1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,113 As teachers, we spend quite a bit of time grading and thinking about what to grade and what not to grade. 2 00:00:05,113 --> 00:00:12,086 It's so important that we really do think this through though, because there are certain mistakes that we can make that can really actually demotivate our students. 3 00:00:12,086 --> 00:00:20,160 So let's dive in and talk about how we can set up our grading and our waiting to really benefit our students and encourage them rather than discourage them. 4 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:25,068 Well, welcome back to the Teach 4 the Heart podcast, where we tackle teaching challenges from a biblical perspective. 5 00:00:25,068 --> 00:00:25,839 Why are we here? 6 00:00:25,839 --> 00:00:30,643 Because we don't believe our spiritual walk and teaching profession should exist in two separate domains. 7 00:00:30,643 --> 00:00:36,029 Rather, the hope we have in Christ should change how we approach everything, not just at home, but at school as well. 8 00:00:36,029 --> 00:00:44,056 So join us as we explore both the spiritual and practical sides of key teaching challenges, integrating them together so we can succeed at teaching, glorify God, and make 9 00:00:44,056 --> 00:00:47,019 a lasting difference in our students' hearts and lives. 10 00:00:47,019 --> 00:00:50,592 This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Herzog Foundation. 11 00:00:50,722 --> 00:00:55,176 I'm so excited to be joined once again by Ashley, one of our team members and Teach 4 the Heart Plus mentors. 12 00:00:55,176 --> 00:00:57,585 Ashley, thank you so much for being here with us today. 13 00:00:57,585 --> 00:00:58,884 Thanks for having me. 14 00:00:59,290 --> 00:01:06,917 So we're gonna be talking about grading mistakes that we can make as teachers that can really demotivate our students. 15 00:01:06,917 --> 00:01:15,524 But on the plus side, if we fix them, can really be helpful oh for our students and to give us an accurate reflection of what the students are actually learning. 16 00:01:15,524 --> 00:01:21,639 And just as a quick explanation, when I say grading mistakes, I'm not talking about how when we grade, we're all gonna make mistakes. 17 00:01:21,639 --> 00:01:23,331 We mark an answer wrong that should be right. 18 00:01:23,331 --> 00:01:24,792 We miss one that should be wrong. 19 00:01:24,792 --> 00:01:25,623 That's part of life. 20 00:01:25,623 --> 00:01:26,533 That's not what I'm talking about. 21 00:01:26,533 --> 00:01:27,554 I'm talking more about 22 00:01:27,554 --> 00:01:36,384 when we think about what to grade and how we grade it and how we weight it and how many points things are worth, are we doing that in a way that's an accurate reflection or are 23 00:01:36,384 --> 00:01:40,027 we doing some things that are inadvertently discouraging students or 24 00:01:40,430 --> 00:01:46,270 So it can be so easy for us, I think, to make some kind of these key grading mistakes. 25 00:01:46,270 --> 00:01:55,530 And one of the things that's so important though, as we think about real quick from just a higher level perspective is how can we make grading an accurate reflection of what 26 00:01:55,530 --> 00:01:56,350 students are learning? 27 00:01:56,350 --> 00:02:04,930 When we think about our grade book, the specific grades we put in it, how we weight different categories, I really think that is one of the key things is how is this an 28 00:02:04,930 --> 00:02:06,510 accurate reflection? 29 00:02:06,510 --> 00:02:09,934 And are the numbers that are kind of coming out of these formulas 30 00:02:09,934 --> 00:02:21,052 um Are they accurately reflecting and are they reflecting how the student is growing um over the course of the quarter or not growing over the course of the quarter? 31 00:02:21,052 --> 00:02:22,854 What would you say about that, Ashley? 32 00:02:23,323 --> 00:02:31,909 Well, so as an English teacher, this is something that, because English can be subjective depending on how you grade it. 33 00:02:31,909 --> 00:02:33,830 And so it can be really tricky. 34 00:02:33,830 --> 00:02:39,784 um And so I think that just taking the time to sit and think, what does this grade reflect? 35 00:02:39,784 --> 00:02:47,057 And even just if you open your grade book and scan through it, can you tell me what that assignment shows mastery of? 36 00:02:47,057 --> 00:02:50,152 Can you tell me what the C on that assignment shows for that student? 37 00:02:50,152 --> 00:02:52,958 Or is it just show he did an F a C job on it? 38 00:02:52,958 --> 00:03:01,081 Like making sure that we can actually speak to what the assignments we're grading are showing about our students mastery of our subject is so. 39 00:03:01,438 --> 00:03:02,999 Yes, absolutely. 40 00:03:02,999 --> 00:03:09,914 So there's so much we could say on this, but we're gonna kind of arrange it by talking about some mistakes, some things that we want to avoid, and obviously then we'll also talk 41 00:03:09,914 --> 00:03:11,645 about what to do instead. 42 00:03:11,645 --> 00:03:19,250 So the first mistake we have on our list is testing or assessing material that you didn't emphasize in class. 43 00:03:19,250 --> 00:03:25,975 So one way that this can look is if you have maybe a test that comes with your curriculum. 44 00:03:25,975 --> 00:03:27,756 And so it's like, great, I have this test. 45 00:03:27,756 --> 00:03:30,582 um But then when you're teaching, 46 00:03:30,582 --> 00:03:36,086 you're not necessarily focusing on the things that the curriculum focused on, that the test focused on. 47 00:03:36,086 --> 00:03:43,852 So what you did in class, and then when the students sit down to take the test, it's like, okay, some of this stuff might be hard. 48 00:03:43,852 --> 00:03:45,113 This was hardly mentioned. 49 00:03:45,113 --> 00:03:47,785 And so we shouldn't just say, well, it's in the textbook. 50 00:03:47,785 --> 00:03:49,477 I just told them to study the textbook. 51 00:03:49,477 --> 00:03:56,428 If what you're testing on the test is not what you emphasized in class, you're creating a disconnect and you're teaching your students that. 52 00:03:56,428 --> 00:03:59,249 Yeah, I don't really need to listen in class because it's not on the test anyhow. 53 00:03:59,249 --> 00:04:03,251 And it doesn't really matter how hard I try in class because it's not really going to help me on the test. 54 00:04:03,251 --> 00:04:07,802 And we do not want that's very demotivating and also unfair. 55 00:04:07,843 --> 00:04:09,794 And so we do not want that. 56 00:04:09,794 --> 00:04:14,085 So I would say for me, the way I dealt with this is I did not use the pre-made tests. 57 00:04:14,085 --> 00:04:15,346 I knew what I emphasized. 58 00:04:15,346 --> 00:04:16,416 I knew what was important. 59 00:04:16,416 --> 00:04:17,947 So I made my own test. 60 00:04:17,947 --> 00:04:19,367 But that's not the only way to do it. 61 00:04:19,367 --> 00:04:23,249 If you want to use their test, though, you need to look through it and go, OK, what is emphasized? 62 00:04:23,249 --> 00:04:25,794 And I'm not talking about teaching to the test, not at all. 63 00:04:25,794 --> 00:04:28,671 But just aligning, what am I assessing? 64 00:04:28,671 --> 00:04:31,489 If this is what's important to assess, I need to teach this. 65 00:04:31,489 --> 00:04:35,039 And if this is not what's important to assess, then I need to change the assessment. 66 00:04:35,039 --> 00:04:42,331 Yeah, I'm so glad that you started with that because that's one of my biggest pet peeves and I know it's one of the students, that's what I hear students complain about the most. 67 00:04:42,331 --> 00:04:44,642 That wasn't even, they didn't talk about that. 68 00:04:44,642 --> 00:04:47,233 And then they're like, someone will say, well, was on the study guide. 69 00:04:47,233 --> 00:04:52,494 Well, that's even frustrating for a student to be forced to study something for the first time that wasn't taught in class. 70 00:04:52,494 --> 00:04:57,296 uh just, it can be really discouraging and I think students don't understand. 71 00:04:57,296 --> 00:05:02,389 So, and even if you do want to use a pre-made test, that's fine, but make sure you reread it. 72 00:05:02,389 --> 00:05:03,809 every time you teach it, right? 73 00:05:03,809 --> 00:05:11,829 So if you're recycling a test from last year, because I found like, oh, I emphasize something different in this unit than I did two years ago when I taught it or one year ago 74 00:05:11,829 --> 00:05:12,789 when I taught it. 75 00:05:12,789 --> 00:05:17,149 And so then you might have to adjust and delete, even if it's a test you wrote, delete questions. 76 00:05:17,149 --> 00:05:21,869 Oh, you know, we really didn't end up talking about puns that much in Romeo and Juliet this year. 77 00:05:21,869 --> 00:05:22,909 We just didn't emphasize it. 78 00:05:22,909 --> 00:05:24,049 I emphasize other things. 79 00:05:24,049 --> 00:05:28,549 Delete that, add a new question that really focuses more on what you did talk about. 80 00:05:28,589 --> 00:05:30,285 And then that's, think, just... 81 00:05:30,301 --> 00:05:34,810 a really important part of you saying, taught this, what did you learn? 82 00:05:34,810 --> 00:05:40,902 And so then that number means something versus I taught a general Lee something related to this, you know. 83 00:05:40,902 --> 00:05:41,582 Exactly. 84 00:05:41,582 --> 00:05:42,893 Okay, yes. 85 00:05:42,893 --> 00:05:43,404 I love that. 86 00:05:43,404 --> 00:05:47,186 So number one, do not test over material that you didn't emphasize in class. 87 00:05:47,186 --> 00:05:53,941 Make sure what you are emphasizing matches because you should be emphasizing what's important and you should be testing what's important. 88 00:05:53,941 --> 00:05:56,732 So I'm gonna give a little 1A. 89 00:05:57,143 --> 00:05:59,675 Don't ask little baby details on the test. 90 00:05:59,675 --> 00:06:04,438 Maybe a bonus, that can be fun, but like test over what matters, test over what's important. 91 00:06:04,438 --> 00:06:06,670 Don't test over minutia and trivia. 92 00:06:06,670 --> 00:06:08,411 Okay, that's just 1A. 93 00:06:08,411 --> 00:06:10,292 Number two, number two mistake. 94 00:06:10,292 --> 00:06:13,033 testing before students are ready. 95 00:06:13,253 --> 00:06:24,416 So just if the majority of the class is still confused about the topic or they don't really know it or they're not really getting it, it is not fair to just give them a test 96 00:06:24,416 --> 00:06:26,117 because we got to get this test in. 97 00:06:26,117 --> 00:06:33,289 um We need to make sure that the majority of the class understands what we're doing before we give, like I'm talking about like a test assessment. 98 00:06:33,289 --> 00:06:35,389 I'm not talking about formative assessments or those along the way. 99 00:06:35,389 --> 00:06:37,480 I'm talking like the major, the test over this. 100 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,182 this material, they need to be ready for it. 101 00:06:40,182 --> 00:06:42,073 I'm not, please hear me. 102 00:06:42,073 --> 00:06:44,585 There is responsibility for the students to study and prepare. 103 00:06:44,585 --> 00:06:48,468 Okay, if they didn't put in their time studying, that is on them. 104 00:06:48,468 --> 00:06:54,573 But if we didn't make sure that they understand the material in class, that is on us. 105 00:06:54,573 --> 00:06:58,696 And I think a good cue is like, what percentage of my students get this concept? 106 00:06:58,696 --> 00:07:04,200 um Not necessarily what percentage of my students put in the time to memorize what they need to memorize. 107 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,282 But the concepts, are they getting the concepts? 108 00:07:06,282 --> 00:07:11,769 This is especially true, think, in math, science, things where it's like you need to grasp these concepts. 109 00:07:11,769 --> 00:07:22,021 If the majority of the class or like half the class or even a third of the class is clearly still confused, then we haven't taught it well enough yet to test them on it. 110 00:07:22,021 --> 00:07:23,661 Absolutely, I second that. 111 00:08:27,812 --> 00:08:34,837 I think one of the things that we could talk about real quick too here though is there is a difference between grading to assess and needing to give feedback, right? 112 00:08:34,837 --> 00:08:42,403 um So there's many things along the way where, uh you know, the test at the end typically is like, okay, I need, I want to assess what they learned, right? 113 00:08:42,403 --> 00:08:44,405 It's grading for that score. 114 00:08:44,405 --> 00:08:48,520 But there's a lot of points along the way where we're like, well, I need to see how they're doing. 115 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,661 And we do these intermediate assessments and those are, those are different. 116 00:08:52,661 --> 00:08:54,469 Do you have any thoughts on that, Ashley? 117 00:08:54,469 --> 00:08:59,473 Yeah, actually, this is one of my soapbox things that I really really passionate about. 118 00:08:59,473 --> 00:09:04,237 um I read a year or two ago a book called Flash Feedback. 119 00:09:04,237 --> 00:09:12,424 ah I can't remember the author's name off the top of my head, but um it was really, really helpful for me as an English teacher, especially because he specifically talked about 120 00:09:12,424 --> 00:09:18,358 this, saying it's two different things to give a grade that actually assesses versus giving a student feedback. 121 00:09:18,358 --> 00:09:19,291 And this is why. 122 00:09:19,291 --> 00:09:24,566 especially as an English teacher, but all teachers, grading is so time consuming because very often you're doing two things at once. 123 00:09:24,566 --> 00:09:27,409 You're trying to give feedback and assess. 124 00:09:27,409 --> 00:09:34,826 And so he talked about splitting those and being really aware of this is an assignment where my focus is to give feedback versus this is an assignment that I'm actually 125 00:09:34,826 --> 00:09:35,657 assessing. 126 00:09:35,657 --> 00:09:44,185 And they don't always have to be separate, but just at least having that awareness of when am I trying to give them the feedback um and also keeping in mind. 127 00:09:44,249 --> 00:09:49,663 Are you giving the feedback on a test that's already done that they can't retake, that there's nothing they can do about? 128 00:09:49,663 --> 00:09:52,154 That's discouraging, speaking of demotivating. 129 00:09:52,154 --> 00:09:53,806 By the way, here's everything you did wrong. 130 00:09:53,806 --> 00:09:56,418 Well, that would have been really helpful to know before I took this test. 131 00:09:56,418 --> 00:10:02,482 So like being aware of giving them enough feedback to prepare them so that then this is where the student responsibility then does come in. 132 00:10:02,482 --> 00:10:06,485 If you've given them feedback, no, Bobby, that's not right for X, Y, Z. 133 00:10:06,485 --> 00:10:11,601 You're using the formula wrong or you're not understanding this concept correctly. 134 00:10:11,601 --> 00:10:19,781 And if you've given Bobby all that feedback and he has just like ignored it, ignored it, ignored it and gets to the test and then you're assessing him and Bobby doesn't do well, 135 00:10:19,781 --> 00:10:21,101 well then that's really on Bobby. 136 00:10:21,101 --> 00:10:30,221 But at least you can follow the trail of I gave you feedback and I told you where you were getting it wrong and I sat in front of you and we talked about it and I gave you a quiz 137 00:10:30,221 --> 00:10:32,481 and told you on the quiz why you were getting this wrong. 138 00:10:32,481 --> 00:10:36,761 And so then the test really is a true assessment of Bobby's effort. 139 00:10:37,021 --> 00:10:40,582 And you know that you did your work as a teacher to get him where he needed to be. 140 00:10:40,582 --> 00:10:43,542 That's such a good point, Ashley, and that's super, super helpful. 141 00:10:43,702 --> 00:10:48,342 So, so far we talked number one, mistake, testing of a material that you didn't emphasize in class. 142 00:10:48,342 --> 00:10:56,462 Number two, testing before students are ready, kind of, and going along with that kind of confusing formative and feedback with that final assessment. 143 00:10:56,462 --> 00:11:02,262 Number three, we're gonna start getting into a few other things that kind of do with a little bit of math, so don't get scared. 144 00:11:02,262 --> 00:11:05,282 Number three, though, asking too few questions. 145 00:11:05,282 --> 00:11:09,542 So, I think one of my pet peeves, and I think it's really bothers students too, is when you have like a 146 00:11:09,542 --> 00:11:12,802 three question quiz, a five question quiz. 147 00:11:12,802 --> 00:11:20,182 If you have a three question quiz and someone misses one question and you give them a two out of three, that is 67%. 148 00:11:20,182 --> 00:11:25,622 So I don't know what your grading skill is, but for most that's a D, some it's even an F for missing one question. 149 00:11:26,082 --> 00:11:29,202 If they missed two questions, they now have a 33%. 150 00:11:29,202 --> 00:11:31,442 Five question isn't a ton better, right? 151 00:11:31,442 --> 00:11:33,622 Minus one's an 80, minus two's a 60. 152 00:11:33,622 --> 00:11:37,862 So just thinking like those, I'm not saying you can never ever do that, but just be. 153 00:11:37,862 --> 00:11:39,323 careful about that. 154 00:11:39,323 --> 00:11:40,534 Use that sparingly. 155 00:11:40,534 --> 00:11:43,266 Once again, maybe that's not a grade. 156 00:11:43,266 --> 00:11:46,598 Maybe that's just like that formative assessment or that feedback type thing. 157 00:11:46,598 --> 00:11:54,454 I'm just trying to see how you're doing, but just recognizing that students can get really frustrated because they see those low grades over just one or two things that they didn't 158 00:11:54,454 --> 00:11:55,374 know. 159 00:11:55,535 --> 00:11:58,307 So you can, in some cases, you just need to ask more questions. 160 00:11:58,307 --> 00:12:01,479 You need to give them two, or in some cases, you need to curve it. 161 00:12:01,479 --> 00:12:03,801 So for example, I'll tell you something that I did. 162 00:12:03,801 --> 00:12:05,972 When I was teaching math, 163 00:12:06,242 --> 00:12:12,364 I gave homework and at some point I didn't grade it, but at some point I was like, I want to grade this because students weren't taking it seriously. 164 00:12:12,364 --> 00:12:24,408 But I normally gave about six or seven problems, but I did not feel like it was fair to give them, you know, to actually give them like, if they missed half the problems, I 165 00:12:24,408 --> 00:12:28,749 didn't want to give them an F because the point was to practice and to work on it. 166 00:12:28,749 --> 00:12:32,038 So what I did was I counted each problem as minus five. 167 00:12:32,038 --> 00:12:35,938 So they missed one, it was 95, two 90, three 85, you know. 168 00:12:35,938 --> 00:12:43,278 And so if they had six problems and they missed them all, they still got a 70 as long as they made an effort, as long as I could see an honest effort and them actually working and 169 00:12:43,278 --> 00:12:47,818 do showing their work and really trying each problem, the worst they could get was a 70. 170 00:12:47,818 --> 00:12:51,998 And the reason I did it that way was because, look, it's good, didn't feel like that was fair. 171 00:12:51,998 --> 00:12:59,998 And I just thought it, I felt like that was an accurate reflection of what I wanted and the combination of I just want effort, but yet if you get them all wrong, you really 172 00:12:59,998 --> 00:13:01,267 shouldn't get 100. 173 00:13:01,267 --> 00:13:01,606 Yeah. 174 00:13:01,606 --> 00:13:03,566 But I didn't want you to get a zero either. 175 00:13:03,566 --> 00:13:09,906 So I guess I'm kind of combining two mistakes here, but I think too few questions is something to definitely be aware of. 176 00:13:09,906 --> 00:13:14,886 But the bigger thing here is just thinking through, once again, is this number an accurate reflection? 177 00:13:14,886 --> 00:13:17,985 If they miss one point and get a 67, is that really accurate? 178 00:13:17,985 --> 00:13:20,746 Or should I give them maybe count them 10 points each? 179 00:13:20,746 --> 00:13:23,606 You know, just kind of thinking through what am I trying to do here? 180 00:13:23,606 --> 00:13:25,614 And is the number that results? 181 00:13:25,614 --> 00:13:27,961 an accurate reflection and if not, can adjust it. 182 00:13:27,961 --> 00:13:32,793 Make a scale that is an accurate reflection of what you're trying to do. 183 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:34,739 I love that idea. 184 00:13:34,739 --> 00:13:42,599 I've never thought of just making the questions like that point value so that completion still factors in, but you're not solely giving a completion grade. 185 00:13:42,599 --> 00:13:44,599 It's not a you did all of it, you get 100. 186 00:13:44,599 --> 00:13:50,899 But then also keeping in mind how like, OK, but you got it wrong, so let's deduct just this minus five. 187 00:13:50,899 --> 00:13:52,579 I absolutely love that idea, actually. 188 00:13:52,579 --> 00:13:53,900 So that's really interesting. 189 00:13:53,900 --> 00:14:00,080 Very cool, yeah, I really ended up happy with that system and I adapted it in different ways, just for different assignments, it really worked out. 190 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:06,980 But once again, give yourself that freedom and that intentionality, think is, intentionality, think is really a key word when we think about grading and waiting. 191 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,920 So we're gonna get into more grades, waiting in a second, but this one's a little bit simpler. 192 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,620 Now, grading mistake number four, giving one grade to a whole group on a group project. 193 00:14:15,620 --> 00:14:19,892 I'm not gonna say never do this, but group projects are tricky because, 194 00:14:19,892 --> 00:14:26,947 You typically have a combination of really strong students, you you've got a mixture of strong students, weak students, students that did a lot of work for the project, students 195 00:14:26,947 --> 00:14:29,119 that did hardly any work for the project. 196 00:14:29,119 --> 00:14:36,163 And it can be very frustrating, particularly to your good students if they know their grade is dependent on stuff that they can't control. 197 00:14:36,163 --> 00:14:40,616 And it also can be honestly demotivating for your lower students if they're just like, I don't have to do anything. 198 00:14:40,616 --> 00:14:42,860 These good kids will carry the grade. 199 00:14:42,860 --> 00:14:48,512 So Ashley, I don't if you have thoughts on this, but one thing you can do is you can give, once again, make your grade a combo grade. 200 00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:56,964 There might be a score for the final product that is only a percentage of the score, and then a larger percentage of the score is that person's individual part. 201 00:14:56,964 --> 00:14:58,125 What did they do? 202 00:14:58,125 --> 00:15:08,628 Get scored separately from the entire project, and then they get put together so that the end is largely influenced by the individual work, not just the whole component. 203 00:15:09,433 --> 00:15:09,723 Yeah. 204 00:15:09,723 --> 00:15:14,304 I mean, I'll keep it really short, but I use group work mainly for formative stuff so that it isn't a set. 205 00:15:14,304 --> 00:15:19,155 would, would rarely if ever use it for some type of actual formal assessment. 206 00:15:19,226 --> 00:15:22,437 but formative is great because then they are getting support from their peers. 207 00:15:22,437 --> 00:15:31,319 I'm always very clear with them about how they're being graded to alleviate concern so that they know that their grade isn't dependent on the other person, both to motivate the 208 00:15:31,319 --> 00:15:34,920 lower students and then also help calm down the higher students. 209 00:15:34,930 --> 00:15:38,201 and then, um, I do tend to like to assign parts. 210 00:15:38,201 --> 00:15:39,139 So like say like. 211 00:15:39,139 --> 00:15:46,361 you pick a part, whether that's, you know, everybody writes in a different color marker or whatever it is, but a way so that I'm actually assessing that individual student still 212 00:15:46,361 --> 00:15:49,565 only individually, even if it's a group thing that they're doing together. 213 00:15:50,292 --> 00:15:52,373 I love that idea of having different colors. 214 00:15:52,373 --> 00:15:54,353 That's fantastic, a great way to do that. 215 00:15:54,353 --> 00:16:01,065 ah That's obviously could be a whole topic of itself, but definitely just think once again, that intentionality and thinking this through and thinking it through from the 216 00:16:01,065 --> 00:16:06,577 different perspectives and I'm like, if I am grading this, ah or do I just wanna use this more formatively? 217 00:16:06,577 --> 00:16:07,697 I love that. 218 00:16:07,957 --> 00:16:12,608 Mistake number five is having too few grades in the grade book for the quarter. 219 00:16:12,608 --> 00:16:14,529 my goodness, I see this all the time. 220 00:16:14,529 --> 00:16:19,062 This is a really, really common mistake and I know it can be hard. 221 00:16:19,062 --> 00:16:21,524 There's so much going on, especially elementary teachers. 222 00:16:21,524 --> 00:16:25,437 You have so many different subjects, but you've really got to watch your gradebook. 223 00:16:25,437 --> 00:16:32,352 If you don't have at least, I would say a minimum of 10 grades in the gradebook at the end of the quarter, that is not an accurate reflection. 224 00:16:32,352 --> 00:16:38,016 I've seen gradebooks with like three or four grades, and that is just, that is not fair to a student. 225 00:16:38,016 --> 00:16:40,687 They get one bad grade, they are sunk. 226 00:16:40,728 --> 00:16:45,231 And you know, you got your good students that are really trying for the A's and there's just no way to make that up. 227 00:16:45,231 --> 00:16:46,604 um And... 228 00:16:46,604 --> 00:16:48,784 And it's just, it's not an accurate reflection. 229 00:16:48,784 --> 00:16:51,964 If it's just one or two things, you don't know if someone had an off day, a good day. 230 00:16:51,964 --> 00:16:56,164 And so you have to have at least a minimum. 231 00:16:56,304 --> 00:17:03,924 And that 10, 10 still makes me really nervous to be honest, but I know in certain subjects you only have so much, but you have to have a minimum number of grades in the grade book. 232 00:17:03,924 --> 00:17:06,204 If you don't, it's just, it's not fair to them. 233 00:17:06,204 --> 00:17:07,884 does not give them an accurate chance. 234 00:17:07,884 --> 00:17:15,422 And it's just not going to be an accurate reflection because it's really only these couple of high points or low points instead of being enough throughout the quarter. 235 00:17:15,422 --> 00:17:21,077 And if you're like, don't, but I can't get them, just, recommend talk to someone in your school because there are ways to get these grades. 236 00:17:21,077 --> 00:17:24,270 Like it does not have to be, you know, ton more tests. 237 00:17:24,270 --> 00:17:28,176 There are definitely a ton of ways that you can get some more grades in the grade book. 238 00:17:29,145 --> 00:17:33,710 I think keeping in mind the intention behind grades is to give you information as a teacher. 239 00:17:33,710 --> 00:17:37,094 And so you should be gathering that information much more frequently. 240 00:17:37,094 --> 00:17:40,098 then grades also communicate to the student. 241 00:17:40,098 --> 00:17:48,657 So if you're only communicating to the student three to four times how they're doing, that can be very demotivating or confusing, or they just don't know. 242 00:17:48,657 --> 00:17:49,930 I don't know how I'm doing. 243 00:17:49,930 --> 00:17:50,840 Yeah, absolutely. 244 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,012 And when I said 10, I'm thinking basically like one a week, right? 245 00:17:54,012 --> 00:17:59,373 At least something every week leaves you with nine or 10, you know, by the end of the quarter. 246 00:17:59,894 --> 00:18:02,455 So, number five, too few grades in the grade book. 247 00:18:02,455 --> 00:18:05,016 Number six, okay, we're going to get a little bit of math, but we can do this. 248 00:18:05,016 --> 00:18:10,898 um Not enough grades in a particular category so that waiting is skewed. 249 00:18:10,964 --> 00:18:18,606 I could go on a whole thing about waiting, but for here, we're just talking about, you know how a lot of times, and this is not the only way to set up a grade book, and it's not 250 00:18:18,606 --> 00:18:23,607 even necessarily the way I would recommend it, but it's super common to wait categories. 251 00:18:23,607 --> 00:18:27,318 So this is not a recommended example, this is literally just an example. 252 00:18:27,318 --> 00:18:34,200 Tests are 40%, quizzes are 30%, homework's 20%, classwork's 10%, you you have those broad categories. 253 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:40,722 But what can happen is sometimes, if within a particular category, you only have 254 00:18:40,722 --> 00:18:46,967 one or two grades, that one grade can get weighted way out of proportion. 255 00:18:46,967 --> 00:18:48,608 So let me give you an example. 256 00:18:48,608 --> 00:18:52,661 Let's say that tests are 40 % of your grade and that you want them to be big test. 257 00:18:52,661 --> 00:18:55,447 You're like, these are the big tests, they're important, 40%. 258 00:18:55,447 --> 00:18:58,635 And let's say you give three tests throughout the quarter. 259 00:18:58,836 --> 00:19:02,710 So each one is roughly then like 13 % of their final grade. 260 00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:03,579 Does that make sense? 261 00:19:03,579 --> 00:19:06,281 40 % divided by three, so it's 13 % each. 262 00:19:06,281 --> 00:19:08,062 That's appropriate for a test. 263 00:19:08,246 --> 00:19:13,986 Let's say then you have quizzes are 30%, but you actually don't give a lot of quizzes, it just didn't work out that quarter. 264 00:19:13,986 --> 00:19:16,586 Let's say you only give one quiz, I've seen this. 265 00:19:16,586 --> 00:19:18,346 You have one quiz for the quarter. 266 00:19:18,346 --> 00:19:20,586 Well, do know how much that one quiz is worth? 267 00:19:20,586 --> 00:19:24,266 It's worth the full 30 % of their grade. 268 00:19:24,266 --> 00:19:26,166 And that is not what you meant to do, I don't think. 269 00:19:26,166 --> 00:19:31,008 You did not mean for this one quiz to be 30 % of their final grade. 270 00:19:31,008 --> 00:19:35,281 But it is because it's the only one in the category or there's only two in that category. 271 00:19:35,281 --> 00:19:41,044 those one or two quizzes ended up being worth more than the test because it wasn't right. 272 00:19:41,184 --> 00:19:52,220 just recommend kind of looking at that, looking how many grades and that simple formula of the percentage of the category divided by how many grades are in the category shows you 273 00:19:52,220 --> 00:19:54,912 how much each particular thing is worth. 274 00:19:54,912 --> 00:19:58,344 And if you're like my mind is glazing over, don't like those numbers. 275 00:19:58,344 --> 00:20:03,540 I highly recommend get someone in your school that's good with numbers to just look over your grade book. 276 00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:06,273 They could in just a few minutes say, hey, do you realize this is doing this? 277 00:20:06,273 --> 00:20:07,985 And do you realize this is doing that? 278 00:20:07,985 --> 00:20:10,167 And once again, um it's just not good. 279 00:20:10,167 --> 00:20:16,173 Ashley, you mentioned sometimes you having teachers say like, uh man, I put in one grade and it affected the grade this much. 280 00:20:16,173 --> 00:20:17,044 Is that a problem? 281 00:20:17,044 --> 00:20:20,537 It's like, yes, this is a waiting issue. 282 00:20:20,685 --> 00:20:21,696 Yeah, exactly. 283 00:20:21,696 --> 00:20:28,009 even keeping in mind, like, so keeping in mind your weights, but even keeping in mind the point values you're assigning to things, like they shouldn't be arbitrary. 284 00:20:28,009 --> 00:20:31,031 It shouldn't be like, I think the final is going to be 150 points. 285 00:20:31,031 --> 00:20:34,974 It's like, well, so then how does that impact all the other things in that same category? 286 00:20:34,974 --> 00:20:42,978 Because that also, I'm not a math teacher, so correct me if I'm wrong, Linda, but I'm pretty sure that that also equally will disproportionately weight that one assignment even 287 00:20:42,978 --> 00:20:45,930 within that same category if the point value is just arbitrarily huge. 288 00:20:45,930 --> 00:20:47,661 And if it is worth that much, 289 00:20:47,661 --> 00:20:53,895 for work or effort or what it's showing, great, but like just being aware of that, not just throwing out random numbers for what stuff is worth. 290 00:20:54,186 --> 00:20:55,777 Yes, that is super important. 291 00:20:55,777 --> 00:20:59,490 And I'm not gonna get too much into the math of that because it depends on how your software is set up. 292 00:20:59,490 --> 00:21:01,921 Some software takes all of them and averages them evenly. 293 00:21:01,921 --> 00:21:03,893 Other ones do it according to the point value. 294 00:21:03,893 --> 00:21:08,456 So yeah, 150 points is worth three times a 50 point. 295 00:21:08,456 --> 00:21:13,779 So I think what's really important is that you understand what the numbers in your grade book are doing. 296 00:21:13,779 --> 00:21:22,345 And I know that can sound scary, but if you're like, if that does sound scary to you, I wanna really encourage you, like I said, to get with someone in your school that does. 297 00:21:22,345 --> 00:21:24,170 uh 298 00:21:24,170 --> 00:21:24,641 worth it. 299 00:21:24,641 --> 00:21:26,663 You're really doing a disservice to your students. 300 00:21:26,663 --> 00:21:32,169 If you don't really understand what your waiting is doing, then you're giving these numbers kind of arbitrarily. 301 00:21:32,169 --> 00:21:38,046 if there is, if you don't understand how your waiting is working, I can almost guarantee you you're doing something unfairly. 302 00:21:38,046 --> 00:21:40,368 If this is just something that you're just like, it's too overwhelming. 303 00:21:40,368 --> 00:21:46,064 that best advice I can give is um if it overwhelms you, like I said, talk to someone else, get their help. 304 00:21:46,194 --> 00:21:48,436 They'll be able to really help you with it. 305 00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:53,129 And if you're like, no, I do understand the numbers, I just hadn't really thought about it, then I just wanna encourage you to think about it. 306 00:21:53,129 --> 00:21:56,311 Go in there and look and just say, yeah, what are these numbers doing? 307 00:21:56,311 --> 00:22:03,976 And also pay attention, like you were mentioning Ashley about, if you pay attention, if you put a grade in and it's like, notice how big of a difference it makes and ask 308 00:22:03,976 --> 00:22:05,227 yourself, is that accurate? 309 00:22:05,227 --> 00:22:06,018 Is that fair? 310 00:22:06,018 --> 00:22:09,851 Now, obviously in the beginning of the quarter, they're gonna make bigger differences because you only have a few grades. 311 00:22:09,851 --> 00:22:15,234 But especially as you go along, ask yourself, do I feel like these are fair representations? 312 00:22:15,238 --> 00:22:16,619 of my students' grades? 313 00:22:16,619 --> 00:22:18,550 And if not, start asking those questions. 314 00:22:18,550 --> 00:22:21,752 Is it because, am I pretty, are my weighting these things the right amount? 315 00:22:21,752 --> 00:22:23,883 Am I giving them the right number of points? 316 00:22:23,943 --> 00:22:28,806 These things can kind of, these are the questions to ask and there's not one one size fits all answer. 317 00:22:28,806 --> 00:22:36,021 The best way to weight it is the way that is an accurate reflection and that of what, and it's based on what you are doing and what you believe too. 318 00:22:36,021 --> 00:22:37,151 So I'll just say one more thing. 319 00:22:37,151 --> 00:22:41,194 um You know, when you think of like tests, how much is a test worth versus, 320 00:22:41,194 --> 00:22:44,057 versus formative assessment versus participation. 321 00:22:44,057 --> 00:22:46,279 There's not one magical formula for that. 322 00:22:46,279 --> 00:22:49,602 It really does depend on what you believe is important for your class. 323 00:22:49,602 --> 00:22:54,186 For math, I believe that, can you actually do the math was very important. 324 00:22:54,186 --> 00:22:58,149 so tests and quizzes were weighted more, but I also gave partial credit. 325 00:22:58,149 --> 00:23:05,415 So in other words, for each question, if they got it 95 % right and they just added wrong at the end, well, they got 95 % of the credit for that credit. 326 00:23:05,415 --> 00:23:08,808 So I really felt like I was giving them all of their points. 327 00:23:08,982 --> 00:23:11,042 Anyhow, my point is I thought that through. 328 00:23:11,042 --> 00:23:14,622 I have other teachers that are like, no, like their participation is so important. 329 00:23:14,622 --> 00:23:21,682 That's the number one thing in this class because we're reading and we're practicing and I just need them to really make sure that they're doing the work and that's really an 330 00:23:21,682 --> 00:23:22,222 important piece. 331 00:23:22,222 --> 00:23:24,882 And so that's a bigger percentage than it is in another class. 332 00:23:24,882 --> 00:23:35,342 So once again, I just think it's about thinking through being intentional and making the numbers work to match what is important to you and for your class and your age and all of 333 00:23:35,342 --> 00:23:35,950 that. 334 00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:39,340 And I think that um it's okay to talk to the kids about this too. 335 00:23:39,340 --> 00:23:43,921 Like it's okay to be really transparent about how you're grading and why you're doing it that way. 336 00:23:43,921 --> 00:23:47,802 That gives them confidence in you and it gives them confidence and understanding of their grade. 337 00:23:47,802 --> 00:23:51,703 And I've even done things before like, well guys, I gave you guys that quiz. 338 00:23:51,703 --> 00:23:53,384 Gotta be honest, we didn't do super well at it. 339 00:23:53,384 --> 00:23:57,895 And I kind of feel like it's not an accurate representation or it shows me that I need to teach you. 340 00:23:57,895 --> 00:23:59,045 So I just threw that quiz out. 341 00:23:59,045 --> 00:24:00,146 I didn't even put it you know? 342 00:24:00,146 --> 00:24:03,086 So like things like that can inspire confidence in you. 343 00:24:03,086 --> 00:24:05,239 Like your students feel like you're aware. 344 00:24:05,239 --> 00:24:09,661 of how the grades impact them and you're not just throwing numbers at them and without caring about 345 00:24:10,238 --> 00:24:11,188 Yeah, I love that. 346 00:24:11,188 --> 00:24:16,175 Such a good point, talking with them and yeah, being willing to say, this was not an accurate reflection. 347 00:24:16,175 --> 00:24:16,775 Sometimes it is. 348 00:24:16,775 --> 00:24:19,709 Sometimes those deaf grades need to go in the grade book, but sometimes they don't. 349 00:24:19,709 --> 00:24:23,903 Sometimes it's like, yep, oops, yep, we all learned from this and we're just gonna move on. 350 00:24:23,903 --> 00:24:24,895 That's great. 351 00:24:24,895 --> 00:24:28,358 Ashley, any other final thoughts or things you wanna share before we wrap this one up? 352 00:24:28,439 --> 00:24:31,053 Nope, think that uh I learned a lot from this. 353 00:24:31,053 --> 00:24:33,787 So thank you so much for all of those ideas. 354 00:24:34,422 --> 00:24:36,582 And thank you guys so much for listening to this one. 355 00:24:36,582 --> 00:24:43,662 know this one, this is kind of one that's been in my mind for so long, but I know it's such a little bit of a niche topic, but I think, because we don't talk about it a lot, but 356 00:24:43,662 --> 00:24:48,542 I think it is so important, and I applaud all of you guys that got through to the end, and I encourage you to just keep listening on it. 357 00:24:48,542 --> 00:24:51,842 It really is a valuable thing to think about with your students. 358 00:24:51,842 --> 00:24:58,268 And if you want, whether you want to talk about this topic or another topic, if you're not in our Facebook group, we have a phenomenal Facebook group. 359 00:24:58,268 --> 00:25:00,810 of Christian educators that just go in there and talk about everything. 360 00:25:00,810 --> 00:25:05,823 So that's another place you could go in, ask for some advice, share with your questions or your thoughts. 361 00:25:05,823 --> 00:25:06,694 That'd be a great place. 362 00:25:06,694 --> 00:25:14,650 But we'd love to invite you, whether you would like to talk about this topic or any topic, you can go to teach4theheart.com / Facebook and follow the links to join our amazing 363 00:25:14,650 --> 00:25:15,367 Facebook group. 364 00:25:15,365 --> 00:25:18,757 This episode has been brought to you in partnership with the Herzog Foundation. 365 00:25:18,757 --> 00:25:22,710 All views and opinions are our own and don't necessarily reflect those of the Herzog Foundation. 366 00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:26,512 If you did enjoy this episode, we encourage you to share the podcast with a friend or colleague. 367 00:25:26,512 --> 00:25:28,393 You can also leave a review, comments. 368 00:25:28,393 --> 00:25:30,515 All those things are super helpful. 369 00:25:30,515 --> 00:25:31,655 Well, thank you for being with us. 370 00:25:31,655 --> 00:25:33,437 We look forward to speaking with you again soon. 371 00:25:33,437 --> 00:25:38,180 In the meantime, teach to remember God is at work in you and through you, and he's using you to make a difference. 372 00:25:38,180 --> 00:25:40,811 Keep your eyes on him and teach for the heart.