Bill: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector.

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Now, on to the show.

Bill: This week on the show, we are going to be discussing one of the greatest depictions Bill: of revolution ever put to film, the Battle of Algiers.

Bill: It was released in 1966, written and co-directed by Guillaume Panticorvo.

Bill: It was filmed on location in Algeria and was received to glowing reviews, Bill: winning the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival.

Bill: It was initially banned in France, for obvious reasons.

Bill: The film only features several actors, primarily Jean-Martin as Colonel Philippe Matteau.

Bill: It remains one of the most important films depicting the struggles against colonialism.

Bill: With us to discuss the film tonight is my friend, Aaron, a very good close friend Bill: of mine, real life, the real meat space.

Aaron is a political organizer.

Bill: He's a fan of the show of his own admission.

He's excited to be here.

Bill: He watched this film in high school.

It helped radicalize him, Bill: especially from his family.

Bill: When his father taught him about decolonization movements from a young age, Bill: taught him about leaders such as Nkrumah, Suku Ture, Maria Cabral, and Lumumba.

Bill: As well as the Algerian War of Independence and the FLN.

Aaron, Bill: welcome to The Left to Projector.

Aaron: Hello, thank you for having me.

I'm really excited to be on, I'm not going to lie.

Ward: Happy to have you.

Aaron: Thanks.

Evan: Welcome.

Aaron: So, especially when I talk about this film, Aaron: I always have to bring up the historical context because Aaron: what we see in the Battle of Algiers Aaron: is approximately four years of Aaron: 130 long year colonial occupation by france and algeria and i'm going to point Aaron: out two different like sort of events comparable events to give scale as to Aaron: how long and how close after the independence of algeria this movie was made so, Aaron: For how long the colonization, French occupation of Algeria was, Aaron: we can look at the U.S.

and Hawaii.

Aaron: And actually, it's scary how close it lines up because France was in Algeria Aaron: from 1830 to 1962 and about 132 years.

Aaron: And so the Queen of Hawaii was ousted in a coup backed by the United States Aaron: in 1893 and the islands were annexed in 1898.

Aaron: So do you want to know what year Aaron: 132 years is from 1893 that's 2025 that would have been this year yeah.

Bill: That really yeah.

Aaron: And then that.

Bill: Really puts in perspective.

Aaron: If it was eight if you're looking at 1898 it would have been 2040 so imagine Aaron: if you will and this is how the french viewed algeria they didn't see it like Aaron: a colony they saw it as a state like they call it a department similar to how Aaron: the United States views Hawaii.

Aaron: So imagine indigenous Hawaiian people starting an armed struggle and basically Aaron: bombing resorts and, uh, uh, you know, attacking the military bases in Hawaii.

Bill: We can only wish, we could only be so lucky.

We could only ask for such a thing.

Aaron: And then by 2040 or so, cause 2025 has already passed.

Aaron: They, they liberate Hawaii and then, you Aaron: know four years later a film is made about you Aaron: know the final final days and to give Aaron: an even more like prescient example um we look at october 7th right and how Aaron: close this film was to the actual battle of algiers you know from uh 56 to 60 Aaron: to the uh early 60s you know, Aaron: If you're going off of 2023, right, the difference in time would be, Aaron: this would be like if a movie was directed, Aaron: from the perspective of the Palestinian Liberation Forces about October 7th and released in 2032.

Aaron: That's how close it would be.

Aaron: And that gives you kind of an idea of how just controversial and like, Aaron: absolutely upended the political landscape in Aaron: the 60s and you had the vietnam and i have honestly Aaron: so much to talk about this film like for example Aaron: in 2003 uh the u.s state the u.s pentagon actually screened this film to study Aaron: it before the invasion of iraq because they felt it was one of the best depictions Aaron: of both insurgency and counterinsurgency it's been studied by the ira in ireland plo.

Bill: That's an interesting point because we see you know Bill: as as using as an example of counterinsurgency considering Bill: the fact that you know they very point you know pointly says Bill: at one point like oh and we will see victor despite Bill: the fact that uh the colonel himself points Bill: out that the in indochina they did Bill: the same tactics and they lost there and then Bill: what do we see in this it's like yeah they they quote unquote Bill: win and like four years later it's algerian Bill: independence but i i want to i Bill: want to rewind just a little bit and do what we always do Bill: which is talk about our everybody's experience Bill: or their history with the start you know Bill: and since aaron you have the most to talk about in terms of like your history Bill: with the film i'm going to leave you for last because i know you have to have Bill: a lot to say about that so evan ward uh either of you want to give us your history Bill: your personal history with the Bill: film you know how when you first saw it you know what we always do here.

Ward: I'll go first so i've seen Ward: this movie probably like a handful of times um a couple times before i was really Ward: political and i was like oh sick ass war movie you know didn't really think Ward: too much about it just pretty sick war movie and then now being political it's Ward: like god this movie is fucking great really really accurate depictions and just Ward: what the struggle actually entails, Ward: And I love it.

And now it's to the point where I try to watch it at least once Ward: a year, but that's still pretty, pretty relevantly new thing to me.

Evan: Yeah, for me, I've seen this maybe, I want to say like four, Evan: four or five times, you know, maybe a handful, as you said, Ward.

Evan: I think the first time I saw it was near the time that I started.

Evan: My political ideology was drastically changing.

Evan: I was watching a lot of Soviet films and films that weren't just kind of your typical American fare.

Evan: And i just remember being struck every time Evan: i watched this there's no portion of the Evan: film that's more i don't know Evan: uh just i'm just i feel like i'm like Evan: sweating and my blood pressure is rising when they're when the three women Evan: are planting the various bombs in the different locations my Evan: like i feel like my heart my like my my blood Evan: pressure is rising as probably theirs were in doing this in real life like during Evan: the real struggle and I just think that it's such an important film that anytime Evan: I watch it I then tell everyone else who hasn't seen it that they should watch Evan: it regardless of your political perspective but definitely if you're on the left and it's, Evan: I don't own it on, uh, on, uh, I do collect, you know, some physical media and Evan: this is what I don't have the criteria collection, a copy of, Evan: but I need to change that soon.

Bill: So this is actually, this was my first time watching it.

Ward: Oh, Bill.

Bill: Listen, this has more to do with the fact that, you know, I don't, Bill: I don't sit down and watch.

Bill: There's certain things I just, I just don't like, you know, get around.

Bill: I, I mean, I have read about this, uh, which is relevant to this in a lot of Bill: ways.

But yeah, this was actually my first time watching it.

Bill: And one of the things that really struck me was the manner in which this contrasts Bill: with war or like movies depicting conflict from an imperialist perspective made Bill: by imperialist media or Western meat.

Bill: What this was in which that the, it was the way the victims of violence throughout Bill: this film were humanized by both sides at the direction of, you know, Bill: people who were making this film at the behest of and in celebration of Algerian independence.

Bill: And yet they still humanized the victims of violence, Bill: the French victims of violence in a way that you don't see in Western media Bill: when they show movies of Western, you know, military, you know, Bill: bombing countries and, you know, murdering innocents or civilians.

Bill: And they never once even like give them any credence or any, Bill: they pay no attention to them.

They just move on.

Bill: Um, and it really struck, you know, it really stood out to me that in terms of like just the, uh.

Bill: Almost like the ideology but the core philosophy Bill: of like humanization and how starkly Bill: that stands in in contrast to the western ideology of just dehumanization of Bill: anybody that isn't from the imperial core um but um now i know i touched on Bill: it very like lightly in your introduction but you know aaron your history with Bill: this movie and what it's meant to you i.

Aaron: First watched this when I was in high school.

And this, Aaron: I mean, my family had always talked about decolonization, but it never really Aaron: registered in the same way before this film is after, because like everybody has said, it feels real.

Aaron: It is very real.

And it, it does not glorify violence, which I think is really important.

Aaron: Neither the deaths of the Algerians nor the French, like Aaron: you see the french stumbling and you see uh the Aaron: paint and i want to highlight something especially important especially talking Aaron: about the bombings uh depicted in the film um many of the cast were fln members Aaron: during the algerian war of independence like these are not people divorced from what happened, Aaron: and you know the actually the the the actor who plays jafar um yes of saadi Aaron: he was one of the political his character is basically what he did during the Aaron: battle it is based on his memoirs and so he knew Ali Lopuant he knew, Aaron: according to.

Aaron: Algerian newspapers I saw apparently his nephew was Petit Omar you know this is not, Aaron: this is very real to them.

And especially with Ponte Corvo, Aaron: as Bill will say, Ponte Corvo is one of my favorite directors because he absolutely Aaron: hates using professional actors.

Aaron: He'd much rather take people from the communities that he's depicting, right?

Aaron: And you see this in the battle of algiers where the only formerly trained Aaron: actor is jean martin as the Aaron: colonel who's actually his character that wasn't Aaron: a real person it's just an amalgamation of different french leaders Aaron: but the the actor who plays ali Aaron: la pointe uh brahim hadiji hadaji Aaron: he is you know that Aaron: was his first acting role pretty much and he Aaron: didn't really become an actor afterwards like he Aaron: did a few films afterwards but he didn't Aaron: make it his career and ponte corvo does Aaron: this in all his films especially one i've i hope y'all will do on the left of Aaron: the projector kimada which means burn which has marlon brando in it by the way Aaron: and he basically got indigenous people from columbia people who are living there Aaron: and was like yeah this is a movie about a slave revolt on a you know.

Aaron: 16th of 17th century island in the caribbean and we want people from the caribbean here and it's.

Bill: It's a really it's a really interesting thing because you Bill: know we we laud i mean we just had the critics choice awards and like you know Bill: people were given awards for acting it's like we laud actors and yet these people Bill: are not actors but as like evan you know like you said like watching that bombing Bill: scene like that's intense acting like they brought that to life in a way, Bill: And it's just like, you know, we, we, Bill: We hold actors up to such, you know, in the West, like we hold them up to such Bill: like high esteem and throughout history, you know, and, and yet these are not, Bill: they're not trained actors and yet they brought it to life in a way that you Bill: would think that they were, you know, Bill: actors that have been spent, you know, decades on screen bringing characters to life.

Bill: And, and it's, you know, it's more likely because they were still, Bill: you know, because to them, this is real, you know, or was real.

Evan: They're almost reenacting something as opposed to acting.

Bill: Yeah.

Ward: I mean, they, these aren't trained actors giving such a real performance that Ward: there are certain American releases of this movie that had to like have a disclaimer Ward: saying that like no portion of this film is newsreel because American audiences couldn't understand.

Aaron: And especially to like all the extras are actual Algerian people from Algiers, Aaron: like, and they did an interview with Pontecorvo and he said he wanted to create the chorus of the Cosmo, Aaron: right?

He wanted it to feel real.

Aaron: And you hear it with the, with the, the, especially like one of the most horrific Aaron: parts of the film, in my opinion, is when the French, uh, police commander, it's, it's, it's funny.

Aaron: Cause he's not even given a name, at least not to my knowledge in my rewatchings.

Aaron: He goes into, I don't think so.

He goes into the.

Bill: Oh no, he very briefly, he's referenced like, not that it's, Bill: this doesn't even, but he is referenced by his name.

Bill: Like when they leave that like party, which I think is important, Bill: which is an important point.

Bill: Like that man, he is literally at like a party.

Bill: Like, and then they're just like, Oh, I'm going to leave this party where I'm Bill: like, just like living my life.

and that's like how divorced these people are from like, Bill: their humanity in a lot of ways.

Like he's at a party and he's just like living Bill: his life and he's like, oh, we have to go bomb somebody.

Bill: Like just casually, just like, just leaves a party where they're drinking and Bill: hanging out with kids and just playing cards and shit.

Aaron: Especially the, the noise.

And it's, it's constantly referenced the chorus of the caspa.

Aaron: It's called ululation.

You know, Aaron: the, the noise the community makes is a symbol of the community pain.

Aaron: And I remember the very first time I watched it, because I had some familiarity Aaron: with the subject matter, people were like, why are they doing this at the end of the film?

Aaron: They've only done it during periods of pain, like when it talks about the independence of Algeria.

Aaron: And it's sort of like happy that they've won, and it goes to the point of what cost.

Aaron: And that's like a constant point in the film.

Aaron: And I, one of my favorite things that I noticed on this rewatch is that Petit Omar's, um, Aaron: first lines in the film when he makes contact with Ali LaPointe is men have Aaron: two faces, one smiles and one cry, the other cries, which is revolution in a nutshell.

Aaron: You know, one smiles at the thinking what we, what can, where we can go, Aaron: what heights we can achieve.

Aaron: But one face cry is seeing what's lost, all the death, the destruction, Aaron: the pain inflicted by the occupation onto the people living there.

Aaron: And I also would like to say, you know, this is something that I thought about Aaron: and I never really thought about before, too, in the movie, the use of the guillotine Aaron: at the beginning, right?

In the West, it's a symbol of liberation.

Aaron: But, you know, and especially as I did research on this, in a lot of parts of Aaron: Africa, and especially in the Pacific, Aaron: in the French colonies in the Pacific, it's seen as a symbol of brutal occupation Aaron: and almost the exact opposite of what we think of it here.

Bill: We should probably stop celebrating the guillotine in general, Bill: especially if you're a leftist and you understand that the French Revolution Bill: was not a true revolution.

It certainly wasn't a leftist revolution, Bill: and it was a bourgeois revolution.

Bill: Yeah, agreed.

It really does change the way it is thought about or what way Bill: should be thought about or seen.

Aaron: I mean, I could just keep going on stuff.

I, we could talk about the, um, Aaron: in the film itself, how Ali LaPointe, and I think I saw some of the show notes, Aaron: you know, he's not some military, like he's not some politically educated guy.

Aaron: He is the Algerian equivalent of Joe Everyman.

He's been in and out of prisons.

Ward: Not even educated.

Evan: Yeah, can't read.

Ward: He's illiterate.

Aaron: Well, no, that's the thing.

And I looked this up for the recording.

Aaron: At the time of the occupation, roughly 10% of indigenous Algerians were literate.

Aaron: So he is literally Joe Everyman.

Like most of the men could not read.

Aaron: The people could not read.

Bill: Do we, this is never covered in the movie.

Bill: But like, how did he become involved with the FLN?

like what led him to that Bill: entirely like do we know do we have that information.

Aaron: It's it's subtext it's they it Aaron: Jafar kind of alludes to it he's Aaron: like oh lots of Algerians come to us in the prisons because Aaron: a lot of FLN are in prisons and it's the same like bringing Aaron: it full circle to Palestine like it's the same you Aaron: know a lot of these revolutionary people are Aaron: imprisoned and they make contact with people in Aaron: the prison system and it's like well we got to Aaron: prove that you know and he says this in Aaron: the sense of like well we got to make sure you're not that works but yeah um Aaron: and i love how the film shows that you know we'll he's like why didn't you have Aaron: me go after the shop owner or anything else and he's like because the french Aaron: would never risk another frenchman They would risk an Algerian person, Aaron: but they would never allow like a French officer to come under risk.

Aaron: And it's important to note too that, you know, LaPointe is told by, Aaron: you know, Petit Omar to just casually like assassinate him.

Aaron: He doesn't do that.

He makes a big spectacle of it.

He unleashes his rage.

Evan: He wants to look him in the eye, too, I think, is part of it, Evan: right?

He was supposed to shoot him in the back, but he wants to shoot him from the front.

Aaron: And not just that, too.

He beats the man when it's a blank.

He's like, Aaron: oh, I don't have bullets.

Bill: Yeah, when he can't.

Aaron: Yeah.

Oh, let's go.

Bill: Not even blanks.

It's not even blanks.

Ward: It's just empty.

Bill: Oh, yeah.

Aaron: It's got nothing in there.

Bill: Just click.

Ward: This thing's empty.

Bill: It's got nothing in there.

Ward: It's still got some weight to it.

Let me smack you with it.

Bill: Yeah.

Aaron: Yeah, and.

Bill: For those who have not seen the movie, just to like totally clarify, Bill: what happens is that LaPointe is given the task to assassinate a French police Bill: officer after making contact with a rat, Bill: an Algerian rat, like a coffee shop owner, who is giving information on the FLA and resistance.

Bill: He is given the task to prove himself to the FLN.

He is given the test to assassinate this officer.

Bill: So for those who have not seen, that's exactly what we're discussing is he is given that task.

Bill: And then it turns out it's all a test.

Bill: The proof is that he's not a narc.

It's to prove that he is really one of them.

Aaron: It's phenomenal acting on on behalf of the uh brahim hadagi you know the actor Aaron: who plays because you you feel his his rage and frustration you know and this is not just he's.

Bill: An intense person.

Aaron: Yeah and uh it i mean you'll see this in a lot of ponte corvo's work you'll Aaron: see these amazing people acting in his films and then they just you try to find Aaron: other work that they're in and they're.

Evan: Nothing else i think what what also strikes me i mean you were you're asking Evan: bill like sort of how is laplante sort of radicalized how does he sort of get Evan: you know um involved with the struggle and i and i think one of the things in Evan: my notes that i kind of or in my own personal notes too is.

Evan: It's sort of like the i lost my train of thought it was like the he was right Evan: you know he was he was not like this well-educated person that was radicalized Evan: by reading and learning about press revolutions.

Evan: He was simply radicalized by his life on the street in a colonial empire.

Evan: The French colonial empire in Algeria.

Evan: And he is very willing, clearly, to do whatever it takes to be part of.

Evan: He obviously knows about the FLN and what they are and who they are.

Evan: And so joining them to me is simply just kind of the, I don't know, Evan: I don't want to say like the rest is history, but you know, you live this and Evan: you want to do something about it, you're going to find a way to join the struggle.

Evan: And then I think I put a couple of quotes from Franz Fanon from Wretched of the Earth.

Evan: And one of the quotes when he was sort of talking about the type of people that Evan: are involved in revolutions, he says, the peasantry is systematically left out Evan: of most of the nationalist party's propaganda, but it's obvious that in colonial Evan: countries, only the peasantry is revolutionary.

Evan: And we can maybe decide whether that's fully accurate or not.

Evan: But I think people like LaPont are crucial to the success of these organizations.

Evan: And we see it later on, sort of post and sort of the epilogue of the film is Evan: these guys start the revolution or start this uprising in this battle.

Evan: And while maybe they lose the battle, they're able to win like the hearts and Evan: minds of all the people in Algiers and eventually succeed in their revolution.

Aaron: I'm really glad you brought up Fanon because Fanon, as those who've read his Aaron: work know, was in Algeria during the struggle, the Algerian War of Independence.

Aaron: And he was so close to the FLN.

He was basically like an ambassador, Aaron: like a guy going out talking on their behalf because, you know, Aaron: they have to go to ground.

Aaron: They can't do anything.

And to speak to the just the reality of this situation, Aaron: too, because this is another thing in my notes that I wanted to bring up.

Aaron: So for those who may not be familiar with French politics, Marine Le Pen is Aaron: the head of this far right nationalist party, the National Rally in France.

Aaron: And her father fought in the Algerian war and he was scathing in his attacks on this film.

Aaron: He hated it.

I mean, obvious, but just to give you an idea of how real this is.

Aaron: And, you know, even to this day, like between the relations of France, Aaron: France and Algeria, like to give you an idea on December 24th, Aaron: so like two weeks prior to this recording out the Algerian parliament passed Aaron: the law criminalizing the glorification of the colonial regime.

Aaron: And in 2021, this is actually, this actually drove me up the wall when I heard this.

Aaron: The Emmanuel Macron said that Algerians have rewritten the history quote, Aaron: based on a discord course of hatred towards France.

Aaron: Like that's how tone deaf and like how, how segments of the French population Aaron: see this as like, you know, this, this lost cause sort of fantasy.

Aaron: Exactly like the confederacy like this lost cause sort of fantasy this what-if-ism.

Ward: But counterpoint everybody hates the french so like who gives a fuck what they think right yeah like.

Bill: France i mean come on, Bill: Actually, nobody cares.

Aaron: But yeah.

And, um, just progressing through the film as well.

Aaron: One thing I also really wanted to highlight is that the film does not portray that FLN is saints.

Aaron: And I think that's really important too, because, um, well, obviously like F Aaron: the French, I don't know if I can swear on the podcast, but.

Ward: Oh, absolutely.

Aaron: You know, fuck the French.

But even in terms of like what they're doing in terms Aaron: of sort of administering Algiers, right?

Aaron: They have this cleanup campaign of like, we need to remove any potentially subversive Aaron: elements.

And what does that mean?

Aaron: That means getting rid of junkies.

And it says it in the film, Aaron: junkies, drunks, prostitution.

And some of this is seen liberatory, Aaron: you know, when Ali Laplante guns down the pimp, the brothel owner.

Aaron: But some of it is, it makes you feel a little uncomfortable when you see the Aaron: kids, literally, there's a scene in the film where there's kids just beating Aaron: a drunken man on the street.

Aaron: And it's, it's from the perspective of the FLN and a lot of revolutionary forces, Aaron: you know, you can't have these elements cause they can be corrupted.

Aaron: They could be used to, to, to counter infiltrate, you know, our space, Aaron: you know, we have to be united.

Bill: Yeah, that was a very interesting, um.

Bill: I mean, like on one hand, like criminal, like the direct criminal element, Bill: it's like, that's kind of like on one hand, but like the like drunk, Bill: I mean, but at the same time, it's like, Bill: if we look at a history of the way colonial forces have introduced those elements Bill: to a population that they are, uh, Bill: colonizing and oppressing, you know, if we look at America, Bill: you know, that the United States got deliberately introduced alcohol to the Bill: indigenous population and fostered and pushed it and created a.

Bill: Chemical dependency amongst a lot of people uh in Bill: an effort to weaken that group to some degree you Bill: know and it's yeah it's it's hard but again Bill: we return to like how like this like you said like they don't present them as Bill: saints and i think that this is again like when we come back to it's like there Bill: is a stark difference that between the left and marxists marcus marcus londonists Bill: who call for revolution and want, Bill: change, but we also acknowledge, nobody here, we all here acknowledge that to Bill: have a true revolution in which we will see a better future will require violence, correct?

Ward: Mm-hmm.

Aaron: Yeah.

Bill: But do, do any of us want that?

Do we, are we eager for it?

Aaron: No.

Ward: No.

Aaron: And the film shows that.

Bill: Exactly and it's like and it's the same thing Bill: when it comes to that it's like none of them are like oh this is like great Bill: we have to do this it's like yeah they're like another like yeah we gotta do Bill: this it's like fuck we gotta do this now it's like fuck suck this sucks like Bill: we don't want to have to do this and it's like if this was presented from if Bill: this was written by what's his face the mil, Bill: Red Dawn.

What's his, I forget his name.

Ward: Milieuse.

Bill: Milieuse, yeah.

If this was written by Milieuse, Milieuse would be like, oh, this is awesome.

Bill: We're going to glorify all of this violence.

It's going to be great.

Bill: It's awesome.

And we're going to kill the drunks.

And we're going to hold it Bill: up as a monument to moralism.

Bill: And it's such a stark contrast.

Ward: Could you imagine like seven scenes in Battle of Algiers where the Ephelon just Ward: stops what they're doing, raises their guns up in the air and goes, Ward: Ephelon, like Wolverine style.

Aaron: And I'm sorry.

I just want to bring up two quick things.

First, Aaron: this movie actually was an inspiration partly for Red Dawn.

Evan: Yeah, unfortunately.

Bill: Which is horrifying.

Aaron: Yeah.

And then number two.

Bill: Yeah, we know that.

It's terrible.

Aaron: And number two is, I just want to bring up the counterpoint of the real sort Aaron: of rallying cry moments are just people in the streets or people in the prisons.

Aaron: Like you see in the prison where the guy goes, long live Algeria.

Aaron: And the prisoners respond so vehemently.

Aaron: And it's not the French that silences them.

It's the guy who says, Aaron: we got to see if he's going to have any last words.

Aaron: We got to see him before they guillotine him.

You know, we have to give him Aaron: the chance to say his last words.

Aaron: And especially too on violence and on the glorification of it, Aaron: it's important to really know it's, I always highlight this.

Aaron: The FLN is never the party that really drives the escalation, right?

Aaron: The, the beginning part, the, and we, they were told at the beginning of the Aaron: film, there's been fighting in the mountains.

There's been skirmishes.

Aaron: They only really attack the police and it's really only to just get their weapons.

Aaron: I don't think they even like ensure that they kill them.

They just ambush them, Aaron: steal their rifles and guns and then flee.

Aaron: But once the, and this is another scene that happens in the film, Aaron: once the, the residential complex is bombed in the Caswa and the FLN and the Aaron: people are angry and, you know, they see the FLN as these protectors, these civic guardians, Aaron: you know, they're presiding over weddings.

They're doing good things for the community.

Aaron: The people are like what are you going to do they just Aaron: bombed our homes and you know jafar Aaron: the supposed head even makes a visible Aaron: appearance when you know by all rights that would be really dangerous for someone Aaron: in his position and says we will avenge you don't worry we can't just storm Aaron: the european quarter and fight them like this because we'll all die and then Aaron: you start to see the the bombings of cafes the bombings of the airports the Aaron: civilians so they didn't start attacking civilians.

Aaron: It's more of a rising of the escalation ladder.

Evan: Yeah, exactly.

Evan: That's a really good point.

And part of, in going back even slightly further Evan: for when Jafar meets LaPont for the first time, Evan: and I think he's kind of, after he explains to him sort of the reason for his Evan: test, he specifically calls out that first we have to organize and then we can take action.

Evan: And so they focus so heavily on the organization of the FLN to actually be that Evan: support system for the community.

Evan: And as you said, it's only because of these other incidents that they sort of Evan: escalate their violence.

And I want to just read one other Fanon quote from Wretched of the Earth.

Evan: It kind of goes back to, you know, the idea of violence.

And it's from just Evan: the page three, first paragraph of the book for anyone who is reading at home.

Evan: In its bare reality, decolonization reeks of red hot cannonballs and bloody knives.

Evan: For the last can be the first only after a murderous and decisive confrontation Evan: between the two protagonists.

Evan: This determination to have the last move up to the front Evan: to have them clamor too quickly some say the Evan: famous echelons of the organized society can only Evan: succeed by resorting to every means including of course violence and so you Evan: don't necessarily want that violence but it isn't inevitable when you have a Evan: protagonist or a colonizer whose only method is violence so you know that's Evan: what you end up getting and.

Aaron: Yeah and we we look at parallels today Aaron: you know in israel palestine you know the the the cries for justice of the people Aaron: in gaza in rafa in remote even in the west bank as well in east jerusalem you Aaron: know we we see the the the deliberate, Aaron: It's like Bill said, like you could, if you took off the grainy filter and, you know, Aaron: change the architecture a little bit, you probably couldn't tell the difference Aaron: between Ramallah or East Jerusalem and Algiers in this film.

Evan: And on top of that, as the violence starts to escalate, we see the police's Evan: response is to essentially seal off the Arab quarter and creating, Evan: and everyone in my notes like apartheid, like this is the apartheid.

Evan: This is Jerusalem, as you just said.

Evan: So it's forming the same structures to blockade the undesirables, Evan: as the colonizer would say, Evan: into a region so that they can be more easily maintained and dealt with.

Ward: Yeah, it's that escalation that we see from the colonizers first before the FLN has to respond.

Aaron: Yeah, I would say this, like, I typically divide the film into three parts.

Aaron: And when I watch it, the first part being like the sort of the organizing of Aaron: the FLN, we see the backstories, what's going on.

Aaron: And then this is the second part, the sort of like, Aaron: the FLN has the manpower and Aaron: everything and to give you an idea in the Aaron: actual like algerian war about like Aaron: just to show how brutal it was Aaron: i believe 1.5 million algerians died Aaron: in throughout the course of this and Aaron: you know it is it is a horrifically brutal Aaron: occupation it is it Aaron: is violent it it does not hide its Aaron: violence it does not pretend i mean one of Aaron: the generals who was in Aaron: charge of the french military in algeria the real generals he even said on a Aaron: 60 minute interview um if you don't mind give me a second to get his name he Aaron: said on a 60 minute interview that yeah we use torture we tortured them we murdered Aaron: people like this is what it took to keep algeria.

Bill: Matto is very he's very upfront about that.

He was like, there's no, he does not like, Bill: No bones about it.

He's like, yeah, this is what you do.

This is what you have to do.

Evan: He doesn't use the word torture.

He basically was like, we used enhanced interrogation.

Evan: Like he used his little metaphor to make it sound or his, yeah.

Anyway, sorry.

Bill: Very straightforward.

It says, like, do you want to, when they have that press Bill: conference, he says, it's like, do you want to keep Algeria?

Bill: Oh, then we got to do this.

Did we have to be barbarous?

We have to be monsters.

Bill: Like he's straight up just like, do you want it?

Do you want it?

Bill: Then all right, this is what we're going to do.

Aaron: Yeah.

Ward: Slings you have to go to.

Aaron: And I also bring up, now that we're talking about Mathieu, I also always bring Aaron: up, we don't see Ali LaPointe first in the film.

We see Mathieu first.

Aaron: We don't see the resistance first.

We see the occupation.

Aaron: We see a man being tortured.

Our first thing is not to draw a parallel.

This was Red Dawn.

Aaron: The first thing we'd see is an American flag and a guy with a fist raised up Aaron: in defiance.

But no, in this, the folk and it speaks to the focus of the film.

Aaron: The focus of the film is not violence for the sake of violence.

Aaron: It is about the earth, like some sort of bombastic violence, Aaron: the way it's portrayed in Western media.

But it's it's a tragic thing.

Aaron: It is something that is a last resort and people feel they have no choice.

Aaron: And also the guy is paul i don't want to attempt his name i'll sorry i'll so Aaron: rest is i don't fucking know but this guy it's.

Bill: Okay to butcher french names remember it's okay and.

Aaron: To give you guys some context on this dude he's a real piece of Aaron: work he went to work with the um with the brazilian um military dictatorship Aaron: he went to work with the u.s military this is not a a guy we want to be celebrating Aaron: by any stretch of the imagination somehow.

Evan: He lived to age 95 like all these fucking war criminals do.

Aaron: Yeah yeah, Aaron: I just want to bring up, you know, Mathieu's first thing is about the counterinsurgency.

Aaron: He has this footage of people, random people, and he's like, Aaron: is Algeria our enemy?

Of course it's not.

Aaron: And we, the audience, are kind of like, are you sure about that?

Aaron: Because it seems like the whole of Algeria is your enemy at this point.

Aaron: And he's saying, like, we have to live with these people, but we have to be suspect of everything.

Aaron: And there's the fruit merchant who Aaron: spills his stuff and everybody in the thing laughs Aaron: at him but Mathieu who's portrayed as this guy who served in Indochina Aaron: who was in the resistance and for the record the actual actor was part of the Aaron: French resistance against Nazi Germany so even he has radical background you Aaron: know he protested the Algerian war from metropolitan France and so which is.

Bill: It's such an interest out of everybody.

Like, I know that he chose him partly Bill: because he was a stage actor and like he wanted to keep like, Bill: it's like, oh, he's an actor, but also he's a stage actor.

Bill: So he's not like quite as known.

But the fact that he was blacklisted, as you said earlier, Bill: for his defiance and his stance against it, like there is no part of this that Bill: isn't thought about radically, you know, and in opposition to the empire.

Aaron: And just to highlight like because Aaron: i love guillo pontocorvo's movies right like Aaron: to give some context on this dude like this man Aaron: was part of the he was part of the italian communist party in 1941 he was he Aaron: was uh definitely like part of the resistance part of the resistance there pontocorvo Aaron: yeah pontocorvo sorry the director Aaron: of the film he is his politics shines through in everything he does.

Aaron: And he always makes it a point like in these films that he does to get actors Aaron: who quote unquote, get it right.

Aaron: For those who know Marlon Brando, you know, he is a very politically active Aaron: actor, you know, they're less savory things about the man too, Aaron: but, um, his standing up for indigenous peoples, Aaron: um, in the United States.

Aaron: And he's in one of Ponte Corvo's main Aaron: movies uh kimada burn the other big Aaron: one besides the battle of algiers and it's funny because Aaron: on a separate side tangent columbia pictures Aaron: offered to make a movie about you know Aaron: like i think like uh like a dramatization Aaron: of the sort of indian wars in the united states with uh brando and ponte corvo Aaron: and brando refused columbia pictures because they wouldn't give political rights Aaron: to the film to indigenous people he said i want them to have creative control Aaron: over this film and colombia obviously said no.

Aaron: And Ponte Corvo was like, yeah, if he's not doing it, I'm not doing it.

Aaron: And the film never got made.

Aaron: But yeah.

And going back to the movie, Aaron: you know, it's like now that Mathieu has entered the spotlight, Aaron: we see the occupation becomes even more brutal and how the FLN has to respond even more so.

Aaron: And also i just want to highlight even matthew says like id checks are pointless Aaron: because who is going to have their papers in order yeah the resistance he's Aaron: like this is a stupid practice i.

Bill: Love how during that whole scene they actually they show her they show one of Bill: the women that bob like they she's right there.

Aaron: Yeah there she is.

Ward: Okay yeah no i like that too because it's like Ward: it's very much how like Ward: western western societies operate where Ward: it's like okay guys let's have our hr meeting on how to Ward: fucking be colonizers okay and it's like yeah it really churches up like how Ward: they should be doing things but it's only in that meeting for that moment that Ward: they talk about oh they need to do it the right way but then we immediately Ward: see the reality is no they just got more brutal.

Evan: They were just aiming to get more permission, essentially, from France to be Evan: more brutal during this time.

Evan: And one of the things I wrote as they were kind of showing that video of the Evan: checkpoint is sort of like pre-surveillance state monitoring of insurgencies.

Evan: Obviously, now we have cameras and drones and AI, you know, insanity in Gaza and other places.

Evan: And they didn't have that, but they still had this understanding of how these Evan: groups work with the sort of the pyramid structure where not everyone knows each other.

Evan: But if they can get to one person, they can get to the person above him and Evan: slowly move their way up the chain.

Evan: Like the way that he describes their plan to the sort of people living in Algeria is, I don't know.

Evan: You may not agree with what he's doing, but it's a very well-crafted scene.

Aaron: And I just want to bring up, you know, Mathieu, he's questioned, too, by the press.

Aaron: And he says, at some point, people were like, aren't you guys being a little brutal?

Aaron: Like, aren't you guys being a little fascist-y?

And he gets visibly offended, Aaron: saying that, you know, I fought Nazis.

Aaron: If you think we're Nazis, then like, he's basically like, I'll fight you right Aaron: here.

If you think I'm a Nazi.

Okay.

Aaron: And it really speaks to how close, how similar this is, how this is fascism Aaron: and how the interfascist sort of confrontation in a sense between like France Aaron: and Nazi Germany, right?

Aaron: It strikes a chord because you're being identified as the enemy.

Aaron: Like you're no different from them.

Evan: I mean, it reminds me also now of situations where like Benjamin Netanyahu has Evan: had press conferences where he responds to people calling, you know, Evan: the things that Israel is doing as related to Nazis.

Evan: And, you know, then he's, of course, like, oh, it's Hamas that are the Nazis Evan: or the fascists or the people waving Palestinian flags.

Evan: And it's the true ironic sense of the fascist calling the people trying to protest Evan: and, you know, free themselves.

Evan: They're apparently the fascists, you know, as depicted only by the fascists.

Aaron: And as we move through the film, Aaron: you know, one thing I want to always bring up during to people's attentions Aaron: to the use of lighting is really important because the Algerians never like Aaron: not until the very end when they're desperate, don't really strike at night.

Aaron: It's always during the daytime they're in the populace but the French, Aaron: and it's flipped are usually in the dark until the very end of the film where Aaron: you know the final raid that we see at the beginning and at the end just another thing I thought of.

Evan: That's interesting.

I hadn't, I hadn't, what do you think the reason for that?

Evan: Is it easier to get around because they have curfews in the evening for, Evan: you know, anyone who's, you know, Arab?

Aaron: Well, not just that, but, well, I think that is absolutely a part of it, Aaron: like in a, in a real sense.

Aaron: But when you think about it, right, like Algerians going into, Aaron: and this actually, thank you.

Thank you.

Aaron: Um, uh, Evan for, for bringing this up.

Aaron: It segues nicely into the next part of the film.

Aaron: Um, the Algerians have to be in the French spaces.

Aaron: They have to work there.

They have to go there.

And so they can choose whenever they want to go.

Aaron: So, and they got to blend it back into the populace as, you know, Aaron: revolutionary movements do.

Aaron: But the French going into the Casbah is unheard of.

Aaron: Like, why would a French person go into the Algerian quarter?

Aaron: Why would you lower yourself?

Aaron: As is one of the colonizers, we see how powerful this, this ability to go between Aaron: quarters is during the strike, Aaron: the UN strike where the FLN says, brothers and sisters do not go to the French quarter.

Aaron: Do not open your shops.

Do not do anything.

uh we Aaron: want to show the u.n what happens and Aaron: in the real u.n vote the u.s abstained they saw Aaron: that this the french were on their way out they were like and Aaron: we see this like in the suez crisis which is mentioned a few times in the film Aaron: which for those who may not know is when france and britain had their last hurrah Aaron: in an attempt to to maintain their colonial power when And they tried to overturn Aaron: Gamal Abdel Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal, Aaron: working through their best friend of Israel, Aaron: you know, and try to seize the canal by force.

Aaron: And it was defeated.

And the U.S.

basically scolded them and said, Aaron: no, see, we're in charge now.

Aaron: We're the leaders of the capitalist, you know, imperialist bloc now.

Aaron: You guys don't get to make these decisions anymore.

Bill: I did find the, it really was like, it's just like, oh, look, Bill: the UN, as useless as it is today, it was then.

Bill: The UN, a history of not doing anything for anybody being oppressed by the West.

Bill: Good for you.

At least you're consistent.

Aaron: Well, the actually the really interesting thing, too, is at the beginning, Aaron: obviously the UN is a joke now, but at the very beginning in this stage of it, Aaron: you know, the 50s and 60s, it had a lot of weight to it because they'd just Aaron: come out of the World War Two.

Aaron: And the US took it very seriously.

They didn't veto things as much.

Aaron: They didn't try to be like the bully that they are now in the UN because they Aaron: recognized all these countries are getting independence.

Aaron: And if they try strong earning people, they will, the Soviet Union's waiting Aaron: with the, you know, hey, you hate these guys.

And that's why they abstained.

Aaron: They saw like, if we vote in favor of France, we look horrible.

Evan: One of the other things I wanted to note, because we've brought up a few times Evan: that the press conference and a couple other mentions of, you know, Evan: when they're sort of putting to them, you know, oh, you know, Evan: don't you want us to stay here?

You know, obviously we need to do this.

Evan: There's something else that I found that maybe there's some like subtext or Evan: maybe it's obvious as I'm watching it is it's very clear that the French want Evan: to or Matteo wants to control the narrative that the press is also using.

Evan: There's sort of the moment where they're sort of outside and entering in the Evan: press conference or they're maybe he's like leaving and they're all sort of Evan: crowding around him asking him questions.

Evan: And it's very clear he wants them to portray this in a way where he's claiming, Evan: oh, like, you know, unbiased, like the way you want to do it.

Evan: But it's like if you guys do your jobs, meaning for empire, the people around Evan: the world will know what's happening.

Evan: And it's very clear that if Evan: they lose the press and they lose the narrative as Evan: part of this general strike and everything that's going on the the world will Evan: change their perspective i think that's also extremely relevant to palestine Evan: where you know maybe five years ago the national or the the global perception Evan: of the palestinian struggle was far lower than it is now after seeing.

Evan: The genocide that Israel has committed and all of these things and seeing what's Evan: going on and they can't hide what they're doing anymore.

Evan: And it did seem like from my reading is that the world was starting to see what Evan: the French were doing in Algeria more than they had ever had before.

Aaron: Well, also, too, and this is mentioned a lot in this sort of press conference part of the film, Aaron: the Battle of Dian Ben Fu had just happened and the French were absolutely routed Aaron: in what was called Indochina, Aaron: now Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos.

Aaron: And for those who may not be familiar like because Aaron: this battle was so decisive this is the Aaron: equivalent of like oh well why don't you guys have uh Aaron: guns and we don't have the same guns and bombs and stuff Aaron: well the vietnamese did and they trounced the Aaron: the french and that's part of the because the pr was so bad france withdrew Aaron: and said okay we're out we're leaving you guys win okay and And that's where Aaron: kind of Mathieu is afraid because it's mentioned a lot that he's a veteran of the Indochina War.

Aaron: And, you know, he was at Dimdenfu and he's trying to prevent that sort of PR Aaron: spiral of like, oh, well, we really don't have control of the situation.

Maybe we cut our losses.

Aaron: And to give an idea of what's happening in metropolitan France at this point, Aaron: this issue was so divisive.

Aaron: It brought down the Fourth Republic of France.

like soldiers from algeria went Aaron: to corsica and were basically like because they were taught debating about withdrawing Aaron: and they were like you will withdraw over our dead bodies.

Aaron: And it almost sparked a civil war and charles de gaulle had to come out of retirement Aaron: and was basically like okay guys you win i'm back let's figure this shit out Aaron: and that's that's how like Because this is like when I brought up the Hawaii Aaron: point, that's what I mean.

Aaron: This is the equivalent of like a state, like for all the bluster, Aaron: like this less revolutionary example.

Aaron: But if Texas left the United States, like that would be the sort of psychological Aaron: damage it would do to the U.S.

psyche.

Aaron: If Alaska became independent or Hawaii became independent, there would be elements Aaron: of people who would be like, no, I'm from here.

Aaron: And like to give a more historical perspective, Aaron: like at the time, so as the film goes on, we might be fast forwarding a little bit in the sixties, Aaron: France basically decided to dismantle its colonial empire in 1960, Aaron: 1961 on its own terms, quote unquote, Aaron: really shifting to a neocolonial model.

Aaron: And they gave independence to every territory in Africa, except for three of them.

Aaron: The first being French Somaliland, which is now Djibouti.

Aaron: The second being the Comoros, which is a small archipelago in the Indian Ocean, and Algeria.

Aaron: That's they gave political independence to everybody Aaron: else except those three and to to Aaron: give an idea i i looked Aaron: at the populations of these places at the time you know jibouti had a population Aaron: of 86 000 people right at the time the comoros had 198 000 people these are Aaron: not huge like places not to say that colonialism is justified when there's small Aaron: amount of people but You can see where I'm getting at.

Bill: You heard it here first.

Baroness and Fabian.

As long as, listen, Bill: under 200,000 population, totally okay.

Ward: But Valentine.

Aaron: In Algeria, there was 11 million people, and metropolitan France had 47 million people.

Aaron: And of those 11, approximately 1.1 million were basically colonizers from France.

Aaron: Like, they would not surrender.

And as the war became more desperate, Aaron: these colonizers formed their own military organizations, their own militias, Aaron: and basically did their own...

Aaron: Pogroms and it got to the point where even today like macron basically in the Aaron: sort of you know macronist way said we committed war crimes in algeria and did not apologize for it, Aaron: which is basically this is not an apology no he said this explicitly this is Aaron: not an apology We're just acknowledging that it happened.

Aaron: And that's how this whole relationship defines.

And there are still the descendants Aaron: of these people who live there.

Aaron: I mean, there was a mass migration.

They're called the Pid Noir who left after the independence.

Aaron: But a lot of them stayed and remained part of Algeria, you know, Aaron: because they felt it was part of their home.

Aaron: And, yeah, that's why I bring up the point.

Aaron: This is not just, we see colonial, especially when it comes to Africa, Aaron: we see, we think of the metropolitan areas as seeing this as far flung provinces Aaron: with like, oh, we lost it.

Aaron: Oh, well, like how Britain viewed India.

But this, this one was different.

Aaron: This is like how the US views Hawaii or Puerto Rico or, you know, Aaron: to an extent, indigenous territory, uh, indigenously held territory in the United States.

Aaron: Like they would rather destroy the country than give it up for the same reason Aaron: that we, we, we, for the same reason, you know, we say sovereignty for the Algerian Aaron: people.

they say is it not our sovereignty to keep our territory united.

Bill: It is even.

Aaron: Though it was obtained through horrific means.

Bill: It just you know i can i cannot help but anytime like seeing it it's just like Bill: like oh we're here and it's just like go home like you it's not yours like they act, Bill: so the attitude of presumed, Bill: It's the entitlement.

It's just a constant sense of entitlement.

Bill: It's like baked in and it just, no matter how cynical and jaded I get, Bill: no matter how old I get and how, you know, how much time I spend on this planet watching this shit, Bill: there's a little part of me that's still just like, Bill: wait, like why do you think you're entitled to this?

Like, where do you get off with this?

Bill: Like, you show up and you're just like yeah this is ours now it's like what Bill: in what way why do you think that what makes you think that why do you think you're so fucking.

Aaron: Speaking of entitlement i want to bring up Aaron: something very poignant it's about this is Aaron: not the french this is the portuguese but the portuguese if you Aaron: think the french were brutal based on this film the portuguese were much Aaron: worse in angola in Aaron: mozambique but what i really want to bring up is portugal Aaron: used to have a province in the indian Aaron: subcontinent called goa and the Aaron: the indian after indian Aaron: independence you know joe aral nehru the indian government Aaron: said okay thanks thanks guys you Aaron: know the rest of you also have to go france had some possessions Aaron: in portugal so france i i'm not Aaron: as familiar with how france left uh they called it Aaron: pondicherry but in goa portugal was Aaron: like what do you mean go this is Aaron: our this is a state this is a part of portugal like we Aaron: will fight you to the bitter end and they all Aaron: they tried to call in like nato over this Aaron: and they said nato like our our sovereign territories being attacked back us Aaron: up here and that's where the the corollary of only territories north of the Aaron: tropic of cancer will be defended because they're not the u.s was basically Aaron: like we're not defending your colonial empires.

Aaron: This is stupid and.

Bill: You're going to.

Aaron: Give up doha to india.

Bill: I mean and that's it we have to that is most likely a political choice on the Bill: part of the u.s with like this would serve us very well if their colonial uh Bill: properties you know we're not defended there's no way.

Aaron: Yeah and to go back to the film i want to bring up as the strike is going on Aaron: um at a certain point at the end of the strike Like when the conflict heats up, Aaron: they capture a guy, Ben Meadie.

Aaron: This is the guy with the glasses and handcuffs in the press conference with Mathieu.

Aaron: And I just want to bring up a really quick thing.

Because in the film, Aaron: and this was a real controversy in French-Algerian relations, Aaron: one of the reporters asks, you know, Aaron: well, this is after when news of his death arrives.

Aaron: And one of the reporters is like, so we know you keep FLN prisoners bound.

Aaron: And you're telling us he ripped up his shirt and hung himself.

Like, how?

Aaron: And it took until Macron's presidency recently to admit, yes, Aaron: French paratroopers killed Ben Midi.

Aaron: That's how long it took for france to basically talk about this and and say Aaron: things about this you know.

Bill: Yeah that felt very uh epstein coded Bill: like there was a media came to Bill: i was like oh this is epstein like this is an epstein moment like this is you Bill: know one day we're gonna come back to this and it's gonna be well maybe i don't Bill: you know but i i definitely i would like you to talk more about uh the media Bill: like the the real life individual that he you know, Bill: and you know like his his position exactly you know um and like what you know his role was.

Aaron: So to give you all an idea, like a lot of the, we don't, we see very little Ben Meadey in the film.

Aaron: But he is part of like the executive committee of, because the FLN is not just Aaron: in Algiers, as they reference in the film, they're in the mountains, Aaron: they're in the deserts, they're everywhere.

Aaron: And he was part of the leadership committee in Algiers at the time.

Aaron: And so he is one of the political heads, one of the political and military heads in Algiers.

Aaron: So he's pretty much the equivalent of an Ali Leprunt, a Jafar in terms of rank Aaron: and influence amongst the people.

Aaron: And you know he was captured in the same way that and he was more politically.

Aaron: Radicalized like he had more formal education than Ali LaPointe he went to a Aaron: French school he was more but he, Aaron: He's seen as a hero to the Algerian people.

The same as Ali Leprante, the real man.

Aaron: Like, there's statues of him throughout there.

The same as Petit Omar.

Aaron: These are all real, like, especially the FLN people, are usually real people.

Aaron: And if they're not, like Jafar, they're played by the people they're supposed to be acting as.

Aaron: Because you're not going to have Yosef Sadi, the guy who's the actor, Aaron: being like, yeah, I'm Yosef Sadi.

I'm also playing myself here.

Aaron: You know, they had to give them a different name, but yes.

Aaron: So Ben Meadie was, was captured and they, they did the interview and everything.

Aaron: And everyone is like, basically the French were like, Oh, we don't know.

Aaron: We don't know what happened.

You know, we, we, he, he was alive one minute.

He was dead the next.

Aaron: And that's pretty much their, their sort of position on the thing.

Aaron: They tried repeatedly to do it to because this would be like and guess who was in his guess who was, Aaron: who had custody of him before he died our good friend Paul I was sorry whatever Aaron: his fucking name is that guy who went to Brazil like the this is the level of Aaron: brutality of it and people were saying that you know.

Aaron: Everyone, one, Islam, he's a devout Muslim man, and Islam is very clear about Aaron: not committing suicide.

Aaron: And two, like it says in the film, most of these people, given the chance, would rather flee.

Aaron: They're not going to kill themselves because they see, but they know they'll have a chance.

Aaron: Like, if they can just get that one chance to escape, to go back to the struggle, they'll do it.

Aaron: You know like and we see that like literally in the Aaron: first in the opening of the film that the guy who is Aaron: literally crying crying out free algeria which Aaron: honestly if you take out algeria and you put in palestine i Aaron: would not it would sound so prescient to today like roaring through the prisons Aaron: roaring through the streets of the old city roaring through this all of all Aaron: of historic Palestine and so.

Aaron: He's a very influential figure.

We could talk a lot about him, Aaron: but I especially want to talk about, you know, as the film, the post-climax Aaron: of the film, you know, when we see the net closing in on Jafar, Aaron: on Ali LaPrente, and Mathieu's strategy is working, right?

Aaron: And this is also why counterinsurgents love to use this film.

Aaron: They're like Matthew's thing of like the cell structure is what organizations Aaron: use, revolutionary organizations use.

Aaron: In places like Vietnam, it's mentioned like people from the IRA in Ireland, the PLO in Palestine.

Aaron: This is revolutionary science, as best the word can describe.

Aaron: And we see the net closing in and we see how people react differently to this.

Aaron: And this is where they start attacking at night, like with the ambulance and Aaron: where the strategy is kind of lost a little bit because everything is dying around them.

Aaron: But as the movie tells us, you know, everything, it's not dead and buried, but it is struggling.

Aaron: And it's important to know you know sadi yosef Aaron: was was captured and the same fucking Aaron: general the same asshole the real life Aaron: general said that oh like trying to Aaron: disparage the memory of the Aaron: man said oh he betrayed ali la point he was our Aaron: informant when you know there are historians who say no that that doesn't track Aaron: at all like this is this makes no sense and you know we see how different people Aaron: are responding differently like some are are going out you know to the.

Aaron: The French are blasting over the air raids.

Imagine hearing this, Aaron: like your comrades, like where he's like, um, Simurad, Jafar, Aaron: all of them have been captured and just listing all the people.

Aaron: And, you know, the guys who hear that, and I'm talking about the scene where, Aaron: they're like, we need a letter of a fair trial from you, Mathieu.

Aaron: We want to make sure that our rights will be respected.

And they basically use Aaron: it as time to prep, you know, a bomb.

Aaron: And we see you know there are Aaron: people who just will not be taking and another another quick thing uh because Aaron: we i kind of uh sped past that a little bit um also the sacrifices especially Aaron: of the algerian women cannot be underestimated the fact that like such a the veil the veil the Aaron: hijab is such an integral part of their identity and Aaron: they shed it in the sake of for the fight of revolution Aaron: to look french to take on the visage of Aaron: the colonizer such a powerful scene and it shows the length that they'll take Aaron: for freedom to to basically sacrifice their culture for others and and i saw Aaron: especially poignant where jafar talks to the elderly woman who is less French Aaron: looking, quote unquote, whatever that means.

Aaron: And she's like, I need to be part of this.

I'll bring my son.

Aaron: We will make it work.

That's how driven these people were.

Aaron: And the brave women and people who.

Aaron: Were in this in the struggle and you Aaron: know for i also want to bring up because sometimes people Aaron: poo-poo the film about oh it uses child soldiers like Aaron: look at petit omar and i kind of Aaron: push back at that because occupation touches every part Aaron: of life and so they don't Aaron: give him a gun and send them to the to to go kill Aaron: french people they use him in roles that they know subversive roles like passing Aaron: information like i love the political intelligence when he takes the microphone Aaron: during the checkpoint and he's like the fln has not forgotten you we will win Aaron: we will we will survive this i.

Bill: Think that that is a especially in the west that is a a um often used it's similar Bill: to the um The excuse that, you know, Bill: Israel uses like human shields and it's like, it is both a...

Bill: Tacit like admittance of Bill: the actual like criminality and the Bill: barbary barbarity of the west and how Bill: like how they use that as an Bill: excuse while simultaneously continuing to Bill: do things that put those people put people Bill: in positions they claim are human shields which Bill: is not true um but they're still going Bill: to do whatever they claim you know do um and Bill: then the idea that like also like people don't Bill: treat children as humans with Bill: like full life experiences that with Bill: agency exactly they don't treat them as if Bill: they are full people with their Bill: own minds and thoughts and who have been Bill: affected by things it's as if they they act like Bill: because somebody is a because a person as a child Bill: they are incapable of Bill: understanding things or being impacted by Bill: like they they take the notion of western childhood Bill: and apply it to you know and in the west childhood is treated as basically like Bill: a bubble it's like they're just totally insulated from everything and they just Bill: take this like naive presumption and apply it to like a child like petite omar Bill: who is his circumstances are.

Bill: Vastly different than the average child on the streets of you know new york Bill: city you know or in the suburbs or anywhere within the you know like it's just wildly different.

Aaron: It is this mentality of segregating adult things yeah and child things like Aaron: i i mentioned i grew up learning politics Aaron: in my in my in my household growing up if Aaron: you if you weren't sharp on Aaron: your politics you would get clowned on even as Aaron: a kid and you know that's that spoke to Aaron: how my parents obviously we're not literally treating they're not Aaron: literally treating people as kids as adults but like they're Aaron: not infantilizing them you know saying oh you're Aaron: too young to understand this like no you need to Aaron: understand we are under occupation and Aaron: some children they they chose like petit omar Aaron: in this too and so it's important to make that distinction versus like the often Aaron: characterized depiction in western media of oh we're just giving this like 10 Aaron: year old boy a rifle which is the fln would not do that which is done totally.

Bill: For shock value and as a means of ginning up response from the population that you're looking to, Bill: basically manufacture consent with that's why they do that that's why they make those claims.

Aaron: Exactly and so as the film closes Aaron: we see the net closing on ali la plant and Aaron: i want to bring up he does not at no Aaron: point in the film is he like fearing for his Aaron: life he's like oh i'm like he knows how Aaron: this ends on some level like you Aaron: you see the determination in his face he's not afraid Aaron: to die yeah exactly and what really Aaron: speaks to the character and i like this in the portrayal is Aaron: he gives no qualms to anyone who wishes to Aaron: surrender he says if you choose to to Aaron: leave and also i love just as a side note Aaron: in terms of filmmaking the the the chekhov's Aaron: gun of making the the wall like hide Aaron: out and because we saw it at the beginning and we see them making Aaron: it and it's like oh we know this is coming back oh yeah we know how this ends Aaron: and he says to the woman there when he's basically talking to what's left of Aaron: the fln in algeria from from our perspective he's like if you want to surrender Aaron: that's okay you you can go and he says but i'm not going.

Aaron: And like the real Aledepunt, like the real person, he dies.

He dies fighting.

Aaron: And he is seen as a martyr and a symbol of the Algerian defiance.

Aaron: And one thing I really, really absolutely want to highlight is after they blow it up and he dies.

Aaron: And not to mention, and also I just want to make a quick side note.

in this Aaron: in the real life version of this i believe 16 other people died Aaron: so it's not just he died and they Aaron: just got him this this kills many other Aaron: algerians um there's a french soldier saying you know what what do we do now Aaron: we've we've won right and he's like oh we've gotten along for 130 years before Aaron: this and even that is just a whitewashing of the history because if you look, Aaron: Like even if you just do a cursory look at the Wikipedia page of colonial Algeria, Aaron: French Algeria, you'll see there are rebellions.

Aaron: Throughout the history of the thing it's not what we got along that's from your Aaron: perspective from their perspective it's like okay this attempt may not have Aaron: succeeded but we will try again.

Bill: Yeah it's it's it always comes back to that it's like that that notion of that Bill: the colonizers notion of it like you know um well it didn't affect me so we got along fine.

Ward: Yeah back to.

Bill: Brunch i've been benefiting i've been.

Aaron: Benefiting we got.

Bill: Along fine it's been it's been great it's been you know it's been wonderful Bill: i love it it's you know meanwhile.

Aaron: I can't help but bring up the hawaii example like Aaron: imagine if something like this happened in hawaii how many Aaron: americans would say oh well i mean hawaii was like what's Aaron: we've never had issues here yeah like indigenous Aaron: hawaiians what are you what are you talking about like while Aaron: hawaiian people and i've met hawaiian people who stand by Aaron: their culture and someday wish to Aaron: to be free there to see their kingdom restored you know this is not some distant Aaron: thing for them and it's really important to talk about the ending of the film Aaron: because the ending of the film is the most Beautiful way to encapsulate it because Aaron: it doesn't just say, oh yeah, but the Algerians won.

Hooray.

Aaron: No, it shows them like, and it's so beautiful because it says, Aaron: oh, everything was quiet.

Aaron: And then everything just erupted.

Like we don't understand.

Bill: Again, it returns to like, I thought we were fine.

Like everything's fine.

Ward: Was it not business as usual?

I thought we were back to business as usual.

Aaron: And then we get this amazing scene.

And I love the description of the Algerian Aaron: flag is, you know, the star and crescent on a green and white background.

Aaron: And they're like, they just tore bedsheets.

Aaron: They took whatever cloth they could find and made a flag out of it, out of defiance.

Aaron: And in those protests in 1960, hundreds of people died.

Aaron: A lot of people died.

but they refused to to surrender and it it culminate and Aaron: it it's it's not some like, Aaron: bombastic thing like a red dawn sort of like we fought them off at the end it Aaron: is it is a very somber thing that it says you know after years of struggle algeria Aaron: is finally independent in 1964 There's no great glorification.

Aaron: The film recognizes the sacrifices of all the people throughout this film and Aaron: throughout revolutionary struggle.

Aaron: Revolution cannot glorify violence.

It accepts that it's necessary in its places and times.

Evan: There's one quote I wanted to bring up that we kind of went past this before, Evan: but I think it's relevant to the end of the film and sort of you don't see into Evan: the future.

It doesn't give you the post.

Evan: Again, it only was filmed in 1966.

Evan: But I believe this is when the conversation with Lepland, he is being told sort Evan: of, or educated, I guess you could say.

Evan: And I'm blanking now on the character.

Aaron: Oh, Ben Meade.

Evan: Yes, Ed Meade.

Aaron: Ben Meade.

Evan: He says, um, it's hard enough to start a revolution, even harder to sustain Evan: it and hardest of all to win it.

It's only after the revolution, Evan: only after we've won it, that's the real difficulty begins.

Evan: And I think it's like a very poetic way to describe sort of the ever so difficult Evan: nature of each step in the way.

Evan: And you see throughout the film as sort of like the organization and the start Evan: of the revolution, but you don't really see the end of it.

Evan: But the way they depict the end of it is, as you said, it's just a beautiful Evan: way to kind of show the culmination of their efforts.

Aaron: And yeah like your point is absolutely Aaron: right about the this is where the real work begins Aaron: and i love that quote you know because when Aaron: you look at algeria like the referendum to to give independence i said 62 64 Aaron: sorry it's 62 um first 99.72 percent of the people voted for independence So Aaron: it was pretty much unanimous.

Aaron: But, you know, there you look at the history after the fact and you see like Aaron: literally the first thing you see on the I pulled up the Wikipedia page because Aaron: I can't like actively look for sources right now.

Aaron: But the first thing after independence is the 1965 coup.

Aaron: Right.

Like literally a few years later, there's political struggles like this Aaron: is the real work of figuring out a real Algeria.

Aaron: What do we do with the Pinot, the French who choose to stay?

Aaron: You know, what do we do about the inhomogeneity of Algeria?

You know, Aaron: Algeria is not just Arabs.

Aaron: There are Berbers and Tuaregs and other ethnic groups here.

Like, how do we build a state?

Evan: And there's multiple parties within Algeria.

Like the FLN isn't the only, Evan: you know, the only party.

Evan: There's the Communist Party there.

I think the.

Aaron: Exactly.

Evan: The, I don't know what, I don't know what the initials are, but like the national Evan: movement, you know, those are, which I think was founded by, Evan: I actually don't have it open at the moment.

Aaron: I think it's disaffected people from the FLN.

Evan: Yeah, probably right.

Exactly.

Bill: Split.

Split.

Aaron: Yeah.

And this is the difficulty.

I mean, we see revolutionary projects like, Aaron: you know, Cuba, China, Vietnam and say and think, oh, yeah, look at it.

There you go.

Aaron: That's it.

But we what we like, I love the quote of like, you know, Aaron: they talk about the failures of socialism, but look at the failures of capitalism Aaron: in Somalia and in, you know, Afghanistan and all these places.

Aaron: But, you know, we also have to look at, you know, the struggles post-revolution Aaron: of a lot of these societies because, you know, these revolutionary movements are not homogenous.

Aaron: You know, they're not just one hive mind operating, you know, as one mind, right?

Aaron: People have different opinions and they put aside those opinions for the sake Aaron: of the independence struggle.

Aaron: But what happens when that unifying force is gone?

Bill: It really makes me think of, and this was in reference to something completely Bill: different, but Ward and I were discussing the other day, a completely different thing.

Bill: And how Ward said, you know, how it's like, how liberals hate leftists because Bill: leftists are unwilling to just gloss over things.

Bill: How we're going to point out that it's not real, that you have to confront the Bill: difficult parts, that you can't just gloss over it.

You have to confront it.

And like...

Bill: In a world in which we watch media, which co-ops revolutionary struggles, Bill: like we are fed it by the state.

Bill: Watching this is such a profound difference.

Bill: There is no glossing it over.

There is no hand-waving it away.

Bill: There's like, no, this is what it is.

this is Bill: a lesson you need to learn we are Bill: going to give you it in a movie but this Bill: is a lesson you need to learn if you want to Bill: see successful struggle against things you Bill: need to take this seriously you need to really move forward with this and you Bill: can't gloss over things you can't ignore things because it makes you feel uncomfortable Bill: because you don't like it you can't You have to take care of it.

Bill: You have to struggle with it.

You have to internalize it.

Aaron: Yeah.

I agree 100%, Bill.

And for my own personal experience with this film, Aaron: my fiance, ironically, when we started dating, this is months ago.

Aaron: Into our relationship i was like you need to watch this movie to understand like how i see the world, Aaron: because i can't not see the world through this lens and this is the easiest Aaron: way to show you i mean i could go all the live long day about books and like Aaron: theory and things like that but what is more impactful than watching the brutality Aaron: of a colonial regime before your eyes, Aaron: presented in such graphic detail and you know it basically forces you to confront Aaron: it and i want to bring up a comparison i don't i i there's a lot of episodes Aaron: of left of the projector i don't know if y'all have covered this movie the patriot Aaron: you know with mel gibson and all them, Aaron: and and it's i always because i mean, Aaron: I hate, it's my, as a leftist, it's my guilty pleasure movie.

Aaron: I enjoy the filmmaking, the making of the movie, blah, blah, blah.

Aaron: But I contrast that quote unquote revolutionary film with the Battle of Algiers.

Aaron: How Mel Gibson is portrayed as this mythic, heroic figure and everything falls on him.

Aaron: Whereas in the Battle of Algiers, yeah, we know Ali LaPante, Aaron: but we don't know.

we we've we get only get passing lines about the rest of Aaron: the people but they're so integral.

Bill: I think that you Bill: are not giving those other people enough credit like Bill: like not that i'm not giving them enough credit but like Bill: i honestly don't think the film puts that much Bill: more on ali than jafar like Bill: the other ones like really like they don't Bill: there is no like the only reason LaPont is given like any kind of like even Bill: like I feel like any more like slightly it's just because like he's the audience's Bill: like he's the audience's proxy but the way it is presented is very much like he's not, Bill: He's not the hero.

He's not, you know, he's not great man.

There's no great Bill: man theory in this at all.

Yeah, no.

It's not present.

Ward: I really like that too.

It's very matter of the fact, like cutting through and Ward: it's like, there's parts of the whole film where it's like cut like a newsreel Ward: where it's like this day, this day, this day.

Ward: And it's not like anything like the Patriot, like how you mentioned where it's Ward: like, oh, his personal relationships.

Ward: Let's get you invested as the viewer emotionally into this person and his family.

Ward: So that that way he seems more righteous when he does things.

Ward: And there's none of that.

It's just very matter of fact.

Aaron: I apologize for not correctly conveying this, but like, I agree with you, Bill.

Aaron: Like, and that's sort of what I meant.

There's so many characters, Aaron: so many Algerian characters.

Aaron: And yes, we get, you know, Petit Omar, we get Jafar, we get Ali LaPointe as Aaron: our sort of like pseudo main characters of the thing.

but how many different Aaron: men and women are active?

Aaron: Like we never really get a name of the guy from the beginning of the film.

Aaron: The first Algerian we see.

Bill: God, that, we don't, man, that is, oh, that's a rough scene.

Bill: And you start off with that.

Bill: You cut the tear, the whole thing.

Aaron: The horror of just seeing literally the, the, the torture sequences.

Aaron: And I will say there is like a, I think there's a version of the film without Aaron: it when it was first released because it was so graphic for audiences of the day.

Aaron: I mean, now with the hyper violence of today, you know, I fear people have become Aaron: desensitized, but when it's portrayed like this, it shocks you.

Aaron: Like when they put the electric clamps on the guy, when they have the guy curled Aaron: up on like a bar and like, like it is.

Aaron: And they drop and they like do the forced drowning of people.

Aaron: Like they do horrific things to these people.

Aaron: And I, I, the, the, the film, it needs to do that.

You need to reconcile.

Aaron: Like Matthew said, if you want Algeria, this is what it will take.

Aaron: And thank, God, the French didn't push any further.

Aaron: Yeah.

Bill: Apology not accepted.

Aaron: But yeah, but this, this film is, is especially relevant in this day and age.

Aaron: Cause I know one thing in the show notes was about Venezuela and it's so poignant Aaron: to talk about because if you want the fruits of empire, this is what it takes to maintain empire.

Aaron: Like like matthew said like you know Aaron: if you want to keep all the the happy you know privileges of being a superpower Aaron: and there are no privileges for the working class let's get that straight um Aaron: it's for really the ruling class it's it's like well you got to deal with this and just like how, Aaron: maduro was unjustly and viciously kidnapped from his home country you know like Aaron: we're dealing with the fallout today like like how the, Aaron: bill said you know oh the tendency to Aaron: gloss over things like no like we've we've entered a new phase of of history Aaron: we've entered a new phase of of relations between countries the same way in Aaron: algeria algerian independence the end of decolonization it's just the world Aaron: keeps spinning and you know did.

Evan: You have any last uh last thoughts or anything you uh didn't get to.

Aaron: Oh yeah well one quick thing i i'm Aaron: gonna officially start this and i'm gonna comment on every video Aaron: y'all post but do kimada do more Aaron: of ponte corvo's work bill knows this Aaron: i have been ranting at him to watch more Aaron: of this dude's work because it is honestly phenomenal Aaron: um i wanted to thank y'all Aaron: all for having me and to share Aaron: my love of this film you know i i love film it's Aaron: one of the best ways to convey political feelings Aaron: because you know a picture is worth a thousand words like the ability Aaron: to to show revolutionary struggle and Aaron: not just read about it but see it from people who Aaron: were there who were participants and it Aaron: especially because the movie is made is Aaron: the script was written by uh yes of saadi the Aaron: guy who plays jafar who was one of the political heads Aaron: of the fln during the Aaron: battle of algiers he was there he was basically doing Aaron: what jafar was doing and so to Aaron: it's it's so powerful like one one can't even call it acting in the same way Aaron: we call acting in movies here because acting in like a DiCaprio movie is pretending Aaron: to be someone.

These people aren't pretending.

Aaron: This is what they live for.

Bill: It's funny you mentioned DiCaprio considering what he just won a bunch of awards for.

Evan: Well, I think what you did do, Aaron, actually, is volunteer to return to do Evan: another Pontecorbo film.

Aaron: Oh, I will absolutely.

If y'all ever want to have me come back, Aaron: I will.

I love talking about movies.

Bill knows.

Evan: I haven't seen Bird, and I've heard of it, and I almost feel like, Evan: yeah, I need to see that very soon.

Aaron: If you think there were good quotes in this movie, that movie is just completely, Aaron: it will drown you in great revolutionary quotes.

Aaron: Like, it is such a good film.

And the guy, I gotta look him up.

Aaron: I gotta do him justice.

Like I want to, I want to explore, I want to just show, Aaron: um, how just antithesis of, uh, actor he is.

Aaron: Uh, if you'll bear with me for a second, um, the man is named, Aaron: he plays the, the, like, like we've discussed, there's no like titular characters.

Aaron: There's no traditional protagonist, but his name is Evaristo Marquez and he Aaron: plays the character Jose Dolores.

Aaron: And just to go off his Wikipedia page, before being involved in the film.

Aaron: Like this is just from his Wikipedia page, so take it with a grain of salt.

Aaron: He was a herdsman and illiterate and he was approached, he was in three movies, Aaron: I think it was like extras after the film.

Aaron: Um, but he was his, you see, you think of that and then you watch the movie Aaron: and, you know, Marlon Brando talks about how, how much he loved working with Aaron: him, how, how great he was.

Aaron: And he basically said, like, he was, they tried to make him into a, Aaron: like, they tried to get him in movies and he went back to being a herd, a herdsman.

Aaron: Like that is the character of this man's films.

And there's actually a documentary, Aaron: a return to Algiers that Ponte Corvo did decades later about the filming of the battle of Algiers.

Aaron: So if you want me back, I haven't seen that.

Evan: So this is sort of unrelated, but just, I thought would be like a nice bow in Evan: the 1966 Academy Awards battle of Algiers was nominated for best international film.

Evan: It lost to a french film and i just i feel like that's just like a sorry guys you are not gonna slap.

Ward: In the face.

Evan: And it's also the only film to ever be nominated for academy awards in three Evan: consecutive academy awards it was nominated for the feature film in 66 i think Evan: uh screenplay in 67 and then best director in 68 which is crazy didn't win any of them.

Aaron: Yeah no it that the battle of Algiers has been absolutely mistreated by the Aaron: academy.

But then again, we're working class people.

Bill: Yeah.

Aaron: What do we care about?

Evan: The academy is a joke.

we, we, I.

Ward: Only care if we can use it to talk shit.

Bill: Yeah.

Exactly.

But like earlier tonight, I was talking about the house sinners Bill: got just absolutely shafted.

Bill: And Jackie's like, I've, she's like, you never care about this stuff.

Bill: I'm like, I only care because sinners got shafted.

Bill: I don't give a fuck.

I'm mad because I love this that's it I'm only because Bill: of that movie that's all like I.

Aaron: Well, you got to tell Jackie, this is fueling my fire right here.

Aaron: I already hated the Academy.

This is just giving me more reasons to hate me.

Bill: Yeah, exactly.

I'm so fucking-

Aaron: Why are you trying to rain on my hate parade?

Ward: Also, I love Andor.

So anytime Andor loses to Severance for the pit, Ward: I put off watching those shows for several months.

Bill: Severance is good.

Severance is good.

Ward: Well, it needs to stop winning over Andor or else I'm never going to watch it.

Ward: The ticker just keeps adding.

Aaron: Yeah i'm i'm grateful you all gave me the opportunity to be here i'm always Aaron: willing to come back uh bill knows how to hit me up maybe i'll get a yeah maybe Aaron: i'm a ghost actually i'll tweet.

Bill: But that's like it's like how at the end when it's like a hot word how do you know joy.

Aaron: Maybe next time I'll get an actual camera so you all see my face.

Evan: All good well Aaron I really appreciate you uh coming on and talking about this Evan: always important and also incredible film so much.

Aaron: Appreciated yeah absolutely this was great having me yeah.

Evan: And uh Bill and Ward we will uh catch everyone next time on left of the projector.

Bill: Have a good night, everybody.