With a visionary physicist brave enough to buck the bridle of groupthink and contemplate the ramifications of this truly quantum universe.

This is neon Galactic.

I'm James Falk.

Thanks for joining us.

Ever since the quantum world was discovered, as we staggered our arrogant way into the 20th century, our most incandescent scientific minds have wrestled with the profound implications.

Many of the earliest pioneers ended up qualified Mystics themselves, pointing toward the strange and beautiful conundrums that bloomed like dandelions amid their arcane equations and chalkboard theories.

Niels Bohr, Wolfgang Powley, David Bohm, Erwin Schroedinger, and many others understood what profundities lay at the heart of quantum weirdness.

Our guest today started out as a mainstream scientist, but later reneged on the broken promise of an old approach to become a kind of prophet in the temple, flipping tables and scattering coins to make the scientific world embrace the transcendent truths our science had revealed.

Permit Goswami, a long time physics professor at the University of Oregon, went on to write several important books to explain the outlines of a revolutionary truth.

The universe itself is a mind in the midst of becoming, and we're all shards of that essential unity.

The most radical pursuit of scientific truth hadn't led to uncharted waters, but bent back through the ages to land once again in the contemplative minds of our ancient predecessors.

The so-called perennial philosophy endures because the cosmos evolves in cycles, not in straight lines.

And we, like everything else, are that cosmos.

Books like The Self Aware Universe changed lives and are even now helping readers break free of their ontological chains to understand the role of consciousness in the manifestation of being.

Goswami has become a hero of thought and spirit, math and mystery, a boisterous child of the alchemical marriage between mind and matter, reason and imagination.

It's a great honor to have him on the show.

Welcome, Sir.

Thank you.

So yes, thank you so much for taking the time to have a chat with me and my audience.

I read the sophomore Universe, especially, and it sent me on a path and I appreciate, I appreciate that deeply.

I'd like to start the conversation with a little bit about your background in science.

Primarily, what drew you to physics as a pursuit, and do you think those same interests later propelled you into sort of expanding your interpretation of what that involved and all it meant?

That did play a role because I remember very early childhood, I was interested in what my father was doing, history.

But that changed when I went to school and learned about science.

And then inexorably science seem to be more interesting.

It can be verified practical things.

And of course Einstein's work just masper has been.

So he joined physics to became a physicist.

But then the mundane demands of physics research in the Academy sort of imprisoned me for about 10 years.

I did some creative work, but you know, situational creativity, not of much impact because the problems that could be solved in a short time, which is the demand that Academy makes publish or perish, that keeps you into easily solvable problems.

And the big problems take longer time, and young people are just not allowed to do that unless they work under the cover of a great man.

With which opportunity I didn't have.

I did have a good advisor, but he was involved in little physics, so I was also doing little physics.

So that went on for quite a while.

When I got my full professorship, then I thought, OK, I'm on the top of the academic ladder anyway now I can do whatever I want.

Of course there are still some repercussions for that, but I managed I managed to change to really deep questions of quantum physics.

So those consequences, I wonder what LED you, LED you to make that break first from being a traditional, like you said, a small physics kind of professor to sort of, you know, entertaining these ontological questions.

Was there any particular thing or moment that sort of broke you free from what you had been doing?

Yes, there was an event.

I was invited to give a talk on my work at a nuclear physics conference, and I gave my talk.

But lo and behold, as other people started talking, instead of feeling good that I was for a few moments after my talk, I started feeling jealous that they are getting better talks, they're getting more attention.

And that jealousy lasted throughout the conference.

Even in the evening I was jealous because all the women were getting giving more attention to others and not to me.

I was married, I was really not interested in when an affair or anything.

But that lack of interest made me jealous.

And that continued the jealousy until I got so tired that I went outside of the room in which the party was taking place.

And we were on the Ocean Beach.

A breeze hits my face, and I have this absolutely radical thought.

Why do I live this way?

I don't have to.

And cancer came immediately.

That, yes, life can be integrated, thinking, living, livelihood, all can be concerned with each other.

That that changed my life.

That's a huge message.

Yeah.

So sort of like a spiritual epiphany of sorts in that moment sounds like.

Sounds like it was a spiritual experience in retrospect.

Although at that time I did not have a spiritual thought in my mind because more or less a change or I have to do something to change my way.

I was doing physics.

That's my next.

Initially.

That's my next question then.

I mean, like it doesn't sound like you had a, a ready made, you know, system in your head that you were going to deploy right away.

It was like I don't have to live this way.

I can make, you know, sort of the two halves of my, you know, life consonant and that opened you up.

How did you end up developing the way that you did?

Was it just sort of understanding how all a lot of the predecessor, your predecessors had thought about what quantum physics was, or is it just the facts of quantum physics that kind of opened your eyes?

I did not even immediately go into quantum physics.

I actually went into cosmology.

You know, see, cosmology can vitalize the interest I used to feel when I was young because cosmology was then one of my interests.

But I found cosmologies does not have anything really radical that had implications for our life.

In the meantime, just kind of afterthought.

I also revived a little bit of what I was taught in my childhood, that meditation is good for personal transformation, etcetera.

And I need to change some habits.

My wife cooks me.

So I got into meditative practices.

I was to go to Zen people, Zen masters in Buddhism.

I used to join other groups of spiritual practices in the town, and that too had had an effect.

The total effect was that by about 1979, I was unhappy with cosmology as well.

And then one day I noticed that, yeah, one of physics may be the right answer, because people have been talking about quantum physics and mystical terms for a very long time.

You mentioned Schrodinger.

I read Schrodinger's book What is Life?

And in the appendix he writes consciousness is a being for which there is no singular.

That sentence intrigued me enormously.

Consciousness is a being for which there is no singular.

It's one and only there's there's no plural, sorry.

Consciousness is the being for which there is no plural.

It's all singular.

It's a single one and only consciousness.

So that was very intriguing because that coincided what my father taught me a long, long, long time ago when I was like 3 or 4 and I looked upon quantum physics more and more in terms of what are the implications of web particle duality?

Does that mean that web resides in a different domain of reality?

Would it be that domain of reality is the domain of people call consciousness or unconscious, which is the better word?

And eventually found YES to these answers to these questions and those YES has slept to a coherent formulation of the meaning of quantum physics which are published as Sephora Universe.

Before that there was a scientific paper as well.

Yeah.

How did your, you know, colleagues at the University of Oregon, which is a good school, I mean, how did they react when you suddenly begin pursuing this new path and then you publish?

And the Sephora universe did well, I think, right?

And so it wasn't like this was just a quiet thing you were doing.

You had declared to the world that there was this approach you were going to take.

And it was non traditional for physicists.

So I wonder if you were, you know, disrespected or ostracized or how they approached you after that.

It was a very interesting situation.

Privately, quite a few of my colleagues said things like we are proud of you, I'm proud of you because you have been so brave, etcetera.

But at the public stance, the department took the stand that this is not to be tolerated.

This is outside of mainstream physics.

Therefore I should not be given any more raises.

That should be looked as a pariah.

I could not be fired.

Of course I had tenure, but I was given more teaching load etcetera.

So they did not treat me very well.

But they did those things, they didn't just discuss them.

They actually like followed through and gave you kind of a a weight to carry around as a result of your principles.

Yeah, but that must have been that the that the suffering was minimal.

As I said that the colleagues, some of the colleagues were complimentary and that that helped a lot.

Some of the colleagues were overly hostile, but many of them were complimentary.

Yeah.

Did the students notice and how did they react?

Did.

You take what?

Students, did they notice that you had done this thing?

Did it become a sort of a part of your presence on campus?

And were you were students drawn to you as a result of the work you had done?

Yeah, there was that.

Never mind.

One of my colleagues would always present out when my other colleagues were objecting to me going into a subject which does not belong to physics, family, integration of science and spirituality.

He would always remember the others, that I'm the most famous member of the physics department.

So there was that.

But, you know, a little bit of get back there.

So I mean, it's interesting because you did this a long years ago, I mean, some 303540 years ago even.

And you've gone on to have this career that has continued advocacy for a, a new look at physics and spirituality and how they can sort of coexist and and sort of prove the same, the same points.

How do you feel like the the world has progressed in that time in terms of quantum physics?

Do you think that?

I'm very grateful that the Scientific world Special in Neuroscience through its experimental data, actually has confirmed some of the things that I've been talking about from the beginning.

Even in 199293 when Step 4 Universe was being published, a Mexican neurophysiologist, Harkobo Greenberg, he took it upon himself and his collaborators.

I participated in their experiment.

Actually they did an experiment of where one or two people meditate together with the intention that they will have direct communication.

Both of their brains are connected to individual EEG machine.

They are put in further the cages, so therefore no direct communication between them is possible.

And yet, when one person saw a bunch of light flashes, which is measured by the EGR connected to his brain, the other person who is not seeing any light flashes, he is the EG as well as showed the virtually the same electric potential as the person who directly saw the light flashes.

In other words, there was a transferred potential.

Electric potential is transferred from one brain to the other without going through any signals.

Signal less communication.

So the confirmation of transport potential was very important to me.

And over the years it was verified by some two dozen liberators.

And then science has since verified that brain of brain works in two modes, 1 is pretty localized mode, that's the ego, and the other is pretty much many places of the brain.

That's what I call the quantum modality, quantum self.

So the ideas of the paper of the book that I wrote, some for universe have already been very fine.

This is great comfort and top of it.

Later work I proposed a science for vital energy, the chakras that distant psychology has always propagated.

Those ideas I had I backed up with theory, and vital energy measurements confirmed this part of the theory as well.

Yeah.

I worked on theory of evolution, and the new ideas again were more explaining more of the experimental data of biological evolution than Darwinism can.

So in that way, I was made not only progress in psychology, but also progress in biology.

Yeah.

On on the Leading edge and a lot of these things that sort of come about years later or have the, you know, sort of bubbles through the Academy to finally come up as as accepted ideas, or at least ideas that are taken way more seriously.

I'm interested in the Jacobo Greenberg, the man because of things that I mean, he has since disappeared.

No one knows where he's at.

And there's a some conspiracy theories that surround that and I'm not convinced there's nothing there there.

There's some mysterious things that went on with what he was doing and how he ended up disappearing.

That's very sad and tragic, but hints to sort of the complexity and even danger that can follow some of these subjects if there are people who don't want those things to come out.

One thing that you wrote about later on that I found was really intriguing and I the physics of the soul, which I'm intrigued by.

Can you give us a little sort of a description of how you view the soul within the body?

I mean, you mentioned quantum self.

How does that fit within the larger matrix of reality?

Is that something we can talk about on the podcast or is that asking too much?

From from the from the beginning of my work, you know, I was intrigued by the fact that the what we intuit are the archetypes, truth, beauty, justice, love.

But my own investigation of the archetypes like love was a constant challenge because I remarried and this wife was a little bit of a maverick.

She was constantly challenging me about the nature of love, saying that my Love Is All mental and love needs emotions, heart.

So this kind of intriguing thing, basically, in a situation where I was finding that exploring the archetypes are no joke, it takes years.

It took years to learn to love my wife beautifully.

Seven years after that, we were stable with each other.

So that being the case, I was very interested in the idea that I learned from India in my childhood, namely that we reincarnate.

I discarded the idea in my hard science career, but that idea now came back and so I wanted to see if there was any direct evidence.

What helped also is that there was a guy from the Theosophical Society, which pushes the idea of being connection very much, who was in my life and he started filling me in with the literature.

So I read some books to it and Book of the Dead with one of them.

And one night I dreamt.

I dreamt that the voice is telling me Tibetan book of the dead is correct, it's your job to prove it.

So after such an invitation how could I do this?

So I really went the research and soon figured out what trans, what trans migrates from one body to another is that we have non local memory.

The memory of learning things that we learn is not just in the brain as an incident, but also as a capacity in a non local way outside of special time.

In other words, that learning capacity of doing things like learning to bicycle, learning to love.

These things go with us when we die and the in the later life.

Learning to learning to ride a bike would be very easy.

Learning to love would relatively be very easy.

That's the advantage of having good karma, just the meaning of the Eastern word karma.

So the later on you also got into talking about quantum activism and I think the the idea there is how sort of these truths that you were discovering can be put to work to both improve the self and improve society.

And as I look around in, you know, our current moment, and I live in America, so I'll put that out there, I see a lot of problems and a lot of it seems to redound to ego and the traps of materialism and, you know, wanting to acquire things and also wanting to be, you know, proclaimed as a great person and, you know, just the things that ego drives us to.

How do you think an awareness of these kinds of things could, could address that?

And it's, it's an interesting conundrum to me that even as we are getting more accepting of these ideas, the world seems to be getting even worse in terms of its egomania.

So what are your thoughts on that and how can we turn that tide?

Yeah, this is a very, very important question for us to discuss in the 1980s, when scientific materialism was establishing itself as a metaphysics for doing science.

At that some time you will.

Well, we were not very old at that time, but still you may remember as a child that there was this movement of religion being moral maturity and all that.

Yeah, now that vision being modern Moral Majority, has now transformed into a redefinition of Christianity itself, which depicts Jesus as a hateful person instead of, of course, what the Gospels tell us.

But who reads Gospels, this test?

We get our information from social media, and the social media writers consistently know this is what Jesus was.

He wanted hate against the homosexual state, against women, hate against this and that.

Then that's what people accept.

And so we have murder.

We have a completely different world view.

But all of this is in reaction to scientific materialism.

Scientific materialism boost people, ordinary people who don't think about the questions into the corner.

And to save Christianity, they thought they must take a reactionary stand.

So in a way, scientific materialism destroyed science, the true spirit of science.

But there should be no dogma.

We now have a dogma.

Everything is material.

That's become a dogma because no scientist allowed to work outside the dogma officially.

If they do what they're punished like I am, you know, you become an outsider.

People, people don't publicize what you're doing.

People don't pay attention.

There's a lot of way of ostracizing somebody who can do direct ostracizing.

You can also neglect benign neglect.

So whatever they do, they do something.

Yeah.

And so as a as a reaction to that, religions have to be back up and become more conservative.

And that conservatism led to forgetting the basic elements of religion, which is justice, which is loving others distribute wealth.

You know Jesus says let the meek inherit the world and where they make now solve the powerful play of the powerful.

So in a world it's called muppens for the scientific pictures.

What is happening in America and other countries too.

So price of totalitarianism cannot be blamed on just the others.

It's blamed on to be also this side, the good side.

Yeah, absolutely.

How do we begin to open people's minds to the idea that true spirituality doesn't involve those principles?

I mean, one of the things that I worry about is that because of all of like you were saying, the Moral Majority and MAGA and, you know, conservative right wing, you know, fundamentalism is that it pushes people off of the idea that anything in it basically convinces that people that anything people regard as immaterial will somehow corrupt their mind and turn them into these kinds of, you know, dogmatic, you know, zombies, when in fact it's it, it may well be the path of liberation.

So, you know, how do we can how do we open people up to the possibilities when the most obvious examples of spirituality and you know, society are so toxic?

Any any ideas on that?

Or is that?

It's a big problem.

So the, you know, the psychologist David Hawking did a study, agreed.

Not a very scientific study, but partially scientific.

And he found that 15% of people, fully 15% of people are quite willing to examine their world for one side with spirituality, side with transformation.

You know, it, it, it we are not as isolated as it seems.

It's that's just that we don't have a very big social media presence.

Social media presence is, is this challenge how to create a publicity apparatus with which people will join in?

You know, my collaborator Valentino honey, Sir, you know, I hope you will invite her.

You know, one of your thoughts.

She's great.

She and I wrote a book and we have also started a training program for people who are ready to transform.

It's a transformational program, but it gives PhD and Master's degree and official endorsed by Affiliated University, University of Technology in India.

So we are doing things and from the response that I get from my students, people really are interested in transformation.

And we have a very international audience and you know, countries like Brazil, Europe, America, they are interested.

We get students from all over.

Yeah.

I mean, I obviously I have my show and I'll be talk a lot about these kinds of things and there is a chord that gets struck.

People are definitely interested in figuring out ways that we can be different and change sort of the trajectory of human development.

So you're absolutely, I totally agree with you on that.

Can you give us, I mean without spilling the beans, but in terms of your program of development, what I mean, what does that look like?

Can you give us a sort of some general sketch of what modalities you're using to help people kind of break out of their physical shells, I guess?

Very good question.

First of all, we use quantum physics to understand things.

So psychology within quantum science, within the primacy of consciousness.

Now agreed that psychology already has an awareness, Transpersonal psychology and humanistic psychology, depth psychology, although they teach deeper levels of consciousness.

So in a sense we are scientising these psychologists because they cannot make the connection with the brain.

We do, we integrate all the psychologists, including behavioural cognitive.

So in psychology this would be a major force sooner or later because it's an integrative psychology.

As soon as the Patania and I wrote a book called Quantum Psychology and the Science of Happiness, this is the first time, you know, no offence to positive psychology development.

And at Harvard that is also a good development.

But we have gone much further than that.

We have brought spirituality into the process.

That's the whole process.

It's not just being positive, it's not just having the capacity of looking at things from an alternative way that is positive instead of looking at things only in the negative way.

It's more than that.

It's positive in the search of the spirit, of the search of unity, of the search of wholeness.

This is what we think about in our students.

So the courses that we teach not only have an intellectual part, but also have a very important experiential part.

They actually meditate, they actually do vital energy practices, Banarama Qigong, all that, and that deepens their understanding of the world, that the world really is spiritual.

It's not a material world, it's not a dog, it's dog world.

It's not a competitive world.

There is the potentiality of balancing the competition.

Competition is there.

It's built into our brain.

The domination is there.

It built into our brain.

Anger is there, all the negative emotions, But we have positive emotions and potentiality.

If we practice, we can embody this positive emotions and balance the negative.

We can become whole.

This is what we need.

Which I think humanity has been chasing forever that kind of sense of wholeness.

I mean, you mentioned in sophomore university Jung comes up and IA lot of this sounds uni and especially with your talk earlier about sort of engaging with the archetypes and sort of pushing through to find that that wholeness.

And I I think that humanity does that unconsciously.

And we see that in our entertainment feeds and everything else that we are constantly wrestling with these big ideas and trying to find some sense of satisfaction or, you know, wholeness in in ourselves.

But it's all kind of on the surface because it's entertainment and we don't make personalize it, experience it.

And sounds like your course offers a way way to do that.

That's the thing, people talk too much today.

They don't, they don't do meditation.

So that's the problem.

It's like the maid who used to say I don't do windows.

But the windows, if they're not clean, then we cannot see very well outside.

So what has happened to very large number of intelligentsia?

They talk a lot, but because of their windows are not clean, they do not see the peaceful perspective of it.

They're a little allergic to the word spirituality and so it's just funny that all these neuroscience articles are written.

There are now people are proposing and not exactly non intellectual.

Their intellectual gravity is undeniable and people are that books came out recently which proposes that yes, consciousness is the ground of being, which I proposed 30 years ago and now since then, as I said, experimentally verified in the sense of the brain does have 2 self identities, ego and a higher self called quantum self.

So these things are getting some popularity.

Some notice that it is still the alternative media.

They don't get mainstream media approval.

Mainstream media is staunchly scientific materialist, so they just don't talk about this kind of neuroscience research very much.

So neuroscience research is a very vast subject which has a lot of traditional things like drinking coffee in the morning or drinking coffee in the evening.

What is good for you?

You can let people drink coffee and then watch the what is happening in the brain with functional neuro imaging and that will get a part of the social media.

But if somebody says that when we are spiritual, the brain also becomes distributed in the all over the head, these things only can be published as books, not not in them, not publicized in the mainstream media.

Believe it or not, there is actually a book written by prominent scientists Goldman and Davidson.

They wrote a book Alter Traits where they have shown that the brain changes if people meditate like 240 hours that kind of meditation in their life.

If you bring meditation and alliances, creativity as well, because meditation eventually becomes great if you do it for long time in the right way.

This great meditators have changed their brain into a predominance of the quantum cells and and this is not major news.

I mean, it seems like it should be the news, the, the, the biggest news of all time, right?

Well, I'm, I'm struck, I, I have a regular meditation practice that I, that I do and I'm, I consider myself a deep amateur, but I, I say it a lot and I'm often struck by people who are interested in these topics, but they like, well, I don't, I'm not very good at meditating And I'm always like, well, no one is when they start, right?

It's like you've got to put the time in and then eventually it gets to where you crave it because there's a, you know, if nothing else, you're cultivating serenity and that is much better than the kind of fight or flight agony we're, we're all usually in.

So I, I wonder what's your reaction when people say that, you know, they're not very good at meditation.

And then also, what about meditation makes it so therapeutic in your mind?

Well, but what you have to do is to teach meditation in the right perspective.

Meditation can be used for increasing focus and concentration.

So for people who need that, like people who have a tendency for ADHD, hyperactivity and attention disorder, for them you have to show that concentration meditation really does help to focus.

If you, if you take that kind of attitude or practical attitude, you have this difficulty will do this.

Some people have difficulty in, in being aware of what is happening in their life.

Lots of stuff is happening in their relationship, but they cannot pinpoint, do I, what do I do wrong?

They cannot figure it out for them.

They have to be aware.

They have to increase their sensitivity to what is going on and awareness, meditation, just being aware of what is going on in the minefield.

That is the right prescription.

And for majority of people learning to just sit without fidgeting because then very soon, like within 5 minutes, within 10 minutes Max, they will start feeling relaxed just sitting without fidgeting.

You don't have to watch anything.

You don't have to really meditate in the formal sense, but just sit with your thoughts, not do anything.

Not doing.

They're simply not doing.

Now people do that, but you know what people do people when they're not do they think about worries, they think about anxieties, but they don't think about without aloofness that you have to let it go.

We don't get attached to the whatever thought is going on.

So that seating, what it does is gradually develops a non attachment to the ongoing stuff that produces anxiety, produces fear, produces negative emotions in you.

Just being able to sit with them without gradually without adding to them.

This is what we do.

We become more anxious.

If our anxious thought comes, we pick it up.

No, just watch what is coming.

Don't don't have to pick up anything, don't have to attention, pay this way or that way.

Just sit, whatever is coming, just sitting.

So this kind of way, this is what we teach.

We teach all three kinds of meditation for concentration, for awareness and for relaxation in a in a separate way, giving the proper context of why this is important, the theory.

So we spend a lot of time with explaining, putting meditation in the proper perspective.

And we have mentioned from the get go that yeah, it is being bored.

We have to learn to being bored, being bored with such.

Not such bad idea being bored.

Especially these days, Yeah, we're also stimulated all the time.

Like getting bored is probably the best thing we could possibly do.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so, you know, I mean really what happens to people today is that there's too much of do, do, do in the materialistic world, especially social media, cell phone, these things have made it very difficult.

Information processing naturally comes to people.

There's so much information.

Just looking out the sports scores, you can keep yourself busy for a couple of hours in a day.

And then there is the lives of famous people.

So that's part of the day.

And then communicating with the group of how we look, exchanging photographs, that's part of the day.

So, you know, this is the this is the way it has become.

In a previous era, housewives were kept kept busy like that.

Husbands would buy those popular magazines of stars and housewives would greet those and keep themselves busy during the day because they have nothing else to do today.

Similarly, although not in that way, but similarly, it's automatically because of the social publicity.

Oh, everything is in the social media.

So that's what they check in the morning.

That's what they check in the night before going to sleep.

Where is the time for meaning and purpose in their life?

And then some of them traced these questions.

What is the meaning of life in midlife?

In the panic, I am glad to, I have not.

I have wasted my life.

So that's when the transition can occur.

And some of them crave for that transition.

And that's when they come to us, to a transformative school.

They seek spiritual guidance.

They go to at least a psychologist to assess, can I change?

Can I do better?

And now health scientists are coming up with this wonderful measurements that brain changes during or getting old.

And if we don't don't change with the changes of the brain, we'll be stuck with unhealthy and very unhappy old age that that consciousness is great.

So at midlife especially, not so much in the early life because there is too much earlier of external things, too much of social media type things that attract young people.

But at least for midlifers, those things are relatively unimportant.

They really are aware that they have neglected meaning and purpose in their life for a very long time.

It's time to catch up.

Especially if they don't catch up, then the probability is very high that they will have dementia in their later years, which nobody wants.

I mean, that's the most adequate hope in your life.

Yeah, You lose touch with everybody.

You know, one of the things that as you were talking, you were, you know, people who have different personalities and different issues in their lives require different modes of meditation in order to kind of address whatever particular, you know, problems they're having.

That speaks to the need for a teacher, you know, like if you have someone to sort of engage with you and see where you're at and have a knowledge system behind them to be like, OK, well, I can grab this tool out of this toolbox and, you know, that would help you with these particular problems.

And in the West, we don't really have a lot of that in our immediate circles.

Like we have to go out and find.

Spiritual teachers and they're like usually they're not at least the kind I'm talking about aren't the people that are leading the the most of the local churches.

They're if they're around in your community, they're often hidden or less less obvious.

And it reminds me of some talk that's been going on about, you know, young adolescent males and how they lack role models these days.

I mean, if in the raising of children, if we began to sort of value these things more and raised people up with this knowledge that we'd have, you know, middle-aged men who have these this knowledge be able to pass it down to their their children, both, you know, sons and daughters.

And we could sort of inculcate A healthier spiritual being nest that doesn't require, you know, medication or, you know, psychotherapy.

It's just about sort of looking inward and quieting down.

It's probably pie in the sky, but that's the kind of society I'd like to live in, you know?

I don't think that needs to happen.

Yeah, parenting, teaching, parenting, proper parenting is a major objective for us now.

It is very important to realize that children at an early age, from zero to five are naturally spiritual.

Their quantum self is very alive.

They experience that quantity of the quantum self quite often.

They're joyful.

And therefore, if we fan that spirituality within them and don't, don't quench it with intellectual thinking like reading, writing, arithmetic at age 3, that never happened before.

But now the competition of the schools are such that you in order to get your kid to a good school, you have to start.

Many parents feel that you have to start educating them as early as three.

That is not right.

Psychologists have found that no, until the students hippocampus develops properly, the brain brain does not have the capacity of putting things in proper perspective.

Learning things from the wrong perspective is what confuses the kids the most.

And then, you know, at age 5 to get some autonomy.

But perspective is already created wrong.

Wrong belief system is already with that.

Wrong belief system just gets augmented more and more with very materialistic education where even moral values cannot be talked about anymore in schools.

These things are somewhat different in religious schools, but they get alternative dogmas of religion, so that's not very good either.

So in effect, in most countries today, the education, early education, parental as well as early education in schools, that needs some radical rethinking and changing.

But how to do it?

Who will build the cat?

This is the real problem because these things are very political and you cannot so easily penetrate the politics of primary schools in America.

And that's what it's very difficult.

So things will take time.

Now I have to remember always though, that from Copernicus's idea to Newtonian physics, it was almost 200 years.

Yeah.

And it was a huge change and it and it took time for it to get absorbed, right.

I mean, so that's the level of transformation we're looking at to sort of make this shift.

Yeah.

Now, of course, time has speeded up tensions to happen faster, but that's only certain kind of changes.

This kind of changes, fundamental paradigm shift we have not gone through for a long time and not since Copernicus.

So this will take time.

We just have to be patient.

And as David Hartman says, things are growing.

This 15% will grow, and more and more people will become interested in a very gradual and obstructive way.

And one day we'll find that, you know, just like the rise of Trumpism, except Trumpism rose pretty fast from 1980 to 2015.

So it took roughly just about 3035 years here.

It will take much longer, much longer, because the negative emotions are built into us.

So Trump did not or Trump and the leaders of Brazil did not have to do very much.

All they had to do is to shun the pretension of the materialist.

Materialists don't agree with values either.

Spirituality is an optimal to them.

But they have pretend values.

They should be good, they should behave.

You should have, you know, the old personality, you should be just, you should not have racism.

But all these shoots are not backed up that you should be spiritual.

Then only you can do these things.

It's not possible to tell him that as a raciality from your heart without a spiritual practice because the natural tendency is is built into our negative emotions.

Once we get into that, you know, this wood versus slightly white versus black.

This kind of thing is not easy to get rid of because they're part of it is built into the brain in the form of negative emotions.

So built into to combat them, we really have to be spiritual, but that the left never bothers about.

So the right wingers, they all they have to do is to point out that look, they're pretenders.

That's what Trump did.

Basically.

People are so tired of pretend spirituality, pretend values, that they trusted Trump because at least he's telling the truth.

Let it all hang out.

We are negative.

Trump, of course, never mentioned the idea of spirituality that we can change.

You have a lot of potentiality towards change.

That's what we are.

That's how we got stuck with this present situation.

To improve it, we have to bring the values back again.

We have to bring back love.

We have to bring back goodness, just being good to each other socially.

We have to bring back the concept of justice in the proper perspective, truth in the proper perspective.

You cannot have a society without having a way of ascertaining what truth is.

But with social media, how do a certain truth?

It's this rampant with misinformation.

There's no way of judging between misinformation and what is right information.

Information itself is difficult to get from the news media today.

Everything is laced with opinions for somebody's opinion about something.

Or is it really the raw information?

We don't get raw information very easily.

You know, it strikes me too, but you were saying about like, you know, the left and the right and how the left sort of alienated people that were late later caught up in the sort of the Trumpian movement.

Both sides are guilty of tribalism.

And I think that that goes back to what you were saying about negative emotions.

It's like people on the left are, we're so eager to judge people on the right who they judge to be racist or sexist or all of those things that they just made them the other and then put all their antipathy on them and gave them.

No, there was no inclusiveness there.

It's like if people are feeling that way, it's because of, you know, elements in their life that have pushed them in that direction.

And you can't help lift them up out of it by blaming them or, you know, sort of talking down to them.

You have to include them and make them a part of the the broader whole.

And that seems like the great mistake that the the left made that made everyone so angry.

It's all this talking down.

You don't understand, you know, racism, every slip of the tongue is some representative of some deep hate that you that you're harboring in your heart.

And people knew that wasn't true for themselves, even though they might be using the wrong word.

And so they got angry.

And so they turned to whoever would get them out of that kind of paradigm.

And that was Trump.

And so it's part of the reason why we're in the situation where I.

This is why I started quantum activism.

You or you preach, you better change yourself.

Yeah, be exactly the message that you want to preach.

Otherwise people really feel that you're a hypocrite.

And this is precisely what happens.

People who are preaching be good to your neighbor were not good to their neighbors.

They are pretending.

And people also realize that these things come to me naturally, tell me what to do.

And nobody was telling them that we are there potentialities that you have to work, we have to meditate, you have to be spiritual, you have to go to the church and pray.

But before they can be modified, these negative emotions, nobody was telling them that.

And Trump said half truths.

Trump said, well, they're natural.

Let it all hang out.

These these guys are open.

They're that word is absolutely no, no for us.

And they became an anti movement.

And that is the cause of the success.

Now, of course, this will go on back and forth for a while because nobody can keep their promise.

And then Trump is cannot keep their promise either.

So the old people may get back their power, then support it goes for for a while, but back.

And forth, back and forth.

Underneath all this, real transformation is taking place very slowly.

And so my vision is that we start seeing change, maybe a few decades, much bigger changes.

Of course, then there is also the big threat of artificial intelligence.

It's generative variety, it's very powerful, and many people are buying into it.

It's very dangerous for our kids.

Before we have just social media.

Now with the addition of artificial intelligence, you know, when we can do homework and write your Trump papers using these programs, this is the most dangerous things that have come to education in a long time.

So we have to go through this.

We have to make people aware that the generative AI is not for students.

If you want to learn something, you must not let the program find your answer because you have to go through the process.

Process is important.

You are given a problem.

You have to go through the meaning processing that leads to the answer.

If you use AI to get the answer, you get the answer, but you never went through the process.

You'll never learn it.

You'll never have the part of your belief system invested in that.

That investment in the belief system, something that I really have faith on.

That happens only because we go through a meaning processing before we get to the result and that is no longer necessary.

Students are avoiding it everywhere.

Colleges are changing.

Schools are changing because they don't do homework anymore in the right way, so they don't learn anything.

I accept how to use the AI to get their answers.

This is a very dangerous situation that is coming up.

So we have to navigate a lot of this stuff.

It's not just battle between the old people and the conservatives, not conservatives, reactionary people.

It's not just that.

It's in addition the challenge of technology.

Well, then the challenge of technology never changes.

And the two, there's all of the, I mean, if you talk about planetary destruction, a lot of that comes from technology as well.

And I often find that part of the discussion where there is spirituality versus technology, how the two relate, how they can properly be held in balance, because you can't expect humanity to do away with the technology that has that it uses to its advantage.

But we have to be smarter about how we deploy it and be much more measured.

There's so many of these issues that, you know, sort of pile up and it seems overwhelming.

But like you were saying, if we go back to, you know, sort of the inner journey, before we even get to those conversations, we'll engage in a much more fulsome and healthy manner and maybe we can begin to see a way through some of this stuff.

Yeah, that is the main problem, especially with the scientists who study consciousness.

You know, the consciousness.

The study is such a narrow view of consciousness, namely just the subjectivity of an experience, subjective qualia.

That's a definition of consciousness.

With that kind of definition, where do you go?

You know, when I was entering physics, my all, my advisor used to say that don't look at the general characteristics of a phenomenon, look at the exceptions.

The exceptions are what tell you the real difficult problems, underlying problems solving, which will clarify the entire situation.

The scientists have forgotten the basic rule of doing science.

They are looking at the superficial aspect which is the subject of quality.

Beyond that, there is this huge field of transformation.

Anybody can read up some transpersonal psychology, read up some Omean psychology, read up some deaf psychology and pick up the fact that the world is not as simple as matter.

Making up the world.

There is just one world, space-time, matter of motion.

There is unconscious, there is mind, there is vital energies that these things are not matter, archetypes, intuition, all these things, people practice them.

People change.

There are transform people, whole bunch of transform people in the world, thousands of them, but their consciousness is not the subject of study.

They have elevated, expanded consciousness.

They are capable of loving, as I mentioned, alter traits, the brain changes to reflect their loving.

This data don't get any mentioned in the work of the scientists.

Their models of scientists are based on computers, barely something that can be called scientific, a little bit of subjective quality.

I introduced that in the computer program and they will declare we have a conscious computer.

You have nothing like of that sort.

Consciousness fundamentally is the ability of look at the looking at the world separate from yourself.

It's not subjectivity which is the fundamental quality.

The fundamental quality is the ability that we have, that we have the self, looking at the world as separate from ourselves.

How we get that separation?

Material world is not separate.

This can interact with anything else, like this wire, just by touching it, being close.

They're not really separate.

They are separate, but air molecules are impinging the cord, air molecules are also impinging this.

So there is connection, whereas we really have self looking at the world of objects without any connection.

The cell results in a domain that's in between that unconscious and the conscious.

That's the moment of quantum self.

And that quantum self is universal.

If we got touch of that, we get inspired, we get of expanded happiness, feeling of expansion of consciousness.

This is what the scientists, neuroscientists have to discover.

They have to start meditating and they have to see that consciousness is fundamentally different than the consciousness they're studying.

One thing I've been struck by is like if I consider the whole of creation as a whole, as a mind right?

Or as a what is the, do you have any sense or do you have any idea or conjecture about what the experience of that one mind is?

Is there an executive function there?

And if there is, what is its mission?

Do you feel like it would have one and would you know what it is?

I mean, how do you that's sort of gets at what the meaning of existence is, right?

Like what's the universe itself after?

I know, I know it partly.

I haven't run the whole web.

If you go the whole the way you call them enlightened people because their transformation was much deeper than the transformation that I have experienced.

But I have experienced some transformation and I have experience of that.

I am one with everything.

What happens is that I was meditating, meditating for our son for seven days and all of a sudden I was in a field and I felt one with everything.

And that was followed by two days of uncondition and love for everyone.

Even people who I didn't like, I was able to love with looking them complete acceptance and loving energy.

So that capacity, I'll never forget that it came up with Freddy Oil Course because it was not a profound enlightenment experience, but it was a glimpse at the Enlightenment.

What it does that universal love.

You've got the capacity of loving everybody in spiritual Twitter says it is said to the enlightened the world becomes family.

For two days I had that experience of the world becoming family.

Everyone is part of the world, humanity and therefore my family, that capacity to love them.

Now that is the potency of spiritual transformation, that capacity of loving everybody you are so hold that you include everybody in your wholeness, that ability of inclusivity.

And that's what you think.

That's what the it's sort of the mind of God exists within.

Is that is that fair to say?

I mean.

It's within within our potentiality, and that is the mind of God.

The inclusivity mind of God interests everybody.

And that inclusivity we can not only feel but act on it.

We can act on it.

Our behaviour will show that.

This is why we emphasize in quantum activism so much to change your behaviour.

You change yourself.

Before you tell somebody to change, be the change that you want to be.

As Gandhi used to say, these are very important teachers who have forgotten them.

But if humility goes a long way, right, I mean, it's like people don't want to look at themselves.

I think that's a fantastic place to end it.

Thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me and having a fantastic conversation.

I appreciate you.

Thank you, James.

Thanks for having me.