Sometimes this truth isn't as straightforward as it might seem at first.

Sometimes it is, and that's when the gaslighting starts.

When the truth is less convenient than the narrative we want or need others to believe, our only recourse is to deny everything, admit nothing, and make counter accusations.

And I think I've seen that a lot recently, not just on the national news, but in some of my social circles as well, and I think that it's extremely important now more so than in my entire life, as I've witnessed it, that we keep focusing on the truth and not allow dishonest, bad faith actors to rewrite the narrative in accordance with their own best interest.

This is Truth Wanted, and we've never stopped wanting the truth.

So give us a call because the ninth season of the show starting right now.

Hello, Hello, and welcome to another season of Truth Wanted.

I'm your host, Eli Slack, And every week and this is this is this is a live call each Other that happens every single week Fridays at seven pm Central Time, where we talk to people about what they believe and why and if you'd like to call us, you can at five one two nine nine four two or through your computer at tiny dot cc slash call tw truth one.

It is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin, a five o' one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government.

Every week we have a special guest, and this week obviously is different because I'm not Dan or Kelly, but give it thirty years.

But we do have a special guest, and that is one of my best friends, Tracy Wilbert.

Tracy, how are you.

I'm as well as I can be, considering, considering.

Yeah, I think it's a really tough week to be doing a show like this.

I know it.

Like Dan, he wishes that he could be here.

I'm not sure why he can't.

But I wish.

Yeah, I feel like he'd do a lot better.

But but I agreed to do this show.

I didn't know everything that was gonna happen happen.

So now I'm I'm a little noivous, a little noivous, but.

Thank you, by the way, I appreciate you, uh stepping up to fill in.

Kelly of course is going to be here, but had a little bit of internet trouble, so Tracy has been available to to help us out today.

I mean, there's a lot, like we've said, that's been going on this week and well, yeah, this week, this month, this year, this time.

But there are some of those things that we can talk about on this particular show and some we can't.

What are some things you'd like for us to like?

What what do you want some people to call us about?

What do you want to Let's.

Talk about aliens?

Uh and and barring aliens and by aliens, I mean extraterrestrial life or I've been me and Eli and I were shooting the shooting the crap about something called the bicameral mind.

I know very little about it.

I don't know Eli, did you read that book.

I did not read the book.

Did I got some information from Richard Deliver via the AJ oh, but yeah, well, the by camera mind.

The of course, the consciousness hypothesis that came around like the seventies or eighties and purports that ancient humans had a different structure to their consciousness as I understand it, and it was one in which they perceived their internal like their their inside voice.

Their thoughts as an external voice of the gods or some divine some other entity like.

That's the hypothesis, is that they didn't recognize their their inner voice as their own as themselves.

Uh.

And so that'd be an interesting thing to talk about.

Uh, it would almost be easier to come up with a list of things I don't want to talk about.

But then I'm going to be afraid that I'm going to be giving people ideas.

So yeah, that's that's all it's going on in my life.

I got a whole bunch of nothing going on, except for all the things I'm seeing happening in cities that aren't mine.

Oh, something happened in Saint Louis.

There's apparently monkeys loose in my city right now, which is fun.

Got all my windows locked down.

Out of the zoo, No, no, not out of the zoo.

The zoo's monkeys are accounted for.

Where else in Uh, in your city or in your state.

Do they kill?

If you ask?

Within the state, there's tons of places.

That's fair because oh yeah, dude, Tiger.

When Tiger King was doing all their videos and stuff, they were going all over Missouri.

We got a whole bunch of exotic animal traders and stuff here.

I don't think you quite realize the lawless wasteland that is Missouri.

Yeah, you know what you get down like below the southern like one third of the stadium.

Yeah, this becomes a whole other thing.

It's the hill country, man.

They do whatever they want down there.

But there's monkeys here in the city loose.

Well apparently somebody was breeding or had them as pets or some sort of something.

Anyways, throw me a raft.

I'm drowning over here.

That's insane.

But so we do have some calls coming in and we are going to get to those.

But before we take our first call, we want to give you the results of last week's We Want the Truth segment or WWTT.

Let us get our backup host Laser up here to go go over these with us laser.

Hey, what's up, guys, thanks for bringing out backing us up.

So last week we had three top entries we had from Chuck guide us.

My resolution to double my kids college fund in the New Year's Day poker game is being questioned by some family members.

Okay, uh fair, I would question that too.

Yeah, I mean, hey, we can talk Katis mark I think the best.

I think the least likely New Year's resolution to be kept by theists and atheists is to read the Bible.

Mare Well, from the atheist side, I can go ahead and say, yeah, no, I don't want to do that.

That's not my resolution.

It's very, very difficult.

My resolution has to do with going to the gym.

It's not a fun reading.

Enough.

And then finally we got uh, Matt t k whose resolution resolution most likely fail.

I will cut back on my acatching and absolutely let's all give him a round of applause.

We can all support that fail.

Heck, yeah, is Matt here in the in the chat right now.

He's not doing a great job of not failing that one.

If he isn't awesome, wele thanks Laser for that.

We appreciate it.

Uh, do you have the prompt for next week that we advise?

Yeah, of course.

I'm actually I'm pretty excited about this one.

I think it's got a lot of potential.

So I can't wait to hear what the community weighs in with.

So here here's the prompt for next week.

What is the worst lie you were caught in?

That's just I can't wait to hear it.

Let's hear it.

Thank you sons.

Worst line I was ever caught in was when I had literally just finished eating the rest of the cake that was left in and the uh in the refrigerator and like had frosting like just right here, and my parents were like, hey, did you eat the last of the cake?

And I was like no, and they were like, I don't know.

Man, there's like one plate and one fork and also frosting.

I had.

There's one time I was in like maybe like sixth to ninth grade, sometime like sometime around and in the gym locker room, I opened someone else's locker and he had like a dollar and sixty seven cents on the bottom of linement.

I was like, I'm gonna take it, and I said that out loud, and like people were there and they watched me do it, and I put in my pocket and then like they told him, which they should have done obviously, and like I just never admitted it.

Like I look back at it now, I'm like, Drew, I'm sorry, But at the time, I was like it was one of those things where I was like, oh, like I can't just admit that I was wrong and give it back to him, because then I'll get in trouble.

So I have to find a way to give it back to him without admitting that I was wrong.

And I was like, well, I'll give it back to you just to so this will be over with.

But I didn't take it the exact amount of money you're missing.

I just happened to also have this.

The worst lie I ever got caught in was when i'd first started I'd started my first job.

I was sixteen years old.

I was working at Starbucks and I didn't know the proper strategy for calling in sick so and I didn't know what was in a apropriate temperature for a fever.

So I gave one hundred and three and like while I was on the phone with my manager at the time, his name was Dave.

He he was like, well, Tracy, I think you should go to the hospital.

I was like, no, I don't think it's that serious.

Okay, well then maybe coming to work, Tracy.

I think it's more serious than that.

Sweet.

Yeah, I just need to sleep it off for a couple of days.

That was the worst lie I ever got caught in.

But awesome, those are good answers.

I can't wait to see what we get in the comments, so someone Dan or Kelly can read them off next week.

Laser thinks, appreciate your appreciate you backing us up today.

Man, all right, accident excellent.

So it is time for us to get to some calls here.

But before we do, we need to give a shout out to our patron of the week.

In a week, we shout out to a patron that donates to tiny dot c c slash patron tw for supporting the show.

This week's Patreon of the week is Drumball.

Please Kleevi Helvetty, thank you Kalebi Helvetty, and to everyone else who contributes to the show.

We really, we do appreciate it.

I don't see that money, Tracy didn't see that money.

Laser doesn't see that money.

That is for the nonprofit.

So thank you Kleeve Helvetty, and thank you to everybody else who do nights.

So now Tracy, we have there.

All of the ADO is is done.

It's done, okay, and now it's sarting to get to some call.

Are we going to There may be further ADO, but not right now.

So we're gonna start with Michelle.

She her call it calling from New York and the topic here it says creating and building a better way and society.

With the chat I do not chat.

Okay, oh just kidding.

Color is not I apologize, that's my mistake.

Uh.

I'm new here, so.

But uh that Uh no, no, go ahead.

What's the idea here?

Yeah, the idea here is and I don't want to get too much into the weeds without without Marchelle on the line too, yeah, to sort of justify her position, but to build building a better community like society without God like that's one of the things that I've sort of wanted to start making more of a point to talk about publicly, like what sort of what are the secular ideas we can replace religious dogma with to reconstruct the things we're deconstructing.

Uh and and there's there's not.

It becomes difficult because there's not one monolithic set of beliefs that we can all just be like, oh, this is what I believe.

Now it comes down to the critical thinking and the evidence analysis and and and being able to understand things for yourself.

I know, do you have thoughts on that?

I don't think.

I think with a lot of these topics where people are like building a building a healthy community or a happy community or whatever the phraseology was.

Without God is like trying to build a healthy body without pathogens.

Like without pathogens, it's not doing anything.

I mean, it may have served a point at some point, but all of the things that are working aren't working because of the pathogens.

They're working in spite of the pathogens.

So I don't I don't really see how it's that big of a problem.

But let's let's let's jump in.

I think Michelle's feeling a little bit more better and maybe she can maybe she can give us a better idea of what she means.

Yeah, I want to go ahead and bring in Michelle, and Michelle if you could hear have we kind of strayed too far afield of what you want to talk about or what were your thoughts regarding this?

Yeah?

Them?

Yeah, this is Eli.

If you're on truth line with Eui Tracy, who I don't hear you now?

Let me looks like you got dropped that down to the queue.

Okay, I should be able to hear you now.

Okay, fantastic, thanks, sorry about that, hear me?

I do, and I think I'm sorry.

Who the guest toasted because it said that Kelly was hosting earlier.

And then it's do some last name by the name of Wilbert.

What's your first names are?

Pracyracy?

Okay?

May I address you as such?

I hope you do it?

In fact, fantastic, fantastic.

So the subject, what do you guys?

Do you guys want me to lay out.

The subject in verse or shall I ask ask it in the form of a question and let you guys roll with that first.

Well, so I see on the you know the information I never says, is this an accurate description of kind of where you're going?

You want to discuss God as a villain and God is unnecessary for and it got cut off there, but I guess share your thoughts with us, and then if you do have a question, end it with that and let's start the conversation there.

Love it.

So I have a long since I lent through deconstruction and deconstruction of Christianity and that faith and not to mention other faiths.

And you know there are many parts of deconstruction.

I think that, and I know it might be getting a little off topic, but I think this will be Uh, this is a for pro There are many kinds of deconstruction.

There's deconstruction from the religion.

There's deconstruction from faith, there's deconstruction from hope.

There's deconstruction from every value and every virtue and virtue and every modality of how you wanted to look at es exmorality and ways that you can or do't or can't live your life.

I mean, there's you can deconstruct for each one of those things, which is why deconstruction can take a lifetime.

Not to mention, you have to construct from the trauma and then even the triggers if you want to get away from those.

But what I wanted to really shed some light on today it's a night is, gentlemen, is can we build a greater not just equal society to societies that have had.

Religion or do have religion and faith.

I'm talking about can we build something greater?

That says even if some of us yes, while some of us would say that we don't believe in a god and we haven't seen evidence for him.

And there's also those of us who may say there may be a God, and there.

May not be a god, but we can do something greater without that God.

If it exists, we can build a greater in a bigger society.

I think I agree with you by and large.

I've said myself, I consider myself a anti theist and antitheist to degree, because I feel that religion by and large does more harm than it does.

It does more novel harm than it does novel good.

And I don't think there is any good, any novel good from religion.

I don't think there's any benefit that it provides us that we can't get from some secular means.

So I would say I think generally a society without dogmatic beliefs in general, not just religion, but like without dogma, I think, yeah, absolutely would be better.

I think you could probably say, objectively speaking, yeah, I'm not sure, at Tracy, what do you think?

I think that to ask the question of to ask whether we can build a better society without God is like asking if the car would be better if you took the boot off of it.

I mean depends what do you want the society.

I mean, I mean, you know, we can get into the whole relativism thing if you want, But by any metric I give a damn about then certainly, yeah, you could definitely do that.

In fact, it's so obvious that I don't see why what we're talking about.

If you get rid of the dogmatic thinking then that Eli's talking about, then we would we'd certainly have better outcomes.

But if your goal is to if your goal is to keep the car in one place, then no, removing the boot won't make things better.

It's just so so.

But here's the question.

I mean, religion ever said, ever since the inception of the first religion, and you know who knows it.

Will truly ever find that religion if it is you know what I mean.

But like ever since its inception, religion has been ensnaring those when.

Almost everyone that it touches.

I mean, we're as atheist, agnostics and that sort of thing.

We're such.

We're in the minority, and we always almost always have been, except for that one village that discovered have no believe in God, didn't know what it was, but hey, that was only one tribe.

Did the world start out?

I mean, I think, as you know, we're eight than we are.

I'm fact, and the world Mussas are out with no real agente.

So like that, that's a question that fascinates me.

We really don't know where the first religions are and what it looked like.

It's a very interesting question.

I pondered that a lot.

Sorry, Tracy, go ahead.

I mean, from my understanding, our archaeologists and and uh and people in archaeology, which is what archaeologists are.

Uh, they their current model shows like some sort of animism where you just have like the spirits of the woods and and and things of that nature, where it's it's loosely personified, but they don't necessarily have names or or or intentions you can suss out beyond what the natural world is already doing.

Uh.

Yeah.

But but I do agree with you though that like we don't know what it looked like.

This is just our best guess, best guess evidence.

But yeah, I'll put it have.

Been animism or animism if we well, Number one, we are animals, and the ages that in the chimpanzees that it is now are not the.

Same ones that we evolved from.

Per se.

That's my best novel, that's my home pretty much.

I wouldn't know the boy Lucia, but I did hear guts to give and say that, so that's I got that from her.

But so and I think she's a fanatic coast the next time you can get her on, get her on, because she's like tag some funny but like, I have nothing but.

Good things say about the lady.

Well, I can't remember, but you know what I mean.

But at any rate, Uh, if we were apes, how could hs get animism unless they thought they.

Too were gone?

I don't think it would have been necessary for apes to think their gods in order to make animism.

I don't think that that follows from the other thing you said.

Animism also doesn't I know you're hearing anim in there, but I think that has a root in more spirits rather than like animals.

I know they sound very similar, but like, my understanding of animism is it doesn't.

It's not.

It doesn't have so much to do with like animals specifically, as much as the greater spirit that drives the animals to do the things they do, the greater spirit that drives the river to flow, the greater spirit that drives the tree to grow, you know, the things of that nature.

It's a lot more loosey goosey my understanding of it, and I don't have a great one, but I don't think it would have been necessary to for an ape to think they were a god in order to come up with spirits.

I don't.

I don't know how you're getting there.

No, I was only getting there.

I mean, like, are there only getting there?

I don't think even apes.

I don't think when when we were back then and we are ancestors who were a I don't think even they they probably didn't have animism, like as as you're explaining it.

They probably didn't have what they were looking when they saw a fox from by or a bird in the sky, Like I don't think they said, oh, that must.

Be out of God.

I don't think our brains were that developed at that point in talk.

I think when we started painting on cave wall, I think that's when we really may have started.

Well, so we haven't necessarily pinned down like what specific time we're talking about.

But if I'm thinking about how an animal with agency can get to like the concept of animism, I think it pretty naturally falls.

So if I try to imagine myself as like I'm just like a primitive human that doesn't really know shit right, and I've had like outdated hardware with which to figure shit out, I know that I can make choices.

I believe that I can make choices.

It seems as if.

I'm making choices.

Will Maybe I don't.

I ELI don't, but I, as a primitive human probably would.

I would have.

I would have because I mean, up until I ELI, as a modern human, up until like last year, believed I had free will.

So I think as a primitive human, I might have believed the same thing.

And with if I see a tree moving or like it looks like the the river is, I think the language, ancient language, even modern languages, like a river or a body of water is a single thing.

So they would see this water moving and think that, oh, it's making choices.

It's it's doing what it wants to do.

I don't know why it wants to do that, but that's what it wants to do, and it's doing it.

And I know that I can do things that I want to do, So there must be something similar about that object, that tree, that stone that's falling, that body of water that's you know, flowing down the mountain, something that is allowing it to choose to do that, rather than just that being the result of physics that I don't know anything about yet.

And I think that's it just seems like a pretty natural role sequence of events to kind of come to that conclusion for me when you're when you're starting from a position of not having any idea how things actually work and not really having a method to find that out.

But Tracy, back to back to you in animism, I did want to say, I do agree with you and and understand what you stood about said about animism and everything, Like I definitely agree with that.

So if I I, you know, if I said something that, like I don't, I.

Don't exactly remember what I said, but like I understand the disagreement, and I think I agree with you with everything you said about.

That, but like you're ahead of me then because I don't, I don't know where we're disagreeing.

No, Okay, okay, good, I would say with you, uh you or Eli that said they're.

An anti theist, Eli, that's me.

I am an anti theist as well.

Of course I hate my father.

Okay, I'm brings up something like that.

I'm like, oh is this serious?

Or I still think God, I like when I'm on like I still like the not Sucius.

And there's many reasons why a part of me does still believe in some form of a god, and that.

Is a father figure.

I have gone through the.

Rigular role of hating him so easily and much like one second I could be on his side and just be on all like, hey, I see there.

I understand that you must have a great responsibility and.

You must be minimally I don't minimally powerful, not maximally powerful.

There must be a reason.

Why can't why God?

If he is, and I'm saying, that's a big fucking it, can't get the ship done that he should get done.

I'm like, then we're really not given in half the.

Prey that he deserves because the weight of everything is on his shoulders.

But if he you know I mean.

But at the same time, I I mean now and again I get my ampithees and he gets barking at my conscience and I'm just like, she wi is God, can't you figure something out?

You free as a ship?

She wish you think you could get us out of it?

So to go back to something, I'm sorry, please finish, go ahead.

What was up with the fucking seed?

If you didn't want empty eat from the tree, why did you plan the Oh?

My Eli and I have talked at length about that.

Mm hmm, that's true.

It's like leaving an open bottle of bleach in your baby's packing play.

It's like, come on, man, that's.

Exactly what it's like.

Wow, that's a really good metaphor.

Yeah, I think, and it's pretty apparent.

I think scholars talk about like Genesis being a poem anyway, So the idea that that was that was never intended to be taken.

Little but I want I want to go back to something you mentioned a little bit ago, because you have said that you aren't anti Yes, I believe unless I misunderstood you, and then said something also about still maintaining some I don't know if you said like a pseudo belief, but I'm gonna described it that way and you can correct me if that's not right, a pseudo belief in some sort of uh powerful agent or you said minimally powerful, right.

Can you tell us more about that?

Yeah, yeah, please, powerful in that he's powerful enough at least do something that he can create a universe, but there's some kind of thing where he.

Can't interact with it too much.

But like, at the same time, I've really gotten shot down a lot when I.

Bring this this argument up with either either the person I'm talking to doesn't believe, and they say, oh, well, he can create.

If he's got enough power to create the universe rely has enough power to maintain it in peace and order.

Okay, I don't know that those two things are necessarily true, and I guess there would be a few things I would point out.

I have the power to push a rock down a hill, but I don't necessarily have the power to stop that rock.

Yeah, so.

That's the same.

That's the question I'm asking about God.

Sometimes.

I mean, I truly in my thinker, my thinking logan, and I put my thinking cap on.

And we still as good atheists, or I think it's agnostics.

And good atheists.

And I won with Dan on this one.

I won with objectively Dan.

He agreed with me.

I said, if you're not, if you're being a good a good skeptic will always put their thinking cap on and say, gee, the whole God question, I wonder.

I don't think we should.

I don't think anyone.

Should ever settle the God's quest.

I don't think we should put it in a book, put it on a shelf.

I've read that book.

I've read I've gone through that idea.

I've thought about it enough on it's on the shelf, and I'm never going to take it down again.

That's fair.

I think if we're being intellectually honest, we have to admit that we don't have a definitive answer to the God question.

There's there's basically no evidence in one direction, and it's it's a pretty convincing claim as far as I'm concerned, and I think the three of us are pretty well in agreement there for the most part.

But yeah, the intellectual, honest truth is that it would be prudent to continue investigating what those claims are, what the evidence for those claims are, and why people believe what they believe.

And that's sort of what I was wanted to ask you about a little bit ago, with your belief that there is this at least sufficiently if minimally powerful being.

Where I get tripped up with that idea is that the deposit that there is a being that is sufficiently powerful to create the universe and the world not sufficiently powerful to control it, and there now needs to be some ancillary hypothesis to explain why it is sufficiently powerful to create it, and not sufficiently powerful to control it.

And that is all after the fact that this needs to be demonstrated to exist.

So that's where I think you might be running into when you said, people shoot that idea down a lot.

I think it's it starts with an assumption or a presupposition and looks for ways to explain why what you would expect is not the case without really providing any reason to believe that.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah, and hold on, I want to see Tracy, did you want to add anything to that before?

Well, anything I would add would only be a rewording of what Elias said.

So yeah, I'll do that if you like.

If we have a if there's a house next door and you just assume that there's a neighbor who likes the house to be blue, but the house is currently red, you then have to make up an excuse as to why the house is red instead of it being blue, when you could just think, well, maybe nobody who at least nobody who likes blue or once their house to be blue, is living in that house.

I think that I agree with Eli where you're just compounding assumptions here.

I'm not trying to compound this assumption, and I've never I've tried.

I try not to make prece up positional larderness, not because I don't think some of them have any mirror, not because I.

Think most of them don't have any marriage.

And of what that is pretty much actually, I would say, is the reason I don't think most preceops have the merit to garner any respect.

I think it is possible to find truth via a prece up.

But that was standing.

I'm still agreeing with what you guys are saying that one.

But like, if God is powerful and maybe God didn't create life, maybe all he could do or she could do was create a universe with the physical laws that would allow life to create itself.

And if we create ourselves, God has no responsibility.

And if we created ourselves, it's our ourselves and us around us our own responsibility to take care of each other because the DoD didn't create life.

Care Well, uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna always run away from the U from saying that life created itself.

But I understand your meaning.

You don't You don't mean that life created itself.

You mean that the properties that allow life to arise.

I don't.

Yes, yes, I put I get what you mean.

I get what you're saying.

Romantic.

Yeah, I gotta, I gotta put it in the romantic necular, all.

Right, But I don't know we're and I hate to just be the kind of guy that you were just talking about, Michelle.

Who's who's immediate, Who's immediately shutting you down?

It's just like, I don't I don't see a reason to like postulate on what this hypothetical creature might be like.

That.

That's kind of where I'm at with this.

And I feel bad because you were just complaining about people doing exactly what I'm doing right now.

But I'm like, I don't I don't have an alternative.

Like I know, I feel bad about owning an iPhone.

I don't own an iPhone.

I feel bad about owning a Samsung.

But like I mean, it's a byproduct of the time and the age and the situations that I'm in.

I mean, let's let's let's let's uh, let me let me try to engage.

With you on this.

Then if if God is sufficiently powerful to create the universe, I and that's all I know about this creature.

I don't have any reason to think that even if this creature were to create humans, that it would care about them.

I don't have any reason to think that if this creature didn't create humans, it wouldn't have a reason to care about them.

I don't have any reason to think anything about this creature other than the parameter or as you've already laid out, and so anything more I think about this creature would only be because you laid out a parameter and I accepted it blindly.

So like, but here's where I get something?

Do you want something?

Did you see that?

Tracy and I and you know I please answer this question.

I want you to time out either the bolting you see the first Matrix film movie with Keanu Samuel L.

Jackson.

No, that was Warren Fishburn.

I'll please, dear God, don't let Laurence Fishburn see that.

You get to you got to use it.

You corrected it here, fing all right yourself?

Yeah happened?

When?

When when Keanu?

When?

When when Leo went to visit the oracle and he's and she was he was about to knock over her boss.

She was like, don't worry about the boss.

I'll have some of my children seeing it up later and then he knocked it over and he's like, oh sorry.

He's like, well, I told you not to apologize about it, and she was like, what's really going to kick you later is which you have broken at how that said anything about it?

Well, guess what if God is cruel, we think he might be us in enlightened atheists like a Christian saint.

God is a great, big care bear in the sky.

Notwithstanding, I mean, he gave us slavery, he gave us the Crusades, he created, he gave us the Holocaust.

That was all taken, and then that was all done in the name of religion.

So uh at at any rate, I mean.

Wed the eternally fucking freud, I mean, or maybe at the very best, like God, like the test is to not accept the fate of religion, not to accept blindly stupid mythologies that get you nowhere.

But into dogmatic, fundamentalist bullshit laces.

Yeah, I agree.

I think it's pretty well established and pretty widely believed that early religious early gods were kind of used for a number of purposes, but one of those just to explain the natural world.

And that's where like it's just an our effect from that time when we didn't know how to explain the natural world, and I think that co opting that from that time and saying that now that we do have a lot more natural explanations for things, and like we kind of have a pretty good idea the royal, We have a pretty good idea of how the universe could have been created without some intelligent action, I think the idea of And I'm in the same shoes as Tracy on this because I'm not shutting this down just for like the purpose of shutting it down or because we like we want to be mean to you.

I think that this, uh, I think that it just it is a presuppositional And you mentioned that you try to avoid using those, so I would encourage you to try to to see if you can recognize where this presupposition is coming in.

And I think you're reading me entirely wrong, because then when I'm hearing when I'm hearing you speak, I'm listening, but then my mind goes this, either this guy is totally reading me wrong or well, or I.

Don't know what is What do you think?

What do you disagree with that I'm that you think I'm saying what what do you think the pref.

Is and what is the prestuff that you.

Disagree with and the conclusion that you disagree with.

Thanks for clarifying.

Sure.

So I my understanding is that your uh, I think you told me it was okay to you to describe it as a pseudo belief in some like deity or or God.

Is uh.

I think that that that is the I don't know if I would call that the presupposition or the conclusion with which I disagree and the.

Uh.

I think that those beliefs came about in the way that I was describing a little bit ago.

I don't think indeed to repeat myself necessarily.

Hold on, let me let me finish this real quick.

Where I'm what I'm understanding, that's okay.

What I'm understanding is that the the and you could be told right, I could just be misreading you, but that your belief comes from there there could be this God that created it.

You know, we've gotten all of these You've said that all of these things that happened in the world, like these historical events, the Holocaust and all these horrible things happened because of gods.

I believe is what you said.

But they really happen just because of god beliefs, And I think what's happening is the they presupposed those gods, those events took place, and now we're saying, well, it's because of those gods that does happen.

It's not because of the God.

It's because of the people.

It's because of the belief And once we have the the methods to determine, like, Okay, we don't need a god to explain the creation of the universe because we have a lot of good ideas for how that happened.

Anyway, So now that's where the hardest stick for me is on the presupposition is because we don't necessarily need that claim to describe this.

So where is it coming from?

Does that make more sense?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, I think partly I want to I almost want to say I agree with you about perhaps it being a priestop and not a good one, as usually the most free of aren't.

But the second part of what you had to say about the why and why I'm believing the priestop and leaning toward it is wrong, I would say I would reject.

However, however I don't and I don't.

I wouldn't say the priest out entirely because I'm merely it's a maybe in an.

If, and a big bucking f if God exists.

Maybe, How do you know it's not a counsel of God?

How do you know it's the council?

How do you know there's not something like damnit less sort hanging over every single one of those motherfuckers?

And if they get something wrong, guess what food has come?

They get sliced into, And so they fear their own mortality more just as much as we do.

I can I chime in for a second er as long as I'm not interrupting something you desperately need to get off your chest.

But I want to answer the same question Eli answered about, Like what presupposition do I think you're holding that I disagree with?

And then what conclusion do I think you're holding that I also disagree with?

A presupposition that you're holding that I would I would disagree with holding is that there is a god of any kind?

Another I don't hold that position.

That's not my position.

You don't hold that there is a god of any kind?

Yeah, I don't necessarily believe that.

I doubt it.

I don't I don't care what you necessarily believe.

I care what you do believe necessarily.

Well, that's said.

I'm not necessarily I don't necessarily believe in the God.

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

I understand what time is it now?

You say sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.

I want to know what time it is now.

Is it the time you do or the time you don't.

It's fifty fifty.

So you neither do nor don't believe in a thing you're currently talking about.

That's correct.

I've tried to object on the unstoppable force.

At the same time.

You are a couple of times, Michelle, sorry, you are a contradiction.

Maybe maybe that's what I'll give is my pronown next time I call here.

Here's I've tried to clarify a couple of times whether you are holding a belief.

That's what I've been referring to as a pseudo belief, and.

I think any belief, I'll hold out, Okay, I'll hold out when I when I choose a belief, that's until I get the evidence.

When I get the evidence, i'll choose a belief.

I don't see any evidence for God, so I don't necessarily believe in God.

I don't see any evidence or not existing because there's been no evidence.

For him non existing.

You keep using that word necessarily, and I don't think it has a place in this conversation.

I am a person.

I I do not believe in God.

I don't necessarily not to believe in God.

I just don't believe in God.

It is Is it necessary that I don't believe in God?

I just don't.

It might be necessary, unjudgment day, So you might want to start using that word because if he says believe in me as a God.

I don't care if I might want to do something.

I care if I want to do something.

Yeah, you keep playing with these mites and these not necessarily and it seems like a and and and and forgive me, Michelle, and and then you you made a comment about pronouns earlier, which which we're gonna bru We're gonna brush right on by it.

We don't need to get into that.

But like, I'm having a hard time taking you seriously at this point, Michelle, because.

Objectively, Dan and Kelly would I don't.

I don't care what they're what they would do the other different people from me, So it is what it is I'm I'm having a hard time taking you seriously because you say you will choose a belief when uh that that already seems a bit nonsensical to me, and then you say that next time you're going to make your your pronouns.

I asked, you said that you are both an unstoppable force and an immovable object, which if you mean that in the same way at the same time, you are a contradiction.

So like, what's what's Maybe I'm just having a hard time understanding you, but like.

Well, so it looks like Michelle dropped.

Oh okay, So I don't know if she will be if she chose to hang up, when she'll be calling back, or or what the case is.

Here's where I was sort of I uh, where I was sort of getting tripped up is that I had attempted to clarify a few times throughout the call that you know, or I guess what I said is that I got the impression that Michelle was holding a belief in a god of some sort, and I think I stated that like at least two times, maybe three, and was not corrected.

And is for that reason that you and I were going off of the assumption that there was a belief there of some sort.

The last response I was going to say, and what I kind of try to wanted to try to explain is when I ask questions she asked was if there is a God, how do you know it's not this?

If there is a God, I don't know anything about it.

Because that's what I was trying to get to exactly, because as you said, Michelle, if you're still listening, there is no evidence of a god.

And then you mentioned that there's no evidence of God not existing, which I would also take issue with because in order to know that, in order to have evidence that a thing does not exist exist, I guess one way that I could think of that is to look everywhere, every when and then determine that it is not possible that there is nowhere and no win in which that thing exists.

It was.

It was really frustrating me because like I just wanted, like I wanted to know, like I was under the I held the impression that as a dist or whatever, they thought that there was a god of some kind, and they said no, I don't, Okay, So then then I don't understand what we're talking about.

Like what, Yeah, then what's going on here?

Are we just jumping into the hypothetical for fun?

That's great, I don't think that that's necessarily the goal of the show.

Yeah, And I think like the hypothetical god is not a conversation I like to entertain because it's just sort of like, well, what if I lived in a fantasy land where I had everything I wanted?

Oh, well, then I would have everything I wanted Like this, there's nothing left to explore there.

I get all of the dopamine, I get.

I like all the things I do.

I don't dislike any other things.

And I think it's that's if I if I'd been able to go on with Michelle, I would have said, well, you hold the belief that there is a god of some kind.

They immediately said no.

She immediately said no, and then uh, And then I was going to follow up.

I was like, you hold you hold the conclusion or the press position that you can intuit anything about it.

And I'm like, that's that's another thing that I The first of all, the presupposition that there is a god of any kind, I can't get behind that.

And then the second one, which is purely through intuition, you can figure things out about this creature.

Yeah, that's a detail.

And just to be clear, Michelle, we are not trying to drag on you.

We're just discussing the idea and the But that's sort of the thing that if the first part is well, there's no evidence that this god exists, but if it does, then it must be this and I don't.

And that's where we're imposing or applying characteristics that are just kind of made up and not really grounded in anything.

Do we have any more?

We do have open lines right now, so give us a call.

We you know, we'll here.

We'll talk to you about anything.

We do have merch available.

You can get truth one, murder chet, visit tiny dot, cc slast merch aca.

That's a difficult series of sounds to make all in a row.

We have T shirts, hoodies, mugs, hats, et cetera.

Another way you can support us is by sending us super chats.

We got one during that call from Detroit Atheist Queen.

I don't say right now, but I know that's who it was.

Detroit Atheist Queen said Tracy and Eli, let's go and we love you of course, thank you for the super chat thank you for the five dollars, and if you send us a super chat, we will be obligated by our non contracts to read it on the air as long as it's a YouTube appropriate and five oh one C three appropriate.

Yes, Last, but not least, I would like to think the crew.

The crew has a special place in my heart.

Let's see that crew cam.

We have video operators, we have audio operators, mods, note takers, we have call screeners.

And this is something that gets said a lot on the show, but it is really the crew that is making this show run.

There.

We've we've had crew stepping in to do backup.

We've had it's it's it's whatever happens here can't happen without the crew.

I don't know if we don't have crew cam or if it came up and went already crew cam, not oh here we go, here comes the crew cam.

Uh so, let's get a look at that beautiful crew.

Look at them.

We other verbs them.

When our facial hair gets long enough, we get to join them.

Facial Yeah, it's that's why I'm not crewing tonight.

I shaved.

So thank you crew, Thank you, super chets.

So Tercy, you mentioned something earlier.

You and I.

Land Although we have a lot of similar positions I think on things, we land on different spots on whether veganism is well not not.

We land on a different spots on veganism.

Yeah, we do.

Because for the record, No, I'm.

Not from some kind of dicky friend of ours from talking even thank you, some kind of dicky for the five dollars asks.

Is Tracy kilted tonight and that is because our our good friend Jamie gifted me a kilt and I wore it during the bat cruise.

Uh No, I'm not kilted tonight.

I am.

I am plaid pantsing it tonight.

Plaid pants.

Well, I'm I'm I'm later, I'm in my tartan.

Yeah, there you go.

So there were very nice, well done.

But is that your family tartan or is it.

Just I don't have a family tartan, Sir, It's it's extremely unlikely.

But but I may well, we were talking about veganism.

I did bring that up earlier, So Eli, give the have you have you recently talked to the audience about your veganism.

So I'm not a vegan necessarily, I've.

Done some I don't care if you're necessarily a vegan.

I care if you are or aren't a vegan.

It's not necessary for me to be a vegan.

And also I'm not, and I can get there through my humanism.

And that's sort of the position I land on.

I think that, And as I'm not the first person to say this, I'm borrowing this.

I think veganism is morally virtuous.

I don't think it is morally obligatory.

But I also think that if I see animals, or excuse me, if I see humans as animals and no different from other animals in that regard, I don't want to be eaten or like killed to be eaten.

I don't want to be cannibalized.

And I think that I could assume that other living things likely don't want that either, And I think that's a pretty good justification for veganism.

I don't care whether I'm eaten or not.

I care whether I'm killed if after I and this is an open invitation, if after I die, any of y'all are hungry, and this is on the internet, I I consent, shout down, leave.

Let me think if there's a part of me I want you to leave, thinking of all my favorite parts of myself.

Okay, I don't care.

I'm not there anymore.

It's like, once you move out of your house and you're not using it anymore, do you care if it burns down?

I mean to to a certain extent, but like, I'm not gonna be because I know it's there and I know what's happening.

There wouldn't be a me to be there and care.

I truly don't care if I'm eaten.

I don't care what is done with my body.

I do care whether or not I'm killed.

However, I don't expect the other animals to not kill me.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's the point I've made too.

I was talking to someone on TikTok about it one time, just about and I'm like, well, you know, humans aren't the only animals that eat other animals, And she said, well, but are we the only ones that like?

But are are we capable of recognizing that it's not a super nice thing to do?

And I think, yes, it seems that way.

So I feel like I recognize that, and you don't.

You you don't feel like.

Eating a creature is a is a nice or a not nice thing.

I can't hurt a corpse, so.

Then the the.

It is relevant that in eating it while it's alive, Yes, that's mean.

Well, but that's not what I mean.

It's relevant in many cases, especially in a case of hunting, that it is now no longer alive for the purpose of you eating it.

So it's not necessarily that you eating it as bad?

Is that?

Like you caused its death because you wanted.

To, not necessarily, but in most cases.

Well, I don't care if it's necessary necessary.

Well, we're not talking about a specific situation.

We're now talking about a hypothetical.

When we're talking about hypotheticals, you can bust out the not necessarily all you want when we're talking about like potential, But when we're talking about you and your position, I don't want the necessary hypothetic.

I want the what it is.

But but I'm I'm ways to human.

I've been reading your stuff over here in chat.

Thanks for thanks for saying things.

I'd like to respond to a little bit of it.

I said, fair, but if it can be avoided, you'd avoid killing other humans, right, If it can be avoided, you to avoid killing other humans, right?

I don't know.

I truly, I truly don't know.

So far, I haven't been put in a position where that's something I want or it's never been a factor in my life.

So like, I don't know, I truly have zero idea what I would do in a situation where like if it can be avoided, and like, okay, what do you mean by if it can Like, yeah, okay, I'll lose my arm, but I won't have to kill that guy.

I mean, yeah I did, and what I'm sorry YouTube, but it's been plenty of time.

We can talk about more adult topics.

Uka the first three minutes whatever.

So the.

Thing that I get to about veganism in general is a lot of my morality stems from my empathy.

And I do have empathy for other humans and I and they can make their wishes clear to me.

I have some empathy for uh, other for non human animals.

Uh.

Ultimately though that my empathy for humans will not stop me from killing and eating a human if I'm sufficiently hungry.

My empathy for animals doesn't stop me from killing and eating them when I'm not even that hungry.

Just hungry enough, which is sufficient hungry.

And I think in the future, like I want to clarify this for your and the audience's say, because I understand this and inherently about you, but I'm not sure that everyone else does.

You don't mean like in your in your modern life as it exists right now, that what you said about like, uh, killing and eating humans?

Like what was it you said that something?

It wouldn't stop you or your empathy.

If I'm sufficiently hungry, like there are no other options and there are no other options, is that relevant?

There will never be a situation where there are no other options.

I can always eat my own arm.

Okay, that's fair.

I can also just die, right, I think I think we can.

We Here's what I'm trying to get at, is you're saying that, like what it sounds like.

This isn't the words you use, but what it sounds like someone could take that and interpret it as there's nothing morally wrong with eating humans.

If I'm hungry enough, and I think that just requires some qualifiers.

I think, well, well, here here's what it does require some qualifiers.

Let me let me dig into it.

Then if I'm sufficiently hungry and I have no other less in less intense, no whether or not it's a human I'm trying to set I'm I'm trying to find the factors that aren't just it's a human and and it's like, well if if it's easier, because like if I have to if I have to journey to Africa to get a hamburger.

Yeah, that's that's resource inefficient.

There's no so, but I think there's a there's a there's a ratio of efficiency to the to the act that would get it.

But like cost benefit it cost benefit analysis, and then you then but then I've just been talking about whether or not I would eat a human.

Whether that's all I've been examining.

But my previous statement was kill andy to human.

So like to get to the point where I would kill and eat a human, it would it would be a very it'd be very like that.

There would have to be extenuating circumstances, like I think you're trying to get to.

That's what I'm trying to get to.

There would have to be a scarcity of of of other foods.

There would have to be like, really, that's about it.

There'd have to be a scarcity of other foods, right.

But you would say that as you like your life as it exists right now today, Yeah, I'm not going to go exactly, eating human would never be a thing that you would need.

To do, and as far easier for me to just go get other food.

Exactly and so as waste a human plant.

Now that's AJ, by the way, I don't if you knew that, I didn't know, Hi AJ the uh there are almost always non animal alternatives, so like, for example, I've tried recently the impossible ground beef and it was like, Okay, it's a different texture.

That's the best one that I've tried.

I like the Impossible whopper as much as I like any one, which is not that much.

But I think so to her point, there is always an no, not always, not for every person in every circumstance.

But I think for you, knowing you as I do, you would typically have a non animal option.

But I think where vegans and non vegans sort of, I think the biggest like uh distinction is what we consider our group to be like our our are our same groups.

So like for me, I can easily get to a point where I say all animals because I am an animal, or like all mammals, I could say all mammals are part of my group because I'm a mammal or I could just stop at humans or like all humans and like my dog as you I think often remind me.

All humans and my dog all humans and most dogs like.

But I think it typically does come down to what part, like how how big your group is?

Where do you stop?

You're like, this is my in group, and I can stop it at humans or I can stop it at animals.

I I don't.

I don't think.

I you know, there's there's a whole bunch of different theoretical in groups that we could have, and so I don't.

I don't see.

I have a hard time with this concept ELI because I don't see, say, the Westborough Baptist Church as part of my in group.

They are, however, humans and so like we're we're getting into like the splitting of straws of and I can't help but do that sometimes where it's just like I don't, I don't know man part of my in group.

No, the Westboro Baptist Church is not part of my in group.

No, the Klan is not part of my in group.

Uh.

Like I'm not gonna say all humans, because there's there there are some humans that like I don't care what happens to them.

Uh, that's that's a good point, honestly anymore.

Yeah, And so like I've already, like I think I've told you before, in my moral system, I I feel as though I've already given a I've already given a lot of ground.

I've already given up a lot.

I've already said, Uh, you know, I've already just without significant justification, given leeway to so many people.

I don't do crimes against people that i'd like to to to do crimes against because of my moral system, not because of the law, but because of my moral system that I've created.

And I feel like I've already given up so much.

You want me to give up more, and uh, and I I don't.

And I'm like, I'm unwilling to give up more without some justifications and so and those justifications have to be satisfying to me for me to uh to adopt them and the whole uh and and also we get into this whole thing that I've talked to you about before, where I'm just like, I don't know what the fuck a horse feels.

I'm willing to I'm willing to grant that they don't like pain.

I'm going to assume that I'm not really like I'm willing to grant that, uh, and I'm willing to like not give them more of a thing they don't like than other things.

But I don't know if they have a concept of what death is.

Yeah, you know, I don't know if other animals know that they will eventually stop being alive.

Maybe Laser knows.

I wonder if our backup host has that specific answer.

I don't know what you think about this.

Tell me every way I'm wrong.

Please no, I mean I honestly, most of the conversation I've been tracking with I guess all come out like hard on the stance of like, I'm not planning on eating any humans, like almost no matter how how bad it gets like it would have stuff is hitting the fan.

I guess that's what I'm saying.

So let me ask you if if you were really, really really really hungry and I brought you some liver with fava beans and a nice kiante, like, how long will you resist?

It's a really good question.

Here's the thing.

You may not know this about me, And I know this is gonna sound like a bit of a side topic, but I'm a very picky eater, and so I might actually, like man, I sat at the dinner table for so long just not eating the mashed potatoes.

It was like a day and a half, so like my parents tried it, like I guess maybe after days and days maybe, But my point is that's when stuff sit in the fan, right like I.

So maybe it's gonna sound weird, but like I guess I have a weird like hierarchical rules system here, like anything that I think is kind of conscious or approaching conscious, I really feel uncomfortable about eating.

Not that like elephant is normally offered up to eat, but like man, ain't no way, I feel super comfortable about eating an elephant, right because we know how smart they are and how intelligently I like dolphins have a similar argument about them as well, so likened octopus either, but again that's more about the picky.

I know.

I don't.

Either way, Like I don't know.

It's probably more of a picky eater thing than anything.

I guess.

One thing that I've always been curious about is like why why vegans that I've interacted with are so confident that like, for instance, animals have feelings or fear or pain and sensations of pain, but like plants obviously don't, like they're so sure about how moral it is to eat as many plants as you want, but like they're alive, right, So like I'm not saying that like have feelings, but like I am saying that, like it, we're all drawing arbitrary lines when there's some.

I don't know if epistemological concrete for that, because we recognize, we know what like biological systems in our bodies allow us to experience pain and understand what it is and react to anything like that.

Plan Well, so here's here's what I'm saying.

We can this like not me, but it is like we have determined what those are, and we can recognize them in other animals.

They may exist in plants, we just don't recognize them if they do, because the same structures and the same patterns aren't there.

And I think that's probably where most people do it, because I've thought about the same thing.

I've seen some things that say like, yeah, like you know, trees give off this this particular chemical when they are like when they experience a physical damage or physical trauma or something, So that very well could be the case.

We just don't recognize it exactly.

It could be a different mechanism.

Right, Just because they don't have a nervous system doesn't mean that they don't have negative feedback loops.

Right at the end of the day.

That's kind of what pain is.

It's a negative feedback loop encouraging you to avoid that situation.

Sorry, what were you about to say?

There is a an essay by uh, let me, let me okay, hang on, I'm about to say a name.

I'm not gonna say a name.

I'm just gonna say the name of the essay.

But it doesn't matter who wrote it.

It matters what the essay is.

It's called What Is It Like to Be a Bat?

And I Eli's probably getting tired of me bringing up this essay because I bring it up all the time.

And it argues that subjective experience is inherently personal and cannot be fully explained by objective physical science and subject and that that's just subjective experience, which is what they which is what they define as consciousness in the in the essay, the book, whatever.

And that's that's ultimately where I fall back on constantly, is it's just like I don't know what it's like to be a bat.

Even if you turn me into a bat and you turn me back, I still don't know what it's like to be a bat.

I know what it's like to be a person who was formerly a bat.

So in the spirit of truth, want I can I actually like just spin on a panic a little bit.

In the non spirit of truth.

There's this sci fi book that I really really love called Anathem.

It's by Neil Stevenson, and it's it's very very long.

Get into it if you can, but it talks about a lot of philosophy and one of the thought experiments that it's like the society is split between science minded folks and like reasoning folks and people that just don't care about anything else anything like that, And and the whole of society is basically split between the two on the science minded side of things, and it's been split this way for like thousands of years.

So on science mind the side of things, there's this thought experiment called fly bat worm.

So, like, imagine there's a cave full of flies, bats and worms full of traps, right, the flies, the bats, and the worms they don't want to get into the traps because they'll die, right, So like, ideally they want to find a way to communicate to each other, like what a trap is?

So like, how would how would the worm communicate to the bat?

Because the worm can't see, right, all it is is it can feel, and the bat can't can't see really, it can only hear and make echo location right, and the fly fly can only see.

It can't really hear or do it.

It's like they're all limited to one sensory perception, right, is the thought experiment and what it ends up boiling down to at the end of the day, at the end of the chapter, rather that what would a worm do to communicate to a bat that there's a trap right here?

And the worm would like squirm around and try to make shapes, because that's all a worm can do, right, Like it can move its body around, it can feel stuff, and the bats might look down on the worm and to be like worm seems to be doing But I've never been a fucking worm, so I have no idea what he's trying to communicate to me.

And I think that that's actually a pretty good analogy that like just builds upon the exact thought that you were just talking about.

There, so I wanted to bring that.

It's a great it's a great Uh, it's a it's a great analogy.

There we go.

That's the word.

The word you used is a great one.

I was trying to think of another one.

I couldn't, but it's it's a great analogy.

And and this is this is what in our friend aj she's she's she's talking in the in the thing, she says that, well, if well, I could say, I don't know what it's like to be Tracy, But if Tracy couldn't speak and tell me, I could observe him and study him to understand him better.

You're assuming that you could do that, right.

You're assuming a shared understanding at some point, like said that that's semantic understanding.

And if you don't share that, then you can't actually relate.

To And I'm not even saying you're wrong for assuming that.

I'm just saying that that is an assumption, and it's not an assumption that I'm It's an assumption I am willing to make because I can't.

I have become convinced I won't be able to survive in society unless I make that assumption about other humans.

I can survive in my society without making this assumption about any other animal.

Yeah, I mean that's fine.

I mean that's kind of the root of my line against the human eating.

To be honest, Tracy, as far as I'm concerned, when I so this is the deal, I don't really have a problem.

I have a problem with cannibalism on like a societal metric because I've become convinced through my years that people would find the idea of them being eaten after they pass to be disturbing, which would impact their quality of life while they are here and alive.

And so I'm against it for those reasons.

But like in a breakdown of society situation, I'm not trying to preserve society anymore.

I'm trying to preserve me.

Yeah, I sort of land there too.

That consuming Like, it's just a transference of energy, and like all things in the universe need energy, and animals are no exception.

We get our energy by chewing it up and swallowing it, and some of that energy comes from the other animals that have also eaten energy, and I are now like using that.

So yeah, it's absolutely just like a continuation of transference of energy and where I kind of distinguished from them because I really enjoy looking at humans as like just another animal and like not it's it's a it's a sort of a fun thing for me to to like think about human behavior the same way I think about other animals that like, I don't understand what it's like to be them, so I'm trying to figure out their behavior.

But with humans, because we have these new rules and this sort of capacity to recognize that, like it's not always like not everybody is in a life or death like survival scenario, we don't need to eat other humans.

We I there are I guess I don't know for sure, but there are like historical examples of cannibalistic societies that just I would imagine those came to rise because of like they're just need to have food sometimes and like, oh, well that person died and we don't have any food, so here it is or like that's the smallest person and we don't have any food or whatever.

But I think now that we've had a point where like, Okay, we don't need to eat other humans anymore to survive.

We now have circumstances where we don't need to eat other animals in order to survive anymore.

The only difference is that we just don't see like eating other animals isn't as taboo as it is to humans, And it's just because we place that extra importance on humans.

And I want to be clear about what I meant with a flybat warm when I refer to that theoretical discussion, I think it actually points to the reason why we feel differently about humans.

It's not that I'm setting humans aside because we're special, it's that we actually have We're not fly bats worms that can't communicate to each other.

We can.

I can be like, Eli, don't eat my arm, and you'll be like, oh crap, now I know Daniel doesn't want him.

Me to eat his arm.

Right, it's pretty clear.

So we actually have this ability to relate semantically.

We could make the assumption that no other being wants to be eaten.

I think that's probably a pretty safe assumption.

But as you point out, that just spells the end of all life that doesn't originate from like things like photosynthesis, right, Like things that don't come out of existence from raw energy of the universe would now be the only things that get to live.

Anything that has to eat anything else would seem to be disqualified and that that doesn't seem great.

Well, no, but I think that's a sort of some animals just aren't equipped to eat or digest plants, and in that case, they do need to eat other animals.

Nessary.

Wouldn't the logical argument that those animals shouldn't exist because they have to eat other animals?

I don't think so.

Okay, maybe I misunderstood the topic, But like I guess, I've heard.

I've heard a lot of claims along those lines of like it's just wrong to eat anything else that can feel pain or or things like that, and I feel like that inevitably.

Can't feel pain.

Sure, but the cow could right and talked about this earlier.

And that's just ultimately where I'm getting down to this.

It's like I'm not eating a cow, but most of the time I'm eating a heifer or a steer.

But even I'm not even eating a heifer or a steer, I'm eating the remains of a heifer or a steer.

But Eli, if I, if I could just call back to what you were saying, I'd like to draw a distinction between not doing because I don't have to and in the future doing because I have to.

I'm not not eating humans because I don't have to.

I'm not eating humans to preserve our society.

I will eat humans because I have to.

But not like like that.

That's the whole thing about, like, well, you don't you're not eating humans because you don't have to know I'm not eating humans to preserve society.

The contradicted a little bit there, I think.

Tell me tell me then, unless I am just misremembering what you said.

Start.

You started with I'm not.

The reason I'm not eating humans isn't because I don't have to.

It's to preserve society.

Oh hell, and then you said something right after that.

Can you remind me what you said?

Please?

I said that I will eat humans if.

I have to, if you have to.

Okay, Okay, so no, it's not a contradiction.

I guess I would just need more clarity.

You will if you have to.

I'm just trying to draw this distinction between will if I have to and not because I don't have to.

It is merely coincidence that I don't have to and I'm not.

So you don't want to.

I don't want to Okay, it's.

Merely coincidence that I don't have to and I'm not.

I think you were pretty clear about that in my brain just let me not understand it for some reason.

And that is basically laser That's why I that's why I don't think that animals that need to eat other animals shouldn't exist, because like, they just exist.

And I think to be like, but I think you asked me if that's what I meant, right.

Or I'd suppose that, like I'd heard people make claims almost a lot of those lines, right, like, and that would leave us with a universe of only rocks and plants, right, Yeah, that's a that's a fairly boring universe to me.

I agree, I think, yeah, I mean like eating animals, would you know, could be done only out of necessity, and that applies to non human animals as well.

Like it there are non human animals for which it is a necessity, so like they can't just not but there are that there are animals that don't need to and it could be done without them.

And we've been on the topic for a while, but like I just do want to throw out we've never touched on it, but lab grown meat.

Someone give me a lab grown meat burger.

I'll eat that all day, Like yeah, I don't want to kill a cow to eat a burger.

Like no, I don't want to be associated with having a cow killed so I can have part of a cow if I'm to steal man Tracy's possession, right, Like, I don't want any association with any of that nonsense.

Wouldn't kill a cow.

They would in order to give you a steak, Ordinarily they would.

They would kill a steer or a heifer.

My apologies for the terminology.

It's okay, It's just it's one of my it's one of my pets, Peeve.

That uh, the that people refer to all bow vines as cows.

They're not only female bow vines who have given birth.

And that's it.

It's one of my pets, Peeve.

And it's all I can do.

At least you have multiple you have both heifers and the and the others refer to to have multiple pets, peeves.

Multiple pets, Peeve.

I got a heifer, I gotta steer, I got a bowl I got Whenever I start talking about gender with people, I'm like, okay, do you know the difference between a heifer, a steer, a bull, and ox.

You know, all these differences, they're basically the different, uh, the different genders of cattle.

I mean, we hit veganism.

Should we really get into.

Six minutes out?

And actually, with that being the case, I don't.

I think we've pretty well hammered this to to death.

Now we can harvest its meat and eat it.

And you're right, John, the human, ox is not a cow.

Ox is a name given to a male bovine who has a job.

There are also species of bovine that are called oxen.

That's not what I'm talking about here.

You're conflating.

I love this so much.

Can we get Tracy to just talk about like the terminology of cattle bovines for the next I don't know, three minutes.

That's about the end of it.

That's about the end of it.

But like I just saw that.

I just saw too.

I saw Tim John the human say ox is not a cow, and I'm like, yeah, that's the fucking point I've been making this whole time.

He was I think he was co signing you.

No, he was saying it's a different species.

And I'm like, you're correct that ox is used to refer to a different species of cattle.

However, there is also a term ox for a male bovine who has a job whose job is not solely siring new cows.

Okay, I've missed sometimes cattle.

I just I just did the thing I hate people for doing.

I'm gonna go.

I'm gonna go with myself for a while.

That words of Well, let's say this first laser.

Can you remind our audience what next week's prompt is for the question for we want the true segment?

Yeah, as soon as I switch back to the window and have it up, absolutely I can do that.

Yeah.

So next week's prompt is what is the worst lie that you were caught in?

And community, I can't wait to hear your answers.

This is going to be just comedy gold mine.

So yeah, I can't wait to hear them.

Thank you so much.

You can always get to my heart.

If you're doing a bit, I live and die by the bit.

Put your comments in the or your answers in the comments section, not in the live chat.

I mean, I loved to read it, but I won't be anymore because we're done here now.

And Tracy, I would like to ask you for words of wisdom.

Do you have anything you would like to leave our audience with as we part?

Uh?

Yeah, the greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.

I think we're not allowed to use that.

Thank you everybody for Are we allowed to use my tattoo?

Because it's lyrics?

Thank you everybody, that's true lyrics.

It's been very much fun to be here.

Tune in next week.

Never stop wanting the truth.

That's lyrics.

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