>> Viktoria: Welcome to Worlds Collide, the podcast about moving abroad. I'm so glad that you tuned in again for a new episode. So today my guest is Tanya. She's this really incredible lady who is working with third culture kids and also is a tck kid herself. We talk about her own story and struggles of growing up as a third culture kid because she was growing up in this corporate family who had to move around a lot. So she's originally from Australia, where she is also at the moment. But also we talk about her moving abroad story in the past to Asia and also for her future in the United States and waiting for the paperwork. So it's all an incredible story. Definitely stay here to listen to the whole conversation. But before I let you listen to it, I just wanted to let you know real quick that there are a few ways how you can support the podcast. If you don't want to listen to it, then you just Skip forward like 20 seconds. All right, so there are a few ways how you can support the podcast. One is tell everybody about it. If you like this podcast, word of mouth is always the best way. How. Yeah, how to find a bigger audience. And then you can also subscribe, of course, then you will never miss an episode. You can also subscribe at the website worldscollidepodcast.com and I have also set up a, buy me a coffee. So if you feel extra generous, feel free to chip in whatever amount you feel comfortable and find the link in the show notes. So you can just buy me a coffee and what else? Yeah, of course. And then of course, like, you can give this podcast a five star rating if you like it. Wherever you listen to the podcast and all the apps. That would be awesome. All right, that's it. Thanks for staying with me. Here is now Tanya.

Tanya is originally from Australia and studied in China and Cambodia

My guest today is Tanya. How are you today?

>> Tanya: I'm great. It's a beautiful spring day here in Australia.

>> Viktoria: Oh, it's a spring day. See here it's fall. But it's always like my evenings here when I have guests from like that side of the country. So for me it's 9pm what time.

>> Tanya: Is it for you? 1pm, 1pm okay.

>> Viktoria: Oh, you already have in the middle of the day. See, I never know the time zones to Australia. Where in Australia are you?

>> Tanya: I'm in Canberra, the capital. Uh-huh.

>> Viktoria: And so what brought or like, where are you from originally?

>> Tanya: I am originally from Australia, but I've only been back for five years. I've only spent eight years of my adult life in Australia. The rest is in China, but also Cambodia.

>> Viktoria: Ah. okay. So what brought you abroad?

>> Tanya: I was studying. So I had done a major of Chinese and an Asian studies degree. And, part of that was spending a year studying in a Chinese university. And I thought I would go and do my one year study and come back and be a normal little corporate person. And instead I studied and I ended up the first time there for ten and a half years. Oh, okay. Six months in Cambodia, came back to do my masters in Australia, and then went back to China until the pandemic.

>> Viktoria: Okay, and, so was that, like, in the first year already that you decided to, to say, like, hey, this is going to be a little bit longer than I actually planned, or like, how come that it just happened to be like another 10 years?

>> Tanya: Well, the university where I studied was a language university, so it was the Beijing Language Cultural University. And half the school is Chinese people learning foreign languages and half the university is foreign students learning Chinese. So I was spending 40, well, 20 hours a week in the classroom learning Chinese with other foreign students and 20 hours a week on the homework to keep up with what was happening.

>> Viktoria: Oh, yeah, yeah.

>> Tanya: But everyone I was meeting were from all over the world with all these different life directions and life plans, different values, different, cultural quirks. And it was an incredible learning opportunity. But what it also did was it showed me that there were so many different ways to live and by know, three quarters, two thirds, even of the way through the year, I had this just sort of sense that I was at a crossroads. I could go back to Australia and live the life I always assumed I'd live, or I could spend some more time here and just see what else was out there. I didn't have a clear plan. I just knew that there's more, there's more out there in the world. And so I decided to take the leap of faith and I just jumped off the cliff without really a plan. I found an internship and I found. Then I found a job and. And then, yeah, it became my life.

>> Viktoria: Oh, wow. And did you stay the whole time in Beijing?

>> Tanya: mostly I was in Langfang for a couple of years, but that's, you know, an hour and a half drive up the road. I was in Beijing for, you know, or every weekend, basically for the time. So effectively I was in Beijing the whole time.

>> Viktoria: Okay.

>> Tanya: Parts of the city at different times.

>> Viktoria: Okay, Can I ask you, like, how you managed to find a, internship or then afterwards a job?

>> Tanya: Well, it was a lot different then to Now.

>> Viktoria: Right.

>> Tanya: The visa rules were way more flexible now. It would be almost impossible to do what I did.

>> Viktoria: I see.

>> Tanya: because, companies are not going to go through all of the work you have to do to get that visa for someone to just be an unpaid intern or a low paid internal. And it is like a lot of the visas and a lot of the jobs I did in that time would not be possible now. Those visas don't exist. Those jobs don't exist. And so it was, Yeah, it's part of why I don't live there anymore. The visa I was on before the pandemic, I doesn't exist anymore. Ah.

>> Viktoria: okay. So did you then go back before the pandemic?

>> Tanya: I was living in China when the pandemic started. and then I went to Cambodia, Thailand to do some work. I was an independent, educational consultant. I worked with international schools, mostly around Asia. And I went down to do some work, attend a conference and go to a couple of schools and the entire world shut down. And, it was supposed to be a three week trip turned into never going back. So I left on March 8, 2020. Things were pretty calm in Beijing at the time. but literally within days of me leaving all of Southeast Asia became problematic. I couldn't go to any of the events that were planned because they all shut down. The school shut down. China put in this mandatory three week quarantine in a government mandated facility. Yes, very comfortable about this. Then Australia is like, if you're coming home, come home now. And we're like, maybe you should go. And then on the 26th of March, China canceled all visas. And so I no longer had a work visa. I could not.

>> Viktoria: Oh, man. So that was not even planned for you?

>> Tanya: It was not planned at all. I'd already renewed my work visa. It was waiting for me to come pick up for the next year. And I. Okay, it. Yeah, it was canceled.

>> Viktoria: So you were not even, like, thinking about going back to Australia?

>> Tanya: We were planning to be there long term.

You've been married for two years and your immigration paperwork is taking time

>> Viktoria: Okay. And, how did you, Like, what was your reaction or how did you feel about that?

>> Tanya: Well, I went into a deep depression for 18 months is the short version. Yeah, it was really hard. I mean, it took me months to really acknowledge that I wasn't going back because we didn't know at the time that this was permanent.

>> Viktoria: Right. Okay. So it was like hanging in the air.

>> Tanya: They'll work things out. We gave ourselves because my husband was inside China and I was outside. And we don't share a Citizenship. And during the pandemic, really hard to move around. We went, okay, we'll wait until the end of June and if there's not a pathway back for you into Beijing by then, then we will like, choose to leave China. And, and, and then in middle of June, there was an outbreak of COVID in Beijing and we're like, well, that's it. It's not going to change anytime soon. And started making plans. So he ended up moving to the US which is his passport country, and we have been living in separate countries ever since. Working on immigration paper.

>> Viktoria: Oh, my God.

>> Tanya: That's the short version.

>> Viktoria: That's a short version. And there was m. Probably like a lot of back and forth and well.

>> Tanya: I'm not allowed in the US While my immigration paperwork's in process. So I went before we put the papers in for a couple of months. But even though I have that allows me a one year entry, they only gave me three months during the pandemic. So I was there for three months and then I had to leave. And he came out here for three months at 1 point, which is the maximum he's allowed in Australia. And then we met up somewhere else for a couple months. And that's it. That's the only times we've seen each other because we don't have the money to be going back and forth across the world.

>> Viktoria: And, and how, how long is the process?

>> Tanya: How long is the process or how long is the process supposed to be? Because those are two very different questions.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, both. Both.

>> Tanya: There was a problem with my Chinese police check. So that has been three years of delay. adjusted the problems with that document. So we've been in the process four and a half years. And three of those years were problems with that one document. so we're very close to being done. But.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: Yeah.

>> Viktoria: Oh, my God. But that is, like, hard. I mean, it's very hard. It's very frustrating.

>> Tanya: Yep. You were correct.

>> Viktoria: Yes. And because, And how long were you guys married in? before. Or like, how long have you been married before you started that process of the. I guess citizenship or green card?

>> Tanya: Yeah, two years. So we've lived longer than we've lived together. Married. Yeah.

>> Viktoria: Yeah. So you want to go to the US Then?

>> Tanya: Yes, that's the better place for us for a lot of different reasons. Obviously it's a hard situation at the moment. M. For other reasons. But that's where all of his family are and a lot of my closest friends. That's where we got married. and there's better opportunities for us in a lot of ways in the States compared to in Australia.

>> Viktoria: Okay.

>> Tanya: And yeah, it's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of reasons that have gone into it. But also Australia is the most expensive place in the world to get PR for your spouse. So there's that too.

>> Viktoria: What does that mean?

>> Tanya: The equivalent of a green card.

>> Viktoria: Ah, see, I did not know this. So this is probably like then like one big, one big point of like not choosing Australia then.

>> Tanya: Yeah, I mean if everything else made Australia the best place then, then we would work that out. But yeah, it's not. So the, the huge financial burden of it definitely. When there's not other reasons for it. Right.

>> Viktoria: And how much longer do you assume? Fingers crossed. Do you have to wait for your papers?

>> Tanya: Well, once they approve the documents, it should be quite fast. But they keep telling us things that are wrong with the documents, so we'll see. We would expect that I'm there within six months, but we've said that before. Okay, I see.

Getting a visa to live and work somewhere is quite difficult

>> Viktoria: So you don't want to jinx it.

>> Tanya: That we hope is difficult when you've been. Yeah. Having it go wrong so many times. So.

>> Viktoria: Right.

>> Tanya: You know, many times we've thought I'd already be there.

>> Viktoria: Would you, would you like, consider like trying to go to, I don't know, meet somewhere in the middle. Like where's in the U.S. i don't. Europe.

>> Tanya: I don't know. But then we'd both be paying really expensive flights to get there.

>> Viktoria: I mean like, let's say like we could. Why don't we both try to get I don't know, a visa for England or something.

>> Tanya: Yeah, except it's not that easy to get a visa to live and work somewhere. It's actually quite difficult. A lot of people assume that you can just go somewhere and you. And yeah, yeah, getting a visa to live and work somewhere is quite difficult. There are a few places that have now started, the digital nomad style visas.

>> Viktoria: Right.

>> Tanya: But you'd be going somewhere without any family support, any friends, any community. You'd be starting again from scratch. And ah, with. For my husband, no job. only my job will travel.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, because like also you have to have that job that allows it.

>> Tanya: Yeah, so my job travels, his doesn't. And yeah, so there's, it's, it's not as simple. Every, every possible solution has a whole bunch of problems that come along with. the other big issue is that now that I'M this far into an immigration process. If I pull out of this process, there's a good chance that I would never be able to re enter it and be able to get.

>> Viktoria: Also, like, you would feel like you wasted all that time.

>> Tanya: Yeah, well, it's not just the waste of time. It's the, the fact that it would count against me if I wanted to try again later. Oh, you're not really committed to wanting to be in this country, mind. And so there's, there's so many different considerations. It's not as simple as like, oh, you could just do this, you could just do that. there, there's, there's so many different elements wrapped up in these decisions. And it's true for not just us, but for so many families around the world. You know, there's, there's the sunk costs in time and money and everything else, but also all of these decisions for different families around the world. There are so many layers to them. Right. It's, it's not just the money, it's not just the location, it's family and it's work and it's where you feel safe. And there's so many elements to these decisions. They're so complex that everyone's case is going to be different.

>> Viktoria: That's completely right. and I mean this is also because like of your work you're doing, right? Because like you like work with this topic the whole time, like all day long for many years.

>> Tanya: Yeah, it's 20 years this month actually.

>> Viktoria: Oh, wow. Congratulations.

>> Tanya: Yeah. Ah, thank you.

I support globally mobile families, so people who are living between countries

>> Viktoria: Ah, so, so tell me about it. What is it exactly what you're doing?

>> Tanya: That's a great question right there. basically what I do is I support globally mobile families, so people who are living between countries, between cultures, and especially the children who grow up that way. So third culture kids, people who are living in a country that is not their passport country and that they don't have an intention to immigrate to, when they are children, but also when they're adults. looking back on those experiences, different times in my career I have done that as a consultant with international schools, training, training teachers, training parents, training students. I've done that as sort of a mentor and a coach, working directly with students and young adults and parents. I've done that as a researcher, I've done that as an author and yeah, lots of different roles over 20 years.

>> Viktoria: And it's called TCK training.

>> Tanya: TCK training is the company I work for right now. I'VE been there for four years. It's the best job I've ever had. And I research and international education there.

>> Viktoria: Okay, and what does it stand for? Tck.

>> Tanya: TCK is third culture kid. So a third culture between worlds. Uh-huh. And particularly for us, while our focus is third culture kids, so much of what we do I've found to be applicable across other spaces as well. So I just came back, the other week from a training working with second generation immigrant community and how to help bridge those cultural divides.

>> Viktoria: And do you do this, in. In Australia then?

>> Tanya: That one was in Australia, but mostly m. I'm working in Asia, occasionally in Africa, wherever the work takes me. Wherever, I'm okay and brought out to speak.

>> Viktoria: And you said that works with any culture or do you work specifically with one? One culture, you concentrate more on one culture? Like.

>> Tanya: No, we, we work globally and internationally. So I've worked in I think around 19 countries at this point. And. But mostly I'm working with intercultural communities. So I'm working with communities where there are people from a lot of different cultures who are living and working together. So I'm going into workplaces where you have people from different countries together, schools that have kids from 50 different countries attending together. I do work with different branches of the un where you've got people working together from across countries and families who are moving across national borders. So that is common for me. I've done mentoring with children and coaching with, with young people from a range of different national backgrounds. I've never actually worked in an Australian company. I've only ever worked cross culturally. I've worked in Chinese companies, American companies, and very culturally diverse workplaces. but never in an Australian work.

>> Viktoria: I see.

>> Tanya: And those international is the norm for me.

>> Viktoria: Right. So this is like mostly like for expat families kind of who then at some point saying like, okay, we're only here for like a few years and then we'll go back to our country or maybe we'll whatever.

>> Tanya: Well, some live for a long time in a country. But, living somewhere a long time doesn't necessarily mean that you have the power to immigrate and to stay.

>> Viktoria: Right.

>> Tanya: So there's a really big difference between the immigrant family who's like, we're moving to a new country and we plan to stay there.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: And that for me. So the word expat can be really problematic because it has all these colonial overtones. Right. But for me, the reason I think we need A differentiation in terminology, regardless of the words we use, is that there's a big difference between going, I'm going to go to this place and stay there and I'm going to go to this place to work, but I don't have the power to choose to stay. So sometimes the phrase migrant worker is used for that. And so I don't, I don't care which word we use as long as we can have a term that helps us understand the temporary nature of growing up or living in a place that you cannot call your own. So for example, M, my husband lived in Hong Kong and then China since he was 10 years old. Basically non stop.

>> Tanya: Was never going to be able to become a citizen. Yeah, okay. It was the only country that was home for him.

>> Tanya: But he had no pathway to citizenship or permanent residence. And so when the border closed, he had nowhere to go but to a country that was on his passport that he hadn't lived in since he was 10.

>> Viktoria: yeah, I see.

>> Tanya: And that for me is the difference for the third culture.

>> Tanya: And the expat or migrant worker, whichever terminology we're using is when you don't have the power to choose to stay.

>> Viktoria: So what are the struggles for those kids mainly? M. Or what do you focus on?

>> Tanya: So part of what we focus on is a balance of the struggle and the hope. We really believe that these international lives are worth living and that there are really good things that come out of it. But there are also specific, potholes in the road. There are specific struggles and if we don't recognize them, we don't address them and then they can become long term problems. So some of the long term problems we see are issues around identity and belonging. because you're always trying to fit in in these and living between these different cultures and learning these different ways of being and, and some, some TCK need some assistance to work through that sense of, well, who I am, who am M I between all of these places. Another one is that ah, in our research we've seen that TC case have higher rates of mental health concerns. we want to make sure that TCK's are receiving the support that they need to process the emotions they have. a lot of TCK research for a long time has shown that TCK's have a lot of grief experiences. That is, they're going through a lot of transition, they're saying a lot of goodbyes. Even those who are staying, in one place long term they're seeing other people come and go. Yeah. Or they're going on a holiday to see their grandparents and coming back like they're switching countries. There's, there's this nature of grief and goodbye and often disenfranchised or suppressed grief where we're not talking about those feelings, where we're sucking it up, we're putting on a happy face, we're pretending it doesn't hurt. And that, kind of unresolved emotion, unresolved grief, unprocessed emotion has a long term consequence. And so a lot of the work we do is in preventive care. What can we do for families living abroad to ensure that kids can thrive long term? And the latest research we released just a few weeks ago, actually it's almost exactly a month ago. the latest research we just released demonstrates very clearly that the paces positive childhood experiences have a dramatic impact on TCK's. When five to seven pieces are in place, we see a dramatic drop in rates of mental health concerns, a dramatic drop in negative perceptions of their childhood, a dramatic drop in a lot of the common TCK struggles. So these very simple preventive care elements make a difference. And, and that's what we're all about. We're all about equipping families to raise kids in a healthy way, no matter where they are.

Something as simple as feeling safe in your home can look different in different countries

>> Viktoria: Okay, and can you just do like one quick, ah, example? Like what? one positive way is to give your child that they have a better experience.

>> Tanya: Yeah. The positive childhood experience is part of why they're so exciting is they are very simple. There are things that often happen naturally in our life that we have to be a bit more attentional about if we're living internationally. So one of them is feeling safe and protected. In my home, there's an adult who protects me. I feel safe.

>> Viktoria: Uh-huh.

>> Tanya: The reason this can be a bit tricky internationally is what looks like safety can be different from country to country. Some of the kids I know growing up in China and Cambodia, they've grown up with walls around their compounds. There's guards, there's boom gates. There might be broken glass stuck in the top of the wall so people can't come over it. There's windows, things like that. Their parents look at that and go, I feel unsafe because we need all of these safety features. The child who's grown up that way looks at that and goes, this is how I know I'm safe. And so this family then moves to another country, like, say, Australia, where there's no fence at the front of the house. There's no bars on the windows. The parent goes, phew, I can relax now because I'm safe. And the child.

>> Viktoria: Right.

>> Tanya: Child's anxiety goes up because they're like, there's nothing here to keep me safe. There's no guard, there's no wall, there's no bars, there's no locks. Anybody get to me? And so something as simple as feeling safe in your home can look different in different countries. And if parents aren't intentional about it, their child may feel anxious in exactly the same place that their parent feels safe.

>> Viktoria: Ah, ah. Okay. So you kind of need to, go into the perspective of your child more.

>> Tanya: Yeah. And, and ah. So we do things like we teach parents to have really simple conversations. Like anytime you're in a new place, it could be a hotel room, it could be on holiday, it could be visiting grandparents, it could be moving to a new country, having a very simple conversation that you could have even with a two or three year old about, okay, let's have a look at this new place that we're staying in tonight. Here's where the safety features are. See there's a lock on this door, there's a lock on this window. there's a guard at the front desk of the hotel. Whatever it is.

>> Tanya: Tell the children what's there. And we say, once you've fallen asleep, mom and dad will make sure every window and door is locked before we go to bed. And you just make sure that the kids know, here's what the safety features are and the parents have it under control. The point is we want kids to have to not worry about safety because they know the parents have safety covered. If we talk about it, kids stop worrying. A lot of parents feel like if we talk about these things will cause worry. But for most children, talking about things actually alleviates worry because they know their parents have it under control.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, yeah. So, and is everything that you do, is it just for the mental health or is it also sometimes, more like the technicalities like here, this is how you prepare. I don't know the language that you're gonna change. Yeah. The logistics when you just move to a new country or something, or this is like how you should prepare for the culture.

>> Tanya: Yeah. Most of what we do is around emotional health and helping parents and children have a better connection and looking for the long term thriving. So we're not looking so much at, well, how do you find a house? we're looking at how do you thrive long term, how do you ensure that Your goals for your child are actually happening because so many parents have these goals of, we want to see the world with our kids. We want them to have this amazing experience. And so we're doing this research to go, okay. Of children who grew up this way. Which ones have had that amazing experience, and what's different about their experience that's caused that to happen for them? which children, you know, had some difficult things happen and still thrived and did really well. And we're seeing that paces make a really big difference there. PACES research is quite cutting edge in trauma research. ACES, research has been done for 30 years. PACES research, the first really big paper published on it was only 2019. So we're really ahead of the curve about this. This is really important research. And you're going to see more of this coming out in the next 10 years, I would say, in a lot of different institutions, because it is absolutely the future of trauma research. Our, focus is on ensuring that families have the best possible experience as they live abroad. And so much of that comes down to parent child connectedness.

>> Viktoria: Yeah. I mean, that is always, like, one of the most important things anyway, Right, to have a good connection to your child. Have, like, the safe place for your children.

>> Tanya: Yeah. The other thing we do is we train caregivers. So we train the people who are supporting families abroad. so a lot of organizations, they have, like, family support offices in missionary work. That's called member care. and so we train these people. They come and do certifications with us on how to care well for these families, how to put together a program of care, how to work with TCK as well. we have a training on counseling TCKs. What's different when you're working with TCKs as opposed to other people? And so we do a lot of training. The trainers.

>> Viktoria: Okay, so you mean with caregivers, like, for example, the au pair or the nanny or.

>> Tanya: No, people who work for the organizations who are sending people. Yeah. So, like.

>> Viktoria: Okay, yeah.

>> Tanya: So, like, for example, I've been working with some of the regional counselors at UNICEF offices or, the World Bank's family support officer, or the member carers at various mission organizations, international school teachers and counselors and principals, people who are caring for families while they live overseas or people who are sending families overseas.

You have two books about growing up overseas published

>> Viktoria: And is this also what your books are about? Because I, You have two books published.

>> Tanya: Yep, I have two.

>> Viktoria: Uh-huh.

>> Tanya: And, yeah, my. My colleagues at TCK training have another, I think, I don't know, half a Dozen between them.

>> Viktoria: Oh, wow.

>> Tanya: yeah, My first book came out in 2016, misunderstood the impact of growing up overseas in the 21st century. It is very much about understanding what it is like to be the person growing up overseas, how that impacts the way you see the world and all the different ways that this can happen. So what's the difference between attending a local school and attending an international school? What's the difference between living in one country overseas your whole life, or moving from country to country to country, or moving overseas for the first time as a teenager? What's the difference between being a missionary kid or a diplomat kid or a corporate kid? And, it's full of stories. I interviewed nearly 300 TCKs for this one, and about 100, I think more than 100 of them are quoted in the pages telling their stories.

>> Viktoria: Oh, wow. Okay.

You moved between Australia and the US as a child

So. So your background is also that you moved around a lot?

>> Tanya: Yeah, some of the kids that I work with.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: But, yeah, I, I moved between Australia and the US as, a child. my first flight, I was 15 months old going from Australia to the U.S. i basically started speaking in North Carolina in the U.S. wasn't there for very long though. We were back in Australia for all of my primary school and I started middle school in Australia. And then we moved to the States again, a different part of the country this time. And I did a few years in a local U.S. public school.

>> Tanya: And then came back to Australia for my last two years of high school. And Yeah. And then to China to finish my degree and.

>> Viktoria: Oh, I see. So. So this is like also like influenced heavily by your own experience? Because I was like, my first thought was, are you maybe your husband gave you also a big idea for the book?

>> Tanya: Yeah, I, I started working with TCKs in China, though I didn't know I was a TCK until I'd been volunteering in China for a couple of years. I just somehow didn't connect my experience with theirs.

>> Viktoria: Sure.

>> Tanya: And probably partly because a lot of people didn't acknowledge it either when I was growing up. You know, the corporate world really doesn't engage well with sort of social, emotional content. And what is a tck? like that's not part of the corporate packages.

>> Viktoria: And I bet it's mostly just focused on the person they are hiring. Right. And not the, not the rest of the family.

>> Tanya: They give the family logistical support like the house and the school and all of those things. And there's financial support, obviously, and the moving and the moving trucks and the companies. And everything, like all of that, everything that you need to, to physically move, some do some kind of transition support, some sort of counseling or something. But it's, it tends not to be very well tck. Informed in terms of the long term impact. Right. And the way it changes your identity, and the way you see yourself and see the world. And so I had no idea that there was such a thing as a tck. And I didn't know what re entry or repatriation was. And so it was 10 years after having returned to Australia as a teenager that I read about this thing called repatriation. And I found out that this is a thing that people go through. And I looked at this list and I went, tick, tick, tick, tick. That's what happened to me. And I had this revelation that there wasn't something wrong with me that I couldn't cope, that there was, you know, that I just was doing a bad job being a person when I returned to Australia. That this was a really normal thing that lots of people went through and it was incredible. That sense of you are not alone, it's powerful and it's a huge part of what we do is people realizing the things that you're finding difficult are so normal and you're going to get through it. And you know that because hundreds of other people have been through it before and they've got through to the other side. And here are some things that helped them.

You spent two years overseas and then returned to Australia with an American accent

>> Viktoria: And do you recall from your own experience or what your struggles were like reintegrating into Australia?

>> Tanya: One of the big ones was in the U.S. i stood out, right. I had an Australian accent. As soon as I opened my mouth, everyone knew I was the Australian girl. I went to a school, 2400 students, and I was the only Australian. And people found it cute and interesting. But there was also no grace for me to have cultural differences. And so I felt like I was always making these cultural faux pas that I didn't quite know what was wrong, but someone was upset with me and I didn't really understand why. And so when we were planning the move back to Australia, I spent months so excited to go back and just blend in and be normal and not have to worry about all of this stuff. And then of course we get back to Australia. On the first time I meet people, they're like, oh my gosh, you have such a fun American accent.

>> Viktoria: Oh yeah.

>> Tanya: And I got into Miss America because my accent is actually halfway in the middle, which is where it is most of the time. Honestly, it's somewhere in the middle. I've, I've gotten over it. I've gotten used to it at this point. this is the most Australian I've sounded for a while, probably. But, yeah, that, that was heartbreaking to realize that I wasn't just gonna slide back in and be normal.

>> Viktoria: So you are like, there you are Australian, but in Australia, you're American.

>> Tanya: Yeah. years later, decades later, my sister and I talked about this because we didn't talk about it as a family. We didn't, we all thought we were going through our own individual thing.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: Her American accent was even stronger than mine. And no one at school even believed that she was Australian. So she ended up stealing her passport out of the parents filing cabinet to take it to school to prove, see, I have an Australian passport. I'm Australian.

>> Viktoria: Oh, wow.

>> Tanya: It didn't stop the teasing, of course.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, no, but, but when people, she.

>> Tanya: Just wanted to prove it, your identity. And especially, when overseas you spent two, three years being having your Australianness thrown in your face and then you come back and people question that piece of you.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: That is something a lot of tcks go through. The other thing that was hard for me is everything just seemed harder than it should be. And what I know now is really common when you go through a big transition like that, your nervous system has to readjust because we're programmed to respond to unfamiliar stimuli. So when the sounds are different and the smells are different and the tastes are different, everything you hear is different. Your brain is constantly alerting, going, oh, is that safe?

>> Viktoria: Yeah. Yeah.

>> Tanya: And every time you move to a new location, that puts your brain on edge. And it takes a while for that to sort itself out. And that, long term stress of that has a lot of different physical, physiological and emotional consequences. And so, in about a year or so, I was fine. But there was a period of time there where I felt slow and behind the ball and not quite myself. And I thought, there's something wrong with me. And I just not coping. I just have to try harder. Where what I really needed was to relax and give myself a problem because my body needed space to be calm and to soothe. And I needed more sleep, I needed, my body needed to rest from all of this nervous system activation. I know that, I know how to do it now, but as a teenager.

>> Viktoria: Who didn't know, you don't know it. Right.

>> Tanya: Experience. Oh, I'm in Australia. It should be easier now. I just spent six months berating myself for why can't you do the things.

>> Viktoria: Do you expect this when you will go back to the U.S. oh, absolutely. I mean, obviously you're gonna stand out because you have an Australian accent, but also, like, to some other habits.

>> Tanya: Oh, I, I know it will be difficult. and that's okay. I'm, I'm so much more practiced now at giving myself grace and kindness of expressing my difficult emotions rather than burying them. It's not always easy, for sure, but I have more practice at recognizing when my body needs rest. And that's a huge part of it.

>> Viktoria: And I mean, it's also like, you're not, you're an adult now. Also, like, you have this huge background with this experience. So I guess, like, you already have like a different point of view. Yeah, but when you're a child, you don't know what's going on. And also, you don't have a choice.

>> Tanya: You don't have a choice. Yes, but also this is part of why this preventive care work is so important. Training parents how to have these conversations with their kids. Often when you go through a big transition as a family, the kids have huge need, the most emotional need they're ever going to have at the time that the parents have the least energy and capacity to give to their children. It is really hard. And coaching families through this, coaching parents through this, that again, there's nothing wrong with you. This is normal. Like, you need to not just try to power through, but instead, like, rest, give yourself space, take care of your own needs. Oxygen mask principle. You've got to take care of yourself so that you can take care of your kids. You need to be in a village. You can't do it all by yourself. Lean on the support of others. Right. Get people involved, all of these things. When we know that these principles are there, it becomes not a failure to need that support and help. It becomes, oh, standard normal. This is good parenting. And so many, like.

My biggest passion for working with parents is helping them overcome anxiety around parenting overseas

My biggest passion for working with parents is that so many expat parents carry a huge weight of anxiety, of stress, of even shame around their parenting overseas because they see the ways that, oh, this is harder, or, I don't know how this is going to turn out or how do I do this? I've got too many things to do and just being able to share stories of other people. And yeah, this is hard. And you've got this. So many parents who come for advice and I'm like, look at all these things you're doing that are the exact right thing to do and the Research tells you it's the right thing to do, can alleviate some of that anxiety. Yeah. And we've actually, we have a course on these positive childhood experiences and we made it free because this is something parents just need is to know what these seven things are, and how to implement them. You know, we just, this is the most fundamental thing that's going to help families. And so we just, we want everyone to have access.

>> Viktoria: Ah, that's great. That's great. So the website is tcktraining.com.

>> Tanya: That'S it.

>> Viktoria: Yeah. Okay. And then everybody can find all the information there and I make sure that it's also in the show notes for the listeners.

>> Tanya: That's lovely.

You recently published Australian Kids Overseas and what Comes Next

>> Viktoria: But let's go back to your books because I feel like we kind of drifted off. So I asked you about the books and then we like changed the subject somehow. So let's do the the misunderstood first.

>> Tanya: So I feel like I already talked about misunderstood. What else should I.

>> Viktoria: Yes, you already said misunderstood. And so. And where is it? You can buy it on Amazon. And also just for the, for the listeners. I put it also in the show notes. But you also just recently put published another book.

>> Tanya: Oh, that's right, yes. Thongs of Flip Flops. Australian Kids Overseas and what Comes Next. that came out last year co authored with Kath Williams, who is the TCK care coordinator for Missions InterLink, which supports, basically all the mission agencies in Australia. So she works with missionary kids who are Australian, going out from Australia and coming back to Australia. And she's amazing. So we worked on this book together to provide resources and support and stories for Australian families specifically because there are, yeah, special things that are different about the Australian context. And it was surprisingly cathartic for me. Like I've been doing this stuff for nearly 20 years and yet. And ah, literally writing it and doing the interviews and yet somehow putting it together and reading it all together, seeing other Australian TCKs having gone through some of the same things as me. Was. Yeah. It was so touching to be like, wow, other people really did go through. It's not just me. and it keeps us back to that.

>> Viktoria: Right.

>> Tanya: And even though I know it's not just me, theoretically there was something so different about these Australian stories that mirrored mine, so. Exactly.

So a big thing for Australians is moving across the equator to schools

So a big thing for Australians is most of the time Australian TCK is we're moving across the equator to schools that like we were just talking about you. It's fall for you, it's spring for me. Yeah. That also means the school years change. So the Australians, January to December.

>> Viktoria: Oh, yes.

>> Tanya: Oh, yeah, yeah. So when I changed from Australia to the US and back again, I mean, I'm also a corporate kid and you just get moved randomly when works for them. So, we got the call partway into a school year. So I'd finished grade eight, I'd started grade nine, so I had done the first term of grade nine and then I moved to the States and I did the last six weeks of grade eight there, did another, did all of grade one and half of grade 10 in the US and then moved back and started grade 11.

>> Viktoria: So, like, either you do double or you miss out.

>> Tanya: Yes, yes, yes.

>> Viktoria: And you always have that super long break and then you have again a long break.

>> Tanya: Half a year. Yeah. So you skip up half a year. Skip half a year. That's, that's what happens. And for Australian tcks, that's almost always the case because we're almost always going to a country that is in the Northern hemisphere. Yep. And it means that every time you move, like moving into Australia and moving out of Australia, you're going either, you're either leaving halfway through a school year or you're arriving halfway through a school year. And it's one or the other. You have to pick which one. It's like it's going to be one or the other. There is. So it interrupts your school year. And then you're always changing curriculum as well because you're in Australia, you're doing the Australian curriculum, which does not match up overseas. Like, there are no international schools doing Australian curriculum. That's not entirely true. There are a few schools doing Australian curriculum in primary school. I don't know of any that are doing Australian curriculum in high school. You can do, Australia is pretty well set up to do online schooling with the Australian curriculum. So if you want to do homeschooling, that is pretty easy to set up because Australia has for, for decades had the school of the air, which is radio school.

>> Viktoria: Yes, I remember. Yes. So.

>> Tanya: So if you want to do homeschooling, you can do Australian curriculum reasonably well, but that does not work for everybody. So if you're going to go into an actual school, you're almost always going to be. You're always going to be changing curriculum too. And the curriculums do not always match up. So that I also did. I changed curriculums and in all of my changing back and forth, I ended up 18 months behind in mathematics when I got back to Australia. The end result being I didn't finish high school maths. As someone who's always been quite bright and good at maths, that was devastating.

>> Tanya: It made me feel stupid. It could have been done differently, but so many things went wrong at so many different points. Like when I first arrived in the States, I only had six weeks in that school and I was never given a proper assessment of where I was up to in the curriculum. The only assessment I was walked into a classroom and they said, have you done this before? And I said no. And they said, great, this is your class.

>> Viktoria: oh, okay. So nothing, Nothing.

>> Tanya: Absolutely nothing. And it turned out I was in completely the wrong level. when I arrived at the new school the next year, next school year, because that was the last six weeks of grade eight and then you move into high school in grade nine. So it's a new school. I've been put in a level. I look at the textbook and go, I know absolutely everything in this. And long story short, they refused to move me into the next level. So. So I repeated an entire year of content I already knew.

>> Viktoria: Oh no.

>> Tanya: Yep. Because a couple months earlier someone had walked me into a classroom and just assigned me a level almost randomly.

>> Viktoria: Ah, yeah.

>> Tanya: Redoing songs or flip flops and finding out that so many others had had these similar experiences was really. Yeah, because I think I'd always felt like, well I sort of should have said something. I mean I was 13, what could I.

>> Viktoria: No, you're not gonna say something. Like, I mean now you would say something.

>> Tanya: Yeah. But coaching families who are going through these issues. Brazilian families go through these issues a lot. They have a very similar issue with Australia. Like they have the offset school year.

>> Viktoria: Sure. okay.

>> Tanya: And so you always have to either go up or go down. They are almost always forced to go down because people go, well, you're going to struggle with the curriculum, you're going to struggle with the language. There are so many Brazilian TCK's I've met who don't finish high school until they're 20 because they keep being forced down a half a year and, and then they get, maybe they go back to Brazil and they're not prepared to finish to do the end of school exams in Brazil because the curriculum hasn't prepared them for it. And so then they have to go back another year or so to do the catch up work so they can be able to complete the exams which allow them to enter university.

>> Viktoria: Ah man, this is so frustrating.

>> Tanya: Yeah, it is. And they're the kind of decisions that unless you have someone to sit you down years in advance to think through the process, there's nothing you can do about it. And unless you have parents who are going to go to bat with an education system that is against them, you're never going to be able to change this. So I actually at one point I worked with a Brazilian family who were trying to get their daughter moved up. They said that she's in a class, that, that she's 18 months older than her peers and she's a sweet kid, she's getting along with them, but like she's. They're not her friends because they're not her peers. They're too much younger.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: And yes, we know she's not really academically ready in English for that level, but we will pay for tutors. We will do what it takes.

>> Viktoria: So like when you're a child, you pick up, quick. Yeah.

Repatriation into Australian culture is really hard. But this is happening around the world constantly

>> Tanya: She's done her final years of high school yet. It doesn't count yet. Like, let's put her in a class where she'll be happy, work on the English and the, you know, because she's smart enough. She just, it's just the English, it's not her academic capacity.

>> Tanya: Like, yeah. And, and worked with both the school and the parents had asked for advice. And so I got to work and mediate with them to come to a, to a solution that what everyone was going to be happy with.

>> Viktoria: Okay.

>> Tanya: But this is happening around the world constantly and it's really hard.

>> Viktoria: Okay. so you're also mediating between, in between parties to find, like occasionally when I asked you.

>> Tanya: Yeah, yeah, I get asked for advice a lot. So I do consultation calls with parents or with schools where they get to come and talk through what's going on in their situation because they need someone specialized who knows exactly how these things work. And it's hard sometimes to find an outside person who gets what you're going through.

>> Viktoria: Mm.

>> Viktoria: And. But wait, so this is also what you discuss in thongs or flip flops.

>> Tanya: So thongs or flip flops? Yeah, we discuss all of these issues for the Australian families, like. Okay. And crossing years and what it's like coming back into Australian culture because it's really hard. Repatriation into Australian culture is really hard. And, and so the whole thing is like a guidebook on how do you, as an Australian who was raised outside Australia, how do you wrestle with your identity, what it means to be Australian, how do you, you know, find your place in Australian culture without having to pretend you're not who you are, without letting go of all those experiences that have made you who you are.

One of the things I love best is that we had a bunch of different people share

One of the things I love best is that we had a bunch of different people share their experiences of what being Australian means to them and when they feel the most Australian. And several people said, actually it's when I have debates and when I disagree with other Australians. Because this is the only country where I have the right to have these opinions and share what I think. Because, you know, I lived in Cambodia for a long time growing up, but I don't have the right there of a citizen. Yeah, I get to vote here. I get to have a say here. I'm a citizen. And so it's not about me trying to fit in. I get to have my say and be part of things here. And so even when I disagree with the mainstream or I disagree with the politics or I disagree with people, that's part of me being Australian. And I loved that. I love that. I think that's. Yeah, but yeah, integrating everything is. Realizing my differences is part of what makes me belong here. I love that.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, yeah, that's nice. So this book is also available on Amazon and everywhere else.

>> Tanya: Yeah. Okay.

>> Viktoria: All right, so also in the show notes you will find a link to that one too.

There were a lot of things that were difficult for me, but also everyone's experience

and from your own experience, going back to that school, school experience, was it harder for being always like torn apart from people you just met, the friends, or was it just because of the curriculum, because of learning?

>> Tanya: There were a lot of things that were difficult for me, but also everyone's experience is different. My next sister down had an amazing experience living in the U.S. she loved it. She loved her friends, she loved the school, she loved the community. and she really didn't want to leave. And she actually went back multiple times to visit, went to her friend's wedding, like maintain those connections for a long time. Everyone's experience is different, even within the same family because there's so many different factors. For me, I think part of the issue was my transition through different kinds of schools really was disruptive. the fact that I only had six weeks in a school because I came in late. So they had, they had three months in the school before the summer holidays. I had six weeks coming in late like that. I only had six weeks in a school, then changed schools. so I really didn't start. I only had 18 months really of being in proper schooling, between all of the summer holidays and the different transitions and stuff. so I Didn't. It took me a long time to get settled, but also I was older. And so by the time I really got settled into that school, I was 14. And there's an expectation that as a teenager, you know, the cultural rules. And so if you break the cultural rules, that you're doing it on purpose. To be a rebel or to be a smart ass. Yeah, to, you know, be disrespectful. And so I think for my younger sisters there was a little bit more flexibility and freedom of, being told and given some grace around things. Things like I, my younger sister being in primary school, they said the Pledge of Allegiance.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, they do that.

>> Tanya: That was part of this. in high school you only did it every now and then, like when there was a big assembly in my school. But her teacher told her, look, I know you're not American, so you don't have to do this. She chose to do it anyway because she didn't want to stand out. But. But she was given that piece of understanding.

>> Viktoria: Right.

>> Tanya: Which I.

>> Viktoria: Yes.

>> Tanya: I actually had friends get mad at me because I didn't say the Pledge of, Okay, like, why would you not do that? That's so rude. Not understanding, like, but it's not my flavor.

>> Viktoria: It's also probably. You don't know the words. I, know. But in the beginning you don't know.

>> Tanya: I mean, you learn the words pretty quick because you hear it. No, no. The first time, I absolutely had no idea. first couple of times. But this sense of them feeling that I, it was a betrayal for me, that it was rude for me not to do that, with no one to say otherwise. I had a friend from Northern Ireland who, she said the pledge, with hand on heart, because she didn't want to make other people mad. And I just couldn't do it because I'm like words. I think because I'm a writer especially words are so meaningful. I couldn't say words.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: I just couldn't do it.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: I'd usually just. I'd stand up to be respectful to them, but like, I wouldn't say it. And other things, like, I was used to a very different dynamic in the classroom between teacher and students and it would get me in trouble sometimes. that teachers thought I was. Yeah. That I was disrespecting them when I wasn't intending that at all.

>> Viktoria: I see. Yeah.

>> Tanya: And so I felt every day at school I was in a very anxious state, trying to be good, trying to be accepted, which made everything feel harder.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: I was trying to work out the social rules with friends, with the classroom, and everything just felt hard. and I think it's part of why it was so disappointing to come back to Australia and it not just be easy. Yeah. because I think life isn't ever just easy, but you get that idealistic idea that this is all going to get solved by changing countries. Sometimes we. We leave our passport country with this idea of escaping.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh-huh.

>> Tanya: But, yeah, I think for me, it was just the general stress of life and no one seeming to recognize that I was coping with an additional layer of stress. Now, add to that the fact that I'm autistic and I was not diagnosed at the time. I didn't get diagnosed till I was nearly 30. And so it was harder for me to read those social cues.

>> Viktoria: Yeah.

>> Tanya: And so you've got another layer of feeling misunderstood and of struggle. so I had these multiple layers of things that were wrong or things that were happening that no one saw, these invisible, struggles that I was working through. And, yeah, I found it really hard. And for a long time, I took it out on the country and was like, Americans that, okay, I don't like America. I don't like Americans. After I came back, I didn't feel that way in the US as much. I felt it after I came back. I wanted to blame all of my struggles and all of my hardships on that experience. I'm just going to put it in a box and just say that place was the. And then, of course, I moved to China, and I ended up making some really delightful friends from the US and go, well, this doesn't.

>> Viktoria: This doesn't end up, connect.

>> Tanya: I'm gonna have to process through what actually happened. And then I found the TCK literature, and I had words, I had vocabulary, had stories to explain why I had struggled. And it opened the box to processing it. And that's, something I really believe in. I really believe that so many of us have had these experiences that we don't have language to explain. But when someone gives you that language, it allows you to sort through the hard things so that you can lean into the good things. Because I learned a lot in that time, too. I had great experiences, too.

You went to a rough public school where nobody was nice to anybody

I had some really kind, lovely friends. I had friends that were so lovely and kind, in fact, that it confused me. As an Australian who went to a rough public school where nobody was nice to anybody. I was like, why are these people being so nice to me? Like, it was not all terrible. But I couldn't really see that until I'd processed the heart.

>> Viktoria: Okay. Yeah.

All right, so our time is coming to an end. But this was super insightful. Thank you very much

All right, so our time is coming to an end. But this was super insightful. Thank you very much.

>> Tanya: You're so welcome. I've enjoyed chatting with you. Yes.

>> Viktoria: Because. Because I also have children who are. Who are about to move abroad, so. So we'll see. So this is very, good to know, Oh, good to know what to expect. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. And what to do.

>> Tanya: Well, if you ever have questions, you know, you know how to contact me and ask. And if any of you. I will.

>> Viktoria: I will.

>> Tanya: We have an email at, infoctraining.com and we are always here to answer questions from parents to put you in the right direction with anything that you need.

>> Viktoria: Yes. And I wanted to add, too, that you guys also work in different languages. I saw there's German, Portuguese, Spanish, and.

>> Tanya: A little bit of Mandarin. We have a few resources in Mandarin as well.

>> Viktoria: Yeah. So this is very helpful for other people who, are struggling with English. So, I think that's a really important info information there.

>> Tanya: We also have a list of tck, informed counseling and educational support services, and a lot of them have multiple languages as well, which we've labeled on our resources page.

There are ways you can support the podcast if you stayed for so long

>> Viktoria: Awesome. All right. All right, then again, thank you very much for being here. Thank you for taking. Yes, thank you for taking the time.

>> Tanya: My pleasure.

>> Viktoria: Yeah, that was Tanya's incredible story. So check out the show notes if you find out more about her work, about her books, and about herself. So there are links where you can just click on and then you will find it. There are also the ways down there in the show notes how you can support the podcast if you stayed for so long. Thank you. I appreciate it so much. Yes, I would love to hear from you. If you want to be a guest on the show, check out the website worldscollide.com and. Or send me an email worldscollide123mail.com to reach out to me. Of course, if you have any other questions or comments as well, I'm always here to listen and I would love to hear back from you. Oh, yeah. And then also there's one more way. so if you are following me on the socials. Yeah, if you want to, you can definitely share the posts so more people see it, more people will get to know the podcast. That would be awesome. All right, thanks for this. Next week. Wow. Next week is already Thanksgiving. All right, see you soon. Bye. Bye.