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The Invisible Woman still leaves quite the gap when she actually disappears, because you might not have seen her as she smoothed your path this morning to get out of the house in clean clothes with the full belly, petrol in the car, or charge on your card.

You didn't see her paying the bills that catch your Wi Fi on your Netflix streaming, remembered to renew your gym membership, make that doctor's appointment, refill your prescription, reminded you to call your sister for her birthday.

You were vaguely aware of her moving through the house, picking things up, setting things right, keeping things calm, making her work fit around what makes your will turn, putting herself at the end of every list, choosing to make other lives easier and brighter while hers fades into the scenery until she doesn't.

When the Invisible Woman packs her bags and buggers right off, suddenly the space she filled is blindingly clear.

Hello, I am Holly Wainwright and I am mid Midlife, Midfamily mid A rewatch of Shirley Valentine.

Excuse my language, but fuck I forgot to live my life.

This is the statement that popped into Monique Van Tulda's head on the day she decided to disappear, the mom to two almost grown up sons, wife to a man she'd been prioritizing for years.

It took the sudden loss of an old love to shock her into what she now calls the great untethering.

As you're about to hear.

Soon after that, Monique decided it was time to take a grown up gap year.

She went away to change some light bulbs, and she didn't come back for months.

Her sons call it the time my mum got mad and took off.

She calls it the decision that changed her life and saved her from a divorce and made her family see her value clearly, maybe for the first time.

Since then, Monique has written a book called The grown Ups Gap Year and built a community of midlife women who want to escape their lives for a few weeks, a few months, for a year and travel, or to change their lives and study, or to renegotiate their lives and decide that their relationships need to change.

Basically, women making a bid for freedom, and she couldn't have done it at a better time.

Women make up seventy one percent of solo travelers these days, and Monique knows why.

Now She's got a podcast and a site by the same name, grown Up Gap Year, and is regularly on TV espousing the benefit of the FLT.

But the real secret, as she explains in this interview, is not settling back into sameness when you get back from that gap year.

Manique's marriage, for example, was never the same again, and thank god for that, Monique, thank you so much for being here with me.

Olly, it's a pinch me moment.

Oh wow.

I want to start with the statement that runs through a lot of what you're doing with the grown Up Gap Year, and that is you don't want to get to the end, and your epitaph to read fuck I forgot to live my life?

Absolutely.

Can you tell me about your moment when you are like, am I living my life?

Yes?

Well, it was a sad moment.

It's quite a strong statement, and I think it probably took me about a decade to get there.

I'll go back a little bit.

We now have a wonderful conversation, a raw not a rumble about menopause and perimenopause, but that's very new, very new, and I am nearly fifty eight.

And in my forties I went through a period of time where I thought, something's going on.

Why am I not coping so well?

And GPS had no training, I had no experience in what I might be experiencing.

And my mother might have said to me metopause and I said, please go away, I mean my.

Forties, and because we didn't know what it.

Meant, and that just made me feel like I was going to be old and I wasn't ready for that.

The only thing we used to know about it really is and I don't know about your mom, but my mom was quite like, oh, you'll be fine, tough it out.

But also that's what happens when you get old well, and you do not feel old in your forties.

No, we're not, No, well, you're not well.

We absolutely went on.

I had a couple of incidences in my forties where you know, I was very capable driver, and I used to drive all over the state for work, and then I was driving through the Sydney Harbor Tunnel once to drive the kids to rowing, and I thought, my god, I'm not going to make it to the other end.

I am having a panic attack.

I feel like there are lights and this is all closing in on me.

And I thought, you know, pull yourself together, And actually I felt quite ashamed.

I didn't tell anybody.

And I spent the next ten years circumventing the city, dropping the boys to rowing all over the town, going across the Harbor Bridge without going in the tunnel, without going in the tunnel, and everyon would say, why you're not going in the tunnel.

So it was quicker this way, and you know, I'd go to the GP and so on and so forth.

So anyway, that was that, and just kept on going, and you know, we're busy with children, and we're busy with life and work and partners and etc.

Etc.

And then we were in COVID.

And it was a hard time for everybody, although it sort of slowed down a little bit as well.

So you know, waxed and waned, and I had two sons going through the HSC back to back online and that was interesting.

And then I had news of a friend who had passed and it wasn't because of COVID, it just happened to be smack bang, you know, towards the tail end of and I think the human spirit can survive until there's one more thing and it doesn't really matter what the thing is.

Although that was a shockingly hideous thing, but that was my thing.

That's when I just fell apart, you know, almost didn't leave bed for about a month, and you know, walked around the block playing November Rain oh, and you know, had my husband sticking his head in, going like, I'm really sad for you, but like, this is another bloke.

And this friend was a you know, forever friend and a long ago love and we weren't in each other's lives.

You know, he had a family.

I had a family, but it was just the thing.

So it's interesting when your past collides with your present.

It is.

And also it's interesting when news like that, even though it's not the kind of grief that would affect you day to day, because as you say, it's not like there's a hole presented in your life by this person's passing because you weren't in each other's lives at that moment.

But there's something about this time of life that a moment like that can just shock you so much because it's a cliche, but you're very aware of our mortality in that moment, and also that a part of your story has gone.

It really shakes.

One hundred percent and that's it.

That is absolutely it.

So devastated, very sad.

And then you know, about a month later, I you know, I thought, oh gosh, you know, we used to have so much fun.

I was a really fun person, used to live a life in technicolor, and we all do in our twenties and thirties, I mean really, And then I just thought, I am sad, sweaty and really pissed off most days, and is this it?

You know, the kids are going to finish school eventually, please, you know, we'll come out of COVID, and then what on earth am I going?

You know, what does life look like?

What am I going to do?

Cross with my husband because he had a career renaissance and he was booming and wonderfully loving sick, he was loving himself sick.

And you know, we'd had a conversation prior to getting married about you know, raising children and expectations as much as you could twenty five years ago.

But you know, there was an expectation it would be a fifty to fifty come to the table to look after things, and I'd gone into the slow slide of I was chief executive emotional officer of everything to do with the family.

And it was never the parenting and the doing that was the thing that stuck in my craw.

It was the extended family.

That sort of rippled.

You know, Moniques working from home, Monique's freelance, you know, she can take on whatever it is x YZN, And so all of a sudden, his elderly parents became your responsibility.

Beautiful people since past rest in peace.

But it wasn't what I felt like I signed up for.

So anyway, friend passed and about a month later I went walking as I do every morning, and I passed a group of elderly women.

And I say elderly because I don't like to use that word, but honestly, they're probably in their nineties.

They were older women, and they were having so much fun down at the beach.

They were jumping in the water, they were helping each other get out, and they were having a ball.

And I thought, I want some of whatever they're having.

This has got to stop.

Something's got to change.

And I loved swimming and I hadn't for a long time.

So the next morning, it was a July, freezing cold winter morning.

I got up early.

The kids were, you know, still at school.

Everyone was asleep, and I went for a swim in the ocean and I just looked down and there were fish and there were sand, and I felt free.

And that was the point at which I thought, righty ho, if you see k I'm not going to let my epitaph read I forgot to live my life.

And that was a very long version of a should have been a shorter armwer.

So that's it.

It's what you've done is encapsulated.

I think for very many people listening to this will be nodding.

They're going, yeah, like things started out in my relationship with my family, like we're both doing this, we're all doing this, and then suddenly, hold on, how come I'm holding everybody's emotional well being in my hands?

All of the drudge?

And where am I on this list?

So does this bring us to the bit that, as you say in your book, is that time mum got mad and took off?

Is that what happened?

Yes, indeed, I like to call it the great untether Ring.

Yes, my family call it the time Mum got mad and took off, So.

Yes, it does well.

It was actually that was probably six months later because you know, i'd sort of the kids got through school, and I think we all see a bit of a finish line for our offspring.

At the end of school.

You sort of think, oh, you might breathe a little bit and there might be a bit of me time.

There might be a bit of us time if you're coupled.

And then that didn't happen because kidults tend to stay at home and in the nest for longer.

And I mean, honestly, they're eighteen.

I'm hardly kicking them out, although I think, you know, the inker barely dried and my sister and I certificate, you know, leaving certificate at school, and it was like, you know, we were showing showing the door, have a lovely life to see you at Christmas.

But anyway, and so I probably hadn't spent any time sort of really thinking about what on earth came next, and I was pooped.

So yes, that's when Mum took off.

So it started with the swim that day of you almost just reclaiming a bit of joy for yourself a bit of this is who I was.

This is remember you love swimming, you know, just that kind of thing.

Yes.

And then over that period of time to that six months of when you went actually i'm going I'm leaving for a while, did the idea start bubbling in your head?

Because I think am I right that in the first instance, you've got a holiday house.

Yes, in Queensland?

Yes, And is that where you're from?

Look?

Yes, and no I was born in New Zealand.

We don't need to go in one ak's whole bio.

But yes, my family had lived in the wit Sundays for about thirty five years, so yes.

Yes, So that's kind of like an area that you've got a connection torect So you had a holiday house up there.

And my understanding is at the beginning of this the whole Mum got Madden took off.

You just I'm going there.

That's what I'm doing.

I'm going to change some light bulbs.

And then you didn't come back for six months?

Was it like that?

Absolutely?

Did you plot it?

No, it was not premeditation.

It taught me through that I quite catually.

I actually went with Mum.

It was the first flight out of Sydney after COVID and I remember taking off looking out going.

Oh, so we'd been literally trapped.

I mean different Obviously, listeners to this will be in different states.

Our Melbourne listeners will be like, trapped, you don't know the meaning of the world.

Wa listeners will be like, what are you talking about?

But in Sydney we'd been literally on lockdown for quite some time at that point.

And when they opened the borders to Queensland, you were like, gone, is that?

Did you know you were going to do that?

Well?

I knew I was going to go and check the house hadn't been for about four years, I suppose at that point, and took Mum with me so she could go and see her friends.

And then Mum went home after about five nights, and I was booked to go home the next day after locking up the house, and sat and watched the sunrise and had a hot coffee, and you know, I sort of say after years of lukewarm everything, and it was the hot coffee, quite literally, the hot coffee that I just thought, I'm a grown up.

My children are.

Through school, my husband as happy as can be.

I'm not thrilled with things right now.

And where am I hurrying to and why am I hurrying?

And everybody is safe and cared for, and I'm going to stay.

So I drove to.

The post office and got a post office box number, which was my life in the sand, which hence the mum got mad bit because really it sounds mad.

Was my hus We're going to send me a postcard saying have a nice time, I'll see you.

I don't know when you come back from under a palm tree.

I had zero plan, Holly.

It was ridiculous, but yes, that's what I did, and then I stayed.

So did you call and say I might be another week, or did you I might be another month?

Or did you like how did it?

I'm just imagined the temptation.

I think many of us can relate to that idea of I don't want to go home.

I'm not ready to go home.

And then you're like, I'm actually not going to get on that plane.

Did you call them and say I'm not getting on the plane?

Oh, I just I turned my phone off.

I sent an email.

Look it's breath taking, it really is.

And then look, you know we had we proceeded this part of the conversation with hormone, so who knows, But really I probably wasn't in my right mind.

I just I was.

Really tired and responsible people don't tend to do these sorts of things.

I know that, but I just wanted to feel Can a fifty eight year old woman say naughty?

But I wanted to say naughty again.

I just wanted to.

Feel like I was in control of my own decisions, that I didn't need a committee for every decision.

And I think I was just staking my claim to my own life.

And that was it.

And so I sent an email, and my husband did call my mother and say issue okay.

Mom said, well, when I saw her a day ago, she seemed to be pretty fine to me.

You know, do you need to know how to use the oven and the fridge?

Is you know foolish?

I'll come and show you once and then enjoy.

So your mom was on site with him, was very much on side.

That Did I call her?

Maybe I didn't, maybe I emailed her too, but she could read between the lines.

She could see that you obviously so.

And I have a fabulous husband.

He's lovely, but he's not particularly evolved as many of his generation, as in I can't cook.

You know, I don't know how to look after myself in that regards, and it's like, come on, you can read.

I think you can figure it out.

You can figure it out.

So you know, there's a thing called uber eats.

I don't know if you've heard of it.

Oh exactly, I don't know.

I figured it out anyway, So we'll get on to the rest of it later.

He has evolved since then, and it was very good for him too, So yes, sent an email, turned the phone off, took the phone calls, and later on probably in the week, and you know, everyone just sort of got on with it for a bit, and there was sort of I left hanging for how long it was going to be because I thought, look, maybe I'll just stay for a week and then I'll come back.

But I the week turned into.

About a month, and then I came home and I did feel the freezer, because you know, I thought that would be a nice thingible caring.

Well, I just thought, like, I'll show everyone what to do.

I possibly could have left a few instructions, because you know, if you handle a position, any sort of position, then you didn't you know, you do have a handover period and so you know I wasn't a responsible person in that regard, so I thought that'd be nice and then headed back because I could work from up there remotely, and I saw no good reason to return immediately I needed to.

It sounds great.

Sit for a minute.

I can't want to come to the Sundays with you, But tell me in that first month when you were literally just sort of as you say, you weren't necessarily in your right mind in terms of well, actually, the words you just used is responsible people don't do this kind of thing.

That's really interesting, because interesting it sounds like you had been being responsible, being the good parent, being the good wife for a long time.

What was that first month like?

Like, what did you do?

And did you how long did it take for your body and your mind to sort.

Of It was exhilarating because I guess I was from there.

I'd lived there for a couple of years in my early twenties.

You know, it was reacquainting myself with the community I hadn't been in for a long time.

And you know, we can get into the whys and wherefores, but you know, Sydney, where I live predominantly, was never my hometown.

It was always my husband's hometown, so I guess by default I just sort of slid into his life, I suppose, And so all of a sudden, I felt like I was reclaiming my past.

And it's interesting you get to a point where that's really comforting.

I think sometimes we spend a lot of time escaping or you know, seeking greener pastures, and sometimes it's quite used to come home to roost.

And I was pooped, I think, you know, everything every bit.

About me was frazzled, and it just sort of soothed, and you know, I got back into a fitness routine that I hadn't done for a long time.

I made food for myself.

I'd come back into the house exactly as I left the house.

I think that was the biggest thing.

That is one of the most glorious things.

Made my half of the bed only very nice.

You know.

Washing machine awa eating exactly what you want one hundred percent.

Washing machine went on once a week.

And interestingly, during the COVID period, a lot of the properties in our neighborhood had turned over, and there seemed to be about half a dozen of us in terms of us being women of about my age whose husband you know husbands lived elsewhere, and so I thought, the little community I have kindred spirits here, Maybe it's not just me after all.

And that was it, and I started sharing on Instagram.

I've always been on Instagram.

It's like my journal, I suppose, and we've got a nice community.

And I thought, look, I'll be a bit hesitant about this because you know, many of us are still in the trenches, and b it isn't an option for a lot of people.

But I don't know, maybe if I just start saying, hang on, just stop it.

Wherever you are, whatever your circumstances are, just stop for two seconds and think, where are you sitting on the list of priorities?

Yes, and lots of women said, keep running for us.

Let us know what it's like on the other side.

You know, we see a light now.

This is kind of cool.

And of course lots of us are talking about it now, and there's lots of wonderful books about menopause and women's experiences.

But at that point there was Eat, Pray, Love under the Tuscan Sun and Shirley Valentine.

And it wasn't till I returned that I thought, Oh, I.

Was Shirley, you were loved that movie so much, and yeah, it just wasn't un till I came back and sat down and started to write the book that I thought, Yeah, I loved Shirley and I was her.

So that's cool, that's great.

We'll get to all the different forms that are grown up Gatvia can take, because obviously, as you've already alluded to, you know, not everybody does have a holiday house to go to.

But we'll get to that in a minute.

Did your husband and your friends and your people in your real life in inverted commas?

Well, maybe it's not your real life, maybe the other version was your real life, But anyway, did they think he's leaving him?

Everything's falling apart?

This must be a crisis like what other people's feelings difficult to handle.

Look, I have quite a thick skin.

I moved around quite a bit as a child and had many many homes I think eighteen before I was twenty one, So that develops quite a thick skin and resilience that many people wouldn't.

And so of course this is a question that comes up quite regularly, and I have to say that if there were adverse comments, then it was water off a Duck's back.

Because I felt worried about God, no, not so much.

And that's all right.

And listen, you're not going to tell the story and put this out there if you are going to be devastated, because everyone does have an opinion on everything, as you know yourself.

Of course, what do you mean, spot, You know, I'm sure there people have lots of comments to say about everything, but that's okay.

Look a few girlfriends did say are you okay, so you know, dear beautiful, wonderful part of my tribe.

You know.

Still others would say are you having an affair?

And I'm like, oh god, I don't want anyone to touch me like a stranger.

No, thank you very much.

And then others would be like, well, you know, is this going to be a divorce?

And to be fair, my husband did breathe a sigh of relief because I think he thought maybe an expensive divorce was on the horizon, and so when he learned option that all I wanted was a bit of space for a moment, he was like, oh, phew, okay, fine, and then settled well into being probably a bachelor himself again.

You know.

We'll talk about the family in a minute.

But look, probably a few comments, certainly in the neighborhood that I moved back into, there were a few sort of oh gosh, he's up here for an affair, you know, keep your husband safe.

But I was just like, oh, yes, but that thing.

I looked around and I thought nothing had for me.

I'm not interressed into my books.

More of my conversation with Monique van Tolder about the moment that she realized she wasn't done and maybe she needed to extend this gap year after this break.

So, okay, so you at first it's a month, You go home, you restock the freezer.

What Because I think we can all remove ourselves from our lives for a long weekend of a yoga retreat with the girls, or a two week holiday if we're lucky or whatever.

But often when you get back to real life, it sucks you in again very quickly.

Yes, So what did you do to kind of prolong and push this change into something much more permanent?

Look, well, I did go further afield, and I kept on going for a long period of time.

How long?

With how long did you keep traveling?

Flick?

I was probably a way for about eight months, or told I do have family in Europe.

So I went to visit my dad and my sister, and that was only for a couple of weeks because again, you know, I didn't want to excuse my language, but I didn't want to take the piss, you know what I mean, Like I'd sort of felt better and felt reinvigorated, but.

Then I'd never had a gap year.

We're gen X.

No one ever asked what we wanted, or we didn't really ask that of ourselves.

You know, we went and sort of chose a path, and generally that's what we did and probably assume that's how it would always be.

So having tasted a little bit of freedom, it's like a bag of lullies, when do you stop?

And so I wanted to extend in Europe after I'd visited my family, and then again thank you COVID, there were no flights home.

So it was either stick to my flight, which was and again a couple of days time, here we go, sort of repeat of the prior running away, or it was in twelve weeks time.

And so I calculated very quickly that I could maybe stretch it to that I just have to be careful with finances and yeah, send another email home, and so I did, so I stayed for another twelve weeks.

Loved the idea if you're like almost adult, children and your husband are another one from mum.

No she's not coming back exactly.

Sorry.

It feels to me like you reclaimed your sort of courageous, adventurous self in this, because a lot of people didn't want to go anywhere during that period of time, you know what I mean.

There was like I might get stuck, I might get COVID like that, but no, you were running with it.

Well what I was.

Well, actually, that's interesting because the night before I left, I did put out on Instagram.

I think I'm feeling a bit unwell about this.

I think I've changed my mind.

I'm going to visit family, but I'm just not sure should we be traveling now?

Anyway, A lot of reassurance came back.

You know, my litmus test is always on Insta and the girls said just go.

So I did and that was fine.

And my son actually dropped me at the airport and it was a bit freaky Friday.

You know, he should have been going on his gap year, but it was mum, that was I mean, I didn't even gap year.

That came later.

That was when I was writing the book.

But it just it felt a bit in reverse.

And I did must say, when I was putting my suitcase on the counter, I wanted to call him and say, I've changed my mind.

I'm a bit of an old fool, you know, come and get mum.

I just you know, so even i'd been away for several months, but then because I was going further a few I did have that little moment of but once I got there, no, it was it was adventurous.

You know, it is so lovely to glimpse the you know, hedonistic teenage version of yourself, even if it's just for a couple of weeks, and it's so exhilarating.

And you know, I did silly things.

I went para jumping and I don't know, leaped off tall jetties into you know, deep oceans and just mad things.

I'm a bit of a physical I like to do some physical feats every now and then, and I hadn't done that for a long time.

In fact, that we don't.

You know, when you become a parent, you tend to be a little bit safer risk averse, quite sensible to Be's got to.

Be sensible and watching out for everybody else's risk assessment.

Exactly, exactly, so anyway, So I did all of those sorts of things, and then you just hung around.

And also how lovely to just have time to yourself, to walk around a new city, to go and sit in a cafe, to do whatever you want to do, you know, read books.

And it's the space.

It's the space and the freedom just to exactly sit in your own thoughts.

And you know, I didn't need to be anywhere.

I didn't want to be anywhere.

And it wasn't extravagant.

I mean I did a couple of lovely things that were, you know, probably pushing the boundaries of lovely things to do in terms of bucket list, but other than that, I just wanted to sit inside myself, walk, listen to podcasts and just yeah, right.

How did you know that the magic had happened and you could return to normal life?

Because I was ready to come back.

I really missed the family.

I mean I missed the family along the way, but not so much that I needed to come home imediately.

Was it you know they miss you?

They missed well, they did, look I think at first for them.

It was exhilaration because, let's face it, young adult men do not need mum hovering.

And you know, we live in an inner city home where things are pretty tired.

It was good for toddlers, but not great for four adults, and that is what it is, and that's not that unusual.

And so I think having a mother that didn't have a judging eyes of wise the towel and the bathroom floor, you know, they needed to grow up as well.

So I think that was healthy.

And my husband, look, you know, as I've already said, I was cross, and so.

He was probably really thrilled to be relieved of a cross wife that he didn't necessarily have to come to terms with on a day to day basis.

You know, if she was off doing whatever she was doing and going to come back feeling a lot better about things, where he was in for a special surprise.

I came back with all special idea, you know, all sorts of new ideas.

Do you think he understood?

You know how you said before that your husband is a great guy, but he wasn't particularly evolved.

You'd been grumpy, by your own admission, dealing with a lot of stuff, grief that he didn't really understand when you were like, I just need this time and space.

Do you think he got it?

No, well, yes he did because I gave him an Excel spreadsheet.

What was on the spreadsheets Actually, I think I'm going to develop an anti guilt calculator.

I need that, yes, because anyway we'll get onto sort of the litmus test in the community.

But I think he'd sort of raised his eyebrows a bit and sort of said, well, you know, I've helped too, and I'm like, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, And you know, the division of labor he felt was equal, which it wasn't.

And that's fine.

And as I've said, you know, parents always parents, and it's you know, look, we've got the studies.

I could have pointed him to that.

I don't know, is it doctor Lear in Melbourne, US, Or if if I'd known about Eve Rodsky's book, you know, fair Play, I could have given him the cards.

But I had none of those things.

So what I did was a little quick calculation on an Excel spreadsheet.

He's a financier, so he likes spreadsheets, and I said, look, you know, for services rendered, just have a little look at the bottom line.

There, and I think he felt a little unwell.

And I'd put it at the salary that I had left, and I thought that we'd agreed that I'd be staying in that role.

Yeah, I know, I love this black and white.

And then I was very generous because I didn't, you know, I would have been promoted, and so I didn't put it at the salary that I would have been at.

I was at, you know, twenty five years price.

I was really generous, but that was a big number at the bottom of the page, which actually made me feel a little unwell.

We won't talk about missed super and all of those things.

We can.

Yes, so yeah, no, So did he understand.

Look, I think he saw that and he saw the bottom line, and I was speaking his language, because you've got to meet people with that.

That's interesting, isn't it, Because you know, and I don't want to generalize, but this is a common story when a woman does say, but you don't understand what I'm carrying here and what I've been carrying for a long time.

I mean not some guys will understand that in different ways.

But it was very smart of you to go, I'm going to express it to you in a way that you'll you will understand because this is your language.

And he probably looked at that number and went, yeah, go on holidays, exank, have a nice time.

I'm not going to much exactly, but that's a significant way to think about it, because what you'd given and contributed to the family over that time.

But you're right, it was not you weren't getting the benefit of that.

No, I mean other than obviously, look.

And again we've said, you know, look, this is never about parenting to become a mum.

My.

Boys are my best part of me.

I mean, they're superb.

I mean it's you know, it's exhausting, but that's fine.

And we've got a declining birth rate for a reason, and all of those sorts of things.

However, it's the extra bits of crap.

The tabs never close in your head, and someone needed to acknowledge that that was going to be there.

So anyway, that was his language.

So no, you know, you said before how you were caring for his elderly parents, or you were helping to care for his elderly parents had they passed by the time this happened, his father, had his mother had it right, So you'd kind of been through that, absolutely, and your parents were still, as you said, your mum was cheerleading you, yet very much alive all there.

You know, again, my parents were very very young.

There's almost a generation between my parents and his parents, so again the Sandwich generation, you know that there was that I could see that my parents at some point would get older.

My father lives overseas, so that's my sister will hopefully help him.

Otherwise I'll be on a plane.

But you have got that car.

Yeah, the double Wyman get care.

Which we all do, and it is a real concern.

But you know what, also, I think so as dad had passed, his brother had moved home to keep an eye on his mum, and so I think I probably saw a window there too.

I think that's what it was.

Kids had finished school and I should ave at this.

And this is for when children are older.

You know, nobody's taking off and running away.

And I've been very fortunate and there's been interest in the book, which is just lovely and it's an encouraging message, but it can also be discouraging because if you're in the trenches with young children, you're thinking, oh god, that's never you know, I'm never taking off.

I'm never doing any of that, and it's all different circumstances.

But we can talk about the bright side of exciting things later.

Yes, I do, and I do want to get to As I say, there's sort of different versions of a gap of call.

But my husband came to meet me.

Right.

I hubbed through Singapore.

When you come from Europe, you have to stop somewhere, and he said, I'm coming to meet you in Singapore.

So we had two nights together before we came back home, and that was lovely.

So that was his version of I really missed you.

He doesn't like to spend money that he doesn't have to spend, and hop on a plane and miss his golf and all of those sorts of things.

Got them.

He sounds like a cliche.

He's delightful if you're listening mine.

And so he did that and that was really lovely.

But there was apprehension on my part.

I'm like, hm, am I going to be absorbed back into the fold and back to square one?

Well, yeah, and That's what I'm interested in learning about because obviously this moment in time has set you on a different path, you know, which has led to the book and led to the podcast and led to a community of women who are doing similar sorts of things, which is what we're going to talk about next.

But it would have also been quite easy for you to come back and yeah, sure the kids don't need to get off to school every day, but there's still a certain amount of caring that needs to happen.

There's still a certain amount of house stuff that needs to happen.

Sure you could do a bit more work, but you know, you just sink back into who you were, and suddenly the space that was yours gets nibbled away by all the different responsibilities.

How did you make sure that didn't happen?

Well, look, I came back with a really refreshed state of mind, but still no idea what on earth the next bit was going to look like.

Because I was so busy having fun, i'd sort of put that in the back of my mind.

And so this was the gap year, like the equivalent of a Kentique tour and.

Worry about the worry about the credit everything else later exactly anyway, never thought about what I valued, and I didn't do any of that kind of work, I suppose, and I had a loose thought.

That you know, there are some things that I really just don't want to compromise anymore on.

And I had didn't have values.

I didn't know what this word meant.

That came later when I did some upskilling.

I suppose, but just loosely thought.

I felt free.

I liked that.

I felt adventurous.

I liked that.

And my well being.

I just feel good.

I'm sleeping better again, I'm moving, I'm eating well.

I don't feel kind of contented, and I hadn't felt that for a long time.

So all right, let's see what we can do when we get home to you know, put some boundaries in place.

So to answer your question, boundaries nice big high fence around a few things that I just started to be able to say no, not for me right now.

Thank you very much for asking what kind of things.

You know.

I don't take early morning meetings anymore.

That's sacrisanct.

That's when I go for my run, my swim, whatever it is, yogurt, whatever I feel like doing.

If friends want to go out for dinner, they need to make a booking before seven pm.

I want to be in bed.

I want my sleep.

This I mean that sounds so triped, but it's just so important.

I just put a fence around those sorts of things.

And in the household.

I mean, gosh, I sound like such a dreadful mother.

But you know, the boys have got it easy there at home.

Oh no, But I just I came home and I made it really clear that it was mommy and Daddy's home, and they were young adults, and they were welcome to stay as off, you know, for as long as they liked, and of course it's their home.

However, needed to respect our boundaries took a while, because you know, it's really easy for a young man to slide past a dishwasher and going, well, I think someone else will undo that one.

What's in the fridge, I might just munch in and you know, eat everything out and not worry about who are so we just you know, those sorts of things had to happen, which is every household.

Because breaking them up to the fact that they're not little children anymore.

All of that, which is really hard because if you're still sleeping in your childhood bedroom, it's very hard to cut the umbilical cord and just go no, okay, it's.

Funny when your when mum in particular has always picked up the towels how to wind at you, but ultimately empty the dishwasher.

You know, yeah, because you're just like, I don't want to have another fight or whatever it is.

It takes a while for them to go, oh, no, she means it, she absolutely.

And then I also decided that I didn't want to live full time with my husband anymore, and so that very fortunate family old shack place that we have, I decided I'd DeCamp there for several months a year and do that.

And so I was able to fandangle work because I did do some training and and sort of was able to work remotely basically.

And then it became Dad's problem, Solf.

The boys weren't rising to the occasion.

It was interesting.

All of a sudden he rose up and came into himself and started making rules and you know, placing boundaries on things in the household that previously just sort of slid by because someone else had taken care of it.

We're going to catch So he was faced with it all.

So you know, this, all these interesting things we.

Can has he kind of enjoyed that.

No, I had get the phone calls.

Interesting, isn't it?

I know.

Interesting.

I'd get the phone calls, you know, X y Z young person is a pain in the big beat beat and I'm like, oh, really interesting.

Oh well I've got to go.

Sorry, got a deadline, got to go now.

So he's much more on board with all of those sorts of things.

And I think if I make suggestions then he tends to listen now and back me.

After this short break, I'll be back with Monique to talk about all the ways her gap year has made her marriage better without wanting to get too personal about this.

Has having that distance for you and the fact that you spend some time away and all those things, has it been good for the marriage?

Like?

Oh, is it more exciting because you take it?

You know, you don't take each other for granted so much?

Oh what distance makes the heart growth?

He was like a brother.

When I left, it was like a get away from me, like you're nice and everything, but you know, seriously, and I said, you know, I didn't want an expensive divorce.

However, oh it was very boring.

You know again, you know, he was having this career in naissance.

He loves his golf.

He's got his mates from when he was at preschool.

It's all very very nice, and it's very easy to be in a relationship and not make an effort anymore.

Yes, and because I'd reinvigorated myself and felt fitter and firmer and stronger and all of those sort of physical things.

But on the inside, I suddenly my confidence just you know, came back again.

Yes, I thought, I think you might just want to pull up your socks in many ways as well, so you know best you do, and so did.

But yes, no, I love him now.

I mean I always loved him, but I really love and like him now because I can see that he's made a huge effort.

And you know, it takes quite a brave man to be comfortable with the fact that your wife, who has mothered you basically for the previous twenty five years, has splashed your life over, you know, several hundred pages in a book and putting it out there for national conversation if anyone chooses to pick it up and be able to roll with it and going yeah, that's fine, that's fine, you know, and really come to the party.

So yes, I think it's great because well, I mean, I think it's going to lots of levels, but one of the things that's interesting about that part of it, about the relationship part is there are very many women in midlife who get to the moment that you were at and that we you know, we're going to talk about now, like the different choices people make, but marriages and relationships fall a part of that time all the time, and very often from the woman's instigation if it's a traditional intersexual marriage, because she is literally going, is this it grade of I am ready to change things, mix things up, live my next act, and you're still the guy who's just doing what he did.

What I like about your solution, your elegant solution, is that there are different modes of marriage, There are different modes of relationships.

It doesn't have to all be this one speed.

Like when you've got little kids and you're raising them.

If that's what you're doing, then yeah, like there's there are boundaries in which you've got to live that are different.

But when you get to that point where the choice comes back, the choice doesn't have to be we break up, we stay together.

The choices can be look all different kinds of ways.

Absolutely, and it's keeping or finding or rediscovering whatever it is the me and the wei, and I think that's what we've managed to do.

He kept the me very frontline.

Me, I just had to rediscover mine, and then look, isn't it interesting too?

When I felt a lot better about myself, then he looked a lot better as well.

You see, isn't it interesting too?

Because and it just works that way as well, because I mean, you know, there's this sense of scarcity I think within a relationship, as in, no, that's my space and my time, or no, that's my space in my time.

You know, there's always this sort of tussle, and it's you know, you have.

Your financial conversations and we all come from different backgrounds and different pages.

But then there's also the you know, no, but you went to golf for six hours, where's my six minutes?

And so there's this that constant whatever.

So I think when you can put the me back in the way, be comfortable with that, and not everybody can.

I mean, you know, jealousy comes in insecurity, but then you know, is a relationship that can be saved anyway, So there needs to be a solid basis of trust.

I think.

So that's where you're you were at in your life.

You've come back you've re established the rules.

Now, a community has grown up around this now.

So the idea of the gap year takes a few different forms, right, Like, Yes, for some people, it's literally about travel, and travel is booming for older women.

I've seen stats about post COVID trips and adventure trips and hiking trips and all those things that we are a big market for that.

Yes, But also what you write about a lot in here is not necessarily about that, But it's about that reset, about looking at yourself and asking these questions, about making sure that you're not fuck I forgot to live my life.

Yes, tell me a bit about that, about the sort of questions you want people to ask, and what some of the solutions might look like.

I've said not necessarily about jumping on a plane, for sure, And look, I'm an EBB and flow person.

As we've discussed, I don't think about things too often.

But I think when you're tired, it's really handy to have somebody to say this worked for me and it might work for you too.

So a bit of methodology or something like that.

So I recommend that women treat themselves like a project, which sounds banal, except if you see yourself in the abstract, you're more likely to carry through because we've just established that most of us put ourselves at the bottom of you know, whatever list it is that you know that we're talking about, and so you know, we've all taken on projects before school, projects, work projects, whatever projects.

And so I think if you just start ticking things off, have a think about what do you value?

Go back to the basics.

Where do I see myself?

What kind of little old lady do I want to be?

You know, to my point of earlier about the women on the beach, you know, I want to be in vim and vigor and healthy and strong.

So if I want all of those sorts of things for my future, what do I need to do now to lay the groundwork?

And then it can just be chipping away, you know, small steps just to do that, and then you feel so empowered because you're actually doing something for yourself and you don't need to make some great pronouncement to the universe that you know, fist on the table.

You know, this is how it's all going to be around here.

You can just have this little secret to yourself almost because not every partner will come on board and you know, there are a lot of solo mums that I speak to as well, so you know, there's no one to tell then.

But I think if you just have this little secret idea or project that you just bubble along, and then you can at least when opportunity presents itself, you've got an idea of the sort of possibilities that are open to you, and you can be creative with your future.

And I think that's what it's about.

We're going to live longer, yes we are, and so tell me what that might look like.

So there are some great bits in the book where you talk about ask yourself these these questions.

What are some of the sort of things you think women need to ask themselves?

Okay, so you know, well, of course it starts with finances, doesn't it really, because financial security for all of us in older age is imperative, but also it can be a bit shaky too.

We often don't think about it for it like we pushed it away and push it.

It's boring, it's frightening, it's all of those things.

So yeah, look, and then I think you need to get some some advice from a professional if it comes to that.

So you know, that's number one, and then just think about the sorts of things that are most important to you, and well being has got to be up there because if we are living this long life, so then you know where are you on your health barometer?

You know, I you stern, I joke, but I would spend more time I'm at the vet and more money on the vet for our pets then I would on myself.

So you know those sorts of things, and then you know, yes, of course travel comes into it, but also who's your later in life tribe?

Is there anyone you need to bid farewell to?

Do you need to welcome some new people?

And so all of those pillars which are so well studied now and you know you can read about it in my book or all you know, thousands of books are out there, all of the sorts of things that make us happy in life.

So it's almost like reverse engineering the next bit our second act.

You know, where do you want to be and what do you not want to regret?

That's really interesting about your tribe and also curating that because changing is always confronting for other people.

Like when you decide I'm going to change some things, whether it's health things, whether it's relationship things, whether it's you know, your boundaries, whether it's where you live, whatever, it's always confronting for the people who believe they know you the best and who are close to you.

It's always confronting if you stop drinking, what your friends keep going, or if you're you know, whatever it is.

Yeah, have you had experience and sway you've had to sort of go?

Okay?

In order for me to get to where I need to be, I have to shad some people and or have you heard about that good ways of doing that?

Both?

Yes?

Yes, I mean, look, some sort of natural attrition.

I think you know, you can have school parent friends which naturally fall by the bye because you may not have been in each other's orbit or chosen to be in each other's orbit, but for you know, the school gate, so that takes its a natural course.

And then yes, there are other friends who you know, maybe they don't like the new version of you, which is you know, maybe the new version of you is the old version that's reimagined.

And that's fine too.

So no, look, I haven't had to have any solid conversations with anybody in relation to that.

You know, maybe friends over the years who had partners that are a bit ick that you sort of kind of don't want to be in that space.

But that's fine.

It sort of takes care of itself.

But yes, no, absolutely, I do have lots of women contacting me saying, you know, they've had to do this X, Y Z, And then I think you handle it however you want to handle it.

But I think honesty is the best policy, because the whole point of this is just to simplify your lifestyle, streamlined things.

And you know, I have a sibling that I don't speak to very much anymore, and that's probably part of this.

We love each other dearly, we just don't need to be in each other's space right now.

And so there weren't any.

Words you've made peace with that you don't feel like, well, I have should really call them?

I should really do?

You know when you do?

And then you know, birthdays and Christmases and things like that, and that's all very nice and very pleasant.

But you know, I think you get to this stage in life where there's a lot of water under the bridge for a variety of reasons.

And I think I came to the realization not so long ago.

I can have lots of great ideas for other people.

I can have great ideas for myself, but I can't solve every problem.

And I think you sort of as a parent, you'd sort of tend to get into this mindset of I have to solve everything.

You can't solve everything, and you can't solve how other people are going to feel about you.

I mean, isn't that Mele's book?

What is it?

Let them?

Yes, let them, that's really them.

Let me.

Yeah, that's the whole thing.

Was like, I can't force other people to change you talk about when it comes to the well being stuff, you say you can just begin to change little things in that regard, Like five things I think you say at one point in the book.

So you know, maybe just go to sleep half an hour earlier, Yes, maybe you know, just try five days of eating meals that you cook or whatever it is that kind of stuff.

What are some of the main things that you you did that begun to make you feel strong and vibrant again after to your words, feeling well exhausted?

Look, weights are always done, it is, and look I'd been doing weight since I was nineteen, so I'm no stranger to the weights room.

A lot of midlife women though, are just discovering myself included.

But that's exciting for you because you don't need to do much to see, you know, to feel the difference, whereas I kind of really needed to up the ante.

And you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger would have been proud probably to see some sort of difference.

But for me, being strong is so important because and it's not a fallacy.

It really makes you mentally stronger because if you feel like you can protect yourself if you fall.

You know, I had this vision.

I don't want to fall off the loo and have my boys have to hoist my neckers up around, you know whatever, because I can't push myself up in years to come, and that is down the track.

But down the track comes soon enough, and you need to lay the groundwork now.

But you know I can fend somebody off if they come and try and attack me.

Good luck.

And then yes, it helps with sleep, It helps with our metabolism, it helps with the whole midlife middrift.

Whatever you know, you choose your thing, it really does help.

So I would say that's needs to be number one.

Sleep sort your health, because you know, if you're not sleeping, and your health sort of baseline isn't sorted, you know, hormones and so on.

All of that first, and then strength number one.

Number one, let's get back to the gap years.

You've started this.

You've got a community.

You run on your website, you run people's stories of doing the Camino or tell me about some of the ventures that the midlife gap yere ladies are having.

They're so wonderful.

And also I should say, nobody's taken a year nobody, and it's probably.

Which is a shame because you look at I know, I mean a year is a lot, but yes, two weeks here three exactly, so nobody has.

And look, my working title was how to run away Another hand in midlife hents and I should have stuck to that, but mom said, no, go the gap year.

Now.

I think Gayer is great.

It's got shelf appeal, hasn't it really?

So yeah, And also I think it's got the right spirit, which is why is the gap year only for young people before they've even got anything to escape from, you know, except maybe their HSC exactly.

And it's a year of you.

Basically, it's a year of you.

You don't have to be away for you at home, So what sorts of things.

So, yes, Anna was a wonderful contributor to my book and I met her.

I met her online and she runs a fantastic foody sort of Filipino community in Sydney.

And she woke up one day and thought, I've always wanted to do the Camino, but it's never been the right time.

And she's in a really traditional relationship where she sort of did have to go to her partner and say, I want to do this.

Would you like to come with me?

And he said no, but thank you.

You go, but feel the freezer before you go, so you know what I mean, Like, maybe not, but you.

Know, anyway, need to learn how to cook.

I know, I know, but you know.

Again, you choose your battles, and you know she loves cooking.

She's happy to do that.

And so she took off on a Catholic mission Camino where she knew nobody.

It was within a price range that was very doable for her, and she walked solo most days and then stayed in free accommodation along the way, I think, and none took them, but anyway, so that was fabulous.

Other women have taken a sabbatical from their work and then come up to regions like where I spend part of the year and taken on a resort job because I always wanted to live in the tropics, but I wouldn't afford to go there.

But they take a sabbatical from their work and.

Then working the kind of job that I.

Love it, bartending, whatever, some of the work in the sailing club love absolutely love.

That's a great I know, it's a good idea.

It would also be very helpful because of those kind of regions suffo not having enough transient worker.

There's another job for someone, and if anyone's out there, I can't do everything.

Set up some sort of agency to do that.

Yeah, because you're talking about responsible, skilled, very capable people one percent.

Yay, Well we'll note that down.

Yes.

But also, and on that point, I have a local taxi driver friend who wants to go home to his family in Morocco and he needs someone to house it and drive his cab for three months.

See there's something else.

Yes, take another sabbatical.

So again you need to have an employer that is, you know, flexible.

I suppose you'd be able to take some time off.

However, I think it is sensible for that to happen.

Others have gone back to UNI and they've called that part of their gap here because you know, again taken time off work and gone back to study and change their career direction as well.

Others have gone and bought homes.

You know, some women's husbands have passed and one of them bought a farm house on a Greek island and you know, live some dreams and that sounds, you know, and it all sounds very very privileged and that you need to have a lot of money to do so, but you don't.

I mean, my mother god Lover worked very very hard, but wasn't necessarily financially able to do many many things.

And I remember when her and her best friend were in their fifties, they both had divorces, which weren't expensive because you know, neither of them ended up with super and they had to work well into their sixties and seventies.

But you know, they would do things like take a swag and go hiking and go in the middle of Australia and drive and you know, laugh and be like Thelma and Louise and just have a great old time, or go hiking holidays in New Zealand and all sorts of different things.

So I think the only thing you're limited by is your imagination.

And there are so many online communities.

Now, yes I've got a little fledgling one, but if you google, you know, how on earth can I get out of here?

What do I do if I want to run away?

Oh, it's wonderful.

It's just so many supportive women.

There's that all adage of course about wherever you go, there you are, And I feel like, yes, that's why.

Throughout your book, it's also about doing the inner work, like because you are as lovely as it would be to be in a farmhouse on a Greek island.

If you are miserable and dealing with all kinds of resentments and issues in trauma, then you still are in a farmhouse on a Greek island.

But it's very much about I love that idea that this is more about a year of you.

So what do you need to address?

What do you need to fix to get this.

Next part of life exactly more?

On your tweets only get one shot at it, And it's so trite to sort of say that we know that it's not a dress rehearsal.

But it's really easy to forget that when you're in the mire of trudge and life just looks like, oh god, another day, you know, another Monday.

But look, I think when you come out the other side of parenting, when you're able to say, Okay, I ticked that career box or I didn't tick the career box, and I want to go for another one, and I've got more energy left.

I don't know.

Give yourself permission?

Is that the right word to use.

Just go for it.

You know, you get one shot.

Just give it a go.

And dreadful things happen to all of us, and we don't need to go into that.

But oh my god, you know I've had horrible things happen, as we all do.

Once you get to this age and stage, things do.

I always say that this part of life, it's like the big things happen.

You know, you lose parents, you lose friends.

That health crises are often more serious, like it's real stuff, but it also can make you recalibrate.

Galvanizing.

I think having the runway shorter ahead the mihind is galvanizing, and then you can.

Choose how you do that.

And some of us listening.

Just don't have the energy to do that right now, and that's fine, but just know that there's possibility and just be creative.

I think two things I want to ask you before we go.

One is about ageism, because I think, yes, one of the things that's interesting, and one of the things that made me want to make mid in the first place, was the paradox that just when we're in this point of our lives where we have never been, we have never been more experienced, we have never been more emotionally intelligent, we often are looking after ourselves very well, the world kind of seems to decide that actually we are invisible and unimportant and maybe a little sad.

And when I say that, I don't necessarily just mean, you know, visible in terms of what we look like, although that's obviously massive spectrum and changing all the time.

But I mean just that, oh, you're a bit done, you know.

And it's this paradox of that, actually we are so not done.

Our engines are revving about whatever it might be.

Do you see that changing.

Do you think agism is thwarting women from taking these kind of next steps.

I do you think some of it is internalized and holds us back, both both sides of the coin.

So when I came back from overseas, I went mad with opportunity and possibility.

I went.

I used to run sales teams for airlines and hotels, but I always wanted to fly.

I wanted to be the flight attendant.

So I went for a job at Quantas and I thought, that's hysterical, or I'll be the oldest person there, and I wasn't.

So you know, there are some organizations that are employing people who are fifty seven years of age and taking them on as flight attendance.

It's wonderful.

It is quite interesting.

Phone call last week.

It's not for me anymore.

But yeah, so they're doing it now if you want to get in touch.

So there's that.

And then yet on the other side, you know, I wanted to, oh, I don't know, do all other sorts of things, and I felt like I was sort of being knocked back from an age perspective.

So yes, there is definitely agism there.

I think it's for us to put our hands up and say, actually, I'm not done, and I pick me, and so you're going to pick me too.

And if you don't pick me, then you know, I'm going to just make it happen.

So I approached and this's got nothing to do with age.

This is about picking yourself.

I approached so many publishers and maybe the book was well written, maybe it wasn't.

Nut's neither here nor there, but I knew I was at the zeitgeist moment absolutely, and I thought, no, this is this rumbles becoming a raw.

Let's grab it, man, and you're not proving your lolass.

So that's fine something, you know, I'm going to pick myself.

So I found a sweet little publisher and did a hybrid deal and off we went and made it happen.

And that was on my fifty seventh birthday.

And I had a dream of publishing since I was seven, so fifty years later, so I think we just need to pick ourselves.

And when you're feeling slightly downtrodden or you're feeling exhausted, it's really hard to say make yourself visible.

But it comes back to the basis, what do you value, what do you not want to regret?

How can you make yourself feel a little bit better every single day?

And then just grab it and then don't take no, just don't take no, if you feel like you really would like it to be a year goo and make that happen for yourself as best you can.

And not all of us want to be out and about, and some of us are choosing peace at this point, you know, But even that is a very deliberate act to choose it rather than just sort of let it happen.

Feel like this is what I need now.

And I think that's exactly it.

And that almost ends it.

It's like, what do I need right now?

If your preferred position in the stage of life is on the couch with a Kappa and a great book, please, that's you done.

Enjoy it, really enjoy it if that's what you want to do.

And that's the point, isn't it having the choice to choose yourself.

The version of you that you told us about at the beginning of this conversation, who couldn't get out of bed after that terrible news about your old friend who was feeling exhausted, who had a panic attack in the tunnel.

What do you think when you think about that version of you now and what would you say to her?

Oh, gosh, I don't feel sad.

That's where I was.

I think Throughout life, we have periods of growth and periods of what's her name, the wonderful author Catherine May wintering, We have periods of wintering.

That was my.

Wintering period, and far from regret, that was good because it forced me to stop and think and think about what's next.

Otherwise I might have just kept on coasting.

So you know, that's that.

I think life is just full of opportunities, and that was mine to stop for a second.

Who sad that my friend died bugger, but hope he's watching thinking go you.

Yeah, and I love I just love that idea.

If you're getting on the plane to change some light bulbs and coming back.

Look, it was exciting.

I'll give you my address.

Come please pleasure, Thank you so much money.

It's been great to talk to you.

Just delightful.

You are a delightful human.

I love this podcast.

And see if I've had this podcast, I may not have taken off.

So there you go.

Well, if that doesn't make you want to pack a bag, I don't know what does now.

Of course, we haven't all got a holiday house sitting there waiting for us to turn up to.

But I think that what Monique is talking about is taking a metaphorical gap year, even if you can't do the real thing, or a version of it that suits you, a road trip, a hobby that fulfills you, telling people in your house that things have got to change.

I think sometimes a grown up gap year could be as much a state of mind as an action.

But if it can be an action, let's bloody go.

Anyway, If after listening to Monique you are still hungry for stories of women who are changing shit up, I've got a few recommendations for you.

Eleanor Mills if you scroll back in our feed, Eleanor Mills was a high flying British magazine executive before she suffered what she calls a midlife collision.

Everything went wrong at once.

She lost her job, she had a health scare, all this stuff, and she had to reinvent her life.

That is a great episode.

Also have a scroll back to listen to Julie Cohen.

She's an author who realized midlife that she needed to come out as bisexual and everything in her world shifted.

Or listen to Rachel Ward tell us about how she decided it wasn't too late to become a farmer.

You'll find all those episodes back in your midfeed.

Thank you so much for being here with me today.

We'll be back in your ears next week.

Massive thank you to our talented team for putting the show together.

Senior producer of MID is Charlie Blackman, our Group Executive Producer is Nama Brown, and we've had audio designed by Tina Mattloff