Exploring the science of strangeness and the line between subjective experience and objective reality.

This is Neon Galactic.

I'm James Falk.

Thanks for joining us.

For decades, the UFO phenomenon has teased and baffled the brightest human minds, dancing along the edge between perception and reality to addle our collective capacity for discernment.

A brave a few from the scientific community, the legendary hidden college so often referenced by Jacques Valet, have plied these troubling waters to confront and analyze anomalies which threatened to upend all we thought we knew about the universe.

Now, after recent revelations from the US government and media projects documenting the phenomenon's concrete reality, there are more researchers than ever working to untangle this great mystery.

Is this the beginning of a paradigm?

If So, what comes next?

Our guest today, Jim Segala, is one such pioneer, working to simultaneously invent and perfect a science that may well dismantle old thought regimes and tired ontologies.

He's been made rather famous through his appearances on cable television shows from Utah's Uinta Valley, at Skinwalker and Blind Frog Ranches.

And he's done great work and helping the world confront and understand the nature of this strangeness.

We'll explore his career, his thoughts on the nature and power of UFOs and other exceptional occurrences, and the work he's done to produce hard data on a moving scientific target.

In particular, we'll explore the high.

We'll explore the system Sigala has developed to correlate signals in the environment with the subjective encounters experiencers report with the phenomenon.

It's an effort that could concretize what has long been an ephemeral mode of transformative personal experience.

It's an absolute honor to have him on my show.

Welcome, Jim.

Thank you very much for having me.

I'm really excited to talk to your audience and fill them in on what's been going on.

Yeah, so I was disappointed.

I think it was season 2, when you didn't show up on Skin Walker, The Secret of Skin Walker Ranch.

To me, you seem like the most rational voice that I was hearing, the least excitable, but also very curious.

But I understand that things life got in the way, you know, in terms of your return.

But you've been working and you've continued your work to try and penetrate all of this strangeness.

I guess I'd like to start with just sort of, you know, you're a scientist and you've gone into a, you know, an area of focus that a lot of people reject offhandedly.

What drew you in to covering anomalies in general, and how has it been in terms of being an operator in that space when a lot of the world thinks it's how come?

Well, it does interest because when I started out with this, this question that came up, This is why are people having experiences and then at the same time getting injuries that are recordable in the medical field that we were going to the doctor, they were, they were having, they were having Mris and CTS and having real, real injuries occurred to them while they were having these very profound experiences.

So that got me started on a path.

I worked for a Research Institute headed by Hal Putoff, which is a pretty famous scientist in the field.

And he's always looked at very fringy type of things.

And I worked with him for, you know, probably 10 years.

And one of the one of the paths that he sent myself on along with a couple other scientists is that trying to answer the question, why are these people actually walking away with injuries after having these experiences?

So we sat on that path and it was always that whole idea is that if something is actually causing these injuries, why are people having lesions and, and you know, subcutaneous, you know, damage to their, to their body and nosebleeds and headaches and all these things while they're having the experiences, Is this something that is being manifest from the outside that is causing these things or is this psychosomatic where they're actually causing these things?

So that was the first question.

How put to us when he formed the team that can I think was like 2017 and he said go out there, I have 50 different medical records from people that have reported to have this happen to them.

I mean, these are actual medical records from physicians and go out there, figure this out, see if you can get some kind of indication, some kind of answer.

So that started me on that path.

And as I delve more and more into it and saw more and more of these people coming forward and having these experiences.

And then, you know, you'd hear hear the narratives from the experience and then you would see their medical reports.

You kind of get the idea that it's not pathological in nature.

This is something that's actually happened to them that they really for the most part, don't have much control over.

You know, this is coming to them.

They're almost like a receiver, a sync that's receiving this, this kind of, you know, I don't want to call it communication, but it could be some form of energy or intellectual energy that's entering them, that's leading a mark, a medical mark that, you know, is recordable in in in a medical sense.

So, you know, like I said, this is this is what set me on that path.

And the more you see these things, the more intriguing it gets in, you know, as things develop, you know, more and more people are, you know, coming forward and getting interested and you start talking to other scientists and getting them interested.

And it just becomes, you know, it's just amazing thing.

It's it's, it builds on itself and it just snowballs.

Yeah, it's, I mean, I wasn't in the scientific part of it, but like you're describing the rabbit hole kind of effect where you start to peer into this thing and you get drawn in.

And I mean, whatever it is, whatever aspect you're trying to research, it grabs hold of you about those that, I mean, I don't know how much you can talk about the records from the experience.

There's obviously HIPAA rules and all that.

But I wonder, can you give us a sense of what kind of injuries you were encountering and if there were any patterns that you noticed in terms of was it mostly brain injuries or was it like from, you know, ambient radiation?

What were you?

What were you encountering?

Well, that was interesting.

So when we first set out, we didn't really know what the modalities would be.

How are these people, You know, is it a fungal?

Is it bacterial?

Is it viral?

Is it something like that?

So you start looking at all those indicators, all the vectors, like how did it get into the person's body?

What's going on with that?

And you start seeing patterns.

Of course, you know, after you do, you know, over 50 of these things, you start saying, wow, that's as interesting.

You know, it seems that every time somebody has something, it's very akin to kind of like an autoimmune type of thing where this is the, this is the way that we kind of looked at is that a person is having an experience, has an experience, something enters their body.

And don't forget energy and, and waveforms and things like that is still a vector, still stuff entering your body.

Immune system says, wait a minute, what the hell is this?

You know, I can't, you know, and this is not something that's normal and starts attacking.

It starts, you know, doing what the immune system is programmed to do, right Programs.

It's programmed to protect your body.

So it fires up and it starts attacking things.

So well, you know, sometimes there's nothing there to attack.

It's just some outside energy.

So it always expresses itself and it looks like autoimmune type of responses that come out of these people.

And then of course advantages right away when you know like the white cells, you're looking around saying I've got nothing to do.

So it all dissipates and goes away.

So a lot of times what happens is that people enter the hospital, they'll go into like an emergency type of situation.

Will they be given a lot of antibiotics and things like that?

And then they would get better very, very quickly.

And then of course, the doctors say, OK, you're done.

You know, we don't know what the hell it was, but whatever it was went away.

So we're happy with that.

So that's when we kind of pick our heads up and say, oh, wait a minute, what the heck's going on here?

So that's when we get interested in the records.

And so there is this pattern of people, you know, getting these lesions, they're getting these fibrosis, they're getting all of the kind of things, you know, look like their, their legs would swell up, their, their muscles would ache.

Their they would get, you know, headaches and ear aches and all sorts of these types of things and and very profound.

I mean, not, not just minor.

And then what you do is, you know, you start looking at this and they all relate to your body attacking itself, trying to figure out what just entered it to make it had this experience.

It's interesting, I mean for the autoimmune sort of flare up is also something that happens with trauma, right?

Like doesn't trauma sometimes kick off autoimmune responses and lead to sometimes disorders in life?

Your body is or you're programmed to basically protect itself through its immune system.

Yeah.

Now, were you guys able to identify what the particular type of energy was that was penetrating or was it different in different cases?

Sometimes.

So sometimes we would be lucky enough, you know, unfortunately the person wasn't very lucky to to have this, but we were lucky enough to have really good acute data and do CT scans and be able to take blood samples and things like that.

And, you know, we always found that there was some form of high level radiation that's that caused a lot of this, you know, so it wasn't something that they ate, wasn't something that they ingested through, you know, the normal ways of getting it was some kind of energy that came from the outside, left the mark on the skin or, you know, went deeper into the body and caused some internal type of ramifications to their, their cell cell structure.

But it always seemed that it, it always seemed that it came from the, the high energy radiation type of, of things.

So if you know, then you could speculate if you, if you want to let yourself, you know, kind of go off and speculate, you say, well, whatever it was, it might not have been a like a weapon type of thing, but whatever it was carrying that energy was interpreted by this by our cellular network as some form of energy.

You know, it might have been just simple communications that was coming into us.

But you know, our bodies react in a certain way.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I mean, how, how common across the experiencer set do you think this is?

Is this, I mean, is it, you know, the majority of experiencers who have sort of encountered types of, you know, experiences to use the same word are, are having this phenomenon or is it just, you know, a select few?

I mean, is it a part of it or the whole thing, do you think?

I think a large portion of them and that's why when we set out, you know, so how basically set us down afterwards and said, you know, if you have a commonality of this type of thing, you're seeing a lot of radiation, you're seeing a lot of this, you're seeing, you know, this type of thing, why don't you try to catch it in the act?

And that's when we started building equipment to look at this.

And it was interesting is that when you remember the Havana syndrome, all those, you know, unfortunate people that got here out hurt and, you know, they first thought it was acoustics.

And then, you know, National Academy of Science came back out two years later and said, you know, we feel that it was an energy bee.

You know, they said they, they published an enormous report.

You know, of course, those guys are, I mean, they're really good at doing science and making sure everything is fine.

So they, you know, there, there's a, in fact, I on one of my websites, I have a, or on my website, I have that report that they published that anybody can take a look at it.

And they said we feel there was some type of energy beam, not as high as we thought, but you know, still a high energy radiation beam that caused most of the Havana Syndrome type of things.

And then when we looked at the patients that we were, we were viewing a lot of the things that they noticed that we didn't notice.

Actually we found in some of the patients that we were actually doing.

So there was a lot of correlation between what we're the, you know, the 50 or so patients we were looking at and the Havana Syndrome people.

And that's why one of the and DS that were working with us actually helped the the State Department and the people looking at the Havana Syndrome people are cases with their, their work.

So there was a there was a little overlap there.

So anyway, so it was very interesting to see that there was a lot of this type of injury that not only we found, but very professional of other, you know, other agencies, you know, the National Academy of Sciences, you know, very profound agency.

So they found the same thing.

And then there was another report that was put out.

I don't know who sponsored it, but they claimed that they had actually, you know, even more evidence that it was a radiation beam that caused their stuff.

And it was, you know, very similar to what we were seeing in our, you know, in our cases.

You have any sense?

I mean, I know I've read some of the testimony from patients of the Havana Syndrome and they don't really report high strangeness necessarily.

But has there been a, a thorough examination of, you know, their testimony to see if there is any kind of experience that is beyond what they've kind of described in their, you know, public reports?

Yeah, So I mean, everybody kind of, you know, these are all government employees, of course.

And so they're very, very nervous about revealing anything that's out of the ordinary because they don't want to be put into that.

You know, like, Oh my God, this case.

People are crazy, especially when the.

Government seems ready to sweep them aside anyway and be like.

So and they, you know, I think they did it right to take them seriously.

They left it on the OK.

I've got some medical issues here.

I might be hallucinating.

I might be going, you know, having all of these experiences that I can't explain.

But I'm going to leave those aside.

Most of the people didn't really report that right away.

You know, now they're actually coming out of the woodwork and saying, OK, yeah, you know, when this is happening, I was starting to hallucinate.

I was starting to see things.

I mean, you have to realize when your brain gets energy that is not used to, a lot of your neurons start firing.

Things are happening inside of your brain that are not normal or the normal procedures.

So yeah, you're going to see some very strange things.

So it thank God it didn't get to the point where people were put into that.

OK, these people are just, you know, hallucinating or something like that.

It was strictly a medical thing.

So that was thank God that happened.

But our patients, you know, when you do a, when you do an analysis of them and you interview them and you ask them these questions, they start revealing these things.

When they're in a very comfortable, protected situation, they start saying, yeah, you know, I was starting to see things that I never saw.

I start talking to people that were not in the room and, you know, they were giving me information I never had before.

So you start seeing those patterns, not just medically, but in the narrative, you start seeing very profound patterns of what these people were actually experiencing.

Yeah, You know, you can't help but wonder what the, but I mean, obviously it sounds like there's a ray of radiation that's, you know, affecting these people.

Is that the what's the purpose of the?

Are they trying to communicate?

Is something trying to communicate with these people and the and the ray is the vector for that?

Or is that an overall technology for sort of penetrating into people's consciousness and different uses kind of produce different experiential effects?

So you have different populations reporting kinds of different things.

There's just a obviously a million questions that come up.

Yeah.

And, and what's what's great is that what we've done now is we've expanded out just from a few people, maybe 50 people out to hundreds and hundreds of people now.

And then we're starting to get.

So we've got thousands and thousands of narratives from people that have these experiences all over the world.

And we had, you know, these men, we have devices that are actually housed at their location or, you know, they either wear them on their heads or Yeah, the Mupas devices.

Yeah.

Yeah, they have.

The link in the description so people can go and get.

Oh, excellent.

OK.

And and what you find out is that a lot of these people, what they're experiencing is that they're, they seem to be gathering more information than when they're experienced, you know, as their experience started.

So when they come out of these experiences, they actually feel that they've gathered information.

So then you say, well, if that's the case, then it must be some kind of communication.

This energy is some kind of communication.

And all the energy is maybe a carrier wave, right?

It's just the thing that gets it to you.

But once it gets to you, of course it leaves a medical mark because it's energy.

But the information is interpreted by your brain.

So, you know, that begs the question, I mean, have we been doing this all, you know, for millions of years and we just have this innate ability.

Just we don't really.

Our subconscious is the thing that's actually couldn't understand it.

Our forebrain doesn't have any idea what's going on.

All we say is, Oh my God.

You know, they get a lot of the narratives, like I got anxious.

I didn't, I, I thought I was being watched.

But then again, I felt that somebody was telling me something.

So as you look at these narratives, it, it becomes very interesting and there's, you know, the, the patterns that you can see coming out of this.

Yeah.

Well, and like you say, I mean, if this that's the case and we've been having this sort of interaction for a long, long time, how much is the information has shaped who we who we've become, what inspiration has been supplied?

Like what?

And then, of course, you get into motive and who might be the agent behind so much of this.

If there is an agent, which it sounds like there might be fascinating questions, of course.

I mean, that's why we're we're here.

Yeah.

That's a good point.

That's a good point.

I mean, have we as a society change because there is something actually communicating with us, making us go in directions?

It's very possible and now we're just becoming aware of it.

Exactly right.

Yeah, I find that deeply fascinating.

Of course, you know the the population subset that you started with, were they primarily military experiencers or?

No, yeah, they were more people that went out and worked on.

You know, a lot of people initially the hell had were Skinwalker people because this is well below before the skinwalker people that own it now.

This is back in Bigelow time when Bob Bigelow had it and he was doing scientific experiments.

Hal Puthoff was his science advisor.

So he was integral in the mix and he had all, you know, a lot to say about what was going on.

So a lot of the data came from people that were in that suspicious area that were interacting with the property and the land and things like that.

So, but then we realized that this is just a small subset.

I mean, Skinwalker Ranch is great, but it doesn't have, you know, it doesn't have the statistics you need to actually do some good science.

So we started stepping out, looking at other places in the new at the basin, going out all over the United States.

And we said, wait a minute, you know, all over the world.

And we started to realize that we can gather a ton of data from the, you know, just just being globally aware of what's going on and, and pulling from all sorts of places.

But you know what, what we're, you know, we found out is that there was a lot of rich data out there.

It's just as the, as the numbers increase, of course, it's kind of a, you know, it just becomes more and more daunting to get the information back to you.

And that's why we set up systems and we we had actually things that were made it so we can get all this information in a seamless way.

Can you describe for us what MUFAS actually does physically?

What is?

What is the system collect when it suddenly understands that there's a thing going on?

Yeah, so that's a, you know, so basically back probably 2017, 2018, we realized that there was some external vector, some energy that was a present in their environment.

What just before they had an experience which prompted them to have the experience.

So we said, OK, let's catch that in the act.

We said it might be radiation, but it might be a metric change.

You know, it could be the space-time metric is getting wiggled around or so we don't know.

We didn't know.

So they said, let's have a broad.

Spectrum of sensors that we were going to look at.

So actually the Mupa started out as a as a, as a little device that basically just stayed around the person recorded constantly of all the things we can think of that might be it.

And then let them give us their narratives on a day-to-day basis and say, well, you know, I, you know, today I've had anxious today I was euphoric, you know, and then look at that and try to match or correlate when they claim to have their experiences in what the environment was doing.

And so they don't know what the environment, what's getting recorded, they're just.

They have no idea.

So that's.

Good, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that because.

They're not getting triggered by an alarm or something.

It's like, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's so you do a lot of scientific things, you know, so it's a double-blind and they, they, you know, they have the ability to know that they're being recorded, but they don't know what's being recorded.

And So what we do on the back end is that we're looking at it constantly and, and looking at different waveforms.

And in fact, I can show you some of the things that we collect and I can actually, if you don't mind if I can just share a screen.

Take it.

And.

So what, what I'm showing you here is a screen of the waveforms from a.

This is this is one of the Oh yeah, blind frog.

Well, there's blind.

We have a device right now in Black Frog Ranch that you can look at.

But this is one of our, our devices that actually that, you know, produces some interesting data.

So this is the kind of data we collect.

So for instance, this is the accelerometer data.

There's a, we look at this thing so that we have little, little AI agents that look at this thing and might, might be right here, like there's a blip here, for instance.

And then we can look at the magnometer and say, OK, well, there's a blip here over here.

So these are just, this is what this thing collects on a daily basis.

And, and what's really great about this thing is it sits there in the background and constantly just collects data, you know, all, all throughout the day and it's marrying it.

And then of course, the people come in and they put these, these incidences.

And so they'll actually say, you know, I, I looked outside my bedroom, I saw an egg shaped craft and they could show a picture and they could do all this kind of stuff.

And when we take this kind of data and match it to what's going on in their, their space, and we've got, you know, tons of different.

So we've got, you know, we could do temperature, pressure, humidity, gas, We can look at all of these types of readings from like accelerometer, magnumometer, gyroscope, all these things.

Of course, this stuff is what the, the metric is, you know, the, our, our metric is what we live in, right?

So it, it might be that they're like, if some big energetic thing comes into our space, it might wiggle a little bit and you might get like a gyroscopic change or something like that.

And that's sexy.

That's down here.

And so these are all the sensors that you can have.

And then of course we have the radiation, we have Geiger counters, we have all these things we could monitor like the ultrasound type of things.

We can get imagery, we can look at biometric, which is like your heart rate, your movement, your muscle tremors and things like that.

These are all indicators that we record constantly on a daily basis, like every millisecond we'll do, we'll take a picture and then we'll marry it to these incidences that people put in here.

So we have all these incidents that, you know, there's, we have thousands and thousands of these incidences that people actually register on a daily basis.

And then we then correlate those two and then we let the people understand what they're seeing.

So we actually give the not alerts per SE, but we're giving them incidences that we, we will say, you know, at this point, you know, two weeks ago you claim to have this and this is the waveform.

And so it gives them the idea that there's something actually happening in Varmint and they can actually monitor and work with us on this.

So, and then we have like these discussion groups that other people can get involved and they can start, you know, talking like we have people that just go, well, that's a very active site.

There's somebody, something's going on at Blountford, France 'cause there's a really crazy readings.

I have no idea what's going on.

But anyway, that's, you know, out in Utah.

I'm not, I'm not there.

But then, you know, we have people that come in and they can they can add some narratives and look at this thing and, and look and kind of talk about this with other people.

You know, these are the kind of things that we do.

And then one of the interesting things if you look at some of the data that we've collected over the years and this is, you know, basically indicative of what we're saying.

So what what happens that people will give a narrative like for instance, this particular case, and this is actually a snapshot of a few cases that were pretty profound where, you know, we found some anomalies in the data that shouldn't be there.

And we then correlated that to something that they they found.

Like for instance, this one, there was somebody put a narrative in at the same time there was this enormous spike in electromagnetic radiation.

And they would we've, we've used that as a correlated point and actually use that as really good scientific data.

We've got hundreds and hundreds of these types of correlations where people have entered some type of narrative or some part of the day.

But then we go back and look at the day that we find out that there's an enormous amount of deviations in what we would consider normal waveforms.

So like this is microwave radiation.

This is the chlorometer data.

We have some more microwave radiation stuff, magnometer.

So this is a weird one where with you very periodically, like every couple hours, you get this big magnetic spike.

This is not something that people can do themselves.

I mean, this is something that had to be coming from the outside world.

But when and when we see him, it's, it's like it's incredible because at the same time they might be experiencing something, they might say, Oh my God, I just had a headache or I had an earache or, or, you know, I had some ringing in my ears, which is actually quite common.

So we have hundreds and hundreds of these very profound type of things that were happening to people.

You know, of course we have hundreds and hundreds of people that are out there that are actually have these things.

And you know, this is another one that was like incredible, like the gyroscopic.

I don't know how this could possibly happen, but you know, they would claim that they were, you know, they, they felt very strange at some point.

And, and we look at the data and there's this big jump in the data.

You know, this happened a few years ago.

But you know, these are all incidences that we recorded over the probably 8 years that we've been actually having this study and, you know, very, very strange thing.

So this is the kind of things that we look for and you know, we're basically developing scientific data based upon this.

Yeah.

Well, and it seems like it's answering the question of like so many people are always it's psychological.

Is it, you know, whatever you have the evidence to say that a lot of this is coming somehow from the environment.

Can you?

Is there?

Have you had abductions that happen to people while they've been wired up to these things?

Well, yeah, so we've had people that claim to have or I shouldn't say claim report having maybe not physical abductions, but when people say I've been abducted, there's kind of two ways you could think about that.

They've actually their consciousness have been abducted, meaning that their, their internal makeup, their you know what they're, they're thinking, you know, it's been maybe brought to some place where they felt they were no longer where they were.

They were at some very, very remote place.

And then there, the other one is a kind of the, they were physically abducted.

So most of the people report that they were just their consciousness has been abducted.

So that's a little bit different than most people say, you know, I got taken down to a crack.

But most that's that's kind of what abduction is kind of.

Yeah.

But I think that most of the people that are have been in the study, the hundreds of people that report these abductions is like, I felt that I left my body and, you know, I felt that I was someplace far, far away or I was talking to another group of people.

And it doesn't have to be now it they a lot of people claim that they talked to people way in the past or believe it or not way in the future.

You know, they talked to, they said they talked to people.

You know, I had conversations with people.

They might have verbal conversations, but they have, you know, conscious conversations with people that are that know a lot of things that they possibly couldn't know.

Yeah.

So it has to be something in the future.

And so on those instances, instances, did you see the sort of flowering?

And then, yeah, well, not always.

Don't forget in order to have really good scientific data, you really to have a correlation with it too.

So they can report that they have correlation or they might have like an abduction or they might have an experience, something like that.

But we don't find anything in the data that that is correlated.

So those are interesting 2 points, but they just don't match up enough.

It's when we get the match up that's for us because a very profound type of data point that we can, you know, do some good science on.

Yeah.

Are you seeing any one of these vectors being more pronounced in these events?

I mean, whether it's the electromagnetic or radiation, what are you most often seeing that correlates with strange expansions?

So believe it or not, we see a lot in gyroscope.

Gyroscope seems to be the one.

The gyroscope is the if you remember what a gyroscope is, gyroscope is the spinning, right?

It measures the spin.

If I can go back to this, it's so our our gyroscope.

I'm gonna pull this out of the way.

So am I still sharing?

You're not.

You just stopped if you.

Want I stopped?

I'm sorry.

Yeah.

It's all right.

So the gyroscope is down here.

So if you look at the gyroscope, it's actually this.

Yeah, it's the.

Well, this is the three axes XY and Z.

Let's.

See if I can get the blue all by itself.

So like for instance, this is the gyroscope.

See, that's interesting.

There was a accelerometer hit at the same time there's a gyroscopic hit.

That's interesting.

Something must be going on at Blindfrog Ranch.

But anyway, So what that means is that something is actually in the in the vicinity of this sensor that's in Utah right now, but it's twisting it, you know, momentarily, very, very short period of time.

It might jiggle the metric enough to actually 'cause this sensor to sense a little bit of a blip.

And actually that's a pretty significant blip too.

So that's atmospheric.

Though that's not like the machine.

Not atmospheric.

So it's metric.

It's like, it's like, it's hard to explain what the metric is.

It's like, you know, we live in a space that is very, very stiff.

But then like when gravity comes along, gravity actually changes the shape of things.

If you remember back when Einstein did all of the stuff he said that, you know, we have this, we had this, this thing around us that is actually part of this whole, you know, gravitational system.

And when you have a grav, when you have something high energy, it kind of moves that around a little bit.

Just like if you took the earth and you dropped it in some mag in, in the gravitational field.

It changes the way things were, you know, the changes the outlook a little bit.

So it's a wiggle in space-time.

Basically it's.

Exactly a wiggle in space-time.

So what you're seeing here, which is kind of strange right now blind frog Ratch is is getting a wiggle in space-time right at I don't know what time that was.

That was a few minutes ago.

So anyway, that's very interesting, but that's what we're seeing a lot of this where you get wiggles in the space-time metric and it could show up in the gyrospock.

The chopic was just spinning or the accelerometer, which is the actual, you know, the linear stuff.

So this is actually, you know, this is, this is what we look for.

Yeah.

Well, then that opens up all kinds of questions.

I mean, like if space-time is is, you know, sort of getting perturbed by the phenomenon, then that I mean opens up all kinds of doors as to what might be manifesting through that, you know?

Right.

What is that?

Yeah.

Was there information at at 11, whatever time that was 1150 that was significant that somebody received.

And then what we're doing is we're just seeing the outcome of that.

So we'll be interested to see if somebody actually reports that there was something going on there.

So and then like I said, we can look at the electromagnetic spectrum.

We have these real time plots of the electromagnetic spectrum where we can look at the different frequencies to see, you know, if it is it, it was in the one gigahertz, it's two gigahertz or whatever, whatever case may be.

So we're constantly looking at this data and streaming from and we have almost 500 devices out there in the world that are just constantly streaming.

We've got all these people that are sending us these narratives on a daily on, you know, minute by minute basis of, of what's going on.

Yeah, that is so cool, man.

So this is basically what the device does and it looks, I can give you an idea what it looks like.

So whoops.

So this is the device that acts.

This is the device that that that we have that people use.

And then there's another device, there's a watch that they actually can use, you know, if they want to wear a watch.

So this is what we call our mini, which basically just sits there on the, you know, whatever on the counter and just sits there and basically records all day long.

You just sent it up to the, up to the, the cloud so we can actually get the information from it.

So it's a small little device that people can get and send or they, you know, they either that or they get the watch and, you know, they're, they basically participate in the study and, you know, provide us with their narratives on a day-to-day basis.

Is this something people can sign up for or is this?

Yeah.

So just to well, actually they can get signed up just by coming to this site.

So there I have a little QR code here that people can click into or they can click on the link or they can actually type in this link and it brings them to this site.

And basically what we have is a person that so the study started probably about 2017 thousand 18 and one of the people, the participants of that 30 people that were in that first part of the study had a, you know, to the life changing event.

When they actually started participating in the study, you know, they were able to chronologically document what was going on.

Their family members were actually receiving a lot of support from other people in the study.

So they actually felt that they were actually benefited significantly.

They were having these very profound, very disturbing experiences that they were trying to contend with.

And because of the study, they felt that that really helped them.

So when the second phase of the study came up, they contacted me and said, look, we would like to fund whoever wants to come into the study because they, they, they themselves had such a great result from it that they said, look, you know, I want, I want other people to have this.

So they actually fund the study.

So people want to get in on the study.

They're, they basically doesn't really cost them anything.

All they have to do is just basically give us information.

We asked them to do a little survey work and here's the steps.

I mean, I think it's in here.

We have a little steps here on how you go about you.

You basically sign up, you take the survey, which is just a few questions.

You get a device and then, you know, basically you sit there and you give us some narratives and you participate in the study.

It's, you know, basically we've gone from a very small amount of people to, you know, we have almost over 100.

I think we just crossed the 300 bound the other day and you know, we had plans to go, you know, all the way up to as thousands if we can.

Yeah, that, I mean, it's, I can understand that if you're an experiencer and you've been trying to convince people that something's actually happening to you, and then suddenly you can substantiate that there's a physical change in the environment that is going on that's kicking off your, you know, reaction, that's got to be huge.

I mean, even for yourself.

Like, am I going crazy?

No, there's evidence that something is is actually happening and that could be probably transformative for folks.

So I just wanted to point out some other thing that, you know, it's one thing.

So there's two parts of this.

So for the for the experiencer, we know that there's a lot of experiencer out there.

We work with a lot of experiencers.

But what we're finding is that they're in a boat by themselves.

They're very, you know, they're, they're, they're kind of worried about, you know, people thinking what they are.

So we've, we've provided them with the ability to go out and talk to other experiencers that can chat with other experiencers about the data.

And then we've got this IA agent that allows them to ask, you know, any kind of questions, basically, you know, what kind of questions do you want to ask?

It's like, for instance, it's an AI agent that allows them to basically ask anything.

So like, for instance, like what's the most common UFO sighting?

And it'll give me answers.

You say, what does, let's see, what's another good question to ask?

Here's like, or the medical conditions most suffered by people and they can ask that question.

It'll, it takes a second, but it'll come back and say, OK, if you're an experiencer, here's what you can, you know, have, you know, this is the kind of thing.

So it gives the people the ability to help understand more about their, their individual condition just by being here.

They can ask any question they want.

You know, it's basically it's an AI chat room that is, or AI agent that was just designed specifically for experiencers.

And a lot of people get in here.

They add they, they're on there for hours and hours just, you know, investigating, talking to other people, you know, putting in these questions and, you know, really understanding things on their own terms.

So basically, this whole thing is designed to help provide experiencers with a grip on what's going on in their day-to-day lives so they can, you know, really contend with it.

Yeah, and become part of the community it seems.

It seems like, I mean I saw that there was like you can join up with a potentially a mentor to help you.

And then we have a, we have a mentor that we have experience for mentors to help them get through that.

So a lot of people are very anxious when they start having experiences.

Like for instance, there, there's some people that like, yeah, they, they, they, there's just always this like initial point or this trigger point where they start having these experiences and, and of course they get very, very anxious and they start reaching, you know, they have nobody to talk to.

So we have this ability, they can chat with other people that are been in it a while.

So we work a lot with the Reddit people.

They have, there's a couple of good Reddit channels, subreddits that these people are just amazingly, you know, they're very open and they're very supportive and they work with these people.

So you get an opportunity to chat with them.

You can chat with them one-on-one.

You can chat in a group or, you know, or have a zoom call with them kind of and get a little bit, you know, more comfortable with, you know, what's going on in their lives.

So that's part of, you know, when you join the study, you, you get all that, you know, you get access to all that information, plus, you know, you, you have the ability to go in there and, you know, basically, you know, so we've got this thing where, you know, if you people see something we can, they can comment on, they can, you know, they, they, they say, oh, that's an interesting waveform and they, and they write it down.

So we've got hundreds and hundreds or thousands of, of people that, that are commenting on the data, real time data.

Like they'll, I know there's some people that monitor the, the, this is the blind frog again.

So this is the blind frog.

They monitor these things constantly.

So.

You know, the people just, they never get off the site and they're just so interested in this.

But it gives them the ability to really start understanding what's going on in their lives and know that they're not alone.

Plus there's a lot of support for them out.

There.

Yeah.

I think that this is such vital work, man, Like leagues ahead of other efforts.

I think you, it's invaluable.

I'm sort of just flabbergasted by the progress that you're making.

It's like someone is sure that this is like, is it real?

Is it not?

Well, it is.

It just is.

Yeah.

You can point to things and say this, I mean, you have the evidence that something is going on, whether I mean, the cause is maybe you get to be determined, but there's actual effects going on that are making people go through these, you know, huge transformative moments and it.

And it got so important.

So there's a lot of organizations now that are looking into this.

There's a one particular big time university that is doing a very big effort into this that we're joining with them to bring all this data out.

So joining their data, our data and other data and basically saying, you know, you know, back in the old days, like, you know, older days, like the Jacques Valet days, it was like, OK, I'm going to gather this data, but it's all secretive and only the government can have it and say, OK, that that those days are gone.

If you're going to collect data about the public, you're going to, you're going to have to release it to the public.

So that's why we, we, we allow them.

So one of the, the organization that we're working with, the university we're working with is very, very big into getting this out to the public, letting them have access to their data and have them allow them to, you know, sift through it and do their own little personal research into it.

Yeah, and and hopefully spark a much bigger conversation about the nature of what we're in and how we can begin to sort of wrestle with the existential questions that arise out of all of this, which is huge.

I mean, to sort of bring it back to you went to Valley a little bit.

I mean you have a hotspot like that, whether it's a blind frog or Skinwalker ranch.

What do you think?

I mean, does that say something about those particular areas or is it just that people have noticed their?

Is there something in the environment that is sort of giving off signals that 'cause these things?

What's your insight on into that region since you've spent so much time, you know, kind of looking into it?

Well, it's kind of interesting that that region is so active and it's not just recently.

I mean, if you think about it, the Aztecs came and they populated the area.

They buried their valuables there, and they kept that a sacred area.

The Native Americans found that very, very euphoric.

So they they spend a lot of time there.

They worship the ground.

And you have to say, well, there's a reason for that.

I think there's a big reason for that because a lot of people visit that area and they walk away feeling a lot better than them when they went in.

And if so, if that is a society that can have that happen to them, Yeah, naturally they're going to stay there for a while because if you go there, it's horrible.

It's the it's like desert, It can't grow anything.

It's all, you know, the only thing you could maybe do is, you know, have cattle or things like that.

There's really it's very why would somebody wanted to go there unless there's something there that just made them feel good.

So, you know, people bury their, you know, their, their belongings there.

They have a lot of, you know, there's a lot of history there that were people spent, you know, generations there.

So and then you look at that and say, well, we're experiencing very strange things right now.

So I'm sure back then they were experiencing very strange things.

But they put it more, you know, when people try to rationalize what's going on, they, you know, they might they might attribute it to some religious thing or they might have some, some some higher, you know, some higher power.

So I mean, we're doing the exact same thing.

Exactly right.

We're just trying to put it within our frame of reference, which is.

Scientific.

Yeah, so I think the area has something about it that is very, very energetic and there's a lot of things going on.

But it's not the only place.

We found other places all over the world.

There's right now we're discovering places in Australia that are just amazing.

It's so, you know, when you do science, you want to have a really controllable scientific environment.

And it looks like we found a few like you went to Basin and it's amazing.

There's a couple places in Australia that are amazing.

There's a lot of places all over the world.

How are you finding them?

People contact, so people reach out and they say, you know, this is great.

You know, you went to base is great.

But I have an area that has all of this great things happening to it.

And so we look at it.

So there's some there's some places in Arizona.

There's a lot of in fact, Bigelow, I don't know if you know this.

Bigelow actually didn't just own Skinwalker.

He found a couple places.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Big Bian Skinwalker rent covered some of those those.

Spots so he found them and he sent these scientists to all these places.

So, you know, if they come out of the woodwork, you know, people, people will contact you.

They you know, how, how how puttop is a, you know, very well known people.

A lot of people contact him and say, look, you know, things are strange on my property.

They're doing this and they're explaining.

So, you know, at that time, you know, he would tell Bigelow.

Bigelow would then send a couple scientists out or researchers and and look at it and you know that just the the list just grows.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I want you to identify a place.

You can probably do some ethnographic research too, to look, see what the history has said about this spot.

And then suddenly you're finding all kinds of.

Things well, so and that's another thing that we do for the people that I, I can go back to my little thing here.

So we don't just have a few devices that we have a hundreds of devices out there.

And then what we allow the people to do is one of the things that we have public devices that are available like Blindfrog Ranch.

We have relative forest, we have, you know, just like all of these little Heselton Valley, we have it's all over the place and you can click on any one of these and then just basically monitor and you can just sit there and just monitor these things constantly.

And so this is Reynolds from forest.

I don't know what's going on there, but you know, maybe some, you know, I don't even know what time it is there, but you can monitor those.

So, you know, we've got those devices that are sitting there and then you can actually go in and, and, you know, talk to people.

There's nothing, nobody's actually talked about it yet.

But you know, people can look at the graphs and say, oh, wow, what the heck is that?

And they'll, you know, put their things in or think, you know, put their, put their narratives in.

So we've got stuff all over the world that people, you know, when you're part of the study, you can have access to all of these things.

Yeah, that's so amazing.

I have to ask.

I mean, the big question, of course, is you have all this evidence that something is happening within the environment and some of the things that are causing the reactions within the percipients could be natural, right?

I mean, they're things that sort of, you know, might naturally occur at some point.

But do you see agency behind what's happening to the experiencers?

Does it seem like from the patterns that you've collected that there is an ongoing effort by some, you know, agency entity or whatever to interact with folks and that's what this is?

Is there any way to get at that kind of insight based on this?

That's a great question and that's something, one of the big hypothesis that we have.

You know, of course, we don't just do science just without understanding what your hypothesis are.

One of them is that whatever this thing is, is an intelligent, it's an intelligent entity, some kind of sentient thing that's communicating.

So if you look at the narratives that come through and these narratives could be, you know, one or two sentences, or they could be like these multi, multi page dissertations, basically.

And when you sit through them and you use your LLMS and your AI agents and you pull out their, their sentiments and things like that, they're always a sense that they're talking to something with intelligence.

It's not just this, you know, old thing that they're they're they're having conversations with or they're having information from.

It's like they're actually talking or communicating with something that is intelligent enough to have some kind of information flow back and forth.

So they're actually feel that they're communicating with something.

And that's one of the biggest things that we're pulling out of this is that, you know, we don't know what this thing is, but we know it's not some natural phenomena that is just some random event that's coming from, you know, something that we just don't understand.

It's something that is interacting with these people.

Yeah, yeah, that's huge.

And I, yeah, the, the sense from the experience or community is I think very much points towards some kind of intelligence thing.

You get some, you know, people who are skeptical saying, well, maybe it's just an environmental effect that sort of ricochets in the brain and causes these sentiments.

But I think that part of what the ways that way that you can see through that is that the information that some folks receive is, you know, vertical.

You can like do something with it.

It's like somehow an insight rather than just being, you know, scrambled, you know, neurons.

It's like actually a message that has actionable intelligence within it.

So it seems like there's, you know, a mind behind it which.

Is so yeah.

And there's a lot of people that claim or a lot of people that document that they've actually been told something and they've been told it in a language that they didn't understand and they would write it down and then they would have to go research.

It's something that they would never have been able to, you know, read or whatever the so it's information that they just didn't have before.

So that seems to be something that's it's communicated from somebody that has a permission that they don't.

I one of the questions that I often love to dwell on is sort of the ontological implications of all of this.

I wondered that, you know, personally for you, how do you, I mean, maybe you don't because it's like you haven't gotten all the data in yet, but do you sometimes speculate for yourself on what this might be saying about the nature of things?

And you know what we're what are we in as the, you know, sort of what, what, what's our environment?

How does the universe work?

And what is this saying about it all?

Well, if it yeah.

So it's, you know, given, given the state of the technology today, what we can do here terrestrially, it doesn't seem to even come close to being able to do what this thing does.

Especially when you're talking, if you think about how many experiences there are, there's millions.

I mean, I heard one number was that there's almost 30% of the of the world of the population is has a experience or ability somebody that they they have experiences.

So that number is just profound for me.

And to have a technology that somebody on this Earth developed that does this just doesn't seem like it fits.

This has to be something way more evolved than we are.

So it definitely does point to some external extraterrestrial type of intelligence that is within our might not be here physically.

They these could be just probes that, you know, I spent a lot of time working with a couple scientists on, you know, what's the possible mechanisms for this communication?

It maybe they, you know, the speed of light travel is a real thing, but you can probe and you can send type like you know, you can send type of.

I don't even know how to classify it to make it believable, but you know, some type of feeler out there that actually has the ability to send information back and forth that we interpret it as as the experiences.

Is it that's another question I wanted to ask you about the experiencer sort of population.

Is the fact that they're receiving, you know, data or what what what they're going through?

Is it as a result of their biology, do you think, or is it just random chance that certain people get get contacted?

I mean, I know that Gary Nolan has talked about the Khadi Punaman in the brain that might have some draw for some of this stuff.

I mean, have you honed in on any patterns in terms of what's?

That's, that's what these surveys for.

So we asked people a survey.

We, we designed the survey specifically to understand what their makeup is, what their genetic makeup is, what's their Histology, what their, you know, families like, you know, what their environment is and trying to understand.

And then we know, of course, what their narratives are and what their data looks like.

And so we can kind of understand, you know, Gary's great because he's looking at the genetics of it.

He's actually going into the DNA and see because he has, you know, maybe 100 patients and he can actually get in there and do their DNA and do all that kind of stuff.

But then on our side, what we're doing is that we're taking the the data in a real time sense from these people and, and asking them, what is your demographics, what you know, what is your profession?

What's your family look like?

Did your parents have this ability?

Did they have experiences?

And and things like that.

So we're kind of attacking it, you know, the same question from both sides, you know, doing it statistically and doing it, you know, from the DNA codons and things like that.

So what, you know, what we're trying to find out is that is there any pockets where it's like, OK, you know, these people are more predefined or more susceptible, you know, this kind of group.

But one of the actually interesting things because you have a lot of people in the US debates and the Native Americans seem to have an amazing talent to be able to have these experiences and they're very profound when they explain.

So is it, you know, something in their DNA makeup that make them so receptive to this and have these very, very, like I said, profound experiences?

So it could be DNA based, it could be part of your family, you know, genetic makeup, you know, who knows?

But you know, we're, we're starting to understand that because we have this in place.

So when people come up to the study, you know, enter the study, they take a survey and then we take that.

We we run it through our algorithms and kind of, you know, put it into perspective of we can understand, you know, are there groups of things that are much better at, you know, what are these people saying?

What are these people saying?

And that's why we need to be worldwide because we just can't.

We can't focus on you and debates that we have to be all over the world.

Exactly right.

And hone in on where the action is, so to speak.

It strikes me like you have your data sets that are developing and obviously being very fruitful.

I've spent some time at the Center for the Impossible, sure.

And they have all.

Information there and.

Max stuff?

Yep.

Yeah.

And I mean all the obviously the Jack valets stuff, which is in public yet, but there's that's.

Going to them, that's going to them too, yeah.

Yeah.

So all of that information plus what you're producing, plus what like Gary might be able to produce in terms of, you know, the the deep roots biologically of what this stuff comes from.

We're going to get to a point where there it's just undeniable that there's absolutely something, you know, encounter.

People are encountering something.

It has deep roots within maybe their Physiology, but there is something transcendent that seems to be brushing up against us here.

And I don't think that there the skeptics aren't going to be able to avoid it eventually, I think.

Well, yeah, so that brings up a good point.

So what are the skeptics are people?

So what the objective of all this?

And you ask Gary, he's going to say the same thing.

The objective is to to publish a, a peer reviewed paper that undeniably says that this is a physical reality, you know, so here's the statistics, here's you know, here's all the stuff that we did.

This is how we did it and all that stuff.

You need very large number of people to do that and you need to have really good, you know, gathering techniques and things like that.

But the idea is to publish and, and put it through peer review and then have it in a, you know, real scientific journal and that.

So I've been working with this, like I said, this university, I mean, you, you hit on who, you know, the Center for the, you know, so you kind of hit on what that is.

But we're taking all this data and putting it all together and creating basically scientific evidence that will be then published out in peer review.

So all other scientists in the world have to click it and say, Yep, that's good, that's good, that's good.

And that's where we're going.

But to do that, you need to have, you know, just the scrutiny is going to be incredible because this is a really bad subject and people are going to say, you know, we don't want this in my journals.

So they're going to be very, very hard to get through.

But like you said, if you put it through in a right way and you do it right, they're not going to be able to discount it.

Yeah, it's so interesting because part of what is amazed me about this topic is that people can be confronted with very obvious physical evidence, but if they don't want to accept it, they will find ways to sort of warm out from underneath it, whether it's claiming fraud on perfectly reputable fellow scientists, because they don't.

It's like they've decided that, you know, for instance, PSI phenomenon is impossible.

So therefore, any evidence that you show me that, you know, indicates PSI, it's somehow wrong whether I know how it is or I'm just going to discount it.

And so that I think we're in the midst of a paradigm shift.

I think I see that sort of taking shape.

And that may be the the Crucible moment, you know, when we're like, kind of when they're confronted with something that they absolutely can't reject because the science is just too good.

You just have to make sure your scientific process is right and you have the right notoriety with the people and you put up, you know, really good journals.

And that's, I think at that point, if you come out with, with undeniable evidence, just like the Higgs boson, right?

Who the hell knows of the Higgs boson?

But they showed A6 Sigma result, then you can't deny it.

So we said, OK, I give up.

It's, it's, it's there.

There's so many people that hated that whole concept of, of the Higgs.

And so this could be the same thing if we come out with us a 5 or 6 Sigma result and they can go back and repeat it on another and another experimental venue.

Then it's they say, OK, let's move on, let's figure out, you know, let's go to the next step now.

Do you find that in your interactions with the fellow scientists that there is a shift toward people being?

More Yeah, you say, wow, wait a minute, there's people from Harvard coming forward and wanting to help.

There's people from my estate, there's people from Rice.

There's people, Oh my God, they're all over the place now.

And it's, you know, really good scientists, I mean people that are open minded and they really want to, they really want to get down to the, because they see, it's obvious.

It's there's something to discover here that could be significant.

Yeah.

And what I really like about, you know, what you're doing is that it takes the necessity for government disclosure kind of off the table.

It's like, yeah, you can have government say we've got flying saucers or bodies or whatever that, you know, aspect of the phenomenon is.

That's great.

But then also we can prove it ourselves.

There's enough information on the ground, enough smart minds committed, that you can substantiate all of this reality without having to beg the government for informational scraps, and it gives us the power back.

Yep.

And what's great is that the funding used to come from the, you know, the Darpas and you know, the the NIH and all those, you know, which is all government controlled, but now it's coming from other sources.

I mean, there's a lot of very wealthy people that experience on a day-to-day basis.

So it's like, oh, wait a minute, OK, these very, very wealthy billionaires are, are, are experiencers and they're saying, look, I want to figure out what the Hell's going on.

So they're releasing their money.

So like, for instance, the person that's funding my study, my individual study is somebody that was an experiencer that said, look, I want to help other people.

So you're going to get a lot of stuff like that.

So the scientists don't longer have to struggle with those little insignificant, you know, little.

Pieces of bread crumbs that the government throws out, they're going to have money that's a much more available until you have a lot more scientists coming on board.

Yeah.

And then there's also, when you're working with DARPA and agencies like that, there's always the possibility that what you research can become somehow part of, you know, weapon systems or whatever.

So if you have a moral objection to some of that, you can get, you know, the information.

Well, that was shock the lace thing, right?

So what he did his that big database that he did back in, I forgot the name of it, but the government scooped it up.

It's like that's it, it's gone.

So that's one of the biggest things that he hated doing was turning that whole thing over.

But we're not going to, you know, that right now that that won't fly.

I mean, so it's this is going to get released out to the public.

Yeah, I love it, man.

That's about all the questions I have for you.

I did want to ask you real quick.

I mean, I know that you spent time on Skinwalker Ranch.

Did you have any, you know, my viewers would be interested to know if you had any sort of hitchhiking experiences yourself coming off of there or if you can share any experiences that you may have had out there at either site at you went to that sort of defied explanation.

Well, at Skinwalker, I didn't really personally have any skin or hijack hijack experiences like that.

But there are other people that had hitchhiker stuff happened to them that actually started and said, you know, I want to be part of the study.

They were actually part of the study because their, their family members got seriously ill with very strange diseases.

So and my fortunately my family never got hit.

But blind Frog Ranch, that's a dirt.

I, you know, there are a lot of things that happened there that I still, that I saw that I really still can't explain.

There's, there's wave forms that we recorded.

There's just weird stuff going on there.

And, and, and I to this day, I have no idea what's going on.

So and it's, you know, I keep going back there and instrumenting.

And, you know, Dwayne Olinger is great for, you know, because he loves and he's very open.

You know, the skin Walker people, they don't want anybody know what's going on.

Dwayne was yeah, Dwayne is very, very open.

He wants everybody to know.

So it's much, much easier to do research there.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's pretty much all I had for you.

Thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me and congratulations on the fantastic work you've done.

Yeah, it's exciting.

Going forward, people should, you know, basically keep track of us because it's it's going to get bigger and bigger.