So you're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Like romantic love, we write songs about it, TV shows and books and endless appreciative social media posts.

Like romantic love, we know it's good for us, helps us live longer, stay happier, makes us more connected, provides us scaffolding for our lives to climb and grow alongside.

Friendship is meant to be one of the less complicated loves of our lives.

Just ask Carrie Bradshaw about that, and friendship is one of its great choice.

But also, like romantic love, friendship can break our hearts, keep us awake at night, whip us into an indignant I told you so frenzy, confuse us, and leave us questioning what we've done, said and endured.

I'm Holly Wainwright and I am Mid.

Welcome to Mid, the show for gen X women who are anything.

But you might know already that on this season of the show, we are talking through your dilemmas, and up until now I've caught up some very clever people to talk through your questions on everything from weight and tweakments to divorce and dating and now today friendship.

How does it feel if your best friend suddenly ghosts you?

Can you cold call an ex best friend?

What do you do if the person you've shared so much with the years suddenly seems to believe in everything you don't?

And can we blame our hormones for being a shitty friend?

This week, I'm joined by a very smart psychologist called Claire Row to help us chew over these questions.

Claire is the leading Australian psychologist.

She's also a speaker and a writer, and as you're going to find out on today's show, she also has a friendship breakdown story of our own that is kind of astounding.

It's the only word I can find for it.

Before we get into this episode, though, I need to tell you that this is the last step set of season six.

Ad mid We're going to be back in a couple of months with an absolute doozy of a season seven.

We're working on it now and we're going to come back to big conversations with truly incredible grown up women, and my god, you're going to love it.

I can't wait to tell you about some of the people we've got lined up.

But until then, hold my hand and let's jump into some sticky friendship problems with Clavro.

I get so many friendship questions and stories.

I feel like it's an area of our life that we know is so important and we get so much from our female friends, but also can sometimes be a bit fraught.

And yeah, I always say that I think that friendship breakups and friendship problems can be just as painful as romantic ones.

One hundred agree, one hundred percent.

I mean they, Oh, I know from personal experience, they can be messy and painful and complicated and drawn out, like drawn out ghosting, and there's no big fight sometimes and there's no mixtape crying in that way, and sometimes a lack of closure and confusion.

So absolutely, you know, best friendships ending can be really painful.

Yeah.

Absolutely, So let's jump into some of the dilemmas that the mid listeners center about friendship.

Okay, I want to get back together with my ex best friend, so our listener writes, I used to be exceptionally close with a woman I met through work when we were both in our early twenties.

We used to spend Christmases together.

I live away from my family, holiday together, even shared an apartment once.

I could never have imagined that we would split up, but we did.

Our life circumstances changed.

She had kids before me, she was in a relationship with a man I didn't really like, and we sort of drifted apart and.

Then fell apart.

Now, more than ten years later, I find myself thinking about her and missing her a lot.

It seems like such a waste to know someone so well and then to not be in each other's lives.

I would love to see if we can record style and be in each other's lives again, But every time I think about reaching out, I'm really scared to do it.

She might be really angry with me, she might not be interested in seeing me.

And also, what would it even look like to be friends again so many years on?

Should I just accept this friendship is in the past.

Dear thing.

I love this one because, just as we were saying, I think it speaks to this quiet grief that a lot of people experience with the loss of friendships that can be just as painful as romantic relationships.

And I think, particularly when we get to mid life, you know life has pulled us in so many directions with careers and partners, marriages, divorces, kids, aging, parents, hormones, and and sometimes we wake up and we hardly realize that friendship's gone, but suddenly it has, you know, it's time goes past.

You're suddenly like, we haven't spoken in month, month, and then it feels too long, and then.

Yeah, yeah, so I think, I mean, this is more of nostalgia than what she's describing.

It's more of a longing, isn't it.

And that's more of unfinished business that obviously she did value that friendship and perhaps it could play a role in her life.

Now reaching out is really scary.

I mean I think absolutely why not, because at the end of the day, you'll get an answer either way.

I mean, you might not get any response.

You might get a cold response, but you also might get a really warm Oh my gosh, I've been thinking about texting you and I haven't.

Oh, that was such a nice surprise.

I'd love to see you, and you know, you don't need to go into that with any expectations beyond hey, I've been thinking about you.

It's been so long.

Would you like to have a coffee and leave it at that and see what happens, and will it be exactly the same?

I know that person said, you know what, will it even look like?

It may not be the same, but it may be great and adult like and different and better.

Who knows.

I think that sometimes people are scared if you're someone who's very uncomfortable with confrontation.

A lot lots of women are I mean not all.

Of course, but a lot us.

Yeah, you're scared that what if she's angry?

That's one of the things they said, like, what if there's a scene, what if there's a drama, what if she says things that will hurt me?

Like it sounds scary, but is this just a case of like you just got to pull on your big girl pants and be like, well, maybe that will happen.

Well, we have this negativity bias in our brain to always think the worst in every situation because that's very protective.

Means we don't take action and so we don't get hurt.

But also we're sitting here without a friendship that potentially is great.

So it's always that that case of yeah, it looks she could be angry.

Like I'm not going to deny that.

I don't tell people, no, everything will be great and she'll definitely don't know, but what if she's not, And so that's what you've got a way up.

But obviously this friendship was really valuable to this person, and so potentially it's worth that risk of an angry message coming back.

But then she has her answer as well, Okay, we're not in the same headspace, she's angry.

I'll leave it there.

Okay, text message is okay in this situation.

Oh, As someone who also doesn't like confrontation.

Probably yes, I think you've been thinking about you, like something honest, Yeah.

Because I don't like the cold call in general.

And if this hasn't been these people haven't been speaking for years.

I don't know you've caught a mid kid pickup, Paul.

It could be a call, but that should be the first.

I think a text is a good way to start.

Yes, and yeah, I've been thinking about you.

You know it's been ages.

Let's have a coffee.

Do you think it's possible for friends to get back together.

Yes, yeah, Yes, I've had a friendship that's that's gotten back together.

Have you a childhood friendship into say our early twenties life pulled us apart for no reason.

I mean, there wasn't a conflict there as it happens I think in many people in midlife.

Facebook is great.

And it came up as a friend's suggestion in our early thirties, and there I was trawling through all she's had kids and all she looks the same, and reached out as the friend request.

So that was the first you know, that's very non confrontational friend request was accepted.

And then now we're back in contact.

That's great.

Yeah, And another just had a reason for that.

I mean, when we met up, it was like, oh gosh, I have no idea what happened.

It was just it was so I traveled and then I got married, and then you did this, and oh gosh, we've missed out on all this time and now we have to catch up and our kids have met and great, oh, how wonderful.

I like that.

All right, listener, you've got an answer there.

Okay, this is a good one.

Blaming Perry for being a shitty friend.

One of my good friends has started being really awful, cutting comments, angry outbursts, teary nights out after too much wine.

I think you know where I'm going with.

Both Perry, menopausal I swear, But after a particularly nasty moment where she told me she thinks I'm an over indulgent parent and that I need to get over my ex, I asked her to stop speaking to me like that, and she broke down, saying that it was hormones and she didn't know who she is anymore or what's wrong with her.

She said she's getting help with that, but there's a bit of me that can't forgive or forget what she said.

I think Perry is an excuse, and she really thinks these things about me.

Do I walk away the good old it's not me, it's my hormones excuse.

Like people used would before we could blame hormones.

We might be blaming the wine.

You sometimes be like I was drunk when I said that, And I always think that that means you think.

It, and that's I absolutely believe that.

I think that hormones might amplify volume like wine can exactly the same.

But I don't think that they write the script.

And so if your friend, in that moment, after a few wines and yes hormonal, has come out and said, you know, comments about your parenting and get over your ex, I kind of think that that's what they are thinking.

And look, I think midlife friendships particularly are great because they do in the end there's space to be really honest with them and be able to say no, that really hurt me, and have them a bit more intentional and authentic.

Twenty one year old might have me certainly just kind of stewed on that or sucked it up.

But I think you know, when friendships are a little bit more intentional, we can call that out.

And look, this friend did kind of crack and say, oh, I'm really sorry, and she didn't double down.

I mean, she did acknowledge that was pretty shitty behavior.

But I do think that, yes, it's kind of amplified what they really think.

So I guess this comes down to the history and how much you value that friendship, but also how many times this occurs.

And look, if she is getting help whatever that looks like.

I'm not sure whether that be know hormone replacement therapy or or whether that be some psychological therapy or great do it all.

But then it's kind of waiting to see how that shows up.

And I I love the expression two things can be true at once.

You know three or four things, multiple things can be true at once, but you can have compassion for someone and you know, boundaries, even though I hate that word.

It's so cliched, but even the psychologist hates the word boundaries.

But you can.

Yeah, but you can.

You can have boundaries, and I would I would kind of tread with caution.

Forgiveness does not mean you pretend it didn't happen.

Yeah, that's interesting because also, you know what I think, sometimes it's like when the when the mask slips and someone does tell you something that you don't want to hear, whether it's true or not.

She maybe she is an over indulgent parent, maybe she does need to get over X.

Well maybe not, or maybe on some days yes and some days no.

But sometimes I think, what doesn't really matter that you think that, Like we all think all kinds of things about each other, but I still like you, and I'm still we're still friends, and you know what I mean, I guess it depends how much that hurts you, like how serious it is, you know what I mean?

Yeah?

Yeah, absolutely, And also we should get to the point of maturity in friendships where I mean, my best friend would have criticisms of me.

Like friends to keep them to keep their criticisms to themselves.

Please, Well that's true, it doesn't actually come out and say yeah, I'm sure she does have criticisms of me as I do her.

So so yes, we don't want friends that think we're perfect.

Yeah, so I totally agree.

The mask has slipped.

So it comes down to the individual person and saying, well, look, I know they think that of me.

Now is that going to impact now the time we spend together.

Yeah, well it will if we keep having ones and it keeps coming up, it will impact our girls night.

But if it doesn't and it stays there is a kind of one occurrence, I don't think that that's reason to walk away.

You would advise our listener, though, to tell her friend that how much it hurt her, like in a more neutral setting, like you think, you know when you said before, if your friendships are going to be authentic, we're old enough to kind of be able to say, hey, that really did hurt me.

Yeah, And that comes back to the confrontational piece, doesn't it.

You know, once the winds have worn off, people go, oh, let's just leave that there.

But if she hasn't done that after that night, you know, in a sober way, in a more neutral sense.

I think she should reiterate it absolutely.

But you know, as I said, I think that that's one of the beauty of you know, more mature adult friendships is that we can say that really hurt me, and the person can you know, needs to show that she can reflect on that and respect you know, those kind of boundaries that you know, it really hurt that you think that of me.

So yeah, she needs to call that out in a neutral setting and then just kind to proceed with caution.

As I said, forgiveness doesn't mean you forget it.

It happened.

Proceed with caution, and let's just see whether that friend can be a bit nicer in the future.

I like that, proceed with caution because if the friend is really I mean, you know, and many of us know how tough hormonal outbursts can be, Like sometimes you really do feel like you're not yourself.

Yeah, And I.

Have had at times in the over the little past few at times when I get I have got unnecessarily upset about something in front of people that afterwards I'm mortified about.

Not I haven't insulted, nothing like this, but you know, in a professional setting, in a personal setting where you just overreact and it is your hormones.

And then but you feel like you feel really like you feel sort of shame about it and being like, I'm really sorry, I really overreacted to that, and I do feel a bit outside myself.

I wonder, you know, like it isn't an excuse and get out of jail free card, but you kind of I think it's fair enough to own it, right, Well.

That's the difference.

I think she's got to own it.

And as I said, this friend did crack in that way and she didn't double down.

And yeah, I know as a psychologist that that perimenopause, menopause can affect sleep, mood, even parts of personality, as it can our our you know, teenage girls and other hormonal stages, and we do have outbursts that are more intense, you know.

Then mismatched they to the situation.

And maybe that was the final story of a long day for that friend who dealt with teenage teenagers in their house and their aging parents calling them and her boss at work, and then that was it.

The over indulgent parenting friend was her line.

But that's the difference.

She's got to own it.

She's got to say that was completely inappropriate, which it sounds like she did.

Yeah, you know, and that she's getting quote help, So see where that goes.

Okay, up next, Claire's got some thoughts on how to navigate friendships when you're both on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

I can't stand my friend's political opinions.

I have an old high school friend who I see a few times a year, mostly at friends' birthdays in some of barbecues, that kind of thing.

We have lots of mutual friends.

The thing is, I find it increasingly hard to be around her because of her very outspoken political opinions, which are really different to mine.

I had to mute her on social media because I was just getting upset about the things she was posting.

But then that's awkward because sometimes when I see her, she asks me if I saw them after a couple of drinks.

It was a common theme.

She always wants to have.

A debate about the state of the world that I know I will find upsetting.

A lot of my friends just roll their eyes and say that's just how she is.

But everything she thinks and feels and wants people to agree with her about are the opposite of my values.

I don't want to fight with her, but I don't want to stand by and let her go unchallenged.

Do our distance myself from the whole group?

Do I say I can't go if she's going to be there, or do I say we just can't talk politics?

This is the problem of our age, it really is.

This is really common.

So to just comment broadly on this, I mean, I'm just yeah, I get pretty down when I think of just that polarization piece of when it comes to politics, and if someone doesn't agree with our view these days, we do have a tendency to slice them off, card them out, like that political view is one hundred percent of their identity and it's not.

It's funny because you're right that I think that we're much more likely to jump to sort of cancel a friendship these days.

We don't agree.

It depends a little bit how deep the issue is for you, you know, like how how very important it is for you.

And if if you are deeply politically engaged or invested in a particular cause or something, and someone else belittles it or dismisses it or whatever, then I can understand how that changes your perception of that person a bit.

You're like, you're not quite who I thought you were.

I think that's fine.

But what I think I hear in this dilemma, and it's quite familiar to me because obviously part of my job is to spout off about stuff and then sometimes on podcasts and the like, and then sometimes I'll be at a barbecue in a completely unrelated setting and someone will decide that that would be really great to come and have a row with me about whatever, you know, like climate change or something, and I'm not in them, like, that's not what I'm there for.

Those someone wanting therapy for me, and it's like that I'm not interested in that.

In my personal life that I have some very good friends who I know we disagree on some quite big things, and to be honest, I do avoid it.

I do avoid those things because.

I don't if we get into it, it's going to be so we just don't.

But you can maintain that friends, yeah, but I can maintain the friendship.

And then I have other friends who I love getting into political debates with, you know, and we would do that for fun.

But the difference is how they donate it, right, it's how they do it, how informed they are, how lightly or not lightly they take it.

I was at a dinner recently where somebody came over to talk to me about a particular issue, got and then didn't like what I said about it.

When she poked me on it, got up and left the dinner.

You've got like a lot of different people who don't normally hang out together.

It's like, let's not talk about this stuff in this situation.

You know, that was my take.

Anyway, I feel like it sounds like our listener is kind of trying to play the let's just not talk about it, but the other person is seeing it a sport and likes to talk about it.

If you are going to talk politics, Like you said, it's about having absolute, respectful discussion and not calling someone an idiot because they don't understand and bolittle them.

And I think that's probably what's happening, and shoving it down someone's throat or I think she said, you know, getting annoyed when the friend doesn't get the room to agree with her.

Well, that's not debate, No, you don't just you know, have a dummy spit when people have a different opinion or don't agree, And I think you know, those friendships can be really intense and overbearing, And as you said, it depends on what the issue is.

If it's really misaligned with your values, I think it's probably a good self care option to just mute her on socials if that is all she's posting about and it really is making your blood boil every time you open the app, just just mute that.

I think that that's probably an adult like response.

I don't think you need to back away from the whole social group.

She's saying that she'd I just leave that friendship group.

I think that that would be a more immature response.

I think you can decide where your energy goes in a group who you sit next to, you know, I think you can be closer to sum in the group and distance from her without withdrawing completely.

Yeah, I like I like that.

I like you saying you can decide where your energy goes in a group, because when you're in a she says, you know, they usually get together at birthdays and suber barbecues.

There are often lots of people there, and you can choose broadly, like who you want to hang out with in that group, and maybe you just always seem to just be edging away from this person, like she's coming over, Like.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, definitely, But I think that there's that happy medium between this person sounds like they are, you know, just that after a few whines again badgering, kind of shoving it down your throat and not reading the room.

And so I'm I'm kind of agreeing with the listener.

That sounds annoying.

But at the same time, we've got to just you know, put our big girl pants on and be adults and try and work on her own uh you know, reactions in tonally to that person.

As she said, the rest of the group roll their eyes.

How can we try and get a little bit closer to that type of Nonchalantah, here she goes again.

Oh well, you know it's not my views.

That's okay, walk away.

But that's what you've got to assess in the friendship.

Yes, in terms of like, all right, they have this view that's completely diametrically opposed to my view on the world.

There, but ninety nine point nine percent of this person otherwise is great.

Yeah, you know, they add a lot of value to my life when we don't talk about politics.

You know, it's great we have all these interest in common, tis you know a great person otherwise, and adds that you know, it's a very valuable friendship otherwise.

So it's that kind of assessment.

But if you think they're really not adding any other value, they actually just pissed me off and annoy me because all they do is talk about, you know, politics.

Then you don't have to push all or work hard at a friendship to maintain that.

But also don't feel like you have to be the one to slink away and turn down invitations and not attend the group.

No, go and attend the group, but just you know, and somewhere else.

I've got a couple of little quick ones if you're comfortable to do them.

My friend never replies to my messages.

We get on great when we see each other, but she leaves me on red all the time.

It's really beginning to upset me.

Sometimes I'll message her about quite serious or personal things and she doesn't really reply in a timely manner.

She always says it doesn't matter how frequently real friends communicate, But I think it's rude.

I've spoken to her about my feelings and nothing changes.

Do you think sometimes we have different communication styles to our friends.

Yes, and that kind of friendship survived that.

Oh look, it depends what you're messaging about, doesn't it.

Because I've absolutely got friendships where you know, my closest friends.

I mean, if we're just sharing a funny anecdote of our day or memes or you know, funny photos or chit chat and they don't get back to me, like, totally cool that we've all Actually, my closest friendships are are single mothers like me, so and running our own businesses and no, no, no, there is zero expected so our communications I was really aligned.

And so we get that as our expectations of each other is that we won't reply for days and days and then we'll reply.

We'll have a flurry.

Yeah that's right, and we're all on the couch at the same time on the chat, so that's totally fine.

I also have other friendships where they can come into my life after years, and I've had that, you know, months or years, and they're probably not my closest friends, but we can pick things up and it's exactly the same.

But that closest friendship I referred to if I texted them, right, now and said I'm really struggling need you Yeah, And there's there's three of us in this group.

I'm really struggling today for whatever reason.

I will get a reply very quickly.

Yes, yeah, very quickly.

So they are there if I need them.

So that's the only bit that concerns me about that listener's message is she's saying, I'm outpouring my feelings.

Now if your feeling's about you know, how crappy day was, or you know a funny anecdote, how great that show was last night, how great the TV show was.

Well, you know, if you don't get a timely response, life's busy.

Don't put those expectations on people for instant responses.

If you're out pouring feelings and you don't get anything at all, then I would start to question, you know, that friendship in terms of you're obviously someone who needs you know a little bit more than that.

It's interesting because we do all have our different needs in the way we communicate.

One of my really good friends as a caller, she loves to chat on the phone, and I'm always.

Like, do it.

I just I mean, I can do it, and I try and make myself do it because I know it matters to her.

But I would write, I would obviously much write like we do it, you know, a check, a check in text and a bit of back and forth on text because who got time for long calls?

Because they're never short?

Are they phone calls like that?

And again in crisis yes, but catch up no.

But then, because I know it's important to her, I do try and make myself do it, So sometimes I think you do have to.

Like, and another one of my friends loves a lot of banter in a group chat, and sometimes I'm just too tired for that.

There's too much banter in other areas of my life, and I'm like, and I can tell that sometimes she gets a bit oh that you're not jumping in, so like, I don't know, God, we've added a lot of complications to our lives with all these different communication stuff.

I would hate to think that anybody took it all to sill, like as in, oh, Holly hasn't got back to me, unless, as you say, someone says I need you and I didn't get back to them.

If I just haven't got back to them when they just were like, hey, look at this link or whatever, then I mean.

No, you can't.

You absolutely, yeah, you need to grow up about that.

As I said in the same different varying chats on WhatsApp in star message, yeah, kind of flipped between all of them.

And it doesn't mean that I haven't read it and had a chuckle at what you've sent me at or you know, I have acknowledged it internally.

But I do need to have friendships in my life that no, not yeah, well not to call.

I don't mind if if if someone really needs something and then it ends up a bit of a longer chat, but if they just call it.

I had one this week hey, and I was like, hey, here going She's like yeah, good, And it was the middle of the day and I'm like, yep, and you're waiting for the drop things.

What's the updates?

So I'm like, I just can't.

I don't.

No, So no, I'm not a I'm not a chatter on the phone either, And you're right, this person is and I have I have not picked up There are times I haven't picked up the phone to her.

I've seen the name.

I just can't right now because she just wants a bit of a chat.

You know.

Another single mum actually and she's she's got kids, probably different times to me.

So she's at home.

I've got my kids and it's not working.

But I have to have friends.

She does under stand that, though she could kind of, you know, call me five times and then on the sixth time, not consecutively, but over a period of a few weeks, and then she's totally fine when we catch up.

She never says, so, I do have to have friends that just get that and understand it.

But yeah, I think it depends on, Yeah, the content of the messages.

You have to have friends that are reliable if you're struggling and they're not kind of like, oh, I don't have time for that, because then what's you know, the definition of a friendship and if they're not there at those times, You're right, it can't be so laid back that it doesn't exist.

After the break, Claire tells me the story of that time her long time mate and bridesmade at whole wedding Ouch just ghosted her.

Talking about communication breakdowns, what about if a friend ghosts you, what about you've been having like regular communication and then you know, this woman is worried about the factch Of doesn't reply quickly enough, but what if they just start to disappear.

Like ghosting is such a big thing in romantic relationships these days, is it also a big thing in our friendships?

Yes, and I think for female friendships, particularly because, like we said, a lot of females are non confrontational and we find it very hard to well, you know, it's nerve racking to be able to tell a friend that you don't want that friendship anymore and that you've chosen some other path.

But I think ghosting can happen in two ways.

I mean, I think that it can naturally occur, particularly as changes go through life, moving house or moving to somewhere else, and career changes and husbands, and that can happen naturally over time, but it can just happen overnight.

You know, I had a friendship of almost twenty years brides made at my wedding, and I can tell you the last phone call we had where I thought everything was fine and never heard from her from the next day onwards.

What do you mean?

And I can't like you you I were like friends for twenty years, she's your bridesmaid.

You're having a conversation on the phone and then what the next day, she just didn't reply to a message, and that just went on and on block to me and blocked.

Chin, did you ever find out why?

No?

And it's that that lack of closure is that occurred around the breakdown of my marriage.

She said, there's two things were connected.

Possibly, Yeah, yes, I do, Yes, I do.

Yes.

It occurred around the you know, and I'm talking like the week of the breakdown of my marriage.

So you were dealing with the breakdown of your marriage and the loss of a very good friend.

Yes, and in terms of grief and pain, there was some arguing and you know, communication obviously there still is with the father of my children, there was quicker closure to that then there was of the friendship, far quick in terms of moving through those stages of grief and being able to have some reasoning as to why this marriage failed and what was going on.

But this friendship ended seemingly overnight, and despite repeated for about two years, not in any real harassing stalk away, but I you know, texted, called, turned up at her house.

Yeah wow, because I was so like, well, I was about to ask you if you did those things, because yes, yeah.

I just don't understand.

I mean do I go to her place of work, And that's what I thought.

This is not do you have mutual friends that you could Yes, and did you like how did that shake out?

What about the other bridesmaids?

Yes, exactly, and there was a few mutual friends, and yes, the two were connected in the sense that she chose to you know, still have a friendship with now my ex husband and I know that they're in contact, and my kids spend time with her now on you know, because's she's in his social circle.

So I actually it's very strange.

I actually hear how her kids are doing and how she's through my kids.

They're like, oh, yes, such and such was there, and you know, we went to the movies with such and such, and but not having the opportunity for her to be able to say whatever her issue was with me and that I've chosen this path is extremely painful four years old.

I know, I'm so sorry.

That actually is a really like it's kind of tempting to as we started talking about the beginning of this show, it's almost tempting to make a bit of a light of that bit of a joke about it, almost, but that must be exceptionally painful because also you needed your friends so much in that moment.

I also find really interesting about that.

Didn't she want to tell you why she was pissed off with you?

Do you know what I mean?

Like why she like, wouldn't there have been from her side, like I want you to know why I'm doing this?

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah?

I don't know, because she, like me, probably even more so, is non confrontational, I would say, even more than me.

I think in that situation, I would recognize the importance of such a huge call and life change that the other person deserves to have a reason rather than just sit there with this unanswered grief.

And it is a form of grief, I mean it absolutely.

You know, for years she still came in front of mine as the person I should be calling and texting when things were falling apart or at three am to shoot the text too or you know, so to not have that there.

It was like quicksand for a while, like I was kind of you know, rudderless in who do I turn to?

But yes, not having the answer I think was cruel.

I think it was cruel, and I think we can all not like confrontation, but extra a letter or an email would have sufficed over nothing.

Yeah, just to say, look, I can't face you, but here's what's going on and here are my feelings.

This is calling us back to one of our earlier dilemmas, right if it's sort of in the same way as a romantic relationship.

You know how we were talking about whether or not ex friends can get back together.

You couldn't rekindle that relationship without the explanation, like you couldn't, you know, we were we were saying, you know, can you kind of you could get back together with an ext friend, go for coffee and maybe not reprosecute everything that happened.

But you couldn't do that with that that's much too deep that.

Oh my gosh, even thinking about that, I'm like, wow, yeah, no, I absolutely not.

But did suddenly message you out of the blue, Like if that friendship was ever going to be revived, this would all have to be addressed.

It's not like you can just go, oh, well there go we had a blip.

I would meet her out of curiosity, absolutely to hear what she has to say.

Still to this day it's been four years.

Want to know, want to reason?

I would definitely meet her.

But there's the difference in the two ghosting.

So the first friendship that I resurrected, it was just this, It wasn't really ghosting.

It was a natural you'd fallen out of each other's lives, and that's what happened.

But there was what happened.

There wasn't heartbreak there, whereas with this one, again like a remonte relateship, there was heartbreak there.

Yeah.

Yeah, And that's you know, it's it's not dissimilar at all, certainly not psychologically to you know, a partner, boyfriend's spouse.

Dumping someone or cutting them off or blocking them without any explanation.

I think that's really cruel, and I think you owe it to them to at least come up with something you know, it's not you, it's me, or give them something where they can hold onto that and say, okay, that's how they feel.

But to just it literally ghost and disappear out of someone's life like that, it's confusing for me.

But yet these stories happen, and I've known other women who've had a sim more you know situations.

It's the unresolved part of it, just as it is for a romantic relationship that hurts for a very long time.

Yeah.

I have great friends that man made in early years at the kids' school, but as they've grown up, the kids don't want to be friends anymore.

It's hard.

In fact, my daughter doesn't just not want to be friends with one of my best friend's sons.

She actually thinks he's a bit of a bad guy.

She tells me things he says to other girls and the inappropriate things he does behind his mum's back.

And now I don't know if I should talk to my friend about it, or are our kids they're now almost seventeen, sort of none of our business.

It's making things awkward, and I feel like I would want to know if it was me.

She says, seventeen.

Yeah, they're none of your business.

They're seventeen.

No, I think he said seven.

Now they're almost seventeen.

Oh.

You can't force kids to be friends just because you're friends, Yes, And I do see that with younger kids too, with mums who are like but wouldn't it be great, particularly if you've got like two girls and it's like, oh, this would be so live.

They're besties like we are.

They're not best is you can't force it, and at seventeen, no, no, you definitely can't force it.

So she's saying that that then this friend group, the kids now tell each tell their parents things about each other too, So like this boy or he's not very nice to his girlfriend or whatever, should you should parents get involved in that business?

Generally?

No, that's what I think.

Yeah, I think generally.

No.

Obviously, some big red flag, like a big lines big just like dangerous stuff.

Correct, yep, yep.

If someone's saying confining you and saying, mum, you know such and such did this to his girlfriend, it was completely yeah, across the line inappropriate dangerous stuff.

Yes, you have an obligation.

You need to talk to your friend about it.

Say, Look, this is what i've heard.

Those situations are hard too, and I've dealt with with clients who've come to me about that, and it has called for the conversation because someone has been in a risky situation and we've talked through the language of how to do that in a very non judgmental, neutral Look, this is what i've heard.

Way, But other than that, No, if they're particularly if they're over you know fourteen fifteen, I would say you have to leave kids to work that out.

You can't make anyone be friends with anyone.

In fact, I think one of the best lessons for kids in general, it's a very hard lesson, is that not everyone will like you, and also you don't have to like everyone else.

Yeah, you know, and sometimes when you kind of in primary school, there's this notion that everyone should be friends.

No, everyone should not be friends because people don't get on.

Yeah, I mean different.

Yes, everyone should treat each other with respect, but not everyone should be friends.

No.

Of course, that's ludicrous to think that, you know, the thirty kids in your class, you're going to be friends with them all.

It's a tough lesson for kids to learn that, well do you like everyone?

No, Well guess what, not everyone's going to like you, and that's okay.

It's like, yeah, there's a really important lesson.

Yeh.

Was very hard for adults.

We're all running around all the time wanting everyone to like us.

So it's yeah.

Particularly, I think that's a really really good way of putting it into kids, which is like do you like everybody?

Because I have a fifteen year old daughter and the friendship dramas that go on my goodness, and they're great, Like she's great and her friends are mostly great.

But there's a lot of a lot of drama.

And I'm always just like, try and stay out of it as much as you can, try not to be too But again, it would be unrealistic to assume that they were all loved each other sick all the time.

No, yeah, that's right.

But the difference is, and it's you know, stereotypically a female thing is that if you don't like each other and there's a clash there, well that's fine.

It's a neutral acceptance that that's okay, you're not my person.

But females then go that one step further and overlay the drama with it.

Yeah, s't.

It shouldn't have the drama.

It should just be an acceptance of, well, we don't really get on that well, and I'll say hi out of respect to you, but that's it, and that's okay.

But the complications of drama of female relationships, and you know, they start preschool, kindergarten, it's you know, and they do continue into adult life, and particularly with some women more than others.

I would say it because I have a boy and a girl.

Boys have drama too.

It just looks different.

It looks different like they definitely do.

There's there's exclusion.

Yes, there's talking about there's there's talking about each other behind their backs.

That that all happens.

It's just it just has a slightly different tone to it somehow.

Or they're not just smugging in all together on the handball court.

That handball court is a you know, he is the fertile grand around for exclusion.

And they also know how to push each other's buttons.

It's just I don't know.

It just has a slightly different flavor to it.

And there doesn't seem to be quite so much relishing because sometimes I would saying to Matilda, like what are you mates?

Talk about it?

And she'll be like, drama.

But that's the thing.

And if there's no drama, we need to create the drama because what we going to talk about.

And that's the whole premise of reality television.

That's it.

That has been a really good chat.

Yeah, thank you so much.

I hope we've solved a few friendship dilemmas for our listeners and it's been really good to talk to you, so thank you.

It's been great.

Thanks for having me, MIDS.

Thank you so much for being my friends as we've worked our way through these dilemmas that you've so generously shared with me.

If you want to learn more about Clairo's work, please follow the link in the show notes.

And as I told you at the beginning of this conversation, this is our last episode of season six.

We're going to be back in your ears in a month or so with season seven, and believe me, you're not going to want to miss it.

I am calling up some.

Of my very favorite grown up women for some big, deep conversations, So please follow or subscribe to wherever you're listening to this right now, Like, do whatever you need to do to make sure you don't miss out when we come back with more mid, and always throw us a rating or a review.

We love it helps people find our show.

Mid Is Conversations for gen X women who are anything but.

People like you, I think massive.

Thank you to our team who helped us put this show together.

Executive producer of Mid is Niama Brown.

Our senior producer is Charlie Blackman, and we have audio design by Jacob Brown.

Bye.