So you're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

Mama Mer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

Hello, MID listeners.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist and the host of Mamma MIA's newest podcast, This Is Why We Fight, where eight different pairs share their relationship challenges in authentic therapy sessions so that you can benefit from what they learn and also learn more about the therapy process.

I think that you fans of MID in particular, would appreciate this episode with Sam and Emma, a long term couple who've raised their kids together, had many happy years, but have increasingly been feeling like they're drifting apart.

It's such a relatable place that so many couples could find themselves in.

So have a listen.

I hope you enjoy.

Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters this podcast was recorded on.

This podcast has been produced with the strongest regard for the wellbeing of our participants, all of whom have chosen to sh their biggest relationship struggles in the hopes of helping other people.

All participants have been provided with resources and opportunities for ongoing support.

As a mom, I think you put your kids first and then it becomes a natural instinct.

Maybe even in your relationships.

I think you also spend so much time sometimes just not wanting to upset the upper cart and not wanting.

To make things uncomfortable for everybody, that you just deal with it, but then end up in situations where you just go, well, maybe I just go and not be.

Here and be on my own, and then that would just be easier.

Welcome to this is why we find real people, real problems, real therapy.

My name is Sarah Bays.

I'm a clinical psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples and families.

This series has been designed to allow you, our listeners, to sit in on the therapy sessions of other people who are grappling with challenges in their relationships, because I firmly believe that we can learn so much from each other.

Today you're meeting Sam and Emma.

Fifty year old Sam and forty five year old Emma are both teachers in the south coast of New South Wales.

For the past decade, they've been raising their blended family together They're here today to discuss something that is common with couples as their kids get older and move out of home, something called empty nesting, leading them to wander are they on the same page about what they want the next chapter of their lives to look like?

Or is this the end of the road for them.

Here's Session one with Sam and Emma.

Emma, I'll start with you, what drove you to initiate this process?

With Sam?

I initiated this process, I guess because we're at a stage of our lives where, you know, with blended families eight years ago, and that that journey is about to change a bit, because you know, three of the four kids have turned eighteen doing their own sort of thing.

We've got one who's you know, sort of almost finished high school.

And Sam's been at the later end of like his two kids.

Are that older, at the too older sort of.

End, And and I can see he's taking on these things outside the relationship that are like the stuff that you would just do on your own, you know, like I just go play golf and I just hang.

With the boys.

And I think the past few years we've had a few ups and downs, and my kind of wanting to talk through things would be about like how do we go forward?

You know, do we want to go forward together?

We've spent quite a lot of.

Time, you know, building, and you know it hasn't always been easy blending families and you know, raising four teenagers in a house with everything.

But you know, is you know, what does the next step look like for us?

You know, is it going to be asked or is it you know kind of like, well, we've done the hard yards, are we you know, do we want different things now?

That kind of thing okay?

And in terms of the question of do we want different things or is it that we're going to continue together?

What makes you question that rather than what many other couples might go, Okay, the kids are almost the kids are almost out, and it's now back to us, what do we want to do?

Yeah, there's a question I guess there that's a little bit different.

I think I have a different view of where I would like to be when the kids are gone, and that is, you know, great this time like that we can travel and you know, without it being too much like me projecting that I want to do all things I want to do.

I guess coming from a situation where being married before and had to, you know, kind of compromise on a lot of things, and have had to compromise on things the whole way because you know, I had kids very young, and.

I kind of would like to know that that next part, if.

It's not maybe a little bit selfish, is something that is that you know, Sam wants to do together.

Yeah, and I don't think that's selfish.

Sam.

Do you maybe let me check in with you around that.

Do you feel like there are they're not compatible what you want to be doing when the kids are all gone versus what Emma does.

I understand where we want to get to.

It's just I can't get there until I'm there in terms of, you know, breaking the cycle that we have now, in terms of our kids and our friendships and those sort of things, like we'd both end up on the beach somewhere retired and no, no one really.

Yeah, but I can't get there yet.

I want to get there.

I just I don't think of it the same way as Emades.

We've got the same endpoint, I just yeah, different mindset, so be getting there.

You say our endpoints are the same, but at the same time, I still.

Envision the way you like, regardless of moving.

All of that, like, regardless of that, no matter where we end up, it's I feel like it will be you just doing I don't know, like the things you want to do.

But it doesn't always like most of the time it won't involve me.

Because it's very singular, very like.

You know, things that you can do on your own with the blokes or anything, and I kind of feel like I don't.

I'm never going to be at that point with you.

Yeah, yeah, I'll get that.

I just I suppose the life we're in now, which is the working nine to five, that to me is not the next life.

And I feel like I can transition into that quite easily if it's not here, If it's not yeah, in the same routine that we're at loud, Yeah, I need to change the environment everything else to just go to that next phase of product.

So it's just you and I.

Now, is there the potential that by the time you guys are ready for that next phase, if there hasn't been much sort of overlap of doing things together, that there might be less of a relationship left to then move and do all that stuff that you do agree on them when in your future together.

I'm not sure if that's where you're you're kind of coming from of that.

If I already don't feel a part of much of a part of your life in the fun stuff we do outside of here, is there a bit of a disconnect happening?

Yeah?

Yeah, I think that that is where I'm coming from.

I'm not thinking necessarily about the you know, the reality is the no kid move sort of situation is at a minimum like five years away, and like we don't even know where life would be then with everything that is, like that is one thing that we do sort of seem to have that we would want to do together.

I think for me, it's more like in this moment, yeah, the next sort of few years.

I guess there's a little bit of.

Like I'm, you know, in my mid forties, and don't I don't want to wake up in my mid fifties and be like, okay, well, not that I'm saying it'd be a waste, but just sort of be like, oh, well, that we didn't get to the endpoint together, even though you said that that's what you wanted.

That kind of situation, I know, there's no guarantees, don't get me wrong.

But you know, like I think for example, now, like you you know, you don't have as much to do with your two children because they're at a stage where they're driving, and they've got you know, young teenage or their teenage group, and they've got like their whole lives that they're just doing their own things with and you have sort of then taken on this like great, Okay, I'm going to go and take on all these things, but they don't really involve me.

And you know, with your job, you.

Throw so much into it, and then the more time that you don't have to be at home kids them, you just take on more job.

So my worry is then if that's what is the pattern for the next few years, Yes, when I don't have you know, you know, well the last child that you know is you.

Know, my last child at home?

You know, is it going to be too late by then because you'll have just sort of gone off and lived this sort of singular male life a little.

Bit, and you know that distance will have been created between us.

Do you feel the distance has already been created?

Is there some distance already?

I think that Sam chooses to take on things or do things unlike when we started the relationship.

With out involving me and I.

You know, I think we used to enjoy a lot more things together.

What do you think, No, I think the change of job is being massive.

Like I've invested heavily in a job that's so different than school teaching, where I had structured hours and holidays and those sorts of things, and you know, it's it's almost a passion project, but it's also a job, and I definitely have immersed myself probably too far in it, but it's hard to get out, and you know, that's with our family situation.

Like I've been able to do that because my two kids are That's part of where I was able to go because they were coming out of the high school situation and independent and they're both adults now and it just hasn't aligned with where I suppose we're act in some respects, but insane that Cama has been fully supportive of me doing that and has probably been be driving being able to do that.

And I am supportive, and I.

Think though there's sometimes a limit to it, that it needs to be recognized that it takes too much away from.

You know, our lives and Emma, when you notice that, do you raise it with Sam?

Sometimes I think I've I think I've recognized lately, I think I've slowly started shutting not shutting down and said that's right word.

I think I've just stopped addressing things.

I think that is part of the reason why I think we wanted to do Oh, I wanted to do this and bring this up is because I think I've stopped.

I've kind of gone to this i'll just be annoyed and get on with it.

Mode in the past few years, rather.

Than being like, no, I'm really upset and I'm angry at that, and I recognize that's not a good way to be, but I don't feel like that.

I get where Sam's coming from because he has been lucky enough to you know, work in this job that he's passionate about, and I don't want.

Him not to do that, but I also, you know, I want to want there to be more of a balance, and I think I have.

Relationship although I'll put the job ahead of Yeah, absolutely absolutely.

I think that's the key part is that I've been able to do this through Emma, But then i'n't prioritized Emma in the whole process.

And when Emma has raised it with you.

So it sounds like there were times where you had brought things up before this sort of shutdown part where maybe you just not bringing it up anymore.

Yeah, I guess sometimes I felt like maybe I was just being a winterer, or maybe I was just like, just you know, stop being such a nager about it.

Isn't he lucky that he's got a job that he loves?

And I guess it hasn't been on the flip side, you know, since COVID, both of us have had to have career changes, and mine wasn't as easy because I had to transition from something I'd loved and done for a really long time, but it didn't exist unfortunately, like the whole thing just eraporated basically, and then trying to land that next thing has not been as easy.

And so I don't think it's jealous that you've got something that you love, but it's more just like maybe at times I feel like I'm being annoying or whinging because I'm like, well, you know, you just do everything with your job and I don't have that anymore, Like I don't have that position that I'm passionate.

And love and involved in anymore.

It's just for me.

It's just go to work and do the hours you have to do and come home.

And part of that I've then thrown into.

The family life and the kids and the house that you know needs stuff done around, like really need stuff done around.

And I guess I get a little resentful, probably very resentful that you get to have the passion job but you get to do ninety percent of your time is that and the ten percent is the home stuff.

And yeah, I mean it comes back to balance.

But yeah, I think, Sorry, what you were saying is do I bring it up?

But sometimes I feel like I don't bring it up even though I get angry about it because I think maybe I'm just being.

Maybe I'm not just to fight and being angry at it.

Yeah, And I mean it's interesting to think that the first sort of reflection that you had about even wanting to be able to do what you wanted in your later years of you know, getting the kids to a point where they can kind of look after themselves and then now it's time for me to do things that I want the fact that that there was some self doubt in that around, like, is that selfish is that even okay to think or want?

And then now the idea of asking Sam to give a bit of time to you and to the relationship that also feels whether it be selfish or unfair or am I unreasonable asking him to take time away from his passion.

So there's this real like me having a need or wanting anything is not okay or it's uncomfortable for you, like you're questioning whether it's okay.

Yeah, I guess that's true.

I think.

I mean, as a mom, I think you are, generally or you do put your kids first, and then it becomes a natural instinct maybe even in your relationships that you just like.

You know I also I don't.

I think you also.

Spend so much time sometimes just not wanting to upset the upper part and not wanting to make things uncomfortable for everybody, that you just deal with it.

But it's not always great.

I get that, because you then end up in situations where you just go, well, maybe I just go and not be here and be on my own, and then that would just be easier.

After this short break, we're going to dive into the deep end of resentment.

What it really is, what it does to a relationship and how to move beyond it.

Stay with us before you said the word resentment, you know, like that's what breeds resentment is when we don't put our needs out there or ask for things that we want from our partner or anywhere at work, doesn't matter.

But you know, when I'm not putting my needs forward and they're consistently not being met, eventually I am either going to disengage and withdraw or I will be resentful.

And maybe there's a little bit of but maybe you're kind of oscillating between both, so there's a bit of that shutdown of like, okay, whatever, I'm just not going to have expectations, you know, which is that protective mechanism when I keep being hurt by something that is not being met or I feel resentful and there might be criticism or you know, little things that come out in behavior when we feel that way.

And I don't know, if we go to Sam for a second, whether any of this is news to you or you know, are you aware that Emma wants more time with you and that it hurts her to the point that she's almost kind of, you know, almost imagining a future without you because she feels that you're not engaged in the relationship.

Yeah, no, absolutely, Well I think that's why he's sitting here right now.

Like, yeah, I'm fully aware that some of my sort of selfishness and immersing myself and the things that I love has caused us to be sitting here in this point.

Yeah, I know that there's a resentment there, and you know that the way that things utopia wise wanted to pan out haven't panned out.

But yeah, we're sitting here because we want to try and get to the right point.

So yeah, and like I think we've because you know, leading up to this process, I guess we've had time to reflect a little bit knowing that we would be talking about things, and I think even knowing that we have to address it has helped.

Yeah, Yeah, it can be a lot can be done before the therapy once.

Yeah, and even just having like a focus of hang on, we're doing this, actually starting to think about ourselves with both having busy lives and kids and you just you put it all to the side mhm, and you just keeped on the daily life thing and when things come up, you hand aid them and say we'll be right, we'll get through the next bit.

We've probably done that too often, and you know, the situation that we're sitting in right now is potentially a really good opportunity to air some grievances and on and a few things, because would we very rarely sit here on this couch together without anyone else sort of saying can I have this?

And can you do this?

And so we've sort of we've actually locked out some time together to go, let's focus on this.

So yeah, yeah, it's pretty obvious that we need to do more of that too, you know, foster a relationship, and we just haven't done that.

And I'll take the responsibility.

I haven't done that because I've been doing that, you know, with work and kids, and she's you know, in the same boat.

I think in the like we said, I think in the lead up the past few weeks has been.

Sam has actually made the effort.

I'm not going to I'm not going to do that thing at work until like really late.

I'm going to actually just cut.

It off and come home, because you know, he doesn't have the typical like nine to five job, and so at times it can get quite like lengthy and.

Everybody's like needs a part That's the thing.

Too, is that like Sam has a job where it requires everybody to have a piece of them, you know, everybody, and the emotional needs and the you know, lot lots of different aspects of these people that he works with, lives, he supports and does all this for.

But and I you know, don't get me wrong, it's something I love about him that is just this, you know, has this ability that people like really.

Need to like lean on him and go to him for a lot of stuff.

At the same time, it's been for me like, well, I guess the past few years I felt like that's their needs are more of a priority than the needs of like, well, I'm having a crap day.

But if I rang and said I'm having a crap day, you would be like, oh, look, I've you know, I still can't get there because such and such needs to talk.

And and I think the past probably six months, I have shut down a lot because I just and I think that's why we're at the point with this, because I'm like, it would just be easier to.

Not rely on you for that need that it would be to think that maybe that need could be met or like maybe.

One day you'll not do that or not prioritize that.

So then again I'll be a partie and I'm not trying to take all everything.

I don't want your undivided attention or I just want to think that I'm not.

Like you're not priority number one.

Yeah, I mean Sam, it's a big risk, I guess to have, yeah, to have known that this is how Emma feels for a little while.

And but there's obviously been some type of struggle to change the behavior when I said the behavior, to change, yeah, the structure or the dynamic at work in order to make a bit more time to carve out for relationships.

So in terms of like how long it's been that you've been aware and then the difficulty in trying to change anything have Is it that you haven't tried?

Is it that you've tried things but they didn't work.

Is it that it feels uncomfortable to try and implement something like what do you think of in the barriers?

If this isn't news to you and you've been aware that Emma wants more time attention, like quality a couple of time.

Yeah, don't think it's I think I've burnt aware the whole time.

I think I'm so aware that Emma will support me in this role no matter what.

But I think having been in the role for a couple of years, I've been able to go hang on, what at what cost has this role come on my personal off?

And And yeah, I think it's been probably the last I'll say four months, but it's probably longer.

But it's intense fight over the last four months where I've probably realized that if something doesn't change, then this ain't going to last.

Basically, Yeah, And you know, Emma's given everything to make it work, and not just our relationship but the role I'm in work with her investment in the things that I'm doing, and it's probably been that investment she's given to that where I've gone hang on, She's like doing everything to make my half work.

What am I doing?

Yeah, Because when you're immersing a role where it's sort of people rely on you, has jumped into that to being relied on again by the same people, I'm like, yeah, wow.

Like she's willing to give of a lot of her emotional physical energy to support me, and I can see the toll that's taken on her physically when we come home together because it's great to be able to achieve those things together.

But then I just see the toll and think, well, you know, it's like looking into a mirror of times or when I didn't invest in her.

You know, she's worried about me giving everything to someone something else and giving her nothing back.

So yeah, I suppose her investment in this process has shown me how it is.

It's a huge not burden, but it's a huge drain on us as a couple, and she's been willing to do that.

And I now realize that, you know, if it was just me investing in it, well, that's that's just going to implode, basically.

So I think maybe it's that is I had a mentality I guess a bit at the start of the year.

We've had a couple of really tough sort of years with external things to the relationship outside of work, and.

I sort of thought, if I can't beat them, join them.

So I'm helping out.

With Sam's work, and I guess it was kind of like, well, I can't, He's there all the time, so I might as well just.

Volunteer and help out.

And so I think it has helped us get.

Through a year where we're not in a situation where you have previously kind of gone down this like really hard track towards the end of the seat, end of the year and things have got on top of you.

And it's probably just given us both perspective on like, hey, I get that that job's hugely draining, but I'm jumping in with it, and it's what time we got left for us, and he's that the priority in our lives, Like that's been the reality of it.

Like, it's certainly sort of in the role that I'm in giving me a lot, and I'm not sure how much longer I can do this, And that's where the Emma's with me or not, because I'm starting to prioritize that, well, we've got our life and it's more important than you know, what I'm doing.

Yeah, so you know her investment there is in coinciding with what we're doing here, is Yeah, Emma's made all the effort towards going, hey, like we ain't going to ask we ain't going to last much longer unless we invest in us.

You know, I'm investing in you, but yeah, I need to you know, I need to invest more in in Emma.

And what would that look like for you, Sam to Yeah, like, let's get sort of more specific, tangible examples of how do you invest in Emma and in the relationship.

Yeah, I think I just need to prioritize, you know, making specific blocks of time available for us, and then being able to say no to the things that come up in my job to go know what, like this is my job is not number one priority.

It's I need to get home.

I need to do the things that I need to do to ensure that, you know, our end goals of living on the beach and knowing no one and enjoying each other's company can actually be chaped.

Can I ask?

Though?

Is it something you want to do?

I mean, like, I'm not saying that you don't enjoy time together, but the reality is like.

Do you want to spend that time?

Like do you do you think that when we do have spent time together you enjoy it?

Or do you think that maybe you like throw yourself into the work and the other things, because.

Not necessarily avoidance, but just more like, well, it's not I don't actually enjoy hanging out that much.

Like is there something that we've lost over the time that we just have we don't enjoy hanging out and doing those things.

Yeah, no, it's not definitely not the avoidance of trying to hang out together.

It's just part way.

Do you get the sense, Emma, that that Sam doesn't enjoy the time together or you just were just sort of checking in?

Oh, I do a time, think he doesn't.

I think.

I don't know if I've become like I know, I've become older, Like that's reality, Like I know I'm not in my thirties, and you know, hurting fun and.

I don't know.

I guess I like different things now and maybe I am a bit slower, and I feel like you're at times.

Fastening wife up a bit.

And you know, I get the feelings sometimes that I am quite like I'm just not I'm too boring.

To be around or something.

I don't know, or we just maybe we just don't enjoy the same things anymore when we hang out.

Not all the time, just sometimes I get that feeling.

Yeah, can you be specific?

Am I like?

Sometimes I think it can help if it's sort of being specific of you know, I noticed that you like doing X y Z and that's not what we do, and what we do together is X y Z and do you actually like that, Like, can you be a bit more specific?

I don't know what we used.

To do, but like on a Sunday, now it just becomes like you go sit.

In one room and drink beer and watch TV, and I'll sit somewhere else.

And maybe that's because we're just absolutely cooked from a busy week.

But I don't know, Like I feel like years ago, not that long ago, we used to do things like plan a weekend and go for camping.

Or hiking or just even slip away out of town.

For not even for twenty four hours or even for a few hours.

But we used to do those things together.

And now our weekends involve just being in our house doing nothing.

But when you want to do something, you will book it, but you'll book it for you and you and your mates to go do like you'll go.

Book golf, or you'll organize to go to the pub or whatever.

But I guess what I'm saying is I don't remember the last time you were like, okay, I've booked us to go stay and go for a camp or go for a high court, Like we just don't.

Our life sort of involves work, being at home and there's.

Nothing in between anymore.

But there is in between for you because you plan those things.

And I understand I've got to and I've tried to get a bit better at doing my own thing.

But I also I think part of this reason for me is there's only so much I do want to do as my own thing, Like I'll go and up to my sisters or I'll you know, go up to Sydney or do something outside of us, and I enjoy that, but I also don't want that to become the norm.

I don't want that to be the most enjoyable thing because I guess from like what I want out of it this relationship is that those are the things that we do together, but I don't know if they are the things you enjoy, So I guess that's you know, part of the reason we're here is like are we at the crossroads where the things that you enjoy doing are those things on your own with your mates, you know, the golf and that, and then the things I enjoy doing.

Like those things, and are we going to find a way to enjoy things together?

Yeah, that makes sense.

I definitely like escaping at times like just let's go, Like whether it's go for whatever it is just and it's not just it's not just escaping, you know, it's getting away from everything.

Yeah.

Yeah, I feel like i' need that to be able to do that.

But it's not avoidance just our daily life, as in, I need to get out of this.

Do you enjoy the things that Emma brought up getting out of town for a day or for a night or a little weekend or going for hikes, the camping, Like is that something that you are interested in doing with her?

Or is it like yeah, absolutely, I just I think it's just so hard to invest that time into that because of everything else going on.

Like it's but.

I think what I'm saying is you find the time to book.

Yeah, book in advance, like weeks in advance, like a golf but you don't book, you know, weeks in advance.

Okay, let's just go away or let's have you know, when.

You spend time with me, it's like on a Sunday, you go, Okay, let's let's now go out for lunch because it's like last.

Minute and I haven't got anything else looked in, so let's go do that.

Yeah.

So I get the feeling like I'm not the That's what I mean by I say, I ask if you actually do enjoy spending time on me, because you enjoy spending time with me as full dose is where you want someone to go.

And part and have lunch with.

But outside of that, yeah, I suppose those things are more I'll get golf in it.

It's they're just more time consuming.

It's not it is escaping, but it's yeah, I'll get what it's doing.

So there's something there around turning your attention to booking in or scheduling that time with Emma as well, rather than incidentally like oh, well we live together or you know, I see every day.

Yeah, it's kind of that can get taken for granted rather than I actually do need to book in and schedule proper quality time.

Yeah, yeah, and yeah, definitely need to be better at doing that, and.

I that would be great as long as you want to do that.

I think that's my point is you want.

To do Yeah, I do.

I enjoyed doing those things.

It's just yeah, I was just wondering, Emma, do you have an issue with the other things that Sam is doing because you're yeah, I'm sort of hearing you really wanting that reassurance that he wants to.

It's almost like you worry that he's being forced to or that he like absolutely has completely changed lifestyle and that this lifestyle is so unattractive to him or something.

It's, yeah, there's something there.

I think Sam's life is.

Is different when we met eight years ago, and that's a job and his hobbies and everything is different.

And that's fine, that's you know, I'm you know, happy to adapt to all of that.

And I think it's really great that he has that.

I mean, it'd be I don't even me wrong, would be worse if you had no enjoyment outside of the relationship and you're just always here, and you know, I know that it's got to be a balance.

I think I have started resenting some parts of it because I feel like I'm always the one that's like, oh, okay, so I'll book as in and do this, and I'll do book to do this, and it's almost like I'm I'm the one organizing everything and dragging you along to it because you don't ever book anything and organize anything for us to do.

But you get I see how excited you get when you're like, oh, I've got this booked in with this guy and it's going to be great, and I'm really excited by that.

And I guess I feel a little bit resentful because I think, well, you don't get I don't get any of that, Like I don't get the I'll guess what I've booked us into, even the movies We're going to go to the movies, theater or something like.

You don't.

You don't have any of that enjoyment at all outside of the things that you plan for you and you and your mates.

So I feel very kind of, I guess, a little bit lonely, and please, I don't want to think that.

It's not that you shouldn't do those.

Things, but there's it just would like a little bit of balance, you know, between you working as much and then outside of that it's all about the other things.

I am so far down the kind of like run with.

People to hang out with that it gets, you know quite at times.

Like like I said, I could just go live a completely different life and own and then I wouldn't feel disappointed or upset or.

I'm taking it's not a slightly different track, but I do think it's related.

Is there much affection between the two of you, Like, I'm thinking about bids for connection right, so throughout the day or you know, when you're at home or after work or whatever, when you guys are just at home hanging out, is there Yeah, like is there?

Affection?

Is there?

You know, just those little things that maybe playful or being silly, like, is there that stuff still present?

Yeah?

I think so, I think so.

Yeah, definitely, I was way No, We're very affectionate.

You know, if you're sitting on a couch or something, you have to hand on you and make sure you're okay or you know, like definitely, and we never you know, we'd never leave the day or.

Leave each other without giving each other a kiss or buy or like.

Yes, affection is not an issue, but it's physically where Yeah.

Good, So there's a sense of enjoying each other's presence and feeling close and connected in that way.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

For me, I'm very physical my well we just talked about in terms of booking things, and it's just not my strength.

Like I'm an affectionate, physical, present person looking forward and going right on in a book of weekend and yeah, that stuff is just yeah, it's never like it's that's genetic Well it's from both and yeah, so we are very different in that space.

And you know, you can't you can't counteract that stuff because I totally understand how much that means to Emma, like that that that is not me, that is not as meaningful to me as it is to Emma.

Yes, but I totally understand and how that is really important to her, Whereas there's parts of what we do really well that they fill my cup.

And I've got to be more aware of the things that fill Emma's cup in terms of like it's you know, and it's it's it's a bad effort, it's.

It's just quality times.

It's like actual quality.

This really you know, a workend away here or there, or a movie that you're sleeping, but it's just it's just those things.

It's like done, stop playing stubborn and it's not about you.

Yeah, and it is.

It's a selfish.

It's like to be more selfless in that whole Just go and book color movie tickets.

And you don't realize the benefit that will have in just prioritizing three hours of just it.

We don't need to incentivize him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I need to do more.

Sentze totally understand that that there needs to be that balance of effort both ways.

And I recognize that I don't want to make you do things you don't want to do.

So you know when I say movies and all of that, it's like once upon a time, I know, we used to do a lot of stuff.

I used to do a lot of things that I didn't want to do because that's what you're doing that.

But I need to recognize that the reason why we got together is because those moments were like no fueled.

So yeah, that's what built the foundation the whole.

You know, I already had one divorce, so I don't want to do that again.

And you do roll into that whole, Well, I don't want to do it anymore because but it's you know, you have to rekindle the effort to go, well why am I doing this?

Because this person's really important to me and I love her, and like this is while we're in this together, is sometimes you have to give up things or do things you don't want to do because you love that person and that means the world to them to be able to do that.

But is it that you don't want to do it.

And this is the thing is because are we saying that you don't want to spend time or that you don't enjoy the activity, because this is playing in a little bit into what Emma was worried about about you doing things you don't want to do.

No, it's not.

It's not like the thing is once I get there, I actually do enjoy it.

Yeah, it's just that's the whole get rid of everything else then scrap those two five What are things that you think you've got to do and just prioritize this.

Yeah, it's just that.

It's because whenever I do, I go, why do I do that more often?

I think we never have a workend away where we go.

Oh that was terrible.

That was that was a drag, Like you made that feel like a drag because getting you to book it was a drag and it was an actual drag once we get there?

So why don't we do this more often?

And I'm the same, why don't we do this more often?

But I get so caught up in all the other things that I go, like I'd have to go away this weekend, like let's go to the movies.

But just yeah, it's not that I want to go to the movies.

It's I want to spend that time together.

But I make everything else, or not everything, but other things a priority and go It's okay, it's fine, Like it won't mean must It's fine that I'll go and spend two hours at work or whatever it is.

I feel like, do you get.

You know, because I mean there's a period of time that we do work.

Well, Sam wis weekends or one days on the weekend, and then I've been helping out and so like we.

We've had mainly only Sundays off for a very long period of time.

So don't get me wrong, I understand that this whole idea of doing things together and going away is limited, but it is about prioritizing on those times, you know, the other half of the you when that is available.

But do you feel that the.

Does it just become like, oh, it's I just cannot be bothered because it's I'm just I just don't want to do anything.

I'm too exhausted.

No, it's not exhausting, not real.

Yeah, it's just like hang on, get out of my head and get into our head and say, if I do this small little thing, it'll help us significantly.

Yeah, so even though I want to go and get golf called play golf or whatever it is, and golf's not the biggest issue in our relationship, but just give that up and spend the two hours or the two days or whatever it is.

And it shouldn't matter of time, and it's just you know, it'll be repaid in spades.

I know that.

Like I think that's that zooming out, isn't it?

Where?

Yeah, what I choose to do in these moments will make a big difference to our next six months, our next five years.

You know, it's all, Yeah, get.

A phone call.

Do you want to come and over be down the pub?

I'd love to, But Emon and I are doing this and let's catch up next week.

Like, yeah, so what gets And I think this is the part because I'm going to guess this isn't the first time that a discussion along these lines has been had.

Will usually normally people come to therapy after we've talked about it at least once, two, three, four, five times and for some reason it's not working.

What goes wrong?

Sam?

Where?

Yeah?

So okay, I need to set more time aside for my relationship.

It's something I want to do I know it's important because I can see that you want to do it and you understand the importance of it.

But then what goes wrong.

I'd rather know what goes wrong.

I think I just I think I just know I'll get away with it.

Yeah so you think that she'll never leave.

You think she won't leave?

Ah?

No, No, I certainly don't think that, But I think I don't make it out it's big enough to Yeah.

So you minimize it in your mind.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

It was like, you know what, like, surely me doing this and not prioritizing Emma in this situation, she won't lead me.

But when you do that.

A hundred times, Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Like maybe if I did it once, it'd be like, no, she won't.

But yeah, when you continue to do that and then stick with that mentality, I see the cheyntes and at some point it'll break.

Mm hmm.

That's my issue too, is I do.

Like you said before, we're both divorced, were both you know, we're married for long periods of time and had kids and then divorced, and I don't want to do that again.

Like I don't want to split up kids and households and you know it's traumatic for everybody.

Yeah, but in the same breath.

So you know, I probably I think too.

We're both in relationships where if we kept doing what we're doing, they would have stayed together, like both parties would have just dealt with it.

Yeah, and.

We didn't.

You know, we were both instigators and getting out of those relationships because.

We wanted different things.

Yeah.

So then you you know, you get into this situation where you make someone like that and go, well, h this person ain't just going to sit around and take my stuff vice versa.

Let's not get to that point because we got out of one for that reason, let's not do it again.

Yeah.

And that that is the other point too, is that you know, and we're also coming to the point where with no kids around or will kids not as invested in being at home and needed by us, that.

It's not a catalyst to stay anymore either.

It's not a reason to say, oh, well, I'm not going to block this because I can't.

It needs to be worthwhile and it needs to be fought for, yes, but.

It needs to be the relationship needs to be.

Like wanted to be fought for and wanted to be, you know, on the same somewhat the same page.

Both parties are getting there of it what they yeah, you know, putting in and yeah, And I think that's the situation, getting like I'm getting a lot out of this relationship.

I'm probably not putting enoughing.

That's reality.

And I guess yes, not letting yourself get too comfortable in that and getting too comfortable and thinking that this won't matter, This won't matter.

It's mattering, and it has been mattering, and now it's chipping away at this relationship we've built.

Yeah.

Absolutely, Yeah, I'm doing things outside of the relationship that I really want to do.

But what am I doing inside the relationship to enable that I'm not investing enough in that.

When we come back, we're going to talk about family systems and how Sam's upbringing his influence to who he is in his relationship with Emma.

Don't go anywhere, Emma.

I'm interested in what you quietly.

I heard you say before.

It's the way you were raised.

What did you mean by that?

Very honest, I understand what you're saying.

Sam has grown up an environment where he has been enabled to do whatever he wants somewhat like you.

You were very lucky.

It was he grew up very lucky because his parents were very like, you can do everything, and you're wonderful, and you're graded everything, and.

And that's that's really great.

That's that's a bit.

Yeah, I think so.

I think my parents, I couldn't ask a better parent.

No, they're wonderful people.

Asupport, I think they were pretty hard.

But I think they said to me that their relationship they never said no, no, they never said no, have whatever we needed.

But it's not like we didn't have flush cars and stuff like that.

No, that's not where I'm coming from.

I'm saying they.

That was at the detriment of them as a relationship.

So probably a bit of backstories that mum came down here when I first had kids and then opened up to me that she wasn't happy and pretty much went shopping down here to find a house.

And he's a great mum and great grandmother, so she said, I'm just going to move down here and look after the kids because that's what she wanted to do because she wasn't happy in her relationship.

And then Dad ended up retiring eventually after a couple of years and moved down with her.

She would have never left dad like no matter and he never physically treated her poorly or but he just he wasn't an invested person in a relationship.

And I've got some of those attributes, and what we've talked about is part of that.

I think Emma's very close to my mom and dad, and Mum and Dad love Emma, but she doesn't want to end up the same way.

And I'm the same.

I'm the same.

I don't want to know whether I just I love my mom and dad, and you know, they grew up in an area where you did stick together and you start stick through whatever happened, and you stick.

Together no matter what the relationship is, which I don't you know, I.

Don't want to do because you don't want to end up being you know, seventies and eighties.

But I mean that's so far down the track, I think.

And my mum said to me like, oh, actually, there's times and I wish i'd left your dad just to escape his you know, selfishness, and he's pursued of what he wanted to do and Mum and not being able to do it she wanted to do.

Yeah, and so I think that their relationship is supportive of each other.

But at the.

Same time, Sam's dad has always done exactly what he wanted to.

You know, he plays golf, he hangs with his mates, he never books holidays, never.

Extensively, and never.

Gone with Yeah, and she's amazing because she's just said, right, well, I'm going to go travel the world and do it on my own.

Which is almost where you were at, Emma, Like in the beginning you're sort of like, well, is this something you want to do with me or should I just go do this myself?

If I'm smarazing.

And I've thought long and hard about that because I look at Sam's mum and think she's a wonderful woman.

But I see her too and see how much she just craves that.

Your partner to go, Oh, I want to do things with a partner.

And when Sam and I have gone away together, you know she'll be like, oh, you know, it's so great that you two get to do those things because they don't, you know, and so not to be that like, oh, I don't want to turn out like parents, but it is there.

Is quite a strong parallel there, right, It is a very.

Very strong parallel.

In all honesty, Emma's a lot of Emma's character traits and my mom and I love that about it.

And that's why my mum and Emma get on so well.

Like, you know, you're not a mum's life.

She's like, I want to see my son with someone who is life then, and there's a lot of that.

But part of Emma's strength is like, yeah, we're not going to have the relationship you and dad have either, because I know that you're not.

You haven't moved fulfilled any of the things that she wanted to be fulfilled with in terms of that relationship.

That just hasn't happened.

And you know that's that's mum's spotting life and dad and there's you know, she'll stick by him through thick and thin, which she's doing, but she probably will have some regrets around I wish things were different and when I Emma, she doesn't want to do that, and I totally get that.

I don't either.

I don't want to regret look back and go, well, what if that's why we split from.

Our first And yeah, I think you know, one of the things is the fact that it's amazing that your mum has traveled and she always wanted to do that, so she did that, and that's something that just one thing I'd like to be able to do a little bit more, because you know, we've done a really good job of raising kids and a household and everything.

So there's the next sort of point of those things that I'd like to sort of work towards.

But yeah, I don't want to do it like she's to do it on our own.

And I guess it's kind of like saying, if that's I want to know, is that something.

You do really want to do?

Yeah?

Absolutely, So I guess we've got Sam saying yes.

Right, so we've got Emma saying is this what you want?

Sam is saying yes, And maybe right now it's hard to not believe, but you know, actions speak louder than words.

So let's say historically Sam's actions have not really been showing that he really wants to invest and put time in this relationship and prioritize it.

But it sounds like what you're saying, Sam, is that moving forward, Like I'm aware of where I've kind of dropped the ball, and I am planning on doing things differently so and I might sort of start leading us towards some homework stuff.

So some things too start to have a think about and do before our next appointment.

But when I say absolutely, I absolutely do, but in the back of my brain says, but I don't know how.

Ahah.

Yeah great, And I think that's really important because this is where we need actual, tangible and specific I guess like action points of like Okay, this is what I want to do, but how do I do it?

And so I think that that's actually quite nicely leading into what I was thinking to set as a little homework task for both of you.

I'll split it into two.

So let's say for Emma, there's something there around you know, we've shut down from expressing your needs, right, So there was a time where you were expressing them, and then you've kind of withdrawn a bit and just sort of gone, okay, well whatever.

It's just easier to not have needs then to have them and then be let down.

So we're needing to try to reverse that a little bit, which is hard when it's the beginning and you haven't seen the action yet.

But starting to observe where are their needs, I start shutting down, are there things that I would like to ask for or that I would like to put out there that I need from Sam that I don't you know, So I think having a sort of reflective piece and whether you just like journal it down or just kind of have some dot points, but yeah, I would be probably trying to identify, like what do I need more from him?

And really specific tangible stuff.

It could be like not coming home past this time.

It's not about setting curfews, but it's around ensuring we have at least one night together or having a date night or a date day once a month, or you know.

It just been like really specific and actionable things, not just kind of like I want to go out more.

I want to yeah, make him.

Yeah, yeah, no, I understand that.

Yeah yeah, and and not.

And you might have to push through feeling like you're these aren't orders that he has to do, these are just your needs, and then you'll be presenting them to him, and of course Sam can go, look that's not really going to work, or I don't like that, or can we come up with the It's not you just dictating what you what you want, but I do want you to put the needs out there without filtering them through.

Is this reasonable?

Is this fair?

Is this okay?

Myself is just there?

These are what I'd like if it was a perfect well, this is what I want from my partner, yeap.

And being able to share that with Sam, with obviously the understanding that he is able to kind of contribute and create a collaborative conversation about it.

It's not just oh yes sir, yep, yep, but.

Go do that.

It's not that yeah, I'll work on that.

Yeah.

So that's on your side, and I think for Sam because that will help give him some clarity as well around like what what does Emma actually need from me that's going to matter?

Yeah?

And Sam, on your end of things, I think it's really looking at what am I prepared to change about the way I interact with my work?

What am I prepared to cut down?

What am I prepared to have a firm about, like start putting real, specific, tangible things on your end, and I would be writing a list of those things of what am I no longer going to be doing or what am I going to do from now on?

Differently, and what you said before about carving out that time, what yeah, a in a standard week, what time am I going to make my untouchable time, like this is just me and Emma.

Yeah, so I think it's starting to look at what am I prepared to do differently.

Yeah, and then maybe I might even add you another piece Sam, you get a little extra.

But my why, because I think that's important is the why, Like, because that's the bit that gets lost in the small instances of like, oh, it's fine, I'll just go out for a beer or whatever, and I mean, yeah, that's fine, but if it's the one time you were meant to spend with Sam, then that's not really fine.

Yeah, So I think the why is important.

So I'll get you to just kind of do a little like dot points of why do I need to be prioritizing this?

And it is going to the worst case because it is you know, there may not be a partner around in my time into years if I don't do this, or because Emma feels lonely.

I love that, Like that lines up with like sort of sitting here reflecting on what we've talked.

About, Yes, and then action points are like, right, what do we implement?

Right, That's why I brought up that whole I say, absolutely, but this is what I'm thinking in the back of my mind, yes, like I do want to do it.

Yeah, yeah, there's there's a part of my brain going, yeah, but you're not going to have the time or money or you know what, I mean to do that.

So it's getting rid of those thoughts and going right.

If you say you're going to.

Do it, you need to let's get the calendar out, let's look at it at getting rid of other problems, get rid of those problems to make sure that's happening.

Yeah.

So yeah, and it could be something that you know, you start on your own, and then it could be something that you even bring something that you bring Emma into and be like, hey, I'm trying to where do you think I can cut back or where do you think this could?

Yeah?

Yeah, if you find yourself getting stuck.

And something when you said about that whole you know, talk about what Emma needs, Like we all have needs, but like you said, like write them down, like put them specifically, and then we'll work out what is achievable and what's not.

And same for me, like, well, you know I want to do these things.

I need action to go right.

How is that going to happen?

What do I have to get rid of to make that happen.

Yeah, thesees, this is what I wanted to do.

I can see how I'm sort of going to start to.

Marry up, which is yeah, so I think otherwise it all kind of just floats around in this vague abyss.

Of like yeah, which is where we're going at.

Like we've had conversations, we've done lists, and we've tried to do things, and it's like, yeah, but we've never actually action things like.

But we're also very good at china address things short term.

Yeah, it's trying to Yeah, we've never.

Put us in the scene and we've just gone, yeah, well we'll fix this little profit send that jumps up.

But it makes it easy to fix little things.

We'll fix it in the moment and not it's what we have had to do it toget.

And now it's really yeah, that's it, isn't it?

Not doing the short term fixes.

But actually this might be a big pain in my ass right now, like you know, having to push back on things with work or you know, things that might cause me stress right now.

But actually once it all gets set into a routine and people stop expecting this much of me, you know, Like so there might be a little bit of things get worse before they get better, not between the two of you rather, but maybe more on your end, Sam, in terms of the boundaries around work stuff and maybe but that's even something that you know, see how you go in in your planning and when we when I see you next time, we can kind of review and sort of what, Yeah, did some things get in the way.

Did you find that it was difficult to cut back anywhere?

Or what with the barriers?

Like why why didn't you do it?

Why did you do it?

Like that will be it's a way to also kind of keep people accountable this process, isn't it You have to pull back?

Yeah, okay, so we're feeling okay to leave it there for today.

Yeah, I was good.

Yeah, yell at each other.

No, no, and you look, you were welcome to you were welcome to it as long as it's not you're not.

Really we're not really yelling at each other.

People are we at the kids?

But we're not really yelling.

We're more just like you go over there and process, and I'll go over here and process.

We are always better talking with someone like you know what I mean.

It's less confronting when there's a third person or where we're talking about similar things.

I decided to assign Sam the homework of getting really specific and tangible around what he is going to be able to do to change the fact that he doesn't have much time for the relationship currently as it's been standing.

So I think he's been aware of the fact that he's not been prioritizing Emma and the relationship, but there's been something between that and the action point where there's something that's getting in the way.

So I'm hoping if we get him to really reflect on, Okay, what are the changes I'm willing and able to do, then there will be a point to refer back to for accountability if for some reason he doesn't or isn't able to action on those points.

And for Emma, I asked her to list her needs, I think number one to help her actually get clear on what is it that isn't being meant for me and to help her get a bit more comfortable with the idea of actually having needs and being able to express them.

And that's not forcing anybody to meet them, but it is saying that for me to feel happy and fulfilled in a relationship, I need this stuff to be at least attempted to be met, or if it can't be, it needs to be at least discussed.

I often see couples who've been together for a while find themselves losing their routines and rituals and habits that they established in the beginning when things were going really well.

And I think this is something that is showcased with Sam and Emma's relationship here, where the things that they were doing in the beginning, like the camping and the hikes and the movies and weekends away were the things that actually created the foundation for the relationship that they have.

And when life got in the way and all of those activities and the quality time and connective time was taken away, it makes sense that the relationship starts to become disconnected and more distant.

So the way to I guess battle this would be to ensure that we keep these particular rituals or routines in place, and they can change.

We can have you know, over time, our interests can change or our financial positions can change, so we don't have to do the exact same things, but the rituals and routines need to remain there, even if the actual activity is different that we do together.

I think the way I'm feeling about that session is that it was nice to get what I've been sort of I guess, stewing on a little bit out.

I think sometimes when you're in the moment in your relationship, you've got all these thoughts and you go to save them, or you go to sit down with your partner and you go, ohkay, like this is how I'm feeling.

But it just for me, I haven't been able to get that out.

To sit there and voice it properly and to be listened to felt really cathartic, I guess, or just you know, like a bit of a weight off my shoulders.

I'm looking forward to the homework.

I think that it's nice to have tools in place.

Being able to do this, I feel like will enable me to kind of feel like there's a little bit of a solid ground to what we're doing, and it'll be able to quantify this kind of like, Okay, we're working towards something.

We're actually trying to nut this out, and we're trying to.

Get ourselves in a better position than what and that's the whole reason we went into this.

I hope that by the next session we've locked in maybe some quality time together.

That doesn't feel for Sam that it's forced, that it's actually okay.

I see the value in us carving out that time to spend together and putting aside those things that you know maybe he would prioritize previously and say, no, actually this, this is a priority.

I'm feeling about that session like really beneficial for both of us.

And then even just through the whole process, like Emma and I just burn able to draw out things of each other of where we want to end up, what we've got to fix, and yeah, just I felt comfortable and then just engage with the questions and was like having a conversation with someone in news.

So the home we've been said, I'm actually like as a school teacher or ex school teacher, I was like, that's the perfect homework, as in, when you have a conversation or set a task, you're like, I know what I want to get out of this.

Yeah, So I felt like when Sarah asked us to do the things both of us need to do, I was like, I felt like, that's what we need to do.

Any forum where I talk more than I usually do, particularly about us.

I think Ama would be thinking this is going the right direction, and I think I'm really positive about us unpacking what's what we've unpacked with Sarah.

I think we'll challenge each other on not just letting it be a moment or an evening and let's go back to it next week.

I think we'll both challenge each other on our homework.

Any I feel like we built a connections Sarah.

My hopes for Sam and Emma is that they find a routine and system that works for them, where it feels balanced, where they're having their own individual needs met as well as their couple needs, and if little bumps do come along the way, that they now have a system in place that helps them to be able to talk about it, problem solve together, and figure.

Out what needs to change or be tweaked.

It sounds like they have the same vision for a really nice future together and it would be a shame that these really solvable issues would get in the way of that.

If they keep working at the communication piece and get a good structure in place, I don't see why they won't have a really lovely retirement on the beach side.

The second part of Salm and Emma's session comes out in a few days, but if you don't want to wait, Mamma Mia subscribers have early access to the episode in full right now.

Follow the link in the show notes to listen.

This Is Why We Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Nilsen.

The executive producer is Naima Brown.

Our studio engineer is Lou Hill, sound design and music by Tom Lyon, editing and sound design by Jacob Brown.

Additional production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine.

Our casting producer was Lisa Storer.

If this conversation has brought up any hard feelings, or if you just feel like you need a bit of help, there are links in our show notes to resources available to you right now, as well as how to connect with my practice Motivated Minds.

If you'd like to apply to beyond the next season of This Is Why We Fight, there's a link to the application in our show notes too.

I'm Sarah Bays.

Thanks for listening.