Welcome to the net Palty.

Hello, and welcome to another celebrating Superman edition of Missing Frames.

I am your host, Sean Eastridge.

Normally, on Missing Frames, we watch all of the movies we should have seen by this point in our lives.

But you know better than that.

You know I am a massive Superman fan.

So the majority of episodes I've released this year have not been actual Missing Frames episodes, but really just an excuse for me to celebrate my love of Superman by interviewing all of my favorite writers, artists, actors, anyone I can talk to who is involved with making this incredible character as awesome as he is.

I've been talking to them and it's all because I was just thrilled about James Gunn's new movie.

It's still in theaters, but not for much longer, so make sure you go check it out while you still can, and you know you'll be able to watch it at home, but still go to the movie theater.

Be a good a good sport.

Be a good sport.

But anyway, I've spoken with amazing super people like Mark Wade, Jason Aaron, Dan Jurgens, Philip Kennedy, Johnson.

In my last episode, I even had Ma Kent herself Neva Hal on the show to talk about her role in James's new film, and that's barely the tip of the iceberg.

There are so many more interviews available for you to listen to literally right now, so make sure to check them out.

If you like what you're hearing, feel free to leave a review.

You can even share these episodes with your super friends.

I would greatly appreciate it.

So in today's episode, I'm talking with none other than the Superman Group Editor for DC Comics, Paul Kaminski.

This is the guy who is overseeing pretty much every single super book on the shelves, all of them, but pretty much all of them.

He works with writers to craft story ideas, he makes sure everything gets out on time, and he makes sure to release as many Superman books as possible to ensure that DC gets all of my money all of the time.

And you know what the worst part is, I don't even care.

They've got so many amazing Superman comics out right now, they can have my money.

I'll give it to them willingly.

What is wrong with me?

But Paul, I mean, he's awesome and he so clearly loves the character, which is just great to hear.

It's just nice to know that the people making Superman stories right now love the character.

So we discuss why Superman is essentially the designated driver of the DC universe.

That doesn't make sense now, it will make sense when you listen.

We talk about what it's like overseeing multiple Superman books that responsibility.

We talk about our reactions to James Gunn's film, and of course we talk about all of the exciting things Paul and his team have in store for Superman fans throughout the rest of the year, and that includes the DCKO initiative, and we even get some teases on things beyond that.

What kind of teases you ask, You will just have to listen to the episode to find out.

But seriously, I had such a great time with Paul.

Huge thanks to him for hanging out.

Let's go ahead and celebrate Superman with Paul Kaminski.

Now available to own non video cassette.

Paul, this must be an insane year for you, because how long have you been editing Superman specifically?

Well, I've been at DC now this is my tenth year, so I've been here ten years in a couple of months.

Congratulations, to you.

Thanks.

I started the supergroup.

I came in as an associate editor, so I was working on some Superman titles back then, and then I was actually I solo edited the super line for just a hot minute, right before Brian Michael Bendis came on, and then I was sort of out in the woods.

I was in the Justice League group for a while and then the Batman group for a while, and that was cool because it allowed me to work on a lot of properties.

In fact, at DC, I've had the say honor actually of editing most of the core cast at this point, so I got a run on Wonder Woman and Detective and all those things, not the core Batman but in and around the world of Gotham.

But that allowed me, inevitably, through circumstance and just good timing, to be back with the supertitles.

So I've been group editor of the Superman books now since the top of twenty twenty two, and it's exactly where I wanted to be because I love Superman.

I love Superman so much, and that's when I had to leave Superman.

I feel really sad because I felt that I hadn't really done everything I wanted to do with the character.

I worked on all the Dan Jurgen's rebirth stuff.

I love that, some of my favorite stuff.

Yeah, we had a good time, and then I worked on some of the tamasigles and stuff right at the end there before I left the super Office, but I always felt like I had unfinished business.

So it was really nice to come back and actually this time be able to chart the course because when I started as an associate, I wasn't really charting any course.

I was sort of following what my direct reports were doing with the character.

And this allowed me to be like, Okay, here's kind of what I like.

I like this, I like that, and I was able to implement them.

So it was a I tell you I I was very happy when that happened, and that continues.

Before the call we were talking, I feel very creatively fulfilled right now.

I'm in a really good place with the books.

I feel great about all the stuff I work on.

So it's a really fun time to be working on these comics, and especially now when everybody is talking about Superman again.

Yes, that doesn't always happen, you know, no it doesn't.

Well, first of all, it comes through in the works.

It's so delights me because you know, we've never met before.

This is my first time meeting you.

But I'm obviously a huge, huge Superman fan.

I've been reading all these books and what's clear is you're the right man for the job, which makes me so happy that you're the one doing it that you love clearly love this so much that as a fan fills me with so much joy because you want to feel like the people behind the scenes are genuinely passionate and happy about it.

But like you said, this year in particular, but you all, I mean twenty twenty two, I feel like was that when James and Peter took over, because I feel like that was where you started to feel there was a shift and it was like, oh, this is going to be interesting.

And then not long after the announcement came that James is going to be writing and then directing Superman.

I knew Superman film, so a lot of that was I feel like it was twenty not long after that, twenty twenty two to twenty twenty three, so it's almost like you jumped on right at the point where this craziness was starting to kick off.

And now obviously it's crested with the release of the film.

But is that timing right.

Maybe somewhere around there.

I mean, we're pretty disconnected DC Comics from some of those inner workings of how the theatrical stuff gets assembled.

But we have had since a lot of direct conversation with Saffron and the team about the characters just in general, and what we found was that their instincts were good, they had the right heads on their shoulders, and it was nice to know we had one of us on the inside this time with Tom King, because however you feel about Tom as a writer, he knows these characters and it has been at it for a long time, and so it.

Was I love him as a writer.

He's just a terrible person.

No, I'm kidding.

I had Tom on the show and it was an absolute blast.

Yeah, I love Tom too.

You know, Supergirl a Woman of Tomorrow is one of the more definitive statements on a character at DC, especially in the Superman line, that I can think of.

Right, It's kind of everything you wanted out of that project because it gave direction to a character that can often feel like an afterthought, even though she's definitely not.

But it gave her so much more distinct personality, and so, yeah, Tom is very gifted.

So it was nice to know that we had a guy on the inside this time, right, Tom was in there, and Tom could at least tell them, no, you can't do this.

Obviously, we don't really know James Gunn personally, at least I don't.

Jim Lee does a little bit, because they grew up in the same town.

They're about the same age.

But and there's a legend that they probably saw Superman in the same theater, so we're told Superman, the Donn Superman.

Yeah, and he's clearly a comic fan, right, but you know, you never really know with us.

It's just like the Hollywood people and the comic book people.

There sometimes feels like there's a divide and so you never really can quite tell.

But obviously are There was no need to fear because as kind of clearly as a comic book person through and through like that stuff is in his blood.

But we knew that they the studio instincts were going to be good because they had comic people involved.

And then yeah, I don't know if it was around that time or not, but it was when I joined to be the group editor to to sort of lead the super line in that way.

It was at a time where Clark had been away for a while.

In Action comics, Phil Kennedy Johnson was telling a great story with the War World stuff and all of that, but Clark was away, you know, dressed as a gladiator and doing gladiatorial things.

And there wasn't a Superman title.

For the first time in a really long time, there actually wasn't a Superman title.

There was Superman's Son of Kalel, which is was the was the swap for the Superman title at that time, but no just Superman title.

So it was a weird time to come in.

But so I in a lot of ways, I was lucky because I was the guy who got to come in and say, all these things are great, but let's let's see if we can have the iconic Superman on the page, and which does not take a genius to recommend, by the way, I just have impeccable timing there because I was able to say it at the right Now you.

Can take the credit and say, like I mean, I am kind of a genius.

I mean, well, you know, yeah, just run with that, run with that.

Well, I appreciate that, but it wasn't It wasn't anything groundbreaking to say we should to go back to basics.

But what we did was we tried to put a fresh code of paint on it.

So the opposite of what we wanted to do was nostalgia, Like that is not to me.

Nostalgia is you know, it can be fun and stuff and small doses, but if you start to get addicted to that, it's like catch yoursell White or something in the Star Trek world, you find yourself not being able to live without it.

So what we did was kind of I took the approach that Mark and I did with World's Finest, which was okay, take the kind of core of this and then put a really nice code of paint, fresh modern code of paint on it.

So that's when Josh Williamson came aboard and Jamal Campbell came aboard.

Josh Williamson very punchy, kind of modern writer.

He and I are both big fans of the animated series, and so we were able to look at the line and go, well, actually, that's that's how you do it, like the animated series, how you do it the Bruce tim one because what they did was they took the best of George Reeves and Christopher Reeve and the nineties stuff and silver Age and all that, and they kind of put in a blender and came out in this one very sleek looking package.

So that's what we tried to do.

We try to channel the animated series in that way, and I hope we were successful.

I was really happy to see on the wall when James Gunn was posting about working on the thing, I was happy to see amongst his issues on the wall there was the Superman one that Josh and Jamal did.

It was such a great cover.

Happy to see that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I think that's a long way of saying I think our instincts were aligned with the studio in that way because they kind of did the same thing, although they went a little more comic bookie in some ways than even we did in the Common's.

Sexually, they went a little more old school for sure, which is great.

The movie has like a crazy silver Age vibe.

It really does.

I was shocked, to be honest, I was shocked that they did that because I just I guess in my head, there's so many suits that would be standing in the way of something like that that I just couldn't believe the audacity of that choice in a good way, Like, Wow, you're not embarrassed to be a comic book movie at all.

Yes, I'm reading a lot of Legion of Superheroes right now, and that series, to me, is at its best when everyone is calling each other by their silly names and and they're doing these these wacky things and then you and then you put the drama in there, right, but like that is Legion of Superheros, like the Paul Levitt's Keith Giffen era of that book is not ashamed to be a superhero comic.

And then you read other eras that are a little embarrassed by it, and you suddenly see it start to not work as well.

It is funny how that work, Like you know, the and this is I think part of why Donner's film was so brilliant is you know, early on, when they were writing that script and developing the film, it was more kind of a parody and sort of like this is kind of silly, isn't it.

And Donner recognized like, no, no, no, if we do that, the whole thing falls apart.

We've got to at the core of it, respect it, and you feel it.

When you watch or read or consume these art forms that are not treating the stuff respectfully, you feel it and it does, like you said, it falls apart.

It doesn't work.

I've been in Superhero I've watched Superhero movies.

I should say I've watched Superhero films where I walked out of the theater going, I don't think the director liked this character.

Yeah, and it kind of made me feel bad.

Actually, yes, yeah, so I was happy to see a director clearly like the character.

And Korn sweat my god, that guy perfect, no notes, amazing, and Brsannon too.

Lois Lane was pitch perfect too.

Yeah, everyone in that movie is great, you know, and talking about just the more outlandish, comic booky crazy stuff that you would never expect to see in a mainstream twenty twenty five Superhero movie.

I was telling a friend, I was like, you know, the second time I saw Superman.

The first time, I was super overwhelmed, But there was a moment the second time I watched it.

It's when they're in the Pocket universe and Superman is being sucked into the black hole and he's he as Crypto is flying up to him.

He's like, oh my, it's a black hole, Crypto, We'll never make it, like we gotta get out of here, and totally unprompted, totally unexpected, I started to get a little choked up and a little teary eyed, and I realized I was like, what the hell is happening to me?

Like I'm I've broken.

But what it was is that realization of like I never thought I would see a Superman movie where that is a line in the movie, like like Crypto like we gotta come come here, boy, you gotta help me out, like I And then that just hit me and like, for whatever reason, my brain wasn't ready for it, so full raw emotional reaction to that moment.

But it's like it's so good.

Yeah, it doesn't.

I saw some review somewhere, maybe it was just from somebody, some creator who was talking about it and said, I really like a movie that doesn't treat me like an idiot, or comic book movie that doesn't treat me like an idiot or treat the audience like an idiot.

And what they meant by that, I don't remember who it was, So I apologize whoever it was, but what they meant by that was that Superman movie.

There's a lot of plot that they ask you to just go along with and to understand.

In fact, it goes against a lot of what I was taught about editorial, because I was taught by some people who were like, well, you really got to beat people over the head with this stuff, set it up properly and all that, and I think to a degree that's more often than not true.

It's not a bad approach.

Yeah, But there's also an approach where Lex Luthor is just walking around and then suddenly he starts talking about a pocket universe and you can either go what or yeah, I guess I kind of understand what that is, right, Like pocket.

Pocket universe with angry monkey internet bots writing Rage twenty four to seven and on the Internet, like at a certain like it's the audacity of just embracing it fully.

But at the core of it, at the core of it, you know what it is.

It's like you can you can go zany, you can go a little zany.

The differences, like you said, you can tell when the person behind the whole enterprise loves what they're doing.

Yeah, And that's the difference is, you know, I guess an example of a zany comic book movie like the Schumacher Batman movies, which are constantly panned, and I don't know that Schumacher was necessarily a big Batman fan, and you can kind of tell I think that's why people who are not fans of those movies.

But I think with something like this, you give a little bit more leeway and you're willing to go there when you sense maybe the purity of what's going on and what's happening and the intention behind it.

Yeah, much like every artist draws themselves on the page, Like whenever you meet one of your favorite artists, you're like, woy, you look a little like every drawing you've ever done.

You can tell the same with a director and their approach to these characters, especially characters who've been around for a long time, like you look at Schumacher.

And by the way, I love Batman Forever because I was I was at the right age.

Yes, no, no joke.

I've said this on the record.

I'll say it again.

Batman Forever.

Of those four Burton Shoemacher movies, it's my favorite, like and I think it's the only one that actually tries to look at who Bruce Wayne is as a character, as opposed to just he's just Batman and let's pay attention to Jack Nicholson instead.

Sure, I always love that.

You're like, wait, wait, wait, Sean, pull it back.

I wasn't ready to go that far.

Well no, I mean, well, I don't know actually if I would go to that part.

But but what I mean by that is you can tell he's a fan of sixty six.

Yes, and so there's no hiding that right when the director really feels strongly about what they think a character is, like, it's a you can tell immediately, so much like an artist draw themselves in, you're drawing your own influences, or writing rather your own influences, or directing your own influences into what you do.

And so yeah, I think I think this was what James Gunn made, and everybody who helped make it is a testament to comic books as a storytelling medium and a love letter to the franchise in ways that I was shocked by and just overjoyed.

I was like, man, it's so nice to see somebody who is not afraid to make a comic book movie.

Yeah, but also not ashamed of Superman as a character, because I think maybe with some approaches to Superman, you try to say, like, well, it's a little corny, let's steer away from that, or I don't believe like a guy that powerful can be that good, and let's go in this direction and maybe deconstruct it a little bit.

And I think if you're going that route, you're missing the point and you're missing what makes that character special.

So to so fully like to have this big movie so fully embrace it and say, yeah, he is a little bit corny, he is a little bit goofy.

He is kind of a dweeb.

That's all part of who Superman is, and that's what makes him so special.

That's very, very exciting, And especially the idea of like let's have this amazing powerful being be a good, kind person.

As sad as it is, it feels revolutionary right now to have that be so prominent, this powerful being is like, oh, it's just a good person.

Weird that we need that as an example these days?

Well yeah, I mean we're reflection of our times, right, So, but I think it was somebody also drew the comparison online to like Ted lasso or somebody like that, where you look at that and you're like, it doesn't mean that character can have flaws, but that character can be genuinely kind and have it not read flat if you approach it with the right angles.

So I think James Gunn did that.

I was really impressed.

I was.

I was baffled, you know, because I was like, actually, my first thought was like, how are how's the public going to react to this?

I yes, I really didn't know leaving that thing because I watched it with a lot of Superman fans, right, So it's one thing to do that, and there's one thing to be like, how is John Q.

Driveway going to digest this?

And they did, and that is that was very heartening to see.

Yes, very much.

So do you, like, what is your earliest memory of the character of Superman, Like, do you have a specific memory or is it something like you've always loved this character, always known this character, or can you pinpoint a moment where you were like, wait a second, I think I might might be a fan of this guy.

Yeah.

My first graphic novel was the Death of Superman, So I got that that first very first printing of that.

How old are you.

Oh gosh, I don't know.

I mean, I have a memory of buying Superman.

I forget what is sh it is?

Actually it's the cover with Cyborg Superman on the cover, where's holding the American flag?

So it must I couldn't, I must.

What's that ninety four something like?

So I must have been nine, nine ten.

But my memories are primarily of the film.

I had a copy of three Superman three on VHS that I very distinct.

That movie made an impression on me, and then I watched the George Reeve Reeves Show with my dad a lot, and so that was another marker for me.

Although it's funny because the George Reeves Show is very little to do seemingly with the Christopher Reeve films.

Yeah, just because like Superman is so dashing in that, or I should say, Clark Kent is so dashing in that he is not the bumbling figure we see in other media.

No, there almost is.

No it's funny.

You know.

I've gone back and watched the George Reeves and there are moments in the show where he's just not even wearing the glasses and they're like, wow, Clark, and they're like so wait what So there is no there is no disguise.

He's not even pretending.

It's that's that's George Reaves, that's Georgere's Superman.

But it's fine because it works with a wink and a nod.

You know, he's got a smile that could just like corn sweat and and Christopher Reeve and even even Brandon Ralth.

I would argue to that extent, like there's a there's a smile there that can sell a lot.

And ye.

When he's winking at you, you're like.

Yeah, you know what, you know what?

Fine?

I take this.

Yeah.

But but it's funny because the cartoon really plays Clark that way.

He's not bumbling at all.

He's more like George Reeves, where he's you know, kind of dapper, kind of always looks like a million bucks.

Yeah.

I don't know.

There's something to both approaches.

Actually, I'm not sure which one I like more.

I was gonna ask, like, is there a preference, because I you know, I love it is no secret to anybody who knows me that I adore the Donner film.

But I can understand the frustration of a Clark Kent that is so so such a parody and so goofy.

Yeah that it's like, but who, like, that's not even a real person really, So there is a part of me that almost feels like, oh, can we pull it back a little bit and maybe find that balance.

I don't know, if you watch Superman and Lois, I thought Tyler Hecklin did a really great job doing the clerk in the Superman thing.

Uh yeah, and my Adventures with Superman yes, yeah, cartoon like that is a good example too, where he's he walks that line where he's like sort of lovable and and by being lovable therefore feels kind of cuddly and approachable.

But he's not like knocking stuff over like clearly, Like he's like he's built like a football player.

That's why we kind of play him in the comics now he's sort of like he's kind of a goofball, but he's also like a handsome goofball, you know.

So well, it's also like currently in the comics he doesn't so much of and this applies to My Adventures with Superman as well, but so much.

I think of the most mainstream popular view of Superman is, oh, nobody knows who he is, and like that's his secret identity.

So in the current run, a lot of the people around him know who he is Lois.

They're married, they have kids, you know, like they they know who he is.

So I think a lot of that it allows for a little bit more flexibility.

I think when the people closest to him are in on the joke, he doesn't have to pretend as hard to do that, and it's kind of it's it's fun.

And I thought that was a really interesting, cool take that you know, James had like right from the get go to be like, oh, they're together, she knows Like it's like I just see the audience who somehow has missed every single trailer and commercial being like what they're making out?

What's happening?

Like, well, I don't know what to believe.

I was relieved, Yeah, because you lose.

I mean it's fun and you love that kind of like is she gonna find out?

But then you realize we've had almost one hundred years of that interpretation on the big screen and uh, you know that's the one we're most used to it, So to go that route, you automatically it's like, well, we don't have to we don't have to do all the building of this relationship and we don't have to do the like how does she not know he's Clark.

It's like we don't have to think about any of that.

We're just diving right into this.

Yeah, there's plenty of drama in a marriage.

I tend to fall on the camp of, like, you know, some people really don't like some people work in comics really don't like getting characters together or marrying them and stuff.

And I can see that because there's there is an element of like it it does rob a little bit of the will they won't they?

Yeah, it's the cheers thing.

It's a cheers er.

I would look at like the office and you'd say like, Okay, well, yeah, you know, Jim, Jim and Pam are gonna get I'm sorry spoilers everybody.

You know, Jim and Pam are going to get together, obviously, but like it's a little more compelling when you're not quite sure or if it's just on the tip of their tongue.

Like so, I do understand that for dramatic purposes, but at this point, like in this day and age, like it's fine, Like there's there's still drama there, and you know what I would point like, we've been finding that drama now for decades with these characters.

You look back on the Jeff Low of Joe Kelly stuff in the early two thousands, and they were finding drama there.

You know, they were playing with that Lois and Clark dynamic, and there was you know, they would never quite go and tease like a breakup or something, but like there's there's drama in a marriage, and if you're you know, clever at it, you can treat that the same way as they're being drama with characters with a lot of power.

Because one of the things we hear a lot is that it's hard to write Superman because he's got so much power.

And yeah, I guess I don't know, like sure, like that could be hard for some people, but I don't know, it's just about finding drama in a different way, I guess.

Yeah.

And also i'd like there are things you can play with, you can tone down the powers, you can mess like and it's kind of what you know Burne in the Triangle era, like the Jurgons and that whole team during the nineties, it's like you can't quite push the moon out of orbit and create a solar eclipse.

But you know it's he's still pretty powerful.

He's just you can get beat up a little bit more.

Yeah, So you know, I kind of felt the same way about like, hey, I never bought into that mindset of he's too powerful, there's nothing you can do with that.

But I would even argue, you know, I think I think the Rebirth run that that Peter Tamassi and Patrick Leeson did, and and Dan Jurigen's and then Superman and Lois the TV show, I think are the perfect examples of how you can tell compelling stories even with a quote unquote domesticated version of Superman.

There's drama to be found, there are great stories to be found.

I would even say, like, I think the Rebirth run might be my favorite Superman run.

And I can't say I've read them all, but I've got to say, like, I think that dynamic is just having a kid.

Bringing a kid into that was was so brilliant, and I think it provides just a level of emotion that feels so in tune with Superman because I think a lot of people see Superman it's like he's kind of like the dad.

He's gonna make sure like you're gonna get home, okay, Right, I'm the I'm he's the designated driver, So it kind of makes sense that the next step and his character would be like have a kid, and like, what is it actually like to see Superman as a dad in developing a father son relationship.

I'm a dad now, so like it hits me on a whole different level.

So it's I think it works, and I don't know.

I don't I think I'm old enough now that you know, Superman has always been my favorite.

I understood the sort of rebellious impulse to love Batman and be like Superman sucks because you know, Batman's a badass, but I never felt that way.

But even in my older age, I feel like even more secure in accepting Superman as like he's my guy.

I just love that vibe and I love that feeling of like this guy takes care of you.

Yeah, he feels like a friend.

And that's a great way to put it, Like a designated driver, but not like a designated driver who's like pissed about it, like a driver who's like a longer every fun yes, Like what.

He's just like, are you okay?

Am?

I?

Yeah?

Yeah, Okay, give me your Paul, give me your keys, like we're gonna like, I'll get you home, don't worry.

It's it's the he's not gonna judge.

You, and that's there's a respect inherent to that, and that's ultimately Superman at his core.

He respects you enough to know that, given the tools, you will do the right thing.

So I think that that's the distinction there, and people write him like that.

One of the things that always annoys me with some people's take on Superman is when he's written like a school principle and it's not a finger waggy thing.

It's more of what you're saying.

It's a designated driver.

It's somebody who's there with you with the hand on the shoulder, like I'm you know, don't worry, I'm here to help.

We got to get through this, and we might even have like fun with it, like you know, we can have fun, like this is gonna be great.

I'll put on your favorite song in the car, like it's gonna be awesome.

Like, but he's also you know, he's the guy.

You know.

I I don't drink, so I've been the designated driver.

I don't know how many times I've had somebody who I am designated driving home and and they are just like, oh, Sean, I'm so sorry, Like I just you must hate me.

And I'm like, I don't hate you, like you're okay, And I just feel like that's Superman, like the guy, like the guy sitting next to him, and the vibe he gives is not, like you said, not judgmental.

It's not the principle pointing the finger.

It's like the person may be a mess, but I think that person who's a mess looks at Clark, looks at Superman and says, I want to live up to what that guy thinks of me.

I'm not saying these people are looking at me saying that and saying like, god, Sean, you're so amazing.

I think that's how people look at Superman.

I think that's how he inspires them, is not by judging, but by sheer action and just showing the example, showing the way people look at that and say, you know what, maybe maybe tomorrow I'll have a few less drinks and I'll be a little bit less of a mess.

Sure, so I'm a little more coherent and that.

But that friendship thing, that respect that's contagious, and I think that that's a that's a nice lesson to take from Superman, is that even though he's fictional, like you can actually learn something from a character like that and feel like you've walked away with something of value in your life.

When I was a kid, I was a diehard sort of Marvel Zombie X Men fan, and I always felt like after reading X Men, I walked away with a better handle on like acceptance and racism and all those factors and things that play into the morality play of the X Men.

But with Superman, it's funny.

Even though I was on the playground, like waving X Men comics in the air like a preacher on Sunday, I would never say a bad word about Superman because why would I, Like, it would never even have occurred to me to say a bad word about Superman.

Like it's just there's something about him that, like you said, feels like a friend and felt like I could if I could be kind like him, then maybe I would be a slightly better person, you know, just makes me feel better to have him around looking at me.

So I'm always surrounded by Superman statues and stuff.

Yeah, No, it's true.

And like when you when you got involved in Common and you got involved in editing, you talk a little bit about like, you know, Superman is kind of where it feels like that's the guy, that's who you want to be with, and that's what you're enjoying so much right now, Like what was the journey that got you there?

Like was there were you kind of leaning into that direction and sort of saying to everyone who would listen, like, you know, he opens up for Superman.

I'm just saying I would like to like give me a little bit of background on like how you got into this.

Sure.

Yeah, And when I was a kid, I was just consuming every com book I could and making my own.

I had a whole comic book company that I would My mom bless her, was photocopying for me at school, and I was selling subscriptions on the playground.

They're all original characters, and.

I'd asscause it was it.

My My stories when I was a kid were all like rip offs of Oh I'd seen but but original characters.

Kudos to you.

Well, okay, original characters with the plot of Star Wars.

But sure, sure, but I had crossover.

I had everything, and so I, you know, comics.

I was actually, funnily enough, I was doing exactly the same thing I'm doing now at nine years old, house ads everything.

And so when I was a senior in high school, I was all set to go off and become a history teacher or something.

And then a representative from SVA, the School Visual Arts in New York, came to talk at my high school, and, much to my parents, while it's dismay, I discovered there was a cartooning program, and I went, what I could go to school for comics and I wanted to go to the Joe Cuband School.

My parents said I had to have a four year degree, and so I thought, well, it sucks for you.

Then this is expensive school, but I did so I went to SVA to try and learn how to do it be Jim.

I wanted to be Jim Lee, and I did graduate, but I did not graduate as Jim Lee, and so I thought, well that was fun.

And I did some political cartooning for a while for my local paper in New Jersey, and then through happenstance, I got a job in the production department at Archie Comics and I started their boxing day two thousand and seven, I was doing all kinds of art corrections and stuff, and it was really read.

And then I found my way to editorial, and editorial allowed me to work with writers and artists and to hire the artists and writers that I admired and work with them to make the comics and to craft the universe a bit more and to be hands on, but also know where my strengths and weaknesses were.

And so I have an art background, which is really helpful.

But now I can hire the people who can actually execute this stuff the way it ought to be and not the way I felt like where my shortcomings were.

So I was I was in licensed comics for a while.

I did song like the Hedgehog and Mega Man for many years, and I had a blast doing that.

But what I was doing was Superhero comics through that lens of Sonic and Mega Man.

When DC moved out West, not everybody joined Kyo and I excuse me.

So I interviewed.

I interviewed a couple of times, and I got in on the third try and moved out West with DC Comics.

Wait, what was the role?

Was it just assistant editor At the.

Time, it was associate So there's an editorial, there's an assistant editor, an associate editor, an editor, a senior editor, a group editor, an executive editor, and then editor in chief.

So I at the time was executive editor at Archie.

So I took quite a title cut to go over to DC, but that I did it knowing like this is really where I want to be, right And so I came in as an associate, which means you can edit a couple of titles and then assist on others.

So I was assisting on some titles that's action.

I was assisting on action, and then I was editing.

I did a book called Starfire by Palmiatti and Amanda Connor.

I worked a little on Red Hood and Arsenal.

I worked on a book with Hobby Fernandez, who's doing Plug Plug Plug, our new event d c KO coming this October.

Yeah, and he and I did a book called Doomed, which was an interesting book but touched the Superman place a little bit because it took place with a kid who got the powers of Doomsday and sort of like a Hulk analog thing and anyway, Yeah, so then I was I was there at the ground floor for Rebirth and just got inundated it was like going to going to school again.

Actually, because we were editorial was all trained extensively in that time by Jeff John's.

We would all sit in these rooms with Jeff and he would talk to us about how comics are made from his point of view, and we got just this incredible course and I always felt I felt very grateful for that because it taught me a lot in that time.

And then Rebirth we did Supersuns and I got to you know, I got to do super Sons with Horiyemenez and Pete Tamasi.

I've actually touched every Superson's issue and then yeah, super Sons was great.

I did Supergirl and Superwoman was me and boy, yeah, there's been a lot of titles.

Man, I mean that was what was that twenty fifteen sixties?

Yeah, I started twenty fifteen.

Rebirth was twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen.

Wow, what we did Reborn.

Yeah.

My little claim to fame is that you see it sometimes on merchandise.

D It's not a claim to fame, you know that the red the belt Okay, rebirth, Yes, yeah, there was a rebirth belt.

In fact, I bought this toy just because this belt is on here, so that belt was meant to I need the people can't see this.

But it's the red belt, yellow little yellow diamond in the center.

And then it dips down a little.

And this dip down bit was me trying to replicate the trunks, right, because at the time we were forbidden to do the trunks.

So I thought, o, truck, I'll have the middle bit down a little, so it kind of has the shape of the trunks.

And I remember drawing it on the board, the white board in the Superman office at the time, and they were looking at me like, well, he seems real excited about it, So I guess we're gonna go with that, but I don't get it.

So are you you're a trunks guy?

Then well I am, yeah, but I am mostly not because I have some allegiance to the trunks or anything, but because it breaks the costume up in a nice way.

And did you see You see the art and the concept art is out now for the movie, and you just look at that and you're like, thank god they went with those trunks.

I mean, not that it looked bad or anything, but it just I don't know, I like the way the color break breaks us on the trunks and we had this thing.

It just annoys me to this day looking back at it, because when pre fifty two or pre New fifty two Superman comes back in Rebirth, that version of Clark has blue boots, and it drives me insane, like just it's not because I don't think anyone should have blue boots.

It's just because I like the way the colors balance.

Yes, yes it is so, and you see, but like I think, like, yah, we're joking about the trunks.

But I think when you if I were to show somebody an image of David corn Sweat's final costume, a shot from that movie and put it next to that concept art, I think nine out of ten people, no matter what level of nerddom they have, would be like, oh the trunks.

And part of it is just like yes, it's programmed in your brain, but it is that color.

Just something about it, the design of that color, the color scheme.

Without it, you feel something.

You're like, something is off about this, but I've seen like again, this is just somebody, you know.

I love the Rebirth design and I loved I've loved the costumes that don't have the trunks, but something something, feels right when I see the trunks.

Yeah, and it's just that color, that balance of color ultimately, because like it's so weird, dude, that we still make comics the way we do, because like it was born out of this shortcut medium in like depression era and newspapers of how they could squeeze as much money out of right out of children as possible.

Like basically it was just this complete thing to like save money and all this stuff.

And so that these basic colors that are being used are decisions that are reverberated from a newsstand system and they've just lasted via tradition, long after the mechanism for why they were created has died out.

It's a fascinating exercise.

Yeah, well, I mean, like you're a big music fan too, Like just think about the concept of the album and how irrelevant it is in the twenty first century, Like it's like but we still cling to it.

And I'm like, I'm a proponent for the album as an art form, So I'm like all four that r But in this day and age, when you can stream anything any length of time, the fact that we are still saying, all right, but I'm going to create a forty five minute, ten song statement and release it into the world is interesting because like comics and the way comics are being released right now, it is a design or it is a carryover from an older age where it was the necessity of how like that was the only way you could release this music.

Sure, and it refuses to die the same way comics refuse to die.

That were.

I don't work on any of the absolute books.

I want to make that very clear, but those things are doing very well.

Ye yeah, and I look at that and I go, wow, these bloody things refuse to die.

It makes me happy.

It makes me really happy.

And yeah, like the album say, yeah, that's a wonderful observation.

It's the same exact thing.

And of course it wasn't always that way either, right, Like the Beatles in a lot of ways did that.

Yep, yes, but it became so ingrained in us.

It's just sort of it's actually more like tradition.

It's more like hanging stockings at Christmas time or something.

Really no, absolutely, but it really is.

Like I mean, and you you know, you've worked in the industry for nearly twenty years now.

I'm also at the age where, like the fact that I can say anything happened twenty years ago to me when I was a teenager is I'm like, that's my existential crisis.

It just immediately fires up this feeling in the pit of my stomach where I'm like, oh my god, what's happened?

Where did the time go?

But like you have likely seen well, I mean two thousand and seven, it was right before MCU but you know, Nolan's Batman had just started, right before the Dark Knight blew everything up.

But like, my guess is you've probably seen a couple moments where the comic book industry it was like, well, I guess this is it.

I guess it's all over.

And then people say it every year.

People say it constantly every year without fail.

But like there are some years I believe them more than others.

Actually, but but but but they, like I said, they keep going.

Man, I'm happy.

I'm very happy for that.

It makes me feel good in the same way it made me feel good to see people react to the James Gunn Superman.

I'm like, yeah, okay, there's like a little sense of validation, like this thing I love so much.

Like sometimes comic making comms can feel very solitary, not just for the creators but freditors too, because we're you know, our heads are all in what we're doing, and there are times, you know, when you look at what you're doing and you go, man, does anyone care?

You know?

Cause I know I care?

But does anyone care?

And then to get these little moments that remind you that people do care.

Actually, it is really nice because it keeps me going creatively to hear that stuff.

You know, well, as a fan of Superman, what's been great for me is seeing it's different for you because this is like, this is your livelihood, this is how you get paid.

But as a fan, it's very very similar, Especially as a Superman fan, I've felt for a while, I've just been kind of wandering a wasteland feeling like does anybody like why am I the only one who seems to like recognize this guy's special and not in the comics, but particularly as somebody who loves film, Like I was just like, why am I not seeing what I love about this character reflected?

Or like why am I seeing a kind of an embarrassed fleeing from that that character?

Like the character as if it's something that needs to be you need to be ashamed of.

And I coming back to James Gun's movie and just the full embrace of like let's celebrate exactly what makes this character special.

What it does is, you know, the comics may be separate from the film in general, and I think we're seeing, hopefully and as you're saying, you're seeing a little bit more of that connection, knowing that there is a genuine love from people like James that's imbuing it with a feeling of like reassurance and like, Okay, we got somebody who's one of us who understands why this stuff is special.

But as a fan on the outside, similar to what you're saying about, like you know, feeling validated.

It's so great for me to see this film doing well, getting a lot of praise, a lot of love.

But then also like as you know, as somebody who is a collector and a consumer of all things Superman, to get to see that, it's like great, that means this movie's coming out, which means the comics are likely going to have some sort of initiative, some sort of boost to capitalize off the film's success hopefully, and all that stuff.

For me, I'm like I'm living in heaven and you know, for you, it's like you're the one in charge of making it all happen.

But like, how early on was that summer of Superman like planned?

Was it something that came into the fray later on or was it something like you were like you know what, because usually like there, you know, there's action, and there's you know, there's Superman and maybe one or two not one offs, but like limited series or things like that.

But it's like, right now, how many different Superman series are?

Like how many series are you ever seeing right now?

Yeah, there's a bunch.

Yeah.

That was a conscious effort, thinking that we would have a moment where the anticipation behind the film would be able to support more titles.

I was never asked to do that.

That was more like me looking at this going, I think, if we're gonna do it, now is the time.

My instinct is to always expand, and that's actually not always the smartest move.

Like there's times when you expand too quickly and either the audience isn't there or you're attracting the wrong kind of attention.

And I've been bitten by that before, so I try and be careful with that.

But I knew going into this that we were going to have an opportunity, at least in the run up.

I didn't actually know anything about the movie or how it would perform, because I've thought things were going to perform one way in the past and also got bitten.

So my whole thought was like, well, let's capitalize.

One thing we do know is that there seems to be excitement around the idea of this, so let's do that.

So we planned for an additional title.

It just so happened that Dance Slot.

I had been trying to get him for a few years, and it kept falling through, kept falling through, kept falling through, and then suddenly I got the I got the call like, hey, I think we might actually be able to do it now.

And at the time I had already cast Action Comics.

So we created a new title for Dan and so I thought, well, now, okay, now's the time.

So we did this summer in Superman special, which was okay, well all right, so we got a third title.

Now let's kick that off into make it something.

And the Crypto thing was developed differently that Ryan northbook, which is excellent, by the way.

Oh that was developed.

Yeah, that was developed by Katie Cubert and Sabrina Footge, and so we thought, okay, we'll roll that in, all right.

And that was the case of we're like, okay, if this is continuity, there's going to be some rails, and they're.

Like, okay, we did that.

And then Brittany Holzer, who was about to take over Action, had an idea for a super Girl book, a new one.

We hadn't had a Supergirl book in a while, and Sophie Campbell was available, and we thought, okay, there's a time I think do it.

Let's build a program around it.

So I built this deck and we're going to do this thing, and got Mark and Dan and Josh all kind of architect out what the shape of the thing would look like.

And yeah, it's done well.

It's done well.

And I'm very happy to see that, because, like I said, these things don't always work out, and you learn to kind of temper your expectations a little.

But we have Action Comics, which is selling the tales of Clark Kent as a boy in Smallville for the first time.

We're in the modern era.

We're doing a proper Superboy story, and Mark Wade is writing that, and that came from a conversation San Diego Comic Con where Mark was just like, hey, you know, that would be my dream project.

And at the time I didn't know that that was going to be action comics, but it just it made sense, made all the sense in the world.

And then so Superman Unlimited, the Dan Slott book with art by Raphael Albuquerque, is more of the Superman in the present day, where we've got this skryptonite asteroid that struck the Earth and it's imbued.

It's basically thrown off the geopolitical structure planets alls Kryptonite now on the planet, and so Superman has to react to that and what does he do about it?

And there's a new Kryptonite king and a Kryptonite Kingdom and all this stuff, and then Superman the Superman title is in part set in the future because it deals with the bigger universe connections, and the bigger universe connections right now are the all in sort of epic we're doing with Scott Snyder and this Dcko thing, and it deals with an evil version of Legion of Superheroes, which I was never a Legion fan because I just simply wasn't acquainted with it.

I've become one in the last few months after reading a lot of Legion comics, and I gotta tell you, the most important thing I took away from Legion of Superheroes was that Superman as a boy was able to see that whether he succeeded or failed, or lived or died, the future was going to be okay.

And it was going to be okay in part because of the hope he provided for them and the inspiration.

Imagine being a kid and then your friends are from literally from the future and they were inspired by you.

Like that must make everything.

Like Superman's whole perspective on the world is different with that in place, and it's why I think people were kind of upset when that part went away post crisis.

Yeah, because Superman was able to look at tomorrow and go, oh no, Tomorrow's gonna be fine, Like, yeah, there's going to be struggles, but tomorrow's gonna be okay, Like we're gonna get through this.

It's a designated driver thing like, yeah, tonight's say we're gonna get through it.

It's gonna be fine.

That's a beautiful concept, and so what we're doing in the Superman book is we're playing with this notion of Hey, the dark Side Legion, the Legion of the Dark Side created has murdered essentially the future, and so for the first time, Superman is looking at the future going, boy, I don't know.

This doesn't look good, you guys, Yeah, he doesn't.

He doesn't have that same assuredness.

And a lot of people are, you know, feeling that right now in the world.

So it reflects that that broader cultural conversation in a way that's not so heavy handed.

And and we're playing with that idea, and Superman will have a tall task ahead of him to restore hope in the future.

But if anyone can do it.

You know, I have a feeling he's going to pull through.

Okay, we have a plan.

There's a plan.

There's so much planning, I tell you what, We've been having so much fun.

How far ahead do you typically have to plan these arcs just to like ensure the right release dates and all this.

I can't imagine.

It depends much of all of these different books.

Like I can't imagine it.

Depends how much of a mad man you want to be.

But like I love this, Like that is where I got my gobble it right.

So that's that's my fun.

That's my happy place.

Like when I'm planning out Superman stuff with Mark and Dan and Josh.

That is where I mean, aside from being with my beautiful wife and children.

Yes, please let's give them a shout out.

Oh, that is where I'm very happy.

I'm a very happy camper.

So well, oftentimes what I do is first thing in the morning, I go out for a little jog and up here in the Pacific Northwest and I just think about Superman.

I know, you're literally you have my dream job.

Like it's like, man, I want to I remember I was talking when I was talking with Tom, he was just telling me, He's like, I got this, you know, a call on Thanksgiving Day from an editor who should not have been calling me on Thanksgiving Day.

And he's like, I need a Superman idea by Monday.

And I was like, yes, it's I'm like, I agree, nobody should be calling anyone on Thanksgiving and saying do this work.

But I was like, from my perspective as a fan, I'm like, talk about like what I get to think about Superman on Thanksgiving?

Like that sounds good to me.

Yeah, doesn't always sound good to the people around you.

But yeah, So anyway to answer your question, we have planned out right now through top of twenty seven, more or less, assuming we're all you know, everything's still here, you know, the world isn't some sort of crater or something.

But that we planted it all out, we have a really so right now we're playing this DCKO event and it's gonna be awesome.

Yeah, give give me a little tea.

We've got a little bit of a tease, and I'm sure you cannot tell me more than that.

But but what do we have to look forward to?

Yeah, so basically, the heroes are going to be undergoing a kind of a competition in order to accrue through this competition, the amount of energy it will take to combat dark Side is the nuts and bolts of this, and I could get into the mechanics, but you know, what you don't need to know, because all you need to know is that there.

Is everyone's fighting everybody.

A massive tournament and it is going to kick ass.

And there is a lot explanation for all of it.

I assure you because I had to recite it to another writer today, so I promise it makes sense, but is at the bare bones of this is you're going to see your favorite characters competing to become as powerful as Darkseide and ultimately combat his return perfect.

So that's the and obviously Superman is in that battle, and guess what, he probably has something very important to do in that.

I would imagine he's awful powerful in me.

So he is going to be very much at the heart of this story and we're having so much fun planning that out.

But afterwards, we've got this really cool stuff which I really can't talk about, but we're going to be introducing some new characters.

The Super books are going to be continue to play off of each other and play in the space, and we've got a really epic story which will have the word R I R E I g N in it.

And in that story, we're going to be basically marching toward Action eleven hundred, which hits in this summer, and Action eleven hundred will be the big like boom moment, and then that starts a whole new set of stuff which LEDs into the Fall, and then that's when I go out for my jug again and then to Mark Wade and.

I Love I Love how excited you.

That just makes it brings me so much joy to see how much joy it brings to you, Because as a feeling like I like I said, I uh, you know, living living through a period of time where it felt like the people making Superman stories weren't necessarily enamored with the character.

Like, just to hear from you and to talk with you and see your enthusiasm, it is just like, Man, I'm pumped because I've been enjoying all of it, But like, what do you?

I mean, what do you?

What is it?

What is it about Superman?

I've been asking everybody what do you think it is?

We've kind of talked about it.

I think it's been peppered throughout this conversation.

But this character has been around for one hundred years.

He's survived many many obstacles to get where he is.

Now, what do you think it is about Superman that makes this character so lasting and special?

He is the superhero and by that I mean he's the DNA of the whole genre.

To me, I learned a lot about myself in the last few years about what I like about comics.

I've really been starting to make a concerted effort to read like I used to when I was a kid.

Just consume it as much as I can.

And it's not that I don't like dark and gritty stuff, because I definitely read some messed up books by some very talented creators.

Ice Cream Man is one of my very favorite books, and that book.

I've got to and speaking of that isn't he's doing a Superman.

There's a Kryptonian what is it?

Yeah, the Kryptonite Spectrum, which, yes, very soon.

We just we put the first issue to bed and we're working on issue too right now.

That was I was very happy for that.

But anyway, so it is not that I don't like messed up stuff, but about superhero comics in general, what I realized is there is an element of the bright costumes and the joy of the superpowers and doing the fantastical that is inherent to my enjoyment of the genre.

And it sounds sort of silly and obvious to say, but it's actually not that silly and obvious.

There's like I always point to this one panel of that John Burn drew in one of the early issues of his Superman title, Post Crisis, where Clark is heaving a tree out of the ground with his bare hands, and I look at that and go, wow, yeah, that's it right there.

It's this amazing thing that this character is doing that you can't do in real life.

And there's something visceral about that.

And Superman embodies everything that's visceral about that, with the bright colors and the joy and the superpowers.

He is at the heart of the entire genre.

No matter what's going on at Marvel, no matter what else is going on in DC, no matter what's going on in these other universes, image whatever, Superman is at the He's the atom, the heart of it, the nucleus, you know, and that's it.

You either like that or you don't like I'm sorry if you don't like that, that's totally fine.

But then I then, yeah, then this problem.

You're you're a Beatles fan.

What I told people is like people would say, like, you know, I'm not a big Beatles fan.

I'm like, oh, are you just not a fan of music in general?

Yeah, in a lot of ways, they sort of set the template for pop music as it exists day.

Exactly exactly way.

So it's the same thing with Superman.

It's like, if you like comics and superheroes.

I'd hate to break it to you, but he's the guy that's where it all started.

And by the way, nothing against people who don't like Superman, like I get it, like totally totally fine.

And by the way, like I celebrate you, like go out there and do your thing because like, honestly, like if Batman is only your thing, I often tell my kids, like, hey, I talk about Batman like Bob Cratchit talks about Ebenezer Scrooges.

Like, now you know, I like that, it's not just bob cratching, it's Bob cratching the up at Christmas Carol.

To the founder of the feast, you know, like like Batman keeps a roof over our heads.

Kids, We're all happy, Toman, But but I love we can.

Love them both.

You can love Superman and Batman.

It's okay.

Uh.

And then like my last question, what's your personal You know, I'm not going to ask you to pick your favorite child of this current run and all the amazing books, but your personal favorite Superman story?

Do you do you have one?

What's the one that you know?

DC put out a great video where a bunch of creators said what their favorite was My friends Brad and Lisa Gulliksen at the Comic Book Couples Counseling podcast have been asking Superman creators what what is your go to Superman book?

If somebody is like, Paul, what, what's the one book I read to get a handle on this character?

Oh my god, well that's a different thing.

You gotta be careful now because he's got your working with some of these guys.

So yeah, there's there's well, there's a couple of different answers depending on what you're trying to get a crawl.

Like, if you're giving it to somebody, it's like, here's here's who Superman is.

Well, actually, you know what, I an interesting answer, Maybe it's not that interesting.

Actually, have no idea if it's interesting or not.

But Miracle Monday is by Elliots, Meghan, that I think if you want to understand how that character ticks, that that's the book.

Now.

I would never give that to somebody to be like, this should be your first Superman.

I want you to read this novel.

But if you were to give that to somebody who was interested enough to read it, you would understand, Oh that's that because they elliot as Meghan he's really an unsung creator and Superman lore, because in that book you kind of get all of the things.

You get the anxiety over hey, is it okay that a creature has this much power?

Because that is often at the heart of a lot of stories by people who really actually don't either like or want to deconstruct him or something like that.

And by the way, I think that is totally valid and Elliot, as Megan addresses it, this is wonderful saying in facts, how the book starts, Jonathan Kent is having a bad dream.

He's having a nightmare about his son becoming a great dictator and overlord of humanity.

And that's how the book like starts, right, So you think you go into this and you're like, oh, boy, man man, this maybe is gonna be a dour Superman story.

And then he wakes up from his dream in a flop sweat, and he goes into Clark's room, and Clark is awake because he doesn't sleep as much as humans do.

And Clark is performing a science experiment on a little insect, and Jonathan, who just had this horrible nightmare about his son becoming a Mussolini character or whatever, walks over.

He's like, hey, what you doing boy?

And Clark's like, ah, nothing, I'm just like I'm looking at this dissected insect and He's like uh huh, and you can see the flowers, you know, in his mind.

And Clark's like, yeah, you know, I mean look at this, and he's like showing him the thorax and stuff.

But Jonathan is.

Like, should I get my shotgun?

Like what should I do here?

And then Clark goes, yeah, this, this creature.

It, I'm really really sad.

This creature died and I found it, and I want to make sure that I look and see what killed it.

It's a diseases some kind.

I want to see what killed it so that we could spare the other creatures the same fate.

And Jonathan just goes, oh my god.

But in that moment, that's who he is.

He was always not.

He wants to He acknowledges that the world can be hard, but you can do some things maybe to make it a little better.

So yeah, I'm.

Gonna put Miracle Monday on there.

I'd feel disingenuous to say like that's my favorite, Like, ultimately my favorite comics are like that, The that Ed mc Guinness kind of Joe Kelly Jeff Lobe version of the character, because that that's the version that really clicked.

With me for the that's great, And you were saying, you were like, I don't know how interesting is that.

Nobody is so far as I've not heard anyone say Miracle Monday, but it has been.

I have a copy.

It's been on my list to read y ages age.

This may be the moment.

This is the moment.

It took me like a week or something.

It's not long, it's not a big book.

It's not long, and it's got one of the best I won't spoil it for you, but the ending when you read that ending, I've applied that ending to like my my life life, like my actual life, like Superman solution of what he does at the end.

With that with the villain, I'm like, oh, that's really that's really smart and compassionate.

I should probably I should probably do that.

You know, maybe maybe it's just so subtly copy and paste, maybe change a couple of names, and we might see it someday in a Superman book.

Well, you know, I actually I really want to do a proper like comic treatment of the book.

Eventually, but it's got to be under the right circumstances.

Yeah, that would be so cool.

I think that would be real special.

I hope that works out too.

By Miracle Monday, we're.

Doing that, sticking with that, you know what, let's do it again.

I feel a little I don't want to be like, you know, Johnny completely or like feel like a poser saying that because like Mark Wade has been evangelizing it for a long time.

No, no, no, I think it's great because nobody is mentioned, and I think it's because maybe it's not a it's not a classic comic book that people have kind of left it out, but it is one that I keep reading about, keep hearing about, and is literally been on like on my stack to read for so long.

So this is you and I are going to talk about it.

You're going to read it.

I actually have I have some feedback.

Great, I would I would love to talk to you about Miracle Monday.

Yes, that would be great.

Well, Paul, this has been awesome.

Thank you so much for what you're doing with this, what your whole team's doing.

As a fan, I'm loving it, loving it.

Please keep putting out all the books.

I'll keep buying them my pleasure.

Thank you very much for having me.

I appreciate it.