop that is right around the corner from where he grew up, and that's a government lab that's being used for like, super science and there's a gun under the counter and like that.

The kindly old lady is actually like a spy working for the US government.

So it's out there.

It just happens to be that he's seeing all the best of it.

Case: Like, he's the best guy for this job and is surrounded by the best people for this.

Drew: True.

There's also a good part of purity because he hasn't been.

He hasn't been broken down yet.

Case: Yeah, they're bullies.

They're bullies.

In his own company, when he's first being trained, there's Hodges, like the just generic douchebag Wilson sets up.

Like, Captain America's smart.

Like, we get to see that is a thing for him.

And we don't hearken enough on it, but he is a smart guy.

He's not Stark, who we also get.

I mean, again, this kind of ties all the Marvel movies together.

Howard Stark being a big figure is very important.

Drew: Oh, yeah.

Case: And the fact that he's in this movie and it's a character.

Not only is he a mentioned character.

Drew: He'S one we've seen well throughout the series.

He's in the First Avenger.

He's in Ant Man.

He's in Iron Man 2.

Case: Iron Man 1 and 2.

Drew: Oh, 1 and 2.

Case: One is only in, like, shots of him.

But like.

Drew: And Civil War.

Case: Yes, and Civil War.

So we get a lot of the character.

He's an important figure.

And this movie is the one where we really get to see him be very Tony esque, you know, like, if we only got this movie, you would still feel like you got something of an Iron man team up with Captain America because of how much like Tony Howard is.

Drew: Oh, yeah, he's still.

He's still the arrogant, rich douchebag.

Case: Absolutely.

And frankly, that's one of my criticisms.

So why don't we get into that?

I think that the movie, after the halfway point, which is, I think we can agree, is when he gets back from saving the soldiers.

I think the movie rushes to the end.

It's got a lot of scenes it wants to do, but we get a montage of him fighting hydraulic and that's cool.

We get to see a few other big scenes, but I think they've got a lot more story they want to tell in that time and they are forced to compress it to get to.

To get to the end, to get to him being dethawed in the future.

Drew: Unfortunately, that's the thing though.

You have to take it.

It's World War II, so you're compressing almost three years of war into 35 minutes.

Case: Yes.

I would have liked, because this is important later, to see a little bit more with him and Howard because we get a slightly antagonistic relationship at the beginning.

Howard is the rich boy who is good with ladies.

These are all things that.

That Steve is not.

Howard is very smart and arrogant and at first kind of dismisses, you know, Captain America.

He.

He makes a joke that Captain America wouldn't have noticed this thing about the HYDRA power cells he found and then.

But by the end, we get the idea that he really respects Captain America, that he really.

And we are later informed that Howard Stark, you know, treasured his memories of being friends with Steve Rogers.

That Steve Rogers really influenced him.

Case: And I think that really, if we got more of that, they probably would have revealed that sort of his, like, bend towards being like a little bit more of a.

Like a Walt Disney figure is in part inspired by him learning about just how good a person really can be and also how important it is to the rest of the world to have figures that are like that.

Drew: Right.

Case: You know, Walt Disney made.

It was famous for.

Even though he smoked, he would never allow himself to be shown smoking in any of his, like, film reels or stills or anything like that.

Drew: So it was the perception of the crowd seeing him.

Case: Yeah, it's this Persona thing.

And I think that Howard learns that after knowing Captain America, like, we get that vibe that he's that kind of character.

Drew: I can see that.

Case: And so it would have been nice because that's a tension for the relationship between Tony and Steve.

Like, that Tony sees Steve as being like the.

The friend and the.

This like, distracting factor that his father had that prevented him from being a good father to him postly.

Drew: I mean, that.

That's, that's.

That's one perception on that.

I also feel that Tony was also a little more of the genius rebellious type, so that he would still would have gone against his father no matter what.

Case: Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I'm saying this is a perception thing, not an actual thing for it.

Because likewise, Steve should be perceiving Tony as being like the arrogant, unredeemed son of his friend.

Drew: Oh, you could definitely tell that.

And actually, I think that shows up especially in the first Avengers.

Case 1: Oh, yeah.

Case: It's certainly a.

Informs their decisions.

You know, in Civil War, he makes a reference to knowing Howard in his, like, young gallivanting days.

And like, Tony's immediately annoyed by it.

And like, that's every time the two of them are discussed their relationship with one another.

It's about how Tony is annoyed that Howard was so close with.

Or like that his father was so close with.

With Steve and that they just don't have that same relationship.

They.

There's this weird friction.

And I think that I would have liked a little bit more just to.

Just towards the end of the relationship to have Howard.

Because we get the scene at the end of the movie where Howard's like, we're gonna keep looking.

Yeah, we have to keep looking.

We have to find my friend.

Drew: Right.

Case: But we don't get that one middle scene that we're ending at the point he's just friends.

Drew: Yeah.

Case: You see them starting to respect each other, but we don't see that moment of them like, treasuring each other's friendship.

Drew: Right.

Case: And I think we do need that.

Drew: That would have been a.

That would have been a great connection point in the middle.

But then you.

Your film has now reached the two and a half hour mark because it's.

Case: It's a problem.

And we knew.

Because we knew we had to have Bucky.

We knew that we had to set that whole thing up.

Yep.

It probably could have waited.

I mean, it's.

It's a fine reason to drive forward some of the later stories that Bucky died and that's how like it.

Drew: I mean, that was.

Also the train scene could.

Did not have to be as long as it is.

I think that's one of those things where they create more action than needed to because you already getting those single action shots throughout with the.

With.

Case: With the group.

All right, let me.

Let me give you my pitch.

First act, exactly what we get, or rather first half.

Exactly.

We get.

The end point of the first half, I would say, is when they're like, let's hear it for Captain America.

If this was the pilot of the Captain America TV show, that would be the end of the pilot.

It's about an hour and 15 minutes in roughly somewhere in that ballpark.

So go there and then instead of jumping straight to the.

He's getting a medal from whomever.

And then that'll sequence.

I would actually put a little bit of a.

Another like hint at this being kind of like a classic serial, like a.

Case: An old World War II thing where they start Showing a like footage of like Captain America after this whole thing is being honored at this like event.

And then like cuts the stand where he's supposed to like come out and like be honored and then go from like brainy sepia tone footage to the Stan Lee cameo that we get right there where he doesn't actually show up and he's actually off like fighting still.

Drew: In the European theater, like trying to.

Case: Like put together his team.

The Howling Commander.

Drew: Yeah.

Case: And all that.

But actually open it with like an intermission or it's like.

And now a brief message like kind of thing.

Kind of like, oh well, the old.

Drew: V for Victory or World at War or something where they were giving you the propaganda.

Case: Yeah, like I, I think like Seven Samurai where there's like an actual intermission little screen.

I think that could be an interesting like break point because it's there.

Might as well like play.

Drew: Play with the concept for what it was.

Case: So hang a lampshade on it.

You know, like it's there.

Drew: But that would have been a funny perception.

I would not hadn't even thought about that until you brought that up.

That actually would have been a funny break between the two because all you're doing is just putting in filler.

And of course you're talking the two propaganda machine, which was huge at the time.

Case: And here's a key detail.

This is the point where he goes from being a figure in those serials to being the real deal.

And so this is actually the bridge that we get subtly by having him go from.

He just did like.

Oh, he really did that kind of stuff.

Like he really knocked out Hitler.

Drew: Like that comic book wasn't just a comic book.

It was really what was happening.

Case: Yes.

Drew: He was just selling the comic book.

Case: Go from him finally proving that it's not just the.

Not just propaganda.

He actually did save all these soldiers and he just faced Red Skull and like, you know, looks went behind enemy lines.

Like, you know, it's so perfect that he like jumps out of a plane behind enemy lines like paratroops in which is such like an iconic World War II kind of thing.

And then goes and saves the day like single handedly.

It's the only time he does anything that's like that big single handed, like big hero moment.

Case: Then remind us that he is a pop culture figure and then bridge into him being an actual hero on the war and just drive it hard where yeah, you got to do the montage, like establish that he's all over the place and he's hitting all these spots in the map and you get the Natalie Dormer cameo.

And you know, like, I, I think that's a little weird, but sure, it.

Whatever.

Like, and Haley Owl is so awesome.

And you know, I love Agent Carter as a character and the stuff they did with her is great.

So.

Sure, let's keep that.

But let's figure out a way to get Zola that is separate from the train sequence.

Because the train sequence looks a lot like the stuff at the end.

Drew: Which is it.

Case: That storming the goddamn base is one of my problems.

Because he storms the base, he does this whole sequence, he gets fake captured so he can be brought up to that room with the Red Skull, a room that we've already seen.

It's up in the Alps, same looking place as the train sequence.

And then they just fly or like they zip line in.

But he doesn't do anything to make that scene worthwhile.

He doesn't have like a tracker.

He doesn't have like.

He didn't like, lower their shields.

They, in fact, he alerted them that he is there and that they have forces around which you would think I would put them on higher alert, not lower alert.

It's not like they just captured Captain America.

And I get it that they're like, oh, you're so cocky and arrogant.

Case: You think that you can save the day by yourself, but Captain doesn't.

And like, I get the line.

And it's sort of like, oh, Americans.

You think you won the war by yourself when actually you need allies.

Ha.

But.

But you could also have a similar scene where he's on the train fighting by himself because all the other guys aren't on it.

Or like, they're on.

Yeah, they're all the way.

Drew: Yeah, they're all a different portion of the train.

Case: It's separated.

Like, let's say they're on the back end of the train.

They get on their cart, gets like separated from the rest of train, and Cap rides the thing by himself, having just lost Bucky into the Red Skull space.

Drew: That would have made much more sense as.

As far as continuity is concerned.

It would make more sense.

Case: Little space beforehand.

Drew: You're talking, you're.

But that gives you that, what that 15 minute window where you could have.

Within 15 minutes, you could have five, three minute segments.

That would have a lot more description over the course of what, two to three years?

Case: Yeah, you could have set up some more stuff with Howard Stark and you could emphasize the friendship with Bucky, which we get.

But really Once.

Once the.

Once they're both out there as part of the Howling Commandos, we don't do that much of them.

Drew: No.

Because they're a side story.

And then it's unfortunate, but it is.

Case: Like, just drive that third act in deeper, like in the montage with them capturing Zola, and do it in a slightly different way.

You know, you don't need to have it be part of this train sequence, but it doesn't really matter how they catch them.

They just have to catch them.

So it can be part of all of these other missions that they're on, but have it be a different set piece than what looks like the third act set piece of, like, up in the mountains with all the shit going.

Drew: No, that makes sense.

The problem with the Howling Commandos, though, too, is because, you know as soon as this film ends, you will not see them.

The only other way that these guys actually have made a presence in the universe afterwards is at the museum for Captain America.

Case: Yeah, we get some stuff in Agent Carter and 80s of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Drew: But subtle things.

But these are all past references.

You're not really going to have any real information or any kind of input in.

So I think that's why you.

Case: Yeah, because the Howling Commanders are great.

I love that they put dumb Dugan in there.

Yeah, sure.

Like, he's.

He's what?

He is like Nick Fury.

And that's like, he's kind of just a character that traverses time.

But, like, to do a true classic, Dum Dugan, who has such a distinct look, like Nick Fury had that sort of, like, grizzled white man look like he's everyone's angry uncle.

Right.

Whatever you want to call them.

Drew: Yeah.

Case: So turning it to being Sam Jackson Fine.

Like, it's one indistinct look for another.

And by distinct, I mean, like, the eyepatch is the key detail there.

Drew: Like, that's the only separating point.

Case: He's seen some shit.

It doesn't really matter which version has seen some shit.

So go from that to, you know, Sam Jackson Fine.

Dum Dum Dugan, however, with the bowler and the crazy mustache, all that.

That's a look that I would have been so mad if he looked at all different.

Drew: Well, you're going.

You're going from the late 30s into the early 40s.

There hasn't been the whole.

The whole transition of styles and has not really changed yet.

There isn't a big thing on fashion at that point.

That was the men's fashion for years and years.

Case: Well, what I'm saying is that if they, if he had been a modern character and they like gave him like a backwards baseball cap or just a.

Drew: Military out wouldn't really whatever.

Case: It would never have fit as well gave him.

Even if it's like a perfectly period appropriate update of the character, I don't think it would have looked right.

Like you need that crazy bowler, you need the crazy mustache and like the mountain shop, like that look was so perfect.

It was, it was such a great rendition of that character.

And the Helen Commandos are mostly known for like the Nick Fury and.

And all that sucks.

So sure, we can't do Nick Fury because we established him as being a modern character and we're not going to play around with the non aging serum.

Right.

For him, like with Cap, it's a different story, but for him we're not going to deal with it.

Drew: But for that point in time it worked out really well.

Case: Like Dum Dugan is a perfect stand in for it.

He is a strong enough presence that him and Fury kind of compete with each other without being distinct enough in terms of their.

Their large like the larger aesthetic.

So I'd rather put them in different eras and have him there.

It's great.

Drew: Another positive point to the film.

Case: Yeah, it's.

Yeah.

I mean there's a lot of positive like God, Hugo Weaving as Gretzko.

He is so damn good.

His look is perfect.

Drew: I think he's one of the.

He's one of those guys that embodies a character.

I kind of feel like where Gary Oldman is a little older in his career now.

Hugo Weaving has that right now where he can put in the next 1012 films and has that opportunity to really become the character sometimes.

Case: Yeah.

Now, I mean this movie is now six years old.

So I don't want to like make it sound like he's completely in the prime of his life.

He's been doing a lot of or he did a lot of stuff up until this point.

I don't know if he could do another superhero movie without at least like putting a nod him to him getting a bit older.

But at the time he was perfect.

And I think that, you know, if we got more Red Skull in other media, he would be one of the most enduring Marvel villains.

I don't think he's as charming as Loki, which is why Loki now what, four movies in.

Yeah.

Drew: Oh wait, what?

Case: So he's in all three Thors.

He's then also in the first Avengers.

And has he been in anything else?

Drew: Why is he titter Eve.

Well, he's going to be infinity War Seconds five, which will be his.

Case: Fifth, but currently he's been in.

Drew: Okay.

And he.

Case: Resto has only been in one.

Yeah, but I think he was a strong candidate in that one.

Case 1: You know, he.

Case: He has a hooked to allow him to come back in that he gets sucked away.

Which was a hint at what the Tesseract really was.

You know, that it's the Space Gym.

Drew: But I feel like that just left that door open so wide for him to come back at some point, but.

Case: Not so wide that it's required because he looks like he's melting away.

He could have very well died.

It's also been a lot of years.

It.

I won't be upset if they never bring him back, but it is always funny.

Like, I joked when we did the.

Another pass on Age of Ultron that like, oh, my pitch and you know, pitch was Ultron is actually that they brought back the consciousness of Red Skull, put him in the body there.

Drew: Oh, that could have been.

Oh, yeah, I could totally see that.

Case: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Case: It totally dilutes the character and makes it completely different.

Drew: Yeah.

No, I.

I feel like there is going to be an opportunity at some point where you will have a revitalized, somehow reanimated Red Skull character.

Maybe not the same.

Maybe it's something that'll be saved.

Just like the Doctor was where it was something where the technology at the time was able to save some sort of maybe perception of who he was psychologically.

But down the road, it is something that's going to pop up.

Case: Yeah.

Except, like, Harnab Zola, like, his.

His character in the comics is that, like, his intelligence has been transferred into, like, a robot body thing with, like, the face on his chest.

Yeah.

Drew: And the camera for the head.

Case: Yeah.

Like, the whole thing is like, that was perfect.

And they're even hinting at, in this movie when the first time we see him, his face is on a view screen, like in his.

He's actually like, looking into it.

Like that microphone or magnifying the old camera.

Yeah, yeah.

That old camera with, like, magnifying lens kind of thing going on.

Yeah, yeah.

It's.

This movie is so well cast.

You know, I don't think we talked about Chris Evans in terms of casting, but since we're kind of talking about.

Drew: Well, there in itself, there's something that's kind of funny.

You have a guy who's played in multiple comic book movies.

Yeah.

Case: He's known for comic book movies.

Drew: And that's and he's.

And I think it was one of those where he finally found his character, which you don't want to be known for only one character in one movie that you ever played because then that kind of destroys your career to a certain extent.

Thankfully, he's done the films while doing Marvel and that have been very successful.

Like Snowpiercer was one of my favorites.

Case: So yeah, it's funny because like with like the first two with the Iron man and Incredible Hulk, they went with big name stars, you know, Ed Norton and Robert Downey Jr.

They're huge.

And then with Thor, they went with Chris Hemsworth, who I knew only as being that guy who was in Star Trek in the first sequence.

Like, you know he's Kirk's dad.

Drew: Yeah.

Case: And then you get asked Chris Evans, who is in the mill, like, he's not a long story career.

But when I heard his name, I was like, I know who he is.

People were taught.

I heard people talk about him as an actor beforehand.

Just like off to the side.

And I'd be like, yeah, I know that actor is.

I've seen him in stuff.

Now again, my wheelhouse is comic books and nerd stuff.

And he had been in all the several comic book or comic book esque movies at this point.

He had psychically moved guns around and also shot fire from his hands.

Drew: Yeah, sure.

Case: Not to mention that not another teen movie is an extremely quotable movie.

Drew: He, he's definitely put his time in the different comic book universes per se.

But I think this was one of those times where when they did the casting, they were like, well, we're going to see how this is.

Obviously he's making that jump.

And I do remember him getting a lot of criticism when he first started being going, you're the Human Torch.

No one's going to see you as Captain America.

But he bulked up.

He brought in the character, he brought in the presence and he did a great job.

Case: Which is funny because he was so good as the Human Torch too.

He was my favorite part.

Drew: Yeah, he was a cocky little brother.

Case: Yeah, he was perfect in that.

So that just shows how good an actor he is at doing these types of roles of various types of roles.

But such a perfect casting choice.

Stanley Tucci.

Oh, as a professor.

Drew: That was right.

Case: Like stunt casting maybe, but great stunt casting.

And Haley Abbell is just fantastic.

And I love every time they bring her back for a thing.

It's great.

The age makeup in Winter Soldier's a little weird.

Drew: It's a Bit much, but it's.

Case: It's fine.

Like, I'm just happy to have her.

I'm happy to have all these characters.

Drew: Right.

Case: Every time they use any of the people in this movie, like Tommy Lee Jones, they didn't need to explain one goddamn thing about Tommy Lee Jones's character.

Because by casting Tommy Lee Jones in that part, you knew everything you needed to know.

The only times he needed anything from him were when he behaved in a manner that was slightly different than what you'd expect, where he listens to reason and is a fan of science.

Like, you're like, oh, okay, cool.

This is everything I hope for in some sort of military figure.

Yeah, it was perfect.

Drew: Like, somebody get this kid a sandwich.

Case: Gone on to be fantastic.

Like, when this movie came out, I only knew him from Hot Tub Time Machine, and he has really wowed me in everything since.

And then this movie.

He's really good in the parlor.

You know, there's a lot of, like, smaller people throughout.

Like, all the Howling Commandos are actors I recognize rewatching this.

Jenna Coleman from Doctor who is Bucky's date when they go to the World's.

Drew: Fair or to the Starkix.

Case: Pardon me.

Drew: Yeah, when they went through.

And then.

Why can't.

I think she is actually there when Cap gets his shield.

She's the female secretary who pulls him in for the kiss scene.

Case: Natalie Dorman.

Drew: Natalie Dorman.

Yep.

Yeah.

No, if you go through and look through the casting, there's just a numerous amount of actors who are in there, if not but for a few moments, but still make key points throughout the film.

Case: And sure, some like Natalie Dormer in this, like, Jenna Coleman, like, you know, these are actors who would go on to do a lot of things that we know them from and hadn't done that yet.

Drew: Yeah.

Case: But the.

The sheer scale, like, Hugo Weaving is a.

Is a huge actor to put in this movie.

Like, that's not to she.

All these are big names, relatively speaking, so it's.

It's just very nice.

Like, everything is so well fleshed out.

Drew: And I think that's another thing, is that even though you have big names, not all of them were the focal point as the.

As the main character of this film.

They were just characters that kind of melded together to make the film great.

Case: Yeah.

Like, this is a good balance movie.

Like the first Thor movie.

You almost kind of feel bad for Hemsworth because he's on screen all the time with, like, really big names.

Drew: Oh, yeah.

Case: He's the smallest actor in most of these Ironically, like not.

Drew: Yeah, so.

So, so in a film full of gods, he's the only demigod.

Case: Yeah.

Like, well, he's like on stage, Anthony Hopkins, like Natalie Portman had not won the.

The Oscar just yet for Black Swan, but it was about.

Drew: She was about to.

Case: And Stone Skarsgard, like, you know, it's.

Drew: The list goes on.

Case: Yeah.

And he has risen to it.

But I think in that movie, like, he.

He didn't quite have the star power.

No, he's the charm and the humor and like, you love him, but he's not quite there yet in terms of just raw.

Just like, oh, shit.

This guy is like, he walks in the room, all eyes are on him.

Aside from naturally all acts should be on him because he's a six something God in the real world.

Drew: So.

And I.

But, and, but it's funny because that's something that a lot of people may not be thinking of.

Where you go in there go, oh, well, you know, comparing his character now to when that film also came out.

You're right.

You walked into a room where every other character that you were working with, every other actor or actress has such a long sheet and has such a great resume that it is.

It can be kind of daunting in those.

In those tasks.

Case: So this movie's great.

Drew: Yeah, no, it is.

It's a great movie and it's.

And it's hard at the end of the day.

You can.

You can sit there and nitpick and probably make subtle improvements throughout the film.

But as.

As one of the very first Avenger films, this has a great setup, a great platform, and it continuously has points within other films down the line that still come back and point to it.

Case: Yeah.

Here is my, like, final pitch on how to handle this movie.

First act exactly the same.

Do the little like movie serial kind of interim at the middle part to sort of like set up the.

We're leaving the propaganda era of the movie into the real deeds era.

Stretch out that actual war montage sequence a little bit.

Have it emphasize that he's hitting Hydra bases a little bit more.

You know, we're already getting all those scenes and it's great.

And we get to see him like, doing these like classic Captain America things, but do a little bit more to set up his relationship with the other commandos, with Bucky and then with Howard Stark.

Those would all just be nice things to hit.

Case: Then have the train sequence instead of being where they capture Zola, which is important, but have move that a little bit sooner or rather as part of.

Drew: The like the final sequence.

Case: Well, no, have Zola's capture be like when they as part or brought at a conclusion of this whole series of sequences where they're like saving the day.

Don't have the Bucky Death be part of that.

Have the Bucky death be the lead in to him going into the Red Skull base.

Drew: Oh, yeah.

Well, that's got to be the catalyst that pushes him over the edge.

Case: Well, not just push him over the edge, but rather than him like doing this weird ruse of like trying to get into the Red Skulls base but for no reason, because they all just like zipline in anyway.

And there's no like.

Because there's no reason.

And I can't think of the.

Of a good reason.

Drew: It wasn't an information.

It wasn't for any other reason.

Case: It was going to let them capture me for no apparent reason.

Aside from that, it looks kind of like a classic movie thing anyway.

Drew: It was campy.

Case: Yeah.

So have it just be.

He rides the train into the base and then the Howling Commandos who have been separated from him at this point, let's say they're on the back end of the train.

The train, those cars get disconnected when Bucky gets killed.

So they have to like hoof it through the mountains.

And then they're bringing in assistance from Agent Carter and everyone, they come, they zipline in through, you know, the rest of the movie, then sort of plays out in the same way.

And then after this whole kind of weird sequence, I think they needed something to emphasize an autopilot that Capcore disabled.

Well, like the.

There's no autopilot, which is why you've got HYDRA soldiers piloting these suicide bombers.

But like, they're firing off at really weird times.

It's moving really quickly.

Drew: But it is one of this is.

This is one of the few nitpicky points where you get to the end, you're going, okay, you're.

You're forcing the end.

You've had this great dramatic play out where everything is followed gracefully and you're getting to the end.

And it's.

It's kamikaze pilots going to different cities where they're nowhere even close to where they're supposed to be when they come out of this major airline.

Case: It's actually a big thing we didn't talk about that needs to be just cut.

I think that the pilots on those different bombs lowers the stakes by having people be there.

It means that him knocking out everyone means that no bombs are being sent off to cities.

So it Just needs to make sure the plane doesn't go somewhere safely.

I mean he could also just land it.

Drew: You also could have gotten away with.

There's no.

Not even having those little suicide bombers.

Case: Where he's just saying he could have just.

Just been missiles.

Drew: Yeah.

Or just.

Or they could have just been men he was beating up in the plane that are.

Or that are just making the plane.

Case: Run a story beat put in there to give him something that didn't need to happen because they cut down on earlier scenes to make.

To make room for that.

I think it's an action beat that they put there that they could have just as easily had him knock out some people who are piloting the ship.

Drew: And then got to the Red Skull.

Case: And get to the Red Skull.

But the missiles are about to launch and he has to put the ship down because the bound to launch the.

Drew: Missiles were like just as much sense if not more.

Case: Raise the stakes at the end so that we.

By cutting out an action beat earlier because by having him knock out soldiers who were piloting these things, it means that those bombs weren't going to fight in their way to a city.

They were just going to be there.

Yeah.

And like worst case scenario they would have gone off at whatever place the plane went down.

But if it didn't go down in a populated area, there's no threat.

Drew: Yeah.

It became worthless.

Case: Put it in the water.

It should be that it was on autopilot and that he needed to because otherwise those missiles were going to go off and they would find their targets because they're programmed to find their targets.

And that cap couldn't be the one to like stop it because he's not Howard Stark.

He's not any of those things.

That's the one big change to the end that I would adjust it because I love the like the business casual look that Red Skull has at the end.

Like where he's wearing this like silken black like button down shirt with like, you know, it's just like a much more relaxed kind of Nazi.

Drew: Well he was having the wine before he got on the ship too.

Case: He's like, it's.

It's so good.

But yeah, they're definitely stressing it to get to you to him like going down in the water.

And they didn't realize that by putting in a couple action beats beforehand they kind of hurt themselves in terms of making that dramatic.

Drew: I think this is one of those subtle things where this is where it is.

That being the kamikaze versus the missiles.

It's One of those nitpicky points where you can.

Case: Like, it looks very classically like 1940s.

Kind of like, is any sci fi.

Drew: This seemed like a good idea at the time.

Case 1: Right.

Case: But it.

But by having it work that way, it lowered the stakes and thus that actual putting the plane down doesn't make as much sense as it should.

But then put the plane down and while we're in that, like, blackout or, you know, because they do like a little victory scene afterwards when we're in the blackout, which you think the movie's over.

And I debated, should this go actually as an end credit?

No, it needs to end the movie.

You think the movie's over.

Start having flashes to Bucky dying before he like, fully snaps awake.

Drew: Oh, really?

Case: Dream sequences.

Drew: Right.

Case: Because it doesn't matter how much time passes.

Like, it could be he's still.

It's still on 40s.

He still had a nightmare about his best friend died.

Drew: I know.

And he's still.

It's still on his conscious.

Case: And he should have woken up with like, Bucky, no.

Like a.

Because that's his classic line in the comics when he first wakes up, he wakes up screaming.

Bucky, no.

And don't do, you know, like an over the top, campy version of that.

But like, get just a little bit of a reference to it, you know, because it's.

It's just nice to put those, you know, comic references, those subtleties go a long way.

Yeah, as long as they're not out of place.

Like, I liked in Age of Ultron when it was Cat teaming up with Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye for a chunk of it.

Because that's the classic Cap Avengers team, you know, that's.

That is where it's like.

Is a really well done version of that.

Case: Like, don't do a reference for the sake of references, but put it in there for that where it, like, fits and it's nice and.

And you're set.

And that would have been a good spot to do it and then play out the rest of it the same way.

I love that his.

He runs from, like a sekia tone look to like a colorful look.

And the.

The path that he runs, he like, runs into the future.

Like, it's a consistent axis that is really interesting where.

Where running out into the modern world and, you know, so great that he walks into Times Square.

You know, so it's New York.

It's where he knows already, but it's the future of New York.

All of those things are great.

And like, I Said this movie is.

Is a great movie.

It's.

It's already great.

Case: I know some people don't love it quite as much, but they need to look at it in the bigger context.

Like, this movie is so perfect as being the fifth Marvel movie, as being the lead into the Avengers.

Drew: Right?

Well, no, it does.

It sets the platform.

And then you have.

This is one of those great points where Samuel Jackson makes his presence known again, and you're going, okay, you're really starting to pull your different parts of Chess pieces together because you're going to make a move soon.

Case: Yeah.

So that's kind of where I'm at with this.

I think.

I just love this movie so much.

Drew: It is.

And that's with other Marvel movies.

They're a lot easier to pick apart.

Case: Yeah.

I think ultimately my advice to anyone looking at this is to rewatch it, because looking at it from the context of now, what, 17 movies in is a very different experience than looking at it from the.

From the lens of Movie five.

Maybe the way to rewatch it is do the drinking game, the phase one drinking game of Fight, your favorite fifth, which is just finish off a Bottle, how to Eggsheet Heels.

But for.

By the time you finish Avengers or the way we did it, because we did it several times leading up to the Avengers coming out.

Right.

We went for, quote, unquote, Varsity.

Drew: Okay.

Case: I did a Leader of Jack Daniels while watching in chronological order.

So we started with Calf and then went through the others with Hulk being like, way at the end.

Because it's actually set at the same time as, like, Thor.

Drew: Whereas in the other films, they're all chronological.

Case: It actually goes, like, chronologically minus, like, the Thor flashbacks or like the prequel scene in Thor where it's like, first there were the giants, and we fought that.

You know that.

Drew: Yeah.

Case: So it goes Captain America and then Iron Man 1, 2, and then Thor and Hulk are kind of simultaneous.

Drew: Okay.

Case: And then Avengers.

Yeah, sir.

So he did that and then did that again when we, like, when Avengers came out.

Went to, like, one of the screenings where they did all five movies leading up to it.

Drew: Right.

Case: And likewise, you know, boozing, because what else are you going to do?

Yeah.

Drew: You're sitting there for 10 hours.

Case: And it's.

You can't really do that now with, like, the whole of Marvel movies, but you could back then.

Yeah.

And you can still with phases, although it's a little more of a.

A challenge to, like, keep the context.

Whereas at least with Phase one, it's like, here's the complete story leading up to the Avengers.

Drew: That makes it a lot easier.

Yeah.

Now you have to do weeks in advance in order to get this in the same continuity.

Case: Yeah.

But, yeah, I would just say go.

Go rewatch this movie and think about where we go in the Marvel U.

Like, this movie fits in so well and really doesn't get betrayed by later movies.

Like, I think some of the other.

Even movies that are good have to deal with some of, like the.

The changing landscape of movie making.

Like, you know, Guardians of Galaxy is a big shifting point because all of a sudden, oh, it's all funny, it's bright and colorful.

So we're not going to make movies quite the same way as we used to.

No.

Robert Downey Jr.

Is so popular, so we're going to try to emp him in specific ways.

Like, Captain America is never diminished by how strong.

Like, by the movies that come.

Come after it.

Case: In fact, it already was a movie that was better because of the context of the previous ones and made the movies before it better and continues to get better as more movies come out that call back to it, that have key references to it that fit so seamlessly in that world.

Drew: No, it is.

And that's because I think as a whole, his character still hasn't changed where others have made changes to their personal creed or their doctrine according to where they are in the storyline.

Case: But, yeah.

Yeah, I just love this movie.

Drew: Yeah, it's a good film.

Case: Drew, thank you for being here.

Drew: Thank you for having me.

Case: Is there anything you want to plug?

Drew: No, just actually working on Swiss Ninjas right now.

We're finalizing the script.

Anything that's put out there?

We're going to start some hashtags and just get some open ideas.

But we're kind of in the last few adaptations of the script.

You're smiling every time.

Case: Smiling so much.

Because it is a fun script that we're working.

Drew: Yeah.

So besides that.

No, that's about it.

Just don't be afraid to put some ideas out there, and then we'll put a hashtag out.

So if anyone's questioning or just trying to look in to see what this is, it's great to just start a.

Case: Little bit of a.

Well, yeah, no, thank you for referencing that.

I was keeping that a little closer to the vest, but.

All right.

If you guys want to find out more about Swiss Ninjas, when it ultimately becomes a little more finalized, you can find that at our website.

You can also check out our main show, certain pov, like where we do Nerd News.

You can check out Scruffy Nerfers where I DM a game with a bunch of fools across the Star wars universe.

You can find all this over@ certainpob.com Next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2, the Quickening and until then, stay Scruffy, my Nerf herders.

Drew: Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast.

Don't miss an episode.

Just subscribe and review the show on itunes.

Just go to certainpov.com.

Sam: Are you tired of watching your beloved characters being tortured by careless authors?

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Case: Reasonable and focus on how badly or well they were served by their authors.

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Sam: Find us on Spotify, itunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Case 1: And we're back.

Man, I cringe so much listening to that audio quality and I'm sorry for that.

Sam: You actually messaged me earlier today and you were like, oh, the audio.

Case: Yep.

Sam: So this is like a real feel.

Case 1: All right.

Case: So very sorry for these bonus episodes.

Case 1: We have two things that we talk about on that, which is Sam, your opinion of the episode and your opinion of the movie.

So where do you want to start on that?

Sam: Okay, so I am also incredibly biased when it comes to this film.

I know that you definitely said that in this episode case because I really enjoyed this movie and actually I rewatched this film because I knew I would enjoy it and I rewatched this film before I listened to the episode again.

Case 1: I did too.

And I normally don't like I normally don't rewatch.

I, I've re listened to the episode for our conversation about it.

But I normally don't need to re watch the movie because like, I mean for one thing I'm usually just stirring up the, the homework in the background anyway and it's mostly, you know, this is not my space to like do a new pitch about it.

It's a space for you to do a pitch because you weren't a host at the time and whatnot.

But Captain America, the First Avenger.

I fucking love that movie and I was going to rewatch that goddamn movie come hell or high water.

And that's rare.

That's rare.

That's really rare.

Sam: Yeah, I rewatched it.

I had such a good time watching it again.

It still really holds up.

The cast is still so good.

Like, the beats are really good.

You know, I.

And I genuinely, you know, I generally still agree with some of the things that were said on the podcast.

For instance, like, yes, the first half, the setup of this film is so remarkably well done that it.

It's so good, you know, like.

And so it does make the second half seem a little less strong, but just because it's so fucking strong, it's so perfect.

The setup of.

Of who.

Of who Steve is and his true qualities and what really makes him a hero, which is not the serum, it's, you know, that the serum is a tool.

Sam: But what makes him a hero is like, Steve's inner qualities himself and, you know, his relationship with Bucky and all this stuff.

Setting all of that stuff up is like, so tantamount, you know, and just so well done and like setting the scene and the.

And the characters and the relationship that they all have.

I will say I do agree with you about.

Once we get into it, I do wish there were a little more, but again, this movie was already pretty long.

I do wish there was some more, like, comradery moments and not just the bar, but I'm also the kind of person, when I read Lord of the Rings, it's about the Fireside chats for me.

It's like on the Journey chats, you know.

Case: Yeah.

Case 1: This is a movie that really could have used a director's cut or an extended edition more accurate or like a.

Sam: Couple of deleted scenes.

Just for me of the guys having fun together, I would have even, you know, if Disney plus existed and they did a short of one of their heists, it would have made me like, really happy.

Like one of their missions, like a different mission that you get, like just kind of in, you know, like inferred missions.

I think it would have been really great to actually have a, like a one off kind of episode, like a special hour long special of them just doing a one off just because I think that would have.

That would have been fun.

But I do think that the movie itself is just so well done.

Pretty good villain for the mcu.

Sam: Because I will argue that I do really think that a lot of the villains in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, especially as the universe goes on and there's more and more heroes and more characters to every movie, that sometimes the villains fall flat.

For me, they end up being More two dimensional.

So, like, you know, that's been an.

Case 1: Issue since the beginning.

I mean, like, even Iron Monger and Abomination, it's been difficult to, like, really make the villains stand out as well because, like, the.

The hook of the MCU has been, like, fairly accurate comic representations of the characters, like, of the protagonist.

But.

But the problem is, like, the.

The dynamism of the villains often comes from them being in enduring characters.

And so they're, like, very compressed in the movies that we're getting from them.

Yeah, they're generally speaking, just not as interesting.

I mean, for a while, the reputation was that they were all, like, evil inverted versions of the villain or of the heroes.

Case: Pardon me.

Case 1: And that changed over time, but it still took a while for them to get a reputation for, like, good villains.

Like, and even the ones that are considered, like, the high watermarks for it are either because of, like, really the performance of the actor.

I'm thinking of, like, hell in Ragnarok, or in the scenario of, like, Thanos where it's like, oh, well, they did a really good job at being what they were trying to be.

And those are.

Sam: He also had a lot more time to breathe, though, because he was involved in a few movies, you know, like.

Case: Oh, for sure.

Case 1: Yeah.

That's the thing.

Like, the villains are defeated and they don't really come back.

Like, like, we've had very few opportunities to have villains that have had cycles where they have come and had their origin story and then, like, had, you know, arcs to them beyond just like, the one villain arc for them.

Sam: Right.

Yeah.

Like, Lee Pace, I felt, was, like, totally misused.

He was perfectly.

But like, I was like, you're.

You were good at it.

But also, like, I just feel like it could have been more yearly.

Pace.

Case: Yeah.

Case 1: And what I will say here in Captain America the First Avenger is that at least we're just talking about a Nazi.

You know, we don't need a lot of setup and we're not looking for a heel face turn, you know, it's just a fucking Nazi.

Sam: Yeah, yeah.

Case 1: You know, so this is a villain that we can just accept being a villain, and it's a villain, and we're fine with it being a villain.

Sam: And then he does it so well.

Case 1: What's funny is that this episode comes out before Infinity War, and so we have seen the arcs of the Captain America movies, but we have not seen the coming back of the Red Skull that would actually happen in the ending of Phase Three.

Sam: Right.

I was wondering when this was Recorded Like I was like, what?

What?

Like, that's the other thing that is fun about these episodes is sometimes going back and just being like, oh, do you still agree with the things you said now that you know the things.

Case 1: You know, I feel pretty good about this one because like, the big difference is the like the Red Skull appearance, which was like honestly, them trying to like tie off a loose end, which was the Red Skull thing anyway.

Like, I don't think.

Sam: Right.

Case 1: I don't think that the.

The Infinity War or in game appearances of Red Skull dramatically change the interpretation of the character from this movie.

It's not like, yeah, Ragnarok I.

Or probably not Ragnarok.

Thor the Dark World stays as like one of my bottom tier Marvel movies.

But it has a lot going for it and has a lot of.

Of apology going on in Thor or in Avengers Endgame because they like revisit the Thor the Dark World sequences in there.

So this movie doesn't need additional context to be appreciated or shat upon the later movies that have added to it and changed the things about it.

Haven't really made big differences.

I mean, we're already dealing with a story that was set up to be a prequel.

Case 1: So it was already interpreted as being like, all right, well, Captain America in the present day is already going to be flashing back to these stories.

So like it.

We're just going to put the seeds that make sense to like set out there, you know, like setting out Zola and we're going to set out up Hydra.

You know, all that stuff.

Case: But.

Case 1: But the movie is not going to be radically made better because of context.

It's already great and the villain's already a bad dude and like doesn't.

Doesn't become like, it's weird that he's as neutral a party in the later movies.

And that sort of speaks to the fact that it was kind of just like again, like tying off the fan or you know, tying off the like the loose end of like, well, what happened to Red Skull?

So here we are talking about this one.

And man, looking at the pitch of this movie and the conversation that we have for it all, I really feel that we are doing our best here and really proving that you can do an episode about anything.

Case: Because I do think we make good.

Case 1: Cases for the couple small changes basically that the second half of the movie could be decompressed slightly.

I really want that bigger edit of that whole sequence instead of just a montage of the war.

Get.

Get real sequences of it all.

But you Know what?

Rewatching the movie today and appreciating several things that I've just never really noticed before, like Hodges being at.

At the.

The USO show that, like, Steve plays, like, after the mont.

The big musical montage when it cuts to him, like, playing to soldiers.

Like, Hodges, the bully from the sequence is there, and I had just noticed that he's there, and he's, like, one of the guys who, like, throws, like, fruit at Steve on stage.

Case 1: And then when Steve has successfully saved everyone and he's bringing back the, like, everyone, which, you know, I've always noticed is the exact shot that's from his, like, serials that he puts out and, like, the, you know, the publicity material and so forth.

Sam: Right.

Case 1: I noticed that Hodges comes out and sees Steve do it.

Sam: Yeah.

Case 1: Like, that.

There's specific coverage of Hodges.

It's like, oh, that's.

That's, like, a nice little arc for that character who is, like, someone I kind of just took for granted as being only in the New Jersey stuff at the Camp Lehigh material.

Sam: Yeah, there was definitely a lot of care that went into this film.

Definitely a lot of care that went into.

Also, like, they have so many.

And you guys did mention this in the.

In the episode, but there's just so many really awesome actors, even in roles that are, like, on screen for, like, five, ten minutes.

Like, it's like they pulled out all the stops for this.

For sure.

Case: Yeah.

Case 1: And some of those are, like, actors who would go on to become big.

Like the Natalie Dormer cameo, for example.

Sam: Yeah, she was already.

And she had already been on HBO for tudor, sure.

Case 1: But she just hadn't gotten quite as big as she would go on to be.

I mean, this was just like a step on her ascension in general, or they were actors who were cast specifically to be big, contrasting characters.

And even Chris Evans is the biggest.

I mean, he was the most famous Chris going into this all.

Sam: Yeah.

Case 1: Like, he had the most reputation.

Like, he was certainly.

Sam: I mean, I talked about it.

Case 1: He was on my radio.

Sam: I mean, come on.

Case: Yeah.

Case 1: Like, I talk about it.

Case: He was.

Case 1: He was super on my radar, as opposed to, like, Chris Hemsworth, who was just kind of on my radar.

Sam: Right.

Case 1: So he's not quite the, like, The Robert Downey Jr.

Scenario of, like, stunt casting for, like, Iron man, but he's.

He's more up there.

And then the supporting cast around him is, like, pretty big.

Stanley Tucci, Tommy Lee Jones, like, it's amazing stuff.

Really appreciating on my rewatch today.

Tommy Lee Jones, while driving the car gets to push the little red button, make it go really fast.

Like, yeah, really happy that we get all of those kind of meta references in this movie.

Like, yeah, this is a really well made movie with a lot of like little moments for everyone in it.

Like there.

There's arcs for everyone.

Like, I mean like, Bucky gets set up really well.

We even get like the.

The Winter Soldier, like nods of him being like pre brainwashed when he gets rescued the first time.

Case 1: And then like the Captain America turn that happens in the comics but doesn't happen in the mcu gets alluded to when he picks up the shield right before he gets like shot off the train.

Like, that's really cool.

Speaking of which, just like the reinvention of Bucky is amazing.

Like, yeah, just make Bucky his best friend and that, you know, I think it really gets capitalized on in the Winter Soldier, but here it gets set up so well.

Just fantastic.

And Bucky has a cool look that is comics faithful while at the same time realistic and oh my God, the Captain America uniform.

Yeah, we have to talk about the Captain America uniform.

Like the serial looks really good.

Or rather like the musical montage looks really good.

Like, yeah, it's straightforward.

Case 1: I mean, looks really good in the context of looking like, you know, the.

A serial style costume that the character would wear for.

For a movie back in the day.

But then the actual combat suit is so pitch perfect of like an adaptation of Captain America's uniform into a military uniform.

Sam: Like, yeah, it's really nice.

Case 1: Shit.

Sam: Just.

Just all.

Actually I would say that like all the props and all the costumes are in this movie are pretty good.

Case: Oh yeah.

Case 1: Red Skull looks so good.

Sam: Red Skull looks so good.

Case 1: And we call out his like wonderful like relaxed look that he has later in the movie where he's wearing like black silk.

Like it's really perfect.

Sam: I actually love that look and that might actually be my favorite look of the film.

No, there's just so many wonderful like moments.

This is like truly something to enjoy.

And I would say this since on our regular another past episodes, I have been giving a chores kind of rating to things.

This is absolutely a terrible movie to watch during chores because you will get no chores done.

Case: None.

Sam: You will definitely watch this.

So if you are doing laundry or you have to sweep your floor or you just have to pay some bills, this is not the movie to put on.

Okay?

This is not.

This is not the movie to put on.

Case 1: But you know what I will say, not a bad movie to watch.

With a kid.

Sam: Yeah, I agree with that.

Case 1: Only one sequence in this entire movie that I felt like particularly uncomfortable having Grace watch.

Understanding the fact that she doesn't know what like gunshots mean yet.

So like, I'm not that worried about her seeing like someone fire a gun that we don't like see someone like even like the cutaways like to someone like falling or whatever aren't like a big deal in this movie.

Like it's fairly tame.

Even though they have like Steve like firing a gun.

The only shot that I was like concerned about and thank God Grace was just like coloring at the time and didn't pay attention was when Red Skull like rips his face off.

Sam: Yeah, that.

That is actually pretty.

Yeah, because that's the kind of thing that nightmares are made of when you don't know.

It's movie magic.

Case 1: It's like when I was a kid and I saw the sequence from Batman 89 where Joker in human makeup or like regular person makeup has water splashed on his face and then has like the streaks of like white makeup on his face.

Yeah, that freaked me the fuck out.

Because then he like shoots off like the acid and it kind of like in my child brain thought like the water on his face, now it's melting everything.

Everything's terrible.

Sam: Yeah.

I mean, but here's the thing, Case.

You know, maybe.

Maybe you're doing it wrong because at my school they used to make us watch Return to Oz when it was raining on recess.

And I'm forever scarred by that.

And I turned out okay.

I think so.

I think maybe it's fine.

Well, maybe it's fine if your daughter sees the Red Skull's face ripple.

Case 1: Good news.

We are eventually going to get to Return to Oz.

Sam: Okay.

Totally fine.

Totally fine.

Totally.

A well adjusted adult.

The 80s movies did not mess my brain up at all.

Case 1: Hey, I'm going to throw this one out there because I don't know where else I'm going to do it.

And it's topical enough.

Guess what I just.

What did you just watch Captain America, Brave New World.

Sam: Did you?

Case 1: Yes.

And I put it on the lower end of my Marvel movies.

Sam: Interesting.

I did not.

I did not.

I actually enjoyed a lot of it.

I think that there's so many Marvel movies, I definitely wouldn't put it as low as like Thor.

Ragnarok.

No, not Ragnarok.

I'm sorry.

Dark World.

Case: I know.

Case 1: I did it too.

Sam: I did it too.

I think it's because like Ragnarok is so much fun.

To say.

I just want to say Thor Ragnarok all the time.

Ragnarok is fun.

Not the actual Ragnarok.

I don't mean to bring the end of the world to fight.

Case: Please.

Sam: We're very close to it.

I'm sorry if there is some weird universal power listening to me, please ignore me.

Not fun at all.

No.

I definitely think that there were things in the film that I would have done differently.

I know that they had to change a lot of the script.

Case 1: Yeah, that was the biggest thing for me.

Like, looking at the movie, it both felt cheap and, like, cut together in that way that, like, you could feel like Sabra as a character.

You know, like the.

The Israeli Black Widow that.

That is, like, she's a.

Was supposed to be a much bigger character.

And, like, the context of the world is the way the world is currently.

Sam: Yeah, yeah, I.

I know that.

Like, there was.

They cut down a lot, and they cut down a whole other actress.

They cut her out.

There was some, like, awkwardness and, you know, because of the geopolitical state of the world, and they kind of just like, made adjustments to the script as much as they could.

And I kind of feel bad for Anthony Mackie's captain because, you know, unfortunately, his cap has not gone a fair shake because this happened with his TV show.

They had to cut a whole part of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier line because originally they had a whole storyline with a global pandemic and governments hoarding medicine.

And then Covid hit and they had to change the entire thing and cut it up.

And that's why, like, this series is really, like, disjunctive.

Like, it.

Sam: Like, I remember one of my friends being like, but why.

Why this?

And why did that drop off?

And I'm like, oh, because there was a whole plot there with medicine and.

And a plague and the.

The habs hoarding all of the medicines and not giving the have nots in order to control them.

And they had to cut that because Covid.

And so I kind of feel bad because they.

There's these scripts that are being written to really challenge Status Quo, and they would be so interesting.

But every time the globe, the world goes, nope, we are not letting the guy from the Hurt Locker do this.

Case 1: Yeah, well, I mean, like.

Case: That'S kind.

Case 1: Of a challenge of doing a Captain America movie full stop.

Sam: You know, I agree with you, but Disney is never gonna.

You know, like, that's.

You know, this is part of the.

I think the challenge of filmmaking, which we've talked about in several of our episodes where, like, the truth is it takes so many people to make a film and an entire studio.

And unfortunately, it is still a business.

So people get a mess with things.

Case 1: There's corporate interests, and then there's time.

And those are both major factors in trying to do something that's like, a currently prescient political peace.

You know, like.

Like, as much as I love Winter Soldier, I.

I wouldn't say that it has the most nuanced politics.

Like, the fact of the matter is, like, it's, you know, an insurgent group that, like, infiltrates the government.

Like, it kind of absolves the US of a lot of the war crimes that I feel that we are actually guilty of.

Well, yeah, and, like, that's, you know, not the end of the world because the movie does make you question the US at the beginning of it all.

And that, like, that's a good starting point there.

But it does ultimately get to the point of, like, well, here's just a villain for you to kind of, like, hate.

Case 1: And like, Civil War has its own, like, complicated issues with.

In terms of, like, politics because it's trying to present a relatively complicated political and.

And moral issue.

Case: But it becomes.

Case 1: It comes down one person's side so clearly that it's difficult to really, like, give too much weight to the other side.

Sam: Right.

Yeah.

Case 1: And then getting into Brave New World, I think Brave New World just feels like, yeah, it.

Again, it's like, here's a mastermind that kind of takes out the sort of, like, the.

Case: The.

Case 1: Like, it would be interesting if they really spent more time, like, getting into the systems that allow it, a single entity, to become a dangerous actor the way that it does.

Like, I.

I feel like there are good moments in there and that's cool, but, like, it's just.

It feels a little cheap and it feels a little cut together.

And then I keep asking myself, well, why is it just one goddamn song that matters for this?

The spoiler mind control thing that happens in it.

Sam: Yeah, they.

They.

There is definitely.

There are definitely holes in the film.

There are definitely things that, like, could have been better explained.

And for all we know, they were in a.

Much in it.

You know, it's.

It's not just another pass that it needs it.

It needed to kind of.

They had already shot so much of it, unfortunately, and they just had to patch things together and kind of make it work.

And that's an unfortunate thing that happens.

Case 1: Well, that.

And then the other thing is that I honestly just like, I think Harrison Ford is doing as good a job as Harrison Ford could be doing in particular for this movie.

Like, whether.

Whether another actor of his age could do a better job is a different story.

But, like, it's suffering because we're missing William Hurt.

Sam: Fair.

Case 1: You know, like this movie is a sequel directly to the Incredible Hulk in a way that I don't fully understand why it's a Captain America movie.

And again, not.

Not a giant spoiler for anyone here because that's.

This is the stuff that's in the.

In the trailer here.

But.

But William Hurts arc made more sense if you're looking at the Incredible Hulk and then Civil War and then this.

But because they have to jump to then the casting being Harrison Ford.

And man, they could have at least done Sam Elliott who at least would then be picking up from the Eric Bana Hulk movie.

And then it's like sort of like coming in this like, weird circular kind of motion there.

Case: I don't.

Sam: I don't know.

But, you know, I think Harrison Ford is doing a great job being a cranky old man in his cranky old man years.

Case 1: He is.

He just doesn't feel angry enough.

Like, he feels grumpy.

Not angry.

Case: Yeah.

Case 1: I mean, it's just a situation where they're stuck because of the actors passing away.

And so they.

They.

The choice was they.

They recast with an actor who was already working with Disney stuff and, you know, is a name, like.

Is a huge name and has played a president before.

And like, you know, these.

All these things all fit from a, you know, from a headcanon standpoint.

It's is.

Is great.

I.

I just feel like we.

We lost something by having the continuity of the fury of that character.

Like, Like William Hurt did a really good job playing the kind of angry general and got to have scenes of being angry general and.

Sam: Right.

Case 1: You know, likewise.

I think Sam Elliott actually had some opportunity to.

To be that angry general.

This movie doesn't.

To really show a character be the Hulk hunter.

They just have to allude to a character being the Hulk hunter.

And it kind of sucks that we don't have a character that we got to.

Got the chance to see be the Hulk hunter.

And that.

That's the bummer there because we need that hawk in.

In politics, like the somehow being president.

Sam: Yeah.

Case 1: To be.

Sam: I.

I see what you're saying.

You're saying that at the point that we come in on Harrison Ford, he is already in a state where he's trying to control himself and without the extra context of him being a hothead before and the Hulk hunter before.

Like, if you were unaware that this is the same character bridging it just doesn't really feel genuine to you.

Okay, I got you.

Case 1: Yeah.

Anyway, sorry, that's my digression about Captain America 4, which is.

Was just sort of like, funny that, like, I watched that the other night and then I needed the palate cleanser of this movie because this movie is so good.

Like, the First Avenger is so good.

And I.

This is not a.

A Steve versus Sam situation.

I think Anthony, Maggie does a great job in the part and, yeah, that's all fine.

Like, that's not the issue with that movie.

I think that this is just a movie that is telling more of a story.

I.

I think that Marcus and McFeely are really good writers.

That the.

The fact that the original three Captain America movies have a shared set of writers for all three allows them to drop a lot of stuff to build up and.

And really work.

Sam: Right.

Case 1: Yeah, a huge story.

Like, as much as Robert Downey Jr.

As Tony Stark kind of took out all the air in the room.

The Avengers, the phase sequence, like the Phase 3 saga, the Infinity Saga or whatever it's called, is a Captain America story.

It's Marcus and McFeely writing, starting with this movie, and then doing Captain Civil War or Winter Soldier and Civil War, and then going on and doing Infinity War in Endgame.

And you can really feel that through line is concentrated on this character down to the point that by the time we get to Endgame, the happy ending for Captain America is getting back to that kiss that he had with Peggy.

Sam: Right.

Case 1: You know, getting to that dance.

Sam: But I will say I do know people who hated that a lot.

Case 1: Sure.

Sam: But mostly people who loved the Captain Carter Show.

Mostly people that.

Mostly those people hated it because they felt that it negated Peggy's journey after him.

And the beauty of the show was watching her grow and mourn and get over him and have a life and be a person and be this independent spy.

And then you have the end of Cap and he goes back and he lives a life with her.

And that means what happened to her life that she lived before that?

And a lot of people have a big problem with that.

It's a huge community of people online who love Petty Carter and felt like that was a disjustice to her to make a man's world, have come a full circle moment and stole away her life and her husband.

Sam: Sorry, I would mention that because people were very upset about that.

Case 1: No, it's fair.

I will say that the beauty of the way they handled it in Endgame is that because it's all branching timelines, that timeline still happens.

And so you don't actually take it away.

And so that's sort of like what's beautiful about it all is that, like, everything happens because Cap goes back and makes every version of reality great.

Because Cap goes back through time.

They don't tell us that explicitly, but they just sort of hint that it could happen.

Cap going and making perfect versions, all the timelines.

Anyway, yeah, I feel like we have covered a lot of what we had to say about Captain the First Avenger because it's a really good movie.

It didn't need an episode unto itself.

We just wanted to talk about it because it's a fun movie to rewatch.

Case 1: And I rewatched it for every time I have watched or we've talked about it on any of our shows.

We forced a live episode of Men of Steel to talk about it over there.

Just because, hey, it was a really fun Fourth of July episode.

Because why not?

Sam: Yeah, Superman have a lot in common.

Case 1: Yeah, absolutely.

Like, I.

I think that.

I think that Steve Rogers in the MCU is the best representation of the.

The Superman Persona we've gotten so far as of April 22, 2025, just yada.

Sam: Fair enough.

Yeah, yeah.

Put the disclaimer in.

I like it.

Case 1: Throwing that one out there.

Anyway, getting to the housekeeping that we do on these bonus episodes.

This is our app.

App episode.

Talking about Captain the First Avenger.

We on the last one talked about the Hobbit trilogy.

And next time, we are talking about Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

Sam: Oh, boy.

I wonder how that's gonna hold up.

I'm gonna rewatch it.

Just.

Case 1: Oh, yeah, I might, actually.

It's been a while since I've seen that movie.

Sam: It's been a really long time since I've watched it.

And I feel like those.

All of those films, all those Kevin Smith films are so.

They're like time capsules.

And I wonder how adult like Sam, like, far into the future right now, adult Sam would feel about those films now.

Case 1: Right.

I am curious about this one because I was disappointed with it relative to the previous Kevin Smith movie when it came out.

I was a huge fan of his Jersey trilogy and Dogma, so that'll be interesting.

It is a Jeffisode, so we will be dealing with, generally speaking, good audio quality and with good rapport, because Jeff and I have a great rapport.

So that's always fun to do.

Meanwhile, looking at the main show, we are.

So the most recent episode when this dropped will be Alien Resurrection.

Resurrection.

And coming up after that is Godzilla.

Sam: King of the Monsters is my excited Godzilla noise.

Sorry.

Yeah, sorry, everyone out there.

Case 1: So those are both some really fun episodes.

We're doing a monster kick at the moment between those two.

No particular reason.

They just ended up kind of happening that way.

Or rather Alien Resurrection happened because we recorded it when Alien Romulus came out.

But.

But that had nothing to do with our release schedule.

And so we just put it out when we did.

And Godzilla, King of the Monsters, likewise.

I think we recorded it not too long after Godzilla X Kong made it to home video.

Sam: Yeah, maybe.

Listen, I'm always up for listening to someone tell us about their opinions on the Godzilla movie.

I.

So it's the one time I'm very much in for monsters.

Not so much the alien stuff guys like, not so much that.

Case 1: So those are some fun ones.

So outside of that, Sam, what have you got going on?

Sam: You know, you can find me at another pass or at our another pass.

At another pass.

And then other than that, I'm actually probably going to watch Captain America again because it was really good.

And then if you have any complaints, you can find ksat.

Case 1: Well, you can find me on the Blueski Aiken.

Or more importantly, you can find me on the Discord server where you can interact with all of us from certain pov.

I have some fun news that I might as well drop here.

We've got two new shows joining the network.

We've got Long Live the Legion, which is my friend Jim and Jay's Legion of Superheroes podcast.

So they are doing retrospectives currently.

I mean, it's all in the Legion of Superheroes.

They've done like character retrospectives and they've done sort of era retrospectives, basically.

It is a similar kind of vibe to Men of Steel, but it's for the Legion of Superheroes specifically.

So great vibe over there.

Check that one out.

And then we have issues which for those of you familiar with.

Well, this show, because I always run an ad for it.

Case 1: It's Keith's comic book show.

It's the.

Sam: It's.

Case 1: It's the semi weekly roundup of all the comic books that came out.

And I'm super excited because Keith has been a super huge supporter of the network and has run ads for us tons of times.

Even on.

We have issues, even though it has been technically not a part of certain point of view.

Yeah, just super excited to finally get it under the banner because Keith's awesome and has been a guest on all my shows and just love him.

Good lad.

Anyway, so on that note.

Sam: Stay scruffy, Nerf Hurners.

Case 1: And we're done.

Case: All right, Josue, let's go through our new comic day stack.

We have a lot to review.

Sam: I know.

Drew: Maybe we've gone too far.

Case: Well, let's see.

Marvel, of course.

Dc.

I got Image, Dark Horse, Black Mask, Boom.

Idw.

Aftershock, Vault, of course.

Mad Cave Pony, Valiant, Scout, Magma, Behemoth.

Drew: Wow, that's a lot.

Sam: Oh.

Case: All we need now is a name for our show.

We need a name for a show about reviewing comic books every week.

Something clever.

The not too clever, like a pun.

Drew: It's kind of cheesy.

Case: Yeah.

Something that seems funny at first, but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision.

Drew: A few dozen episodes in.

Yeah, we'll think of something.

Case: Join Keith and Osway for we have Issues.

A weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week, available on Geek Elite Media and wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Sam: So what's Swiss Ninjas anyway?

Case: Certainpov.

Com.