Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.

Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond.

Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day.

In this episode, we talk to AFL star Libby Birch.

Birch has done something no other female or male player has done, winning three premierships at three different clubs with the Western Bulldogs, the Melbourne Demons and the North Melbourne Kangaroos.

Since joining the league in its inaugural season, she's also played 91 consecutive games of AFL.

FLW.

Only two women have played more and at just 27, I had no idea you were 27.

Like so young.

This Iron man of the competition has plenty of years left, but is also a media performer of note, bringing sharp analysis to a TV special comments role and as a radio pundit for three four and as a columnist for The Age.

Not to mention a buoyant voice on our own Real Footy podcast.

If that weren't enough, she's also become a published author, just releasing Libby's Footy Adventures, the first ever children's book by an AFL player.

She joins us in the studio on the eve of the season for a chat about all that and more.

Welcome, Libby.

Thanks for having me, Conrad.

Great to see you again.

We'll get to your new book in a minute.

But for the moment, I just want to focus on the dedication at the start.

So I'll read it out to Daisy Pearce, the teammate and friend who made all of this possible.

I'll never forget the day you gave me those orange boots.

It changed everything.

So, Daisy Pearce of course.

For our listeners, is an AFL trailblazer, former star player, then broadcaster, then assistant coach for the Geelong Cats men's team, now senior coach of the West Coast women's team.

What's this about her orange boots?

Well, I've still got them to this day, and it was almost a Cinderella moment for me.

But the way I got into footy was I was 18 years old.

I was a netballer from day dot to 18 years old.

And Daisy Pearce at the time was doing some cross-code, getting some athletes across to AFL w beginning in 2017, and it was 2016 at the time and she messaged me out of the blue, knowing that I was an athlete that could be interested in cross coding.

And she just said, look, do you want to come down to a talent search day?

And I turned her down the first time, and then about three months later, I messaged back knowing that I'd missed the tryouts, and she said, look, you've missed it.

You missed your opportunity, but come with me to the Darebin Falcons, which was her A club in the heart of Preston.

Heart of Darebin at Aacap Reserve.

You can't even find it on the map.

It's that small.

And she and I said, Daisy, I don't have any boots.

And she said, well, look, I'll give you my pair of orange boots and they fit perfectly, which again was my little Cinderella moment to say that this was something that could be my new life, this full life.

And she took me down to the Foulkes.

And I absolutely fell in love with footie from that moment onwards, it was just the most incredible time in my life.

And then I've had the privilege of playing with Daisy, having had her as as my mentor for a long time.

She's now my best friend.

Uh, and I've just absolutely loved growing along the journey of AFL.

W amazing.

Let's let's oom back.

Before that, you mentioned netball, so your heart wasn't always in footy.

You actually grew up playing netball and you were you were a very good player playing, um, various underage national squads.

I suspect you will always wish that you could be an Australian diamond.

Um, tell us about that journey in sport.

Yeah, I think from a young age I, my parents and my family barracked for Saint Kilda and my favourite player was Lenny Hayes.

But I always wanted to be this competitive little Tucker out there, wanting to win and be the best that I could be out in any sport that I played netball, hockey, tennis, uh, and it was my family that sort of shaped that.

And I felt like a sense of belonging in sport, that that was the place where I could push myself to be, to be better.

And I think because I saw all these incredible netballers on the TV and the Australian Diamonds, you know, I remember the dresses yellow and green, and it was just incredible to see them display this women's sport nationally.

But then again, I loved footy and I loved barracking for footy and I saw my idol Lenny Hayes, but I never saw any women in the same space that I saw women representing Australia in netball.

So it never really occurred to me as a young kid to be wanting to play the sport of footy, because I could never see myself as an elite athlete in that sport.

So it was netball, it was through and through.

It was something I still to this day want to be.

Um, I haven't let that dream die.

Uh, it was just everything that I dreamed of and everything I had on my walls as a kid.

And, uh.

And I guess that's what's so important about why we have w now is not only for that equality piece, but because storytelling and seeing things as a kid is so important.

Just staying with netball for a second.

Do you worry at all about that sport?

It's always strange to me how netball feels like.

It's kind of the beating heart of every country town.

You know, it's the netball and football club or netball and cricket club and yet it kind of it's always facing this battle where it struggles for sort of sponsorship dollars or, um, free to air TV coverage like it's so such a dominant thing at grassroots level, but doesn't quite puncture on that really broad popular level.

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

I think it's one of the highest participating sports, uh, in, in the country.

And it's it's really been so popular for so many years for, for young girls and now, in fact, young boys, which is fantastic.

But as you say, I am more worried for the sport because they have been or had some troubles, uh, with, again, those sponsorship deals, but then getting coverage across TV and they've even had issues with crowd numbers and things like that as we have in AFL.

So I think what I've learned across the journey is it's not only AFL, w it's women's sport in general that continually needs support, uh, from financial backers, but then also to make sure that we are exposing it to everything we can so that we can get these new next generation of young kids to love it and fall in love with it.

Yeah.

And vote with their feet.

Exactly.

Um, let's go to footy now.

As someone who's only played the game for a decade, um, you mentioned how you went down to the Darebin Falcons and put on your Cinderella orange boots and fell in love with the game.

What did you fall in love with about it?

Like, what do you reckon you get from football or like about it that maybe you didn't get from netball?

There was this innate sense of belonging.

When I turned up on that first night.

It was cold.

It was crisp.

There was, I can remember it, a reserve in the heart of Darebin.

The goalpost used to get stolen.

There was dog poo on the ground.

But, you know, there was one toilet in the changerooms for for the women at the time.

But there was this special sense of community, that and self-worth, I think, that I'd never experienced before in sport and that people showed up as themselves and fully as themselves.

And there's a power in that, because I don't think you can turn up as yourself if the environment doesn't let you do that.

And I think throughout my sporting career I have.

There's been many places where you couldn't turn up and be yourself.

You sort of felt like you had to be someone else in that environment.

And I'm sure it's the same in workplaces as well, if you don't have the right culture around you.

But I feel like AFL, W or women's footy in general, even before it wasn't a set competition was one of the safest places for people to just turn up and be them.

And I know for a fact, having learnt from the people that I've been around, that it's been one of the most safest places for the LGBTQi+ community.

First Nations people, and it's always been a place that they can go to and feel safe.

And now I think we've extended that into the community as AFL players, which I think has been one of the shining lights of the competition, really, is that it's so different to the men's space and that's the beauty of it.

Different is sometimes great, and I think different sometimes scares people.

But, uh, in the way that we're going, uh, that's where it really brought home to me that this, this environment was a place that I wanted to be a part of.

What about on the field?

What do you what do you love about the game there?

I love asking football players this question because it's like some of them, you know, it's a hanger being Jeremy, how some of them is kicking a razzle dazzle goal or you know, what do you love out there?

Well, personally I love taking an intercept mark.

It's that's like my goal.

That's my moment of euphoria.

When I take an intercept mark for the team.

It's just it's so hard to do.

And when I do, I feel like I'm on top of the world.

Uh, but I also love the competitive, combative nature of it.

You can get in there, get stuck in, even if you're not getting those intercept marks.

I feel like you still have this.

It's such a team sport that you're still applying.

You know your presence even though you're not touching the ball.

And I think that's what I really love about it as well.

So the Aflw has existed now for ten years, which is quite the milestone.

Um, it's come a long way, but it's also losing about $50 million a year.

And this was a question from, um, Chloe Salto, the, uh, The Age sports editor.

I sort of plied her for a couple of queries, and she had a question for you.

NRL has a ready made TV audience for its W-League, which is, I think, because of the State of Origin brand that they have here.

How can AFL compete with that?

Like what's the superpower or what?

What can I FLW bring to to get its audience up?

Well, I, I think the superpower is and I think it's always been uniting the men's and women's teams for, for double headers.

I think that that is an extremely powerful direction that we should maybe continue to explore going forward.

I know that we don't have any this season, but I'd love to see that because I think we've gotten this existing audience we've got through the men's competition and obviously existing club supporters.

So if you're a one club supporter, you would of course support your women's team as well.

But I think it's an ongoing issue that there may not be an answer to for the next couple of years.

In fact, I think we've got to try and consolidate over the next five years.

This year it's 12 weeks, 12 rounds, and we've started a little bit earlier with a little bit more crossover with the men's season, which is going to be interesting.

I was gonna say, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Like, are you fighting for eyeballs when the men's game is on, or are people paying attention because the more dominant season is going and like.

Yeah.

It's hard to know.

To be honest.

I think it is really challenging because we do get we do start in that pre-finals bye, which I think gives us that free air.

But then after that it's finals footy for the men's season and obviously that takes up a lot of the noise and then post finals footy.

I'm not sure whether people are still interested in footy.

Are they footed out, are they over it.

You know and I was I've been in my 10th.

This will be my 10th season now and I've had the Aflw season over summer January and February which was a few of those games.

Yeah.

Excruciatingly hot.

Uh, but maybe did we have the audience that was sort of footy hungry at that time.

So I think the AFL is obviously trying to still tinker with this, uh, the ideal spot for it.

And to be honest, we I don't know yet.

I don't know, but all we can focus on is putting our best footy out on the pitch so that when people watch it, they love it.

What about if you could pull the levers at AFL HQ?

If you could go in and make like one change, one innovation, one tweak, what?

What would you do?

I would love to do double headers.

I think that would be awesome.

One ticket.

Uh, you get to go see or you can come at any time throughout the day, but you're both clubs are matched games.

So you've got you know it's Carlton Pies, it's Carlton Pies Women's as well.

And you rock up whenever you want to and you can get to watch the women's or the men's and either or it could be before or after.

And I think that would be a really cool, uh, festival style of footy on the one night or one afternoon.

And it'd be a bit of a throwback to, I mean, when I was a teenager, you could go along to the footy and see the reserves were.

Playing.

And you would, you'd make a full day of it, like bring along a packed lunch.

Just don't want to be paying for all of those hot dogs at the ground.

Okay, so now let's go to your footy off the field.

So what does life look like for you as a as a senior player in what's still kind of a semi-professional space?

Like it's a serious commitment but not a full time professional commitment.

I mean, you're a trained physiotherapist, but you don't use that, right?

Or.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's it's really strange.

So I think the whole evolution across I think it's like 8 or 9 years now because we had two seasons in the one year due to Covid, but the evolution has gone from, let's say I was on $4,000 a year in my first year.

Wow.

Which is incredible.

And we used to train from four till 10:00 at night, and we used to have full time jobs from, you know, six in the morning till, you know, leave early 330, get to club at four, work till ten on the field.

And this evolution now of it gaining more momentum, more hours of the club, you've slowly had to drop off your full time job.

Yeah.

Into part time casual.

And then it slowly dissipated over the course of 8 or 9 years, which has been really interesting for women and for me personally, because I've had to drop off my physio career totally, because at the time that I finished, which was in 2020, you have to do full time six month rotations, uh, you know, to increase your continue to increase your grade or your physio grade.

So grade one, grade two, grade three.

And I actually couldn't do that.

So I just worked casually and then slowly as AFL increase in its, uh, capacity to make us more full time.

Uh, I've dropped that off completely.

And I need work that sort of fits around it.

Now, there's lots of girls that are doing part time teaching and things like that on the off days, but it is such an interesting space for women because it's not quite there yet, but it kind of is.

And I know that doesn't really make sense, but we've still got these other jobs that we have to balance our life with to, uh, make sure that we're earning enough to sustain good lives.

And it's funny because that's obviously, um, a challenging juggle to, to manage, but at the same time, it makes AFL players so much more interesting than the male players.

Like you, this one's a doctor, this one's a lawyer, this one's a teacher, accountant, engineer.

And they're also a footballer.

And I remember talking to Nicole Livingstone about this, and she was really proud of that when she was sort of the leading the league, because it meant that the women's game was sort of churning out really well rounded people at the other end, rather than people who had given, you know, everything to football for ten years and then don't know what to do with the rest of their life when they retire from the game.

Yeah, I'd 100% agree with that.

I think the ability of the women's game to show more than just what's on the field, but what you can do off it for young girls is, is just as important.

I think some of the young girls coming through now have the opportunity to be full time athletes, but I think we're still encouraging these girls to go to uni, go and do those things because you still can and you still should because I think, as you said, it completes you as a person, but then it gives you the balance when footy's not going right, that you've got something else to rely on.

And I and I know it's spoken aloud about a lot in sport, but connecting your identity with sport is really dangerous game, because when things don't go well in your sport, it affects you personally and your life and everything like that.

So having other things that you can put your energy into is really important.

Speaking of extracurricular activity, as we mentioned earlier, you've become a trusted broadcaster, someone who can offer really great expertise.

With that microphone in hand, what was it like getting comfortable with that?

With the, uh, I don't know, with the the camera, the lights.

I think the main thing was actually trusting myself in such a male dominated space at the time.

I'd probably been involved in, in broadcasting now for about 4 or 5 years and the early days or even now.

Still, it can be intimidating to be in a room full of men that have played the game for so many years and at the highest level, and coming in as a woman, I've had really, really fantastic, uh, people that have backed me and supported me.

But I think it's just coming to terms with the fact that, yeah, it is a space where we're still women are still trying to pave a way to to feel as though we've got a voice in this space and we can talk about it as equally as our male counterparts and the people like Daisy Pearce and Abby Holmes, uh, that have done an incredible job in that space thus far.

And so, yeah, I've really enjoyed the challenge of that, and I've really enjoyed feeling uncomfortable talking about things that, you know, I should be able to talk about.

But the environment sometimes says, maybe, you know, you're not you're not meant to be here.

Libby.

Uh, and so I think working through that's been really powerful and owning that.

I'm just as my opinion is just as valuable as someone sitting next to me.

Uh, and I've just been an incredible space to be involved in because at the end of the day, everyone loves footy.

Everyone's got an opinion.

And, uh, it's been a great opportunity to share it.

You're also, as I mentioned, a columnist for The Age, um, and append some excellent pieces this, uh, this season so far.

Is that tricky for you or were you a gun at VCE English.

And and that's all fine.

Oh, no no, no.

I think writing is.

Conrad.

I'm speaking to the genius of writing here, but it's it's a place where I've also had to develop my voice.

And I think I've had, again, some incredible mentors yourself, uh, who I'm speaking to now.

But a couple of people at the age that have really helped me find how to write interesting pieces and by saying that, what's my angle different to the next person, and my angle is my voice as a player.

I'm currently in the game.

What can I share to my audience that people want to know from a player's point of view, or someone that's deep in the trenches right now?

And so finding that voice over the last couple of years has actually made my writing more enjoyable, because I think when I started writing, I didn't really know who I was writing from, if that made any sense.

Absolutely.

And once I've found who I was writing from and to whom, it's made it much more enjoyable, and I've been much more passionate about what I've been writing.

Yeah.

Great answer.

It's time to talk about your book, Libby's Footy Adventures.

I went along to the launch last week and it was a joyous day.

And it's a gorgeous book.

It's also the first children's book by an AFL W player.

So what?

What prompted it?

Yeah, well, about two and a half years ago now, there was a friend of mine reached out just saying that she was just looking for a young kid's book showing girls playing footy.

And there wasn't anything on the bookshelves at the time, and I just thought that was completely outrageous.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Considering that all the work that we'd done to make women's sport visible, we'd we'd miss this big gap in storytelling for young kids.

And I just thought.

Because these do exist for other sports, like.

Ash.

Barty's.

Got.

Books about.

Soccer.

Girls tennis.

Yeah.

Sam Kerr's got books about soccer.

Like.

Yeah.

Anyway, so.

I was like, we need to change this.

This this is this is not right.

And so over the Christmas period, I put pen to paper and started thinking about what I wanted to put in this kid's book.

And now, of course, I'm again speaking to someone who's done many.

And it's it's such a powerful time to be writing something directly from the heart.

And that's what I wanted this kid's book to be about.

All my experiences of W and what I've felt like it's meant to our community.

And then I went away and pitched it to a few publishers, one toolkit, which was fantastic, and we went from there.

But it's just a book that I'm super proud of, and I'm proud of it because it's giving another visual and representation for young girls who love playing footy or just love footy.

Uh, the chance to see that they've got an opportunity in this game, whether that's being an umpire, uh, playing the game or kicking the ball in the backyard, whatever it is, this place, this sport has a place for you.

And you worked with, um, a lovely illustrator.

Um, Robin.

Put the art together for you.

I believe she the only thing she got wrong was she didn't really represent a snap.

Well, like, uh, she was amazing.

So, Robin from Adelaide, we caught up actually last year into it, and I was actually playing over in Adelaide against Adelaide at the time, which was great timing.

And we she actually was amazing.

She, her daughter and herself went to these footy games over in Adelaide, young girls competitions at the time because she wasn't really involved in footy and what I loved was she used to sit there every weekend with her daughter and they'd used to sketch everything that they saw in women's footy, which was so beautiful, and it really has made this book so special because it's it is from where it's meant to be, from which is the community atmosphere of young girls footy and the what I really wanted highlighted in this book is body shapes and sizes.

Everyone's got their own strength and power and um, there's different hairstyles, different body, body, uh, shapes, and it's just.

Different skin color.

Different skin colours.

Non-binary friends.

There's boys and girls.

Yeah.

So it's got everything.

And that's what I feel like W is.

Yeah.

It's also got some pretty good footy instruction like woven into the narrative.

There's, there's great advice there like eyes up and move your feet.

I love like a statue.

I love the instruction to hold the ball like a compass north to south when kicking.

I hadn't heard that one.

Um.

And handballing using the old, um, ice cream scoop and pancake motion.

Sorry for our NRL listeners.

Um, there's even a five step lesson in that notoriously tricky skill.

Bouncing the football, which is a good theme throughout.

How's the book been received so far by young readers?

I mean, I know it's only been out a short while, but it would have got into the hands of a bunch of kids by now.

Yeah, everyone's loved it.

It's been absolutely terrific to see.

Uh, like a lot of people have been sending photos of the book in the hands of kids, uh, and they've just had this massive smile on their face and just completely immersed in the book.

And I think that's been the most exciting thing, is that this book has actually resonated with the audience that I wanted it to.

And sometimes you don't know that that's going to be the case.

This is my first book, so I didn't know how it was going to land, but it has landed incredibly well with the people that matter.

And that's that's that's really, really, really exciting.

And I've just loved seeing their little faces flick through the book.

And I've had people say that they've, they've the, the little daughters or, or young sons have wanted to read the book 3 or 4 times in a row and it's just it's really lovely.

And, um, yeah, I've absolutely loved the journey thus far and hopefully there's a few little sequels to come.

Excellent.

I got two copies for my twin nieces and still need to read it to them one day soon.

Um, you and I met up for a jog last year so that I could interview you for a book that I'm writing about running.

Uh, and you explain to me then that you hate running.

I think you said that's.

True, I.

Hate it, I hate it, I hate it.

Um, yeah.

Running is one of those things that kind of sets your team, the North Melbourne Kangaroos, apart from the competition, uh, and sort of helped you win the premiership last year.

Go undefeated.

Um, how tough was preseason this year because you're just coming off it.

Um, and how goes the the running?

Yeah.

Well, running.

Let me just say that it hasn't been the easiest thing for me to do in my footy career.

Uh, those pre-season runs have been an absolute struggle.

But the one thing that has gotten me through is running with people.

That's probably the one thing I enjoy about running is being challenged by the next person in front of me.

Uh, I hate when I have to challenge against myself, because I just feel like stopping and, um, getting on with my day.

But I think this year has been equally as challenging in our preseason running, if not even harder.

But I will say that because it was my first year at the Kangaroos, last year it was a whole new world to me that this program that they were doing.

And this year I would say I've been hardened to last year's pre-season.

What to expect, which I think is probably what happens when you run and run more frequently, is that you get better at it and you get more hardened to the feelings of, oh geez, this is hard.

Well, it's bloody cold.

Out there too.

Like it's not a pleasant time for pre-season training.

No no, no.

So I feel I've been a little bit hardened from last year's pre-season, which is great.

But in saying that though, running is always a challenge of mine and one that I need people around me to help me with.

Uh, one last one.

How has your team sort of sought to maintain the hunger?

Because going back to back is no easy feat.

You know, when some people have achieved the pinnacle, that sort of burning ache to succeed again, isn't there?

They're sort of they're they're satisfied.

So what have you girls spoken about in terms of, um, setting driving standards to go again?

Yeah, it's a really good question, Conrad.

And I hope you might have the answer.

I, uh, I just think it's such an interesting psyche in sport, the whole hunted hunting mentality.

And it's has spoken about a lot in every sport, really.

Can you go back to back after winning once?

Do you have the same amount of motivation and hunger?

I think what really sets us apart at the Roos is actually our coach, Darren Crocker.

I feel like what he did so well last year, and obviously it was my first year at the club, so I'd only experienced one year, but he kept everything so measured week to week was regardless of if we won or lost, we didn't actually end up losing, but regardless, we kept everything very similar.

So a win always felt like a loss because there was always so many learnings to take from the game.

So it was very flatlined in a sense.

Obviously, we took joy from those wins, but the process of actually getting better was flatlined.

It wasn't an elation, a super elation.

There wasn't a fact that, oh, we won.

We won't review that as much as the last one.

So I think that gave us a great sense of process and balance to the way we approached each game, and I think that's going to help us in good stead this year, because it's not about for him.

And what he preaches to us is it's not about the end result.

It's about just getting better each day.

So for us, that means how can we be the best team today?

How can we be the best individual today, and how can we be the best, whether it's a game, uh, coming up, how can we be the best team playing on that day?

And if we do lose, it's not the end of the world.

And I think that's that perspective really, really helps when you're in the thick of it, in the pressure and everything feels like, uh, a big deal.

So I think he's going to really set us in good stead, as well as obviously our leaders that have been really important to us going forward.

But I think just staying present because there's no pressure or stress in the present.

I know that sounds quite psychological and but that's the truth.

And I think if you listen to those outside noise, that's when things start to creep in and you can start doubting yourself or putting yourself under unnecessary pressure.

There's no pressure in the present, I like that.

Excellent.

Thanks so much for joining us, Libby, and good luck for this season.

Except against my.

Tigers.

Thanks, Conrad.

That was children's book author and AFL star Libby Birch.

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