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Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics.

Friends, many of us think of ourselves as nerds, as geeks, and for some there's a recent development.

For others, we have been so since birth, and we love to talk about the things that geeks love, but we haven't really got a chance to step back and talk about how did we become geeks?

Is this just part of who we are?

Can you make yourself a geek?

Well, I'm really honored today by saying our special guest is Mandy Caplan, a comedian, a musical theater performer and arranger of Cabareat Nights in Los Angeles, and who also has a podcast called make Me a Geek, in which she has been inviting people, including myself, on to kind of introduce her to different finds of favorite geek media, TV shows, video games, movies, all the rest.

And I've so enjoyed getting to be on her podcast that I wanted her to come online and talk about this whole process she's been going through.

So Matdie want you to start by saying hello and introducing yourself.

Well, Hello, I am Mandy Caplan and my podcast is called make Me a Nerd Mating Nerdy.

I hate to give you a demerit right off.

I mean I'm I think generally, when I'm in, you know, in a you know, generally, when I'm introducing a host, I should probably introduced them properly.

So yes, no demerit received.

Okay, and someone keeping score, I imagine, here we go, here we go.

But yeah, my deal is that I'm a mainstream mom.

I love Taylor Swift, I love Housewives, I love fantasy football, and I have shied away from or been afraid of, dungeons and dragons and star both Trek and Wars and all of nerd culture.

I've just kept my distance.

And when I was turning fifty, I thought, there's a reason why everyone in my life loves this stuff, and I'm going to crack it.

I'm going to figure it out, and I'm going to try these things I've never tried, which has led me down such exciting roads and discoveries of things I can really relate to.

You have been such a successful guest.

Well two out of three ain't bad.

But we watched The Orville, which I loved, and The Penguin, which I absolutely worshiped.

But you know, I'm realizing there's so much I love about all of this stuff, and some of it is a bridge too far, but you know.

And I totally get that.

I think it's really interesting had this conversation.

I'm just a few years younger than you.

I'm most forty eight, and you know, our generation, I think, grew up at a time when, like you know, if you read comic books, if you're really into Star Wars, like, there was a couple of kids at our school who were that.

I was certainly one of those kids, and I got stuffed into lockers a lot that kind of thing metaphorically, not literally, but.

There's still time.

I mean, well, I'm kind of a large with all these demerits you're going to be getting.

If they build a locker big enough, you're right in there.

There you go, There you go.

But like it's been fascinating to me, especially on some of my other podcasts, Star Wars Generations, especially getting talked, getting you talk to the folks who are growing up in a time where like reading comic books is cool, knowing comic books is cool.

The MCU is, you know, one of the biggest movie franchises out there, with Star Wars a close second, and so it's been really interesting to me getting to hear, you know, from you as well, talking about, you know, approaching this at a different point in life instead of having grown up with it.

And so let me just kind of start by asking you for you when you started this process, Like what did the word nerd mean to you?

Like, what what do you have in mind when you thought I want to explore this world that I haven't poked my head into before.

Well, I know this isn't popular amongst some nerds, but I love the Big Bang theory and I think it inspired a lot of this, and that's what I think of people who love not only playing a video game, but going to conventions for said video game and getting the comic books and wearing the T shirts and you know, doing cosplay.

All of those things I saw as nerdy and Big Bang Theory made me think, but they look really fun and they look like ways to really bond with people and make lasting friendships, and I like people and friendships, so I think I was inspired by that.

But I know that, for example, my sister is a huge nerd and she just hates the Big Bang Theory and takes just very imputing to her tellay, So I know there's that part I think.

That I'm want to say, I'm definitely one of those who are not a fan of the show because I think it's it's often made by people who aren't geeks but who are kind of making fun of it.

But I love that you're kind of like the exception there and that, like.

You know, for you, you seem to really enjoyed getting in on the joke, because I do think there was a lot of celebration of those parts of the culture, even if often they're they're poking fun at it.

In ways that I don't love.

But so yeah, and I will get into more specifics in a bit.

But now that you've kind of been on this journey for what has it been about a year since I started this podcast.

Six months coming up on a year.

What's been your experience with it so far?

Tons of fun, tons of Uh, in a way, proud of myself for really trying things I would never have tried based on the description on Netflix sci Fi Fantasy, I'm out, Yeah, and just opening my mind and opening my heart and finding such fantastic shows and movies and books and yeah, I mean there are specific things I love, specific entities that I'm really drawn to, But moreover, I am an old dog and I'm learning new tricks.

Yeah, and I think that's great.

I think that goes in all directions, you know.

Or earlier we were talking about our shared love of cooking shows and you mentioned Taylor Swift, something that I've definitely probably rejected for far too long, in part because I had a sort of oh, commercialized pop music is bad, but also just some of you know, misogyny about female pop singers and the like, and the way society dismisses them and She's someone have come to love.

My spouse has introduced me to one direction and the joy of the new generation of boy bands.

Though I'll always be a Backstreet boy at heart, but I think there's something great about being willing to kind of branch out and explore new things, especially at this point in time right now, where you know.

Part of why I think it's such an interesting question is I think if you ask a lot of people what is nerd media right now, You're gonna get a very broad answer, because, for example, just I think you recually did an episode on and Or right yep in Star Wars, And granted there's some debate about this right now, but within Star Wars, in the last year, we've had a spy drama which is and Or, which is very kind of intense, and we had Mandalorian, which is very like dark and gritty and cynical.

We've had Skeleton Crew, which is basically a fun kids show like the Goonies and other things like that of the eighties that we grew up in.

And so yeah, I think we're seeing more and more like you can have all of these different genres that are just connected to you know, either the larger intellectual properties or just you know, in sci fi kind of realms.

But a sci fi rom com, a sci fi comedy, a ssichi, any of these kind of things.

I'm definitely seeing elements.

I mean, I'm a spoiler.

I'm a musical theater baby, that's my nerd uri right there, as musical theater.

And the amount of shows that have done musical episodes, so or you know, I do love comedy, and watching the Orville was thrilling.

I was laughing so hard, and then, as you know, I was crying so hard about the deeply psychological, you know, importance that right that that show was giving.

I just I'm finding all the things that I can relate to that don't necessarily have anything to do with nerd culture or mainstream culture.

Right Yeah, No, I think it makes a lot of sense.

And so what are some of the things you're finding, Like, let me let me first ask when when you started this project, what were kind of your expectations about the kind of media you'd be you'd be experiencing.

Well, first of all, I've learned to forgive myself for not understanding some of it, and I'm a very intelligent person.

It's not that it's just that my brain is not wired to remember, you know, seven different races all in a space battle.

I can't remember.

I can't follow the lore.

And from the very beginning, all my beautiful nerds who are my friends and colleagues that come on to try to recruit me said, that's okay, let it go.

If you don't understand everything, you will still get the story, get the excitement, get the romance.

You'll get it all.

And that is a major shift for me.

Is like just almost not skimming that's not the right word, but not getting bogged down in lingo I don't understand or character references that make no sense to me.

So it's much more enjoyable when I'm not feeling like, oh, I'm stupid, I don't get it.

What are they talking about?

Oh they left me out again.

I'm pretty good that I'm done with school.

I got a college degree, a master's degree.

I don't want to do more homework.

I understand what you mean about.

You know, there are some there's some TV shows and books and movies and things where it feels like you really have got to do the homework to get it.

And I totally understand why that it's a lot of fun where you don't have to worry about that.

Yeah, And I think I didn't realize this at the time, and maybe I'm just putting this together now, but my format is somewhat brilliant because I can say to you, so, Matthew, that whole speech in the beginning, what the heck was that about?

Right?

And you're the work for you.

Yes, you're going to say, oh, in the prequel, there's a world that we don't see in this one, and that and or whatever.

You're going to explain it all to me.

And you know, I can just drink.

I just have a glass of wine and relax and watch good stuff and take what I take from it.

And every everything I with the exception of two entities, one of them being one of your choices, I've found something to love.

And I think that that's the key.

One of my very first guests said, well, I'm not coming on your show so you can shit all over something I hold really dear, And I said, I would never.

I'm looking to embrace these things.

I would never approach something looking to trash it.

But I understand that fear these things are very, very precious to people.

And I think that's really true.

And I think that's also part of the generational thing, because you know, a lot of us grew up being having these things trashed or being trashed because of them, and that's not the case anymore, and I think most of us think that's wonderful.

I think, like with anything in life, there's always some people who are like, oh, I missed the good old days, when you know, they want a gate creep who gets to be a nerd, which mostly means they want to keep out girls because they think, you know, girls want to talk to them, so girls must be bad.

Jinny and fandom is obviously a thing we can do far more episodes about, but I think that there's something really wonderful about getting to see things through someone else's eyes like that.

And I've always found myself that I'm kind of in a middle position because with a lot of these things, I've done a lot of the homework, especially if it's you know.

All the other shows and stuff.

But a lot of the times, especially when it comes to comic books, I haven't read the comic books.

And I'm a big believer if if I go to something and someone says you'll haven't even better understanding of it.

If you've read the comic book, I'm like, cool, okay, well, then let me read about like comic books, just the visual meaning doesn't work in my brain, but let me least read about them or have someone tell me about them the way you do.

But if someone says, oh, you didn't like it because you hadn't seen the comic book, and so therefore your opinion is not valid, you know, I think there's nothing wrong with making a product that's only for people who've already seen all the other stuff.

But then it's also okay to say that's not for me, you know.

And I love that you're able to really find what are the things that are still fairly accessible to you even if you don't know all that background or whatever it is.

Right, Well, I have the benefit of someone who does to talk me through it, but I've also found myself if I can pull back and keep it big picture, I can just enjoy it.

Right Yeah, And I think that's often the mark of the good media is the stuff that can be where the background might add more dimension and more to it, but you're still able to find something.

You're able to understand it, You're able to or at least understand it enough to get what's happening.

You know.

Well, I compare it to Sesame Street, because I thought, my opinion of that show is that it was a masterpiece in keeping the humor accessible for three year olds and thirty year olds, so there was always something for the parents to latch onto and find funny that would go over the kid's head and vice versa.

And with these things, like you and I just talked about the Last of Us, it should appeal to those who have no background as well as two loyalists who obsess over it exactly, and the good ones do the good ones.

I don't need to have read the book or seen the first season, you know, right, You.

Know, I think that's so important, and I really you know, going back to the comment about people being kind of protective of these things, like I said, I think they can get to a problematic place and get to be gatekeepery, but I think the core idea of it's very important, especially with some of these properties that have had their bad periods and things like that, or have even with both within and without the fandom, people who are very negative about them.

And I've really appreciated the way that you always go into, even with something like The Last of Us, that's the one that I suggested that you really didn't.

Like, which I get.

It's I think it's very kind of high bar of entry in terms of being very very hard to watch, very kind of gruesome horror and things like that.

But what I really appreciated was your attitude wasn't oh, Matthew, I can't believe you asked me to watch this.

It was Matthew, this didn't work for me, But I'm really curious why it worked for you.

And I think that's such a good model of how we can approach media that doesn't necessarily work for us.

Absolutely, and I'm interested in You've said gatekeepery a couple of times.

Is there a part of you out of curiosity?

You are a lifelong nerd, So when I say make me a nerd, is there a part of you that's like, screw you, You're late to the party.

There definitely is not, and I think, Okay, probably form the majority of people in these worlds, there isn't.

But there definitely are parts of the world that are like that.

And I think that.

Probably when.

The nerd stuff first started to get popular, when I was in my twenties or so late twenties.

I think I probably had a little bit of that, mostly when would be.

Folks who.

I guess, you know, you know, it's not something I'm proud of, but I think I can understand the sentiment.

And I think where I may have a little bit of it still is when.

Because a lot of this stuff does have a lot of deep meaning and a lot of philosophy to it, a lot of ways that it's shaped.

Kind who I am.

I think it's more when folks look at things on the most surface of level and kind of try to judge it or comment on it based on that very surface level.

That's maybe where I still can get a little kind of like get my haunches up.

And I think the gatekeeping aspect is overall just a negative thing that geeks should fight against.

But to me, I think because the way I want to approach everything in life, but especially this kind of media, is with a sense of wonder and curiosity.

This is not geeking necessarily, but I think it's very beloved by geeks in the same way it is by music theater nerds.

Music theater is of geeks and nerds, and the like, but you seem to lasso assume.

Yes, his speech about people who are judgmental instead of curious.

You know, I think that.

Anyone who you know, I've seen the people who are like, all right, I'm gonna watch this one star movie so I can know enough about it to tell everybody how stupid they are for.

Watching it, Like, that's not something you want.

But the people who come in with a sense of curiosity, like clearly you did, I think is great and I think it deserves curiosity back.

You know that when we do have someone who says, hey, like, one thing i think is really magical and beautiful that I'm seeing in Star Wars fandom all the time, and in geek fandom, and especially also in some of the games that I play, is people who are like, you know, my kids are really into this, my grandkids are really into this.

And I feel like that's it.

If people are mostly coming to this out of that sense of curiosity, and so those of us were in these communities, we should give that curiosity back.

You know.

It shouldn't be judgmental, It shouldn't be Oh, how can you have not read this episode of this issue or whatever it should be?

Hey, I'm glad you're here.

I'm curious about what brought you here and how you think about it and what do you see from not having seen all this for forty years the way I did.

Absolutely.

You know, my mom, who sucks, she will listen to this.

I can say that I love my mom.

But she said, I don't know how you're watching all that stupid stuff for your podcast.

Yeah, And I got so offended, Matthew, and I said, it's not for you, mom, And that's okay, but it's not stupid stuff just because it's not for you.

And I think that's a you know, she's the queen of judgment and I think that's a hard that's eye opening.

Why do we do that?

Yeah?

Why is it either or you know what?

It's really true?

And I think, you know, with science fiction and nerdery, I think there becomes kind of a chicken in the egg thing of for a long time, it really was catered specifically towards you know, single white men, often the one who weren't you know, the most kind of socially competent by by the established you know, neurodivergent, you know, things like that, and that becomes then a recurring stereotype of oh, you're one of those anti social types if you watch this.

Therefore, only those types watched that, And in many ways, I think the Internet was such a boon for those kind of cultures of letting people who are like, yeah, I'm not the best at a cocktail party, but if I can find my kind of people online and talk to them about it, we can build community and remember, like, we're not all just the one.

Kid getting shoved into the locker at school or whatever.

It is, right right, I'm sure the advent of the Internet launched all of this.

And when the MCU started making their movies and they were so star studed in mainstream and popular, that brought i'm sure a new generation back to comic books, back to superheroes, back to all of these fantastical things that, yeah, I mean, it is strange to think that they were once these entities were created for or that faction of society you just described.

And the other night I was reading Fourth Wing.

It's a romanticy, and I was sitting at a bar because I had to kill time waiting for my son, So I was sitting at the bar having a glass of wine reading this romanticy book and this mainstream she looked like a Kardashian ran over to me and said, Oh, which one are you on?

That's my favorite series.

I've read them all.

Oh, you're on the first one.

And she we were talking and talking, and I thought, how remarkable, you know, I mean, when a twenty somethingter Kardashian looking woman runs up to me, I'm assuming she's like, excuse me, ma'am, do you need help?

I don't like.

I'm amazed that she wanted to talk romanticy.

I get that well.

And I'm happy to say Riki Hayashi has been able to join us.

Welcome, Riki, Hello, give you a chance to meet Mandy Kaplin, host of the Making Make Me a Nerd podcast?

Hello, Riaky, Hello, Apologies my fault.

I forgot to one of mind Wreki that we were recording this week on this great.

Topic, Uh, Riaky.

We're talking though about, you know, sort of what it means to encounter geekery and nerdery at at different stages in life and and and come in into these things.

And I'm curious for you.

You're someone who kind of did you really kind of think of yourself as someone who grew up thinking of themselves as a nerd.

Were you into I know.

You've talked about liking anime as a kid, but things like science fiction and fantasy and stuff like that.

Was that always a part of your comic books?

Is that always part of your life?

Oh?

Absolutely, yeah.

I mean Star Wars was one of the foundational pieces of media that I enjoyed as a kid.

I don't remember it myself, but my parents have told me that they took me to see Empire Strikes back in the theater when I was barely a toddler.

But Return of the Jedi was was the movie that I've remember seeing and being amazed, and we got it on VHS and I actually also had like a audio cassette like version of it, you know, not like the whole movie, but kind of like a summary, and I listened to that all the time.

I watched the movie all the time.

And then back to back years like Ghostbusters and Back to the Future, which are kind of like soft sci fi slash fantasy, were movies that really compelled me.

And then yes, growing up, I watched a lot of.

Anime comic book stuff.

I don't remember when I got into I think that was more kind of like back toward via like Batman the animated series, and then I got into the physical comic books themselves.

And of course I am Japanese, and you know, there's the stereotype that Asians are into anime drawing that kind of stuff, and I did do a little bit of that as a kid, and I had friends who were who were into that and we talked about things, you know, like Robotech, Dragon Ball, et cetera.

So yeah, like I would say that I have always been a geek as far back as I can remember.

Nice.

Yeah, No, that I think is very much kind of where I was coming from as well.

But I love hearing that it's also in very different directions.

Like anime was something that I think I was very like on the outskirts aware of, but wasn't really a part of my life until much later in my life.

Certainly drawing, I can't draw water, so I'm always embrassed by those who can get into that kind of stuff.

I wasn't that good.

I remember I had two friends that were really good at drawing like robots and stuff, and I would try, but I never I would say, I never put that much as much effort into it as they did, so they were just more practiced and better at it.

It ended up I was I was like better at writing than drawing.

M Well and Manny, you were just telling this great story about kind of meeting a total strain who were really into the same kind of like romanticy book that you were reading, and it reminds me.

I think it's kind of a really wonderful statement about where we've gotten to in our culture.

And you know, earlier I was talking about the stereotype of you know, from the fifties sixty seventies of like you know, sci fi fantasy was only the realm of like neurodivergent white men, and I think that's never really been the case.

There's always been lots of it around for all sorts of people, but that was very much the stereotype that got and so that was the stuff that if anything was picked up by by bigger studios, that's what was picked up.

But you know, when I was growing up, my mother would always tell me that it's important to get buy in society.

You need to know enough about the sports to be able to talk about the game last night.

And it turns out I'm a huge sports fan.

But what she meant was like, people are going to talk to you at the water cooler, at the wedding, at whatever social gathering we are about the game, whatever sport it was, And so it's good to know enough to be able to converse about that.

And I think now it's funny that now it's the I do get people being like, Hey, Matthew, what's the new big Marvel thing?

Because I'm going to, you know, my high school reunion and I want to be able to talk about this stuff.

And I'm going to my cousin's wedding and I know someone's going to ask me about the new Star Wars?

What's the new Star Wars?

And like there's a part of me that at the time and still feels like there's nothing you should know about just because you can talk about other people.

But it is a sign of just how much we've changed that now those are the mainstream conversations for a lot of people.

Not for everybody but any means, but for a lot of us.

Probably streamers had a lot to do with that.

You know, that they could bring back beloved shows that people could watch again, or reboots of things, or you know, Game of Thrones became such a huge water cooler thing, and without streamers, I don't know that any of those things would have been made.

So yeah, I think it's definitely true.

Sorry, Ky, are those is that like paraphernalia and toys behind you?

Oh?

Yeah?

On the video feed?

Yeah, I have a wall.

It's mostly Pokemon stuff, yeah, because I did.

I did stream.

Pokemon Go battles for a while, so that that's just kind of my default background.

I think there's other like anime paraphernalia as well.

It's so funny whenever I have a guest on they they they're like hi, and all I see in the background are action figures and comic books and you know all the the fun merch that goes with being a true fan about these things.

So yeah, well I definitely like post like Zoom Meeting era, everyone kind of has to think about like what's in their background and it's like a bookshelf and do you want to be taken seriously?

You know, do you have all the psychology books and history books or do you have toys?

Right?

Why not have to?

Like I love this stuff.

My camera's currently not working, but I have a bookcase behind me.

They're very very carefully curated, and there's a top row that's all my like philosophy and religion and ethical textbooks that I go too, and then the next row was all like dungeons and dragons and vampire books and things like that, you know, yeah, all the different sides.

My problem is that I'm a I was a history major in school, so all of my serious history books are like World War two and Hitler, and I'm like, I don't want my bookshelf behind me, now, thank you.

No.

I I mean I own a copy of mine comp because I wanted to read it.

I wanted to understand that level of evil.

But that's something that's going to be, you know, badly misunderstood.

So I get that.

I want to go back, Matthew, to what you're saying about sports, because it's interesting to me.

Sports is a geeky thing because I grew up in kind of like the savor metrics revolution, right, the moneyball era and statistics and like studying them, and fantasy baseball, like all the fantasy sports has really like bridged that gap between jocks and nerds has been like the traditional stereotypical divide, and I like, there are so many you know, Econ graduates from Yale and stuff in baseball, like working in baseball as general managers and stuff like that.

Now that I really like think that that divide is pretty artificial these days, in my opinion.

I hope.

So, yeah, well there's in doing my podcast.

It started off as if you're obsessed with sci fi or fantasy or anime or comic books, come on my podcast and share your passion with me and get me excited about it too.

But then I realized using the word nerd is broader than that.

Like I am nerdy about musical theater.

I am nerdy about Top Chef, so those aren't nerd entities necessarily.

Musical theater is a little borderline, but but I'm nerdy about that.

So I've I've done some episodes where like I did Survivor because I've never watched Survivor.

Oh my gosh, Survivor.

Right, And my guest is the editor in chief of Entertainment Weekly, who's beat is covering Survivor for the past fifteen years, so he knows everything.

He's obsessed and knowledgeable and nerdy about it, right, And so I think it's interesting to switch up what we're nerdy about and it's not just geek culture anymore.

And specifically survivor like those kinds of reality TV competitions really play into game theory.

Yeah, which is like a more traditional nerd avenue.

Totally.

Well, I think it makes a lot of sense, because I think you're right, there's something I think a lot of what the original term.

I think a lot of the way people often used to use the word nerd maybe sometimes still do, is it's not just about what you're interested in, it's the way you're interested in it, you know, in terms of like is it a show that you turn on on Thursday night and watch and maybe talk about on Friday morning and then go about your day, or is it something that you collect paraphernalia about or make charts about, you know, what planet appeared when, or what recipe appeared when?

Like to me, the person who wants to create a chart that lists all the different planets that different Star Trek episodes go to, and the person who creates a chart of all the different times that they cook scallops on Top Chef.

And he's not top scallop Yeah, exactly exactly.

Uh love love him so much?

You know that that it's the same kind of feeling, you know, and and therefore it applies to sports.

And I think there's a lot of great stuff that's been talking about how fantasy football, fantasy baseball, it's kind of like it it's D and D for people who are, you know, afraid to play D and D.

I love those things, and I'm saying you have to.

If you do those, you have to play D and D.

But like there still is some stigma among certain parts of the population.

They're like, oh, D and D, that's a nerdy thing.

It's all focusing on the numbers, but then doing that all the numbers of fantasy football, that's totally okay, when when they're both I think just as much a fun, fun pursuit of really diving deep into something and learning all about it and then trying to use that to your favor.

Yeah, and even even fantasy sports I think did for a long time carry a bit of a stigma, even amongst sports fans.

But nowadays with the online sports betting, even if you're not in like an actual fantasy sports league, everyone is playing fantasy sports because you are trying to predict outcomes and you are studying the players and the teams like, oh, like this player has an advantage.

You know, this batter has an advantage against this picture.

So I want to play this particular parlay.

That's that's just fantasy sports.

Yeah, which I am nerdy about fantasy football, and that's.

Great, that's great.

I'd love to have a podcasters league, you know, that could be really fun.

We should talk about it's been a long time.

I'm a little bit out of out of it.

Well, I but I also I used always get in trouble in fantasy football because I would if there was a very good Jet available, I would pick him, even though maybe there was someone better.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Can you back up?

Did you say a good Jets?

Well no, that's my point is that now that there's no one good on the New York Jets anymore, I don't have that problem.

I just can't pick a Patriot ever.

But oh, Matthew, let's go.

Let me.

Let me pull us back to our main topic.

If you want to win, you got to get over that stuff.

No getting I will never draft a Yankee either.

But getting back to this, Mandy so in the stuff you've been experiencing, so Riekey bringing Flip Speed on Mandy's podcast Make Me a Nerd.

Each week someone comes on, and she said, kind of introduces her to their favorite you know part So I did Orville and uh Penguin and.

Uh the last of us.

Other people have done other things.

Manny, what are some of the things in particular that you've been surprised by?

Or Yeah, I started to go with that, like you may have had one kind of idea of it, or you had no idea what it was, but then you came out of that episode and watching that with it.

It surprised you.

It showed you something different.

Well, I'll say the Orville not just because I adore you and you came on the podcast, but I didn't think I would be crying and moved and so invested in the characters that really shocked me.

And the other one I would have to say is Severance.

My husband said, you won't like it.

It's like sci fi and weird and dark.

You won't like it.

It's not for you.

And I said, okay, thanks, I won't watch it.

And despite the fact that everyone in the world loved it, I was like, Nope, I've heard it's not for me.

Can't do it.

And I did it for the podcast, and I only promised I'll watch like the first couple of episodes to get the conversation going, and I didn't leave my room for two days straight.

I binged every episode.

I loved it so deeply.

I think it's absolutely genius and exciting.

And I should divorce my husband because why was he trying to keep me away from it?

But he was right.

Usually I would watch something with like oh, they alter their brains and I would be like, hmm, I'm out.

That's not for me.

But oh man, well, and what pulled you into it?

The concept was exciting.

It's like Stepford Wives or that the weird remake Don't Worry Darling.

I like those thoughtful, twisted ideas.

How far would you go to cure your pain or to you know, make your life better?

Would you surgically alter yourself or someone else?

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is one of my favorite movies, and I think Severance is very close to that and so and the world was so beautifully constructed and the set design is so masterful.

I just there's nothing to not like about Severance.

But I normally would have just never tried it.

If not for this podcast.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And I mean even that one was a little I think there's a couple of different schools of science fiction, and one of them is like, it's going to be very kind of ethereal almost and like you never, as the reader or the watcher, quite understand what's happening, and those tend to be ones that I really wrestle with.

But Severance and we have some thoughts on the ending, and by the way, I'm afraid to tell you that you may have just volunteered for our podcast episode on this most recent season about Severance that we're going to do sometimes.

Soon bring it up.

You know, I really love that That's a show where it.

Obviously has some interesting points it wants to make, but it's really not okay, it's not afraid of being just bizarre at times, Like there are things that happen then that you know.

I love shows that have like a well constructed lore and everything really fits and makes sense, and Severance does in a way.

But there's a lot of things where it's like, Okay, there's gonna be some random thing, but why was it?

Why a waffle party, why a melon party?

Parties like these things are just so random and weird, and yet they work so well because they're in this larger narrative.

Yeah, it's asking these hard questions about what how far can office drudgery go?

And on the flip side, how far can our desire for you know, denial of our own emotions and denial of that part of us that feels these things we don't want to feel.

And yes, and being able to take those incredibly relatable questions and put them in this totally bizarre environment.

It works in a way you wouldn't think.

And I don't know, but I imagine the question that severance must have been born out of somebody saying if I could just flick a switch and cure my grief, if I could just turn this pain off, I would do anything for that.

And it's like, well, there's your whole concept.

Everything falls into place, and we've all felt that.

I assume we've all grieved right and wished we could just turn it off.

Yeah.

I think they heard it was either Ben Still or Adam Scott talking about it about the concept of work, like the work day at an office and the disassociation and kind of the two lives syndrome, like you have your work life and your home life type of thing, and yeah, just making something out of that concept is fascinating.

And I think the mystery box aspects.

Say what you will.

About JJ Abrams not being able to tell us what's actually in his mystery box, but he constructs a good box in the beginning of all of his products, and I think they're amazing and they draw you in.

Is just I think part of it maybe fandom itself, like the discussions that we have on podcasts like this, and the speculation maybe gets out of control and speculate too much course, and then it's impossible to satisfy everyone because we all have our own.

Theories, right although interestingly, you know, yes, this is a new phenomenon and Reddit did not exist forty years ago.

I get that, But when JR got shot, my memory of that was like the world could talk about nothing else, and there were fan theories and people getting into arguments in bars like no, it had to be I don't even know the character names, but I just remember who shot JR.

Was just ubiquitous and I so this has always existed to some degree, and that was a nighttime soap, but they got people doing what we do about you know, fan theories on Reddit.

When they'd had one season where Bobby got killed and they found out that it was all it as one of the best writers, like, oops, we screwed up.

Let's just unwrite this whole season, you know, like I remember Dallas and that yeah it being And I think I think that's in many ways one of the most that's the way really you got to grab the social eitgeist these days, is something that that puts out a question that people are gonna want to discuss, you know, and it's a lot of us don't work in offices with a water cooler anymore, right, I never have, I'll be honest, in any real way other than like you know, temp jobs and stuff to pay for college.

But through the Internet, through you know, any place where people gather.

Yeah, those are the things that that that that sparked the attention.

And I think part of why for me, part of why I think your product is so interesting is because it really dovetails so well with the whole project of superhero ethics.

Because to me, the thing I've always found most exciting about all this media is yeaes spaceships are cool.

And lightsabers are fun and like the special effects are great.

But I like talking about questions, and I think a lot of people are really sick of discussing politics and discussing ethics and stuff like that.

But if you go up to someone and say, hey, did you watch that show about the alien race that has this weird practice?

What did you think?

It gets people talking.

Because it's kind of like a sneaky way into than realizing what do you think of the actual thing in our own world that that alien practice was happening as a metaphor for you know, and in Oreville we talked about that so much that right, yeah, what if there was a planet all of men?

It's kind of a fun thought experiment, but really.

It gets you thinking about how do we think of a gender in our own world or with any of those questions.

Sure, yeah, I mean I have marveled at how many times politics have come up because I watched one of these TV shows or movies.

And some of it is highly intentional to comment on our on today's society and what we're going through, and some of it I don't think is intentional, right, and it's just it's the human experience.

It keeps repeating itself, and it keeps coming up in our fiction.

Right, Riki, do you have a memory of what was kind of the first piece of media like that that really kind of hit you hard and got you?

Like you talked about how these things really shaped you in a lot of ways of what was the first thing that hit you in a way where beyond just like, oh this is really fun or I like watching this, some of you really left you thinking in some way.

I don't It was probably more books, I'm trying to think, because Star Trek the Next Generation did have a lot of good episodes that dealt with that.

But I really feel like it wasn't until I started reading science fiction, especially Enders Game and that whole series.

Speaker of the Day in particular was just for my like reading science fiction fandom was very foundational in making me think about stuff and making me think about humanity and like human beings and how like how societies work in interact and all that kind of stuff.

So that's what I would say, is like more reading science fiction.

I read a lot of Heinlein, like.

Post high school graduation, so he's he's got some weird books, but he also had some ideas about like what society would become, which have so far not proved to be fruitful.

But I think it was that idea of speculation and of thinking about what humanity could become that really drew me to a lot of his writing.

And what about you, Matthew, what was the thing that made you get deep?

For me, it was Star Trek but happened in kind of an intentional way because from a fairly young age, my mother would sit me down and watch episodes of the original Star Trek.

I was in kind of middle school, high school by the time Next Generation was coming out, but would sit down and watch these episodes and then she would ask me about them, and she talked to me about, so, yeah, these people who have you know, some people have black on their face and white on their face, and the others have those two colors, but reversed like did that make you think of anything you know that you know about and stuff like that, and you know, and it started, you know, I mean, that's kind of a deeper question.

Some of it started from from very young age, but you know, she would sit down and watch these things with me and then talk about them with me, And I think that's she really kind of so that that kind of really got me started on this whole idea of geeky media is, Yes, spaceships are great, and it's the special effects are really fun and that's fun to watch, but also it can really kind of be ways to engage in questions in new ways, and that's something that I've always really loved.

Yeah, that's the thing for I mean, my original kind of watch of Star Trek the Next Generation was more like starships and aliens and all that kind of.

Stuff the Borg.

But it was because that show when it was syndicated, was on all the time on one of the networks, right, and my friends and I would watch every day, just like a three hour block of it.

And so it was on that repeat viewing when you already know the plot, you already know all of the spaceships and stuff that I started to notice and started to pay attention to things.

I can see that, Well, we've gone an hour, and I don't want to keep Mandy too long, but I think, Mandy, you're definitely gonna be a repeat guest.

Yeah, let me.

I want to give you kind of a closing word, and then for our members, we are gonna have a bonus section that we'll get to in just a second, but Mandy, before that, give people a little bit more about how can they find more of your stuff?

Oh, make me a Nerd is available wherever you podcast production of True Story the Family, and Yeah, I'm on social media at Mandy Underscore, Kaplain Underscore, Craven's both with K's, and I'm on Blue Sky now at Mandy miscast in Miscast is the name of my cabaret I do in Los Angeles every three months, all for laughs and all for charity.

Awesome, awesome.

Yeah, well, it's been great having you on.

I will definitely have you back.

And let me stask what what's one thing that you have seen on on your podcast that you now have become kind of you're now telling other people about.

Oh boy, there's a lot The penguin I turned a lot of people onto I guess everyone had already seen Severance.

I'm trying to think of the more like obscure ones.

Yeah, you caught me off guard because I've done I mean, I'm that idiot at a dinner party who's like, I've never seen Game of Thrones, I've never seen Star Trek.

Like that's me or not me anymore, not the new me.

But I've never seen Thrones, oh Reky, But so I think most of what I'm doing is so loved.

I'm not discovering a little indie film and spreading the word about it.

Although here's okay, here's one.

There's a documentary from the mid nineties Seth Gordon called King of Kong.

Do you know this movie?

It is so yes, it is.

It's like waiting for Guffman.

But it's really a documentary about these two competing Donkey Kong players and how seriously they took their endeavors to be the champion Donkey Kong player.

The arcade version Arcade Kevin, Yes, and they're trying to get the high score.

So and this is all before like online you know speed run high Score culture too.

It's weird and interesting and absolutely hilarious.

I've never laughed so hard on my podcast.

I couldn't speak because we were reminiscing about these very interesting guys and how seriously they take this.

So King of Kong I love that.

Okay, cool, definitely definitely worth checking out.

Well, Manny, thank you so much.

Riky is always thank you for this, especially just jumping on Last Minute my fault.

We're not kind of poking about it from members.

Of course, please stick around.

We're gonna have a bonus member section in just a moment, and it's gonna include information about a new podcast idea that Mandy and I are gonna be kicking off pretty soon.

What and of course, to.

Become a member, it's just five dollars a month, fifty five dollars a year.

All the information about how to join us in our show notes, and as many mentioned, her podcast is on true story dot fm, so is this podcast.

We're both parts of that True Story family podcast, as is also the Marvel Movie Minute podcast, which I will be appearing on in the summer and fall, talking about four to two the Dark World, trying very hard to find things in that movie to enjoy.

I'm somewhat successful, but mostly try very hilariously to talk about the things I don't enjoy.

But all that podcast, check it out.

It's all worthwhile.

So hopefully you were to stick around for our members, but for everybody else, thank you so much.

We out