A decade ago, Orlando Higginbottom was riding high as totally enormous extinct dinosaurs, one of the brightest manifestations to emerge out of the UK post-dubstep, post-bass club landscape.

But a lot has happened in the decade since.

We live in a very different world now, and Orlando, now recording as the shorter TEED, has made an album of some of the most melancholic electronic sad boy pop music this side of Junior Boys.

So yes, I had to have him on the show, didn't I?

Hello.

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Okay, it's the morning of New Year's Eve.

I'm a little bit tired, been doing a lot of travelling this week, but it's so great to be here about to present this conversation to you.

Welcome to Lost in Sound.

I'm Paul Hamford.

I'm your host.

I'm an author, a broadcaster, and a lecturer.

And each week I have conversations with artists who work outside the box about music, creativity, and about how they're navigating life through their art.

So whether you're new here or you've been listening for a while, it's great to have you along.

It's great to be back as well after my prolonged sabbatical of a few months.

Um, yeah, so I'm speaking to you from Melbourne, and it's the morning of New Year's Eve.

And so we're in the the the tail end of the perennium that week between Christmas and New Year's Eve.

And I hope it's been a really, really, really good one for you.

And if you missed the show last week, where my guest was I Jordan, yes, I'm here in Melbourne, in Australia, for a few weeks with my partner.

Um, what you can hear in the background is I'm sort of uh I'm on a street in East Brunswick in Melbourne.

I've just had a morning coffee.

It is the morning of New Year's Eve.

There's some joggers about, there's some people having coffee, there's people walking their dogs.

There's sort of a slow trickle of life coming into play.

And so, yeah, the last week has been pretty amazing.

Just uh for me, uh, me and my partner travelled into the Victoria State Outback, which for a pasty northern European like myself was this is just incredible and eye-opening.

Just everything from like from the people to the landscape to the nature to the sound of birds, like waking up to hear a very, very different sound of sound of birds, like the the galumar.

Like when I was growing up, the galomar was just something Alf Stewart in in Home and Away would say.

It'd say that you flaming galomar, and now I didn't realise it was actually a bird, and it's it's just beautiful, beautiful sounding bird.

But anyway, I'm really I'm really digressing because today on the show, this is the last, obviously the last one of the year.

I spoke with Orlando Higginbottom, aka TEED.

Now, Orlando's identity as an artist and as a human has gone on a real journey since his early success as totally enormous extinct dinosaurs.

So he had this initial success at the beginning of the 2010s, really, that was very, very much peak early 2010s.

His debut album Trouble emerged during the post-dubstep UK bass explosion, and it stood out at the time for blending club music with live vocals and what I feel is his real trademark, kind of melancholy but fresh and spiky pop songwriting.

It won tons of accolades at the time, including DJ Mag's best album and best live act on us.

And for a while, Totally Enormous Extinct Dinosaurs was a thing.

It led to remixing Giants from Lady Gaga to disclosure, but success was not all it seemed, as it so often isn't.

And it was a decade before Orlando would officially follow up this album.

He was keeping busy over that time.

Production and songwriting credits, including working with people like Kelsey Lou, Mark Ronson, Boys Noise, and Banks.

And now we had this talk because he's just made album number three.

So no longer going under the name Totally Enormous Extinct Dinosaurs, now just as teed.

The new album, Always With Me, is just really gorgeous, melancholic electronic pop.

Think peak hackney era matronomy, think junior boys, new order, maybe a little bit of hot chip as well.

I'm not I'm not saying it sounds exactly like that, but you know, think if you like kind of shiny, sad boy, sophisticated bedroom pop, then if you've not heard it already, you're gonna love it.

Um really, really great to have a chat with Orlando.

Um really sort of quite frank and open conversation, really, I think.

And so yeah, you're gonna hear it in a minute.

Um, as you can probably tell in my voice, I'm pretty tired.

Done so much travelling this week, so I'm a little bit slurry and stuff, but I'm really excited to share this episode with you.

And if you haven't already, and you enjoy what you listen to, please give the show a like and a subscribe.

Give the show a rating and a review on the platform of your choice.

And yeah, so we had this chat.

This is me and Orlando Higginbottom, aka TEED, formerly totally enormous extinct dinosaurs.

And we had this chat on December 19th, 2025.

And yeah, this is what happened.

Orlando, thanks so much for joining me today.

Whereabouts are you?

I'm in LA right now, yeah.

And that's been your home for some time, hasn't it?

It has, yeah.

There was a little dip out during the old pandemic, but I've been here pretty much since 2015, I think, or 2014.

I I actually struggle with uh remembering when I got here or even figuring it out, but it's been a decade.

Right.

And do you do you feel like um what were your initial reasons for moving to LA as a Brit?

Oh, well, that's a good question.

Uh, you know, a lot of it was that I wanted to um get away from certain sort of things that I was experiencing in England, yeah, um, in the UK, and um, you know, certain sort of parts of the British attitude to success and self-expression and um, you know, a bit more like joy around the idea of living and life and career and whatever that I found here.

And also I loved this place immediately because you could sort of sink into your own world here very quickly um and uh find a lot of space for focus and music and art and like there's a there's a classic uh thing about LA that is quite alienating, it's quite isolating.

And actually that's that's not such a bad thing for a musician or an artist, really, because you're looking for somewhere that you can be super focused, um, be in your own world and in your own head.

So it suited me on a number of levels.

Yeah, I th I think a few artists I've spoken to have said the same thing about LA, actually.

That I think you know, it being a city that rarely isn't kind of connected through, you know, streets and and like subways and buses so much kind of does help that sense of being able to find your own space within that.

Yeah.

I mean it's interesting what you were saying about like wanting to escape certain British attitudes and without wanting to kind of I mean this is as much for myself as more than you, so uh to speak down on the Brits.

I know there's a lot of Brits listening.

Um I think I love I love the culture, but yeah, but there are certain attitudes, aren't there?

Like I I'm I'm I I live in Germany and I think I moved to Germany just at the sort of height of the whole Brexit thing, and yeah, the sort of insul there was a sort of insularness towards kind of, I guess sort of anything outside of Britain, I think.

Um and I was wondering from your perspective as a Brit, like are there certain things one thing I noticed about living outside of Britain is my Britishness in a way, more than I'd done before because I wasn't around it.

And I was wondering for you, like, is there anything you've noticed that that is distinctly British about yourself that you didn't know when you were living in in Britain?

Oh my goodness, yeah, well, definitely.

I think um a certain arrogance, you know, um that you think you know how the world works.

Yeah.

Especially Londoners.

And uh you you really you really don't.

You really don't.

And uh you know that hit me in a few different ways, you know, living in America, learning about civil rights here or what racism is, or you know, these things, and being like learning through the American story that I didn't understand the British story at all.

You know, the conversation here that happened over the last eighty years around civil rights is so much more advanced than the conversation that's ever happened in the UK around these things.

But you wouldn't know that speaking to anybody, you know, there's not really an awareness around that.

And that was, you know, pretty humbling to for me.

I I will say, like, not you know, not this isn't really a criticism, it's just like you don't know until you've spent time somewhere else.

And you know, on a personal level, to give you an example, I I always I feel like I have to give an example here to to explain what it was that I was trying to get away from.

Um my the beginning of you know when my career started taking off.

Um there was a sort of moment where it really exploded a bit.

Yeah.

And um I uh you know would be out with my friends that I grew up with and you know, they would come to my shows or whatever, and um someone would like stop me for a photo or to have a chat or to you know give me a hug and uh say nice to meet you, thanks for the music, whatever, you know, nice stuff.

And um my friends would be like, Well, what what's that about then?

You know, they'd be like, Why are they doing that?

Like, who do you think who do they think you are, you know?

Um and I was just like, Oh, you know, I can't I can't deal with that.

I can't deal with that as well.

Like I've got something nice happening here.

I can't, I'm not gonna like wrap it up in embarrassment and humility, yeah, just so that everyone else feels comfortable.

I've got my own issues with that.

Yeah, I would like to be somewhere where I can just accept the love, yeah, and be a bit more flowing with it and a bit more easy with it.

So that was a big sort of, you know, it's very simple, small example, but I think a p a bit uh an example of something that's really much bigger than just anything like that.

No, I I I I take an impression of that.

I think of going through that experience when when um like a decade ago, where when when Ted really took off and you know getting all of these compliments and this attention, that is like something very personal that there isn't really like a particular one way through how you feel about these things, is there?

So to try and sum it up for people that want to have an explanation when you're going, I I don't really know, I don't know what it's about, can be a bit strange, can't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And when and when my yeah, and when my community and my friends and my you know, even my family were more puzzled by it than I was.

You know, seeing me in a magazine and being like, Well, why do you look like that then?

I was like, I don't fucking know the photographer took that picture of me.

Like, just be happy, let's just be happy about this.

Like, let's get and I assure you, like a kid that grew up in California or you know, in America, the community around them would just be like, Let's go!

And you know, yeah, a lot of Americans, it can be a criticism of Americans that they that most of what their attitude things is just like let's go, and it's but it's a wonderful attitude to have, actually.

You know, yeah, I think I think definitely, I think uh being um doing anything creative, it's like I mean, this is gonna lead me on to actually like a really interesting quote that you said in the fader the other week.

But doing anything creative is that is quite weird.

You're making something up out of nothing, and like if you overanalyse it, you can end up going, well, why have why have I spent my time doing this?

No matter how good it is.

Oh, yeah, you know, it's it's a weird feeling.

So so to have that encouragement and support from people around you is is pretty, you know, it's but it can really make or break how you feel yourself about the work you do, can't it?

Absolutely.

Because there's a quote, yeah.

You I mean, again, like maybe this was a misquote, but there's a quote you said in a fader recently that there's always a tinge of self-consciousness and humiliation involved in releasing music.

It's like, really, am I doing this again?

Um, and I mean, what was that like for you this time around with with uh your new album Always With Me?

Um you know, it's interesting because I'm really proud of it.

And um I, you know, not just the product, but also the work I put into it and the time I spent making something that I'm not sure how I value it, how I'm supposed to explain the value, but I hold it to have a high value.

At the same time, I know that somebody might just see it in passing or hear a few minutes of it or a few seconds of it, and it will be meaningless or uh or bad, or you know, they'll hate it or whatever, and um it's just very exposing.

So there's a joy in that that I'm just like, let's jump off the cliff, let's go.

Like I know that through these things wonderful, important work happens.

And you don't know if it's this piece of work or the next one or the one after that or the previous one, you just don't know.

But you have to just do these things in order to find the magic bits, the really, really special bits.

It's all important, it's all magic, it's all special.

But you going through and I everybody talks about this at the moment, like going through the the embarrassment or as the younger generation have like got into now, the cringe of it.

Um that is the only way.

That is the only way.

You know, anything that you do where there's a lot of self-examination and criticism is gonna involve uh an element of that.

I think that's something that I always have to try and remember as well, and there's definitely been times I've run away from that and my work has suffered because it's like I don't know the cringe.

It's like you run through the cringe, you just don't know.

You just don't know what's going on.

You just don't know, you don't know, and you know, trusting your gut is obviously a very important skill as an adult, yeah, as an artist.

Um, but your gut can betray you sometimes, especially when it comes to embarrassment.

You know, it's there to protect you, um, but it can also stop you from trying something risky or special, or uh, you know, you also have to like power through that achy anxiety a bit.

Other times, you know, I wish I'd listened to it more.

I wish I'd been like, I knew, I knew in my body that was the wrong thing to do.

And yeah, I ignored it and carried on.

Um, yeah, no, it's interesting you're saying that.

Do you do you have like a kind of a mental health get out of that situation kit for say times where you feel it hasn't gone right?

Are there things that you know that you can kind of look at in yourself to get you through those sort of times that perhaps where you're something hasn't gone how you've wanted it to?

For sure.

I mean they're all pretty basic things, so it's all the the the standard tools of the trade.

I mean, I I exercise and I uh I love doing breath work stuff, I love breathing like as a practice, and uh I don't get around to it much, but anytime I sit down and just write you know journaling type stuff is incredibly useful.

Um yeah, all the classics of of therapy really, and um I think being really honest with yourself, taking stock of moments and doing a sort of self-audit, and then moving the hell on, you know, just being like, all right, well, onwards and yeah, but you know, I feel I feel good though.

Yeah, everything's cool.

Feeling good right now.

That's great, that's great.

Are you feeling are you getting you getting good vibes from the album release?

Because that came out uh what date are we now?

So that's it's been about two weeks now.

Yeah, yeah.

Um like uh do you feel like it's still a work that's very alive for you, or is it becoming something that feels like it's out now, it's finished, I'm not gonna be making any changes to it.

Like it's time's already moved on a little bit, perhaps from no no, I feel it it feels alive, and uh I'm actually wondering about making some changes.

Oh, right, okay, yeah.

Yeah, is that a good one?

No, it's not, but I you know, there's a couple of little moments with the mix on tracks and stuff where I'm like, okay, would I throw away these 200,000 streams to re-upload it with without the mistake that I hear?

And um I'm thinking about that.

Uh but no, it's very much alive, and I feel, you know, I'm intrigued by the the the release, and there's been lots of nice energy back from fans who are really into it.

Um it's a funny time of year to release an album, and so I'm you know interested to see you know whether it oh well it I know it's gonna live on, but you know, how it sort of reawakens next year because really there is a period now where nothing happens at all.

And yeah, you know, like once people start getting the vinyl delivered into their homes and you know.

the tracks are on their their playlists and within their algorithms.

It's alive.

And it's interesting.

And I, you know, like it's sort of like I wish it the best.

I'm like, off you go.

Like good bon voyage.

Bon voyage.

Yeah.

Kind of like put put some money in its bank account and let it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it's interesting.

It's like like you're saying it's an odd time of the year, um kind of round Christmas to release stuff.

But I don't know if people feel as engaged.

I mean maybe it's just because I don't and maybe it's because like we don't really have such a monoculture anymore.

I don't know if necessarily there's such a sort of singular kind of idea about what people listen to at Christmas time as they used to be.

You know, I feel like music can exist in its multitudes around this time of year because we find things in our own way.

You know, we're not all crowded around like the family stereo to listen to Mariah as much as we used to.

That's absolutely true.

But alongside that is just that there's so much out there.

Yeah.

And that's a very real sort of uh environment that that everybody is releasing music into now which is I think beginning to have like a really detrimental effect on the way people listen to music.

You know I even get messages from people being like congrats on the album.

I haven't got around to listening to it yet.

To be honest I find listening to music kind of tricky these days.

You know people are saying that to me like and uh I can see why like I also you know listen to music in very like bitty moments or sure there'll be times where I really sit down and dive into a record but you know we have less and less of a sort of attentive listening culture.

You're not going to talk about it like an audience.

It's a culture you know it's a it's a way that we're experiencing music.

And I would say that in fact this is a this is the podcast era, you know, because people will sit down and they'll listen to an hour podcast maybe twice a day.

You know and even from the same podcasters you know they'll have their people they listen to four times a week and they'll do that before they listen to new music.

But maybe that just also speaks to people wanting conversations about the world and the day-to-day world and stuff and understanding trying to understand make sense of all this stuff more than listening to sort of abstract you know abstract art.

Yeah.

Not sure.

I mean yeah it's an interesting question.

I mean I think with the attention thing I feel um you know there's been issues like in the in the more kind of commercial pop world about how that's sort of the structure of of of pop music um I feel like what you've done is you've made a very strong album album.

You know there's like a very uh consistent vibe you go on a journey with it.

And in this sort of age of like I guess whatever you want to call like attention issues did you feel that that's something that you you kind of questioned at all whilst making it the idea of like setting out and making something that does feel like a consistent thing that you know you you you can kind of put on different tracks um but like the whole thing does feel very much like it has its own identity and its own mood and vibe.

I guess I think that's really important and I think that's like you know admirable and I like the way other people do it.

And I also see it really working for people you know and you know I I I I know that the people who are really into what I do they appreciate that and they're listening to it as an album.

If we were gonna look at my career from a commercial point of view probably not the right decision.

Probably would be better if I you know made a bunch of just fun singles and then you know compiled them onto an album but that's not really where I sort of come from it's not really what I value and feel part of and I one of the reasons I do this is because I want to add to the big library you know and um I want to add to the culture and do my own thing within like a wide space that I admire so many other people's work.

And that that that is you know a a lot of albums that are interesting long listens with little shadowy corners and treats and good choruses and um you know peculiar lyrics and whatever it is that that makes them spiky and interesting and long living and you know open up doors for other people when they listen you know that's that's that's more important to me than a bunch of high you know really smashing big singles that do really well.

Yeah and I wonder if there's something connected with like dopamine and big singles as well like we're we're we're a dopamine culture and um um the idea of sitting back with something.

I I love the descriptions you you said though of like you know like little shadowy corners and treats inside um also I mean the other big question like the million dollar question is the name change as well like you know you established yourself as totally enormous extinct dinosaurs and there was a period where that felt like a very ubiquitous thing and to sort of change it to the the abbreviation or to teed I was wondering if you could sort of talk me through like what your motivation was that or how you feel about that name change now.

Um well I'm I'm very happy that I did it um I think it was the right thing to do um I think that like totally enormous extinct dinosaurs had a uh a place and it had a reason it had a meaning it was nonsense but a lot of people didn't really understand that in fact most people didn't understand that and really it became just a barrier to entry to my music I think in the 2010s there was a culture of kind of like wackiness and irony there isn't anymore and I'm not sure when there will be again seems to be moving very far in the other direction.

So would I if I was starting a project now choose a sort of Dadaist name like no I wouldn't I would go for something that was like sort of the simplest brand you could possibly have and then you know make the art interesting within it.

So it didn't really serve me anymore and also I felt it didn't really serve the time that we're in.

I I only wish more people knew how funny it was you know like I I do wish people had got it and they they didn't really get it.

Like you know that kid's meme that everyone's trying to understand the six seven thing?

Yeah yeah which I don't really understand myself.

Yeah well it's that and you know Duchamp's urinal yes yeah it's that right okay yeah it's bullshit and um you know in a world of like people giving themselves artist names as if they're superheroes on a Marvel poster you know I've always found that funny I've always found it funny that the the the band name the artist name it's so childish um it's so infantilizing.

Um I think like in the 70s and 80s it made sense but since then it hasn't really yeah made any sense.

So um I you know I'm I I'm glad that I had fun with a a prod at the culture but it wasn't really you know I don't think people appreciated what I was doing there.

And anyway it doesn't matter I'm just saying I don't think I don't think people got it.

And and you know after a long time when people don't get what you're doing you're just like all right well I'll I'll change that.

Um because you don't need to carry around that sort of misunderstanding for too long.

I I I mean I guess when people don't understand something they do end up giving it a meaning anyway.

And so it's like like you mentioned like Duchamp, you know, it's sort of it might have been whatever it meant it becomes like its own sort of form of like attached yeah icon.

And I guess did you feel that that like the kind of maybe the joke or the sort of the irony of totally enormous extinct dinosaurs had become something that rather than being ironic had just become like its own sort of superhero when it wasn't meant to be yeah yeah basically yeah and yeah yeah and and do you feel like with as teed now like you feel like is there like a sense of sort of freedom from that but now it yeah it is just a name you know it's it's something you kind of just appreciate the music now.

Yeah now it's even more meaningless in a way but um it's not a it's not a barrier to entry I don't think for people you know which and and look there's one other thing I'll say about it I feel bad because when you say totally enormous extinct dinosaurs it is a unpleasant physical experience in your mouth and you know I've you know I've I've uh asked a lot of my listeners over the years and for them to be like oh you got to listen to the new totally enormous and they get halfway through it and I know that they don't feel cool when they're saying it so I know I don't want to give people that bad experience anymore.

So I I think it's just nicer to just be like that.

And you know a lot of a lot of radio DJs would only ever say teed yeah Annie Mac on Radio One she only she never said totally enormous extinct dinosaurs she only said teed and she was ahead of the curve there.

Did you ever hear any other abbreviations like we ever called like the dinosaurs or the the the totally extincts or something no no nobody went for anything other than teed right that's good that's good to know yeah yeah and and with always with me as well like what what what was there like a sort of distinct vibe that you were trying to reach I mean for me listening to it I mean I've always been a sucker for the sort of the sort of sweet spot between like kind of bright electronic production and melancholy you know for me it's something I can trace back to like new you must love it then.

You must love it.

And I fucking love it.

I fucking love it.

You know a particular you know like or even like sort of like peak peak Hoxtonier uh metronomy or something like that.

You know it's it's it's got that sort of the sadness but with the upbeatness and I was wondering for you like is there like a sweet spot like when you're making music where you go yeah this is this is this is the zone that I'm happiest in making maybe I mean I I I've never described it like that to myself but there are definitely moments on this album that really like hit that for me um and uh the sort of definitive cornerstones of the record like um there's a song called My Melody that has like a synth solo synth melody before the vocals and after each chorus and that bit of instrumental music is sort of you know this is hyperbole but like exactly what I'm trying to do kind of thing.

You know that I got that right and uh certainly with that like sort of emotion of the slightly melancholy thing I I've that's always just sort of unfortunately in a way been what's naturally come out because I'm trying always to write something like with a bit more attitude and maybe a bit more sexy and it's just quite difficult really it doesn't come very easily to me or perhaps I do it and then I hear it and I'm like no no no that's not right.

Um but yeah that seems to be a kind of sweet spot for me without trying too much um it's a funny it's a funny emotion emotional palette but I know I know what you're talking about of course yeah yeah um I just wanted to ask you some questions about like where it all began for you as well so like I mean do you have like where whereabouts did you grow up?

I grew up in Oxford.

Did you have like a sort of very early musical like epiphany or something when you were like you realized that maybe as a young person like you realized you had like a sort of a deep connect I mean we've all got a deep connection with music but did you have like one yourself where you thought ah that really resonates with me big time.

Um my dad is a classical musician and was a professor of music at the university in Oxford so I was in a house that had three pianos in it and you know records and CDs and the radio was always on and um my first experiences were you know figuring out how to put CDs on and I there was Holst the Plan Holst's The Planets and uh Gershwin Rhapsody and Blue and Rossini Overtures to Rossini operas and those were my three favorite CDs when I was like four and uh I would hammer those you know I would I would I would put them on and then just like zone you know just zone into the music and maybe I'd act out some fancy in my head or maybe I'd just sit and listen or maybe I'd um play the tambourine or something along.

And I was like a classical music kid like heavily and with lots of big brothers and sisters who I used to steal all their CDs and try and find other stuff that I was into.

I was obsessed with trying to you know find chords or bits of music that made me feel the way I wanted to feel and the sort of turning point you know I thought I was going to be a composer when I was a kid when I you know before I was 10.

And then the turning point was when I started to hear jungle and and rave music and jungle really switched on my brain to electronic music.

I thought that everything that was housey in techno when I was a kid was lame because it was too simple.

I didn't understand you know but when I heard the complicated drums in jungle and the sort of dreamy pads and this like impressive physical bass I was like let's go this is exactly what I've been waiting for and you know was just fell in love with it and started buying records when I was 13, got put at my first turntable when I was 14 and you know started DJing and making music on the computers at schools making music with friends I've always been in you know deep was deep into music but uh it's definitely changed you know the relationship changes once it becomes your career.

Yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean um when you say it changes do you mean like in a good way or a bad way or is is there like a particular sort of example you can think of about how that's changed for you.

Yeah I think like the thing that was the thing that is incredible about it is the feeling of wonder.

Yeah and the shine comes off a bit when you're up against the coal face.

Yeah um and so it's rare more and more rare that I hear something that gives me that feeling of wonder.

And um you know what an important feeling in life like to to to to feel the majesty and mystery of it all.

And you know now I get that sometimes in clubs you know sometimes but more often I'll go and see an orchestra and listen to a piece that I know really well and and I'll feel it then um but you know more and more rarely from new music or or or or even older music I I I I feel differently about now.

Yeah yeah so you did you did have a classical training?

So yeah absolutely yeah I was a yeah I was a choir boy I played the piano I played the flute um did lots of recordings when I was a kid did lots of touring I was really heavy into it I went to the junior academy of music in London and did composition on Saturday mornings and um but actually a lot of the time I just ran off to Soho and went record shopping and smoked cigarettes when I was supposed to be doing that.

Which again is very very important uh educational life forming isn't it really absolutely I got to go to those record stores yeah and did you feel like you had to do any unlearning when you started to make your own electronic music um going from classical trip no okay so it was a nothing team the more you know the better.

Right okay yeah and but within on that journey there are moments where the learning that you have to do is just learning that you've put yourself in a trap.

Maybe you've put yourself in a technical trap where you're like well I think that this chord comes after this chord and then you learn it doesn't need to go like that actually.

But no I'm absolutely of the opinion that like study your craft in every way that you can and um and and that will improve it and take you on an interesting ride.

There's one caveat to that which is that naivety is incredibly powerful creatively.

But you only get to experience that once really so you know and people that's often when a lot of the best work happens is when people don't really know what they're doing.

But after that that's it you've lost you've blown that chance so um now you're in and you need to know as much as possible and yeah.

Yeah I think for some I think there's a natural tendency that we have sometimes I know I have an I'm not classically trained but when I speak with people that are that of that of making music that has is kind of maybe stemmed from a kind of a classical background but has got into its own thing that a lot of people feel that like the more you learn also comes with it like a dogmatism.

And so sort of like you know there's the knowledge comes with association and breaking free from that to sort of take take the knowledge but apply it how you want to apply it.

And that seems to be from what you're saying something that you know you feel quite unaffected by or rather that there are these points of like sweet spot where you hit that naive moment where perhaps the knowledge that you've got in you manifests in a fresh way for a moment.

Yeah.

Um I think when I was a teenager, I I wasn't judgmental about the different corners of music.

You know, like there wasn't I somehow r you know I would listen to Rat Mananoff's third piano concerto while I was going to bed.

Or I would listen to Kruderendorfmeister KD sessions.

Or I'd listen to like a Ray Keith uh mixtape, you know, and I w I never thought to myself this one's better.

This one is m has more value.

And I could see why I might have but I didn't and I feel like I just sort of sidestepped a thing there.

Like I'm of course there are parts of me that are snobby.

There's parts of all of us that are snobby.

It's you can't help it but I'll I'll I'll die on the hill of drum and bass.

Like I I I think that's an incredible musical movement and cultural moment and like I love it.

I will also like shout at somebody about the way that someone new is playing Bach and um you know you know like I just care about these things equally.

Yeah.

And I think that probably you know the other thing to say about it is I think because I grew up with this ancient music as it were and you know I had a big book of composers when I was a kid and I you know I saw that you know one every 50 years got remembered you know so I've always known that and what we're doing now you know maybe a couple of us within music will be remembered in a hundred years time two hundred years time you know so there's a good bit of perspective that came with that um that I find very helpful.

Is it and I I wonder those the people that will be remembered they might not be the ones that we think are going to be remembered.

Yeah totally it might just be like 100 years time everyone just remembers Natalie and Brullier and you know it could be the truth.

That could be no but that's exactly what it could be.

Like you know we we we we don't know and there are plenty of uh examples and I'm not going to get them wrong here on this chat of composers who were not the guys during their lifetime.

Yeah yeah you know and then uh you know 50 years later they suddenly or 100 you already just in the 20th century they become very popular.

So yeah you know it's just perspective like uh absolutely and it's the outside circumstances that sometimes make something relevant to other people you know it's it's the sort of way we connect with it um that but that the composer can never really be in control of and I mean I guess what is even the point is more about making making stuff that you feel that you connect with that you can speak through yourself isn't it yeah yeah doing exactly and um like I said earlier sort of contributing to the the general work that we're doing yeah we're this is a group effort totally totally you that's your piece of the brick that goes in the wall there that helps the wall stand up yeah that is that is how I feel about this thing.

Yeah it's and I wish more people did I feel like there's a there's a real um sort of disease of individualism here where it's I must become the heroic uh you know master artist it's like no that no one can plan that you know we just do our bit just do our bit and and make it beautiful and we'll see what happens like you know I I 100% agree with you on that and that's a really nice perspective to have I think I mean I mean because I mean I guess like you know when when trouble came out there was that sort of peak moment where you were thrust into this um I don't I know that's perhaps like a sort of slightly dramatic term to say thrust into but like there was a lot of attention there was like a lot of success there was a lot of this sort of hype around what you were doing that in the years following you didn't do the kind of what would be the most sort of conventionally uh like career appeasing to like an a like a label or anything like that kind of routine.

I was wondering just like sort of immediately around about the time of trouble what was what was sort of going through I wanted to kind of sort of talk you know if you could talk through what was going through like the success to sort of perhaps the feeling of not wanting to do perhaps the most obvious thing afterwards yeah um good question um I I wish that had gone differently that's for sure right um I would say with the blessings of hindsight that I I didn't really understand what was going on.

Yeah um and I also felt at the time that things were a little bit out of my control I certainly didn't feel that it was a success.

I felt that it was maybe a bit of a failure because um the targets that were being put in front of me were targets that were being put in front of me by Universal Records.

And you know and that was like we've got to have a tune on Radio one on the A list.

We've got to if we don't it doesn't count you know kind of thing and so however many big festival stages I played and you know tickets I sold and you it it didn't matter because um there was this one goal and in that sense I felt that I hadn't achieved it and I didn't have the people around me to sort of say well yep we didn't do that but actually doesn't matter because you're on the map and people are listening and they're interested in the and the and there's goodwill like I I didn't understand this thing about goodwill.

I really didn't I thought that people were coming to my shows to uncover me as a fake you know I would look out at Shepherd's Bush Empire and I'd sell it out and I was like you're all here by mistake you've seen the show already and you're coming to check that it's shit.

You know like I had a real um I just couldn't accept that like people were there because they loved it and I didn't know how to enjoy that.

And now you know I'm like it's really the opposite if I meet a fan and they tell me they love the music I'll I'm so grateful.

And I'm like that you know that's amazing for me.

Um and I believe them.

Yeah but and if people buy tickets to my shows I believe them but I didn't then and so the whole thing I think really sort of like left me pretty dizzy.

Uh obviously it would anyway even if I knew how well it was going because I was running around the world and I was partying a lot and um you know it was this like success moment whether I understood it or not.

Yeah.

Um but there was still this pressure of kind of like we need to get a song on radio one.

And uh I wanted to get as far away from that as possible.

I felt very unsupported I felt crazy and alone and it sort of led me into I went into sort of no man's land for a bit really yeah and uh you know that's a it's a long that's a long story but it it it took me a while to find people that I trusted to work with.

It took me a while to find ways of releasing music that I felt comfortable with um what I should have done is cleared the diary completely and just gone and made another album and had a as much fun as possible doing it um and put it out.

You know but but instead I went and sort of overthought everything and then and then I and then I ended up in quite a bad place quite a dark place of it all.

Yeah.

But you know like I think a lot of artists go through especially solo artists go through this thing.

I think so I mean um thank you for sharing that and I realise you're compressing a lot into you know like a into a few minutes there you know and uh it's not it's not to sort of belittle like all of the nuances and and and months and years of that period.

I feel that yeah that the no one really prepares people for the variations of that happen when when popularity happens when when the tension's on you and it can you know you've mentioned a couple of things firstly I I think it was the thing about moving to LA you know and that that reminded me of when you were sort of saying when you were playing gigs uh around the time of trouble and you were expecting people to think you know who's that wanker on the stage kind of thing is that that you know that sort of confidence thing um and then also just the sort of I guess the idea of just like being able to make music for yourself really to put to be that brick in the wall rather than to sort of be the wall itself or like some some guy in a cape standing on top of the wall you know and um what do you feel like helped you f emerge out of that um some sort of violent moments in my life really some like real like shake it well you gotta shake this thing up or it's gonna go horribly wrong and the thing that like um quite literally broke the seal was on uh on my birthday on in 2018 I put a piece of music up on SoundCloud um and uh you know against all the rules really like you know I I had I I pulled the sling very far back for a for a second album hadn't released any music for ages it should have been a really big moment announcement I could have done it with press and everything but nothing was happening for me you know I just couldn't make it happen so I I just put a song up on SoundCloud said hi this is a birthday present to myself here's leave a light on enjoy and uh went out and got very very drunk and came home twelve hours later and looked at the SoundCloud and I was like oh fuck I'm back and um you know burst into tears and the the the worst thing you can do as a musician is to stop making music like and stop putting it out like putting it out put it out like it doesn't count if you make it at home and don't put it out it doesn't count.

And uh that really like kickstarted the sort of second round of things which is well you know I I feel like I'm in season three now but um that that got things rolling again.

And it's you know it was bumpy.

Yeah it was a bumpy ride.

But uh I'm beginning to get to a point where I look back at the catalogue and I'm like cool you know that's an interesting you know that's an interesting body of work.

I would love to add to it.

You know that's how I'm feeling at the moment and um certainly some satisfaction is is coming now you know from seeing that I've you know there's there's the there's a thing there.

Yeah yeah you mean when you sort you pointed with your just for like listeners you pointed with your you sort of gesticulated with your hands upright there's a thing.

So there's like a you sort of mean like an overall arching like yeah there's a catalogue there's a there's a story there's there's phases and um different things sound different but there's a through line in in certain ways many through lines and I I think there's I think it's I think I have an interesting body of work now.

Definitely I say that and by the way I'm saying that again for the listeners I'm surprised to hear myself say that.

You know that's what the kind of person I am um so here we are a little sort of strange humility pride mix but yeah.

I mean in a way that is its own form of success story the the the owning of your own work as something that you feel as as part of your life that you you accept as part of your life.

Yeah you know up like when I'm sure you speak to lots of musicians who are in their 40s and 50s and like it's a very different thing.

You know you you're I'm just about to turn 40 and um now part of the success is that we're still standing yeah yeah that's what we're proud of we're like no I'm still here um and that feels actually that's one of the coolest feelings I have is you know and especially the conversations I have with my colleagues a lot of the time people are like how the hell am I going to do this?

How are we doing this?

This is an impossible game you know this year's been the hardest year ever and so when we do keep it moving it's really like a triumph.

Yeah and I loved what you said about like it it doesn't really exist until you put it out and I think that's really good advice to uh to tell anyone I think partly because it's sort of it's like a confidence thing but I mean that's how I see it as being you know we can sit on things and and they sort of they kind of I don't know they they they can kind of like disappear into time um they can become like these sort of moments of regret like the old kind of cliched saying about regret is the things that you didn't do and stuff.

But I I was wondering just generally to sort of wrap up like what would you I think more and more people are like have got able to have got something on the computer are making music um it's harder and harder to sort of see through you know kind of like to sort of make your mark or or even like find a sort of like identity.

I was wondering what kind of advice you would give to someone that is the age that you're at when you were just starting to find your fee well I think it's harder than it was when I was yeah when I got started I really do um but so you know my advice is uh should be taken with a pinch of salt finding your identity is the most important thing I think having said that like you might be more successful faster by making something that just sounds like something that's already out there and is popular.

So that's a decision you need to make or a battle that you're going to be experiencing.

It's endless compromises this thing creatively but find ways to put music out send it to your friends whatever you do send it to your friends and just they don't even have to say anything but just experience what it's like to share music and how does it make you feel when you sit down in the studio or in your bedroom or in your living room and you play your friend your new track um they might not have to say anything.

You'll know what needs to change and are you making music that you want other people to like that's a good question.

Or do you just want to make stuff that is your total vision of music or is it just a creative what would be the word discipline practice.

Is that what it is you know um there's a huge ambient scene out there and I I love listening to ambient music and I love going on band camp and finding these artists and my suspicion is that that a lot of them make this music as a form of uh sort of self-therapy you know I certainly when I make ambient music make it in that way um uh so maybe you're making music for that reason in which case great carry on you know but ask yourself these big questions and make some rules make some guidelines and go for it you know shake it up the one thing I would say don't do is play the troll game on social media don't get into that like I feel like we've been in this awful phase of doing anything for attention and you know you you might do it once and feel like the man or whatever but I think keep it nice keep it friendly if you do end up in this industry the people that you meet now I promise you they're still gonna be around in 20 years time.

So you know be professional and kind and and and and friendly and because I think there's a lot of people who feel like they just have to make an impact on TikTok or make an impact on Instagram and the way to do that these days is to be outrageous.

Yeah um so there's a there's a trap there you've got to be careful about totally totally and that's so quick that's so quick it's like she wouldn't jump into the quicksand or be a brick in the wall yeah yeah um Orlando thank you so much for sharing that with me thank you thank you okay so that was me Paul Hamford talking with Orlando Higginbottom aka teed we had that conversation on the 19th of December 2025 thank you so much Orlando for sharing your time and thoughts with me there always with me is out now on Orlando's own nice age label and if you like the show and you haven't already please give Lust and Sound a rating and a review on the platform of your choice.

It really really really really really does help and if you fancy giving me an extra special little New Year's Eve gift that is the way to do it.

So yeah as you know I had like a little bit of a prolonged sabbatical and that was to make a BBC radio free documentary of my partner Rosalie Delaney now that documentary was aired all around the world um on Sunday the 28th of December 2025 it's called the German Bob Dylan excelled by the GDM.

Now if you're in the UK you're very lucky uh if you missed it and you want to hear it because you can access the playback on the BBC Sounds app at any time.

If you're outside of the UK it's unfortunately you're not able to do that at the moment you used to be able to do that you're currently not able to do that BBC Sounds is geoblocked currently in terms of like radio free.

This is something we're very aware of and we're trying to work out at the moment so if you're if you're after a listen and you you're not able to do that because you're outside of the UK please bear with us we're we're trying what we can see what we can do.

Okay so um my book Coming to Berlin is still available in Orchid bookshops or Volley Publishers website Velocity Press and Lost and Sound is sponsored by Audio Technica the global but still family run company that make headphones, turntables, cartridges, microphones, studio quality yet affordable products because they believe that high quality audio should be accessible To all.

So wherever you are in the world, head on over to audiotechnica.com to check out all of their range of stuff.

The music that you hear at the beginning, at the end of every episode of Lost and Sound, is by Tom Giddens.

And so that's it.

I wish you a beautiful new year.

Um, you may be listening before 2026.

You may be listening once we're in 2026.

I am just on the cusp of the day.

I'm gonna get another coffee.

Speak to you soon.