Hi, I'm Konrad Marshall and from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.

Welcome to Good Weekend Talks, a magazine for your ears, featuring in-depth conversations with fascinating people from sport and politics, science and culture, business and beyond.

Every week, you can download new episodes in which top journalists from across our newsrooms talk to compelling people about the definitive stories of the day.

In this episode, we talk to Tracey Lee Holmes.

The TV trailblazer has spent over three decades covering Australian sport and dissecting some of the biggest sporting events on the planet.

In the course of her long and storied career, she's borne witness to the rise and rise of women's sport, which has had to bust through the walls of misogyny and male chauvinism.

Her new book, The Eye of the Have the Dragonfly is part memoir, part sporting manifesto and details her nomadic childhood as the offspring of surfer parents.

Her start in television, her amusing first meeting with partner and fellow TV journalist Stan Grant, and how racism towards their relationship briefly unbuckled their careers.

Pick up the current issue of Good Weekend to read an extract or listen on in this chat.

Homes, a Natural Raconteur, describes her meetings and interviews with sporting giants like Pelé and Cathy Freeman, and how her trademark calm has helped her get through some challenging moments.

Hosting this conversation, in which the veteran broadcaster explains why sport has been an interest and passion all her life, and why Australians are so crazy about it, is good weekend deputy editor Greg Callahan.

Thanks, Conrad, and welcome, Tracy.

Thanks for having me.

Now you've travelled the globe, you've reported on some of the biggest sporting events in in recent history.

And you've you've had pretty much a rich opportunity to compare, um, uh, national sporting passions across the world are Australians.

The sports nuts were made out to be.

Uh.

Look, I hate to disappoint.

We're not the biggest sports nuts in the world.

I think there's a number of other countries that might qualify for that.

And the reason I say that is that, you know, we trot this line out all the time about how manic we are, how we punch above our weight constantly.

And I think it was when we were living in the Middle East.

And I heard this again, uh, when I was looking at some myopic coverage of, you know, an Australian team somewhere.

And I thought, I'm actually going to have a bit of a look, and I'm going to look at a variety of sports winter sports, summer sports, Olympic sports, non-Olympic sports.

Take some of the bigger sports, football, of course, and just see which country appears most in the top ten.

and I think the country I found was Croatia.

And if you look at a country of like 4 million people who only sort of got its independence, what in the in the 90s somewhere and, you know, competed in their first FIFA World Cup in 1998.

Um, and you go they appear so often like this country is really obsessed with sport across the board.

Um, and would rival Australia, I would argue.

And not just football, not just football.

Other sports, you know, a lot of winter sports, of course, alpine skiing, uh, you know, they're big on.

But athletics, track and field, uh, you know, across a number of sports.

And I think the other thing is we tend to look at the sports that we love and we play, and some of those are quite domestic with not much of an international footprint.

So Aussie Rules, of course, were obsessed with Aussie Rules, but no one else plays it.

Um, and then you look at other countries, China for instance, and you go, okay, well table tennis is massive and every 90 year old grandparent is in the park at lunchtime across the road on these free to access table tennis tables, playing each other in this sort of, you know, just ad hoc competition.

And I remember when we first moved to China and we walked through the park and some of these old people would say to our young kids, come, come, come play.

Me and our kids would get up there and, you know, hit their little shots across the net.

And these old people go, ah, you're no good.

Go away.

You're no good.

Yeah.

So I think a lot of countries are obsessed with sport.

I have to ask you, do you see our passion for sport?

And I know we're ranking second to Croatia, but do you see, um, as it being a tonic, you know.

You know, what we love about Australia is the kind of, um, notion that we, um, we're we're pretty kind of easygoing.

Does our passion for sport serve as a distraction from other destructive impulses, perhaps like nationalism that you see in other countries.

Oh, look, I see those things not just in other countries.

I see them here, too.

And I've never looked at sport, uh, as a tonic or a kind of distraction from the reality of the world.

I've always looked at sport as what it tells us about the world, because sport doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Even though it's interesting how sport is viewed by people who are not in the sports system, and it's very much a silo that exists over there somewhere.

Um, and it's, it's for the fans or it's for the gamblers or it's for the athletes or it's for the big machinery of the IOC or FIFA.

Um, but the reality is sport comes out of the societies it exists in.

And so sport is so much more than a distraction for a fan that turns up week in, week out to support his or her club or athlete or team.

It's possibly a distraction from from life and the challenges of life or the mundanity of life.

But for me, it's always been, um, it's it's like looking through the microscope at a petri dish.

And here's this little amoeba we're looking at, and that's called sport.

And what does it tell us about where the world is going?

You know, your passion and your observations in sport really come across in your, um, in your, your book, The Eye of the dragonfly My life Seeing the world through sport, which is, um, just been released.

How did you find writing a book?

Because we're used to seeing you as a broadcast journalist.

Yeah, well, I'm much happier talking than writing.

And for my sins, I married to Stan Grant, who sits down to write a book almost at will.

And it's done.

And it comes out of him like a melody, like an orchestra.

You know, it sort of has this ebb and flow, and it's like a song that just pours out of him.

Uh, writing is not like that for me, so it's not as though I struggle.

Um, but I consider myself pretty boring, actually.

And so what gets lost in the fact that I write how I speak is that some people think it's too forthright and it's too confronting for them.

Uh, other people, I'm sure, think, oh, well, what would she know?

And that's true.

Um, but I'm not writing about me.

I'm writing about the things that I've observed.

And you know what it tells us about the world.

So the struggle for me is not actually the writing.

It's just that, you know, stands so unbelievably good, and I can.

Never get very frustrating.

Look, I'm with you.

There are some writers who approach, uh, writing, um, like musicians.

Um, I was just speaking to a freelance journalist earlier today after doing some heavy work on their story.

And I said, I approach.

I approach writing like an engineer.

You know, I look at it, I see how things are constructed.

I would love to be a musician.

I'd love to be like Stan.

Yeah.

Now, your book has some really cracker anecdotes, but it also has some really interesting insights you suggest.

Said your life is boring.

My God, it's.

Not boring because the world's not boring.

Yes, I am boring.

Well, I'm almost irrelevant to the story.

Well, what I found really interesting was the the stories of your childhood, which was like you both parents were, um, keen surfers, moved around a bit, were pretty nomadic.

They spent time in South Africa, um, and Hawaii before returning to Australia.

Has that sort of forged your own kind of restlessness, do you think as an, as a as an adult?

Look, for the travelling component.

Yes, because I'm never happier than when I'm travelling.

Um, especially to new places or places I haven't been before.

To places that are so culturally different languages and food that, you know, I haven't heard or tried before.

I'm very happy in that kind of an environment.

Um, I hate this idea of being anchored to a place, and obviously that was because of my childhood, and, uh, I enjoyed that childhood.

There are many other people that may not enjoy such freedom, if you like.

Um, yeah, I just I love to experience new things.

And so.

Yeah, that, that kind of the, the beginning that my mother and father gave to me, um, through traveling a lot and experiencing very different cultures, um, is something that has stayed with me and I would never want to change.

There's some some beautiful passages about your dad.

You were pretty close to him.

Yeah, I think close might not be the right word because we hardly ever saw him.

Um, but the moments that I did spend with him, uh, I think we are attuned in the way we think about things.

Uh, and you know what I remember about my dad a lot of times is some, some incredible thing would happen or something that most other people would get really worked up or stressed about.

And, and he'd just laugh at the absurdity of it, you know, and, and how are we going to get out of this situation?

Um, and so I very much think the way he thought.

And I have a younger sister, she's four years younger, and she very much thinks the way my mother thinks, which is much more about, oh my God, how are we going to get out of this?

Um, and, you know, the, the sort of the nuts and bolts and probably feeling much more, um, content Intent by being rooted in a place and knowing there are foundations underneath you.

Whereas my father and I are not like that.

There was some nice moment in the book where you talk about your mum and her commenting on your, um, trademark calmness.

As a child, that you weren't sort of prone to displays of emotion or histrionics as some kids are.

Um, and that's a pretty good trait for a journalist, isn't it?

Oh, I think so, because I think and, you know, there's lots of different forms of journalism and there's lots of different types of journalists.

And the market decides which type of journalism they like.

But the particular type of journalism that I'm interested in is very much the observer role and, and non-judgment.

I mean, we all bring judgment because we all have our own experiences and we all come from certain cultures and we have our certain beliefs about what's right and wrong, but to be able to tell a story without necessarily judging what is happening, but trying to understand from that point of view, you know, walk a mile in my shoes kind of scenario.

Uh, so that the people who are consuming it, reading it, hearing it, can sit back and think, okay, can I get a total picture from this story that is being told by this journalist?

And now I'm free to make up my own mind, because I feel like I've been given more of the information and more of the detail, and I feel like I understand the complexity more.

That's the type of journalism I like and I've tried to do.

Now, for a journalist who doesn't like to be part of the story, you went through a challenging time when when you and Stan were first together at both a channel seven and, um, there was, uh, a little bit of, um.

Angst.

Angst is the word.

Thank you so much.

That's the word I'm looking for angst, particularly from network brass.

When you moved in together, it seems extraordinary.

Looking back, this was during the Olympics in 2000.

Um, what was that?

What was that like?

Becoming the subject, becoming a media, uh, piece of media fodder, basically.

Well, the way I looked at it was, you know, there were plenty of people who have worked in the media before and after, who have had marriage breakdowns, uh, who have moved in with other people who have started new relationships.

And none of them had to go through what we went through.

And so being, you know, removed from my own life somewhat and observing it the same as I'd observe any other story.

Uh, the observation I made was that there was one difference here, and that is Stan is black and I am white.

And, you know, I think that story still resonates in this country, which is kind of odd to me.

Um, I thought we had moved beyond that.

Um, and I thought that, you know, while there is much more acceptance of, of mixed marriages and I think that's, um, you know, care of a change in our immigration policy, which was once rooted in, you know, the White Australia policy, those things have sort of changed and the edges have worn down.

But still, at the heart, there exists this thing where people are judged differently because of the color of their skin.

And Stan and I were somewhat of an anomaly.

Not the only ones, you know.

Of course, there were other mixed marriages, but, um, yeah, it really kind of captured a particular part of society.

Uh, even one newspaper running a poll.

Do you support Stan and Tracy see living together.

I mean, what is that?

You know, do we support anyone living together?

How would we know?

Yes.

How awful.

Um, so how do you see the state of of racism in Australian sport?

Do you things have changed in the last 20 or 25 years?

And, you know, long overdue.

But, you know, you know, people like Adam Goodes have, um, have taken a very brave stand.

Have they made a difference?

Um, you know, I think what I said previously that the edges have softened, but there's still this thing that exists, and we cannot go a season without there being a racist, uh, you know, incident or 2 or 3 or a dozen in AFL.

Um, they're not the only ones.

Of course.

It's not the only sport, but Adam Goodes, who who called it out, um, so graciously, to be honest, you know, if you watch his documentary, The Australian Dream.

It was great, wasn't it?

He's so gracious.

But the the cost of that is that he was lost to the sport forever gone.

You know, there are other names Joel Wilkinson from AFL Heritier Lumumba in netball.

Donnell Wallam, who was one of the greatest goal shooters in the country and cannot get a contract in the netball league.

So she's gone to play in New Zealand because she dared call out or not even call out, she said in a player meeting.

I'm really uncomfortable wearing this name.

Hancock, which was the sponsor of the netball diamonds at the time, because, you know, this was the man who said he'd like to wipe out her people.

Um, and for daring to do that, netball lost their sponsorship from Gina Rinehart, and, um, Danelle became a marked person from then on.

But look, if you don't mind.

I just want to read you something that, um.

Heritier Lumumba wrote in an opinion piece fairly recently because he's left Australia to kind of lost to the game and our annals of history.

And, uh, he's living in the US, and he was talking about one of the latest racist incidents here concerning, um, Willie Rioli, and he was talking about in the US that there'd be consequences for racist behaviour.

And this is what he wrote, and it wouldn't stop there.

A wave of journalists, ex-players and cultural commentators, many of them black, would drag him through the mud.

Name it for what it is and happily pressure and and apply pressure.

The players association and league would act swiftly to call it what it is racist.

But in Australia we get panels of white commentators, white board members, white ex-players, white coaches sitting around confused, debating whether or not it was racist, whether the player meant it that way, whether it was just cultural insensitivity.

And I thought he really nailed it.

And that still exists.

He certainly does.

The lines between America and Australia, um, are interesting when you when you describe it in that, in that form, because you kind of think of the United States being fairly racist country and particularly with political changes in recent times, but that, as you say, that nails it, doesn't it?

Yeah, it really does.

Remarkable.

There's something no, we haven't kind of drawn a line in the sand enough, do you think?

I think I don't know if it's like drawing a line in the sand, because I kind of, I don't think in those sort of linear ways because it's too easy then to to discriminate yourself and to judge, you know, sometimes people just need to be taken on a journey a bit more.

So it's a bit circular.

They need a bit of understanding.

Many people will tell you, you know, I'm not a racist.

But then they do something that that is racist because I don't think they even know what it is.

And so I think that depth of discussion and understanding is probably still lacking.

You've interviewed so many sporting greats, some I love the story about the legendary Pele and how you set up an interview with him.

Can you walk us through that?

Well, how long have you got?

I'll do the mini version.

The condensed version?

Yes, please.

Look, I heard he was coming.

Um, I'd spent some time in Brazil.

I'd even spent some time in Santos, which is the town where he was from.

Uh, you know, he was a poor man, um, a poor boy who had exceptional footballing skills, played for Santos, went on to play multiple World Cups for Brazil and became a legend.

And, um, he was coming to Australia because he'd released this two volume series and it had all sorts of, you know, all his stories.

It had newspaper clippings.

It was just wonderful.

It was like an encyclopedic version of his life.

And I thought, oh, I really want to interview him.

I was doing grandstand at the ABC at the time, and, uh, I found the number of the woman who was sort of promoting his tour and she said, oh, no, it's all it's all done.

He's all booked up.

There's no room anywhere.

Then I saw that he was going to be speaking at a function in western Sydney, and then he had to get back into town for another function.

And I thought, okay, that's like an hour trip that he's going to have to make.

I presume he's going to be in a car.

So I rang up the woman again.

I said, look, um, you know, I'd like to go on that car ride with him because I could do the interview in the car like stupid ideas that I have and just put out there.

Great idea.

Anyway, she said, look, I'll need to check.

I'll call you back.

And I didn't really think I'd hear back from her.

She called back and said, all I can suggest is turn up at Western Sydney and we'll see what we can do.

Anyway, I turned up at Western Sydney.

I got in the car with Pele and I had an hour to interview Pele and we had the greatest conversation.

I even got him to sing one of the songs off a little known album that he'd recorded that I knew existed in Brazil.

Uh, yeah.

So it was a lot of fun and, um, and really interesting, you know, tapping into someone who came from less than working class and becomes an absolute megastar.

You know, one of the few people in the world who everyone in the world can identify by a single name, just Pele.

And, uh, how he dealt with that.

And that was really challenging because everyone wanted a part of him.

And, you know, governments came and went that were good and bad in his country, and they all wanted a part of him.

And he was supposed to support all of that.

And then he was criticized for not supporting, you know, uprisings of people who demanded more.

Just the challenges that an ordinary person faces because of extraordinary sporting talent.

What was lovely about that, that interview, too, is that he remembered you.

And on another later visit to Australia, he, um.

Didn't he invite you to dinner?

Well, I was sitting at the ABC one day.

It was a few years later and my phone rang.

I picked it up and this voice said, hello.

Uh, I work for Pele magazine, and we're just sort of garnering opinions on people who have interviewed him in the past.

And so I know you interviewed him in the past.

I was wondering, what did you think about him?

And I thought, no, I know this voice.

And I said, Pele, that's you.

And he laughed and his laugh is pretty well known.

So it was really nice to hear that.

He said, look, I'm coming back to Australia.

No fuss.

I don't want any fuss.

But why don't you invite a few friends and we'll go and have dinner in Manly Park somewhere you like, and, uh, And, you know, no media, no nothing.

Let's just have a nice time.

And we did.

And I think because we had such a lovely chat in the back of the car, and it was a way of him being able to be Pele the person, not Pele the legend.

And, uh, yeah.

So we had a lovely dinner with a few friends.

Um, it was very nice.

So how do you do that?

As as a journalist.

How do you put people at such ease?

Um, there's a story that's not in my book that people have reminded me.

Maybe you should have put that in.

And it was about, um, meeting George Harrison, and I didn't even know who he was.

I mean, I knew the Beatles.

I knew George Harrison was part of.

Beatle George Harrison was.

I didn't recognize him.

He was sitting opposite me at a dinner table, um, at a at a dinner with some people from the Formula One Grand Prix in Adelaide.

One year.

And I think at first he he was shocked and thought I was pulling his leg, that I didn't know it was him because I was just talking to him like a normal person.

And then I think about half an hour later, it sort of clicked with him.

Actually, no, she really didn't know who I was.

Wow.

I might have found the only person on the planet that didn't recognize me.

And he's not treating me like George Harrison, the Beatle, but just chatting with me.

An ordinary person.

Yeah.

And I think I think that's just the key.

Like people often say to me, um, who are you in awe of?

I've never been in awe of anybody.

I don't think, um, because people are people, you know, we all hurt the same way.

We all love the same way.

We're all confused the same way, and we all just try to make a life the same way.

And if you can tap into that, you're going to get something that's really raw and special and unique, and that tells you more about the person than any headline or legend status.

Warmth is important, though, isn't it?

And you're clearly a warm person.

I got that sense, even just in the short conversation we had before we came into the studio.

There's a lovely anecdote in the book about, um, your meeting Stan, or seeing Stan for the first time.

And, um, just just describe that for us.

I was sitting at the outside, um, tables at the channel seven canteen, and I was having a sandwich with, uh, one of the producers for the games programme I was working on.

This was ahead of Sydney 2000 Olympics.

Anyway, Stan, I could see him coming out of the canteen, walking down the stairs.

And I said to the girl I was with again, you know, because I'm never sure of identities.

Oh, that's Stan Grant, isn't it?

And she said, yeah, yeah it is.

And I went, no, he's pretty good looking, isn't he?

And um, like just an observation.

And she went, oh yeah, he is.

So as he kind of walked near us, I said, hey Stan.

And this poor producer, she's like, oh no, don't, don't.

I said, we've just voted you the best looking guy at channel seven.

And he was so totally embarrassed.

And he was like, oh, thanks.

and wandered off with his little bag of lunch.

And that was it.

Um, and then it was like a couple of months later, I got an email saying, oh, you've got to go down and get some publicity shots, because we're sending you to Olympia for the lighting of the torch, for the torch relay that was going to go around the world and come to Sydney.

And, um, you know, publicity shots.

2 p.m.

Thursday.

So I rock up 2 p.m.

Thursday.

And there was Stan again, and I didn't realise they were sending him as well.

So we had to have photos taken together.

Um, so the only conversation we'd ever had was that short exchange at the canteen.

We have these photos taken.

Again, that was it.

Um, publicity shots are sent out everywhere.

And then when we went on the trip, Stan made sure he was sitting by himself on the plane somewhere, not with the rest of the channel seven team.

And there was quite a few of us, and we had a stopover in Rome, I think.

And, um, I went over.

He was always reading books, and he still does this.

He He travels with a shoulder bag that I swear weighs an absolute ton.

And he's reading 10 or 12 books all at once at the same time.

Anyway, I went over and I said, what?

What are you reading?

And he said, oh, well, this and this and this and this and that started a conversation, uh, which we continue through to today, 25 years later.

Isn't that fantastic?

And he's such a reader.

He's got all those books.

Oh my God, our bed is surrounded by books.

Our our our house is full of books.

His library's got about 10,000 books.

Like, it's just books.

Books?

Fantastic.

That restores my faith in humanity.

When I hear about books in this digital age or journalism.

Now I have to ask you, a veteran sports reporter.

Um, surely there must be a sport that bores.

Bores you to tears, is there?

Is there one?

No.

And I need to pull you up because the working title on my book at the start was do not call me a sports reporter.

Oh.

My apologies.

No, that's all right.

And you know, everyone does.

Um, but I've never seen myself as a sports reporter because I don't actually care about the half time speech or what the result is, or who's been injured and who's coming in to replace who.

And, you know, that's never, ever been my interest.

My interest has always been the humanity that is played out, those psychological interactions between team members, coaching, administration, you know, the legend, status of sport, the position it occupies in diplomacy, um, the politics, it's all this other stuff.

So it's everything about the world that that makes the world function.

Sometimes at great, sometimes it's in sync.

That's what's being played out in a sporting contest.

And so that's what I'm looking at.

It's like, what is that moment, that essence telling us about the place that these people came from, um, their desire to achieve.

What drives them?

What's important to them?

Um, yeah.

So it's it's all of that.

Yeah.

So nothing bores me because it's all about humanity.

And it doesn't matter what they're playing.

There's a psychological driver there.

There's a cultural background.

You know, there are beliefs and challenges and.

Yeah, it's everything.

It's fascinating when you describe it in that way.

I sort of get your trademark because you are very different.

You you've carved out your own style, haven't you?

Yes.

Uh, yeah, I think so, yeah.

So, Cathy Freeman, tell me about what it was like.

Um, going back, we'll go back to the Olympics 2000, the, um, 400 meter her race that unforgettable moment.

You're in the stadium at the time.

I was, but it kind of goes back before then.

So, um, again, we were doing the Olympic game show at seven and, uh, that the stadium had just been completed and no one had been in it, but we'd been covering it, you know, through the development and going in there with our hard hats and, you know, high vis vests and what have you.

Anyway, they were going to open it, and we had the first kind of look at the venue.

So what we'd organised to do was to get Cathy into the arena, onto the track, to do an interview.

And I started thinking about how, how can we make this different?

How can this be a real moment for Cathy?

And what we did was there were two massive screens, as you know, that were at either end of the venue, and we organised for her, um, run from the World Championships, and she'd become the world champion.

And we thought, we're not going to tell her this, we're just going to say we're going to do an interview down on the track, and you'll get to see the stadium for the first time and imagine what it's going to be like on the night that you run.

So we walk down through the tunnel and we're just chatting and we're miked up.

And the cameraman was filming, and as we emerged from the tunnel, they hit play.

And the sound of her, the crowd cheering and her running and this vision of her at the World Championships when she got the gold was just echoing around this empty stadium.

And she she looked up and saw it.

And you knew that she was back in that moment, and she just sunk down to her knees.

And you could just sense that she's thinking, that's what I did at the World Championships.

Next, I'm going to be here, and this stadium is going to be full of people supporting me.

And I'm getting chills talking about it now.

I'm getting chills listening to it, to be honest.

Wow, what a moment.

Oh, it was such a moment and it was so wonderful.

And I think it could have gone horribly wrong, but I'm so glad it didn't because that made her comfortable in that arena.

She'd already been in that arena.

She'd channeled herself running the event at a time to come, full of people supporting her.

So when it happened on the night, oh my gosh, you know, that sort of the wave, you could follow the wave of energy as she ran around the track.

And I know as she passed us where we were sitting, it was just like it was like everybody had become one and everybody was in her feet, you know, pumping those legs.

Just get to the finish line.

And she did.

She got to the finish line.

And as you'll recall, she slumped down again.

And it was like watching history repeat, because that's how she slumped down the first time when we took her into the empty stadium.

And what a moment, what a moment for her and for this country.

And I think for for the world, because the world watched that.

they knew Cathy Freeman because she lit the cauldron.

Everyone talks about Cathy Freeman, the Matildas of today.

Talk about that moment being their inspiration to become Matildas, to become champion female athletes.

It was an incredible moment.

She's a remarkable woman.

More broadly, I'm interested in what fame does to people, um, at that kind of elite level of sport.

And you've seen the trajectories of, of a lot of sports careers.

Does it, um, does it change people?

I think at their heart, no.

But how they deal with it means they build all sorts of, you know, mechanisms just to be able to cope.

And so some love it.

And it depends on personality types, doesn't it.

You know, and, and what's important to them whether they're religious or not, whether they're political beings or not, um, whether they're loners or not.

So they, they all build a kind of wall around them.

And so sometimes what you see out front is not what you're going to see behind.

Um, other times you can't separate the two.

So again, it comes back to how people deal with this.

And, um, you know, what sort of impact it has on their lives.

I remember when Stan and I were going through what we were going through with the media, just obsessed with us and, you know, photographers climbing over our neighbor's fence to try and get photos inside our house.

And we got run off the road at one point.

And, um, I went down one morning, I was making the boys lunches, and, uh, we ran out of bread like 6:00 in the morning, 615.

So I went down to the petrol station and a pair of trackie pants on Sloppy Joe bare feet, walked in and bought a loaf of bread, came back, and this bloke jumps out from behind one of the petrol bowsers to take a photo of me and that appears on the paper.

You know, later on in the afternoon.

And I remember saying to Stan, what the hell?

Like, what does this mean?

And he goes, well, it doesn't mean anything.

Like we're still the same.

We just live our lives.

And if that's what they want to do, let them do it.

And I thought, oh my gosh, he's so good at just going to hell with you.

I am who I am, and this is who we are.

So take photos till the cows come home if you like.

But nothing's changing from our side.

And I think that's pretty difficult to do.

But it's a mindset.

And so some athletes who, you know, have just incredible fame, global fame, how they deal with it.

Um, very much depends on the mindset and their personality type and, you know, their own personal convictions.

Well, Tracy, it's fascinating talking to you.

And we could talk for hours, but, um, I'd just like to sort of finish up.

Is there one person you've interviewed you've got to know, and they don't necessarily have to be famous who have left a mark for you.

Somebody who, um, you'll you'll never forget.

Many have.

And I always hope to take something away from all of them.

So, you know, um, Arthur Ashe, who was the first black man to win Wimbledon, um, in the 1970s.

American man.

Uh, he had such grace.

And I interviewed him just before he died of Aids, which came from a blood transfusion when he was having a heart, having heart surgery.

And it was just tragic.

And I remember saying to him, do you ever ask yourself, why me?

And he said, no, I don't, because if it wasn't me, it'd be someone else.

And I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

And the thing he was looking forward to most was hopefully seeing his daughter's next birthday, and she was under ten at the time.

It was like, oh gosh, if only we could all have that level of grace.

But but there are other things too, you know, people stand out for different reasons.

Um, perspective.

Chilavert was the captain of the Paraguay team at the 1998 FIFA World Cup, and I was there with SBS and I went to a press conference and he was sitting there and, you know, the room was packed with people.

And, uh, someone asked the question about, you know, oh, how do you feel?

Like, you know, the team's doing so well.

What about the pressure?

He was eating an apple at the time, and he was known for his volatility.

And he kind of threw the apple.

And he just stared at this journalist and he said, pressure, pressure.

I'll tell you what pressure is.

Pressure is not having the money to pay for food to put on the table for your family at night.

Don't talk to me about pressure when we're here playing a game.

And I thought, oh my God, that's just changed the whole perspective of the World Cup.

But I really have to tell you about two Afghan women who fled the Taliban in 2021.

One lives in Australia.

One lives in France.

One is a cricketer.

And her name is Firuza Afghan.

She's just so phenomenally strong.

And so is Zaki Khudadad, who's a Paralympic taekwondo athlete, the one who lives in France.

And I'll just give you this little snapshot of Zakia.

She.

When the Taliban came in, she was waiting to get a flight to Paris, to Tokyo for the Paralympics.

And it looked like her dream was going to be over before it even began.

She sent out a social media video while she was in hiding in Kabul, saying, listen here, you people, you West, that came in here to teach us that we could be strong, that women could have a role in society, that women could play sport.

Now you're just abandoning us.

Well, I'm saying don't abandon us.

Help me.

I want to live my dream.

Get me to the Paralympics.

And I couldn't believe this tiny little human being who was just so strong.

Anyway, she.

She got out, she got onto a plane, she got to the Paralympics and competed.

But most recently, I caught up with her at the Paris just before the Paris Paralympics in 24.

And she was a member of the Paralympic International Paralympic Refugee team.

She won a bronze medal and she still just so gutsy and fighting and adamant.

And now she wants to get to the next Olympics and to Brisbane 2032.

And she wants to go from bronze to gold, not for her, but for the plight of the women in Afghanistan.

She's just amazing.

What a human being.

Tracey, thank you so much for our chat today.

It's been a real treat.

Loved your book.

Thank you so much.

Pleasure to be here.

That was veteran sports broadcaster and now memoirist Tracy Lee Holmes.

In conversation with deputy editor Greg Callahan on the latest Good Weekend talks.

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