Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.

Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond.

Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day.

In this episode, we talk to Jess Catelli.

Catelli is the co-founder of Sydney Swingers Bar, our secret spot.

The 32 year old got into swinging, also known as The Lifestyle, when she was just 20, and her Parramatta Road venue has since become an example of the way in which the swinging community is changing.

Middle class suburban key parties are no longer, nor is the practice as grimy or seedy as popular culture might have you imagine.

Instead, the lifestyle is big on respect and consent, joy and community.

And as Catelli notes, more often than not, led by the female gaze.

Catelli is one of dozens of venue owners, party organizers, kink performers, and consent angels that I interviewed for the Good Weekend cover story this week.

Swing set, and it's great to have her in the studio today.

Welcome, Jess.

Thank you.

So nice to have you here.

We spoke when I was putting that story together, but I wanted to walk our listeners through everything that we discussed and more.

So I guess I just want to start under the assumption that most of our listeners have a few misconceptions about swinging or, as it's now known, the lifestyle.

Can you kind of nutshell for us what the lifestyle is for people who don't know?

Yeah.

So the lifestyle is a way of living for some where you can express yourself in either a sexual or emotional way, um, which is out of the norm.

So out of your monogamous relationship where a man and a female, um, get together and they live happily ever after with their two and a half kids?

I'm pretty sure that statistic has changed, but I'm going to say it's two and a half.

Um, it's now a lifestyle choice where you're able to be liberated, you're able to express how you feel as a person inside and also express that on the outside whilst interacting with other like minded people.

So it's a way where people can consensually swing or interact with each other.

Um, and it's not considered cheating.

Having sex with other people, but in a kind of joyous and consensual way.

Yes.

How did you get involved?

Like beyond, um, our sacred spot, which we will get to.

What's your personal swinging story like?

How did you join the scene?

I actually got involved in this through my ex, who was also my business partner.

So Lawrence, um, introduced me into the lifestyle when we first started opening up the venue, so he had explained exactly what the lifestyle was, gave me a little rundown, gave me like a little cheat sheet, essentially.

Um, tell me some tips that, um, kind of tickled my fancy, which is why I was so excited to try it.

Um, and from that day, we kind of pretty much explored swinging together whilst opening our venue.

So mine was a combo story rather than just starting out into a swinging lifestyle, which a lot more people, um, are more privy to.

Mine was a bit more of a work life love balance.

It is bizarre, like I think you said, like I'd never been to a swingers bar until I opened my own one, right?

Correct.

Yeah.

Um, I had never been into swingers club.

I had never gone to a swingers party.

I'd gone to like, swingers event.

So similar to events like per.

Um, we went to one called Red Heaven.

It was amazing.

Um, I got to see lots of adults dressed up sexy, But, um, I there was no interaction.

There was no play on site.

So it was really just a party where you could dress down.

So the first ever swingers club I went to was my own.

Amazing.

Mhm.

Um, what was the sort of guiding ethos for your club?

Because it is a little different than perhaps what might have been offered 20 years ago or, um, or even prior.

You had a very specific kind of idea in mind for it, didn't you?

Yeah.

So when we opened our secret spot, um, Lawrence and I really decided to be heavily focused on female empowerment and ensuring that it had a really nice, soft, safe and sexy vibe.

Um, we were very adamant that when we did open our club, we wanted to make sure that it was clean, number one, safe where not only women could feel safe and empowered, but also they could walk around, um, and have the ability to not get groped.

Um, so having that consensuality there, um, and also we wanted to have something that didn't feel like you're going to an RSL club.

So something sexy, um, something where you did want to have sex at, like, you've gone to a really fancy hotel, and you have that energy and that vibe flowing through you that you're able to then embody that in yourself as well.

Maybe you can take listeners on a kind of imaginary walk through the club, if you don't mind.

So if a couple turned up there on a Friday night, what would they encounter?

Like put us in their shoes?

Yeah.

So a normal night looks like, um, a couple would enter.

Generally, we have most of the people purchase tickets before they turn up to the venue.

Once they've come up to the front desk, um, you get greeted by our cheeky concierge.

Um, we felt like they needed a cute title, so that's why they got the cheekiness.

Um, they basically give you a little rundown on, um, our rules and regulations inside the venue.

They take your phone off you.

We don't have a phone policy inside.

So, um, all the secrets are kept inside, and then they hand you a locker key.

Once you enter through, you find there is a bar to your immediate right, so you pop off your drinks.

We are a BYO venue.

Um, and if it is your first time, you get a guided tour.

So we have our all our staff are trained, um, to be able to give you a guided tour and give you all the rules and regulations inside.

Um, so a general tour would consist of walking through the ground floor, which has your pool table, your dance floor, um, and a bathroom with your amazing DJ decks.

So you'll always have a DJ on the big events, but sometimes it'll just be house music.

Then they'll take you upstairs to what we call our play areas.

So you have lockers upstairs.

Private playrooms, um, a voyeur room, which is a two way mirror room with a swing set in there.

Um, funny enough, it's a swing set so.

That someone can have sex in there, and then other people can be looking through the mirror, kind of watching.

Yeah, correct.

So it's a fun little way of having people involved, but not having too much involvement.

Yeah.

Um, and then on the other side of that, we have our beautiful open play space or orgy room.

I'm assuming I can say that.

Yep.

Cool.

Perfect.

Um, and then if you travel all the way back downstairs, this is a three level venue.

You'll find our dungeons.

So we do also call it our red room because of the beautiful hue of the red lights.

Um, but we do fit it out with our Saint Andrew's cross, a spanking bench, and a couple couches to get cozy on.

It sounds.

It reminds me a little bit of one of the venues that I, um, sort of spoke to the owner of for the story between Friends Wine Bar down in Melbourne, where if you were to walk in on the ground floor, it sort of just looks like any other bar.

He wants you to look like a wine bar.

Yours probably just looks like a Parramatta Road bar.

Yeah.

Um, but then all sorts of other stuff is happening above or below.

Um, when does that all happen?

And is there sort of a a point in the night where people have to dress down or get into.

Yeah.

Get into, like.

Their underwear or a towel in order to go upstairs or downstairs or.

Yeah, definitely.

Like there is a tipping point of the night where it does peak and everyone does dress down.

Um, we do somewhat enforce a dress down code around 1030 just to get people into the mood.

However, the ground floor is always set to however you feel comfortable.

Yep.

Um, but you do find there are a few party starters or play starters, as we call them, who will go upstairs, start their dress down, and people wander because they're curious.

So curiosity normally catches a bunch of them, will take them upstairs and then play generally starts from there.

Right?

There's people who come in, particularly when they're.

What?

What?

Um, in the lifestyle you call newbies, I imagine they must tell you their fears every now and again.

Like what worries them most?

And what is that?

Is it I won't be able to connect with someone.

Is it?

I'm worried about the way I look or look.

I think there's a bunch of fears.

I think as humans, we're really harsh on ourselves.

Um, and I think it takes a lot of maturity for us to learn that where, um, we're not always going to be everyone's.

Yum.

Um, but it doesn't mean that you're not going to have a good time.

So a lot of people's biggest fears are that they're not going to be liked or they're not going to get on with people, or people won't want to speak to them.

Um, I find with the lifestyle, though, people are so accepting and wanting to be accepted as well, that they're more welcoming to all those nervous energies, and they do want to have those conversations, whether it be about having sex with that person or whether it's just a conversation.

Um, other than that, I find people just get nervous in general because it's such a nerve wracking thing to do.

A because it feels like a mini date again, because you're coming in, you're having to spark up those first time conversations with people you've never met before.

Um, and it goes from conversation to sometimes sex within 30 minutes to an hour.

It's such a quick turnaround that I think there's a lot of self-conscious thoughts where people don't know if they're going to live up to that moment or if, you know, are they is this exactly what they want?

They're running through so many different thoughts.

And then if you come as a couple, sometimes a jealousy element will take over.

But thankfully I find we as a lifestyle or as a community have learnt a really good path of communication.

Um, and so you'll find especially in events, um, whether it be a dance party or a swingers event, you'll find people will be off the side talking to having chats in the middle of a sexual orgy or sexual situation, because those check ins help that situation extend, right?

Because people often come in with really set boundaries or rules or, um, a sense that they need to kind of communicate their needs throughout.

Right?

Yeah.

Some people come with these high expectations that their night's going to be the best night of their life.

And it's we always say, you know, come with your rules and your boundaries because they're really great to have.

You need something to work off.

But as an expectation, just come for a good time, um, because you can always add on to expectations you can't take away.

Right?

One of the big things, like questions that I got from friends when I was when I told them I was writing this story, um, apart from they're just like, are you serious?

These places exist because they had no idea.

Was do you have to have sex at a swingers club?

Definitely not.

So, um, we call it foyers, but a lot of the time, couples for the first time, or even couples who have been there quite regularly or singles, um, don't always embark on having sex, so sometimes it could just be they needed a casual conversation or this is their first step into it, where they just wanted to have conversations, or even just to see what it was like and just observe.

Um, we put no expectations on anyone to have any sexual interactions whatsoever.

Um, we do always recommend or encourage that you have at least a conversation with somebody, because whether that be a conversation with somebody that you find interesting or not, that conversation could mean the world to you.

Really good segue into my next question.

Yeah.

So a big theme kind of within the lifestyle these days seems to be this idea of making it more approachable.

And I was really interested by one idea in particular.

There's a group in Melbourne called mingle, and their slogan is we take the sex out of sex party by inviting people who are curious about the scene to come and drink and dance and chat somewhere offsite at a at a bar or a pub that they've rented out that they've taken over for the night.

Everybody's wearing clothes, so there's less nerves, less pressure.

You do something similar here, right?

We your venue?

Can you tell us about that?

Yes.

So, um, we actually call it our mingle as well.

Um, so we do a monthly mingle, and what happens is we go to a vanilla venue is what we call it.

Vanilla is their word for mainstream, by the way.

Yes.

Um, so we go to a vanilla venue, which is a local bar to us called Snacky Chan.

And we basically, um, set up a section inside of the venue, um, have pre-drinks where it's two hours of drinking.

Um, customers come in, uh, whether they're singles or couples, and they get to mingle and have that interaction with their clothes on.

So this kind of allows those who were just even nervous to even come to the door and interact with our own door to come through.

They can come and have chats with the customers, um, have chats with us as well.

So Lawrence and myself are generally there as well, so we can have, um, conversations firsthand with them.

Um, and we also have a naughty bingo.

So to make it a little bit easier, um, and to lubricate everyone, we give them a naughty bingo that they have to go and find a new person for each box.

Okay.

Um, and we find that bingo goes on forever and it ends up getting people back to the club.

So just to clarify for listeners, that means that they have to go around and ask a sort of set questions of a bunch of people, like, have you ever given a Rim job or these sorts of things?

Right?

Yes it does.

So a Rim job is definitely on there.

There's one that's like, have you had sex with a celebrity?

Um, have you had sex with anyone here?

Have you, uh, have you done anal?

Have you, like, all just the basic questions where some of them are hard, some of them are easier.

Like, have you had a threesome or something like that?

But it just forces people to kind of break the ice, right?

It does.

And ask the questions that people want to ask, but maybe they just don't know the direction and how to.

So we give you the the tools and the kits for it.

And you kind of have a pretty good strike rate for people going to a mingle and then eventually coming to the club.

We do.

Um, so we find with our mingles, we also host them on a Thursday.

So it's an after work sort of sesh.

Um, we do have between a 90 to 95% strike ratio of people coming back to the club afterwards.

Wow.

So it's quite high.

What about, um.

So I wanted to talk about mass party events.

So things like the long running Saints and Sinners Ball in Melbourne and per as well, Red heaven you mentioned in Sydney.

So these are kind of ticketed events, entire nightclub takeover things where people can come to me from the lifestyle, and certain rooms of the club are given over entirely to play.

So, um, I describe it at the beginning of my, um, story, actually going to Saints and Sinners and walking down into the basement and being confronted by just like a hundred people having sex, basically, um, which is is wild.

Now they seem to be growing in popularity with new events popping up all over the shop.

Have you been to many of these and what do you think they offer to, um, people who want to get into swinging?

Look, I think these are great events because they're a great little, um, toe warmer, like little step into it as well because you don't have to be involved.

And people are so used to the concept of a dance party, or at least a social mingling event.

Um, um, these parties are very long standing as well.

So they've got some backing to them.

Um, I've actually been to all three of the ones that you mentioned.

Um, and I've definitely would go back to all three as well.

They're all great different styles of venue events.

Um, and I think they help people create new groups as well.

So being somebody who's come more from a swinger club version then going into an event based version, I find I've got different groups of friends and these friends then get to interact.

So it's different ways of mingling, different ways of interacting.

Um, and again, learning new um, styles or ways that people want to interact in this lifestyle that isn't always sex based.

Yep.

Absolutely.

I feel like I've spoken to a lot of people in the community that will go to those events, not really to play or have sex, but to meet other people that they know from the lifestyle.

It's like, hey, I want to catch up with you, and then they go somewhere else for their fun afterwards.

It's almost just like a regular chance to sort of rendezvous with like minded people.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I do definitely find those events.

Um, a lot of the friends that I do meet up with there, um, we call them, they're like, uh, sexy non play Non-play friends or the clothes on friends.

Um, like I've seen them naked.

I've seen them have sex before, but we don't interact in that way.

However, we get to have that time to build our friendship or our connections at these events.

Also seems like a pretty easy way in for, uh, for somebody who, as you say, is dipping a toe in because they can go into a club, there's 800 people there, they can be a wallflower and just kind of drink in a little bit of the, the sort of the, the spiciness and then leave and not really be detected at all.

Yeah, definitely.

It's a nice, easy way to start your lifestyle.

How about house parties?

So I spoke to.

A few organizers.

Um, and their goal sometimes seems to be something closer to an eyes wide shut experience.

You know, this opulent masquerade party?

Champagne and charcuterie boards, and they're able to organize those because of the power of the internet, of course.

Are they kind of a big part of the ecosystem in the lifestyles?

Look, they definitely are.

They're a starting point for a lot of couples who want to keep it a bit more of a selective crowd, where they want to curate their crowd or curate their, um, environment.

Uh, I find house parties will be prevalent everywhere.

It's not like it's just a set suburb or a set state.

Um, house parties will always be there, whether, um, the clubs turn up or not.

So I think because of that, a lot of the house parties either start to grow and expand and then need bigger venues, or they continue to curate that smaller event.

Um, but like you said, they're they're charcuterie boards and the cheese, um, with the wine, it's amazing because there's such a different experience that we as a venue cannot host, and neither can the big dance parties.

It's a more intimate vibe.

Um, and it's sometimes that's more suited to some of the people because there's different parts of the lifestyle that suits different people.

Yeah, well, I spoke to one young couple who run a party down in Melbourne and it's I mean, I think they say 40 and under, but for a while there it was 35 and under because they, you know, found certain parties or experiences to be older.

And it's really confronting for a like a 27 year old to be to walk in the room and like, I'm the youngest person here kind of thing.

Yeah.

Look, I completely get that.

Especially, um, when I was young, when I was 20 and starting this, it was very confronting having older couples or older people approach me.

Um, then again, I married a 16 years old senior, my partner, so I really can't speak that much on it anymore.

But, um, it definitely can be confronting for that younger, early 20s crowd where, um, these particular couples or singles do have a lot more life experience in this and have a lot more, um, I guess worldly knowledge of the lifestyle.

So that in itself can be quite confronting.

I do want to talk a little bit about the demographics here.

So it's difficult to come by a statistical data.

So we sort of rely on anecdotal evidence for for who.

Who are the big groups in the lifestyle.

But, um, you told me that your typical customer would be a couple in their 30s, professional, emotionally mature and looking to explore.

Is that about right?

Yeah.

That's correct.

Um, definitely those couples who have those expendable funds and they're they've got a great communication bond already.

So they're looking to expand, um, and add to their relationship rather than people call it like a fix.

We're definitely not a fixed lifestyle.

This lifestyle doesn't fix anything.

It just helps you grow.

Yep.

People have also sort of told me that one of the big groups that's really growing in number are on the scene.

Are Gen X women either post divorce or maybe going through a kind of journey of self-discovery with their husbands, um, and, and a swingers club kind of, for them, almost represents a really effective and affordable option Because other swingers are there.

They're gathered up for them.

They don't have to organize anything and they don't have to pay for a hotel room.

Is that a demographic that you're seeing kind of flowing into your club or the lifestyle?

Uh, yeah.

Look, definitely we are.

Um, I find that with, I guess, across a lot of women, not just at that age group, only because these venues have curated spaces that are safe.

Um, and they have people that they can rely on so they can still attend as a single, but then they have staff around them that they have that support where they can have those conversations with if they're feeling uncomfortable.

Um, and like you said, they're not having to outlay a lot of funds to come to this venue or come to a party.

They just pay for that initial fee.

What does it cost again to go to our secret spot?

So it is $89, and I feel like I've got that wrong.

For a single woman.

For a single woman.

So it's $169 for a couple.

Um, it's 101 for a single male, and it's 89 for a single female.

And a single female, by the way listeners, is called a unicorn.

It is?

Yes.

Um, and we're very fortunate enough to have, um, up to ten unicorns every event that we host.

So, um, we definitely do have the want and the need for that.

Um, we actually sometimes end up adding more tickets for these single females because one will come with another female friend of theirs who are both, um, either going through that divorce or there's a support partner where she's like, my husband's letting me come to this, but we're here for her.

Yeah.

Um, and so it ends up being a little flurry of women, and honestly, they always have the best time.

And you cap the number of single men to, like, five per event.

Yeah, we keep it to five.

Um, just because the levels that we found over the years, five just is a really nice number where it doesn't feel like it's too heavy and testosterone, and we find the single men add value when it's less of them as well, because there's more effort put in.

Another group that seems to be increasingly involved in the scene, at least as I understand it, a Gen Z and millennials, like we hear often that they're having less sex and forming fewer relationships, even getting kind of app fatigue while trying to hook up.

But a sex party may be sort of represents something more intentional, something more transparent.

Yeah.

Look, we definitely have the younger crowds coming through, especially with a bit more of a fluid party rather than it's a set party.

It's a bit more of a play party aspect.

Um, a little bit more of a queer based aspect.

Uh, a lot of, a lot of parties that bring this generation in are generally parties that are more based around the style of the event, rather than the situation on what happens there.

So it could be, um, a Burning Man style dress up theme rather than come to a masquerade swingers party.

Um, I know they're both themed, but there's a lot more effort, a lot more, um, designation style into it.

Um, a bit more along the lines of what they're and that generation are already attending.

And is it also that they're they're kind of raised with this lexicon, right.

They're much more familiar with ideas around ethical non-monogamy and polyamory and situationships.

Yeah, there's definitely a lot more, um, a lot more research and understanding.

I think social media has really helped them with that.

Where you've got TikTok videos or you've got stuff on YouTube where people can now find, um, others in ethically non-monogamous relationships or consensual non-monogamous relationships, where they're having those conversations and they're freely showing them to the world.

Whereas when my generation was kind of coming up a little bit, it was only just starting.

Um, so they're definitely a lot more versed in all of this, um, concept and the knowledge.

And I think because of that, a lot of that generation aren't just sticking to being coupled, they're being in Throuples or they're being in poly families or, um, consensual families, like, we have a lot of friends who.

There's five of them, but there's no set primary.

They all contribute to their family.

You, yourself.

You describe yourself as monogamish.

Monogamish?

Yes.

Okay.

Um, so there's a dark side to this scene, however, and we'd be remiss if we didn't touch on it.

Um, a little.

So first, behind the scenes, in a business sense, it feels like the lifestyle can be a little bit political, like I do sense sometimes a little in-fighting or territoriality, particularly when a newcomer kind of enters the scene and wants to do something different, either in terms of a venue or a party or something.

The old guard maybe feel threatened.

You experienced this a little yourself when you guys opened up.

Uh, look, we definitely felt it when we opened.

Um, there was, uh, two particular venues that kind of felt a bit gypped that we opened up, but we just wanted to, uh, show that the showcase another style and another, um, avenue for it, because there is definitely room for more than one venue.

Um, and we've always thought that, and we've continued to ensure that it's building on the community.

We're not detracting from the community.

Um, but yeah, there can be a little, especially the old schoolers do like to stick their heels into the ground and get a bit stuffy about it.

Um, you also copped a bit of flak from the wider community.

Yeah, like so after an appearance on maybe, like morning TV and Kyle and Jackie O show, like, once people knew that this thing existed.

Um, there are judgmental people that come out of the woodwork.

Yeah, yeah, I definitely got a lot of my vanillas.

So people that aren't part of the lifestyle, um, coming out.

And I guess the nicest word is attacking, um, saying that I'm ruining families.

I'm bringing back diseases that I didn't even know could be brought back.

Um, I'd had family members messaged me, being, um, concerned for my safety because people had been saying all these horrible things without even reading the articles that had come out.

Um, my partner also got the same thing, and so did a lot of people at work.

But, um, I think with such a strong lifestyle community that we are as our sacred spot, we all kind of just stuck together and we just made sure that we were presenting the right image and we're talking about the right things.

And then if somebody came at us, we would just, you know, combat them with a nice, okay, you can go away.

Now.

There's an even darker side, of course, and that can mean everything from kind of sexual predators sort of lurking in the community, or maybe just people dealing with mental illness or, um, or drug issues, you know, that that exists in every community, but it can be multiplied or, or, um, even more damaging where sex and relationships are concerned.

So is it challenging at all to kind of run an establishment where something as sensitive as sex is on the menu?

Um, does the community self-police like, how do you how do you take care around things like consent?

I mean, like you said, it is difficult in all types of aspects to try and control and monitor all of those things.

Um, because we are of a night time and we're considered a night time venue.

Um, things like drugs and, um, uh, mental health and stuff.

Like, if you've had a long work week and, you know, you think you just let loose and you'll do a few things and then it spirals into the worst night of your life.

Um, we are fortunate enough with the lifestyle.

Um, a lot of the community do self-police.

Um, but we also in our venue, we do have trained people to police it, um, just out of safety reasons.

Like, we want to ensure that everyone's having the best night, and sometimes that night is not optimal for everyone.

Um, but I do find there's also online communities where people can have these chats.

Um, so there's designated online, I guess, swinger or lifestyle communities.

I know there's apps that people can mingle on.

People create Facebook or WhatsApp groups.

Um, so I we're very fortunate in the way that we have so many now avenues to outreach to, um, but, you know, you still get that thorn in the bush out of nowhere.

So it is unfortunately there.

Let's go to the light side now.

So what do you feel like this community provides?

Like what do people get out of the lifestyle?

Like, why do you want to, um.

Continue.

Yeah.

Continue.

Look, I've found that I've built a beautiful family, both inside my actual family and outside of my family as well.

Um, it's helped me to learn to communicate better as well.

Um, and it's also built a trust, um, in self-worth, in myself.

So the community itself, especially the lifestyle.

Everyone's quite a big advocate of making sure that everyone is their best person.

And people pick up on when you're down or when you're sad, or when you don't feel like you're queen diva of the day.

Um, I think it's also helped me understand my own sexuality.

And I know that's a big thing across all boards.

Um, I've had couples where they, um, they came into this lifestyle being very straight and narrow, and now they're both bi because they've just they've felt accepted to then explore that, that it's not they're not getting chastised for that.

They're not getting shunned because they want to experience something that in their monogamous relationship would have been the only thing they're allowed to do.

Yeah.

Um, it's also helped me build communities, and I know it's built other communities where groups of people I would never have had the opportunity to talk to without having this lifestyle, this space.

Finally, like, what's what's a key piece of advice or two that you'd have for anybody who's considering, um, experimenting with the lifestyle?

Um, I think always give something a go at least once.

Um, but that doesn't mean give it a go sexually.

So at least go and attend like, a mingle.

Um, there is a bunch of them out there.

Uh, try something new where you go and have a conversation with your partner, and you tell them a dirty fantasy.

Things where these seem like a push for normal people.

But it is also a push for swingers as well.

So just giving something a go at least once, um, can help enlighten you to something new.

Thanks so much for coming in, Jess.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you.

That was Jess Catelli, owner of the Sydney Swingers Bar, our secret spot on the latest good weekend talks.

If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate and comment wherever you get your podcasts and keep tuning in for more compelling conversations coming soon.

We chat with broadcaster, newly published children's book author and current AFL star Libby Birch on the eve of a new season.

Good Weekend Talks is brought to you by the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.

Proud newsrooms powered by subscriptions to support independent journalism.

Search, subscribe Sydney Morning Herald or The Age?

This episode of Good Weekend Talks is produced by Konrad Marshall and edited by Tim Mummery, with technical assistance from Josh towers.

Our executive producer is Tammy Mills.

Tom McKendrick is head of audio, and Melissa Stevens is the editor of Good Weekend.