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I believe that the increased pressure and the escalation that's taken place is the only way to force Maduro to understand that it's tan to go.

Maria Corina Machado, activist, politician and now winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

Isn't the fact that you to achieve the peaceful transition that you describe you need the US military.

Well, I think that history has the orchistrative that that's correct.

We have everything and we are ready to take our government.

From Bloomberg Weekend, this is the Michelle Hussein Show.

I'm Michelle Hussein.

What does it take to maintain a political campaign in a highly repressive sociececiety where a single party has been in power for nearly thirty years.

That was on my mind as I went into this latest conversation.

It's with the woman who would be Venezuela's president right now, had she not been barred from standing by Nicholas Maduro, the longtime leader of the country.

He is widely regarded to have rigged an election last year, but even that had faded from international attention until something remarkable happened.

A couple of months ago, the United States started bombing boats off the coast of Venezuela, saying that they were carrying drugs, and since then it has begun a massive military escalation in the region, sending sailors, marines, warships and fighter jets there.

All of that means it's a pretty extraordinary moment to be talking to the woman who three weeks ago won the Nobel Peace Prize.

She's a Venezuelan opposition leader.

I wondered, of course, how a Nobel Peace laureate views military escalation and the risk of US military intervention.

I wondered, too, what kind of a leader Maria Karina Maschado would be herself if she got the chance.

She is from the right of politics.

She's remained inside Venezuela when many opposition figures have left the country, and when we spoke, I felt she was pinning her hopes on this being a moment of regime change.

She spoke of last chances, last opportunities for Nicholas Maduro to go.

But we began with her own circumstances because they are extreme.

For more than a year, she's had to live in hiding inside Venezuela because of the risk of arrest.

Last year, we had an incredible event.

We won an election, a presidential election by a landslide, under extreme unfair conditions, and after that happened, the Maduda regime unleash the worst repression campaign in Venezuelan history.

I'm talking about thousands of people that were you detained, torture, disappeared, even children, women have used everything.

But our friends, are colleagues are either in jail or have to be in hiding or have left the country.

So I was accused of terrorism by Nicola Madudo and I had to go into hiding.

It's almost fifteen months.

I am in absolute isolation on my own and well, of course I am conscious that if they find me, well, at the least, they would disappear me.

That's what they've said.

And what is the impact of getting the peace price on that situation.

Does it give you more protection because you have a higher international profile, or does it put you at more risk.

I think it certainly gives us a higher protection, not only me, but also my colleagues that are fighting around the country, because, as as you said, it brings the attention of the whole world to a just noble courageous fight and at the same time, you know, it creates more pressure under the regime in terms of increasing the cost of repression that you know, until these days, for years, we've been trying the world to understand, you know, that the cost of repression has to be increased by Duo has felt that they are totally you know, they have no cost.

They can disappear, torture killed, and the cost will be zero.

But the time of impunity it's over.

So this is, this has had an impressive effect and the moral of the Venusuel people.

People are singing and shearing, celebrating and feeling that it is also a recognition that brings us even further together.

And yet isn't there a move in the last few days to strip you of your citizenship?

Well, they have done everything you can think about.

I mean, this is something that it's not only unconstitutional, this is absurd, but frankly, I think it is a reflection of our desperate the regiin is how weak the regime is and the kind of mistakes they're making.

Because these only furthers, as I say, the consciousness of the world that this is an urgent conflict that has to be solved, and the.

US certainly sees it that way at the moment, doesn't it.

We've seen this very striking move in the last few months, the military build up in the Caribbean, with the world's biggest warship being on its way.

They're just the latest demonstration of that.

I want to ask you about the strikes the US has carried out on boats in the Caribbean.

Described is being strikes on drug cartels.

What is your position on the deaths that have happened in that way.

Michelle, As I was saying, for years, we were, you know, asking the world to understand the degree of the threat and this devastation the Maludo regime was building in Venezuela.

I mean, Venezuela has been turned into the safe heaven for the activities of all criminal international networks, from the drop per Tales to the Colombian Gorilla, to those groups that smuggle gold and destroy communities of our indigenous people and the Ecology, to red works that smuggle arms and even human trafficking and child prostitution.

This is horrible what we're leaving Russian agents, Iranian agents freely operating in Venezuela, Hezbola and hamas being located in our country, and as any criminal structure works, the moment you start, you know, weakening them and then falling apart, is when you cut the sources of their and the inflows of their criminal activities.

And we have asked for years international community to cut these sources that come from drug trafficking and other criminal theivities.

Finally this is happening.

So you think those killings are justified, then that's what I really want to understand.

Are they justified or are they, as the UN would say, extra judicial killings.

This is about saving lands and Madudo is absolutely conscious and he has been warned what not to do.

These depths are the responsibility of Nicolas Madudo.

He knows and the rest of the drug cartels that is in power in Venezuela that they should stop these activities in order to prevent more deaths, not only of the Venezuela people, but also from people all around the country.

Look, this is very important.

We don't want war.

It was Maduo who started this war.

But I still want to understand how you see the deaths of those individuals, many of them believed to be Venezuelan, who were on those boats when they were struck by the US and mostly in the Caribbean and a few in the Pacific.

You are someone who stands for people's rights, for the rights of Venezuelans, for their democratic rights, for their human rights.

What about the rights to do process of the people who were on those boats.

I certainly defend the rights of everyone, not only Venezuelan's.

That's why my voice are being allowed all along this process.

But you need to understand they have all the international community to understand that this is a very cruel war.

It was Madudo who turned this into an international conflict.

Look when these people expendable, That's really what I'm wondering.

Are those people expendable on the boats?

It was Madudo who insisted on maintaining operations that have consequences.

It is Madudo that started a war against other countries, knowing that that would have consequences.

I am talking about.

This process is about saving lives, millions of lives.

That's what we need to do.

I mean, we have been for years explaining the degree of crimes against humanity that take place in Venezuela and that need to be stopped.

It is systematic, it's massive.

It needs to be stopped.

Finally, finally, there is a reaction from international coalition that is calling things by their names.

My Dudo is not a conventional dictator.

We're facing an arco terrorist structure that has turned Venezuelan territory, Venezuelan resources, Venezuela's institutions, and have turned them into to to favor to the activities of a criminal cartel.

And this language you use narco terrorism, this is exactly the language that the Trump administration uses about Venezuela.

And President Trump is saying, after the boat strikes, the land will be next.

Do you support US military strikes on the territory of Venezuela as part of what you call a process.

I believe that the increase in pressure and the escalation that's taking place is the only way to force Madudo to understand that it's time to go.

And those that still support him, which are very few at this moment, the top brass of the military, financial enablers, you know, from men that are making huge obscene fortunes with the hunger of our people, better understand that.

You know, time is running off, and I believe that this escalation is the last opportunity for those that still support Madudo to understand that they need to put, you know, aside, take to all support away from him and Madudo himself, to understand that this is the last chance to truly facilitate a peaceful and orderly transition, which is what we want, which is what we fought for.

Michelle, I ask you to understand what we Venuzulan people have done.

We've got over thirty five elections, we finally demonstrated we want and that we were attacked.

We've gone through seventeen episodes of dialogue.

In every single one, Ladudo has committed to certain actions and then he has viol related the agreement.

And also we've had one hundred thousands of brother peaceful rallies, demonstrations, and every single time that happens, we are fired.

So we've come and gone through every single institutional means.

But which is exactly why it seems that what you are still saying that you would prefer a peaceful exit of Nicholas Maduro seems so unlikely.

Are you actually saying you've reached the point where you think this regime can only be ended by US military force.

Well, that will depend on what the regime does in the days to come.

I think it was absolutely indispensable to have a credible threat.

I think it was absolutely required to cut the sources of illegal activities because those resources don't go to schools or hospitals.

They are used for repression, for persecution, and certainly for corruption, and also for enlargening scaling up their criminal activities.

Who are you in touch with in the administration?

Who are you having these conversations with most these days?

I will not get into those stales, Michelle, for obvious reasons.

I have to say and insist that I've been in contact not only with several officials in the US government, but also in other countries, in Canada, in Latin America, in the Caribbean, and.

It's the Secretary of State who feels the most strongly.

I certainly believe the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio is one of the people in the administration that better understand the threats that are posed into Latin America and from our region towards the United States.

And are you in regular touch with him?

I have been in touch with him, of course, and with his team, And have to say even further in Congress on both aisles, you know, on both parties.

We have really good friends and champions of our costs.

Because you know, I want to insist that this goes beyond ideological issues.

I mean, it is certainly a matter of national security of the United States, national and hemispheric security, but it also brings and I want to insist on this the biggest opportunity for democracy, for stability and for pings in Owegiin, you know, a transition to democracy in Venezuela will not only mean that we will stop the suffering of millions of my fellow countrymen that are dying as we speak.

Powerty in Venezuela to be is eighty six percent.

Pensions in Venezuela are less than a dollar a month, or children go only twice a week to published schools.

I mean, this is a whole generation that is growing with hunger, without education, and without their parents because they have been forced to leave half.

The country, half the country living in extreme poverty.

Absolutely, and so we will stop this suffering.

We will bring and the people is the main priority for us.

We will bring opportunities, We will bring peace and freedom and respect and solidarity.

But at the same time we will turn this criminal hob in the heart of the Americas because Penninsulan location is absolutely unparallel.

I mean, it's strategic into a security shield and a great ally of Western democracies.

We will dismantle these groups, We will get rid of Russian, Iranian and terrorist actors in our territory.

And these are very these are very big goals what you're describing.

I want to understand this your conversations with the administration.

Have they told you to be ready to become the leader of Venezuela?

Oh?

Absolutely not.

The leader of Venezuela was chosen by our people a year ago.

We who student who stoodent for you?

Okay, But have they told they have they told your team to be ready for an opposition president.

Do you get the feeling that the US is about to bring about regime change?

Is that what you've been told?

No, I've not been told that, and it's not regime change in you know, the conventional way that we've seen before in terms of an external actor taking out a legitimate president.

That is not the case.

First because Madulo is not the legitimate president.

Is the head of a cartel of the songs, is the head of an arcat structure.

Secondly, because regime changed was mandated and proved a year ago, and on July twenty eighth, twenty twenty four.

It's important to recall that we went into election of potential elections in which I was banned from participating.

After I won the primaries by Landslide and Edmunda Gonzale, Surlutia received seventy percent of the vote, and we were able to prove it.

Twenty four hours later.

We have the original Tolley sheets, you know, published in a super robust web page that was scrutinized and analyzed by the whole world.

So the legitimate president elect of Venezuela is Ata nonzalez Uruja.

So this is not regime change.

This is enforcing the will of the Venezuelan people.

Yes, but you see, you did all of that and then nothing changed.

Nicholas Maduro declared victory anyway, and what if again, you are left in this moment where there is no change, perhaps because the administration changes its mind and the previous approach to Venezuela, the more pragmatic approach to Venezuela, which is more into the deals over the oil and more of the exporting of Venezuelan oil, which Chevron, a US company continues to do.

What if you're left high and dry where President Trump loses interest in Venezuela.

The thing here is that from every perspective that you look at is at what's going on in Venezuela.

It is convenient for everyone to have a peaceful transition.

First because one of the main concerns in the region is migration.

You know, almost nine million, a third of our population have been forced to flee for survival.

The minute Madua goes, millions will start planning and coming back home.

So that's that's one side.

Secondly, from your what you mentioned, from the security, energy, security, and business perspective, Venezuela is today in the last place in terms of rule of law globally, last place.

Who is going to invest you know, the kind of amount of money to develop or opportunities under these circumstances, You would have to actually partner with a criminal cartel if you invest in Venezuela nowadays, one that has you know, confiscated and robbed private local and international companies.

We have in Venezuela the largest oil reserves proven oil reserves in the world, the eight reservoir of national natural gas, huge potential in electricity, gold, critical minerals and so on.

These can only be unleashed with a society, with the government that brings order to these chaos, that open markets, that brings rule of that is friendly to international investment.

And then the country that is produced in less than one million barrels a day could reach four, five or six in a decade.

Yeah, and I know your prescription, your economic prescription for Venezuela would be one of rapid privatization.

But I look at these statistics of the huge proportion of the country that's living in poverty, people breaking up their furniture and burning it so that they can cook their meals, and I have to wonder about the people who might be left behind in a big program of privatization, perhaps creating an oligarchy in Venezuela.

How would you ensure that that doesn't happen.

That's a super important point, Shell because the base of our movement have been precisely the most humble and vulnerable sectors of society.

It is impressive, you know, I was told when we started the movement two and a half years ago, we went back to, you know, the most rural sectors that it was impossible to bring back together a country that had been divided by the Shadista regime in so many dimensions, you know, racial, rich and poor, black and white, those living in urban areas, those in rural sectors.

And we went out, reached out and tear down those barriers around values, common values.

And you know what the most single strong force and desire that bring us together was we want our children back home.

Those that have left, we want them back home.

And that's a long that every single Venezuelan mother has today and that that are Manday.

Yeah, and you need to go back to your way to attract those people.

Yeah.

But precisely what we have learned is that system that Madudo has with and chalisome place, you know, the social Chavista socialism.

They do want people to be equal, equally poor, equally dependent on the regime.

They need people to be uneducated, They need people to live, you know, in sadness because families are separated.

In order to have a country, to be able to compete and to have opportunities for all, we need to invest in education, in health, in social opportunities, and of course we need investments.

We need huge investments that will create employment in our country.

And I tell you I want my primary process with ninety three percent.

And I was precisely promoting these ideas to defend private property, to give opportunity to all, to not let one child behind.

And that's precisive.

What's going to be you know President Malay in Argentina, who you have politically and ideologically something in common with.

You're both from the political right.

What he is doing in Argentina involves the free market.

It also involves a lot of austerity.

And Venezuelans, after suffering for so many years on the Travis in Maduro, they wouldn't be signed up to austerity, would they.

Now what we have called or economy program is stabilization and expansion, okay, which means we need to put First of all, we need to put order.

Currently, nobody knows what are the level of anusun reserves, what is our debt, how much do we export, what is our budget?

It's a black box.

And we need to put order so that we can open market and create opportunities for aud Certainly in the first moments of this transition, we will need to invest, you know, heavily, not only infrastruction and public services, help watch power supply, which we have shortages today all along the country, and certainly take care of the most vulnerable sectors of our population, which we have already identified, and we have designed emergency plans to have transfers, direct transfers to these sectors that are in a critical situation while the economy moves ahead.

If you get the chance, and it is still a big if we will.

I'm still not sure what gives you so much confidence.

Let me tell you something.

All my life, but mostly in the last three years, I've been told that everything we were doing was impossible, That you know, we simply should give up and accept that Venezuela had been destroyed for good.

That it was impossible to get a country back together with hope, That it was impossible to carry out a primary process without the regime stubbing it, and it was impossible to defit Maduro and even further to prove it.

And it wasn't possible to resist these fifteen months of the worst repression we've seen ever, and our people have demonstrated such huge resilience courage.

But you have not overthrown him.

It's really important to have that reality check.

You have not overthrown him that yet, what are you planning to do within the country next?

Are you going to call people out on the streets.

We have been organizing this vast months as we build an impressive citizen network last year with over one million volunteers.

That's really a case studied so far for people in different parts of the country the world that are you know, asking us, getting our advice and learning from what we did, and the regime didn't see it coming using technology, by the way, And that's you know, for another long conversation, because it's remarkable what we were able to do now these last months we've been organizing as well, you know, underground, taking you know, care of each other, finding ways to communicate safely.

Is a total decentralized structure.

I'm talking about hundreds of thousands of people in communication in real time in order to assure that we will have a peaceful transition.

Because you know, I've heard so many concerns regarding what this group might do, or Madudo would like or certain you know, head of state, and always they miss the most important force here, which is the people.

Ninety percent of Anaizan people are together.

This is the most cohesive society in the world without you know, racial, religious, social tensions, so that you know.

The guarantee that this will be irreversible and stable is the people.

And yes, people will come out when the correct moment arrives, and that's been built as we speak.

Isn't the fact that you to achieve the peaceful transition that you describe, you need the US military, You need more of what is happening in the region of the coast of Venezuela, the drones, all of this kind of US military pressure.

Well, I think that history has mallistrated that that's correct.

We have gone and done everything that ought to be done.

We have been building popular strength and organization, which is also required.

We have a legitimate president who was elected by a landslide.

We have a united opposition forces.

We have everything, and we are ready to take our government.

That's very important as well.

We have the teams, we have the plans, we need what we are to do the first one hundred hours, the first one hundred days.

And certainly we now need the international community aligned with the United States because this is a transnational conflict and operation.

So certainly we need the international community to act.

And why law enforcement That's another issue that it's important to insist.

We have been asking Latin American European governments to have full disclosure of all the information that they have and we know they have regarding the criminal activities of Madudo and his chronis.

And I have to say, much of Madudo's resources and criminal resources end up in their financial system.

So it's time for these countries to move ahead.

Europe has been taken some steps recently in this matter.

Do you think that Nicholas Maduro will end up in a US court?

He's been indicted for some years now on drugs related charges.

When you spoke to President Trump, is that what you asked him for to extract mister Maduro.

No, I'm not going to get into the details of the operations because I've never discussed that with the high officials.

That's an operation of the United States.

I mean, that's totally autonomous, independent operation of another country regarding their national security.

Regarding Madula's future, that depends on him.

We offered in Mundo Gonzales Aruta, Presidentalette and myself the day we won, and from then on the Radula Regin the possibility of a negotiated transition in which we offered guarantees and incentives.

They have refused that on and on and instead they have attacked us.

So Madudo, as I said, has very few time left to make up the decision in terms of where he will go next.

Do you think part of President Trump's interest is linked to his beliefs around the twenty twenty election and the allegation that voting machines and people close to Maduro's circle were involved in the the election that he believes with wrongly believes was stolen from him in twenty twenty.

Well, on the first hand, I have no doubt that Yukolahmluro or Herodriguez and many others are you know, the masterminds of a system that has rea elections in many countries, including the US.

I have no doubt about that.

And they are totally involved in wrongdoing in many countries.

And I mean there's currently an investigation going on in the United States and in other countries as well.

I have no idea if that has or not any influence in present transisision.

But I will tell you something, a transition to democracy in Venezuela will not only bring security to the region, stability to the region, it will ensure energy security for the US and other countries because of Venezuela has huge potential, will turn our country from the criminal hub of the Americas into the energy hub of the Americas, the technology hub of Americas because we will have cheap, reliable electricity in amounts that no other country can produce right now in the region.

But most important of our people, we will bring a country and nation back together.

We will have millions of family reuniting and turning these chaos into an orderly, free, democratic society.

It is all about peace, yes, but in order to have peace, you require freedom, and we Venasulans have demonstrated that when you face a criminal structure, you need strength to secure freedom.

It's a very hard and painful lesson, but believe me, this is something we won't inherit for future generations.

I want to ask you about how you cope with the lows, because you do speak with energy and conviction, despite fifteen months in hiding, and despite you saw an election stolen from you at that moment and the regime is still in power.

You face isolation from your family as well, who are out of the country.

What keeps you going well?

I would say trust.

I always trust our people.

I have always trusted the conviction and commitment and love that then shone people have demonstrated.

This long journey has turned into another person.

I've learned so much about my country, about myself.

Do you want to be president yourself?

Well, of course I've said that, I've run for that, but that's not my obsession right now.

Believe me, I have one goal, and we will liberate our country and we will make these new generations and our children, and I believe I have millions of children absolutely proud to be Venezuelan.

Where do you think you'll be in a year from now?

Because even as I hear you speak, I'm conscious that it's twenty seven years since Yugoshavez who was first elected and he was succeeded by Nicholas Maduur.

There have been many times along the way when people thought this is the end for the regime and it hasn't happened.

Now, Yes, where do you think you'll be in one year?

How will be working very hard in building a country that it's going to be the brightest nation in the world, and it's going to be a proud nation for what we went through and I know what you mean.

This has been very long.

We have had opportunities in the past.

We have committed mistakes, we have underestimated the regime.

Certain sectors left us alone or betrayed us in the past.

But this is a totally different situation, absolutely different, I believe.

Finally, our main highlights internationally understand the true nature and the urgency for a transition to take place.

Secondly, we have done legitimacy.

We want an election.

We have you know, the will of the people behind us.

Third, the regime is weaker than ever.

The fractures, the factions, treasons within the regime are growing as we speak.

And finally, I think the most important thing with the venezon people have already decided to be free and to go till the end.

And this includes the military doubles.

You know, more than eighty percent of them are joining and will be part of this orderly transition as soon as it starts.

Maria Karina, my shadow, thanks very much for talking to us today.

Thank you, thank you.

I look forward to hosting you in a Free Venezuela very in the show.

And that's the Michelle Hussein Show for this week.

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