Jon Clayton: Are you an architect or design professional that's struggling to attract enough of the right clients and projects?

Then stick around.

Because I'm joined by leading architects marketing coach Richard Petri, to explain how you can build a marketing system that consistently attracts more of the right clients to your practice in this episode.

Of Architecture Business Club, the weekly podcast for small firm founders who want to build their dream business in architecture and enjoy more freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment in what they do.

I'm John Clayton, your host.

Having spent over 20 years working in architecture, I know how hard it can be to explain your services so people truly understand and value what you do.

Many firms struggle with this, but by sharing your stories on podcasts, you can become the trusted voice in your market, grow your brand, and attract much better clients.

We can help you with everything from podcast strategy and launch.

Production and management podcast hosting and guesting through to promoting and growing your show.

If you'd like to discover how podcasting could benefit your business, click the link in the show notes to book a no obligation chat about working with me.

Or if you're interested in being a guest on this show, email, John.

That's JO n@architecturebusinessclub.com.

Now let's learn how to build your marketing system.

Richard Petri is the world's foremost architect marketing coach and the co-founder of the Architect Marketing Institute, a leading provider of marketing, training and resources for small firm architects and building designers.

Their mission is to enable motivated architects to find freedom and fulfillment through exceptional projects and exceptional income.

Richard brings a high performance mindset to marketing for his architect clients all around the world, and is joining us on this episode to share his expertise.

To find out more about the system that Richard uses, head over to arch marketing.org.

Richard, welcome to Architecture Business

Richard Petrie: Oh, nice to be in the club.

Thank you for having me.

Jon Clayton: Oh, you're very welcome.

Yeah, it's, it's a pleasure to, to have you here from the other side of the world as well.

I'm in the UK and you're over in New Zealand, and, uh, with the, the wonders of modern technology, it's not a problem for us to meet

Richard Petrie: Not a problem.

The world is becoming a, a global marketplace.

We can do whatever we want whenever we want, can't we?

So it's about, I think it's about 8, 8 30 at night here, and it's morning for you, so you know.

10 years ago, I remember I started doing this.

We were doing, um, webinars and things like that about fif 15 years ago I started doing this type of thing.

And, uh, back then we had to explain what a webinar was.

We said, well, it's on the web and it's like a seminar, but just click on the buttons and turn up and, and you know, you'll, you'll see what it is when you get here.

And it was literally that when we started and now it's like.

Uh, it's commonplace, but 15 years ago we, we were doing it way back then and uh, it was a little bit weird for most architects, that is some time.

Jon Clayton: Uh, absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, uh, you were early adopters, I guess with a lot of this stuff, so, um, yeah.

But now we're, we're using it all the time.

Richard, we, we've got some great stuff that we're gonna talk about today.

Before we dig into all that, I, something I do know about you, you, you were a top level international cricket player.

Can you tell me a little bit about that?

I'd like to hear a little bit about that

Richard Petrie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I played, I played professional cricket in New Zealand for 12 years and I played 12 one day internationals for New Zealand.

So it's a 50 over game.

Played against England.

Uh, a few times got out Gooch and Goer, so some of your, some of your members

Jon Clayton: I won't hold that against you.

Richard Petrie: but, uh, they were, they were pretty good bats.

Gooch and Go.

And we played, uh, Australia, played Sri Lanka, played South Africa, and that was pretty much it.

And then, uh, then I had stress fractures in my back and a torn partial rupture of Achilles's tendon.

And that was kind of the end of my international career.

But it was fun while I lasted.

Jon Clayton: Oh, absolutely.

And it, and it brought you to the, the beautiful county of Lancashire, my, uh, my home county in the UK at some point during that career,

Richard Petrie: right.

Yeah.

No IED for one of the clubs in Lancashire and, um, loved it up there actually.

A lot more.

The Northern, the Northern Clubs are more community based and, and, and, you know, everyone comes and watches and drinks at the bar afterwards.

And so I loved it up in Lanre.

Really, really loved it.

It was probably my favorite cricket season.

I probably had about six or seven seasons overseas, but Lanker was probably the most enjoyable one.

Jon Clayton: Oh, and I'm sure you're not just saying that just because I'm from Lancaster, are you?

Richard Petrie: no, no.

We had a great team and, and the people were great, you know, a lot of characters there, but, um, and we won the league, which helps too.

So that probably helped the whole vibe of the, of the summer.

Jon Clayton: absolutely.

Ah, sounds fantastic.

We are gonna talk about how to build a marketing system so that.

Architects and other building designers, they can consistently attract more of the right clients.

So I'm really excited to talk about this today.

It's gonna be great topic.

So let's begin with looking at some of the challenges.

So what would you say that the challenges that architects generally face in winning the right types of projects?

Richard Petrie: Yeah.

Well, the most common sort of complaints I hear on a, on a daily basis would be not enough leads, not enough.

You know, the phone's not ringing enough.

That would be one I.

Um, another one would be we are getting, we're getting inquiries coming in, but they're the wrong type of inquiries.

They're not the type of projects we want.

And I, I read a stat the other day, not long ago actually, and it said that, um, only 5% of the buildings built have a, have an architect sort of fully involved in it.

So, you know, most projects don't, which is probably why a lot of the people ringing up.

They're not really, you know, either, they either don't have the budget or they.

You know, they'll, they'll talk, they'll pick your brains and they'll chew up some time, but they end up doing it with a drafts person or a do it themselves.

Or a builder will say they'll do it for free.

So there's a lot of frustration around the quality of leads.

Marketing doesn't generally work for architects or, or designers, not the traditional type of marketing.

So you follow stuff that you see online and you can be very frustrated and you can lose a lot of money by doing stuff that doesn't work.

The final one I would say would be you, you, you've done design fee resistance.

How, how do you feel about, you know, people questioning your fees?

Someone said there's no other profession in the world that has their fees questioned more than architecture and design.

I.

Right.

And it's, it's probably true.

You don't go to a lawyer, an accountant or a, or a doctor and go to the doctor, you know, no, you're gonna have to sharpen your pencil on that doctor before you do my, you know, my heart operation.

And he goes, I don't think I do actually.

Uh, I think you need to hurry up.

Sign the, sign, the check.

You need to get into the, uh, into the operating theater.

So pro architects, Fees being challenged, not enough good quality work.

And, and, and how do you differentiate yourself?

When there's a lot of other people who are highly trained, you know, you guys, you know, a lot of them, a lot of the architects who, who get qualified.

You, you've been working for five or seven years getting your qualifications or studying or you know, or at least three or four.

And, um, there's a lot of those people around.

So how do you differentiate yourself?

So there was lots of challenges for the industry, shall we say.

Jon Clayton: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

So you mentioned there, there was not having enough leads coming in, not having enough of the right type of leads coming in.

You also mentioned there about this.

That's that statistic that was actually really surprising.

That statistic you just mentioned, only 5% of buildings that that get, that get built, uh, have had an architect involved right through that.

And I mean, that's, that's quite shocking in itself.

Uh, quite a shocking statistic.

But again,

Richard Petrie: you drive around, you can, you look at the buildings, you can tell, you know, it looks about right, doesn't it?

Jon Clayton: Yeah.

I think though that it's it makes sense though that with a lot of those inquiries that that.

Potentially have been coming in that the, there's may be a misalignment in with some of the the architects and, and the practitioners, their expectations of what level of service that these potential leads are looking for versus actually how many of them are gonna be those high quality projects where they do want somebody right.

The way throughout the whole thing.

And obviously more of the right type of leads is what we want, isn't it?

Ideally,

Richard Petrie: about 5%.

So that's what you want calling you, but you're gonna get, you're gonna get probably the top 50% calling you.

So there certainly needs to be a bit of filtering and qualifying going on because it is very frustrating if you can't either attract enough of the right ones.

Well, you can't, you know, the other danger is that you, you think everybody that calls you up is a, is a proper prospect and is worthy of investing five to 10 hours in.

To see if there's a project there.

And, and in most of the cases, or many of the cases, there either isn't a project that really requires a top quality designer or the budget's completely inadequate, or the expectations from the client are not really what you want to be doing.

So.

I would, I, I kind of think that you, you, you need to be very clear about what, what a yes client or what a yes project is.

You need to get quite specific about that for you.

You also need to be really clear on what a no project is for you.

And you need to have the questions that tell you whether they fit here or here.

'cause you need to be able to sort that out quite quickly.

And if you can do that that's, I guess, that's part of the problem.

But you also need enough of the yeses coming through.

Right.

Yeah.

Jon Clayton: Yeah, it's easier to, it is easier to, to say no if you've got enough of those leads coming in in the first place, because then like you can, you know, if you're going to stick your flag in the ground and say, you know, we want to become known for this type of work.

This is what we're gonna do.

You like you say, you've gotta have enough leads coming in the first place to be able to use that filter.

To filter out those, um, leads that aren't so great a fit for you.

Interesting.

That is really interesting.

And um, the last thing he mentioned was about, um, the fees as well.

That is so true.

I can't remember the last time I went to the dentist or, or I went to get my car fixed or whatever that.

And I challenge that, but it is something that we often get challenged on.

And I think something as well, Richard, I dunno if you feel this, but there's a lot of architects out there that are sole practitioners that actually kind of makes up a, a biggest proportion of.

Practices out there is single person micros size practices, and often as creatives we get so emotionally attached to the work that we do.

And we can take it really personally if, um, somebody's like pushing back and it might just be that they're just the lead that's falling into that bigger percentage that are just actually not a great fit for what you offer.

But that is something that is definitely another one of those huge challenges.

So, um,

Richard Petrie: and if you don't have enough leads coming through, then you end up feeling you have to, you have to try and win all of those Noli you, you know, you feel you have to win the no clients as well, and it's just a, it is just a death spiral, you know, then if you feel overwhelmed and you're doing too many projects, you're doing too many no projects.

And, and I don't think most architects don't really have a problem winning projects.

They have a problem winning enough of the right projects, and that's the problem.

You know, if you imagine a, you know, you've got a bag of different colored lollies and really the green lollies are the good ones, but most, most architects and designers have all, you know, mixed a mixed bag.

And what all you all, you really, you know, the big picture is, this is easy to say, but what we need is, you know, half the bag needs to be green lollies and we'll be fine.

So then it comes down to, okay, well, well how do I get enough of the green, let's say green ones are the really good ones to make it really simplified.

You are gonna have to find a system or a method or a way, this is the answer, you know, that you're looking for to attract enough of the green ones where you can, where you're comfortable, you go, yeah.

Okay.

Well I'll, I've got enough of the green ones coming through.

You need to have an over it's supply and demand.

You need more greens coming through than you can handle so that you can start saying No.

'cause I don't think any firm is gonna be a successful firm UN, until you get to the stage of being able to say no and.

Jon Clayton: Yeah, so having more, more, um, demands than

Richard Petrie: Yes, and I know what you're gonna ask next.

How do we do that?

And we'll, we'll, we'll get into that.

But, but that's, that is the secret is, is, you know, we need more, we need to know what the right ones are.

We need to know how to attract them to us in such quantity that we can be a little bit more fearless about our pricing.

We can be a little more fearless about saying no to people.

If people have inadequate budgets or question our fees, we don't care.

Jon Clayton: Yeah.

Richard Petrie: got time to take all of you on anyway, and you are not really, I don't really want you, so if you think I'm too expensive, I think you are right.

You know, there are plenty of other architects or designers out there who are a lot cheaper than me and, and I think they would be a better fit for you.

Jon Clayton: Yeah, that, that, that totally makes sense.

And it does, it nicely segues onto what I was gonna ask next.

'cause we, we've really laid out all of those challenges there.

I'm sure that if you're listening to this, like you, you, you're gonna relate to a lot of this stuff if you're an architect or you're in practice for sure.

The good news is that there are is a lot we can do.

To solve and, and address these challenges, which is what we're gonna cover now.

So Richard, let's look at things from a high level point of view.

What, what high level strategies do you recommend that we, we should be thinking about when setting up a marketing system that's gonna address and solve some of these challenges that architects are often

Richard Petrie: Right.

Well, that's the first thing you, you said the word system.

So we need something which is systematic.

We need something which is reliable.

And predictable and brings us more of the type of projects coming towards us than, than we can handle.

So a system or a method or a way.

So one key thing when you're thinking about a system, one is a system is systematic.

That's step one, step two, step three.

And it's, you run a set routine, let's say every month.

So get the idea of you need a system in there.

The second thing is if you're gonna do marketing, the only real type of marketing that works.

Generally there's a generalization is when you target one type of project at a time.

So you know, it's good.

Most people have heard of niche marketing, and the analogy would be if I'm a fisherman, I.

And I went out and I live down here in New Zealand, so I'm on the Pacific Ocean.

And if I went out on a boat and I had a fishing rod and some bait and a hook, and I just went out into the Pacific Ocean somewhere, dropped my line, chances are I'll catch nothing.

And if I do catch something, oh, I've got, I've got a bite.

It's probably something I don't wanna eat.

So think of it, think of marketing like fishing I need to say, right?

What are the type of fish I want to catch?

And we talked about the green projects, but let, let's say in this case, there's a type of fish in New Zealand called Blue Cod I dunno if you get it up there, but uh, blue Cod is great fish.

So if I go right, blue Cod is the type of fish I want.

Now, now everything reverse the engineers back from Blue Cod Right?

Where do I find Blue Cot?

Uh, I could go to North Canterbury and I could go off the coast there.

'cause there's Blue Cod in North Canterbury, there's, there's Blue Cod in the.

In the, um, in the sounds at the top of the north island, it's not everywhere.

So I have to go certain places.

I have to, I have to have the right type of bait, which is suitable for Blue Cod I have to have the right hook.

I have to be in the right location.

Yeah, I, I, I, everything is geared up for, I've got a fishing rod and a location that's geared up for Blue Co and Blue Cod Only if I go anywhere, I'm not gonna catch Blue Cod So I would, you know, that's the same analogy for trying to catch a specific type of project.

You need to work out what are the projects that are my green projects.

My blue cod projects right now, we go to town.

Where are they?

What sort of bait do I need?

What sort of hook do I need?

How do I, how do I reel them in?

We can go into detail on there and there.

You want to go into specifics on this as well, but, but that's the metaphor to think of.

It's fishing and if you go, if you go to this ocean to try and catch anything, you'll probably catch nothing or you'll catch the wrong thing, and that's what you guys are doing with your marketing.

As you're doing very broad marketing, you're effectively going out into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, probably the the North Sea or something, and you are wondering why no one's biting or the wrong type of fish are biting.

That's why you've gotta think of fishing.

I.

Jon Clayton: I love that analogy that just, I can visualize that and that, that just makes it really easy to understand and when you, you put it in those words I.

It just totally makes sense.

Richard Petrie: Yeah.

If you want trout, you're gonna have to go to a certain rivers and you've got a different fishing rod.

You know, you've got a fly fishing rod, you've got fly, you haven't got a hook.

You're not gonna catch trout with your, with your other, you know.

So everything has to be geared up.

It's a custom fishing rod to catch a specific type of fish.

Jon Clayton: So if we can get really clear on the types of clients and projects, really specific about the types of projects we want to be working on, and then we could reverse engineer everything else from that to make sure.

That we're using the right gear, the right, the right setup, if you will.

The right systems.

Richard Petrie: Correct.

Jon Clayton: Cool.

Okay.

Okay.

could we talk a bit about offers?

we, could we lead onto, onto that because, I know that there's a few different types of offers that you've, you talk about Richard, that fit into this marketing system that we build out.

So once we're clear on who it is that we're looking to work with, the type of projects we, we gotta have the right offer for them, haven't we?

How can we create offers that people really want to talk to us about?

Richard Petrie: Good question.

Well, that's kind of like our bait, right?

Jon Clayton: Yeah.

Richard Petrie: It's, it's our bait.

So, but before we get to the bait, there's something else I want to, I wanna bring up, and that is that you think about clients or, or phish let's say clients as they're moving through their journey of wanting to do a project ultimately with an architect.

They go through a number of different stages to start with.

They, they're a little bit uncomfortable with their space and it doesn't really work for us anymore, or we don't have a space and we need a space.

Okay, so those people are kind of in the early stages.

They're in information gathering mode.

They're not ready to hire an architect.

They're not really spend a million pounds on building something.

But they are interested in it and they're in information gathering mode, right?

So, so, okay, that's cool.

If that's one stage, we'll need an offer for them, right?

Then once they've gathered some information, they go, okay, we've got a few ideas and we, we've got a rough idea of what we can and can't do.

Then they start saying, well, okay, now we've got this piece of land, or we've got this building.

What are some general things that we can do with this space?

You know, I've got some broad in, you know, I've got information gathering, but I need to sort it out to narrow it down a bit.

So I need some general information and, and they might go to a builder or they might go to an architect and go, you know, look, look what we got here.

What can we do?

Or here's, we've got some ideas.

Are these feasible?

And, and so that's the, that's another stage they get into, right?

Where they're, they're asking for sort of general advice and then now they need really specific advice.

'cause now they've, they've got a few ideas and they're going, right, we've got some ideas here.

It is this feasible?

How much will it cost?

How long will it take?

Who's the best person to hire to do it?

So now they're moving into.

I need specific advice.

I've gone from, I need general advice, now I need specific advice.

And then they go into, all right, now I need to hire an architect.

Now I need to hire a builder.

Now I need to hire, right?

So there's, there's the information gathering sort of mode.

There's, I need general advice to, to sort my ideas out.

Now I need specific advice.

Now I need to hire people.

Right now I need to design.

And, and so, okay, so there there's several different phases.

So what I reckon and what, what, here's the problem with, I think what most architects marketing is when they go and make an offer, it's pretty much, Hey, I'm a, I'm a designer.

I'm really good.

Look at my portfolio, hire me.

Go, go to my website, look at my portfolio.

It's, it's, it's, you know, it's like a flasher.

Which is really only appealing to the, a very small number of people at the very end of the process who are ready to go right now.

And they may be speaking by this point, they may be getting three or four proposals from different architects.

So what I'm saying, nothing wrong with that, but it's a bit late sometimes.

I wanna be coming into the process earlier.

So the, the four offers that I like.

Putting in place, and this is your sales process.

We have an educational offer or, or a range of them so that these might be tools and resources, we'll just call it a green project, right?

Um, tools and resources.

For anyone considering doing a green project, you might be asking, you know, how much does it cost to do a green project?

How long does it take?

What are the steps we have to go through?

You know, what, what do you have to do to get a permit for a green project?

Those type of questions, we can create tools and resources for that.

Great.

Okay, so we can get leads by offering up problem solving information for people who are doing a green project.

Next step.

Alright.

Let's say someone downloads my green report.

They have to gimme their name and email address and phone number and, and, and I'll send that to them.

Okay.

They've downloaded a green report on what, what will it, what does it cost, and how long does it take, and what's the process?

Then I go, okay, well if this is something you're interested in and you want some general guide, general guidance, you can book a 45 free, you know, session with me and I'll, I'll, I'll take you through a bit.

I'll give you a sort of a, an action plan on where you should go.

Right.

I'm not gonna give you specific advice, and I'm not gonna tell you how much it'll cost, but I'll have a meeting with you.

I'll listen to where you're at and I'll go Right.

Your next step is 1, 2, 3.

Oh, thanks very much.

But I want a meeting 'cause you need a meeting, right?

I need to get them into a meeting.

So I'll give 'em some advice, but then I wanna step them up to my next step, which is okay if you want me to help you, you know, I've given you three things to do.

You can do number one, you can do number two, but you probably can't do number three.

If you'd like me to do number three, it'll cost you a couple of.

Costs you 1500 pounds.

And I'll go and do the research.

I'll do the analysis and I'll come back to you and I'll do some diagnosis.

Like a doctor would do.

A surgeon would do diagnosis before they do an operation, right?

Any professional has to do a diagnosis.

A, a lawyer would do, uh, you know, pre-deposition, they call 'em, doesn't they?

And an accountant would do an audit and a doctor would do a diagnosis like all professionals do, paid diagnosis.

Then I'll do my prescription, which will be, here's what I think your next steps are.

Here's your options.

Not, not design yet.

Not design.

I'll just prescribe.

It's like a, A surgeon wouldn't, you know, they'd do a diagnosis, then they'd come back and go, right, here's what I found.

You've got three options.

Here's the pros and cons of each option.

I recommend option.

Number three, but it's up to you.

What do you think?

And they go, yeah, I think number three as well.

Okay.

If you would like, you know, we can move down the option three path and, and I'll, you know, we move into design, but they're paying for me to work out what the best option is, not the design.

So this is more of a, this sales process is more of a consultative sales process.

You're more like a consultant or a.

And, and what I've discovered is the way most architects will do it is they get a phone call.

Hello?

I'll come around to your site for free and give you lots of information.

Sure.

Yes.

Yes, sir.

No, sir.

Three bags full.

I'll be there in five minutes.

Turn up at the site.

Get your brains picked, give away great ideas.

Maybe, here's a sketch, you know.

Oh, can I have a copy?

Yes.

Oh, there's the, there's the sketch.

Can you do a proposal for me?

Oh, oh yeah.

Okay.

Um, I was, it was my daughter's birthday this weekend, but I'd much rather spend 10 hours doing a proposal for you.

Then going to my daughter's birthday, um, give you the proposal and then, and then I'm just waiting for you to, and to me that's more of a sales process, whereas the one I outlined is more of a consulting doctor, surgeon type process.

It's more, I think it's more professional.

Um, I know it works better.

Um, I know you get paid for doing your diagnosis and prescription instead of doing it for free.

It ends up what you're asking for.

The first sale you're asking them for is a small, you know, 1500 pound diagnosis, research, analysis exercise that you're gonna do for them.

Clients, you know, some people be sitting there and go, oh, my clients wouldn't pay that.

They would, the, the genuine clients who, who, who are architect,

Jon Clayton: The right clients.

Richard Petrie: the top 5%.

much rather pay $1,500 for you to go and do some diagnosis than commit to your proposal where you're asking them for half a million pounds.

I'd much rather pay $1,500 for you to go and work out what is the best option for me than pay.

You pay half a million pounds, which includes your fee.

Maybe it's, you know, maybe you've got a 50,000 pound fee in there, like that's high risk.

I don't, I don't really want to do that.

I'm happy to do the 1500 and what we found is, is that once someone commits to the 1500 pound job, which is much easier to get a yes for because it's more common sense and it's more in line with, with what every other professional does, let's do some diagnosis first.

They're five times more likely to say yes to you for, for design than if you are throwing them a proposal.

And yeah, maybe you one a three or something like that.

And then you just, you, you often go into a holding pattern where you're waiting for them to give you an answer and they're not answering.

It's not just a case of having your marketing right, you've gotta have your process right as well.

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Now, back to the show.

These four offers we're talking about.

So what we're not talking about is four different things that are for people that are all, all ready, ready to buy.

The four offers that you've described, they are hitting, each one of them is for a different stage in that client's journey.

And they're aligned with how ready they are to buy.

You mentioned that.

You might have somebody at the very beginning that is not ready to hire an architect.

They are information gathering.

So there is that first offer, which could be, you mentioned like an informational type product, so that, I guess it could be like A-A-P-D-F guide.

It could be a, a video masterclass, it could be some kind of resource that you create that you could reuse.

Time and time again you can share with people.

And then you mentioned then that the next offer is something that's more more general advice, wasn't it?

The second offer.

So they're, they're kind of like, okay, we, we we're se we're getting more serious about doing this project, this idea.

Like we wanna know a little bit more about what this is gonna look like.

You know, what it's like working with an architect, that sort of thing.

And then you said the next stage was that you get into the point where you're giving them some more specific advice then.

So as we get into that, those third and fourth points, like we're getting to the point where.

You mentioned about like the id the analogy of like, um, a doctor, like a doctor's appointment where there's like an audit or assessment that happens and diagnosis, doctor's diagnosis.

That's the word I was looking for.

And you, you're absolutely right.

The conventional way that things happen in most instances is that we have, we have one main offer, which is only really appealing to, I mean, I think statistically they say in, in any.

Audience.

I think it's around about 3% of that audience are typically at the point where they're ready to buy.

So we, we have an offer that's only appealing to 3%, whereas actually, if we've got these four different things in place, we've got offers that are gonna appeal to a hundred percent depending on what stage they're at, that they can tap in and get the right offer.

We have the right offer for.

The right stage that that client is at.

And during that process, those offers are also gonna act as a filter, aren't they?

They're gonna filter it down so that by the time we get to that third and fourth touch point there, that actually a lot of the clients that were a bad fit, they've already gone elsewhere.

'cause we've filtered them out through this process.

Richard Petrie: Or the other thing that happens.

Because some of these people who get on think of it as getting, you know, you've got a bus going along and they, we don't care.

There's bus stop, 1, 2, 3, 4.

Depending on where where they are, we don't care.

We'll pick them up on bus stop one, take 'em to two, take to three, take 'em to four.

It may take a year or two for some of the people who get on a bus stop, number one before they do a project.

That's fine.

If I've got a hundred.

People who have, expressed interest in getting on a bus stop, number one for, for, you know, some problem solving information.

That's all right.

I mean, I had a hundred of them, let's say 50 of them never do a project, but over the next two years, 50 of them do.

Well, it's, that's two a month are becoming, are coming ready.

They'll, they'll, they'll come ready when they're ready.

So if I've got a nurturing system, I'm picking people up there.

Yes, I'm picking them up for meetings, free meetings.

I'm then moving them into a paid meeting, which is the discovery or the diagnosis.

Then I'm moving in them into design.

I don't really care where I pick them up.

So what I am doing is I'm helping my marketplace out.

I'm giving them four different ways that they can be helped, and if they're not ready for two years because they kept getting on a bus stop, number one, that's fine.

I, I'll continue to educate them.

I'll give them tools, resources, I'll stay in touch with 'em.

When they're ready, they can book that meeting with me.

The first one, when they're ready, they'll book the second one.

And if I've got enough of these green type of clients in there, it's a numbers game.

It's a numbers game, but everything, every one of those offers is custom made to be really, really useful and relevant and valuable.

For someone looking to do a green project.

Jon Clayton: It's very specific, isn't it?

And that's, that can only until you're clear on exactly.

What type of projects you wanna be working on.

You've gotta do that first, haven't you?

In order to then be able to kind of design these other offers and make sure you're providing the right type of information, particularly with that the first point where we're looking at something that's like an informational type product.

Product, uh, we've gotta know exactly.

What type of thoughts they're having, what type of considerations they're having for that specific type of project to make those make those digital products or whatever they're gonna be.

Richard Petrie: we, we, we do generalize to some degree because we do know there are some questions that it doesn't matter what market you are in, how much will it cost, how long will it take what's the process?

Who are the experts I should be connecting with, with a green project?

They're all asking, yeah, they might say, for my green project, okay, how much the green project costs, what's the process?

How long does it take?

Who are the, so we can customize some of it, but for example, you know, I've got a guy in Phoenix, uh, Arizona, Phoenix.

Yeah.

Phoenix.

And, and you know, he targeted Hillside properties, right?

And I said, well, what, you know, other than the general things that we've always got, you know, is there anything else?

And he goes, yeah, well it's Hillside.

So.

Most of the people have to do a retaining wall.

Oh, right.

Okay.

That's a good one.

So, alright, well, can we can, okay.

Yeah.

Well, let's do a report on retaining walls.

What do they cost?

How long do they take?

Who?

Who should who can you recommend?

We can do a whole, we know that if someone's downloading something on retaining walls for hillside properties in Phoenix, they're thinking of building brand new Excellent.

Good bait, good quality bait.

No one's building a retaining wall.

Who's not thinking of building a, a fancy property on and hillside, you know, so

Jon Clayton: yeah, I I wouldn't be downloading that, that, um, PDF unless I was that, that person.

Absolutely.

This, Richard, this leads us nicely on, actually, I was wondering if you could share some more examples of, of architects or related professionals who've had success with, with this approach.

Richard Petrie: Yeah.

Um, yeah, we've had about 1200 people go through the program.

So, well the first architect I ever had, uh, was a lady called Mona.

So she was in New Zealand and.

I said to her, I'd never worked with an architect before.

And when she rang up, she said, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't think this will work for me.

She came to a workshop I was running in Wellington and she said, you know, I don't have any money and I don't think your marketing or, I really enjoyed it, but I'm an architect.

I don't think it worked for me.

And, and I didn't know any better.

And I said, oh, well, okay, maybe it won't.

And anyway, she hired me you know, for $10,000 and six.

You know, we worked together for six months, but I wasn't quite sure that.

She'd, she'd sowed the seed of doubt to me.

So anyway, I said, well, I think the first thing we've gotta do is we've gotta pick a niche market that it doesn't mean, you know, and when I say pick a niche, I'm not saying green projects are the only projects you have to be doing.

What I'm saying is you've got a green project winning machine that you've built.

And if you are a, a firm that has multiple markets, that's fine.

You've got a green fishing rod, you've got a blue fishing rod, you've got a red fishing rod, but they're all a bit different depending on who, you know, the green, red and the blue fish.

So anyway, she picked, um, character homes, so these are villas in New Zealand and they're all about 1900.

And so we positioned her as New Zealand lead.

New Zealand's lead.

I said, I said, does anyone else specialize in character homes?

She said, I don't know anyone.

I said, well, right.

Well then you are New Zealand's leading character home architect, aren't you?

She said, well, I couldn't say that.

And I said, well, why not?

No one else specializes in it.

You do.

You specialize in it.

She said, well, I am now.

I said, right, well let's call you that.

And she said, but what will I, and he, this is, this is a key point.

Listen to this, everybody, she said, but what will other architects say?

Right.

But, but isn't that how most of you guys think?

What will other, what will my peers think?

They that, and she said, you know, she said that, that they don't, they won't think that I'm a, I'm a New Zealand's lead that, you know, I can't say that.

'cause my other architects will think, no, she's not.

New Zealand's leading.

I said, what do we care about?

What they've, are they gonna, they're not gonna hire you.

Why are we doing our marketing based on what we, what, what other architects think?

That's crazy.

So anyway, we got over that mental hurdle and um, and I think she did become, because she picked up a whole lot of projects in that area because she became, not only became a specialist, but presented herself as a specialist and as New Zealand's leading character home architect, she did become probably New Zealand's leading character home architect.

And when you.

When you start getting a reputation as New Zealand's leading character home architect, then when someone wants to do a really good job, you are seen as the number one.

So you start being more attractive to the top end of those wanting.

They want the best.

So the people who are spending the most money want someone who specializes in that type of project.

And for them, money's not an object.

I just want the best 'cause I can afford the best.

So there's not really any bad things.

That doesn't mean if a blue project can, you know, rings her up and says, do you want to do it?

And she likes the look of it.

She can still do the blue project, but her marketing system, her, her green fish catching system is designed for catching green fish and green fish only, and it does.

Jon Clayton: I love that.

So, that, that, that story really illustrates the power of, of being really clear on the niche and the type of projects that you're looking to work with.

And I, I like that you shared there that.

To give some reassurance that people are listening, you're listening to this thinking, oh, but I, you know, I, I can't, I can't niche down.

I'm, I'm scared of nicheing down too far.

It doesn't mean you, you, you, you don't do any other stuff.

It just, you can still take on other projects if you wish.

It's just that, that marketing machine that you're building, that sort of client attracting machine, the system is gonna be working to attract more of those right clients, the ones you really, really want more of.

It's the green fishing rod for the, you know, the green projects for the green fish or the, the blue cods.

Let's, yeah, we won't confus them with the blue cod.

Let's just keep it green.

Too many metaphors.

Yeah.

Oh, that's, that's really interesting, Richard.

Okay.

What would be the main thing you'd like everyone to take away from this?

Because we've we've covered quite a bit, but we've given them something that, I think this is something that's actually.

You've laid it out in such a way that makes this quite simple for people really.

But what would be the main thing you want 'em to take away from what we've been

Richard Petrie: Well, I think, I think the main thing is a lot of people would say marketing doesn't work for architects.

You know what a bit like the, a bit like the projects, they're right.

You're right.

99% of marketing doesn't work for architects.

You know, you're not selling ice creams or guitars or cars even.

You are selling a high priced professional service.

So most of the marketing that gets taught online or even, you know, even, even anywhere, I mean, I went to university and did a marketing degree and.

It taught me nothing about selling anything.

It was, it's very theoretical, very, theoretical, and it would be sort of corporate theory.

Like useless.

So don't think that if you didn't go to university and do a marketing degree, you're at any disadvantage.

All the marketing I learned was sort of, um, after university.

But, but so on one hand, I wanna say yet, 99% of marketing doesn't work.

You are right.

You have wasted money, you've done too much social media, you've spent too much money on your website.

You've probably done too much cold calling and networking, but hopefully I've outlined the one per.

You know this makes sense when you, when you hear it, you go, oh my goodness, this is common sense, right?

This is the 1% method that does work, and the only reason, it's not that I'm a genius or anything like this, but this is what I've been doing for 15 years, is just working with architects, helping them win better projects.

So you see, and you test enough stuff.

That sooner or later you start to notice things that do work.

And so marketing does work for architects.

You've gotta get it just right though, so have confidence.

If you do the things that, that I discussed this today.

You can, you know, this is podcast and you can, uh, you can record it, you can go back, you can listen to it again.

You can, you can go onto our website.

John gave us the URL earlier on.

You can go, there's a whole lot of free resources on our website.

You can go and have a look at or, or you can get coaching from us.

But, you know, I've mapped out everything you need to do.

Um, at a high level.

And if you've got that framework in mind, then you are stacking the odds in your favor of actually being able to put in place something that does actually work.

Jon Clayton: I love that.

Thanks, Richard.

Is there anything else that you wanted to, to say about the, the topic that we haven't already covered?

Richard Petrie: I think architects, you know, or design business, you are only as good as the projects that you can win.

So get very clear about what are the right projects and very clear about what are the wrong projects.

And, and really your job is to, to, it's as simple as that.

Your job is to win more of the right projects so that you can say no to more of the wrong projects.

And if you can do that, your income goes up.

I think you know your enjoyment.

There's certain projects which you probably love doing, you know, those are the.

You wanna be winning the projects that you love doing and that where you can earn a decent fee on, and, and that's your job is, is find a way to win more of those ones because.

If you're just taking stuff that's coming in the door, it can be a pretty, so, you know, difficult sort of a business to run.

So it, it does come down, actually, sorry, let me sum that up on one thing.

Your first job, and, and a lot of people might not like this, but your number one job is you're a marketer of design services first, right?

That's your number one job.

If you're a business owner, you are a marketer of design services first.

Your second job is you are a designer.

Right.

If you just say, oh, but I don't wanna be a marketer of design services.

I just wanna be a designer.

Fine, go get a job, right?

Get a job.

Someone else will do the marketing and the sales for you.

But if you're gonna run a firm, you gotta, you gotta learn to win those projects first, and then you get to do them.

But if you don't do job number one, which is win the right projects.

Then there is no there either.

Either there is no job number two of doing the design, or you're doing crummy design for crummy clients with crummy budgets.

So your number one job you're a marketer of design services First.

Jon Clayton: Oh, that makes so much sense, Richard.

Uh, that's some tough love for everybody, but the, it's a message that they need to hear because if we don't have enough of the right leads coming in, then you can't get to do.

You can't get to do the work on the projects that you love to work on.

So, if you wanna be happier and more fulfilled in the work you do and get paid the type of fees that you deserve, you really need to, you know, set some time and resources aside for that number one job of doing the marketing and, and winning those, uh, those leads.

I've got a question for you, Richard.

Just to wrap things up, it's not about the topic.

I just love to travel and to discover new places.

I was just wondering if you could tell me about, uh, one of your favorite places and what you love about it.

And this could be near or far.

Richard Petrie: Sure.

A couple of years ago, me and my wife, um, 'cause I, I work online.

I'm a bit like you John, so I've got a laptop.

My business is on the laptop.

Um, pretty cool.

And so I can, I can be anywhere in the world and, and my wife likes to travel, so I.

We had, uh, we, we, we have a couple of rental properties and a French couple rented one of our rental properties in Wellington, in New Zealand, and it was on this sort of a home swap site.

So they, they, they came and lived in, in our house for three, well, one of our rental properties for three months.

And they said, we've got a, we've got a sort of a holiday house in the French Alps.

Would you like to swap?

Yeah.

You mean, you know, we don't pay anything.

Yeah.

You, you don't pay us.

And we, so anyway, we went to the French Alps.

It was a place near Shamini.

Um, it was called, Solange.

It was a little village, about 20 minutes from Shamini.

So we were in the middle of the French Alps, not far from Geneva, not far from Shaman, not far, just through the tunnel to Italy.

Um, and we were there for, um, three or four months.

So that was just it.

It's a mountain village in the Swiss, in the French Alps.

And then because of that, 'cause we enjoyed it and the environment and the, you know, it's right underneath Mont Blanc, right?

And you, you know, in the summer you can go swimming in the lake, but there's the glacier and the Mont Blanc up there covered in snow and you are swimming in the, so anyway, we, we love the mountain sort of thing and we, we moved to a place in New Zealand, um, called aka, which is sort of the New Zealand version of that.

And, um, yeah, we, we loved our time in France.

We learned a little bit of French.

We ate some of the French food and got into the French lifestyle.

And, uh, just a great place to go to if you ever can.

Jon Clayton: Oh, that sounds amazing.

Yeah.

You know what I'd, I've yet to make it to the Alps, and I love the mountains just.

Crazy.

You know, I live in the uk.

It's actually not that far away.

So, um, definitely on my bucket list.

Um, for sure.

So Richard, thanks again for joining me today.

Really enjoyed the conversation and, um, I, I, I think this is just so valuable what we've been talking about.

Could you just remind everyone where's the best place online to connect with you?

Richard Petrie: Uh, well, if you go to our, our website is Arch Marketing, A RCH.

marketing.org.

Just go there.

It's our website.

There's a whole, you know, there's a whole lot of offers there.

There's a whole lot of free, there's lots of blogs with that.

Explain a lot of the concepts that I've explained today.

They're, most of 'em are, well, they're all free.

Um, so go there and help yourself to all the free stuff.

And if you find yourself wanting to upgrade, then it'll be very easy for you to do that on the website.

Jon Clayton: That's awesome.

Thanks again, Richard.

Richard Petrie: Thank you, John.

Jon Clayton: Next time I'm joined by Heidi Uri to talk about long-term online strategies to build your visibility without burnout.

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